MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[SamuriHL]

Hm, you are right! :)

It happens from time to time. :D LMAO



Although I hoped that's not the case :)
I did a little testing (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-250.html#post58767112) as well, read it through.
I attached there the settings I use for now, let me know guys if you dislike something in it.


I'm still playing with the settings. Was hoping to get some time today to get some testing done but that didn't work out as planned. Those should be good, though.


Well, saturation setting doesn't do anything, again, with titles below 700 :)


Right, but, if there are elements in the frame that are above your real display nits, then the entire frame is processed. People tend to forget that part. For example, the tesseract in Infinity Wars. I can DEFINITELY see that being tone mapped as I mentioned to madshi. Even though the rest of the frame is well below 700 nits.


Btw, did you guys measure your C8 and adjust your real peak nits setting? Or do you still use 760?

I've been using 760. Time is not on my side these days. It's on my list of things to do.

[chros]

Right, but, if there are elements in the frame that are above your real display nits, then the entire frame is processed.
Yes, that's right, but I was talking about those titles/frames that are always below 700/760 nits.
Not to mention the final tonemapped nit value is modded by your settings (dynamic clipping, sky detection, etc.) so it can happen that even frames won't be modded if the resulting tonemapped nits is below 700/760.

I've been using 760. Time is not on my side these days. It's on my list of things to do.
:) It's "just" 30 mins, force yourself, you can dot it ... :)

[quietvoid]

I have not measured my C8, but 760 is consistently slightly brighter than 700 for demos, so I use that.

[tyguy]

I have a c9 and a geforce 2070 super on the way. Are there some good recommended settings for this tv with madvr? From what I gather reading this thread pc mode is a non starter due to color banding. I also play pc games, so I assume color banding issues will also be present in hdr games using pc mode? Is rgb full with tv set to hdmi black level of high and the input left as default the way to go for both gaming and mad vr usage?

[chros]

I have not measured my C8, but 760 is consistently slightly brighter than 700 for demos, so I use that.
Hmm, demos?
My point is I think you can go way higher, but I'm not sure without actual measurement.

I have a c9 and a geforce 2070 super on the way. Are there some good recommended settings for this tv with madvr?
Take a look at the recent attached settings (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-254.html#post58774750), and a bit of explanation (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-250.html#post58767112) about them.

From what I gather reading this thread pc mode is a non starter due to color banding.
Most people would tell this but I'm still using PC mode all the time (although I don't game anymore). :)
There's no perfect mode unfortunately, you have to choose which one you can live with.

Take a look at this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) if you haven't yet, I'm pretty sure the same is true for 2019 models. And if not, you have a testing guideline at least :)

Is rgb full with tv set to hdmi black level of high ... the way to go for ... mad vr usage?
Yes.

[chros]

Btw, Ted found a diag mode (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-120.html#post58775722) with 2017-2019 Oleds :)

[tyguy]

Hmm, demos?
My point is I think you can go way higher, but I'm not sure without actual measurement.


Take a look at the recent attached settings (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-254.html#post58774750), and a bit of explanation (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-250.html#post58767112) about them.


Most people would tell this but I'm still using PC mode all the time (although I don't game anymore). :)
There's no perfect mode unfortunately, you have to choose which one you can live with.

Take a look at this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) if you haven't yet, I'm pretty sure the same is true for 2019 models. And if not, you have a testing guideline at least :)


Yes.
Thanks for the advice. I was using passthrough with my current tv(samsung q6fn), but i'll try tone map using pixel shaders when my tv an card comes in. I take it I don't want to use dynamic tonemapping with hdr 10 content if we are going to be dialing in these settings manually?

[chros]

I take it I don't want to use dynamic tonemapping with hdr 10 content if we are going to be dialing in these settings manually?
I still use LG's DTM with it, but there are others who don't.

[SamuriHL]

:) It's "just" 30 mins, force yourself, you can dot it ... :)

I'll be measuring it this week. I got a new I1 Display Pro and Calman this week so I'll get to both recalibrate this thing and measure it. I'm not super familiar with Calman so I'll probably have to do it a couple times to figure everything out.

[SamuriHL]

That was fun, but, Calman Home for LG didn't allow me to measure my peak luminance. Sooo I still don't know what my peak lum is. I've asked in the AVS Calman Home for LG if there's a way to measure it. There has to be. Calibration definitely improved things for me though.

[SamuriHL]

There we go. My peak lum is 824 nits.

[j82k]

Anybody with a C8 who has the UHD Blu-Ray version of 'Maleficent' or 'The Lion King' and could check some scenes?

I'm getting some really strange colors in certain darker scenes with the C8. I think it's a saturation problem with cyan and I've seen this in a lot of movies. This isn't a pc or madvr problem as those scenes look fine on the GZ2000 and the problem also exists when playing the files directly form the C8s USB.

Some examples:
(left C8, right GZ2000)

The Lion King
https://i.imgur.com/Aarp1Jc.jpg
Basically the whole section in the hyena cave starting at 33 minutes looks weird on the C8. It's a mix of cyan and magenta.

The Lion King (01:26:17)
https://i.imgur.com/kH6Uobs.jpg
If you look closely at the Lion and Ape, small sections are cyan tinted while they shouldn't be. There is no such color shift on the Panasonic.

Maleficent (00:17:05)
https://i.imgur.com/yIRsWwH.jpg
The cyan colored highlights in Angelina Jolies face are way oversaturated and it looks really strange and wrong on the C8.


The camera exaggerates the color temperature differences between the two TVs somewhat but this cyan/magenta problem is visible with any picture preset, calibrated or not and only HDR seems to be affected. When tone mapping to SDR with madVR these scenes look fine.

[SamuriHL]

I don't have either of those movies on UHD. Lion King will be coming at some point once my daughter orders it. So unfortunately I can't check for you on that one.

[chros]

My peak lum is 824 nits.
Nice, ~120 nits plus compared to B8. Check with Calman or HFRC that which nits value in madvr produce the best PQ tracking.

