MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread [Archive] - Page 3

quietvoid

13th September 2021, 01:58

He noticed oversaturation doing this with mpv, which is the same I noticed when I tested the 3DLUT with madVR.

Is this expected? If not, what do we think is going wrong?

I think it is expected, converting to 709 is not the same as keeping 709 in 2020 container.

I've tested this out by reencoding the S&M benchmark but I don't know if the method is accurate to compare WCG.
The final video has the original WCG clip on the left, and the 709 on the right.

VapourSynth script:
src_path = Path("SM.mkv")
src = core.ffms2.Source(src_path)

src = src.resize.Spline36(width=1920, height=1080)

src2 = src.resize.Spline36(matrix_in_s="chromancl", matrix_s="chromancl", transfer_in_s="st2084", transfer_s="st2084", primaries_in_s="2020", primaries_s="709")
src2 = src2.resize.Spline36(matrix_in_s="chromancl", matrix_s="chromancl", transfer_in_s="st2084", transfer_s="st2084", primaries_in_s="709", primaries_s="2020")

src = core.std.StackHorizontal([src, src2])
src = src.std.AddBorders(top=540, bottom=540)

src.set_output()

Encoded with x265:
vspipe -y source.vpy - | x265_10 -D 10 --y4m --level-idc 5.1 --crf 12 --preset ultrafast --repeat-headers --aud --hrd --no-cutree --colorprim 9 --colormatrix 9 --transfer 16 --chromaloc=2 --hdr10-opt --master-display "G(8500,39850)B(6550,2300)R(35400,14600)WP(15635,16450)L(100000000,50)" --max-cll=10000,1616 --input - --output default.hevc

You can find a snippet of the video here: https://mega.nz/file/MY9xVYxQ#1MJO-T7iCzMrTMjRCL8Jq4T6Gu5dRQoH0w066adsHB4
At least to me it makes sense when playing on the TV.

aron7awol

13th September 2021, 03:51

That S&M demo looks great! Thank you!

Balling

14th September 2021, 18:35

Especially the second is really amazing, no need to click around and wait to switch between PC and non-PC mode! Although it takes a second or so, just like when switching into/out from Game preset.

Does HDMI 2.0b banding happen there too? Or is that decoding correctly like in HDMI 2.1 FRL? As for colorGamut, you can change to BT.2020 for SDR BT.2020 primaries sources?

Balling

14th September 2021, 18:41

>converting to 709 is not the same as keeping 709 in 2020 container.

No, that is the same. LG will convert BT.2020 to 709 primaries by converting to whatever the display is (99% DCI-D65 or P3 or whatever including outside DCI for low luminance colors) for SDR. If we talking about HDR, of course better not to touch PQ.

Of course in practice keeping should be better unless LG really effed up somewhere with 3DLUT or BT.2087.

huhn

14th September 2021, 19:01

did you even try to understand what they are trying to do?

Balling

14th September 2021, 19:07

This is an interesting idea, and makes sense as an approach.

I just tried it, but where I am unsure is what type of profile and tone curve I should be using. I tried a bunch of different combos of icms and tone curve settings, but gamma ended up way off in each case I tried.

For example, I tried Rec709 2.2 for source profile, and BT2020 ST2084 10000nit for destination profile, and I tried gamma 2.2, unmodified, and 2084 hard clip at 10000 nits as options for tone curve. All ended up with bad gamma.

Do I need a BT2020 gamma 2.2 icm for this? If so, I'm not sure where to get one.
There is a lot of things that are wrong with this. First of all there is no such thing as 2.2 gamma. You are supposed to use 2.4 gamma on OLED. If you file is a screen recording, you were supposed to tag it with screen profile, if it is sRGB, then use BT.709 primaries, sRGB transfer and BT.709 matrix (matrix should be the same as primaries for optimal code points utilisation). sRGB is not 2.2 gamma. That is just wrong. AdobeRGB is 2.2 gamma, just like one of older tranfers from H.273. To set correct sRGB curve you are supposed to use parametric curve encoding introduced in ICC v4, 3rd type: gamma = 2.399994 (just 2.4 actually but no perfect round), a = 0.947861, b = 0.052139, c = 0.077393, d = 0.040451. https://github.com/saucecontrol/Compact-ICC-Profiles/blob/master/profiles/sRGB-v4.icc?raw=true Same about BT.709, but as I said here 2.4 gamma is supposed to be used since PQ is display referred.

Next: you should set SDR white point. It is supposed to be 203 nits for 1000 nits container. Next, PQ should be correctly done. ICC only last year introduced PQ in ICC.

And last you need to color manage to BT.2020 primaries... matrix should also change from BT.709 to 2020-ncl and also you need to either present in RGB or YCbCr 444 or for the case of 420 change chroma siting from left to top left, using FIR.

Now after that you need to switch the display in HDR mode with BT.2020 primaries and output it.

huhn

14th September 2021, 19:39

so the answer is no...

huhn

15th September 2021, 06:17

Does HDMI 2.0b banding happen there too? Or is that decoding correctly like in HDMI 2.1 FRL?

it happens with 1.4 too

As for colorGamut, you can change to BT.2020 for SDR BT.2020 primaries sources?
yes and no LG does not use words like bt 709 or bt 2020.

>converting to 709 is not the same as keeping 709 in 2020 container.

No, that is the same. LG will convert BT.2020 to 709 primaries by converting to whatever the display is (99% DCI-D65 or P3 or whatever including outside DCI for low luminance colors) for SDR. If we talking about HDR, of course better not to touch PQ.
why would they? he wants to clip/convert the gamut and beeen able to switch between both wide "bt2020" bt709 because converting bt 709 or bt 709 in bt 2020 are not the same

Of course in practice keeping should be better unless LG really effed up somewhere with 3DLUT or BT.2087.
what has the EOTF to do with this if we just want to do gamut mapping?
There is a lot of things that are wrong with this.
we will see...
First of all there is no such thing as 2.2 gamma.
but there clearly is and that's actually needed for tone mapping.
You are supposed to use 2.4 gamma on OLED.
gamma is a choice usually based on room lightning not a presentation technology. BTW. LG correctly sets to gamma 2.2 (you will not get is but that a different story)
If you file is a screen recording, you were supposed to tag it with screen profile, if it is sRGB,...
no if he screen records or not this will not change the source characteristics in general if it is a video file with bt 709 it is even now sill bt 709 because nothing changed the sRGB in windows calibration is irrelevant for that.
...then use BT.709 primaries, sRGB transfer and BT.709 matrix (matrix should be the same as primaries for optimal code points utilisation). sRGB is not 2.2 gamma. That is just wrong.
so where did anyone claim sRGB is gamma 2.2 while it uses gamma 2.2 it's starts flat giving it an effective gamma of ~2.4 but why would that matter for anything here at all. this is about using a TV with a video player where comes sRGB into the player?

AdobeRGB is 2.2 gamma, just like one of older tranfers from H.273. To set correct sRGB curve you are supposed to use parametric curve encoding introduced in ICC v4, 3rd type: gamma = 2.399994 (just 2.4 actually but no perfect round), a = 0.947861, b = 0.052139, c = 0.077393, d = 0.040451. https://github.com/saucecontrol/Compact-ICC-Profiles/blob/master/profiles/sRGB-v4.icc?raw=true Same about BT.709, but as I said here 2.4 gamma is supposed to be used since PQ is display referred.
no gamma 2.2 is need if PQ tone mapping is needed because that's what is assumed as the source gamma. and if it would be any other gamma nothing would change because it's just for relativity as long as both the input and the assumption match the results is valid.
Next: you should set SDR white point. It is supposed to be 203 nits for 1000 nits container. Next, PQ should be correctly done. ICC only last year introduced PQ in ICC.
you really have no clue what we are doing here right? this is completely irrelevant.
And last you need to color manage to BT.2020 primaries... matrix should also change from BT.709 to 2020-ncl and also you need to either present in RGB or YCbCr 444 or for the case of 420 change chroma siting from left to top left, using FIR.
windows works in RGB so it doesn't matter what the chroma loc on the GPU driver is because the GPU driver is doing the chroma subsampling and as long as the GPU HDMI and the end device agree on the same chroma loc you are fine but you have no way to change this anyway.
Now after that you need to switch the display in HDR mode with BT.2020 primaries and output it.

maybe now is a good timing to tell you that windows "can't" gamut map using icc files.

huhn

15th September 2021, 07:23

took me a couple of mins but here is a 3D LUT that should work.

i just run into an unexpected issue a bt 2020 profile with a bt 709 tone curve is created with gamma 2.6 in displaycal while a bt 709 profile with a bt 709 tone curve is created with 2.2 i was expectign it to be the same so it doesn't matter what the number is if that would be the case.

after i matched them it works "perfectly" now.
if you play a bt 709 and set madVR to this device is calibrated to bt 2020 or you use this 3D LUT you will get the "same" results.
it's not perfect there still seems to be a gamma difference in the 0.0x range if not 0.00x

but here you go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MpUyFI2v7BwFsg7oIGezGkWeBOGeCZj7/view?usp=sharing

not compressed i could not upload it for some reason if i do that.

Balling

15th September 2021, 19:06

"it happens with 1.4 too"

Do not have any hdmi 1.4 devices, only 2.0.

"and no LG does not use words like bt 709 or bt 2020."

On LG CX there is an override menu with it, so yes, they do.

"what has the EOTF to do with this if we just want to do gamut mapping?"

BT.2087 has indeed nothing to do with EOTF. Mostly. Though it indeed color manages on linear light.

"LG correctly sets to gamma 2.2"

The fact that it greys out gamma 2.2 means nothing. Yes, there are some appearance of underlying hacks of 2.2 gamma, but that is not an argument. As for "gamma is a choice usually based on room lightning not a presentation technology" you cannot do such a choice with PQ, not really, it is absolute and is meant to be looked in dark room. So there is no point, 2.4 gamma must be applied. Also, BT.1886 depends on presentation tech.

"not this will not change the source characteristics in general"

You are wrong. Use mpv with target-trc=srgb and you will see.

"while it uses gamma 2.2 it's starts flat giving it an effective gamma of ~2.4 but why would that matter for anything here at all."

Because sRGB uses 2.4 gamma internally with linear spline that makes it almost 2.2. Just like BT.709 OETF that is 1/0.45= 2.2222... gamma, yet is 1.961 gamma since it has a linear spline.

"windows works in RGB so it doesn't matter what the chroma loc on the GPU driver is because the GPU driver is doing the chroma subsampling and as long as the GPU HDMI and the end device agree on the same chroma loc you are fine but you have no way to change this anyway."

It is hard to make Windows work in YCbCr, but possible. You cannot control HDMI sample location. What I was talking about was SDR convertion of a source to top left chroma.

huhn

15th September 2021, 20:07

Do not have any hdmi 1.4 devices, only 2.0.
HDMI is backwards compatible just disable deep what ever HDMI stuff in TVs for connection and they will use HDMI 1.4 and again completely pointless.
On LG CX there is an override menu with it, so yes, they do.
i have an CX here no. i can find bt 1886 which is absolutely pointless for this TV. and if you would try to follow what he wants to test what's your point?
BT.2087 has indeed nothing to do with EOTF. Mostly. Though it indeed color manages on linear light.

eotf... what has this to do with the topic?

The fact that it greys out gamma 2.2 means nothing. Yes, there are some appearance of underlying hacks of 2.2 gamma, but that is not an argument. As for "gamma is a choice usually based on room lightning not a presentation technology" you cannot do such a choice with PQ, not really, it is absolute and is meant to be looked in dark room. So there is no point, 2.4 gamma must be applied. Also, BT.1886 depends on presentation tech.
it doesn't gray it out it uses it by default. and that also doesn't mean you will get 2.2.
PQ does not care about the gamma and this is a madVR thread and madVR needs gamma 2.2 to tone map if you like it or not the TV doesn't care what you use because it'S all about relativity.
gamma is relative to room brightness if you have problem with that have a problem with that.
and about PQ is absolute dolby said no. looks like they found out that not everyone side in a dark room.

You are wrong. Use mpv with target-trc=srgb and you will see.
you just tell it to change it...
so it does. cool. so why am i wrong now?
you just tell mpv that your display is calibrated to sRGB instead of BT 709 is it?
Because sRGB uses 2.4 gamma internally with linear spline that makes it almost 2.2. Just like BT.709 OETF that is 1/0.45= 2.2222... gamma, yet is 1.961 gamma since it has a linear spline.
so now bt 709 is gamma 2.22 (which is mathematical correct) not 2.4? are you use we don't have to use gamma 2.22 now because you said so?
It is hard to make Windows work in YCbCr, but possible. You cannot control HDMI sample location. What I was talking about was SDR convertion of a source to top left chroma.
you can use what ever chroma loc you want and even if you convert to SDR it doesn't matter because the GPU driver is still doing the conversation so what's your point?
you know you can define it while encoding...

so because windows can work in ycbcr what has this to do with anything here why would you chroma subsample in the first place why would you even mention it?

aron7awol

15th September 2021, 20:21

took me a couple of mins but here is a 3D LUT that should work.
Thanks! I'll give it a try.

Since you obviously have a MUCH better handle of this stuff than I do, can you think of a way to go a step further and compare something like 90% of P3 with 100%? Obviously "90% of P3" doesn't tell you exactly where the coverage is falling short, but it's just an example. One might choose to hit ~90% by simply pulling the green primary back while leaving red and blue at the limits, or something else. Essentially, I think I'm asking if it's possible to set arbitrary primaries rather than do a full gamut?

I looked into doing similar with VapourSynth but it seems it only has specific presets, and it would require modifying the source and recompiling, which I'm afraid I am not set up for. I did manage to get VapourSynth working and use the script from @quietvoid which was very helpful! I was actually surprised and how subtle the differences often are even between 709 and P3, which makes me wonder even more how subtle the difference must be between 90% of P3 and 100% or similar.

Balling

16th September 2021, 07:50

"so now bt 709 is gamma 2.22 (which is mathematical correct) not 2.4? are you use we don't have to use gamma 2.22 now because you said so?"

No, bt.709 is gamma 1.961. The inverse of 1.961 is also called 1.961. Yet, BT.709's EOTF is not an inverse. Okay? Oogh. It is different because camera is supposed to be in much lighter environment! It is called dim surround compensation.

"i have an CX here no. i can find bt 1886 which is absolutely pointless for"

That is how you are supposed to watch video, BUT NOT WEB PAGES. Okay? There is a secret menu where you can override stuff on a CX.

"it doesn't gray it out it uses it by default"

No, it does not. It uses PQ or HLG, which is not gamma. BT.709 and sRGB are also not gamma, only BT.1886 can be called gamma, but only on perfect display like OLED.

"gamma is relative to room brightness if you have problem with that have a problem with that."

The correct term is scene referred. AND NO, PQ IS DISPLAY referred. You cannot manipulate it, Dolby IQ being an exception. But if you will read the patent on it, it is insane. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2018119161A1/en

"you just tell mpv that your display is calibrated to sRGB instead of BT 709 is it?"

Instead of BT.1886, yes. The fact of the matter it is the only player that can do correct change of transfer, except Apple of course. Absolutely the same result you can get by just changing to BT.1886 in LG TV display. The result is darker and removes blooming.

Balling

16th September 2021, 08:21

@aslar42 "By opening CRU I see no trace of 2160p23 and 2160p59 resolutions, only 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60 (plus 100 and 120)."

Well, open your eyes. There is no such thing as 23 or 59. There is only 24/1.001 and 60/1.001 or 24.000 and 60.000 and it is almost perfectly refered to as such in new windows 10 display menu. Same about 30, 120. THOSE are included in TV resolutions (VICs) integer rate, PC must switch the alternate clock! DTD only support 3 decimals so they are useless.
Do not play with CRU, it corrupts EDID. Yes, even after the update. Also, you will have to apply the change in registry by hand.

An example:

Video Data Block:
VIC 96: 3840x2160 50.000 Hz 16:9 112.500 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 95: 3840x2160 30.000 Hz 16:9 67.500 kHz 297.000 MHz
VIC 94: 3840x2160 25.000 Hz 16:9 56.250 kHz 297.000 MHz
VIC 93: 3840x2160 24.000 Hz 16:9 54.000 kHz 297.000 MHz
VIC 16: 1920x1080 60.000 Hz 16:9 67.500 kHz 148.500 MHz
VIC 5: 1920x1080i 60.000 Hz 16:9 33.750 kHz 74.250 MHz
VIC 4: 1280x720 60.000 Hz 16:9 45.000 kHz 74.250 MHz
VIC 3: 720x480 59.940 Hz 16:9 31.469 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 2: 720x480 59.940 Hz 4:3 31.469 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 1: 640x480 59.940 Hz 4:3 31.469 kHz 25.175 MHz
VIC 17: 720x576 50.000 Hz 4:3 31.250 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 18: 720x576 50.000 Hz 16:9 31.250 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 19: 1280x720 50.000 Hz 16:9 37.500 kHz 74.250 MHz
VIC 20: 1920x1080i 50.000 Hz 16:9 28.125 kHz 74.250 MHz
VIC 31: 1920x1080 50.000 Hz 16:9 56.250 kHz 148.500 MHz
VIC 14: 1440x480 59.940 Hz 4:3 31.469 kHz 54.000 MHz
VIC 15: 1440x480 59.940 Hz 16:9 31.469 kHz 54.000 MHz
VIC 29: 1440x576 50.000 Hz 4:3 31.250 kHz 54.000 MHz
VIC 30: 1440x576 50.000 Hz 16:9 31.250 kHz 54.000 MHz
VIC 6: 1440x480i 59.940 Hz 4:3 15.734 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 7: 1440x480i 59.940 Hz 16:9 15.734 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 21: 1440x576i 50.000 Hz 4:3 15.625 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 22: 1440x576i 50.000 Hz 16:9 15.625 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 97: 3840x2160 60.000 Hz 16:9 135.000 kHz 594.000 MHz

Here every 60.000, 24.000, 30.000 also support alternate clock of /1.001 (except VIC 1, 2, 3, 6, 7 and those that have 50 Hz). Simple as that!!

Same about those, BTW (except 100 Hz and 50 Hz, again).

YCbCr 4:2:0 Capability Map Data Block:
VIC 97: 3840x2160 60.000 Hz 16:9 135.000 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 96: 3840x2160 50.000 Hz 16:9 112.500 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 118: 3840x2160 120.000 Hz 16:9 270.000 kHz 1188.000 MHz
VIC 117: 3840x2160 100.000 Hz 16:9 225.000 kHz 1188.000 MHz
VIC 102: 4096x2160 60.000 Hz 256:135 135.000 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 101: 4096x2160 50.000 Hz 256:135 112.500 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 219: 4096x2160 120.000 Hz 256:135 270.000 kHz 1188.000 MHz
VIC 218: 4096x2160 100.000 Hz 256:135 225.000 kHz 1188.000 MHz

huhn

16th September 2021, 10:20

That is how you are supposed to watch video, BUT NOT WEB PAGES. Okay? There is a secret menu where you can override stuff on a CX.
we are in a thread about madVR and oled TVs let's talk about webpages...

