MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[chros]

Is there any settings that need to be disabled (apart from the obvious ones) either in service menu or in normal menu? I plan to disable ASBL in in-start service menu, what about e.g. "pixel shift"?

[chros]

Is the a9 processor in the C8 worth the extra money since the B8 has the old a7 processor.
I don't really know, but not for me. The idea is using madvr that we have to disable almost every image processing of the TV, so I don't really see the point of having the a9. Not to mention that the new hdmi 2.1 in the new versions will render our TVs basically worthless :)
So my thinking was: pay the minimum and we can upgrade later if it's absolutely needed.

[huhn]

hdmi 2.1 is not making a TV worthless it simply doesn't add anything to it yet.

[SamuriHL]

The promise of HDMI 2.1 is very real but it requires either having everything in the chain be HDMI 2.1 compliant or splitting things like video and audio in order to make use of those features. You'll get the full range of 4K 60 with 4:4:4 and 12 bit, plus 120 support. That's all well and good. There aren't many 4k 60 movies out there as of yet, and nothing does 4k 120 that I'm aware of (didn't say it didn't exist, just that I'm not aware of any sources for it). So that's all well and good and definitely forward thinking. If you plan on upgrading everything in the near term to HDMI 2.1 compliant equipment, waiting to get a proper HDMI 2.1 TV does make sense. Especially if you don't upgrade for a long time between TV's. That being said, the existence of HDMI 2.1 does NOT make our HDMI 2.0 TV's completely obsolete by any means.

As for a display model OLED, you couldn't pay me to take one. LOL Having come off a plasma screen, I was already careful anyway when I got my C8 but I treat it more delicately than I do the plasma. I think the fears of burn in are somewhat overblown, but, for a TV being used as a display model, I'd say that puts the risk of burn in near 99.99999999%. LOL

[nevcairiel]

I've said this before, but for me its just simple logic: Its 2019, the first 2019 TVs already ship with HDMI 2.1, so by 2020 its going to be almost all of them. I can wait another year, and every year that I delay an upgrade also increases my theoretical budget. Some people certainly upgrade TVs a lot more often then me though, and thats fine. :)
And even if I don't buy a HDMI 2.1 AVR immediately, I certainly will within the next couple years. That said, I'll likely do it immediately, since my old one is pre-Atmos/DTS:X. But good AVRs cost more then TVs, its ridicoulous, if you add decent speakers to that (good, but not outrageous), you can almost buy 2 TVs. Luckily good speakers last you a lifetime. Just need to get the Atmos Height-Speaker extension.

Thinking about it, it somehow seems silly to try to aim for the best TV possible and even wait years and years to get one, considering its in reality not *that* expensive if you compare it to other things. High-end phones cost as much as a good 55" TV. My PC setup probably costs as much as a few of those.
My main concern is where I would put all the old ones.. :)

[SamuriHL]

EXACTLY the mentality I go in with. I spent 3 grand on my Panny Plasma 5 years ago. I relegated that to my bedroom (ok, 65" Plasma MIGHT be a bit overkill for a room the size of my bedroom, but, whatever LOL). I have my old Sony 50" sitting in the garage waiting to figure out if someone wants it or not one of these days. I'll take the "what to do with the old one" problem. I mean, people spend 800 bucks on a freaking video card that will be "obsolete" in 3-4 years. A TV for 2 grand every 5 years isn't outrageous. And it'll take that long, IMO, before the realization of HDMI 2.1 comes to pass. I do agree with you on receivers, though. That one is a hard pill to swallow. I've upgraded mine 3 times in the last 5 years and am not keen to do it again. I also need to add the ATMOS height speakers when I get a job to finish out that installation. I'm not in the "wait til everything's perfect" mindset. It's constantly changing no matter when we buy. To me, waiting for everything to be just right means you'll be waiting forever. I get it, setting a goal on what you want is fine. But at some point you just break down and go for it.

[nevcairiel]

My main concern is that the drawbacks of current-gen OLEDs frighten me a bit. My room is never pitch-black during daytime (not even close), and I feel like the black level of my Sony is "just fine", so I've been debating myself on the drawbacks of OLED, vs. the drawbacks of Quantum-Dot Full-Grid LCDs, etc.