I don't have either of those movies on UHD.
You don't need to: just check any movie with any scenes < 15 nits.

I'm getting some really strange colors in certain darker scenes with the C8. I think it's a saturation problem with cyan and I've seen this in a lot of movies.
...
this cyan/magenta problem is visible with any picture preset, calibrated or not and only HDR seems to be affected. When tone mapping to SDR with madVR these scenes look fine.
I checked with Maleficent frame on B8 (HDMI mode, PC mode, passthrough, madvr pixelshader: all look the same) and yes: that's what I always see as well in dark HDR scenes.

Haven't you noticed this before? Which firmware do you have on C8 currently?

the problem also exists when playing the files directly form the C8s USB.
So, what was the 2 test cases? Passthrough vs madvr pixelshader at 760 nits?

I thought it's the drawback of the OLED technology using HDR, but it's clearly not the case! That Panasonic is just beautiful! It's like watching normal mode vs PC mode! :D I think you can sell your C8 :D

Btw, which mode did you use on Panasonic? Normal or PC?

And congrats to your 3rd, seemingly perfect Panasonic GZ2000! Only if they do 24p judder free mode ... I wouldn't hesitate for a moment! :)

[j82k]

I checked with Maleficent frame on B8 (HDMI mode, PC mode, passthrough, madvr pixelshader: all look the same) and yes: that's what I always see as well in dark HDR scenes.

Haven't you noticed this before? Which firmware do you have on C8 currently?


So, what was the 2 test cases? Passthrough vs madvr pixelshader at 760 nits?

I thought it's the drawback of the OLED technology using HDR, but it's clearly not the case! That Panasonic is just beautiful! It's like watching normal mode vs PC mode! :D I think you can sell your C8 :D

Btw, which mode did you use on Panasonic? Normal or PC?


My C8 is on 05.10.35 but I already noticed this cyan/magenta problem in certain HDR scenes with 05.10.20.
I have no idea if this problem always existed and I just didn't notice or if it's a firmware messup from LG. Too bad we can't downgrade anymore...

Both TVs were using non-pc mode with HDR passthrough.
I think this is a BT.2020 problem. When I tonemap to SDR with madVR these scenes look much better on the C8 but if I use SDR with BT.2020 output they look as bad again.

[chros]

My C8 is on 05.10.35 but I already noticed this cyan/magenta problem in certain HDR scenes with 05.10.20.
...
I think this is a BT.2020 problem. When I tonemap to SDR with madVR these scenes look much better on the C8 but if I use SDR with BT.2020 output they look as bad again.
Now I understand what you meant, and I replicated the same thing on B8: SDR converted image looks much more natural (using ISF Bright room @140 nits in Wide gamut mode gamma 2.2, plus external 3dlut). And it's not firmware related, since I'm still on 4.10.25.
Nice find, again!

I always wondered whether we need the BT.2020 mode (small logo at the top on the info screen) using HDR, since we can reach close to DCI-P3 in Wide SDR mode as well.

And you know what? Remember when I told you that PC mode is fine with bright images but it's getting ugly with dark images? Probably it's the same problem, but exaggerated by PC mode.

So, the question is: is there any way to trigger HDR mode without enabling BT.2020 mode? This could solve our issue using madvr "output HDR" without introducing new ones :)

[SamuriHL]

Nice, ~120 nits plus compared to B8. Check with Calman or HFRC that which nits value in madvr produce the best PQ tracking.


It's on the list of things to do. I get the HDFury Integral 2 tomorrow so I can calibrate Dolby Vision for streaming content. I had to redo the HDR calibration and I'm now right around 800 nits. Still, it's not bad. I've left madvr at 760 for now to give myself a little breathing room but I'll see if I can raise it without causing problems and see where it rolls off. I'm still quite new to calibrating this TV so I'll likely revisit this a couple times. Right now I'm just using the lightning LUT option but when I get a few hours I'll do a point calibration and see if I can get it tighter. LMAO It's already insanely dialed in. Hell, even watching football in SDR is a huge improvement. Glad I invested in the hardware and software to get it done.

[chros]

Glad I invested in the hardware and software to get it done.
:) Nice to hear it, good job!

So, the question is: is there any way to trigger HDR mode without enabling BT.2020 mode?
What happens to the BT.2020 mode on the TV if you switch on the OS HDR button? (I can't try it, there's no HDR OS switch on Windows 10 1607 :) )

[janos666]

So, the question is: is there any way to trigger HDR mode without enabling BT.2020 mode?
There is but the color gamut is limited to Rec709. I have a bug with my AMD Ryzen+Vega notebook where Rec2020 fails to trigger in certain resolutions and it's immediately visible (colors are way under-saturated) but HDR still works (the full dynamic range is there).

I always wondered whether we need the BT.2020 mode (small logo at the top on the info screen) using HDR, since we can reach close to DCI-P3 in Wide SDR mode as well.
Yes because these are always Rec2020 colors. The P3 metadata merely informs you (and the display, in case it's interested) that the mastering display had P3 primaries (but the content can still have colors outside the P3 gamut). So, no, Rec709 metadata + Wide probably won't work (well, I never tried but it shouldn't, unless it works in some unexpected way).

It's like watching normal mode vs PC mode! :D I think you can sell your C8 :D
Exactly... At first glance I was sure he forgot the C8 in PC mode and/or wasn't yet aware that PC mode decreases the precision (which is much more visible in HDR10 mode).

