ffdshow tryouts project: Discussion & Development

[oddball]

Strange resizing bug when resizing is set to 16 by 9. I get these flickering line distortions down the sides on these encodes. A different encode from a different subbing group does not exhibit this issue.

Occurs with all recent builds.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/deadman3000/gg_Toradora_-_01_E2AF98B516-31-35.jpg

[_xxl]

Did you get the latest binary of pthread by MinGW 64 project?
The touble is that it doesn't work properly.
No, I use my own compiled version. I had to modify pthreads source code to compile with MinGW GCC 64.

[jos99]

Sure, here is a 10MB sample of BBC HD, a 5MB sample of Luxe HD. The line of distortion is slightly wider in BBC HD than Luxe.
Thanks. Haali's media splitter is OK, but MPC's splitter is not.
Anyway ffdshow (or ffmpeg-mt) is to be blamed.
Did you mean to say ffdshow/ffmpeg is not to be blamed? I get the distortion with ffdshow mt in DVBViewer, it is not there with normal ffdshow + DVBViewer or playing the file in MPC-HC using DXVA.

[Inventive Software]

What makes you so sure it's "bigger than it ought to be"?

Loop unrolling as an optimization technique does exactly that - it duplicates code so the CPU needs to do fewer conditional jumps (which cost performance) at the expense of, well, more generated code. Maybe the old DLL just wasn't optimized that much?

Also, what happens if you copy the old DLL into ffdshow's installation directory after installing a recent build?

(By the way - is it possible the bigger DLL was compiled with ICL, but not patched to fix Intel's CPU ID check? That would explain why it would run like molasses on AMD hardware...)

Copying the older DLL means it works absolutely fine with no slowdowns; there's no dependencies on anything AFAICT.

@clsid: Downloaded 2588, I'll give it a try and report back tomorrow.

[Nazgulled]

Hi,

I just wanted to know if ffdshow is good enough to play DVDs, either as decoder for video and/or audio or do you recommend something else?

[Leak]

I just wanted to know if ffdshow is good enough to play DVDs, either as decoder for video and/or audio or do you recommend something else?
Uh... why WOULDN'T it be?

Anyway, I've almost exclusively been using it in conjunction with Media Player Classic for playing DVDs the last few years...

np: She & Him - Why Do You Let Me Stay Here (Volume One)

[Nazgulled]

Well, how does it compare with Cyberlink's decoders for instance? Everyone seems to say that Cyberlink's MPEG2 decoder has much better picture quality and allows hardware acceleration? And that's I'm wondering, how does ffdshow compare. I'm not simply asking if it plays MPEG2 files, I just want to know how good it is compared to Cyberlink's decoders for instance (which seems to be the best commercial one). Does ffdshow have better picture quality or worse? Does it use hardware acceleration or not? Is there something else that Cyberlink's decoders does that ffdshow can't or vice-verse?

[tetsuo55]

DVD playback is problematic.

There have been somw fixes lately

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=143818

[Nazgulled]

So, you don't recommend ffdshow or what?

[tetsuo55]

It's not ready for daily use yet, but very close.

I recommend you DO use it and report bugs here when you run into them.

[Nazgulled]

Well, I'm actually using CCCP, I'm not sure it uses ffdshow tryouts but I think it does. Still, I won't always have the latest version like this. And besides, I don't watch that many DVDs, but sure, I'll report anything if I find anything out of the ordinary...

[Snowknight26]

It's normally best to have the latest version when doing bug finding/reports.

[Hypernova]

Hi. I hope this is the right place to ask.

I am using the builts from xvidvideo.ru. The problem I have is this: when I set ffdshow-mt to resize video to over ~2050 x (something), the player (I tested with every renderer from MPC-HC and WMP) always freeze. This does not occur with the non-mt built (neither x86 nor x64). Only the mt built can keep up with 1080p h264 for my machine, so I hope someone could help me with this.

My setting:
C2D E6550, 2g ram, ATi2600Pro, Windows 7 Beta x64 (yeah I know, but I really doubt this is the cause. I didn't test with any other OS though.)

[haruhiko_yamagata]

Well, how does it compare with Cyberlink's decoders for instance?I admit that Cyberlink's is better for most users. But does it decode DVD in media player classic? You need alternative MPEG-2 video decoder.