Burn-in, ABL trouble, motion stutter, LG OLEDs have all these firmware issues, Sony OLEDs are super expensive, etc. If I had a house with a dedicated video room and full black out, I might think differently (or go projector).
I could get a QLED-type TV a size class bigger then an OLED for the same price. So...

[Sunset1982]

How do the sony Oleds perform in pc mode? any downsides there?

I want an oled with a 4:4:4 mode that can display 24hz with no banding and where it is possible to activate BFI or Truemotion...

[SamuriHL]

You are absolutely correct about the drawbacks of current LG OLED tech. I suspect we'll find out not much has improved in a lot of those areas for the C9. I never even looked at Sony due to the price. I typically wait til night to watch UHD movies on my C8 because of the brightness issues. Watching tv is fine but a good HDR movie requires "proper" ambient lighting. Personally I can live with (most of) the drawbacks on my C8 at least until a new tech comes to rival and/or surpass it.

Speaking of firmware, though, I really have to wonder what the hell LG was thinking with their latest. I'm less than amused.

[huhn]

How do the sony Oleds perform in pc mode? any downsides there?

I want an oled with a 4:4:4 mode that can display 24hz with no banding and where it is possible to activate BFI or Truemotion...

if they work like all over not low end sony TVs you get 4:4:4 with everything from BFI to motion interpolation. you usually just need the picture mode "graphic".

be aware that it is limited to 48 hz BFI that'S to panel limitations for 24p which is quite low. i personally couldn't deal with that.

it's supposed to be notable better in term of banding but a perfect screen is not there 8 bit madVR should be save.

[chros]

hdmi 2.1 is not making a TV worthless it simply doesn't add anything to it yet.

That being said, the existence of HDMI 2.1 does NOT make our HDMI 2.0 TV's completely obsolete by any means.

You are right of course, I meant the used market (money wise) after 2-3-5 years when someone wants to replace it.

My main concern is where I would put all the old ones.. :)

Put it in another room, give it to a family member / neighbour / exgirlfriend/wife :D
Joke aside, if you go for a dealer/retailer with which you can exchange your current TV 3-5 years later for a newer model, then problem solved.

My main concern is that the drawbacks of current-gen OLEDs frighten me a bit. My room is never pitch-black during daytime (not even close), and I feel like the black level of my Sony is "just fine", so I've been debating myself on the drawbacks of OLED, vs. the drawbacks of Quantum-Dot Full-Grid LCDs, etc.

I'm in the same situation, during bright daylight my CCFL LCD is perfect, during the evening is another matter :)

If we only talk about madvr content: 3dluts rescue us, we can create ones with elevated shadows even for gamma 2.2 for day usage (and they be be switched with a script if needed), even using hdr2sdr pixelshader.
If normal content is considered (that I don't have :D ) I'm pretty sure similar effects can be achieved by using the TV settings for day usage.

Burn-in, ABL trouble, motion stutter, LG OLEDs have all these firmware issues
Well, I can tell you my opinion between the 2 technology later :)

I could get a QLED-type TV a size class bigger then an OLED for the same price. So...
Personally, I would go for the size then. But I always wanted to have an OLED. :)

I typically wait til night to watch UHD movies on my C8 because of the brightness issues. Watching tv is fine but a good HDR movie requires "proper" ambient lighting.
:D That's just insane! :D Just choose a UHD bright comedy during the day :)

[iSeries]

Nice one LG. From Vincent Teoh:

https://twitter.com/Vincent_Teoh/status/1113439059899187200

"Unpopular opinion: unless you were seeing lots of near-black flashing/ macroblocking in regular viewing on your 2018 LG OLED with Alpha 9 chipset, AND have access (self or hire pro calibrator) to CalMAN AutoCal, you probably shouldn't upgrade to firmware 04.10.31."

[SamuriHL]

:D That's just insane! :D Just choose a UHD bright comedy during the day :)

Meh, I do most of my movie watching at night anyway. I just have WAY too much ambient light during day time. (A couple picture windows on both sides of the house and a very open living room/kitchen design). At night, lighting is almost perfect.


As for Vincent's opinion, yea, no kidding. I 100% agree with that and need to find a way to go back to the previous version. Cause it SUCKS.

[chros]

Guys, I need your professional help, the title says all. But I *can* display 1080p resolution on it! Wtf?!