It's on the list of things to do. I get the HDFury Integral 2 tomorrow so I can calibrate Dolby Vision for streaming content. I had to redo the HDR calibration and I'm now right around 800 nits. Still, it's not bad. I've left madvr at 760 for now to give myself a little breathing room but I'll see if I can raise it without causing problems and see where it rolls off.
Unless you can alter the peak brightness parameter (only possible on 2019 models), you should aim for 700 nit (decrease OLED Light if necessary) and set madVR to 700 nit (regardless if you changed the OLED Light or not and regardless of what you measure as real peak white because the internal processor assumes 700 nit). But DolbyVision if fine with the default OLED Light (unlike with HDR10, the uploaded file contains the real peak white data and it's taken into account).
And accept my honest condolences. The Fury is a b***. (You will probably spend an hour to get it working, more if you have USB/driver issues like I had. Oh, any I had to switch to Dolbyvision manually, CalMAN used incorrect HEX codes. HDR10 worked fine.)

Edit:
I see a little bit of magenta but nothing crazy and I can't capture it with a phone (55C8, 05.10.40 EU, Cinema mode, not calibrated, PC source 12bit Full RGB).

[SamuriHL]

Unless you can alter the peak brightness parameter (only possible on 2019 models), you should aim for 700 nit (decrease OLED Light if necessary) and set madVR to 700 nit (regardless if you changed the OLED Light or not and regardless of what you measure as real peak white because the internal processor assumes 700 nit). But DolbyVision if fine with the default OLED Light (unlike with HDR10, the uploaded file contains the real peak white data and it's taken into account).
And accept my honest condolences. The Fury is a b***. (You will probably spend an hour to get it working, more if you have USB/driver issues like I had. Oh, any I had to switch to Dolbyvision manually, CalMAN used incorrect HEX codes. HDR10 worked fine.)

I've been using 760 without ill effect so far. I can calibrate it for 700 and see what that looks like in comparison. Figures LG gimped HDR10 support on this thing. LOL

Oh goodie. I'm going to have a blast huh? Well, I wanted one for a few reasons so I will spend the time to get it connected and working. I wasn't planning on letting Calman set the metadata for DV anyway as I wasn't sure if they added support for the Integral 2 yet or not. Last article I saw on it said support was coming. You wouldn't happen to know the proper metadata offhand would you? This is what I found:

§ Paste (but don’t do anything for now) the follow HEX code into the CUSTOM HDR IF: field: 81:01:18:36:03:0c:00:20:01:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00 :00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00
§ Confirm the following code is in the CUSTOM AVI IF: field: 00:08:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00


Not sure if that's the incorrect values you're referring to?

[j82k]

I see a little bit of magenta but nothing crazy and I can't capture it with a phone (55C8, 05.10.40 EU, Cinema mode, not calibrated, PC source 12bit Full RGB).


That looks better than on my C8.
Now I'm wondering if this is a panel variance thing. My C8 is way too dark in the low end and the only way to solve this for HDR without losing true black is to increase 2P Low RGB. Maybe this has something to do with it.

In my case it's definitely not a PC problem as these scenes look similar played from USB or another playback device.

So you're on 05.10.40. I assume that's an engineering FW version?

[j82k]

Now I understand what you meant, and I replicated the same thing on B8: SDR converted image looks much more natural (using ISF Bright room @140 nits in Wide gamut mode gamma 2.2, plus external 3dlut). And it's not firmware related, since I'm still on 4.10.25.
Nice find, again!

I always wondered whether we need the BT.2020 mode (small logo at the top on the info screen) using HDR, since we can reach close to DCI-P3 in Wide SDR mode as well.

And you know what? Remember when I told you that PC mode is fine with bright images but it's getting ugly with dark images? Probably it's the same problem, but exaggerated by PC mode.

So, the question is: is there any way to trigger HDR mode without enabling BT.2020 mode? This could solve our issue using madvr "output HDR" without introducing new ones :)

What I've been doing the past weeks was to tone map to SDR, madVR set to DCI-P3, TV to wide. Also ModuleHDR in the service menu turned on which gives me like 550 nits SDR peak brightness with Oled/Contrast 100. Not sure how correct this is but I prefered that to HDR output even though it's 200 nits less.

[chros]

Now I'm wondering if this is a panel variance thing.
I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with panel variance: mine is a normal panel (the original one, meaning it hasn't been replaced), and I experience the same thing with B8. (And I know that @janos666 thinks that B8 is way worse in HDR than C8 :) )

So you're on 05.10.40. I assume that's an engineering FW version?
Yes, it is, he is a brave man! :D

What I've been doing the past weeks was to tone map to SDR, madVR set to DCI-P3, TV to wide. Also ModuleHDR in the service menu turned on which gives me like 550 nits SDR peak brightness with Oled/Contrast 100. Not sure how correct this is but I prefered that to HDR output even though it's 200 nits less.
:D Interesting! I have never tried this. @janos666 can tell more about its flaws.

I see a little bit of magenta but nothing crazy and I can't capture it with a phone (55C8, 05.10.40 EU, Cinema mode, not calibrated, PC source 12bit Full RGB).
Have you compared to SDR mode as well? Switch between e.g. passthrough and HDR2SDR pixelshader (not "output HDR"), it should be clearly visible. Pick a scene around 10 nits :)

There is but the color gamut is limited to Rec709.
I don't think so, only if Auto is selected for the gamut. But you can select Wide in Normal mode, and we can use Standard preset to get Wide gamut in PC mode as well. This should give us the native panel gamut, just as in SDR mode.

I have a bug with my AMD Ryzen+Vega notebook where Rec2020 fails to trigger in certain resolutions and it's immediately visible (colors are way under-saturated) but HDR still works (the full dynamic range is there).
Wow! That's really good news, thanks!

Yes because these are always Rec2020 colors. The P3 metadata merely informs you (and the display, in case it's interested) that the mastering display had P3 primaries (but the content can still have colors outside the P3 gamut). So, no, Rec709 metadata + Wide probably won't work (well, I never tried but it shouldn't, unless it works in some unexpected way).
I know what you mean, but I think it can work: since madvr does the gamut mapping (desaturate dropdown) even when "output HDR" is selected, then we don't need the broken LG BT.2020 gamut processing, instead we can set the display to its native gamut (Wide option).