Everyone seems to say that Cyberlink's MPEG2 decoder has much better picture qualityThis doesn't seem to be true.
ffdshow doesn't use hardware acceleration.

Is there something else that Cyberlink's decoders does that ffdshow can't or vice-verse?I don't know how well Cyberlink's decoder handle closed caption. ffdshow handles it quite well.

[haruhiko_yamagata]

A little request:

I've just spent an hour digging through this thread to understand what is meant exactly with the "contrast" adjustments in the "RGB conversion" tab.
Why don't you press help button of the dialog page ;)

I find the names not very intuitive.
Anyway users have to have more than instinct to play with this option.

While "Full range" doesn't stretch, instead black gets the value 16 and white the value 235. Right?I think you are really confused. The dialog say "Full range ( Y: 0-255...".
"Y" means the input level.

Also the name "contrast" doesn't really fit. It suggests some automatic intelligent image contrast enhancement algorithm. I'd suggest "Levels" instead of "Contrast".
"Level" or "Contrast": As I'm Japanese, I don't know which is intuitive for English speaking people.

[haruhiko_yamagata]

Hi. I hope this is the right place to ask.

I am using the builts from xvidvideo.ru. The problem I have is this: when I set ffdshow-mt to resize video to over ~2050 x (something), the player (I tested with every renderer from MPC-HC and WMP) always freeze. This does not occur with the non-mt built (neither x86 nor x64). Only the mt built can keep up with 1080p h264 for my machine, so I hope someone could help me with this.

My setting:
C2D E6550, 2g ram, ATi2600Pro, Windows 7 Beta x64 (yeah I know, but I really doubt this is the cause. I didn't test with any other OS though.)
Why do you have to resize over 2050? It's not supported. Should be checked though.

[leeperry]

DVD playback is problematic.

There have been some fixes lately

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=143818
I'm personally having problems with deinterlacing PAL/NTSC DVD's, apparently YADIF is your best option...but only in "double frame rate" mode...which I can't afford as it outputs 48 fps, and I got a big AVS script running that can't process so many frames :o

I use Gabest's MPEG2 decoder in YV12 btw.

[tetsuo55]

Why don't you press help button of the dialog page ;)

Anyway users have to have more than instinct to play with this option.
I think you are really confused. The dialog say "Full range ( Y: 0-255...".
"Y" means the input level.

"Level" or "Contrast": As I'm Japanese, I don't know which is intuitive for English speaking people.

the correct term is: "Luminance Range"
The values between blackest black and whitest white.

the current expansion method is flawed in several ways, i'm still thinking about a way to fix it.
According to the mpeg2 specification you can use almost every value between 0-255 and some samples do.
the spec also allows for different ranges for Chroma and Luma to make things even worse.

When i have more and better information about it i will start a new thread as it is very closely related to gamut and RGB conversion

[madshi]

Why don't you press help button of the dialog page ;)
Just did. And I have to say that the help is plain and simple incorrect.

Anyway users have to have more than instinct to play with this option.
Sure. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make the options as intuitive as possible, right?

I think you are really confused. The dialog say "Full range ( Y: 0-255...".
"Y" means the input level.
Look, the situation is this:

(1) Either you have a display which wants to have PC levels (typically a computer monitor).
(2) Or you have a display which wants to have video levels (typically a TV or projector).

Depending on (1) or (2) the *only* correct way to convert YCbCr to RGB is to define "black" to be at either "0" or "16".

The current ffdshow logic and also the help seems to believe that all displays want to have PC levels. But that's simply not true. E.g. the help says:

> Some video clips have Y-values below 16 which
> represent "blacker" than black. If you want to take
> advantage of this gradation at the expense of
> contrast, use full range or custom mode.

With a computer monitor it is true that using the current "full range" option results in loss of contrast. But this is *NOT* true for a TV or projector which expects video levels. Actually, with a typical TV or projector using "full range" is the only option which produces correct results. Using "standard" with a typical TV or projector means that a lot of shadow detail and white detail is clipped away.