Symptoms:
- everything is good until the sign-in screen of Windows (probably before the drivers get loaded), straight after that Windows goes nuts:
-- completely grey background with only a mouse cursor on both external monitor and on TV for about 30-60 sec
-- after that the sign-in screen is presented and Windows try to sign in automatically over-and-over again, black/green/sign-in screen is flashing
-- you can't do/see anything (no ctrl+alt+del, etc) , just reset / turn-off button
- if PC is connected straight to the B8 (no AVR in the chain):
-- the above happens even if the TV is off (standby) !!!
- if AVR is in the chain and B8 is Off:
-- Windows works fine on the external monitor (seems that the AVR blocks the connection between the PC and TV in this case)
- if AVR is in the chain and B8 is On:
-- Windows goes nuts as above described

What does this tell us?

I tried out all the following (I aged couple years during 2 days :) ):
- 5 (4 different) HDMI cables
- different HDMI ports of the TV
- different wall sockets for the TV and PC (I thought maybe some interference)
- no matter if "HDMI Deep color" is On/Off in the TV settings
- no matter if HDMI label is set to HDMI X / PC in the TV settings
- disconnected the other external monitor
- took out the AVR from the chain
- took out the GPU and put it back in the PC
- reset the PC BIOS (just in case)
- removed the nvidia driver with DDU and installed a different one
- tried to hook up my laptop (optimus hd400 + gt650m on Win8.1) but no matter what I did (e.g. delete the b8 in CRU and restart) there wasn't any 4k resolution to choose from in Intel control panel :D
- and who knows what else that I don't remember :)

The whole thing started like this:
- since my previous TV was/is also an LG, Windows didn't recognised the new device and I didn't have 4k resolution to choose from (neither in Win settings nor in nvidia settings)
- I manually deleted the existing TV device from Windows settings and after the reboot nothing has been changed: still wasn't any 4k resolution
- deleted all the LG devices from CRU (!) and after reboot the new device appeared correctly (checked in CRU) BUT - luckily - still set to 1080p (as the previous was). That's why I knew that this resolution works!
- after that I tried to select a 4k resolution and that's when the sh*t just hit the fan :)

Right now I can only think of 3 things:
- Windows issue -> reinstall is required
- TV firmware issue (*.36 , the latest one) -> try to revert manually back to a previous one and pray :)
- PC hardware issue / incompability -> I don't have a clue how could I diagnose this part

The specs in my signature (except for the TV).

[Asmodian]

My first guess is something CRU did (Windows reinstall), it is at that part of the story where it sounds like things went wrong.

[Sunset1982]

it's supposed to be notable better in term of banding

You mean better than the LG tv?

[huhn]

back when the Martian movie thingy was tested yes the sony was able to present the sky without a ton of bending.

[chros]

My first guess is something CRU did (Windows reinstall), it is at that part of the story where it sounds like things went wrong.
Yep, thanks. What popped into my mind this morning is that I could test my system from booting Live OSs from USB (before reinstalling the whole thing), e.g. Ubuntu Linux or Win10.
I just searched for Win10 Live and we can create USB boot media with: Rufus (https://rufus.ie/), WinToUSB (https://www.easyuefi.com/wintousb/)
So, that's what I will try first. :)

[chros]

... I could test my system from booting Live OSs from USB (before reinstalling the whole thing), e.g. Ubuntu Linux or Win10.

Thanks, Asmodian, reinstalling Win10 solved the issue, I don't know what happened. I thought LTSB is rock stable but ... ) Before that I tried it out with Ubuntu Live usb pendrive to rule out hardware issues (WinToGo was absolutely unusable (slow) on a pendrive).

[chros]

I. SDR/HDR10 in PC mode on B8 (firmware 04.10.36), test results (details in my signature):

*Chroma 4:4:4*
- the result is really close to 4:4:4 (although not exactly) in 23p as well both with SDR and HDR10 content, tested with:
-- ChromaRes.png (http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png), test2 (http://cdn.avsforum.com/b/be/be355246_vbattach233862.png), Quick brown fox (http://www.ozone3d.net/public/jegx/201412/chroma-subsampling-test-4k-tv.png), etc.
-- Ted pointed out that it's not fully 4:4:4 (https://www.displaycalibrations.com/lg_2018_oled_profiling_using_lightspace.html) (under "Differences between YCbCr and RGB-Video" section) (although the difference is still huge compared to 4:2:2 in normal (HDMI) mode):
--- this can be visible on the yellow and the bottom row text of Quick brown fox (http://www.ozone3d.net/public/jegx/201412/chroma-subsampling-test-4k-tv.png) image