I just asked madshi to add a switch for us (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-267.html#post58836744). If you like the idea then drop there a comment, he'll more likely implement it if more people ask for it :)

[janos666]

I've been using 760 without ill effect so far. I can calibrate it for 700 and see what that looks like in comparison. Figures LG gimped HDR10 support on this thing. LOL

It's not about clipping, banding or similar artifacts but accurate TRC tracking. The TV's processor does the tone-mapping with 700 nit peak in mind. If your panel is capable of and set to 800 nit then the whole curve has a positive offset (every color, even dark tones are more or less brighter than reference). madVR's mapping (when set to your real peak white but above 700 nit) won't correct that offset.
Another reason to set 700 nit in madVR is that the TV thinks the panel is 700 nit and thus this is the point where it should start doing hard-clip instead of roll-off and madVR theoretically sends this number as MDL=maxCLL (so your TV should do hard-clip at it's nominal peak with 700). Anything less and you waste the dynamic range of the hardware, more and your TV start doing roll-off.

Oh goodie. I'm going to have a blast huh? Well, I wanted one for a few reasons so I will spend the time to get it connected and working. I wasn't planning on letting Calman set the metadata for DV anyway as I wasn't sure if they added support for the Integral 2 yet or not. Last article I saw on it said support was coming. You wouldn't happen to know the proper metadata offhand would you? This is what I found:

§ Paste (but don’t do anything for now) the follow HEX code into the CUSTOM HDR IF: field: 81:01:18:36:03:0c:00:20:01:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00 :00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00
§ Confirm the following code is in the CUSTOM AVI IF: field: 00:08:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00

Well, actually, I have the original Integral (rev2) but I assume the HEX codes are universal. I forgot the Integral 2 has a new CP GUI, so probably needs specific CalMAN updates as well.
CalMAN sets what you quoted. I had to use these (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-87.html#post58597502) (only the AVI IF is different).

What I've been doing the past weeks was to tone map to SDR, madVR set to DCI-P3, TV to wide.
Yeah, that should work as far as SDR Wide is practically (almost) DCI-P3.
Also ModuleHDR in the service menu turned on which gives me like 550 nits SDR peak brightness with Oled/Contrast 100. Not sure how correct this is but I prefered that to HDR output even though it's 200 nits less.
Last time I checked (may be that wasn't on a C8 but a B8 or C7) ModuleHDR=ON will mess up the color accuracy of the SDR mode as the W starts to over-shine the RGB set and you get that increasingly less saturated "dome" at the top of the dynamic range (where the W can go higher but the R,G,B are already maxed out, so the panel can get brighter but won't deliver the correct color). This is different with Alpha7 and Alpha9 branded TVs. The A7 starts to de-saturate the colors at lower brightness (although I think this has nothing to with the processor but done by the panel driver where the RGB->WRGB magic happens, yet the Alpha branding still tells you which mode is utilized in HDR on the given model).
Thus, wouldn't set it to always ON (unless you really know what you are doing but CMS softwares don't like these non-additive color spaces, so it's hard, if not practically impossible, to create a 3DLUT correction for this). Always Off could be more useful than always On (but only on 2019 models or when yo want a 3DLUT correction).
I don't know why SDR 100/100 doesn't reach the HDR peak brightness with this ModuleHDR switch turned ON, I guess the OLED Light slider values are mapped to different lower level values in SDR (and SDR is clipped below actual 100%). Or may be it's clipped by some ABL (even on tiny windows) which behaves differently in SDR.

So you're on 05.10.40. I assume that's an engineering FW version?
Yes but I am sure it has nothing to do with this. I bet this issue spans through several model years, SoC revisions and firmware versions. It was always clearly visible in PC mode, thus it's probably always there for a varying degree.

Now I'm wondering if this is a panel variance thing. My C8 is way too dark in the low end and the only way to solve this for HDR without losing true black is to increase 2P Low RGB. Maybe this has something to do with it.
May be your panel has slightly more near-black banding and/or white balance fluctuations even with any and all kind of SoC processing turned off (e.g. put into calibration mode and fully reset). And any kind of SoC processing (except dithering or de-banding) only reduces the (perceived) precision, especially the user menu controls. It would be interesting if you looked at these scenes with the RGB Low/High controls at default (yeah, even the High because the user menu WP setting is not flawless either, you should use the EZ-ADJUST controls if you need to set this). And never touch the CMS in HDR!

[chros]

What I've been doing the past weeks was to tone map to SDR, madVR set to DCI-P3, TV to wide. Also ModuleHDR in the service menu turned on which gives me like 550 nits SDR peak brightness with Oled/Contrast 100. Not sure how correct this is but I prefered that to HDR output even though it's 200 nits less.

Last time I checked (may be that wasn't on a C8 but a B8 or C7) ModuleHDR=ON will mess up the color accuracy of the SDR mode as the W starts to over-shine the RGB set and you get that increasingly less saturated "dome" at the top of the dynamic range (where the W can go higher but the R,G,B are already maxed out, so the panel can get brighter but won't deliver the correct color). This is different with Alpha7 and Alpha9 branded TVs. The A7 starts to de-saturate the colors at lower brightness ... .
Thus, wouldn't set it to always ON (unless you really know what you are doing but CMS softwares don't like these non-additive color spaces, so it's hard, if not practically impossible, to create a 3DLUT correction for this). Always Off could be more useful than always On (but only on 2019 models or when yo want a 3DLUT correction).

I just quickly tested it (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-122.html#post58836930): SDR gamma tracking is screwed up completely, and we haven't even talked about color accuracy yet :)

And as @janos666 said, I don't think that even a 3dlut can correct that amount of panel instability (although can moderate the issue). (I just quickly enabled my existing SDR gamma 2.2 3dlut as well to see the effect.)
Otherwise it didn't look that bad.

Anyway, I hope madshi will implement that checkbox, so we can try it out.