No, it does not. It uses PQ or HLG, which is not gamma. BT.709 and sRGB are also not gamma, only BT.1886 can be called gamma, but only on perfect display like OLED.
but we are using madVR here to tone map it get it please.
on an oled bt 1886 is 2.4 making it pointless.

"gamma is relative to room brightness if you have problem with that have a problem with that."

The correct term is scene referred. AND NO, PQ IS DISPLAY referred. You cannot manipulate it, Dolby IQ being an exception. But if you will read the patent on it, it is insane. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2018119161A1/en
last time we do gamma here not PQ. a 3D LUT for PQ to PQ is no possible here. and we have to use 2.2 because that's expected
"you just tell mpv that your display is calibrated to sRGB instead of BT 709 is it?"

[qoute]Instead of BT.1886, yes. The fact of the matter it is the only player that can do correct change of transfer, except Apple of course. Absolutely the same result you can get by just changing to BT.1886 in LG TV display. The result is darker and removes blooming.[/QUOTE]

selecting bt 1886 is the same as selecting gamma 2.4 in them what has this to do with apple or any other source device.

the gamma selection after calibration and only if you aim for the same gamma will make sure that an untouched input image will be displayed with the selected gamma.
completely irrelevant for this topic here. even if i calibrated my TV to gamma 2.4 the 3d LUT has to be 2.2 for the destination if we want to tone map end of story.

Well, open your eyes. There is no such thing as 23 or 59. There is only 24/1.001 and 60/1.001 or 24.000 and 60.000 and it is almost perfectly refered to as such in new windows 10 display menu. Same about 30, 120. THOSE are included in TV resolutions (VICs) integer rate, PC must switch the alternate clock! DTD only support 3 decimals so they are useless.
Do not play with CRU, it corrupts EDID. Yes, even after the update. Also, you will have to apply the change in registry by hand.

23, 29, 59 and much more exist they are synonymous.

flaviowolff

16th September 2021, 17:58

Quick question, guys:
Is motion messed up somehow if Real Cinema is off (like in PC mode) but the PC output is set to 23.976 or 119.88 Hz?
It's kind of confusing to me whether the 5:5 pulldown from Real Cinema is necessary when the source is already outputting an integer multiple of the content frame rate.
(not talking about smooth motion)
Ty

huhn

16th September 2021, 22:03

120 is without a doubt not doing a 3:2(6:4) 23p in and out side of PC mode are also perfect on my device but i have also a flawless PC mode so that'S not worth a lot.

flaviowolff

16th September 2021, 23:24

120 is without a doubt not doing a 3:2(6:4) 23p in and out side of PC mode are also perfect on my device but i have also a flawless PC mode so that'S not worth a lot.

According to my quick testing (running a judder hdr10 23.976fps pattern test), pc mode at both 119.88 or 23.976hz are perfect. zero judder. Looks the same as moving out of pc mode and turning real cinema (actually, "cinema screen" on my C1) on.

Thats why I'm questioning here. It got me curious. Is Real Cinema unnecessary if the source is already at the correct refresh rate?

The standard recommendation on this thread is to always turn it on, regardless of the refresh rate, except when using smooth motion.

VBB

16th September 2021, 23:57

We've discussed this before, and like you said, with PC mode there is zero judder, even though RC is forced off. The same is not the case in normal HDMI mode, where you will get judder if you disable RC. Fact is that nobody outside of LG knows exactly what RC does and why it is necessary to enable it in normal mode, where it also creates a ton of input lag (at least on the older models). Frustrating for those of us who can't use PC mode... ;)

SamuriHL

17th September 2021, 00:21

You ain't kidding about that. PC mode would be nice. RC most likely compensates for the delay caused by all the processing in normal HDMI mode to the best of its ability. With PC mode, there isn't any of that processing stuff going on.

Balling

17th September 2021, 04:30

"23, 29, 59 and much more exist they are synonymous."

No, they are not. It is also just a mistake Microsoft did that they fixed in Windows 10 20H2, it is still not perfect notation, yet better than nothing. Best notation is in xrandr of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p#Confusion_with_23p,_29p,_59p,_119p_in_Windows

"120 is without a doubt not doing a 3:2(6:4) 23p"

It is doing 5:5 pulldown. And no. 23 cannot be presented in 120. Only 24 in 120 or 24/1.001 in 120/1.001. All of those are supported on LG C9 and higher.

"let's talk about webpages"

You all started it when you mentioned 2.2 gamma, which is actually almost sRGB!

"even if i calibrated my TV to gamma 2.4 "

You do not need to with LG C9 and higher. /facepalm There is a seperate option for that.

"pc mode at both 119.88 or 23.976hz are perfect. zero judder"

Of course it is perfect. But again! There is no 23.976 or 119.88, only 120/1.001 and 24/1.001. Just yesterday I saw a dolby vision mp4 with 23976/1000 inside, yet there is NO such thing.

"outside of LG knows exactly what RC does"

It is extracting the whatever pulldown cadence is there. Be it 2:3, be it 2:3:3:2, be it 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3, etc.

"selecting bt 1886 is the same as selecting gamma 2.4 in"

No. mpv with target-trc=srgb will have to change the nonlinear R'G'B' to different transfer while with BT.1886 it will not have to touch it, as it does without any options. Same about Chrome, BTW. Only apple devices do that first thingy by default in Quicktime and Safari.

Asmodian

17th September 2021, 04:43

There is no 23.976 or 119.88, only 120/1.001 and 24/1.001.

LOL Pedantic much? :rolleyes:

We all know that 23p really means 24/1.001, it is just short hand so you don't have to write fractions all the time.

You all started it when you mentioned 2.2 gamma, which is actually almost sRGB!

Or what you would use for a bright room calibration? What are you actually trying to say? :confused:

Balling

17th September 2021, 04:47

"Or what you would use for a bright room calibration?"

Unfortunately you will have to use sRGB, of course it is not perfect, TrueTone is required for this. The most important part is not 100-120 nits but more for bright room though, not gamma.

Balling

17th September 2021, 04:51

"that 23p really means 24/1.001"

Yet you do not know somehow that 24.000 modes in VIC support /1.001 modes too that you switch for on the fly, no new handshake needed. Read the standard.

Asmodian

17th September 2021, 04:51

Unfortunately you will have to use sRGB, of course it is not perfect, TrueTone is required for this.

What are you talking about? Care to elaborate, because this line means absolutely nothing to me.

If I calibrate to 2.2 it looks better in a bright room than if I calibrate to 2.4. What about this situation requires me calibrating to sRGB instead?

Yet you do not know somehow that 24.000 modes in VIC support /1.001 modes too that you switch for on the fly, no new handshake needed. Read the standard.

Again, a totally meaningless line to me. When I set 24 Hz in Windows I get 24 Hz, and it does not support 24/1.001. My TV does not support 24/1.001 when I send it 24.000 Hz video. What are you talking about?

Edit: How was this a response to 23p = 24/1.001? What does 24.000 modes in VIC have to do with what we all mean when we say 23p or 23Hz.

Please explain better; you seem to know the standards but you also seem to be posting only to say we are wrong and you know better, not to help anyone understand anything. :(

Balling

17th September 2021, 06:53

"When I set 24 Hz in Windows I get 24 Hz, and it does not support 24/1.001"

It does, LG C9 and higher support 24/1.001. That is what Microsoft calls 23p, you can check that in new windows 10 display menu, it will print 23.976, which is actually 24/1.001.

>TV does not support 24/1.001 when I send it 24.000 Hz video

It does, it will drop every 1001 frame though in that case. You must set to 24/1.001 if you play 24/1.001 content and to 24.000 if you play 24.000. Same about 30 fps, 60 fps and 120 fps. There is no simple way to convert between the two.

What you also do not seem to understand that DTD (detailed timing) of 23.976 is not the same as that alternate mode of 24/1.001! Sigh. Why?? I understand that windows really effed up with this, but still.

>What are you talking about?

1 integer mode in EDID actually is two different modes. Okay?

>2.2 it looks better in a bright room than if I calibrate to 2.4.

Yes, but that is not perfect. Perfect way is to adapt to ambient light and illuminant. An example: Japan anime is often done in D93, not D65 ambient illuminant. What is supposed to happen is Netflix chromatically adapts video to look the same under D65 as it was looking under D93. Simple. Same about light, you apply different EOTF depending on whether it is a bright room or dark room and how broght that is. Even some crazy stuff like red light light or ultraviolet can be supported. Please read the patent, LOL.

huhn

17th September 2021, 07:49

It does, LG C9 and higher support 24/1.001. That is what Microsoft calls 23p,...
and call it 23p too.

should we tell him that nvidia uses 23 too?
and that windows 11 still uses 23 in the display adapter properties it's just synonymous to 24000/1001

Yet you do not know somehow that 24.000 modes in VIC support /1.001 modes too that you switch for on the fly, no new handshake needed. Read the standard.
tell that the desktop composition.
no one ask about vic modes here.

No. mpv with target-trc=srgb will have to change the nonlinear R'G'B' to different transfer while with BT.1886 it will not have to touch it, as it does without any options. Same about Chrome, BTW. Only apple devices do that first thingy by default in Quicktime and Safari.

the TV has no clue about any of that and even if i do a 3d LUT with bt 1886

You all started it when you mentioned 2.2 gamma, which is actually almost sRGB!

madVR needs gamma 2.2 as the destination for a 3D LUT if tone mapping is done not sRGB it's completely irrelevant here completely pointlessly taking out of the air by you. followed by you have to use gamma 2.4 on a OLED which wow...

You do not need to with LG C9 and higher. /facepalm There is a seperate option for that.
your "options" mean nothing to my colorimeter.

Unfortunately you will have to use sRGB, of course it is not perfect, TrueTone is required for this. The most important part is not 100-120 nits but more for bright room though, not gamma.
no i have to use gamma 2.2 if tone mapping is used in madVR else i can aim at what ever i want 2.35 be my guest.

Of course it is perfect. But again! There is no 23.976 or 119.88, only 120/1.001 and 24/1.001. Just yesterday I saw a dolby vision mp4 with 23976/1000 inside, yet there is NO such thing.

a file does not have to follow any refreshrate so it exists.
it's just someone using a source filter that read the wrong frame interval. and why would you go from a TV to a random file spec? why...

No. mpv with target-trc=srgb will have to change the nonlinear R'G'B' to different transfer while with BT.1886 it will not have to touch it, as it does without any options. Same about Chrome, BTW. Only apple devices do that first thingy by default in Quicktime and Safari.
but why would you even care about a sRGB...

i'm talking about the TV an OLED to it doesn't know and doesn't care what you do on your PC.

Balling

17th September 2021, 10:55

"should we tell him that nvidia uses 23 too?
and that windows 11 still uses 23 in the display adapter "

These are the same menu, nvidia control panel just uses same API device manger does. Again, in the new menu there is a direct 23.976 written, so it is just a bug. Do I need to give a screenshot? LOL, what? Here: old menu shows 119 Hz yet the new one shows 120/1.001
https://forum.ixbt.com/post.cgi?id=attach:10:56858:3621:2.png

huhn

17th September 2021, 11:48

glad that you are not the person that makes the decision what a bug is...

will they change it one day maybe will the synonymous meanings stay you better believe that.

ashlar42

17th September 2021, 13:38

Troll added to ignore list. Know-it-alls have no use for me.

flaviowolff

17th September 2021, 14:12

"When I set 24 Hz in Windows I get 24 Hz, and it does not support 24/1.001"

It does, it will drop every 1001 frame though in that case. You must set to 24/1.001 if you play 24/1.001 content and to 24.000 if you play 24.000. Same about 30 fps, 60 fps and 120 fps. There is no simple way to convert between the two.

Regarding 23.976 (24.1001) fps content, is there an advantage in setting Windows to 23.976(24.1001) instead of 119.88(120.1001), in pc mode?

biship

17th September 2021, 16:56

Don't you want madvr to switch to the fps of the content regardless?

flaviowolff

17th September 2021, 17:06

Don't you want madvr to switch to the fps of the content regardless?

yes, but if 119.88 gives the same result as 23.976, i'd prefer it, so I can go in and out of fullscreen seamlessly.
Besides, I don't always use madvr. I also watch netflix on my pc, to benefit from spatial audio with headphones.
as a bonus, 119.88 would be nice to toggle smooth motion on/off on the fly.

so, is there any benefit from using 24.976 instead of 119.88 in Windows?

according to my quick testing, it's the same, but i'd like to know if there is a theoretical difference.
ty

huhn

17th September 2021, 19:27

you can not frame interpolate on the TV side but that'S a bonus in my book.

flaviowolff

17th September 2021, 19:35

yep, i'm not willing to.

summing up my question: when watching 23.976fps movies in pc mode (Windows), smooth motion off, is there any difference in motion quality between setting Windows' output to 23.976 or 119.88hz?

Asmodian

17th September 2021, 22:18

summing up my question: when watching 23.976fps movies in pc mode (Windows), smooth motion off, is there any difference in motion quality between setting Windows' output to 23.976 or 119.88hz?

No, no difference even theoretically. I always use 119 instead of 23 for 23.976 content. The mouse is still smooth and everything. ;)

It does, LG C9 and higher support 24/1.001. That is what Microsoft calls 23p, you can check that in new windows 10 display menu, it will print 23.976, which is actually 24/1.001.

Shocking! :rolleyes:

Did you seriously think my post meant that I thought my TV did not support 23.976024 Hz? You sound like you have read the specs but never used an HTPC before.

Almost all 24 and 30 fps content is drop-frame timecode, you need to understand this before you can get smooth motion on any display.

Here: old menu shows 119 Hz yet the new one shows 120/1.001

I don't see a 120/1.001 anywhere in your screenshot. 119.880 is not correct, it is 120/1.001 after all. :p

Edit:
1 integer mode in EDID actually is two different modes. Okay?

No, not okay, I still don't understand what you are trying to say. How does that work? My EDIDs have separate modes for 23.976 and 24.000 Hz, I see no packing of both into one mode or anything.

What you also do not seem to understand that DTD (detailed timing) of 23.976 is not the same as that alternate mode of 24/1.001!

You are saying there is a 23.976 time base that is not the same as 24/1.001? How would I use it? I don't understand this alternate mode stuff at all, alternate modes for a refresh rate don't make any sense to me. If it is sending 24.000 Hz what is 24/1.001 about it?

Balling

18th September 2021, 08:29

"Regarding 23.976 (24.1001) fps content, is there an advantage in setting Windows to 23.976(24/1.001) instead of 119.88(120/1.001), in pc mode?"

No. Mpv player will apply 5:5 pulldown in second case and in first TV will apply 5:5 pulldown. In both cases result is the same and is the same as if 24/1.001 was used, but you may want to turn off interpolation in mpv. Of course in the second case you will be able to do some stuff with BFI and HFR upscaler in TV itself...

P.S. also there is a very bad latency with 24 fps and even worse input lag due to how windows 10' window renderer works.

Balling

18th September 2021, 08:32

"My EDIDs have separate modes for 23.976 and 24.000 Hz, I see no packing of both into one mode or anything."

Then you TV cannot do 24/1.001. Sorry. But you should look into edid, not just saying what you see somewhere in the menu... it may be that your TV only has 23.976 DTD, which is not 24/1.001. You can use moninfo with edid-decode.

"Almost all 24 and 30 fps content is drop-frame timecode, you need to understand this before you can get smooth motion on any display."

Drop frame timecode becomes wrong after 9 hours 15 minutes, so I do not understand what it has to do with 24/1.001. Nothing. It is also not /1.001, it is 1000/999, that is why it breaks after 9 hours 15 minutes.

Oh and also SMPTE DF timecode is technically not applicable to 24. Only to 30/1.001 fps and its multiples.

Also a lot of content I work with is 24.000. And watch too: Loki, Falcon, What if... are all 24.000.

""If it is sending 24.000 Hz what is 24/1.001 about it?"
It does not send 24.000. It changes to alternate clock (/1.001), what to not understand there? :) https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/304a94a2e6debadd55c4e73cbec432dd57832856#diff-f1b0089a97dd0195eb24305ab63a79e3

"You are saying there is a 23.976 time base that is not the same as 24/1.001?"

Yes. That is precisely what I am saying.

Asmodian

18th September 2021, 10:20

Drop frame timecode becomes wrong after 9 hours 15 minutes, so I do not understand what it has to do with 24/1.001.

I see. :D

I think you are confusing timecodes with the real time rate video frames are processed by the video player and sent to the display. The timecodes go out of sync after 9h 15min because the video is really played at 23.97602398 fps, not 23.97600000 fps.

Or are you saying there are video files I could try to play where LAV Video would send the frames at 23.97600000 fps synced to the audio? I have only ever seen 23.97602398. None of my display modes are 23.976000000 Hz and none of the video tools I use have a "23.97600000" option for frame rate.

Or maybe I have seen a video with that framerate, but no one cares because they are all <5h long anyway?

Oh and also SMPTE DF timecode is technically not applicable to 24. Only to 30/1.001 fps and its multiples.

By "drop frame" I mean XX/1.001 fps, it is about the rate frames are sent to the display, not what the timecodes are. I don't care what the timecodes are, I use frame number when doing subtitles anyway.

I also still don't know why you are bringing any of this up, but it is interesting trying to figure out what you are talking about. :)

It does not send 24.000. It changes to alternate clock (/1.001), what to not understand there? :)

I think I see what you mean, when looking at the EDID entries in CRU they look like they are just 24, 25, 50, 60, 100, and 120 Hz, but Windows gives the separate 23.976, 59.940, and 119.880 options too. Are there really other 23.9760000 modes on some displays? That would be weird.

Or maybe I have seen video modes that were specified as 23.97600000 Hz, but the clocks have never been accurate enough to tell?

Untuned my 23p option runs at ~23.97573xxx Hz anyway, so who knows what it is specified as. That you think there might be a meaningful difference between the two on a PC is cute. :o

One drop/repeat every 9h would be a very well tuned refresh rate for madVR, anyone would be happy with that. You have to pee sometimes. :devil:

ashlar42

18th September 2021, 16:41

It's so frustrating that no Dolby Vision for HTPC use exists yes... so effing frustrating, damn...

(sorry for the useless post, I needed to vent with somebody that can undertand the frustration)

Balling

18th September 2021, 19:21

"That you think there might be a meaningful difference between the two on a PC is cute. "
Main clocks on a PC have nanosecond precision while internal clocks in PCH have picosecond precision, those last ones are used for HDMI stuff. You can use GNSS-SDR to get to those nanoseconds from GNSS sattellites and remove judder. It is very much possible. Cinema VRR requires 5 digits after decimal point!