*23p judder free playback*
- there *is* chroma 4:4:4 *and* judder free 23p/24p/etc playback in PC mode!!! (stutter is still there but that's normal on OLEDs), tested with:
-- custom timing 23p with CRU (with the help of madvr) (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998)
-- testufo (https://www.testufo.com/) and judder_23.976fps*.mp4 file in Mehanik HDR10 test pattern (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2943380-hdr10-test-patterns-set.html)
--- the above tests were validated by switching between normal (RealCinema Off and On) and PC modes
-- BFi is unusable (flickering darker picture)

*Banding*
SDR content:
- there's banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is minimal between the 2); tested with:
-- grayscale ramps files in AVSHD 709 test pattern set (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/948496-avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration.html)
-- this is visible with the above test files even from a normal viewing distance (~3 meters), but it's *barely* noticeable with normal content
HDR10 content:
- there's heavy (!) banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is clearly visible between the 2); tested with:
-- grayscale ramps files in Mehanik HDR10 test pattern (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2943380-hdr10-test-patterns-set.html)
-- this is clearly visible with the above test files even from a normal viewing distance (~3 meters), and it's present with normal content as well

So, for me, since 23p judder free playback is available in PC mode, near chroma 4:4:4 rules out everything, so I'm quite happy about it!

II. SDR/HDR10 Normal HDMI mode (non-PC mode) notes:

*Chroma 4:4:4*
- not supported, only chroma 4:2:2 (in every refresh rates)

*23p judder free playback*
- supported *if* Real Cinema is On *and* True Motion is Off
- stutter is still present but that's normal on OLEDs
- BFi is unusable (flickering darker picture)

*Banding*
- 8bit: no banding
- 10bit: minimal banding only (not visible from normal viewing distance even when using test patterns)

*Strange firmware bug* ?
- overscan kicked in native 4k resolution when mpc-hc/be+madvr changed file or was closed. wtf?! :)
-- changing resolution / frequency doesn't help anything
-- only switching TV Off then On fixes the problem: but it only last until the first use of mpc-hc/be :)
- the above problem is non-existing in PC mode!

*Note about HDR10 and madVR*
- on a HDR capable display "HDR passthrough" is the recommended setting! (although madVR can do dynamic tonemapping in recent test builds but the image becomes way too soft compared to passthrough)
- B8 tonemapping (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/post-58739264) with different HDR10 metadata
- Dynamic Tonemapping can be enabled in the TV: this will also touch the lower end (0-100 nits) not just the highlight range (>100 nits)
-- it's a matter of preference whether to use it (I do like it)

IV. External 3DLUT creation for SDR content:

*Notes*
- the display only can be profiled reliably (creating a 3dlut) using SDR content (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lg-2017-oled-calibration-thread-and-settings.2853954/page-66#post-55310736)!!!
-- to auto calibrate it with HDR10 we would need Calman AutoCal to adjust 1024 grayscale values and the 3 RGB values only! (not possible to create a 3dlut (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/post-57320220) with AutoCal either for HDR10)
-- Dolby Vision would need a separate signal generator!
- the display can even behave strange (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lg-2017-oled-calibration-thread-and-settings.2853954/post-55316570) due to (mostly) ABL behaviour (see below) using SDR content
- we will create only one DCI-P3 3dlut for night usage and madVR will auto convert other formats (e.g. BT.709)
- note: out of 3 created 3dluts only 1 was acceptable after checking it with dark scenes, so you also might have to create multiple ones if you won't be lucky

*ABL behaviour*
- 2018 models have at least 3 types of ABL (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-oled-c8-owners-and-discussion.2162797/post-28296896): ASBL (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv.html), ABL (can't be turned off) and ANSD (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk.2962154/post-57859488) (can be turned off (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk.2962154/post-60020683) recently)
- highest nit setting with SDR content where ABL still doesn't kick in: 39 Oled light -> 141 nits (so rtings (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b8-oled#comparison_618) did a good job)
-- tested with: meter + 100% full screen white @ D65 white level calibration
- hence I set oled light using SDR content to 33 (~120 nits) for night and 39 (~140 nits) for day usage (ISF Bright and Dark presets)