[janos666]

Have you compared to SDR mode as well? Switch between e.g. passthrough and HDR2SDR pixelshader (not "output HDR"), it should be clearly visible. Pick a scene around 10 nits :)
I tried but all colors on these images look significantly different to start with, so it's not that easy to guess the truth. j82k's Panasonic images show some magenta as well, just a lot less...

I don't think so, only if Auto is selected for the gamut. But you can select Wide in Normal mode, and we can use Standard preset to get Wide gamut in PC mode as well. This should give us the native panel gamut, just as in SDR mode.
The Color Gamut presets work differently in SDR and HDR. In SDR Wide=Native. In HDR Auto is supposed to yield correct colors but Extended and Wide "boost" the saturation (more vibrant colors than reference, if possible within the Native boundaries, clipped otherwise).
If HDR Wide was Native then colors would look under-saturated since the content is Rec2020 (this would be the opposite of watching Rec709 content in SDR Wide where the content gamut is smaller and thus it appears over-saturated --- in this case the content gamut is bigger, so...).
It's difficult to guess what really happens in HDR mode. We have a static 3DLUT in use (which could do the Rec2020->Native mapping) but colors are still limited to Rec709 when we don't send the Rec2020 metadata, so either some math-based processing is involved on top of the 3DLUT or the TV switches to a different 3DUT (currently non-programmable factory one with Rec709->Native mapping). Hmm... Some experimentation could answer this...
We know that colors look under-saturated in HDR with a neutral 3DLUT (if you exit calibration mode after a DDC reset), so I guess the 3DLUT is Rec2020->Native, not P3->Native and thus there is no Rec2020->P3 real-time math. So, in case of no Rec2020 metadata, we either have the Rec2020->Native 3DLUT + Rec709 math or the TV switches to a non-programmable factory Rec709->Native 3DLUT.
Anyways... if you want Native gamut in HDR, you have to reset the 3DLUT via DDC and keep the Rec2020 metadata in the signal. And then convert externally from Rec2020 to P3 (but not to Rec709).

Or may be... just may be... HDR Wide could be Native with no Rec2020 matadata in the signal. (I haven't though about that. Sorry.) But you have to check if that's the case. I somehow doubt this.

[j82k]

I just quickly tested it (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-122.html#post58836930): SDR gamma tracking is screwed up completely, and we haven't even talked about color accuracy yet :)


Interesting, I'm pretty sure when I tested this HDR peak brightness didn't increase with HDR Module On. So the B8 apparently behaves differently.

Also for some reason the sports preset is significantly brighter than all the other presets with HDR Module On,even with color temperature set to W50. Too bad it's such a crappy preset so that's useless.

j82k's Panasonic images show some magenta as well, just a lot less...
.

Yes I think this is more of a saturation problem and not related with the pc-mode banding...

[janos666]

I came back with a few more images (with a better camera this time): HDR passthrough vs. madVR SDR conversion

https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019635.jpg https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019636.jpg
https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019633.jpg https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019634.jpg
https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019631.jpg https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019632.jpg

Yes I think this is more of a saturation problem and not related with the pc-mode banding...
Banding can cause saturation errors. It means you get the same amount of a color component across a range of input values. That means sometimes you will have way too much or way too little of a component if it's severe enough. The effect is not limited to the gray scale (where it messes up the white balance) but affects random mixed colors as well. And in this case, we also have the W-magic to make it even more difficult.
But it could be something else, of course. May be this happens around the edge of the native gamut where the processor tries to clip to the closest color. But "closest" could mean a lot of things, depending on the color space and logic. It's not necessarily closest perceptually for humans.

[j82k]

Just did a quick comparison, I think on my C8 the difference is more significant.

Passthrough:
https://i.imgur.com/ZqWik53.jpg

HDRtoSDR (madVR set to DCI-P3, TV Wide)
https://i.imgur.com/bQ2mBHA.jpg

The HDRtoSDR picture looks much better and closer to what it looks like on the Panasonic.

It looks a bit exaggerated on the photo but to remove the oversaturated cyan in passthough mode I would have to lower color to like 30 or so and that of course would mess up brighter scenes. And like I said before, playing the file from the TVs USB looks similar, so not a pc problem...

[VBB]

So guys, I've been following the conversation, and I still don't understand why forcing BT.2020 via madVR is necessary with the OLEDs.

My C7 uses non-PC mode set to WIDE for SDR, AUTO for HDR. I have a 3D LUT for SDR in every slot in madVR (I know that's not necessary). I currently don't use tone-mapping, and HDR in madVR is set to pass-through.

Am I missing something in this scenario by NOT having the "force BT.2020" option checked? If the TV is already set to its widest gamut, what difference would it make?

[huhn]

HDR passthrough automatically triggers a kind of send BT 2020 at the end device because it know the image has a gamut up to bt 2020.

if you tone map then there is a good reason to use BT 2020 and with projector it's kind of a needed function.

[SamuriHL]

More specifically if you tone map without the output HDR option enabled. If you do use it there's no need to enable the send bt.2020 option and in fact you shouldn't if you view any rec.709 content else it gets sent as bt.2020.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[janos666]

I managed to set up the HDR10 Game mode with a neutral 1DLUT (started with full DDC reset) and a 3DLUT created with DisplayCAL (33 linear gray steps + R,G,B at 50% [safely below the RGB clipping point around 66%], Rec2020 + gamma 2.2 targets and a shaper+matrix profile).
Result: zero magenta artifacts in Lion King (the CalMAN 1D+3D LUT calibrated Technicolor profile has the most of it) and no under-saturation either (the factory Cinema mode has minimal magenta artifacts but it often shows grays instead of blues on those areas).
But Jolie's face is even further from the SDR conversion results (same camera settings but I held it in my hand this time instead of restoring the original position with the tripod and all...):

https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019642.jpg

https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019641_3.jpg

However, this was my very first attempt with DisplayCAL, so some tweaking of the test chart could improve things.