"I think I see what you mean, when looking at the EDID entries in CRU they look like they are just 24, 25, 50, 60, 100, and 120 Hz, but Windows gives the separate 23.976, 59.940, and 119.880 options too. Are there really other 23.9760000 modes on some displays? That would be weird."

It was very weird to me too once. Yet that is precisely what happens, except those are 24/1.001 modes, AS I said. 23.976 is what DTD is, that is not VIC. Also not on some displays only: all displays ARE mandated to support both if such a VIC is there... 50 obviously does not support such an alternate clock. Again, HDMI standard 2.0 is freely available, it was leaked eons ago.

"One drop/repeat every 9h would be a very well tuned refresh rate for madVR"

There will not be any such drop. Sigh. It is perfect 24/1.001, just like video. 23976/1000 is just wrongly tagged video.

"Untuned my 23p option runs at ~23.97573xxx Hz anyway, so who knows what it is specified as"

Look into EDID. Moninfo for windows, cat for linux.

"The timecodes go out of sync after 9h 15min because the video is really played at 23.97602398 fps, not 23.97600000 fps."

Yep. 24*999/1000. Nobody uses it anymore though. There is PTS/DTS/timebase in containers and teeks in HEVC/AVC/VVC bitstreams.

aron7awol

18th September 2021, 20:38

All of this is all well and good, but you essentially came into this thread suddenly and started parading around as condescendingly as possible saying "I know more than everyone else about these topics totally unrelated to everything being discussed in this thread! Look at me!"

Asmodian

19th September 2021, 01:35

The only thing that is new to any of us (me) is that the 23Hz mode is defined as an alternative of the 24Hz mode instead of as its own mode. Of course, this is just an interesting technical detail, it is presented to us as a separate mode either way. It does make all the trouble defining custom 23Hz modes, such as having it get labeled 24Hz, make a lot more sense, so I am happy to know. :)

There will not be any such drop. Sigh. It is perfect 24/1.001, just like video. 23976/1000 is just wrongly tagged video.

There would if I had a video mode for 23.9760000000 available in my EDID.

Do you have any idea how to actually play video using madVR on a PC? :mad:

I have no idea why 24*(999/1000) was even brought up. I will stop with the off topic. :o

Balling

19th September 2021, 07:22

"play video using madVR on a PC"

In mpc-hc i do actually have an auto framerate switcher for full screen, so yeah.

"would if I had a"

But do you?

kostik

19th September 2021, 18:23

If I want to use the latest madVR builds but to not use the new DTM features, what settings do I choose?
Because if choose the simple passthrough, I still see some settings on the right page, do they making any difference if I don't tick any box?

https://imgur.com/kMVKGo3.png

huhn

19th September 2021, 18:52

you can ignore them

Yiorgos

29th September 2021, 21:17

I dont know if this is a from madvr,MPC-HC or LG C9. If i force YCbCr422 limited in nvidia settings ( because that is the space the tv operates natively), with the tv in regular HDMI mode( not pc) and select TV (16-235) in madvr (tv properties) the video is washed up. Also on tv i have selected Black level low. If i select high the video becomes even more washed out. Is that a known bug? Is the limited video chain (nvidia GPU>LC C9> madVR broken? Video am playing is sdr. RGB full creates more banding thats why i insist on YCbCr422 limited where the tv natively operates. Thanks alot.

SamuriHL

29th September 2021, 22:06

Asmodian

29th September 2021, 23:35

The limited range settings do not mean "pass through the video in the limited range format" as one might expect. They mean "compress 0-255 to 16-325", and you do not want both madVR and the GPU compressing the range.

SamuriHL

30th September 2021, 00:01

Yes, exactly that.

Yiorgos

30th September 2021, 05:52

It's not a bug. It's an issue with what you're doing and how you have it configured. :) I don't mean that as an insult. What I mean is set madvr to FULL (0-255) and keep your YCbCr422 limited. Keep the tv on black low or auto. This will produce the proper color chain. What's happening now with both madvr and the driver set to limited is it's doing double conversion giving you the washed out colors. Either the driver or madvr should be set to full. This is how I had my HTPC configured before it died and it works really well. Try it out, I think you'll agree.

Thanks so much for this. Apparently i cant multi quote :). I suspected that the limited setting was doing something else in madvr. I know there are a million settings guides out there but any settings you can suggest for upscaling res and chroma without making it look artificial? gpu 3080.
Thanks again to the people who responded.

Edit: Also where can i find the madvr tone mapping module? The beta one. Thanks again.

Asmodian

30th September 2021, 08:49

I like NGU AA for a natural and very high quality upscaling option.

NGU AA med for chroma (or high if you must).
NGU AA very high for image upscaling.

Yiorgos

30th September 2021, 09:01

I like NGU AA for a natural and very high quality upscaling option.

NGU AA med for chroma (or high if you must).
NGU AA very high for image upscaling.

Thanks. LAV video filter should be left at pc levels and madvr at pc levels if i send YCbCr 422 limited from the driver correct?

chros

30th September 2021, 09:50

Thanks. LAV video filter should be left at pc levels and madvr at pc levels if i send YCbCr 422 limited from the driver correct?
Take a look at the links in my signature.

Asmodian

30th September 2021, 11:43

Thanks. LAV video filter should be left at pc levels and madvr at pc levels if i send YCbCr 422 limited from the driver correct?

The LAV setting does not matter, that is only for the RGB output that you should never be using.

Yes, madVR should be at PC levels if you have the GPU output YCbCr 4:2:2 limited. My LG CX looks better if I send it 4:4:4 limited, even when it uses 4:2:2 internally.

SamuriHL

30th September 2021, 13:14

I like NGU AA for a natural and very high quality upscaling option.

NGU AA med for chroma (or high if you must).
NGU AA very high for image upscaling.I use sharp for upscaling but otherwise same settings. That's very much a personal choice on the aa vs sharp decision.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

huhn

30th September 2021, 13:23

is the rtings tif good enough to show the day night difference between PC mode and none PC mode?

https://www.rtings.com/images/test-materials/2016/gradient-16-bit.tif

ashlar42

30th September 2021, 17:46

is the rtings tif good enough to show the day night difference between PC mode and none PC mode?

https://www.rtings.com/images/test-materials/2016/gradient-16-bit.tif
Night and day difference with dithering enabled?

huhn

30th September 2021, 18:19

because there is barely anything yet again.

and i saw the images posted here which i can't reproduce.

Asmodian

30th September 2021, 22:21

I can notice differences in banding between sending 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 limited and RGB full using that image.

Interestingly RGB in PC mode looks better than RGB in HDMI mode, on my Calman calibrated CX switching the input to HDMI instead of PC caused the RGB full input to have a bit more obvious banding. HDMI sent YCbCr looks the best (least banding). None of the differences are night and day with that image, pausing the gradient-perceptual test pattern in a dark region works better for me.

huhn

30th September 2021, 22:30

can you link that?

Asmodian

1st October 2021, 00:23

gradient-perceptual-v2.1_24fps.mkv (https://www.mediafire.com/file/z1f4ahg3784lfwz/gradient-perceptual-v2.1_24fps.mkv/file)
gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1_24fps.mkv (https://www.mediafire.com/file/4dia3lixs0n9xyo/gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1_24fps.mkv/file)

ashlar42

7th October 2021, 20:48

Anyone using ColourSpace to create 3D LUTs for madVR? If there's any tip/trick to bear in mind, I would appreciate you sharing it. Thanks. :-)

Chouonsoku

20th October 2021, 22:16

So madVR is totally screwed on Windows 11 for HDR right now, right? Got a new LG C1 and have been using a Shield for most of my content but wanted to setup madVR again. Noticed I don't have the option of 10 or 12 bpc in NVCP anymore even if I turn on Windows HDR for the OLED. Watching stuff on my monitor also appears washed out, but then when I take screenshots through MPC-HC, the video is properly tonemapped.

Wull

26th October 2021, 07:01

Hoping someone can point me in the right 'setting' direction.

I have, successfully for sometime now, been using madvr to tone map HDR using pixel shaders to my projector. I can also switch to1080p films with no issues. Yesterday I picked up an LG CX OLED. Instead of using madvr pixel shaders, I set this to 'passthrough HDR to display/send HDR metadata to the display. With HDR material everything looks fine, but when I play a 1080p film the picture goes really dark. However, if I restart my HTPC, and play some 1080p material first, all is OK. But if I then play HDR material and then go back to 1080p I'm back to square one, with a dark 1080p picture. No matter which setting I try in madvr HDR options the outcome is always the same, a dark 1080p picture.

Any thoughts?

Asmodian

26th October 2021, 09:50

OS and GPU and GPU driver version?

HDR support is non-ideal in general, but that isn't normal. :(

Wull

26th October 2021, 17:06

os and gpu and gpu driver version?

Hdr support is non-ideal in general, but that isn't normal. :(

Hi.

W10
GTX 1080
456.71

edit.

May have found a workaround. If I use madvr's pixel shaders from the off everything is fine. It's when I use 'passthrough HDR to display/send HDR metadata to the display' it all goes odd. Having used 'passthrough HDR to display/send HDR metadata to the display' then revert back to using pixel shaders for HDR, even the HDR picture goes really dark.

I'm really new to the LG. There may be a setting within it's menu I need to adjust.

On a quick note. madvr settings. I have my GPU set to 'Full RGB' should I set madvr to TV level (16-235)
Set HDR profile to DCI-P3/pure gamma curve 2.40 and SDR to BT.709/pure gamma curve 2.40?

QBhd

26th October 2021, 18:29

Make sure HMDI Rich Color (or whatever it's called) is enabled for your HDMI port on the TV... Setting can only be changed when the port is active

QB

flaviowolff

5th November 2021, 13:22

Hello there, could someone kindly suggest me a good curve for madvr beta dynamic tonemapping (using HGIG - hdr game mode in PC mode on C1, so no TV tonemapping)?
Ty

e-t172

27th November 2021, 01:49

Hello,

I'd like to experiment and do some research with the internal 1DLUT/3DLUT functionality of my brand new G1. I have a few questions before I start:

- Did anyone actually attempt to use aiopylgtv/bscpylgtv calibration commands (start_calibration , ddc_reset, upload_1d_lut, upload_3d_lut) with a C1/G1? Given that there is a big warning on these commands that they have the potential to brick the TV, I'd certainly like some extra reassurance before I try them on a £4,500 piece of hardware…

- Just to be clear, anything I do with these commands is reversible with a factory reset, right? So I can't mess things up permanently?

chros

27th November 2021, 12:51

Personally I didn't since I only have a B8, but here's a user who claims it doesn't work (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/issues/44).
I only heard about bricking a C8 when wrong implementation of dolby vision config was uploaded (it was fixed later on).
Try out these commands, you will see whether it works or not (it should not break anything, in theory :) , since we don't upload anything), SDR Expert ISF Bright Room preset in the example:

aiopylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 start_calibration expert1
aiopylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 set_oled_light expert1 56
aiopylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 end_calibration expert1

You don't have to modify anything in the code for these to work (C1 is not supported yet oficially), if they do (see the calibration toast popup message and oled light is changing) then you have to modify the calibration_support_info() method to include the C1 in it (same as C8 and C9) to work with other calibration commands.

ashlar42

2nd December 2021, 00:45

stefanelli73

6th December 2021, 09:34

I have my sdr mode on the c8 calibrated to both rec709 and dci-p3 (using the rec2020 lut slot). So that's not an issue. The issue is that when playing hdr it doesn't use that rec2020 lut slot obviously. But if I can generate a madvr rec2020 lut and have it get used in hdr that would be wildly amazing I think. Not something I had even considered previously.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

Were you able to do this? This is of particular interest to me

SamuriHL

6th December 2021, 11:23

Nope.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

stefanelli73

6th December 2021, 11:31

Nope.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

Currently with my 77 "LG C1 I am using the CALMAN HOME FOR LG auto-calibration for HDR and DOLBY VISION with excellent results, after having done the calibration in HDR I use MadVr tone mapping (hdr output) .... ... in this regard, if you also use MadVr tone mapping what are your settings?

stefanelli73

6th December 2021, 11:34

I highly doubt that creating an SDR 3DLUT will be "accurate" for HDR in madvr.

In fact I have not tried it myself to do two calibrations in SDR DCI-P3 and SDR BT2020 and apply them in HDR, the result is that the image was very dynamic, but with a strong tendency to red, it is especially noticeable on the faces

SamuriHL

6th December 2021, 18:22

Search for quietvoid's settings for madvr for OLED.

Red push tends to mean the image is oversaturated. Which can be caused by a variety of different issues. Wrong color space being a big one.

chros

12th December 2021, 11:14

Can someone try out these new "remote buttons" who has a CX or C1 with bscpylgtv (https://github.com/chros73/bscpylgtv/)? (there's windows binaries, lite is enough) Which ones work?
NETFLIX, GUIDE, TVGUIDE, AMAZON, DISNEY, DISNEYPLUS, APPLETV, APPLETVPLUS, ALEXA

Example (modify the IP address):
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 button NETFLIX

iceorbital

28th December 2021, 15:59

Something is been bugging me for a couple days. I've followed everything (I really mean everything) everything that is on the internet to setup madvr for 4K HDR (I have W11 and a RTX3080). No matter what I try (including Quietvoid's settings on tone mapping 140, 4:4:4 on Nvidia cpl, latest lav filters), the image coming out of mpc-hc, is less bright, less punchy than if I just take the same video on an usb and watch it directly from the TV's media player (I have a 2021 G1 with latest firmware). The only thing I can pinpoint is tv's own media player fires the ISF bright mode, whereas that mode is not available in Windows 11 when HDR is active. I have tried multiple modes, settling in Cinema (user). Any ideas or definite list of settings for new(er) LG OLED TVs?

quietvoid

28th December 2021, 16:04

I'm not familiar with the 2021 models, but is there actually a ISF bright mode in HDR?
That sounds like a SDR mode to me.

Supposedly Windows 11 has a bug where HDR is not triggered properly.
I don't run it so I don't know.

SamuriHL

28th December 2021, 18:04

That's exactly what it sounds like. Either that or you don't have the output HDR checkbox checked in madvr settings for tone mapping.

ashlar42

1st January 2022, 20:01

I'm not familiar with the 2021 models, but is there actually a ISF bright mode in HDR?No, there isn't.

iceorbital

1st January 2022, 21:55

of course I haven't been able to repro the specific conditions, but I would swear I was loading several HDR files via a usb stick and the media app on the tv and having ISF bright (which I agree it shouldn't be the case). Anyhoo. Gremlins. If I get a repro I'll post steps, otherwise, user error boo for me!

Hammy

6th January 2022, 12:34

Hi everyone.

Looking into HDR 3dluts again as things seem to have moved on in the last year or so. I have so far managed to do the following for my 2018 C8:

1) Create and apply in madVR a rec.2020 3dlut (from a synthetic profile) as suggested here (http://forum.doom9.net/showpost.php?p=1946716&postcount=1886).
2) Upload a "unity" 3dlut (which I'm guessing is empty/blank/netural or such) to a slot using aiopylgtv.

I haven't had a whole lot of time to visually inspect the results (bright afternoon here), but first impressions are that things are greatly changed (improved?) from a tint/saturation stand-point. Things look more vivid with less of an obvious red push.

The question I have is this: is it possible for me to now make a custom 3dlut (as opposed to synthetic) for rec.2020 in displaycal using my meter? I know at least @chros (http://forum.doom9.net/member.php?u=8826) has attempted/done this in the past, but I'm not sure what they finally settled on. I am thinking a synthetic 3dlut is less than optimal as the I have the tools and basic knowledge, but please correct me if there is another approach.

ashlar42

7th January 2022, 23:47

Hammy

8th January 2022, 00:57

Currently deep down the calibrating rabbit hole.

A quick question to any B8/C8 owners. Does non-PC mode with a PC/nvidia card ALWAYS display bt.2020 in the banner at the top of the screen? I have recently only started uploading the 3dluts directly to the TV and I am trying to figure out which slot(s) and modes to be calibrating in.

SamuriHL

8th January 2022, 01:14

Hammy

8th January 2022, 01:26

Not unless you have madvr tell it to output the bt.2020 flag.

I personally calibrate my SDR modes for both rec.709 and for bt.2020. Yes, you can do both depending on how you upload the 3D LUT. I use device manager with colourspace. I don't bother with HDR or DV calibration as they are pointless on a C8. I do calibrate my white point balance for both SDR and HDR/DV in the service menu (cool for SDR and warm for HDR/DV in my case).

Don't try to upload the same 3D LUT to both rec.709 and bt.2020, however. You have to create a new lut for bt.2020.
Hi Samuri! Thanks for that. I had posted a long message the other day quoting and thanking you and chros and a few other knowledgeable people who I've been following in this thread, but it was flagged as my "first post mod check" and I wasn't able to post until now.

There must be gremlins in my setup because, even without madVR, Windows (8.1) appears to always and only send bt.2020 as reported in the C8's banner. I can send SDR patches with either madTPG or ChromeCast, but only with ChromeCast is there no bt.2020 flag.

Is there a widely agreed upon NVIDIA driver version for someone with W8.1 and a 1070ti? or is there another obvious reason that I can't get it to remove the bt.2020 flag in SDR mode?

EDIT: Still not sure how I got stuck in that mode (maybe custom resolutions?) but a few driver wipes and 471.12 seems to have removed the flag. More questions will follow ;)

SamuriHL

8th January 2022, 03:25

Personally I don't use a PC for a tpg. I use the rpi4 with pgenerator. It's bit perfect.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

Hammy

9th January 2022, 07:58

Managed to get a near-perfect SDR calibration, at least "good enough", and I can't notice any difference with the 3dlut uploaded to the TV compared with it in madVR. To be honest, I don't think I could A/B if a 3dlut was active or not on the C8 once SM white point was calibrated. I guess white point is 95% of the job on a decent set.

I read and re-read the posts regarding the cyan tint in bt2020 many times. I have always felt something was off in HDR, but had no way of uploading to the TV until recently (HCFR+DisplayCAL being my only tools..).

So far, I think the best results for HDR is SM white point + unity 3dlut + synthetic profile in madVR (as here (http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1946716#post1946716)). This isn't ideal for non-PC inputs though.

Can anyone direct me on how to create a 1dlut for bt2020/HDR with the tools available to me? I have reset both luts in a spare HDR mode, but I'm not even sure what to be measuring. And to confirm, is there actually a problem with the way the C8 processes the bt2020 3dlut, or is the problem simply with the factory bt2020 3dlut?

SamuriHL

9th January 2022, 17:35

I would not bother with 1D lut or 3D lut on a C8 for HDR. It's pointless. 1D lut suffers problems. The SM white point is very helpful. I don't go beyond that for HDR modes including DV.