*Color gamut, Gamma and Black level TV settings*
- Gamut: "Wide" option is the closest to DCI-P3, tested with meter + HCFR
- Gamma (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/madvr-argyllcms.1471169/post-40108362): 2.4 for night and 2.2 for day usage
- Black level needs to be set to "High" on the TV, Full range (0-255) output has to be selected in graphics driver and PC Levels (0-255) in madVR

*MadVR calibration settings*:
- "display is already calibrated"
- DCI-P3 + 2.4 power gamma (for night)
- "send bt.2020 to display" must be *unchecked* :
-- although this option instructs B8 to switch to bt.2020 mode even if "Auto" option is selected (TV correctly reports it) but it results in oversaturated colors in every

*DisplayCal settings for SDR content*:
- select "madVR SDR profile (D65, BT.709)" profile
- device tab: enable LG WRGB spectral correction
- 3dlut tab: DCI-P3 D65 + 2.4 gamma + relative + 100% output offset

*Newer approach*:
- SDR with HDR effect (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1947198#post1947198)

III. Communicating with B8 (firmware 04.10.25)

This part is here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1920372#post1920372).

[huhn]

are these "calibrator" taking 3D LUT into account?
just use native to do the gamut mapping with the 3d LUT.

[chros]

are these "calibrator" taking 3D LUT into account?
:D No, they aren't :)
just use native to do the gamut mapping with the 3d LUT.
Yes, thanks, but which one is it? Wide?

[huhn]

i don't know you have a meter so well use it i guess and give send BT 2020 a try the TV may response differently.

[SamuriHL]

So, I tested SDR on B8 (firmware 04.10.36) and I settled down with PC mode, the results (details in my signature):
- in normal mode (non PC mode) overscan kicked in native 4k resolution when mpc-hc/be+madvr changed file or was closed. wtf?! :)
-- changing resolution / frequency doesn't help anything
-- only switching TV Off then On fixes the problem: but it only last until the first use of mpc-hc/be :)
- the above problem is non-existing in PC mode!


This problem can be fixed if you want to. I went through this same nonsense when I switched back from PC mode to standard mode and I was eventually able to fix it. I'd have to go digging in the settings again to find which one fixed it but I had to toggle something off and back on again and then it worked. I think it's a really weird bug in their firmware. In any case, if you ever want this fixed let me know and I'll go hunt it down.

[VBB]

chros, huhn is correct. Calibrators don't use "wide" for normal calibrations. For 3D LUTs, you want the display in its widest (native) mode, so for the LGs "wide" is the proper setting. "Send BT.2020" doesn't make a difference here.

As to the overscan issue, strangely enough this happened to me very recently on my C7. First time ever since I bought it in 2017. Hasn't done it since.

Did you actually verify that 4:4:4 works below 60Hz? I tested everything back when I first got the TV and noticed that the LGs are seriously limited in PC mode.

[VBB]

Oh, and my OLED light is at 45. I never notice any ABL. ASBL was disabled in the service menu.

[chros]

i don't know you have a meter

:D You are absolutely right.

overscan issue, ... happened to me very recently on my C7

This problem can be fixed if you want to. I went through this same nonsense ... and I was eventually able to fix it ... find which one fixed it but I had to toggle something off and back on again ... if you ever want this fixed let me know and I'll go hunt it down.

Thank You guys, at least I know I'm not alone :)
SamuriHL, it would be nice if you could find it / link it, if it's not a big hustle to do so. I'll add it to the above post of mine then. Thanks!

chros, huhn is correct. Calibrators don't use "wide" for normal calibrations. For 3D LUTs, you want the display in its widest (native) mode, so for the LGs "wide" is the proper setting. "Send BT.2020" doesn't make a difference here.

Thanks, I know that you already told me this and you were right, Wide is the correct one, but using my chain/system, "Send BT.2020" needs to be *unchecked*, otherwise I get oversaturated colors (see the above post).

Did you actually verify that 4:4:4 works below 60Hz? I tested everything back when I first got the TV and noticed that the LGs are seriously limited in PC mode.

Yes, I did, added the to above post.

Oh, and my OLED light is at 45. I never notice any ABL. ASBL was disabled in the service menu.

Thanks, I haven't turned off ASBL in InStart menu yet (I haven't seen it in action yet). I've also added ABL section to the above post.