[SamuriHL]

So far no luck in getting the Integral2 to work with DV. It switches the mode to DV but black screen only and I have to reset the EDID to get it back. There can be a whole myriad of reasons as to why this isn't working unfortunately. SIGH

[SamuriHL]

The ingegral2 is starting to massively piss me off. It's broken my ability to do RGB 8 bit FULL on my HTPC. It turns the screen completely purple. WTF?! Setting it to limited is fine. If I take the Integral2 out of the mix, it's fine. It's making me very very irritable. Not to mention I can't get the goddamn thing to enable DV which is the big reason I bought it. Fix every HDMI issue...guaranteed? Um, RIGHT!!!!!!!! I'm really irritated now.

EDIT: Ok I fixed the RGB 8 bit FULL issue. This device is TOUCHY. It and I are going to have to get acquainted slowly. It's very powerful but good lord. Still don't have DV working properly. I'd like to get that done so I can calibrate it. It needs to be done before Friday.

[janos666]

So far no luck in getting the Integral2 to work with DV. It switches the mode to DV but black screen only and I have to reset the EDID to get it back. There can be a whole myriad of reasons as to why this isn't working unfortunately. SIGH

Try setting all hardware dip switches to the middle position (software controlled), then in the GUI software, set HDCP to 1.4 (wasn't necessary for me), Audio to Jack for HDR10 and HDMI for DolbyVision (this is how it worked for me on the old Integral 1), DolbyVision is fine with most EDID settings (fairly high-bw/spec) but HDR10 needs the Default (or similarly low-bw/spec).
Regardless of this injection thing, most of the high-bandwidth, high-spec EDIDs cause issues at high pixel clocks (high res, high refresh rate) with my Mobile Vega 8 (notebook HDMI output) but work fine with my desktop GTX1070.
I ended up using 1080p24 for DV and 2160p30 for HDR10 (couldn't get any other res working with DV and interestingly 1080p24 doesn't work with HDR10 injection, crazy...). Some other resolutions cause black screen or fail to register Rec2020, etc. But most of these issues are related to the AMD GPU. Most things work flawlessly with an nVidia card (even things which shouldn't work according to manual).
Oh, and update the firmware unless you are already at the latest. And try the DV AVI IF I linked a few days ago (keep in mind that these are for given display modes, like 1080p24 RGB and won't work with other formats).

[chros]

Just did a quick comparison, I think on my C8 the difference is more significant.
...
The HDRtoSDR picture looks much better and closer to what it looks like on the Panasonic.

It looks a bit exaggerated on the photo but to remove the oversaturated cyan in passthough mode I would have to lower color to like 30 or so and that of course would mess up brighter scenes.
Same here with the B8.

I managed to set up the HDR10 Game mode with a neutral 1DLUT (started with full DDC reset) and a 3DLUT created with DisplayCAL (33 linear gray steps + R,G,B at 50% [safely below the RGB clipping point around 66%], Rec2020 + gamma 2.2 targets and a shaper+matrix profile).
Result: zero magenta artifacts in Lion King (the CalMAN 1D+3D LUT calibrated Technicolor profile has the most of it) and no under-saturation either (the factory Cinema mode has minimal magenta artifacts but it often shows grays instead of blues on those areas).
But Jolie's face is even further from the SDR conversion results (same camera settings but I held it in my hand this time instead of restoring the original position with the tripod and all...)
Thanks for testing it!
So do you say that is better now or "just" different? Could you clearly see the issue in person in uncalibrated mode? Honestly, I could barely see the issue on your original screenshots, but here the difference is big (= clearly visible). :)

I just tried to explain madshi (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-269.html#post58842352) what needs to be done if it makes sense at all.

And here is the result of recent HSTM experience (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-269.html#post58842414). :)

[SamuriHL]

Try setting all hardware dip switches to the middle position (software controlled), then in the GUI software, set HDCP to 1.4 (wasn't necessary for me), Audio to Jack for HDR10 and HDMI for DolbyVision (this is how it worked for me on the old Integral 1), DolbyVision is fine with most EDID settings (fairly high-bw/spec) but HDR10 needs the Default (or similarly low-bw/spec).
Regardless of this injection thing, most of the high-bandwidth, high-spec EDIDs cause issues at high pixel clocks (high res, high refresh rate) with my Mobile Vega 8 (notebook HDMI output) but work fine with my desktop GTX1070.
I ended up using 1080p24 for DV and 2160p30 for HDR10 (couldn't get any other res working with DV and interestingly 1080p24 doesn't work with HDR10 injection, crazy...). Some other resolutions cause black screen or fail to register Rec2020, etc. But most of these issues are related to the AMD GPU. Most things work flawlessly with an nVidia card (even things which shouldn't work according to manual).
Oh, and update the firmware unless you are already at the latest. And try the DV AVI IF I linked a few days ago (keep in mind that these are for given display modes, like 1080p24 RGB and won't work with other formats).Yeah I read the link you gave very carefully and set up 1080/24 with no windows scaling (set to 100%). Could not get dv to show up. I didn't try hdcp 1.4 so I'll try that. I factory reset the tv list night so I still need to redo HDR. I got sdr rec709 dialed in very nicely. And yes on the latest firmware as well. Not sure I had all the switches set to the middle. Maybe that's part of the issue too. Finicky device. Doing this on my rtx 2070. Thanks for the help!!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[janos666]

Thanks for testing it!
So do you say that is better now or "just" different? Could you clearly see the issue in person in uncalibrated mode? Honestly, I could barely see the issue on your original screenshots, but here the difference is big (= clearly visible). :)

On the Lion Kind images, I mostly see (in person) a little de-saturation (some blue shades turn into gray) and minimal magenta (I really have to look for it) in factory Cinema and a little bit of meganta error in CalMAN 1D+3D LUT calibrated Technicolor (I don't have to concentrate and stare at it but it's not too bad), zero issues in DisplayCAL 3D LUT (+ not factory but cleared, neutral 1DLUT) calibrated Game mode (absolutely no sign of any mageta, the entire scene is deep blue and there is no grayish de-saturation on the shadows either, it goes from blue to black where there is no bright rock).