Hammy

12th January 2022, 08:50

Well I spent a few days on this. The only combination I could find that provides correction for the cyan tint is factory 1dlut+synthetic 3dlut in madVR. Any other combination (including a calibrated 2.2 gamma 1dlut uploaded to the TV) either results in loss of saturation or cyan tint in dark scenes. Even uploading the synthetic 3dlut to the TV produces the tint, while in madVR it does not.

The nice thing is that you don't need to own a meter to try this. Just set up a HDR slot with Warm2 and remove the factory 3dlut with free aiopylgtv tool. I guess you can remove luts with those paid softwares too :D

I have linked two 3dluts which are visually the most similar to the factory 3dlut, while not producing the cyan tint. They were created in DisplayCal using the methods outlined by @chros (http://forum.doom9.net/member.php?u=8826) and @j82k (http://forum.doom9.net/member.php?u=226664). What did you guys settle on in the end?

Created with rendering intent:

'Preserve saturation' (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ABELAgQYBm325UbhFFFRUpT4YYTOfVQ-/view?usp=sharing) (visually identical w/o tint)
'Saturation' (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V9Kxx6oLK-9S_KQOgoqmrLUs7Wx2tC7o/view?usp=sharing) (same as above, but little bit more saturation)

Next I might try measuring my primaries and inputting them into the profile used to create the luts. In theory it could work, but I really like how things look at the moment as well.

sepp1234

13th January 2022, 14:11

Hi,
I've just discovered what you guys have been doing in regards to importing custom tone mapping curves into LG OLEDs.
Until now I've been using madvr with a JVC x7900 and with my LG B7
set to 640 target peak nits (which is what I measured).

So what I unsterstand is, that by importing custom tone mapping curves into the newer LG OLEDs you can in effect disable tone mapping inside the TV. Correct?
I do own Colourspace and I can import the curves with it. Correct, too?

Is there such a work around for a Sony A80J as well?

Because right now I could buy a LG G1 or a Sony A80J for the same price: 1300€. Or even a C1 for 1090,-.
And with the G1 being not all that much brighter and the Sony having the very cool acoustic surface sound option (and even using it as a center speaker) I´d be tempted to lean towards the Sony.

But anyway: Using madvr for HDR tone mapping without the TV double tone mapping is more important to me. And if that´s not possible with the Sony, I´d prefer staying with LG.

What do you guys think?
Any comment would be highly appreciated. I´ve read a lot in this thread, but it´s gotten quite long and it´s been difficult for me to find the info I was searching for...:)

e-t172

13th January 2022, 20:28

So what I unsterstand is, that by importing custom tone mapping curves into the newer LG OLEDs you can in effect disable tone mapping inside the TV. Correct?

A simpler way of effectively disabling tone mapping is to set the HDR metadata sent to the TV such that it matches its own tone mapping peak luminance. For example with my G1 it's around 775 nits. That is, if I send maxCLL=775 to the TV, then its internal tone mapping is effectively bypassed because the TV concludes there is no tone mapping to do. I have personally verified this through measurements - with maxCLL=775 the TV's response curve matches ST.2084 PQ pretty much exactly, with hard clipping as expected.

Otherwise, you can also alter the internal tone mapping parameters directly using DeviceControl (https://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/lg-oled-2019-pq-curve-upload-free-template-for-devicecontrol-interface.13237/) (for Colorspace) or Calman for LG (https://kb.portrait.com/help/lg-2019-custom-tone-mapping). Sadly aiopylgtv doesn't seem to have support for this (yet).

Note that obviously the above only applies to luminance curve tone mapping, not to gamut mapping.

sepp1234

14th January 2022, 00:46

Ok, thank you!
So - how do I send a certain maxCLL value to my TV? :)
And... with this method I could also use a Sony OLED, right?

Hammy

14th January 2022, 02:02

Ok, thank you!
So - how do I send a certain maxCLL value to my TV? :)
And... with this method I could also use a Sony OLED, right?

If you are setting "target peak nits" in madVR, then you are already doing it. That is the point of that setting, it lets madVR know what your display is capable of. At least that is my understanding.

Each TV will behave differently, but best-case-scenario with madVR is that it uses actual peak luminance as a base.

chros

16th January 2022, 11:23

I would not bother with 1D lut or 3D lut on a C8 for HDR. It's pointless.
I disagree with this :)

Managed to get a near-perfect SDR calibration, at least "good enough", and I can't notice any difference with the 3dlut uploaded to the TV compared with it in madVR. To be honest, I don't think I could A/B if a 3dlut was active or not on the C8 once SM white point was calibrated. I guess white point is 95% of the job on a decent set.
Then try this one (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1947198#post1947198) out :)

I read and re-read the posts regarding the cyan tint in bt2020 many times. I have always felt something was off in HDR, but had no way of uploading to the TV until recently (HCFR+DisplayCAL being my only tools..).

So far, I think the best results for HDR is SM white point + unity 3dlut + synthetic profile in madVR (as here (http://forum.doom9.net/showthread.php?p=1946716#post1946716)). This isn't ideal for non-PC inputs though.

Can anyone direct me on how to create a 1dlut for bt2020/HDR with the tools available to me? I have reset both luts in a spare HDR mode, but I'm not even sure what to be measuring. And to confirm, is there actually a problem with the way the C8 processes the bt2020 3dlut, or is the problem simply with the factory bt2020 3dlut?
Yes, that's a bt2020 3dlut processing issue with 2018/2019 (?) models that both affects factory and custom 3dluts as well.
You can read here how to create 1dlut here (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/topic/lg-c8-lut/page/19/) (for about from the middle of the topic).

Well I spent a few days on this. The only combination I could find that provides correction for the cyan tint is factory 1dlut+synthetic 3dlut in madVR. Any other combination (including a calibrated 2.2 gamma 1dlut uploaded to the TV) either results in loss of saturation or cyan tint in dark scenes. Even uploading the synthetic 3dlut to the TV produces the tint, while in madVR it does not.
That's correct :)

The nice thing is that you don't need to own a meter to try this. Just set up a HDR slot with Warm2 and remove the factory 3dlut with free aiopylgtv tool.
Here's an advanced version of that (https://github.com/chros73/bscpylgtv) :)

I have linked two 3dluts which are visually the most similar to the factory 3dlut, while not producing the cyan tint. They were created in DisplayCal using the methods outlined by @chros (http://forum.doom9.net/member.php?u=8826) and @j82k (http://forum.doom9.net/member.php?u=226664). What did you guys settle on in the end?
I went back to what @j82k suggested at the first place (I used PC mode back then where color gamut is forced in Wide mode, that's why I needed more saturation):
- absolute with white point scaling and (!) +5 saturation in madvr (for only HDR content, under Color tab)
- and setting color gamut to Auto in PC mode with my tool (I started to switch between PC and non-PC mode as well for only HDR10)

but I really like how things look at the moment as well.
Of course! It was basically unwatchable otherwise :)
It's shocking that no reviewers picked up this issue at all!

Next I might try measuring my primaries and inputting them into the profile used to create the luts. In theory it could work...
This is @j82k results measuring in SDR after DDC reset (he only changed RGB values not WP):

https://www.avsforum.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/00_measured-primaries_sdr_ddc-reset-png.3170261/

And here are mines:
I tried owered oled light in HDR10 to get 100 nits (oled light 8) resulted really low RGB Y values, so I matched those RGB Y values and it came up with around 164 nits (oled light 17):
- the result is pretty similar to what sdr 100 nits resulted in! so there's no big difference in the resulting image either (that means the gamut is reduced pretty much when we display full patches in hdr10 mode, as we saw above)
- still need extra saturation in madvr, not sure how much
- it helped skin colors a bit
- and now it removed the blue tint with Lore s02e01 sample that the extra saturation caused!

https://www.avsforum.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/capture_047_30082021_195208-png.3170381/

https://www.avsforum.com/cdn-cgi/image/format=auto,onerror=redirect,width=1920,height=1920,fit=scale-down/https://www.avsforum.com/attachments/capture_048_30082021_195211-png.3170382/

chros

16th January 2022, 11:47

@Hammy, I wonder whether this same issue (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-b8-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2188352/post-29664977) exists on your C8 as well (conversation starts from the top of the page) : only with HDR10 and in non-PC mode. You need pitch black room to see it, and use the linked sample.

quietvoid

16th January 2022, 16:35

I disagree with this :)
I'd tend to agree that 1D LUT has issues, it causes flickering letterbox bars in HDR10 for me.

SamuriHL

16th January 2022, 16:39

Yes, I know we disagree on the 1d lut issue. [emoji846]

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

17th January 2022, 00:46

I'd tend to agree that 1D LUT has issues, it causes flickering letterbox bars in HDR10 for me.
Strange, not for me, neither in PC/nonPC modes.

quietvoid

17th January 2022, 01:17

Well maybe it is a B8/C8 difference :)

Hammy

17th January 2022, 02:10

Then try this one (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1947198#post1947198) out :)
Wow, that's some effort you put in! I am not sure I want to put that much effort in, and I am somewhat old fashioned and think SDR shouldn't necessarily look like HDR :p

Yes, that's a bt2020 3dlut processing issue with 2018/2019 (?) models that both affects factory and custom 3dluts as well.
You can read here how to create 1dlut here (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/topic/lg-c8-lut/page/19/) (for about from the middle of the topic).
Thanks.
Between that thread and this, all you ever need to know about the B8/C8 is available!
I spent this last week mostly hand-editing .cal files for 1dluts and looking at Maleficent's face (!!), but sadly with any custom 1dlut in HDR it raises absolute black.
I tested this with just white and black specified in the 1dlut+unity 3dlut. So, for me, I have to keep the factory 1dlut for HDR.

Here's an advanced version of that (https://github.com/chros73/bscpylgtv) :)
You forked it? Really cool!
Is there a way to call commands using madvr? For example, I was thinking it could be useful to switch out of PC mode automatically when madvr detects HDR/colourspace etc.
I looked into profiles but I couldn't see if it's possible to call external commands.

I went back to what @j82k suggested at the first place (I used PC mode back then where color gamut is forced in Wide mode, that's why I needed more saturation):
- absolute with white point scaling and (!) +5 saturation in madvr (for only HDR content, under Color tab)
- and setting color gamut to Auto in PC mode with my tool (I started to switch between PC and non-PC mode as well for only HDR10)
Thanks.
Not ideal solution but I suppose adding colour in madvr is better than through TV controls... :P

This is @j82k results measuring in SDR after DDC reset (he only changed RGB values not WP):
I have always thought j82k and I seem to have very, very similar panels.
Pretty bad near-black handling, one side slightly brighter than the other, and my measured primaries are also pretty similar to theirs. No panel swap for me, though.

@Hammy, I wonder whether this same issue (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-b8-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2188352/post-29664977) exists on your C8 as well (conversation starts from the top of the page) : only with HDR10 and in non-PC mode. You need pitch black room to see it, and use the linked sample.
If I understood correctly, you wanted me to check the pattern outside of PC mode and whether the TruMotion affected near black using an external source?
If that was the case, it does not affect it on my set (neither on a ddc_reset input nor factory 1dlut+3dlut calibrated).
Brightness@50 resulted in black being black in both cases, with more gradual steps down in the calibrated input of course.

SamuriHL

17th January 2022, 03:11

...and think SDR shouldn't necessarily look like HDR :p

No kidding. LOL :) SDR is fairly well defined in how it should look IMO.

...but sadly with any custom 1dlut in HDR it raises absolute black.
I tested this with just white and black specified in the 1dlut+unity 3dlut. So, for me, I have to keep the factory 1dlut for HDR.

EXACTLY.

chros

17th January 2022, 13:26

If I understood correctly, you wanted me to check the pattern outside of PC mode and whether the TruMotion affected near black using an external source?
If that was the case, it does not affect it on my set (neither on a ddc_reset input nor factory 1dlut+3dlut calibrated).
Brightness@50 resulted in black being black in both cases, with more gradual steps down in the calibrated input of course.
Thanks, that's what I meant. That's strange because otherwise B8/C8 are almost identical how they behave.

I spent this last week mostly hand-editing .cal files for 1dluts and looking at Maleficent's face (!!), but sadly with any custom 1dlut in HDR it raises absolute black.
I tested this with just white and black specified in the 1dlut+unity 3dlut. So, for me, I have to keep the factory 1dlut for HDR.
Well maybe it is a B8/C8 difference :)
Hmm, interesting, I can't think of anything else either :)

Wow, that's some effort you put in! I am not sure I want to put that much effort in, and I am somewhat old fashioned and think SDR shouldn't necessarily look like HDR :p
:) It's not much effort, once you know what you want to accomplish, it's just 1 more normal calibration session:
- set oled light to 243 nits in a preset of your choice (@D65)
- then run your usual 3dlut creation stuff
- once the 3dlut is ready then you can try it out in madvr (e.g. with profiles)

You forked it? Really cool!
Is there a way to call commands using madvr? ... I looked into profiles but I couldn't see if it's possible to call external commands.
Yes there is, if you highlight a profile and not a Profile Group (where your profile name is) then there're 2 textboxes for "command line to execute when this profile is" (de)activated.
But I don't use those (and I think the deactivation one has a bug, meaning it doesn't work).

For example, I was thinking it could be useful to switch out of PC mode automatically when madvr detects HDR/colourspace etc.
I use this tool (https://github.com/chros73/madvr-js-remote) to manually change whatever I want, along with this batch script (to launch the player), mpc-be.cmd:

@echo off
REM Script to run mpc-be and commands after it exited

REM set working directory to the current one
cd "%~dp0"
call lg_constants.cmd

mpc-be64.exe && ^
timeout 10 && ^
%mcmd% set_device_info HDMI_2 pc PC && ^
timeout 5 && ^
%mcmd% set_current_picture_mode eco && ^
timeout 5 && ^
%mcmd% power_off && ^
timeout 540 && ^
C:\Windows\psshutdown.exe -d -t 00

lg_constants.cmd:

@echo off
REM set LG constants

REM set main command
SET mcmd=D:\Progs\bscpylgtv\dist\bscpylgtvcommand\bscpylgtvcommand.exe -p "D:\Progs\bscpylgtv\.aiopylgtv.sqlite" 192.168.1.18

What it does is:
- when mpc-be is exited (using "After Pleyback -> Exit" (and not Standby))
- it switches back to PC mode
- switches to SDR Eco preset in PC mode (Oled light is set to 0 in this preset)
- turns off the TV
- puts PC into standby

So this way, whenever I turn the TV on I have it in the same state.

sepp1234

17th January 2022, 14:20

Since I haven´t seen this here:
The 2021 Panasonic OLEDs actually let you turn off tonemapping all together or you can manually set the clipping point in 10 nit increments.
Have a look at minute 4:12:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2O_y8LM5p4&t=285s

I´m not sure about the cheaper models, but in the JZ2000 and JZ1500 you can do this.
The JZ1500 has the same panels as the JZ2000 and has just a "normal" speaker system built-in (compared to the soundbar challenging system in the JZ2000).
And this panel seems to be quite a bit brighter than LGs G1 and also the Sony A90J with peak brightness (10%) at 877 nits, where the G1 reached 687 nits and the Sony 750 nits (Avforums measures).
Costing about 1500 Euros (JZ1500) here in Germany right now,
I´m very tempted to upgrade my LG B7 and be sure about the clipping point.

Hammy

17th January 2022, 20:25

@chros Great work! Now I can use your tool to automatically switch between PC and non-PC mode, essentially removing having to make a choice between 4:4:4 chroma for SDR or bandy mcbandy sky for HDR! Now to use some high quality chroma upscalers again :D

Kodi DSPlayer messes with its Python paths, so I had to set it up this way in the switchtoPC batch file:
SET PYTHONHOME=C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python38
SET PYTHONPATH=C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python38\DLLs;C:\Users\Administrator\AppData\Local\Programs\Python\Python38\Lib
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.58 set_device_info HDMI_4 pc PC

Now I can define variables in madVR to choose when to switch to PC mode or "HDMI" mode.
As I understood it, deactivating profiles works when you switch profiles in playback and not when stopping playback like you would imagine.

@sepp1234 I think it's pretty standard now to allow the user to input their own HDR tonemapping curve matching the actual display luminance. It was introduced after the 8 series, unfortunately. I read from Ted that there were some C8 firmwares released to clients by LG which allowed custom tone curves, but would never be released to the public.

sepp1234

17th January 2022, 23:38

@sepp1234 I think it's pretty standard now to allow the user to input their own HDR tonemapping curve matching the actual display luminance. It was introduced after the 8 series, unfortunately. I read from Ted that there were some C8 firmwares released to clients by LG which allowed custom tone curves, but would never be released to the public.[/QUOTE]

@Hammy You are right. But in the Panasonics you can easily change this in the display menu. Turning it on/off and setting the clipping point to whatever you want it with a view clicks on the remote. And you can use individual clipping points for each HDMI port.

SamuriHL

18th January 2022, 01:58

Things I'm looking forward to if I do go ahead with my plan to upgrade to a 77" G2 later this year...

chros

18th January 2022, 10:59

@chros Great work! Now I can use your tool to automatically switch between PC and non-PC mode, essentially removing having to make a choice between 4:4:4 chroma for SDR or bandy mcbandy sky for HDR! Now to use some high quality chroma upscalers again :D
Nice! Which GPU do you have? You can take a look at the link in my signature for more setup links.

Now I can define variables in madVR to choose when to switch to PC mode or "HDMI" mode.
As I understood it, deactivating profiles works when you switch profiles in playback and not when stopping playback like you would imagine.
Not sure about that part, I never used the external script feature.

And lastly (since I don't use Kodi), I also use this android remote (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175007) with mpc-be/hc.

Things I'm looking forward to if I do go ahead with my plan to upgrade to a 77" G2 later this year...
Let's see how they perform, C2 will be interesting for me, but there are already confusing articles.

SamuriHL

18th January 2022, 13:58

I agree. I want all the info before I drop that kind of coin on a new display. I've been holding off until things improved but I'm at the point now where the c8 needs to be replaced and moved. So I'm hoping the g2 hits it out of the park this year.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

19th January 2022, 13:52

@chros Great work! ...
And here's a temporary solution for HLG2HDR10 (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-61360313), until madshi finally adds it into madvr.
Not sure whether it's perfect, it results in way oversaturated image using DTM, but strangly not with passthrough. Maybe another file tag is needed for the source colorspace?

Kuler087

19th January 2022, 21:42

And here's a temporary solution for HLG2HDR10 (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-61360313), until madshi finally adds it into madvr.
Not sure whether it's perfect, it results in way oversaturated image using DTM, but strangly not with passthrough. Maybe another file tag is needed for the source colorspace?

Hi thank you and sorry for my ignorance but how do you use the code in madvr?
What tag? transfer=hdr and matrix=2020 ?