And it doesn't matter at all whether we're talking about a typical movie (which usually has no BTB and WTW information) or about a calibration disc (which usually has BTB and WTW information). With a typical TV or projector you always have to use the current "full range" option, or else shadow details is lost, because a properly calibrated TV/projector will not show any RGB values below 16 (or 15). So if you're using "standard" with a properly calibrated TV/projector, you're losing *15* steps of shadow detail with any DVD, broadcast or Blu-Ray!

[madshi]

Anyway users have to have more than instinct to play with this option.
I've just thought about it and I think we can easily rename the options in such a way that most users will know exactly which option is the right one for them to use. Just change the whole "Contrast" section to this:

Which kind of display do you have?

(1) Computer Monitor.
(2) TV / projector.

That's really all that is needed. Option (1) would do the same that the current "Standard" option does. And option (2) would do the same that the current "Full range" option does.

Maybe it would make sense to offer the possibility to define the type of display for every monitor? E.g. in my case my "monitor 1" is a "Computer Monitor" type display, which wants to have black sent as RGB(0, 0, 0), while my "monitor 2" is my plasma display which wants to have black sent as RGB(16, 16, 16)". So if ffdshow offered an option to define which monitor is which type, it could automatically adjust the RGB conversion correctly, depending on which monitor the video is currently being displayed at.

[Leak]

Well, how does it compare with Cyberlink's decoders for instance? Everyone seems to say that Cyberlink's MPEG2 decoder has much better picture quality and allows hardware acceleration? And that's I'm wondering, how does ffdshow compare. I'm not simply asking if it plays MPEG2 files, I just want to know how good it is compared to Cyberlink's decoders for instance (which seems to be the best commercial one). Does ffdshow have better picture quality or worse? Does it use hardware acceleration or not? Is there something else that Cyberlink's decoders does that ffdshow can't or vice-verse?
I've never used PowerDVD, but how is hardware acceleration for DVD decoding even a big deal anymore? Any of todays CPUs is more than capable to do it in software.

What PowerDVD (and hardware accelrated decoding in general) can't do is apply all the other filters ffdshow (and, in turn, AviSynth) supports to the image...

[haruhiko_yamagata]

Look, the situation is this:

(1) Either you have a display which wants to have PC levels (typically a computer monitor).
(2) Or you have a display which wants to have video levels (typically a TV or projector).
I understood why you are confusing.
The option does not define the monitor to output.
The option tells ffdshow type of input source.

[madshi]

I understood why you are confusing.
The option does not define the monitor to output.
The option tells ffdshow type of input source.
The GUI doesn't say anything about "input source type" anywhere. The help doesn't, either. Furthermore I think even if GUI and help did explain what the options meant it's still a bad idea to define the "input source type".

Let me give you a simple example:

(1) I want to play a Blu-Ray on my monitor 1 (20" Dell LCD monitor). This LCD wants to have black sent as RGB(0, 0, 0). The only way I can realize that with the current ffdshow version is to change the input source type to "standard".
(2) I want to play a Blu-Ray on my monitor 2 (50" Panasonic Plasma). This plasma wants to have black sent as RGB(16, 16, 16). The only way I can realize that with the current ffdshow version is to change the input source type to "full range".

Do you understand that this is really bad usability? I have to change the *input* source type to make ffdshow behave correctly, although the input doesn't change at all, but instead the monitor type has changed! That makes no sense at all from a usability standpoint.

I think we should drop the option to define source type. Instead we should define the monitor type. That is much more important, and much more intuitive.

[clsid]

The Cyberlink MPEG-2 decoder works fine in combination with MPC. Closed captions are handled by MPC or the native windows line21 decoder.

[haruhiko_yamagata]

(1) I want to play a Blu-Ray on my monitor 1 (20" Dell LCD monitor). This LCD wants to have black sent as RGB(0, 0, 0). The only way I can realize that with the current ffdshow version is to change the input source type to "standard".
(2) I want to play a Blu-Ray on my monitor 2 (50" Panasonic Plasma). This plasma wants to have black sent as RGB(16, 16, 16). The only way I can realize that with the current ffdshow version is to change the input source type to "full range".

No display takes RGB(16,16,16) as black, as far as I know.
Are you sure about this?