[SamuriHL]

Thank You guys, at least I know I'm not alone :)
SamuriHL, it would be nice if you could find it / link it, if it's not a big hustle to do so. I'll add it to the above post of mine then. Thanks!


So go into picture settings, under Aspect Ratio set it to original and then Just Scan On. Auto did not work for me. Once I changed this, the stupid problem has gone away permanently.

[chros]

So go into picture settings, under Aspect Ratio set it to original and then Just Scan On.
Thanks, I'll give it a try and report back. It's set to "Just scan" now (both in normal and PC mode).

[SamuriHL]

Yea, and like I said previously, when I switch modes from PC back to standard, I have to go toggle Just Scan to off and then back on. So I really think they got some weird bug going on.

[chros]

Since I'm almost finished (?) the SDR setup, can you help me with HDR passthrough?
- what TV settings do you recommend? (either in normal or PC mode)
- what PC / madvr settings?
- creating 3dlut for this (if it's achievable)

Thanks

[svengun]

there is always the last years version the MSRP for the 2019 LG much higher then the last year sony model.

i hardly believe HDMI 2.1 is worth that we are still missing GPU with it anyway.

I'm kinda expecting a firware update for that, aren't you ?

In my case for the RTX 2070

[huhn]

unlikely

[ashlar42]

Considering the newer LGs have the possibility of doing 3DLUT calibration automated through Calman, is there any point in having madVR handle an externally created one? I suspect not but I thought it was worth asking. Thank you.

[chros]

Good question, I wonder there's anybody compared the 2 (in SDR mode, since you can't use external one with HDR passthrough) ...
Since I don't have Calman (for now?), I only made a 3dlut for SDR content and HDR10 is untouched.

[Warner306]

Considering the newer LGs have the possibility of doing 3DLUT calibration automated through Calman, is there any point in having madVR handle an externally created one? I suspect not but I thought it was worth asking. Thank you.

The accuracy of the Calman Autocal is not that great and still well below DisplayCal, so the external 3D LUT should produce a better result. If HDR is profiled, however, tone mapping is involved, so the curves used by DisplayCal may or may not be better than the tone curves used by Calman.

HDR 3D LUTs are also static, so creating them with madVR at least provides you with the option to create as many static LUTs as you want and select the desired 3D LUT curve before playback with hdr profile rules. You would have to keep out-of-gamut values sent to the 3D LUT to a minimum by pre-measuring all of your HDR movies with madMeasureHDR to ensure you know the exact peak brightness of each source to select the right mastering peak 3D LUT for each title. Still not as great as dynamic tone mapping solutions though...

[ashlar42]

Still not as great as dynamic tone mapping solutions though...I was led to believe this was relevant for projectors only. Was I wrong? Or are you referring to LG's built-in dynamic tone mapping solution?

[SamuriHL]

It's relevant for anything that has to tone map. Which at present means everything because I don't seem to have a 10000 nit display kicking around. :D So it depends on what you trust to do your tone mapping. The theory being that if you have something like my C8 and you have madvr tone map to ~700 nits, the C8 will have little to nothing to do because the video is already within the max nit range for the display. So no, it's not only relevant for projectors at all.

[ashlar42]

It's relevant for anything that has to tone map. Which at present means everything because I don't seem to have a 10000 nit display kicking around. :D So it depends on what you trust to do your tone mapping. The theory being that if you have something like my C8 and you have madvr tone map to ~700 nits, the C8 will have little to nothing to do because the video is already within the max nit range for the display. So no, it's not only relevant for projectors at all.
This is curious, as I initially understood things as you described them here to be. But then I read different opinions.
Is it possible to completely disable LG's tone mapping, if madVR does all the work already? In the case of preanalyzed files, it should do that on a frame by frame level, which makes me think it should provide the best results. Better probably than what Dolby Vision can achieve (if that works on a scene by scene basis, as I remember).

[chros]

Is it possible to completely disable LG's tone mapping, if madVR does all the work already?
No.

In the case of preanalyzed files, it should do that on a frame by frame level, which makes me think it should provide the best results. Better probably than what Dolby Vision can achieve (if that works on a scene by scene basis, as I remember).
Let's not mix the result of an algo with the director's intent (if there's any :D) ...

[SamuriHL]

Sadly we can't disable the built in tone mapping but if you send a frame that is lower than the max nits of the tv then it shouldn't reprocess it.