I would like to compare it with my method which involves re-encoding.
https://slow.pics/c/5nkGDpBZ ----> this is frame 4304 of The Green Planet S01E01 2160p HLG

chros

20th January 2022, 11:02

... how do you use the code in madvr?
What tag? transfer=hdr and matrix=2020 ?
- as madshi suggested: rename to filename to include "hdr=on" in it
- - not sure about the matrix tags, we have to play with it
- save the code as a text file e.g. "convert_hlg_to_pq.hlsl" into "MPC-BE\Shaders" directory
- - then right-click during playback -> Shaders -> select it at Pre-Resize shader -> add and enable it

Also, check which profile is selected in madvr (if you have multiple ones), I think there's a bug with profile selection when file tags are used, so switch it manually if it's needed.

I would like to compare it with my method which involves re-encoding.
https://slow.pics/c/5nkGDpBZ ----> this is frame 4304 of The Green Planet S01E01 2160p HLG
How do you reencode it?

Also, you can check mpcVR (https://github.com/Aleksoid1978/VideoRenderer/releases) how it looks like.
Lemme know your findings ... :)

Kuler087

20th January 2022, 16:28

- as madshi suggested: rename to filename to include "hdr=on" in it
- - not sure about the matrix tags, we have to play with it
- save the code as a text file e.g. "convert_hlg_to_pq.hlsl" into "MPC-BE\Shaders" directory
- - then right-click during playback -> Shaders -> select it at Pre-Resize shader -> add and enable it

Also, check which profile is selected in madvr (if you have multiple ones), I think there's a bug with profile selection when file tags are used, so switch it manually if it's needed.

Thank you!

I don't have an HDR monitor at work to test passthrough but as you said, HDR to SDR clearly is not working: oversaturated (no color difference with the shader or not ? I might not be using it right?). I'll take a look mpcVR.

resolve / madvr / HLG / mpcVR
https://i.ibb.co/C6MStdD/resolve.png (https://ibb.co/C6MStdD) https://i.ibb.co/NWSyhYs/madvr-shader.png (https://ibb.co/NWSyhYs) https://i.ibb.co/JtCLVdK/HLG-SDR.png (https://ibb.co/JtCLVdK) https://i.ibb.co/QrM8Wnj/mpcVR.png (https://ibb.co/QrM8Wnj)

mpcVr looks too bright to my taste but if I try to match brightness in madvr (150nits static):

https://i.ibb.co/JmyNpTt/resolve-150nits-static.png (https://ibb.co/JmyNpTt)

Resolve Dolby vision SDR tonemapping from HLG-HDR10:
https://i.ibb.co/XsPrw68/resolve-HDR-to-SDR.jpg (https://ibb.co/XsPrw68)

How do you reencode it?

Also, you can check mpcVR (https://github.com/Aleksoid1978/VideoRenderer/releases) how it looks like.
Lemme know your findings ... :)

With Davinci Resolve HLG in, HDR10 out. it's quite easy to do but time-consuming. But I can then generate DV. :)

chros

21st January 2022, 12:08

With Davinci Resolve HLG in, HDR10 out. it's quite easy to do but time-consuming.
I see, cheers.

I don't have an HDR monitor at work to test passthrough
Well, that's what we want to use/test :)

but as you said, HDR to SDR clearly is not working: oversaturated (no color difference with the shader or not ? I might not be using it right?).
Thanks for the images, yes, I think it's oversaturated a bit: why I think it is because with normal HDR10 content I have to add +5 saturation in madvr (I use the synthetic 3dlut with hdr output), while with this I have to remove it :)

It should be a clear color difference on-the-fly when you enable the shader with hdr output: without the shader it crushes black and blows out highlights.

I tried the matrix and source_primaries as well, but they don't do anything good.
I also tried to decrease saturation (in madvr, e.g. -5), but fire starts to become pink, so it's a no go.
Maye this saturate line (https://github.com/Aleksoid1978/VideoRenderer/blob/master/Shaders/d3d9/convert_hlg_to_sdr.hlsl#L22) is the issue? They added a comment here (https://github.com/Aleksoid1978/VideoRenderer/blob/master/Shaders/d3d11/ps_convert_hlg_to_pq.hlsl#L17) why they use it with d3d11 shaders (but this use different math):
"use saturate(), because pow() can not take negative values"
So I'll try it out with pow() instead ...

Let's use madmeasure v145 for testing, that looks to be a good build ...

EDIT: I tried "pow(color, 1.0)" instead of saturation but the image is the same, so that's not the issue.
Maybe this one (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1961831#post1961831) is?

quietvoid

22nd January 2022, 02:39

I don't really care about madVR anymore but I was curious about the mercury curve.
Overall it's pretty similar to my last custom curve, with a slight emphasis on highlight detail and contrast (therefore slightly dimmer midtones).

I'd say it's pretty much equivalent at punch 20, with defaults (HSTM limit) and HSTM Log Very Low.
I think most of the early feedback was around 12 for lower nits, which still looks very close to 20 at 870 nits.

Magik Mark

22nd January 2022, 06:02

Quietvoid

Did you delete your madvr HDR Tone mapping settings?

Magik Mark

22nd January 2022, 06:11

Chros

Do you still play around with new beta of madvr?

chros

22nd January 2022, 14:02

mercury curve.
Overall it's pretty similar to my last custom curve, with a slight emphasis on highlight detail and contrast (therefore slightly dimmer midtones).
I'd say it's pretty much equivalent at punch 20, with defaults (HSTM limit) and HSTM Log Very Low.
I think most of the early feedback was around 12 for lower nits, which still looks very close to 20 at 870 nits.
Thanks. What does the punch value does actually? Is it for the steepness of the curve? If so, higher value equals to higher steepness?

I don't like HSTM with high display peak and hdr passthrough, so it's disabled here.

I don't really care about madVR
Why is that, out of curiousity?

quietvoid

22nd January 2022, 15:48

Thanks. What does the punch value does actually? Is it for the steepness of the curve? If so, higher value equals to higher steepness?
I don't know what base algo is behind the curve, it may or may not be the same as custom curves (which were limited to 2-line and bt.2390).

Higher punch usually means brighter and more contrast.
With mercury nowadays there isn't any highlight detail loss even at punch 20 for our target nits.

I don't like HSTM with high display peak and hdr passthrough, so it's disabled here.
Have you tried the HSTM limit? It seems to solve the problem where HSTM would blow out highlights

Why is that, out of curiousity?
Mostly it's not convenient for me to use a PC for playback. Plus my TV's HDMI cable always falls off my GPU :(

Also, HDR10 is pretty much unwatchable for me either because of bad factory PQ tracking, or the 1D LUT issues I mentioned before.

Quietvoid

Did you delete your madvr HDR Tone mapping settings?

No I haven't deleted anything.

Magik Mark

22nd January 2022, 22:52

Quietvoid

Where is it located? Can't seem to find it

quietvoid

23rd January 2022, 00:13

I don't know, it's outdated anyways.

quietvoid

25th January 2022, 03:36

@chros Have you tried this? https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/page-191#post-61381379

Magik Mark

1st February 2022, 01:08

quietvoid,

If you have the time to play around with the new madvr beta, pls do so. Tried it using most of your last setting and it looks promising. The setting being shared in the avs forum are mostly for front projectors. We need something that is for OLED

quietvoid

1st February 2022, 16:24

SamuriHL

1st February 2022, 20:09

I may poke around with it over the next few days. I just ordered a longer HDMI cable so I can hook my laptop up to my VRROOM for testing. Ultimately I've not been using a PC solution for quite a few months now and honestly haven't missed it much.

VBB

1st February 2022, 20:46

Seems to be a trend ;)

(at least among those of us whose video cards died an untimely death)

SamuriHL

1st February 2022, 21:56

Yea I'm honestly more interested in saving up for a new G2 (potentially) than I am a new HTPC. There are differences in using madvr dtm, there's no question. But I'd argue, as many others have, that if you're watching mostly 1000 nit content on a 870 nit screen, the benefit to dtm is not going to be super huge. Hence, I don't really miss it much.

chros

1st February 2022, 22:38

DoVi perfect black (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/post-61404939) with 2018 models, 2nd round :)

VBB

1st February 2022, 23:05

Saw your post over at AVS earlier. I don't seem to have this particular issue with my C7. While DV content itself is often not 100% black, test patterns and black bars usually are.

*Edited from "always" to "usually" LOL

ashlar42

2nd February 2022, 13:12

I have no interest in using madVR so I won't be testing new settings. Sorry.
What are you using, nowadays? I remember SamuriHL mentioning Nvidia Shield (IIRC).

quietvoid

2nd February 2022, 15:05

What are you using, nowadays? I remember SamuriHL mentioning Nvidia Shield (IIRC).

I use my Firestick 4K Max mostly, so pretty much the same I guess.
Though I'll have to try using mpv after my HDR calibration is fixed, I doubt I'll actually use the PC because it's less convenient anyways.

SamuriHL

2nd February 2022, 20:00

Yup, I'm using a Shield Pro. Dolby Vision for things that have it, HDR10 for those that don't. I also have an ATV 4K 2nd gen. And of course my UB820. I don't feel I'm missing out on much with this setup.

SamuriHL

3rd February 2022, 15:25

SamuriHL

3rd February 2022, 15:50

OTOH, new job and my birthday is in a few weeks. I've made a command decision I didn't think I'd make. I'm rebuilding the HTPC with my 2070 using a Ryzen 5900x. God help me.

quietvoid

3rd February 2022, 17:42

That was a short lived attempt at madvr on my laptop. I've never gotten it to work right when outputting to the C8. This time was no exception. I can't get it to trigger HDR. I switch back to JRVR and it works perfectly fine. Whatever. I'm over trying to deal with that.

Does your laptop run an AMD/Nvidia GPU?
I read madVR only supports the driver APIs, instead of using Windows' APIs (DirectX/Direct3D, not sure).

Though I don't know what JRVR uses for HDR passthrough, it could either be Vulkan or D3D11. Both of which should have generic APIs.

SamuriHL

3rd February 2022, 17:49

Does your laptop run an AMD/Nvidia GPU?
I read madVR only supports the driver APIs, instead of using Windows' APIs (DirectX/Direct3D, not sure).

Though I don't know what JRVR uses for HDR passthrough, it could either be Vulkan or D3D11. Both of which should have generic APIs.

It's an alienware area-51m with rtx 2080, so, yea it's using the nVidia GPU. No idea why madvr didn't want to play nice. I don't care. I'm going to rebuild the HTPC after all this time and give myself some more options. Getting the new job this year allows me to splurge a little bit on some upgrades. So...screw it.

nevcairiel

4th February 2022, 02:15

Though I don't know what JRVR uses for HDR passthrough, it could either be Vulkan or D3D11. Both of which should have generic APIs.

It favors D3D11 on Windows due to integration with hardware decoding and D3D11 video processing for deinterlacing. Technically both of those could still be used and then go Vulkan, but then I would first have to implement resource sharing between D3D11 and Vulkan, so more extra steps for probably no major gain. :)

SamuriHL

4th February 2022, 04:31

No need to change it. It works very well as is.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

SamuriHL

13th February 2022, 01:50

For the love of all things holy, nVidia. So it turns out my HTPC issues were again caused by the 2nd 2070 card they RMA'd to me failing in the EXACT SAME WAY as the previous 2. To their credit they are sending me yet another one once I RMA this one back. I really hate the people that have driven up the prices of new RTX cards as I would have simply upgraded at this point. So I can fix my old HTPC (the ram is indeed still defective and won't post above 2133 which is bad....oh Corsair! LOL) and have that for my bedroom when I upgrade to a new display later this year. Assuming, you guessed it, I can find it a video card. LOL

SamuriHL

14th February 2022, 22:25

My patience finally ran out. Given my b-day is this weekend and I wanted a newly rebuilt HTPC (plug gaming), and given that the 2070 is dead for the 3rd time now and I just sent it back today, I opted to go the more....exotic approach to acquiring a new video card. Short version is I'll have enough parts left over to rebuild my old machine for the 2070 for my bedroom and I will have a brand new ASUS 3080 by Thursday. I will have a brand new 5900x, pc3600 ddr4 32 gigs, 980 pro 1tb nvme pci 4, water cooled machine with a 3080 TUF card in it. Happy birthday to me. LOL

huhn

15th February 2022, 05:21

there is an Samsung OEM disc which is the same as the samsung pro 980 just cheaper (even "faster" on paper).
the PM9A1
do your self a favor and get an i5-i7 12000 series clearly better for gaming. yes times can change pretty fast.
the water "cooling" is beyond me but do what you like.

welcome back until your UPS goes on a killing spree again.

SamuriHL

15th February 2022, 05:26

I got the 980 on sale so I did well with that.

The new machine I just bought has an 11xxx Intel chip. If I decide to stick with Intel I could use that but I'm pretty sure the 5900x will be just fine. The 11xxx will upgrade the old machine for the bedroom.

As for the ups no doubt on that. It's been replaced for a few months now so I should be good.

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SamuriHL

17th February 2022, 13:11

It's so nice to be back up and running. Got the 3080 yesterday. I tweaked madvr a bit and watched jurassic world on it. Very nice. I have absolutely no idea what settings are going to be best for oled right now. But I have a long weekend coming up so I'll play around.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

pragmatick

18th February 2022, 19:00

I have a new LG C1. I configured madVr to pass through HDR content and enabled some display modes, e.g. 2160p23. Playing a 4K video sets the resolution to 2160p with 23hz. The nvidia control panel (https://i.imgur.com/FxT628F.png) says as much, with RGB full output at 12 bit. The madvr OSD (https://i.imgur.com/433o1jd.png) says "NV HDR, 12 bit, RGB, full" and "D3D11 windowed (8 bit)". But the colors are all wrong and the image is way too dim.

If I change the color output depth in the nvidia control panel and reopen the file then the colors are correct. It doesn't matter if I change it to 10 bit or 12 bit, in both cases the colors are correct and madvr will show the appropriate value in the OSD. When I close the media player (and the desktop resolution is restored to 2160p120) and reopen the file (and the resolution is changed again to 2160p23) the colors are wrong again and I can fix it by changing the output bit.

Does anybody have any ideas what's going on and how I can make it work instantly? I mean, the workaround kinda fixes it, but it's really a hassle and I'd like it to work from the start... Thanks.

chros

18th February 2022, 19:25

Which OS, GPU and driver?

quietvoid

2nd March 2022, 01:43

There seems to be a bug with madTPG + HDR and the latest beta(s). It's sending something close to 2.2 instead of PQ.
Maybe intentional? No idea.

If I had the TV in 2.2 mode, the measurements were linear.

chros

5th March 2022, 14:06

quietvoid

5th March 2022, 16:40

I don't, I just reverted back to the latest non-beta version.

chros

5th March 2022, 20:20

I don't, I just reverted back to the latest non-beta version.
That's what I did as well when I did calibration. I reported your bug to him.

ashlar42

12th March 2022, 12:47

Say I don't particularly care for HDR, I have a 77C1 calibrated to 107 nits in SDR and would like to tonemap 4K HDR content in order to view it in SDR, is there a suggested set of settings for pixel shader tonemapping I could use? The panel to configure HDR is such a smorgasbord of options I wouldn't know where to begin.

huhn

12th March 2022, 12:48

you start by typing peak nits 107 in but else no one really agrees on everything.

ashlar42

12th March 2022, 12:50

you start by typing peak nits 107 in but else no one really agrees on everything.
Yup, that's what I did. Results were most definitely acceptable. I hoped there was some sort of "middle ground" consensus on what good settings for the rest of the options would be.

I mean, I doubt that Envy does not have sensible defaults to offer. Are they opaque to end users?

(It's not that I don't think HDR makes a difference, it definitely does. It's just that it's a difference I often don't particularly like. Typical interior scenes with blinding windows in the background are an example, neon lights equally blinding in nighttime settings are another)

SamuriHL

12th March 2022, 13:31

Go to the avs thread and look for neoxp and javs settings. Right now there's no concensus on "best" settings because they're currently trying to figure out what luminance methods are providing the best quality at various nit levels and options. With your display, however you should set madvr to output rec.2020 or dci-p3. It really depends on how you've calibrated your display. But using one of their settings as a base will be a good starting point. Other than that you'll have to massage the options to find what you like. Yes envy offers a curated set of settings but we aren't privy to what they are.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

ashlar42

12th March 2022, 13:38

With your display, however you should set madvr to output rec.2020 or dci-p3.
How can I do that just for HDR movies? I suppose using profiles but what to set and where? I just see "report BT.2020 (Nvidia only" in the Calibration tab. I use Nvidia, so I could use it but I doubt that's the setting you refer to.

Yes envy offers a curated set of settings but we aren't privy to what they are.

Oh, ok. I wasn't aware of this. Kinda surprising that... I don't know, considering pretty much all of the testing for DTM comes from the community. :-/

SamuriHL

12th March 2022, 13:45

In the calibration settings you select this display is calibrated and then set the colorspace to the appropriate option. Yes profiles will help here.

As for envy he uses the feedback from madvr to improve the envy. However it's not meant to replicate the complexity of an htpc. The interface is simplified because that's the experience you're paying for with envy.

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ashlar42

13th March 2022, 03:20

In the calibration settings you select this display is calibrated and then set the colorspace to the appropriate option. Yes profiles will help here.
Hmmm... ok. I have the TV calibrated through internal 3D LUT / Colorspace.

If I understand things correctly, that would mean having a SDR picture mode calibrated to wide color space, in order to use it for tonemapped HDR content. Am I correct?

SamuriHL

13th March 2022, 03:29

Yup. These tvs have separate luts for sdr.2020 and rec.709. Colourspace can generate it and then you can upload it to the lut slot.

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ashlar42

13th March 2022, 15:50

Yup. These tvs have separate luts for sdr.2020 and rec.709. Colourspace can generate it and then you can upload it to the lut slot.
Let me see if I understand what you're saying.

What I know is that, on my TV, I can upload 3D LUT for Cinema, Filmmaker, ISF Day and ISF Night picture modes.

My current go to picture mode for "critical/nighttime" viewing is Cinema. That has a 0.2x delta average measured on 1,000 points.
This is with a 3DLUT targeting rec.709.

Are you saying I could take the same measurements (just for experimenting, months have passed and I would need to take new ones) and recalculate a 3DLUT targeting sdr.2020 and upload it to the Cinema picture mode without deleting the existing rec.709 one?

It seems strange to me because I don't understand how the TV could "detect" the color space used by source material. But I'm ignorant.

Or that picture mode would have to be dedicated to this "frankenstein" 4K "non HDR/WCG" viewing approach?