[STaRGaZeR]

The only problem I see here is that using input levels as reference to decide which option one should use, this is not optimal and has never been done that way in every other application I know of. That page is about what ffdshow outputs, not what the input is. This situation would be solved simply by changing the options name from Standard to Full range and viceversa, and specifying you're now setting the output instead of the input. You know your monitor uses 0-255, so you should be able to go to the RGB conversion tab and directly select output 0-255, instead of input 16-235, to transmit 0-255 to the monitor. Don't you agree?

[haruhiko_yamagata]

The only problem I see here is that using input levels as reference to decide which option one should use, this is not optimal and has never been done that way in every other application I know of.
As far as correct option is selected, the output level is always 0-255, full.
What else should I use other than input?
That page is about what ffdshow outputs, not what the input is.
That page is how RGB conversion is done, including RGB->YUV conversion.

This situation would be solved simply by changing the options name from Standard to Full range and viceversa, and specifying you're now setting the output instead of the input. You know your monitor uses 0-255, so you should be able to go to the RGB conversion tab and directly select output 0-255, instead of input 16-235, to transmit 0-255 to the monitor. Don't you agree?
No.
Please note that we have talk a lot about this before.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1051116#post1051116

[tetsuo55]

Look, the situation is this:

(1) Either you have a display which wants to have PC levels (typically a computer monitor).
(2) Or you have a display which wants to have video levels (typically a TV or projector).

this is almost correct, there are a lot of TV/projectors now that allow for "full luminance range". Usually you have a setting in the menu to enable/disable it.

What makes it worse is that every manufacturer has made up a different name for it..

For accurate display purposes ffdshow should ask:
1. My display expects Full luminance range (0-255) * typically PC monitors
2. My display expects Limited Luminance range (16-235) * Typically TV's and Projectors

Besides these 2 there is also the discussion on how to handle the input luminance range (which could be anything between 0-16 to 235-255 and different in both luma and chroma)

Currently the default convert 16-235 to 0-255 clips any data in the 1-15 and 235-255 range

[haruhiko_yamagata]

For accurate display purposes ffdshow should ask:
1. My display expects Full luminance range (0-255) * typically PC monitors
2. My display expects Limited Luminance range (16-235) * Typically TV's and Projectors
It's the level filter...
If you output YV12, this is valid.

That page is not supposed to do this. It converts to RGB. RGB is always 0-255.

By the way, is anyone willing to write for the wiki, in the Levels (http://ffdshow-tryout.wiki.sourceforge.net/Levels) page?

[rack04]

Let me give you a simple example:

(1) I want to play a Blu-Ray on my monitor 1 (20" Dell LCD monitor). This LCD wants to have black sent as RGB(0, 0, 0). The only way I can realize that with the current ffdshow version is to change the input source type to "standard".
(2) I want to play a Blu-Ray on my monitor 2 (50" Panasonic Plasma). This plasma wants to have black sent as RGB(16, 16, 16). The only way I can realize that with the current ffdshow version is to change the input source type to "full range".

In case (1) why wouldn't you set to "Full Range". Wouldn't that give you RGC(0,0,0). Maybe I'm just another example of someone that is completely lost with these settings.

[DigitalDeviant]

I've never used PowerDVD, but how is hardware acceleration for DVD decoding even a big deal anymore? Any of todays CPUs is more than capable to do it in software.

What PowerDVD (and hardware accelrated decoding in general) can't do is apply all the other filters ffdshow (and, in turn, AviSynth) supports to the image...

If you needed to you could still use ffdshow's raw video processing after CL since, as you say, hardware acceleration is pointless for DVD. My question is, is it possible for ffdshow to pass on the interlace flag because hardware deinterlacing isn't quite as pointless?

[haruhiko_yamagata]

@rack04, tetsuo55, STaRGaZeR
If you output YV12 (or any YUV formats) to the display, some may take 16-235 and others may take 0-255.
That page is not supposed to handle this.

If you output RGB, all the displays take 0-255.
That page defines how ffdshow should do YUV <-> RGB conversion.