I tried to re-fine the DisplayCAL method todays (using a bigger patch set) but realized that CalMAN expects an AutoDesk/Kodak 3DLUT with an actual 16-255 range, so the DisplayCAL LUT either clips the upper end (significantly reduces the peak white) or crushes the blacks (the first one wasn't so obvious at first). This method would require LS DeviceControl...

My guess is that we should see zero magenta during that Lion King hyena scene and it's a human-subjective error in the CMS which creates the 3DLUT (factory one included) or an inaccuracy of the TV's processing (the 1DLUT and/or the user menu WB/gamma controls) similar to the more prominent magenta banding in PC mode.
I remember having similar issues with yCMS (a software which was put together by a member of this forum to create 3DLUTs for madVR before it was discontinued in favor of the more established ArgyllCMS).
When the content has colors very close to or out of the display gamut, it's not obvious what's the human-perceptually closest available color to use instead. Close proximity is a spear segment in a cube and what's equidistant in an YXZ space isn't necessarily so in some other color space like Jab. So, this might looks mathematically closest in a certain space to some algo but subjectively a human might prefers to see yellowish compromise rather than purplish compromise, etc. There is no absolute objective perfect solution for this. I think ArgyllCMS uses Jab or Dab (or something like that) space to make these kinds of clipping decisions. CalMAN might use another working color space (as well as whatever CSM is used for the factory LUT).

And the de-saturation with the factory LUT could actually be intentional. Some calibration guides suggest doing this on purpose to better match the OLED screens to the "standard" LCD colors (where you have no real black and the gray "background noise" de-saturates dark colors). But, of course, this could be a random fault in the factory state, especially after all those "macro block" fixes which altered the near-black dithering and distorted the factory calibrations for some degree.

[SamuriHL]

Ok, I got HDR recalibrated. That was a chore. LOL You are 100% right about NOT going above 700 nits on these panels. I watched it build my curve and saw what it was doing to everything above 700. Um, no. Just no. LOL I set madvr for 700 and there is definitely a difference. However, the stupid factory reset turned my dynamic tone mapping back on which explains why it had some trouble calibrating the mid-range of the greyscale. I will have to do it one more time with that turned off cause I do not like the LG DTM. Nonetheless, the picture quality with neo-xp's latest curve and this latest recalibration is absolutely freaking outstanding.

I'll get to Dolby Vision again tomorrow. Or at least make another attempt. I got some longer USB cables coming which will help me not have to keep rearranging my living room in order to setup a calibration session.

[janos666]

However, the stupid factory reset turned my dynamic tone mapping back on which explains why it had some trouble calibrating the mid-range of the greyscale. I will have to do it one more time with that turned off cause I do not like the LG DTM.

I think DTM is a no-op in calibration mode since the entire HDR tone mapping is bypassed. And I think the calibration would have failed (with an error) or would look unacceptable in case it was indeed active.
But it does effect the validation (after you exit from calibration mode).

I don't like DTM either. I even made comparison images which show that DolbyVision and HDR10 look much closer to each other than DV and HDR+DTM. Most of the time, DTM simply makes everything brighter (especially dark scenes).

I'll get to Dolby Vision again tomorrow. Or at least make another attempt. I got some longer USB cables coming which will help me not have to keep rearranging my living room in order to setup a calibration session.

If you need mental support for the task, just keep in mind that HDR10 and DV need the exact same 1DLUT but CalMAN won't allow you to copy it. :D

[SamuriHL]

I think DTM is a no-op in calibration mode since the entire HDR tone mapping is bypassed. And I think the calibration would have failed (with an error) or would look unacceptable in case it was indeed active.
But it does effect the validation (after you exit from calibration mode).

I don't like DTM either. I even made comparison images which show that DolbyVision and HDR10 look much closer to each other than DV and HDR+DTM. Most of the time, DTM simply makes everything brighter (especially dark scenes).


Ah kuel that makes sense and is nice. I shut it off and ran through a couple of my favorite test videos and it looks correct. Saves me the hassle of running through calibration again. I agree that DV and HDR (tone mapped with madvr, of course) look very close. I don't worry about DV on UHD discs anymore. But for streaming it absolutely makes a difference for this tv. And I want it dialed in.


If you need mental support for the task, just keep in mind that HDR10 and DV need the exact same 1DLUT but CalMAN won't allow you to copy it. :D

Oh that just stung! :D It created a really nice one for HDR. Oh well. Let's see it do it again. LMAO

[janos666]

I agree that DV and HDR (tone mapped with madvr, of course) look very close. I don't worry about DV on UHD discs anymore. But for streaming it absolutely makes a difference for this tv. And I want it dialed in.

It looks very close with pass-though when the content is min(MDL,maxCLL)<1000 (especially when it's <=700) and not a huge difference with ~4000, the only problem is 10000 nit content (video games which set no sane numbers) and even that is less of an issue with 2018 models than it was on 2017 ones (those really liked to dim the image with games or even 4000 nit movies, especially that they used to look at MDL and not maxCLL - I am not sure if that changed with firmware updates on pre-2018 models by now).

Oh that just stung! :D It created a really nice one for HDR. Oh well. Let's see it do it again. LMAO

Well, CalMAN gives us the 1DLUT in a CSV file after DV calibration, so we could theoretically copy that to HDR10 with DeviceControl after some external formatting.

[SamuriHL]

That's true I suppose. The whole thing is moot at the moment as no matter what I do I can't get it into dv with anything but a black screen. I'm going to post some screen shots later off my integral 2 gui and see if you can see what I'm doing wrong. No matter what I try I just get a black screen. Sigh.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

I think DTM is a no-op in calibration mode
Yep, it needs to be turned off during calibration/verification.