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[Warner306]

This is curious, as I initially understood things as you described them here to be. But then I read different opinions.
Is it possible to completely disable LG's tone mapping, if madVR does all the work already? In the case of preanalyzed files, it should do that on a frame by frame level, which makes me think it should provide the best results. Better probably than what Dolby Vision can achieve (if that works on a scene by scene basis, as I remember).

Dolby Vision can be per frame or per scene at the discretion of the person doing the grading. But it can also include trim passes where the content is graded to a lower peak brightness by the colorist. If the display has a good Dolby Vision implementation (like an LG OLED), it should have a significant advantage over HDR10 content, which puts the entire onus on interpreting the source values on the display. Dolby Vision is designed to give the creator complete control over what the video will look like on the end display. Its failing besides its expense is that some displays do a poor job of reproducing the Dolby Vision standard (like Sony OLEDs), which is the fault of the display manufacturers more than Dolby Vision.

[SamuriHL]

And the fact that it's a closed system. That's a pretty big issue. I hold out hope that eventually madshi can do something with hdr10+ for those of us on non hdr10+ hardware... looking at you lg. Being able to use the hdr10+ metadata to drive tone mapping might in theory give us better results. But Dolby vision being closed is not helping.

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[Warner306]

Yeah, I don't know if external devices can actually make use of the HDR10+ metadata or not. HDR10+ has embedded metadata that specifies the tone curve to be used for each scene. Vincent at HDTV Test says HDR10+ has been a disappointment so far because it appears to make no visual difference at all with displays with a peak brightness above 500 nits. The embedded tone curves must only get aggressive when the display has less than 500 nits peak brightness or they don't exist above that value.

[SamuriHL]

Right, but, what I'm wondering is if madshi can make use of that scene by scene metadata to enhance his own tone mapping algorithm. I don't really know, it's more a question than anything. Honestly I wish LG would simply add it since it wouldn't cost them anything to do so.

[Warner306]

If the peak brightness of each scene is reported in the metadata, maybe it can be utilized. I honestly think madMeasureHDR measurements are already plenty accurate enough. When I import content into Davinci Resolve and look at the HDR scopes panel, the frame peaks reported in madVR appear to be almost accurate to the pixel of where the frame peaks on the waveform in Davinci resolve.

Take this waveform, for example. It is difficult to see the frame peak in this screenshot, but madMeasureHDR says it peaks at exactly 100 nits and the highest peak in Davinci Resolve is right at code value 512 (100 nits):

http://upload.vstanced.com/images/2019/08/03/5017308b45867b391c359093d2d10e48.png

madMeasureHDR reports this frame peaks at exactly 1,000 nits, which is code value 768. And Resolve also shows the highest peak is at exactly 768 (1,000 nits):

http://upload.vstanced.com/images/2019/08/03/7f13759e69fd74fb4c507350004de945.png

The HDR10 metadata used by madVR is already quite accurate. An equally accurate way to segregate a movie into scenes without visible brightness changes is what is missing.

[SamuriHL]

Madshi has worked really hard to avoid big brightness changes within scenes. They spent a LONG time on figuring out how to properly identify scene changes so they can apply brightness changes properly. It's gotten very good. For measurements they already know, to the frame, the brightness which gives madvr a fighting chance of avoiding brightness flashes. It's quite frankly amazing what they've been able to do which is why I use it the way I do. I was simply wondering if HDR10+ would offer anything additional over what madvr does. It might not. And that's ok.

[Warner306]

A neural network that can detect scene changes should be the most accurate way to detect scene changes for the live algorithm with the fewest number of false scene detections. I don't know if Soulnight's scene detection improvements help you with HDR output, but they are already working pretty well with HDR to SDR output and have done a good job of using the measurement data to predict any brightness jumps.

[SamuriHL]

I've not tried their tool to make the measurement files dynamic yet. It's on my list to get to but I need to dedicate some time to it so I can properly tweak it and test it against my current settings, etc. I just haven't had a chance since I started my new job in May to dedicate that much time. I'm already very happy with the results I'm getting with the latest test build and the measurement files. It works extremely well.

[Warner306]

Soulnight's tool will change the display target nits dynamically and not simply dynamically alter the tone curve shape, so it can't be used with HDR output. I knew that already, but forgot about it. It is reserved for HDR to SDR tone mapping where you use the relative SDR gamma curve to rescale the image to different target peaks.