[leeperry]

If you output RGB, all the displays take 0-255.
not really.
some projectors accept RGB24 over TMDS, yet they only accept 16-235 video content....or you have to use their internal brightness/contrast settings to revert from PC to TV levels.

in that case, the best option is to leave ffdshow to "full range" so you output 16-235 RGB32 :o

[haruhiko_yamagata]

Oh seems to play ok in ffdshow 2537 but not in ffdshow-mt 2548 from xvidvideo.ru could someone involved with ffdshow-mt take a look at it (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mvjnmva5kmn)?
I have fixed at rev 2600.

[haruhiko_yamagata]

not really.
some projectors accept RGB24 over TMDS, yet they only accept 16-235 video content....or you have to use their internal brightness/contrast settings to revert from PC to TV levels.

in that case, the best option is to leave ffdshow to "full range" so you output 16-235 RGB32 :o
I can hardly believe this, but maybe true...
Anyway, that page is not designed to handle this issue. What is wrong is not ffdshow, that projectors...

yesgrey3, could you comment on this?

[haruhiko_yamagata]

Sure, here is a 10MB sample of BBC HD (http://rapidshare.com/files/180886722/01-08_00-18-38_BBC_HD__NAR__BBC_HD_Preview.ts), a 5MB sample of Luxe HD (http://rapidshare.com/files/180886723/01-08_00-33-37_Luxe_TV_HD_Shopping.ts). The line of distortion is slightly wider in BBC HD than Luxe.BBC's one works at rev 2598.
Luxe TV's sample, this is more difficult.
I guess MPC's splitter fails to parse access units (or send two or more access units at a time).
In that case, ffdshow has to parse access units to use ffmpeg-mt.

[Leak]

No display takes RGB(16,16,16) as black, as far as I know.
I'm pretty sure our 42" LG TV when connected via HDMI can be set to do this - that's more a "feature" (if you want to call it that) of home theater hardware than PC monitors...

np: Electric President - Good Morning, Hypocrite (Electric President)

[leeperry]

I can hardly believe this, but maybe true...
Anyway, that page is not designed to handle this issue. What is wrong is not ffdshow, that projectors...
well, at least for the Mitsubishi DLP projectors it's very much true :o

screenshot from the HC1100 user manual(identical to the HD1000/HC1500/HC1600) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/7/a/a/8d9920546229890662692ac3a0723.png

my HC3100 is a bit different, it works in 0-255 for 1280*768(computer resolution), but in 16-235 for 1280*720

actually, it might very well be mandatory for "HD Ready"/"HD1080p" official logo compliance to work in TV range for HD resolutions....regardless of RGB/YCbPr. it might also be the standard range for HDMI 1.0.

I think you should rename "full range" to "untouched levels" and "standard range" to "TV>PC levels conversion", "contrast/brightness" terms are fine as that's how they are called ;)

[Leak]

My question is, is it possible for ffdshow to pass on the interlace flag because hardware deinterlacing isn't quite as pointless?
If you check "Set interlace flag in output media type" it should, though you might have to force the colorspace to NV12 for the graphics card to do anything.

np: Electric President - Good Morning, Hypocrite (Electric President)

[madshi]

No display takes RGB(16,16,16) as black, as far as I know.
Are you sure about this?
I'm absolutely sure. Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rgb

Typically, RGB for digital video is not full range. Instead, video RGB uses a convention with scaling and offsets such that (16, 16, 16) is black, (235, 235, 235) is white, etc. For example, these scalings and offsets are used for the digital RGB definition in the CCIR 601 standard.

I think it can't be any clearer than this, can it?

There is "Studio RGB" and "Computer RGB". The first has black at "16, 16, 16", the latter has black at "0, 0, 0". The default for video is Studio RGB. Although some devices support both and offer an option to switch. E.g. both the PS3 and the Xbox360 can output either Studio RGB or Computer RGB. Also some Oppo and Denon DVD players support both. Also some Sony displays accept both. But when a TV/projector does not allow to choose between Studio RGB and Computer RGB, it usually wants Studio RGB. While a computer monitor usually wants Computer RGB.

And this all means that YCbCr -> RGB conversion absolutely needs a setting for whether output is supposed to be Studio RGB or Computer RGB. Or more intuitively, whether the display is a computer monitor or a TV/projector.