SamuriHL

13th March 2022, 15:58

The TV knows the colorspace being sent. Yes you can have both bt.2020 and rec.709 luts loaded at the same time. The trick to this is in devicemanager you have to select sdr.2020 when enabling calibration mode AND the display must be receiving a bt.2020 signal. There are many ways to do that. I'm lazy so I just switch over to my tivo. lol but the new closed beta of pgen can send the proper metadata. An HD fury device can do it. Or any bt.2020 enabled device, really. Taking your last profile (or a new one) when generating the bt.2020 lut use the map space option. Depending on the gamma target you may have to also create a custom colorspace. Use the uhd 2020 colorspace as a base and change the gamma. Once you generate the lut, export it and upload it as I outlined above. The TV will then choose which lut to use based on content.

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ashlar42

13th March 2022, 17:01

The trick to this is in devicemanager you have to select sdr.2020 when enabling calibration mode AND the display must be receiving a bt.2020 signal. There are many ways to do that. I'm lazy so I just switch over to my tivo. lol but the new closed beta of pgen can send the proper metadata. An HD fury device can do it. Or any bt.2020 enabled device, really.
Could I use the "report BT.2020 to display (Nvidia only)" option under calibration to achieve this? I use an RTX 3070.

SamuriHL

13th March 2022, 20:55

Yea that should work.

(And obviously I meant devicecontrol not devicemanager earlier...)

ashlar42

14th March 2022, 00:31

(And obviously I meant devicecontrol not devicemanager earlier...)Didn't even notice the mistake... months of Colorspace are prevailing over decades of Windows, apparently. :D

SamuriHL

14th March 2022, 00:43

I had just woken up and was on my phone when I posted that. DevMan, DevControl....whatever. LOL

SamuriHL

8th April 2022, 21:04

So chros, we're going to have some fun soon, eh? :D I can't wait!! Best Buy needs to hurry the hell up already. LMAO

chros

8th April 2022, 23:58

I just bought a 77G2, so the game will be on again in couple of weeks :)

VBB

9th April 2022, 01:54

Baller! Congrats ;)

SamuriHL

9th April 2022, 04:43

I'm getting mine just as soon as it's available. I have to wait for best buy for various reasons but the c8 will move to my bedroom and the 77 g2 will replace it. It's going to be awesome!

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

9th April 2022, 09:35

Cheers guys, and I'm glad that I won't be alone with this :)

Damien147

10th April 2022, 14:03

SamuriHL

10th April 2022, 17:50

It should be as long as you're not planning over 8 bit IIRC. For the 60Hz, that is. If you want anything over 8 bit, you won't be able to use 4:4:4 for 60Hz. Of course, I could be misremembering.

JaylumX

10th April 2022, 18:48

Hello!
I have thoughts on buying an LG C1 which is hdmi 2.1 but my gpu is hdmi 2.0b and I don't plan to change it.My plan is to have 4:4:4 RGB UHD in 60hz for general usage(PC MODE) and 4:4:4 RGB UHD in 24hz for movies with working HDR.Is this possible with my hdmi 2.0b card?Of course in use with MadVR.

It should be possible to get RGB full range, HDR and 10 bit colour with 60hz over HDMI 2.0b.

I have had two 10 bit 60hz displays, one with supported HDR and I was able to use all the above features with RGB full range.

chros

10th April 2022, 19:18

I have thoughts on buying an LG C1 which is hdmi 2.1 but my gpu is hdmi 2.0b and I don't plan to change it.My plan is to have 4:4:4 RGB UHD in 60hz for general usage(PC MODE) and 4:4:4 RGB UHD in 24hz for movies with working HDR.Is this possible with my hdmi 2.0b card?Of course in use with MadVR.
I'm in the same shoes, I don't plan to replace my trusted 1060 6GB, until it's absolutely necessary. But we don't get RGB Full 10/12bit in 50/60Hz for sure, only 8bit.
But if you only want to use it for videos/movies then it won't be an issue.
If you want to play games then you need at least the cheapest nvidia 3000 card ...

It should be possible to get RGB full range, HDR and 10 bit colour with 60hz over HDMI 2.0b.
I have had two 10 bit 60hz displays, one with supported HDR and I was able to use all the above features with RGB full range.
Not sure how, there's no bandwidth :) wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Refresh_frequency_limits_for_HDR10_video) , extron (https://www.extron.com/article/hdmi2faq)

It should be as long as you're not planning over 8 bit IIRC. For the 60Hz, that is. If you want anything over 8 bit, you won't be able to use 4:4:4 for 60Hz. Of course, I could be misremembering.
Yes, that's the case, RGB Full 8bit at 50/60Hz is fine (or YCBCR 4:2:0 subsampling with 10/12bit).
Only at 30Hz and below we can get RGB Full 10/12bit.

SamuriHL

10th April 2022, 19:20

Ok, then I remembered correctly. Yet another reason I'm super excited to get the G2 and pair it with my 3080.

chros

10th April 2022, 19:35

Yes, that will be fun! And I hope that I don't have to replace my card due to processing issues at lower refresh rates :D

SamuriHL

10th April 2022, 20:10

That's certainly one way to look at it. :D My replaced 2070, which I've not used much since I got it back, will be on the C8 in the bedroom. Unless it dies AGAIN, it's not getting replaced any time soon. The 3080 is a freaking beast. I really truly love that upgrade and am looking forward to seeing what it can do when paired with the G2 with the full HDMI 2.1 bandwidth. Nothing excites me more than being able to upload a custom tone curve, however. Measure the damn thing and HOPE it hits 950 nits, upload a custom tone curve to roll off at 950, and pretty much eliminate tone mapping altogether for 90+% of our content. :D That is super exciting.

chros

10th April 2022, 20:58

Exactly, especially in PC mode :) And setting up another HDR10 preset for passthrough only, so we can switch between them easily and compare the result.
About the custom tonemapping params: I refuse to believe that 10% window result is valid for it (just as we did with madvr). According to Vincent's G2 first look video, it's set to 1000 nits internally (using HGIG), so this also needs some testing.
My biggest fear is the black crush/elevated blacks in SDR/HDR10/DoVi modes, since no one tested it yet. :)

Damien147

11th April 2022, 00:05

So good news it seems.HDR on this TV(C1)will work with hdmi2.0b card,right?

SamuriHL

11th April 2022, 00:07

We can calibrate black issues out of existence for the most part. I'm not terribly concerned about that. I will be avoiding 1d lut calibration as usual. I'll do a sm white point d65 calibration. Then I'll do a 2 point calibration for hdr. Uploading a custom tone curve. I think dv needs a 20 point calibration and the configuration uploaded. That should be all that's needed.

If it's truly set to 1000 ootb then we may be close enough anyway but better to measure and create it accurate. Then set madvr to that and the tv won't tone map. That's what I want very badly.

And yes of course PC mode for 4:4:4. God I can't wait. This better be the week for best buy else in going to the store and finding out wtf is going on.

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SamuriHL

11th April 2022, 00:08

So good news it seems.HDR on this TV(C1)will work with hdmi2.0b card,right?Yes definitely.

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Damien147

11th April 2022, 00:12

Not sure yet if I'll buy the TV but wanted to know to see if it's worth it.Thank you very much guys.

chros

11th April 2022, 10:48

We can calibrate black issues out of existence for the most part. I'm not terribly concerned about that.
That's not enough for me, I want perfection from LG this time! :)

I will be avoiding 1d lut calibration as usual. I'll do a sm white point d65 calibration. Then I'll do a 2 point calibration for hdr. Uploading a custom tone curve. I think dv needs a 20 point calibration and the configuration uploaded. That should be all that's needed.
That's fine with SDR, but as you know we used 1dlut for HDR10 and for me on the B8 it did wonders, so I plan to do it in HDR10 and DoVi as well.
Also, I'll keep using the SDR hack with 234 nits and gamma 2.68. I guess you haven't tried it yet, you'll love it! :)

Btw, just checked yesterday, and there's no 2022 model support in DeviceControl yet (last year it was added on 9th of May), so let's hope they will be fast again.

If it's truly set to 1000 ootb then we may be close enough anyway but better to measure and create it accurate.
Yes, but I'm not sure at all whether that's accurate :) we have to play around with that as well.

I'm just a bit scared of tinting/banding/grid/and-who-knows-what-else :)

SamuriHL

11th April 2022, 11:46

I asked about device control last week and was told as soon as they can get their hands on one they'll add support for it.

No, I've not messed with my sdr configuration as it's damn near flawless... or as much as my c8 with it's panel specific flaws allows, anyway. I lost the panel lottery on my c8. As for hdr and dv I'm pretty happy with the c8 on those. Obviously we want the g2 to not just be better, but exponentially better.

I'm with you on the concern about artifacts. But it HAS to be better than what we have on the 2018 models. They've had quite a bit of time to improve things.

I'm not sure we'll get perfection but it will be much closer than we're at now.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

SamuriHL

12th April 2022, 02:13

I already know what you're going to say to this but I finally broke down and ordered myself a Spectrophotometer. I really want my calibration for the G2 to be as close to reference as absolutely possible. And being able to play around with AWP will be nice, as well. Given that I will have 2 TV's to calibrate, being able to profile the colorimeter to the spectro per device made the cost sting a little bit less. If I'm spending this much on a new panel, I want it reference quality. An unprofiled colorimeter is useful, but, a profiled one is better for true accuracy. I grabbed an I1 Pro 3. I should be getting it later this week so I'm going to re-calibrate the C8 after profiling the meter. That should be fun.

chros

12th April 2022, 17:27

I asked about device control last week and was told as soon as they can get their hands on one they'll add support for it.
Cheers

No, I've not messed with my sdr configuration as it's damn near flawless...
No worries, but you have to (!) promise me that you will this time!!! :) And you can thank me later .. :)

I'm with you on the concern about artifacts. But it HAS to be better than what we have on the 2018 models. They've had quite a bit of time to improve things.

Let's pray to the gods of Oled panels :)

1 big improvment we have to see is motion! And I talk about frame matched non-interpolated pure motion.
I user stated before that the C1 was a big step from 2018 models, and Classy just stated that the C2 even better in this. I'm really curious what they are talking about, because I don't have issue with it on the B8 personally, maybe I just got used to it.

I already know what you're going to say to this but ... And being able to play around with AWP will be nice, as well. ... An unprofiled colorimeter is useful, but, a profiled one is better for true accuracy. I grabbed an I1 Pro 3.
:) Nice, I won't say no to it :) more than that: thank You! Although I asked already Classy to create spectral correction for us (for Calman and DisplayCal (he never used it yet), and not sure the Calman one can also be used for ColorSpace), but I'll probably ask you as well (since we will have the same size, Classy only will have the 65 and 83 I guess), to create those after the breakin period. :) Let's talk about it once we get there, and thank You in advance!!!
I'd be curios about the changed factory AWP for Evo panels, I just heard about it.

Btw, which one did you buy? I saw there are 3 versions and the Pro is just eeexpensive :)

SamuriHL

12th April 2022, 18:15

Cheers

It was at the forefront of my mind, as well, believe me. :) Ted said they'd add it just as soon as they can get ahold of one so that's good.

No worries, but you have to (!) promise me that you will this time!!! :) And you can thank me later .. :)

With the new TV being able to FULLY reset individual picture modes, you can be sure I plan on trying a few things. ;)

Let's pray to the gods of Oled panels :)

1 big improvment we have to see is motion! And I talk about frame matched non-interpolated pure motion.
I user stated before that the C1 was a big step from 2018 models, and Classy just stated that the C2 even better in this. I'm really curious what they are talking about, because I don't have issue with it on the B8 personally, maybe I just got used to it.

I really want to "win" the panel lottery this time round. I saw that on the motion. That is going to be SUPER exciting. I watch a fair bit of sports so that'll be nice. What they're talking about is the frame insertion stuff that has to be done because the panels are native 60 (2018 models) and 120 (BOOYA). By inserting those frames it makes the motion look a little janky in panning scenes. They claim that's MUCH improved now so I'm very excited to see that. I'm less excited about the white balance issues with the new EVO panels that we'll need to deal with. Which brings me to....

:) Nice, I won't say no to it :) more than that: thank You! Although I asked already Classy to create spectral correction for us (for Calman and DisplayCal (he never used it yet), and not sure the Calman one can also be used for ColorSpace), but I'll probably ask you as well (since we will have the same size, Classy only will have the 65 and 83 I guess), to create those after the breakin period. :) Let's talk about it once we get there, and thank You in advance!!!
I'd be curios about the changed factory AWP for Evo panels, I just heard about it.

I don't have a desire to reinstall Calman to create a meter profile for it. I don't use DisplayCal either so I'll be no help there. Nonetheless I'm more than happy to help here. Obviously there are going to be panel differences and meter differences but it's worth trying anyway. You can always grab ColourSpace Zero ;)

And yes, I read about the WP balance issues on these panels, as well. That's going to be oh so fun to correct out of the TV. I'm going for D65 on an initial calibration after break in. I'll use the spectro obviously to dial that in. In theory the same D65 WP correction can be used for all modes due to how it works. I usually create a separate one for HDR/DV though. But you don't HAVE to with D65.

When the spectro comes tomorrow or Thursday I'll spend the weekend practicing on the C8. That damn thing has given me SO much trouble calibrating. I mean my DE are below 1.5 but still, come on...these panels can get down to DE 0.5! :)

Btw, which one did you buy? I saw there are 3 versions and the Pro is just eeexpensive :)

i1Basic Pro 3. Nothing fancy. 1600 bucks which isn't too bad considering how much a professional calibration per tv costs. Being able to profile the meter before calibration is going to make me feel better on these very expensive G2's.

Best Buy did not make me happy this morning. No ETA other than "soon" on when it'll be released. The place I got my spectro from has the G2 77 in stock for 200 less than Best Buy. I can't tell you how tempted I am but then I'd have to mount it myself. Which isn't THAT big a deal given that the mount is already on wall. I swapped the mount in my bedroom to the same exact mount in the living room so that I can simply move the C8 from one room to the other. So basically it's just adding the mount brackets to the G2 (measuring the crap out of it first to ensure it fits the very tight spot I have available for it) and then getting someone to help me lift it onto the mount. I will need to run the cables BEFORE mounting, however. I may run an extra HDMI cable just in case and wrap it in the mount. The cable channels run right behind the mount bracket so once it's up on the wall I'm not running cables in the channels.

I'm really looking forward to it. I have a firm date that the TV needs to be mounted by. Best Buy better get their s*** together as I'm running out of patience. Memorial Day weekend that TV will be up on the wall and hopefully broken in and calibrated.

chros

13th April 2022, 09:41

With the new TV being able to FULLY reset individual picture modes, you can be sure I plan on trying a few things. ;)
That's a big thing! Also being able to profile DoVi modes without any special hardware :)

I saw that on the motion. That is going to be SUPER exciting. I watch a fair bit of sports so that'll be nice. What they're talking about is the frame insertion stuff that has to be done because the panels are native 60 (2018 models) and 120 (BOOYA). By inserting those frames it makes the motion look a little janky in panning scenes.
Our 2018 models are also 120Hz, only the BFI implementation was 60Hz just as on 2022 models (hence unusable).

1 more thing they mentioned (not sure starting from CX or C1) is the near black presentation in normal content, claiming it's so much better.

I don't have a desire to reinstall Calman to create a meter profile for it. I don't use DisplayCal either so I'll be no help there. Nonetheless I'm more than happy to help here. Obviously there are going to be panel differences and meter differences but it's worth trying anyway. You can always grab ColourSpace Zero ;)
OK, no worries about Claman, but I'd like to ask you to create 1 for Displaycal (can be don in 20 minutes including installing) :)
I also own ColorSpace (although never used it), so we can try that one as well. But it doesn't support auto-cal for HDR10/DoVi 1dluts , I guess :)

i1Basic Pro 3. Nothing fancy. 1600 bucks
Still pretty expensive :) Do you know how often does this new one need recalibration?

I have a firm date that the TV needs to be mounted by. Best Buy better get their s*** together as I'm running out of patience.
No rush, I still haven't got any shipment day for mine either.
I don't want to mount it, but getting the extra swivel stand instead, only problem is that you can't purchase it yet :)

SamuriHL

13th April 2022, 14:30

That's a big thing! Also being able to profile DoVi modes without any special hardware :)

Both are huge, no doubt!

Our 2018 models are also 120Hz, only the BFI implementation was 60Hz just as on 2022 models (hence unusable).

Of course you're correct.

1 more thing they mentioned (not sure starting from CX or C1) is the near black presentation in normal content, claiming it's so much better.

That would be very nice. That is supposed to be OLED's strong suit, after all. :)

OK, no worries about Claman, but I'd like to ask you to create 1 for Displaycal (can be don in 20 minutes including installing) :)
I also own ColorSpace (although never used it), so we can try that one as well. But it doesn't support auto-cal for HDR10/DoVi 1dluts , I guess :)

As long as there's idiot instructions on doing it, I'm happy to help. The spectro is out for delivery a day early so I plan on redoing my white point balance before watching Spider-man No Way Home (also out for delivery) this evening. The joys of having different white point calibrations for HDR/DV is that I don't have to screw up my SDR calibrations by changing it. :D This will get redone later.

Still pretty expensive :) Do you know how often does this new one need recalibration?

Once per year afaik. And it's a painful process where you have to send it back and if you want YOURS back it may take 3-4.....months. Owning a spectro is not for the faint of heart. Yes, expensive and I wouldn't have done it just for the C8. But now with 2 OLED's that can be calibrated and the amount of money we're spending on the G2, I felt it was worth having better accuracy.

No rush, I still haven't got any shipment day for mine either.
I don't want to mount it, but getting the extra swivel stand instead, only problem is that you can't purchase it yet :)

I'm SO glad to be done with stands in my 2 rooms. Wall mounting with a 22" arm is SOOOO nice. You want a truly movie theater experience, pull that sucker out from the wall 22" and sit close. :D

chros

14th April 2022, 12:26

As long as there's idiot instructions on doing it, I'm happy to help.
Thanks in advance, that'd be a big help! We can discuss it via PM when times comes.

The spectro is out for delivery ... Once per year afaik. And it's a painful process where you have to send it back and if you want YOURS back it may take 3-4.....months. Owning a spectro is not for the faint of heart.
That was what I was afraid of :) So nothing changed ... I think I'm too old for this ... :) That's why a huge thank You for this!!!

I'm SO glad to be done with stands in my 2 rooms. Wall mounting with a 22" arm is SOOOO nice. You want a truly movie theater experience, pull that sucker out from the wall 22" and sit close. :D
That's clever, I like it! :) Maybe one day here ...

Just wathced Classy's C1 Calibration video: he also only did 2 point for HDR/DoVi nothing else!!! I mean £%@$%£@$ ... :)

SamuriHL

14th April 2022, 14:27

Thanks in advance, that'd be a big help! We can discuss it via PM when times comes.

Yea, that's fine.

That was what I was afraid of :) So nothing changed ... I think I'm too old for this ... :) That's why a huge thank You for this!!!