The Color Gamut presets work differently in SDR and HDR. In SDR Wide=Native. In HDR Auto is supposed to yield correct colors but Extended and Wide "boost" the saturation (more vibrant colors than reference, if possible within the Native boundaries, clipped otherwise).
If HDR Wide was Native then colors would look under-saturated since the content is Rec2020 (this would be the opposite of watching Rec709 content in SDR Wide where the content gamut is smaller and thus it appears over-saturated --- in this case the content gamut is bigger, so...).
...
We know that colors look under-saturated in HDR with a neutral 3DLUT (if you exit calibration mode after a DDC reset), so I guess the 3DLUT is Rec2020->Native, not P3->Native and thus there is no Rec2020->P3 real-time math. So, in case of no Rec2020 metadata, we either have the Rec2020->Native 3DLUT + Rec709 math or the TV switches to a non-programmable factory Rec709->Native 3DLUT.
Anyways... if you want Native gamut in HDR, you have to reset the 3DLUT via DDC and keep the Rec2020 metadata in the signal. And then convert externally from Rec2020 to P3 (but not to Rec709).

Or may be... just may be... HDR Wide could be Native with no Rec2020 matadata in the signal. (I haven't though about that. Sorry.) But you have to check if that's the case. I somehow doubt this.
Interesting thoughts, thanks, maybe/probably you are right. But still, it would be nice to try it.

this could be a random fault in the factory state, especially after all those "macro block" fixes which altered the near-black dithering and distorted the factory calibrations for some degree.
Note that I'm still on 4.10.25 (~ 4.10.15 on C8) and that's way before the macroblocking issue fixes.

On the Lion Kind images, I mostly see (in person) a little de-saturation (some blue shades turn into gray) and minimal magenta (I really have to look for it) in factory Cinema and a little bit of meganta error in CalMAN 1D+3D LUT calibrated Technicolor (I don't have to concentrate and stare at it but it's not too bad), zero issues in DisplayCAL 3D LUT (+ not factory but cleared, neutral 1DLUT) calibrated Game mode (absolutely no sign of any mageta, the entire scene is deep blue and there is no grayish de-saturation on the shadows either, it goes from blue to black where there is no bright rock).
Hmm, so do you say it's a calibration issue?

I tried to re-fine the DisplayCAL method todays (using a bigger patch set) but realized that CalMAN expects an AutoDesk/Kodak 3DLUT with an actual 16-255 range, so the DisplayCAL LUT either clips the upper end (significantly reduces the peak white) or crushes the blacks (the first one wasn't so obvious at first). This method would require LS DeviceControl...
Someone stated here (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/21086/) that DeviceControl no longer needs LS license.

When the content has colors very close to or out of the display gamut, it's not obvious what's the human-perceptually closest available color to use instead.
Hmm... :) If you find out how to experiment with this *without* Calman (only using free utils), don't hesitate to let us know :) Thanks!

[janos666]

Yep, it needs to be turned off during calibration/verification.

By no-op, I mean it doesn't do anything when you activate the Calibration (bypass/passthrough) mode with the DDC control. So, SamuriHL doesn't have to repeat the calibration process.
It has to be turned Off for the final validation though (after you exit Calibration mode via DDC control).

Note that I'm still on 4.10.25 (~ 4.10.15 on C8) and that's way before the macroblocking issue fixes.

Yes, I was referring to the gray under-saturation on my particular unit.

Hmm, so do you say it's a calibration issue?

It's just an idea because I remember several software CMS turning blue into purple in clipping scenarios.

Someone stated here (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/21086/) that DeviceControl no longer needs LS license.

I think he mistakes the 2019 PQ curve parameter templates with the generic DDC ones. Ted's site states that full DDC templates need an active LS license (and online activation, etc).

[SamuriHL]

https://i.ibb.co/N6VKqRf/integral2-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/svmq47c)
https://i.ibb.co/n6kx0By/integral2-2.jpg (https://ibb.co/bQdc3FV)
https://i.ibb.co/LkRgPcm/integral2-3.jpg (https://ibb.co/K0hsGfd)

That's my interface to the Integral 2. It's not hooked up in those pictures but I'm wondering what options I need to set and where to get DV to work. Any help?

[janos666]

I'm getting some really strange colors in certain darker scenes with the C8.

Could you please check if the magenta error is present in a complete factory mode (with all enhancers and dynamic tingies turned OFF, sharpness at 0, etc, but no LUT programming [not even a reset but factory LUT] and zero 2p/20p or CMS adjustments, default brightness/contrast), in an accurate mode (Cinema, Techni, Game)?

That's my interface to the Integral 2. It's not hooked up in those pictures but I'm wondering what options I need to set and where to get DV to work. Any help?

Sorry but the Integral 1 is somewhat different (both hardware and software). But try the fixed EDID and supply the HEX codes manually (don't use the HDR10 metadata settings helper). Try sending the codes without ticking anything ("Enable custom HDR" included) first, then tick that box for testing (I don't have to tick my equivalent, just hit Send). These were my experimental findings and you can ask for help in this topic (the HDFury rep. is helpful): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2171745-hdfury-integral-136.html#post58780576

[SamuriHL]

Sorry but the Integral 1 is somewhat different (both hardware and software). But try the fixed EDID and supply the HEX codes manually (don't use the HDR10 metadata settings helper). Try sending the codes without ticking anything ("Enable custom HDR" included) first, then tick that box for testing (I don't have to tick my equivalent, just hit Send). These were my experimental findings and you can ask for help in this topic (the HDFury rep. is helpful): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2171745-hdfury-integral-136.html#post58780576

Those are all the things I've tried already. I hope this isn't a case of it simply not working on the integral 2! That would make me really unhappy. I'll post over there and see if they have some thoughts.

[janos666]

Those are all the things I've tried already. I hope this isn't a case of it simply not working on the integral 2! That would make me really unhappy. I'll post over there and see if they have some thoughts.

I think it should work more easily (with less config constrains and quirks) but it's also a new product, so there is less information (especially from users in real-life scenarios) and probably more bugs, so...