Also check out this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/denon-dvd-5910-dvd-player-4-2005-part-1.html

The digital set-up is another place to tweak in your DVI and HDMI configuration. This is where you’ll find the RGC mode set-up for DVI and HDMI which is very important. There are two settings for this, Normal and Enhanced. Normal sets the RBG of HDMI and DVI to Studio RGB levels (16-235). This allows for head and toe room in the digital gray scale, which gives you below-black and above-white data.

Video is referenced to a specific color balance when it is recorded. That reference happens to be an analog-based monitor made by Sony. Since the monitor is analog, it doesn’t have a hard clip point at pure black and white, so setting a hard clip point in the digital video domain won’t preserve the qualities of the reference. Studio RGB levels allow for this by setting black at digital 16 and white at digital 235 within the 0-255 digital spectrum. Enhanced mode uses PC RGB levels and moves the level of black to 0 and white to 255 and does not allow head or toe room for above white and below black information. This can easily be verified using test patterns on the Digital Video Essentials or AVIA Pro DVDs. We recommend always using the Studio RGB levels for video playback. That was how DVD was encoded and is the only way to properly display the material. However, there are some displays and projectors out there that are expecting PC RGB levels (Enhanced). Consult your owner’s manual or contact the manufacturing company for more information about your display’s setup.

[Mercury_22]

Is FLAC working for anybody ? Cause for me it's NOT working (tested with MPC-HC and oly MPC-HC's internal filter it's working FFD's is NOT working)

[clsid]

Are you trying to play a .flac file or is the audio stored in for example a Matroska file? ffdshow is only a decoder, it does not play .flac files, you need a source filter for that.

[STaRGaZeR]

Is FLAC working for anybody ? Cause for me it's NOT working (tested with MPC-HC and oly MPC-HC's internal filter it's working FFD's is NOT working)

You need a source filter, or mux FLAC in other containers. FLAC in MKV works OK with ffdshow.

EDIT: clsid beat me to it.

[Jong]

Sorry, I have not tested yet, because I don't have TheaterTek.Thank you for replying. There is a fully functional free trial on the TheaterTek site (http://www.theatertek.com/Products/original_tour.html). I am running on XP SP3 with VMR9.

With beta6 I just try to load the same DVD a few times. Normally within 5 attempts, certainly within 10, playback will start without video. TT says ffdshow video decoder is loaded (for post processing only), but the icon is not in systray, there is no video (black screen), but audio is fine.

[Inventive Software]

@clsid: tried your 2588 build, spotted the DLL's date on it, same size as the others, same problem. Replaced it with an older DLL built around March and it's fine. Is this what I gotta keep doing? What changed between then and now?

[clsid]

I will build it with GCC next time. Maybe that works for you.

[Inventive Software]

Don't know, can't remember what ffdshow said about the file! I think it says what built it and when, hang on 50 minutes... watching "The Closer". :D

[tetsuo55]

Thanks to the rec wikipedia articles i think i understand the whole luminance range issue better now.

!!EVERY display expects and accepts 0-255!!

The only difference is how it treats this signal:

-PC monitors and full-range TV's/Projectors treat 0 as reference black and 255 as reference white.
-Limit range TV's/Projectors clip 0 and 255(analog sync channels) and treat 16 as reference black , 235 as reference white for luma and 240 as reference white for chroma

This means that unless your display supports both limited and full range. Your reference black will be at either 0 or 16 and reference white at either 255 or 235/240

-------

Actions to take for both full and limited range displays:

calibrate the display to 16-235/240, the result is that the desktop will be clipped.
FFdshow would only have to compress 0-255 video to 16-235/240 and leave the rest alone(this means only pc-game videos need to be converted)

-------

In my specific case:
Compress everything the pc does from 0-255 to 16-135., Only when playing video content should the compression be disabled and the image output as-is

[Hypernova]

Why do you have to resize over 2050? It's not supported. Should be checked though.

Because my monitor is at 2560x1600, and I wante to have ffdshow handles the resizing instead of the GPU. Again, non-mt builts could resize to that resolution just fine. Only mt builts crashed the player.

[_xxl]

Looking at ff_kernelDeint_2008_icl11 I have that not all ICL release projects use same settings.
MSVC2003 + ICL:
http://i41.tinypic.com/52gqqo.jpg
MSVC2008 + ICL:
http://i39.tinypic.com/28872tz.jpg
Why was /Qip removed?