I mean, that's the recommendation. For me, as long as it doesn't error when calibrating it on the calibration plate, meh...it's going to be good enough compared to an uncalibrated meter.

That's clever, I like it! :) Maybe one day here ...

It's freaking awesome even with the 65. With a 77 it'll be a whole other level of immersive which is what I'm going for. I pull up my recliner right in front of it and with the 7.1.2 ATMOS audio cranked, it really is an experience worthy of being called a home theater.

Just wathced Classy's C1 Calibration video: he also only did 2 point for HDR/DoVi nothing else!!! I mean £%@$%£@$ ... :)

And....you're surprised at this? I've been telling you for a while now that this is how it's done for OLED panels. They are far too unstable at high nits to properly calibrate for color accuracy. That's not likely to ever change with OLED. Just the nature of the beast. Although with DV you should be doing a 20 point calibration, not 2. And then the configuration upload. And he didn't upload a custom tone curve for HDR after the 2 point calibration? That also seems odd.

SamuriHL

14th April 2022, 20:30

Best Buy just lost another sale. Screw em. I ordered my G2 77 as I'm sick of waiting. I'll do the install myself with a friend. Hopefully that can get done next week. 5 to 9 days shipping. I suspect it'll be on the lower side of that but I don't really know.

chros

16th April 2022, 17:41

I mean, that's the recommendation. For me, as long as it doesn't error when calibrating it on the calibration plate, meh...it's going to be good enough compared to an uncalibrated meter.
Not sure how the i1pro evolved, but 2 of my i1pro v1 are unusable basically and they didn't error out :)
So be careful with that, mines do more harm than good.

It's freaking awesome even with the 65. With a 77 it'll be a whole other level of immersive which is what I'm going for. I pull up my recliner right in front of it and with the 7.1.2 ATMOS audio cranked, it really is an experience worthy of being called a home theater.
I agree, nice setup!

They are far too unstable at high nits to properly calibrate for color accuracy. That's not likely to ever change with OLED. Just the nature of the beast.
Yes, with WOLED, I wonder how the QD-OLED panels will behave in this regard.

And....you're surprised at this? I've been telling you for a while now that this is how it's done for OLED panels. ... Although with DV you should be doing a 20 point calibration, not 2. And then the configuration upload.
Yes, I saw that CS guys do it like that with HDR10, but I don't think they know about manually creating 1dlut for HDR10.
I guess the manual control for 20/22pt would be fine for DoVi, but autocal would be way more easier there as well.

Btw, do you know that can we reupload a saved profile with Calman finally??? :)

And he didn't upload a custom tone curve for HDR after the 2 point calibration? That also seems odd.
I don't think it was in the video.
Other interesting thing was that he used an external pattern generator and not the built-in one (in the TV) for whatever reason.

Best Buy just lost another sale. Screw em. I ordered my G2 77 as I'm sick of waiting. ... 5 to 9 days shipping..
Nice! Mine is delayed as well, ~2 weeks or so.

SamuriHL

16th April 2022, 18:27

Not sure how the i1pro evolved, but 2 of my i1pro v1 are unusable basically and they didn't error out :)
So be careful with that, mines do more harm than good.

Yea, we'll see how this goes. I very well may recertify it yearly.

I agree, nice setup!

Yea, it really is!

Yes, with WOLED, I wonder how the QD-OLED panels will behave in this regard.

It's a fair question. Although I have no intention of buying a year one new panel technology.

Yes, I saw that CS guys do it like that with HDR10, but I don't think they know about manually creating 1dlut for HDR10.
I guess the manual control for 20/22pt would be fine for DoVi, but autocal would be way more easier there as well.

They do know about 1dlut but as I said before, it tends to cause artifacts. If they don't for you, consider yourself blessed and lucky. And yes, 2pt for HDR, 22pt for DV is what I understand.

Btw, do you know that can we reupload a saved profile with Calman finally??? :)

After all these years of people asking for it, guess what! It still can't. LMAO

I don't think it was in the video.
Other interesting thing was that he used an external pattern generator and not the built-in one (in the TV) for whatever reason.

Not for "whatever reason". A very VERY specific reason. You can't validate the calibration with the iTPG. You simply have to go on faith that it was correct. Yuck.

Nice! Mine is delayed as well, ~2 weeks or so.

I got tired of waiting. So, we'll see when it gets here. Hopefully next week.

The spectro is super nice. I calibrated my white point D65 for HDR/DV and wow it really does look nice. I think I'll try D-Nice's AWP, however.

quietvoid

17th April 2022, 19:39

Seeing the recent comparisons of Samsung's S95B against an LG OLED, not sure if WOLED even is worth considering in the future.

SamuriHL

17th April 2022, 20:32

Future? Sure, WOLED's days are likely numbered. Now? Not so much. There's a ton of problems with QD OLED.

1) Where oh where is the large panel size....oh where oh where can it be?
2) Samsung doesn't do Dolby Vision. Sony does, and without any doubt they will be a future contender to consider when issue 1 is resolved
3) QD OLED is brand new this year. As such, I don't particular trust it when put up against a mature technology like WOLED. With all its faults, LG has improved year over year and has brought the tech as far as it can go with this year's models.

This is what I did with plasma, as well. I got a Panny plasma the year before they stopped making them because of LED TV's and OLED was being discussed as coming. Panny said "ok, that's enough of that" and went into OLED. That Panny plasma is still going strong today. It's now sitting back on its original stand and entertainment center in my spare room. It was hanging on my bedroom wall for the last year and some change. That was the pinnacle of plasma technology. WOLED is now at the pinnacle of its technology.

All that said, for the future, I agree. QD OLED and other tech will likely surpass WOLED. In 5 years when I'm ready to replace the G2, all options will be on the table as far as I'm concerned.

quietvoid

17th April 2022, 20:44

My C8 is not even 3 years old, otherwise I'd probably be upgrading as well.
Maybe next year, or when Sony's sets are available. Will have to see how the QD OLED looks in proper reviews.

SamuriHL

17th April 2022, 20:51

Mine's 4 years in June. I got it when it came out in 2018 as part of an entertainment system upgrade I did when I got a huge promotion. The job I landed in January gave me close to the same salary as that previous job so I figured another round of upgrades was in order. However, tallying up what I've spent since February, let's just say the G2 will be my last entertainment upgrade for quite a while. I broke 5 figures adding the spectro to the mix. New HTPC for the living room with a 3080, new HTPC for the bedroom with my old 2070, new NAS with 4x12TB drives + 2x4TB drives (these I had, the 12's are new), new 2.5Gb switch, new mount for the bedroom TV (the C8 will be going in there) to match the mount in the living room, total tech sub (completely useless), second VRROOM for the bedroom so I didn't have to replace the receiver to get HDR and DV, spectro, and finally the G2. Yea, I've been a bit naughty. And will need to pay some of that off in the coming weeks. But man, what an upgrade this is!

chros

18th April 2022, 12:46

After all these years of people asking for it, guess what! It still can't. LMAO
Thanks, that's a joke indeed!

Not for "whatever reason". A very VERY specific reason. You can't validate the calibration with the iTPG. You simply have to go on faith that it was correct. Yuck.
Hmm, I thought you can, I think 1 year ago someone said that only DoVi can't be verified, but not sure anymore. Anyway, it will turn out soon :)

The spectro is super nice. I calibrated my white point D65 for HDR/DV and wow it really does look nice. I think I'll try D-Nice's AWP, however.
Just keep in mind that AWPs depends on the spectros as well: unless D-Nice provided his AWP for i1pro3, it won't be good. You can ask Classy, he has the i1pro3.

Seeing the recent comparisons of Samsung's S95B against an LG OLED, not sure if WOLED even is worth considering in the future.
QD-OLED ... It's a fair question. Although I have no intention of buying a year one new panel technology.
Future? Sure, WOLED's days are likely numbered. Now? Not so much.
...
All that said, for the future, I agree. QD OLED and other tech will likely surpass WOLED.
It's truly impressive indeed! :)
Here's Classy's review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOdYFSxibeY) (short version), and he was blown away :)
1560 nits 1%, 1030 nits 10%, 215 100% in HDR10 mode :) Ridiculous! :D

@jk82 asked in the other thread that how is the PQ tracking in HDR10 on S95B: Filmmaker preset is seemingly the right one, while Movie preset visible brightens the image, but during measurements both presets tracked PQ perfectly!!! Meaning something fishy going on (maybe they detect patch measurements?) ...
So, who knows how accurate these numbers are in real content, although Samsung is clearly brighter than the LG C1/Sony A90J (from Fomo).

There are reports that the initial Sony A95K samples (from couple of months ago) were way dimmer (~900 nits 10%), so it will be interesting to see how the actual production units will behave.

2) Samsung doesn't do Dolby Vision. Sony does, and without any doubt they will be a future contender to consider when issue 1 is resolved
I guess this is an issue for you as well, @quietvoid :)
About Sony's DoVi: owners are pissed again :) , claiming they still couldn't do it properly on last year models (not sure exactly what the issue is, I think from external sources ...)

3) QD OLED is brand new this year. As such, I don't particular trust it when put up against a mature technology like WOLED. With all its faults, LG has improved year over year and has brought the tech as far as it can go with this year's models.
I agree. Furthermore:
- there's not enough panel supply yet (hence there's only 55" and 65" sizes), since yields were low 4-5 months ago (30-40% ?), they just announced the 75% yield (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/news-displays-and-their-technologies.3218193/post-61595196), targeting 90% till the end of year
- panel structure will be changed (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/news-displays-and-their-technologies.3218193/post-61592364) next year
- new more efficient OLED blue material (both used by LG and Samsung) will be here in 2 years (2024)
- also not sure what their plan is with QD-OLED in the "long" run: it was supposed to be just a couple of transitioning year until qNED, but if it will be a huge success then maybe they will just get stick to it to get out of it as much profit as they can :)
- Chinese will also start producing WOLED (!) as well :)

One thing for sure LG will be in deep sh*t in the near future, after owning the throne for almost a decade. :)
They have to come up with something soon: I can only hope that it will be their qNED implementation, but we have to wait for it until 2025, at least, and then again it will be 1st gen :)

And that's how we got here:
My C8 is not even 3 years old, otherwise I'd probably be upgrading as well.
Maybe next year, or when Sony's sets are available. Will have to see how the QD OLED looks in proper reviews.
Mine's 4 years in June.
Mine is also "only" 3 years old :) If we had proper image processing then I wouldn't upgrade it either, but we don't, and I got fed up with it :) , also I came across with a deal that I couldn't refuse.

About image processing:
- S95B: has postarization, motion interpolation is crap, we don't know anything about PC mode (because no one really test it :) )
- A95K: will be dimmer?, DoVi will be fixed finally after 4-5 years??? :), will they fix 23p motion (from PC)?, and who knows what else...

If you are only looking for 55"/65", I'm pretty sure that LG has to drop prices massively this year, due to QD-OLED, the only question is when, but not sure about above and below since there's no contest this year.
So, I'd say, there are lot of unknowns for now, so LG is still a safe bet this/next year, if image processing is flawless and we won't have uniformity issues (banding, tinting, grid, rest of the sh*t :) ).

About "if image processing is flawless" : what I can promise you guys is that you will know everything about this in the upcoming months! :) So, you can decide whether upgrading worths it to you or not ...

Kuler087

18th April 2022, 15:15

I'm thinking of upgrading my C8 to the G2 as well. Can't wait for your reviews.
Thanks, guys!

SamuriHL

18th April 2022, 15:58

Thanks, that's a joke indeed!

Calman has failed to impress me for quite some time now. It was useful to learn the ins and outs of calibration but autocal is a myth.

Hmm, I thought you can, I think 1 year ago someone said that only DoVi can't be verified, but not sure anymore. Anyway, it will turn out soon :)

Unsure about HDR but that one's irrelevant. You can validate that with a pgenerator. The iTPG can't ever be used for validation because of where it falls in the video chain. I have hope that someday we'll be able to do DV with another external device.

Just keep in mind that AWPs depends on the spectros as well: unless D-Nice provided his AWP for i1pro3, it won't be good. You can ask Classy, he has the i1pro3.

From what I can tell, the i1pro2 and i1pro3 are more or less the same. But yes, research will be needed on that. Also for 77 and up D-Nice says to use D65. It's only the smaller panels that he recommends an AWP.

It's truly impressive indeed! :)
Here's Classy's review (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOdYFSxibeY) (short version), and he was blown away :)
1560 nits 1%, 1030 nits 10%, 215 100% in HDR10 mode :) Ridiculous! :D

@jk82 asked in the other thread that how is the PQ tracking in HDR10 on S95B: Filmmaker preset is seemingly the right one, while Movie preset visible brightens the image, but during measurements both presets tracked PQ perfectly!!! Meaning something fishy going on (maybe they detect patch measurements?) ...
So, who knows how accurate these numbers are in real content, although Samsung is clearly brighter than the LG C1/Sony A90J (from Fomo).

There are reports that the initial Sony A95K samples (from couple of months ago) were way dimmer (~900 nits 10%), so it will be interesting to see how the actual production units will behave.

I'm not convinced yet. Vincent tweeted out that Samsung has managed to fool many so-called professional calibrators with this new panel. I don't know what that means but I suspect Samsung is up to some tricks. All of this validates my decision to ignore that QD OLED is a thing and to instead focus on how big of an upgrade the G2 is over the C8. And yes, I do some gaming so I'm really excited to see what it can do at 120Hz with G-Sync.

I guess this is an issue for you as well, @quietvoid :)
About Sony's DoVi: owners are pissed again :) , claiming they still couldn't do it properly on last year models (not sure exactly what the issue is, I think from external sources ...)

Wait, are they still doing LLDV????? Seriously?!

I agree. Furthermore:
- there's not enough panel supply yet (hence there's only 55" and 65" sizes), since yields were low 4-5 months ago (30-40% ?), they just announced the 75% yield (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/news-displays-and-their-technologies.3218193/post-61595196), targeting 90% till the end of year
- panel structure will be changed (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/news-displays-and-their-technologies.3218193/post-61592364) next year
- new more efficient OLED blue material (both used by LG and Samsung) will be here in 2 years (2024)
- also not sure what their plan is with QD-OLED in the "long" run: it was supposed to be just a couple of transitioning year until qNED, but if it will be a huge success then maybe they will just get stick to it to get out of it as much profit as they can :)
- Chinese will also start producing WOLED (!) as well :)

One thing for sure LG will be in deep sh*t in the near future, after owning the throne for almost a decade. :)
They have to come up with something soon: I can only hope that it will be their qNED implementation, but we have to wait for it until 2025, at least, and then again it will be 1st gen :)

I'm sure I'll be happy enough with the G2 to keep it for 5 years unless something really mind-blowing happens before then. These new technologies show promise but let's let them mature them and bring them to a pinnacle like we have with the G2 and WOLED.

And that's how we got here:

Mine is also "only" 3 years old :) If we had proper image processing then I wouldn't upgrade it either, but we don't, and I got fed up with it :) , also I came across with a deal that I couldn't refuse.

The C8 was absolutely the best of its time. But 4 years have gone by now and the tech has matured quite a bit since then. I'm EXTREMELY happy to be putting the C8 in my bedroom as it's still a stunning picture and exceptional features. But with the improvements the G2 brings to the table, it's going to be a big upgrade.

About image processing:
- S95B: has postarization, motion interpolation is crap, we don't know anything about PC mode (because no one really test it :) )
- A95K: will be dimmer?, DoVi will be fixed finally after 4-5 years??? :), will they fix 23p motion (from PC)?, and who knows what else...

If you are only looking for 55"/65", I'm pretty sure that LG has to drop prices massively this year, due to QD-OLED, the only question is when, but not sure about above and below since there's no contest this year.
So, I'd say, there are lot of unknowns for now, so LG is still a safe bet this/next year, if image processing is flawless and we won't have uniformity issues (banding, tinting, grid, rest of the sh*t :) ).

About "if image processing is flawless" : what I can promise you guys is that you will know everything about this in the upcoming months! :) So, you can decide whether upgrading worths it to you or not ...

Reports are so far that it's not flawless. At least not everyone is getting flawless panels. Some see banding. Some see tinting. IMO it's too early to trust those reports as gospel. These panels need time to break in and go through some pixel refresh cycles. And calibration. Factory calibration on these panels is pretty damn good with some reports showing it under De 2 OOTB. Jesus! But a broken in panel fully calibrated is the only way to know for sure whether these panels are flawless or not. I suspect we'll get them pretty damn close.

P.S. I'll know sooner than later if the upgrade was worth it. My G2 will hopefully be delivered in the next couple days. I can't seem to pull up the tracking on it though so I have no idea where it is. Given that it shipped 4 hours from my house, I can't believe it'll be 9 business days. My guess would be tomorrow some time but I don't know for sure.

SamuriHL

19th April 2022, 04:27

Monday is the freaking current delivery date. It was Thursday but changed. Wtf

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

19th April 2022, 12:09

I'm thinking of upgrading my C8 to the G2 as well. Can't wait for your reviews.
Thanks, guys!
+1

Calman has failed to impress me for quite some time now. It was useful to learn the ins and outs of calibration but autocal is a myth.
It's not that myth, the same can be done manually, even better, that's what we did.

Unsure about HDR but that one's irrelevant. You can validate that with a pgenerator. The iTPG can't ever be used for validation because of where it falls in the video chain. I have hope that someday we'll be able to do DV with another external device.
I think that was changed with CX/C1 (except for DoVi), not sure I will ever find that video though :)

It's only the smaller panels that he recommends an AWP.
It's wierd, doesn't make much sense.

I'm not convinced yet. Vincent tweeted out that Samsung has managed to fool many so-called professional calibrators with this new panel. I don't know what that means but I suspect Samsung is up to some tricks.
He meant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8czrfBaoJI) the undefeatable dynamic tonemapping using real content. THat's what I meant that something fishy is going on.
But honestly, what is reference anyway? Is there anything like that? They change the mastering monitors as well every 5 years using different display tech ... :)

Wait, are they still doing LLDV????? Seriously?!
I don't know what was the exact issue, it needs to be asked from a Sony owner.

Reports are so far that it's not flawless. At least not everyone is getting flawless panels. ...
I only meant image processing, not panels, that's a completely separate issue :)

SamuriHL

19th April 2022, 14:08

It's not that myth, the same can be done manually, even better, that's what we did.

That's the point. Manually doing the calibration and understanding the steps gives you far better results than clicking some autocal button and hoping the software can do it all for you without any thought. The idea that you can just push a button and have a perfectly calibrated display is the myth.

I think that was changed with CX/C1 (except for DoVi), not sure I will ever find that video though :)

It hardly matters. With the latest pgen that's not really a problem for us. It'll do SDR and HDR without issue. DV is the problem. Maybe someday someone will figure out how to do that, as well.

It's wierd, doesn't make much sense.

I don't pretend to understand the reasoning, only that's what he has advised in the past. I don't deviate from D65 anyway. Well, I may now that I have a spectro on the C8.

He meant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8czrfBaoJI) the undefeatable dynamic tonemapping using real content. THat's what I meant that something fishy is going on.
But honestly, what is reference anyway? Is there anything like that? They change the mastering monitors as well every 5 years using different display tech ... :)

Reference is whatever the director intended. IOW, we have no idea what the hell that is unless we watch the content matched to whatever mastering monitor they graded it on. You already know how likely that is to happen. All we can do is calibrate as close to 0 De as we can on our displays and hope for the best. This is the big reason I want tone mapping to die a specular highlighted fiery death. :D Then we don't need to interpret anything.

I don't know what was the exact issue, it needs to be asked from a Sony owner.

I may do some research on that because my dad's looking to get an OLED and he HATES LG with a passion so I have him looking at Sony's because they include DV where Samsung doesn't. But if it's f***ed up DV, that's not helpful. I know they were using LLDV in the past but I thought they stopped that. FFS, Sony...

I only meant image processing, not panels, that's a completely separate issue :)

Fair enough. Yes, image processing better be spot on at this point. They've had enough time to fix all the issues. I can't believe they pushed my TV delivery to next week. Grrrrrr!

SamuriHL

19th April 2022, 14:12

BTW, I wish I had known this before getting the G2, but, Panny is supposedly making a return to the US market for OLED.

https://na.panasonic.com/explore/press-release/panasonic-introduces-lz2000-oled-tv-2022

That could be interesting. I'm sure that's WOLED but still, nice to see more options. I love my Panny plasma and was pissed when they pulled out of the US market when they went to OLED.

quietvoid

19th April 2022, 14:18

SamuriHL

19th April 2022, 14:22

I know but I only saw it yesterday when I was pulling up a "why panny pulled out of the US" article for another forum. When that came up in my search I was like wait, WHAT? LOL Coming this summer, theoretically. It'll be interesting to see how it stacks up.

chros

20th April 2022, 17:48

It hardly matters. With the latest pgen that's not really a problem for us. It'll do SDR and HDR without issue. DV is the problem.
Oh, I see, that's fine with me since I couldn't do anything with DoVi so far :)

Reference is whatever the director intended. IOW, we have no idea what the hell that is unless we watch the content matched to whatever mastering monitor they graded it on. You already know how likely that is to happen. All we can do is calibrate as close to 0 De as we can on our displays and hope for the best. This is the big reason I want tone mapping to die a specular highlighted fiery death. :D Then we don't need to interpret anything.
Agreed.

I may do some research on that because my dad's looking to get an OLED and he HATES LG with a passion so I have him looking at Sony's because they include DV where Samsung doesn't. But if it's f***ed up DV, that's not helpful. I know they were using LLDV in the past but I thought they stopped that. FFS, Sony...
This is different (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/samsung-4k-s95b-qd-oled-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3240720/post-61603486), convince him that LG is actually good, I am telling :)

I can't believe they pushed my TV delivery to next week. Grrrrrr!
:D I bet they don't have it in the country at all, same in the UK :)

BTW, I wish I had known this before getting the G2, but, Panny is supposedly making a return to the US market for OLED. That could be interesting.
Indeed. But Panny couldn't do judder free 23p in PC mode, so I doubt that is changed this year, although with HDMI 2.1 that can (!) be a non-issue with 100/119/120Hz, but again, no one tested this, and I don't want to be the first :)

Also, I would miss the automation that we can do with LG, escpecially turning off the TV from PC when playback ends, that's the biggest thing for me.

SamuriHL

20th April 2022, 18:15

Oh, I see, that's fine with me since I couldn't do anything with DoVi so far :)

Let's HOPE that's about to change! :) I plan on doing a 20pt calibration of greyscale and uploading a config for it at the very least.

This is different (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/samsung-4k-s95b-qd-oled-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3240720/post-61603486), convince him that LG is actually good, I am telling :)

Oh HELL no. I'm not getting into the middle of that BS again. I got into enough trouble yesterday for commenting on a video by a professional calibrator who's apparently never seen the brightness increase on a WOLED panel while keeping a static 10% white HDR image on screen and continuously measuring it before. He commented that it seemed to be the new processor doing something. I dared to comment my surprise at this comment and got jumped all over by some dumbass in the 2022 LG owner thread. I'm all set. I plan on staying out of that nonsense going forward.

:D I bet they don't have it in the country at all, same in the UK :)

No it shipped out of NJ on a freight box truck on Monday. It's on the truck. I just don't know how many bars they plan on stopping at before they deliver it. LOL. No it goes to another of their distribution centers up here to then be delivered. Given that it's only 4 hours away, however, the fact that it's taking that long is irritating. Still says Monday.

Indeed. But Panny couldn't do judder free 23p in PC mode, so I doubt that is changed this year, although with HDMI 2.1 that can (!) be a non-issue with 100/119/120Hz, but again, no one tested this, and I don't want to be the first :)

I know. And banding in 4:4:4 if I recall. It's just nice to see Panny back in the US again after all these years. If they produce a QD OLED panel in 5 years that blows me away, who knows. :D

Also, I would miss the automation that we can do with LG, escpecially turning off the TV from PC when playback ends, that's the biggest thing for me.

THAT is the biggest thing for me, as well. No one seems to get the 3D LUT upload capabilities of these panels. It's all well and good to go adjust the DDC manually (eww) but it's quite another to fully profile the TV, create a 3D LUT to correct it all, and upload it per picture mode. That's super important to me. (And afaik, no other TV allows that. Sony and Samsung are manual DDC corrections. Yuck. 3D LUT uploads are my favorite feature of the LG's)

chros

20th April 2022, 18:28

That guy is not a reviewer but an influencer (with the white patch) :)
And I talked about your dad to convince him to get the LG instead of Sony :)

SamuriHL

20th April 2022, 20:06

Oh there's no way in hell he'll ever go with LG. He absolutely hates them. It could be the very best screen technology ever invented and he'd still not go with it. LOL There's no changing his mind. It was hard enough to get him to consider the Sony. But the only reason to get that over a Samsung is for DV so if they screwed that up, I need to know. I'll research that this weekend.

Kuler087

24th April 2022, 16:02

rtings review for the G2 is out. The brightness is impressive, looks like a major upgrade from the C8.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/g2-oled

https://i.ibb.co/0K2yCN6/Capture.png

SamuriHL

24th April 2022, 16:20

I'm not sure I trust those numbers from them but if they are even close to reality then it's definitely going to be an awesome upgrade. If mine ever leaves PA I'll be able to find out. SIGH

SamuriHL

24th April 2022, 18:10

Well, I can see why D-Nice espouses the benefits of AWP. Holy hell. It really does make a very big difference. Coming from a plasma, I can tell you I seriously appreciate what it does for the picture. I'm using it for SDR 2.2 and HDR right now and damn. I'm impressed. Can't wait to mess around with the G2!

chros

25th April 2022, 07:18

About rtings numbers: the real scene hdr value is impossible, either they screwed up something or as someone stated, maybe the place of the measurement is so much brighter (eg different WP).

SamuriHL

25th April 2022, 09:28

Yeah those numbers are whacked. I'm not terribly worried about it. Once I get some hours on it I'll profile the display myself with colourspace and compare that to my c8. That's really the only comparison I care about. It should be delivered today as it's currently 30 minutes from my house being processed.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

25th April 2022, 14:36

Good luck then! 1 guy made comparison, and he says Dovi is screwed (https://youtu.be/A2tdIrZlhGs) on the C2. Not sure why we have to go through all of this every year...

SamuriHL

25th April 2022, 15:13

When I said "should be delivered today because it's at the distribution center close to my house" I misspoke. What I meant to say is "oh, no, that won't be delivered today. Maybe tomorrow. We'll text you." FFS

SamuriHL

25th April 2022, 15:16

As for DV, I'm getting sick of them f***ing that up, as well. Seriously, Dolby certifies these damn devices and we end up paying more for them. It's why Samsung won't ever bother supporting it as they have zero intention of paying Dolby for the "privilege". So you'd think that if a device is certified for Dolby that they'd approve of the presentation of their content that everyone in the chain has to pay for. It's absolutely abhorrent that we have to deal with this after all these years.

Kuler087

25th April 2022, 15:42

oh boy, I don't like what I'm hearing and seeing in that comparison video. :(

SamuriHL

25th April 2022, 15:52

It's possible LG f***ed something up and it'll need a firmware update. We just don't know enough yet as these panels are too new.

chros

25th April 2022, 17:31

Yeah, I don't like it either :)

SamuriHL

27th April 2022, 02:16

chros I have some bad news for you. My G2 is hanging on my wall. :P It's incredible. Absolutely incredible. I just watched A New Hope in HDR using PC mode and jesus. This TV has so much potential. OOTB I'm really pleased so far. We have a LOT of work to do. That's the bad news. :D Get your damn TV and let's get to it. :)

ashlar42

27th April 2022, 14:47

Also for 77 and up D-Nice says to use D65. It's only the smaller panels that he recommends an AWP.Is this for G2 or is it valid for C1 as well? I remembered it differently.

Edit: also, change your signature, you deserve it! ;-)

SamuriHL

27th April 2022, 14:57

NOT for the G2. The AWP I used was for my C8. I wanted it recalibrated before I moved it to my bedroom and it looks spectacular. The EVO panels require a different AWP and I've seen recommendations that 77" or higher should target straight D65. I'm not likely to deviate from that on my G2 any time soon. It'll be a while before I even touch the WP adjustment in the SM for a full calibration. Right now I'm focused on getting it broken in and doing some profiling of the G2 when I get a free minute. That'll likely be this weekend before I have some time. I want to see what this thing is like OOTB. Anecdotally I can say that it's absolutely stunning so far. But a lot of work to be done.

Yes, my sig change is coming up.

chros

27th April 2022, 22:13

I'm happy for you! (Still no news here about delivery, maybe next week if I'll be lucky)
So did you use PC mode for SW movie? :) niiice!
What about tinting/banding/etc so far?

SamuriHL

27th April 2022, 22:52

I did indeed use PC mode for my movie night. Looked great. I haven't noticed any kinds of issues. White is actually white with no pink tinting. Banding, possibly but I have to actually run some tests on that. Like I said, lots to do and I was mostly in "enjoy this large ass screen" mode last night. And will be for the next few days. I've been asked by others to profile the TV, as well so that's on my list for Saturday. Once that's done I'll force a pixel refresh cycle and get it broken in some more.

SamuriHL

27th April 2022, 23:19

Holy shit. I'm watching empire strikes back. I turned off PC mode for this one but I put the tv in hdr game optimizer mode and selected hgig for tone mapping. Set madvr to 900 nits. Omg. This is awesome!

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

28th April 2022, 12:42

I haven't noticed any kinds of issues. White is actually white with no pink tinting. Banding, possibly but I have to actually run some tests on that.
Nice, I hope you got a clean panel!

About empire strikes back, I saw someone already mentioned this, but I think it's graded very low nots.

SamuriHL

28th April 2022, 12:56

Yes it is. I was just playing around to see what I could do with a picture mode I mostly don't care about. I'm not wanting to change picture modes I want to profile for ootb readings. But I wanted to have a little fun with madvr. Also I turned PC mode back on half way through. I saw no artifacts. The more I play with this panel the more I really love it.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

28th April 2022, 15:30

also i turned pc mode back on half way through.
!!! :d

SamuriHL

28th April 2022, 15:38

PC mode doesn't appear to f*** things up. WAY more testing is needed but anecdotally at least PC mode looks good.

chros

30th April 2022, 10:06

Is color gamut still greyed out in PC mode and set to Wide? If so then it should set to Auto for Hdr10, eg with bscpylgtv.
Other thing popped into my mind: the tone curve params that can be uploaded should belong to a certain pic preset. If that's still true then it's a good news since we can truly setup 2 presets for madvr and pass through for Hdr10.

huhn

30th April 2022, 10:27

while the color gamut setting is greyed out you can still change it using the hidden HDMI signal override(i don't use this but this seems to works just like other TVs gamut settings but my CX is using auto in PC mode anyway).

so i'm not sure why they even bother greying it out or why they limited it to so little settings with misleading names.

SamuriHL

30th April 2022, 11:48

I'll have to check on that. I ran some profiling in non PC mode last night for sdr in filmmaker mode. This panel is a beast! Ootb it averaged 3.25 dE. There were no panel issues that I could see. Liberator72 reviewed it, as well. He pointed out that measuring these panels with an i1d3 still produces red issues but that my spectro worked really well to correct that. You will definitely want at least an edr when profiling these new Evo panels. Man he's awesome.

I profiled non PC mode hdr filmmaker mode, as well but I screwed that up. I missed changing from auto to low on black level and as a result I got raised black levels throwing the whole profile off. I'll have to wait until tonight to do that and run hdr sweeps.

I'll take a look at PC mode more today. I've only tested it in hdr mode the the most part. My streaming devices don't like it for sdr content. So this will be a case of switching it on and off as needed depending on what device I'm using.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

30th April 2022, 16:13

Hm, how do they not like it?
How many patches do you use for Hdr10? Can you post the 3d graphs for it on avs? Thanks
Yes, your spectral correction will be definitely needed :), :
do you know whether calibration mode or standard mode of the TV should be used for that?

SamuriHL

30th April 2022, 16:40

The colors are completely oversaturated in PC mode from my streaming devices (ATV and SHIELD Pro). Remember I've not calibrated anything so it's entirely possible we'll get there once we get around to calibrating.

I posted some stuff in my calibration thread. The grey+primary is I think 81 patches for HDR. I did that NOT in calibration mode but with a target nit set to 850 (Leon's suggestion) to measure the panel's native response in HDR mode. I wouldn't read too much into my luminance reading at 100% white because it was simply part of the grey+primary reading and not measured in a standard way (i.e. 5 second patch, etc). But I did use 5 second stabilization (black patch between patches) to try to stabilize the panel as much as I could.

I'm really, REALLY loving this panel a lot. OOTB it's accurate as hell. I mean D65 is almost spot on with this thing. RGB separation is not something I'll have to correct for. Hell even in HDR RGB separation is so damn close I don't know if a 2pt calibration would really make that much of a difference. EOTF tracking in SDR can be improved with calibration, of course but damn if it ain't seriously close. REALLY impressed with this panel!

chros

30th April 2022, 16:59

Nice, thanks!
Maybe color gamut was wide in PC mode?
That Hdr10 method is fine, there's no standard, I was just curious. I think 850 nits gamut is small for the G2 :)
Oh, and can you test the black level videos in the night if you will have time? (also in PC mode) Because no one else will, it seems :( :D

SamuriHL

30th April 2022, 17:18

Could be. I have a lot of stuff to figure out with this panel. But man this panel is an absolute beast OOTB. Leon suggests at this point letting it break in and do some refresh cycles. Black is crushed in HDR a bit but that should hopefully be correctable through calibration.

I'll see what I can do about black levels but they are without a doubt crushed.

SamuriHL

30th April 2022, 17:32

Filmmaker mode is set to Wide by default which isn't even an option that's in the Color Gamut menu. WTF? LOL I've set it to auto detect which will likely fix my streaming box issue in PC mode. Jesus, LG. LOL

chros

30th April 2022, 18:54

Nice, that's what I thought, it's the same with Hdr10 as well here by default.
Please write down which is the lowest bar you can see with those patterns now in all those modes, thanks.

SamuriHL

30th April 2022, 19:29

I'll see if I can get to that tonight for the black levels but it may be later this week. I want to actually watch some movies on this thing while I have the weekend. :) Also I updated my post on AVS with a new 1000pt verification set to CG Auto. It looks way better and it's 1.5 dE now. Holy hell. Like seriously, OOTB, holy hell!

chros

30th April 2022, 20:53

Black tests can be done with docs in 30 minutes, but you need night time for that, no pressure though :)

SamuriHL

30th April 2022, 21:45

Night time is when I enjoy watching HDR/DV movies. So, at some point yes. :)

SamuriHL

3rd May 2022, 02:46

D-Nice just made a comment on AVS that has my attention. He said there are no issues with using a 1D LUT on LG. Now that goes against everything I've been told and have seen myself. I've asked him for clarification. I don't know if he'll respond to me but this has my curiosity because a 1D LUT for HDR that DOESN'T cause issues like raised blacks, banding, or posturization would be amazing. We could have SO much fun with that.

quietvoid

3rd May 2022, 16:56

Well you can always give it a try :)

SamuriHL

3rd May 2022, 17:31

UGHHHH you do know what it means if it doesn't work, right? I don't enjoy factory resets. Besides mine's not broken in nearly enough to be playing with that stuff yet.

quietvoid

3rd May 2022, 17:55

I thought new models reset LUTs on preset reset now?
At least that's what I've read/been told by Ted IIRC?

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/page-194#post-61524158

2018 models really were unlucky.

SamuriHL

3rd May 2022, 18:53

Not for 1D LUT. That's only for 3D LUT. Once you touch the 1D LUT a whole bunch of crap happens that's not idea. One of which is firmware fixes won't be applied if they change anything that could impact the LUT without a factory reset because LG believes that if you paid for calibration and their firmware updates mess it up they could be on the hook for fixing it. So I've avoided 1D LUTs like the plague but if they can really work in HDR then a 22pt grayscale calibration becomes plausible. Theoretically.

chros

3rd May 2022, 19:42

It can be easily tested, just upload a bad one, do a preset reset and see what happens. :) It should clear the 1dlut as well.
Thanks for asking Dnice about it, it's good news, I told you it works for me on B8 :) (although I used aiopylgtv not the rest).
Vincent tested SDR for near black, but not Hdr10 nor Dovi.

On a different note: Samsung S95b turned out to be a complete mess. :)
- they copied all the bad algos that LG implemented in the last 5 years (tcp, gsr, etc), they can't be turned off
- Auto option for gamut applies random colors spaces :) I mean come on... And as it turned out this bug is present in other Samsung LCD models as well, and I have never heard of it until now, and those models were always recommended by reviewers/influences... What a joke...

SamuriHL

3rd May 2022, 20:03

I'll get around to it eventually. This is not a week I have time for much playing around unfortunately. Just too much going on until the weekend.

D-Nice did not respond to me, unfortunately. Hopefully he will.

I still need to do black level testing, I know but as mentioned this week is just not happening. Maybe Saturday night I can squeeze in some time for that.

I don't understand the hype around the S95B. The first reviews I saw, before Vincent blew the doors off the house with the calibration detecting algorithm BS, all looked way oversaturated to me. Yet the reviewers were all sitting there going "now THIS is how those colors are supposed to look, no other panel can come close, blah blah woof woof". WTF? Have they never seen an oversaturated image before? I will give them a pass only because Samsung went out of their way to trick them into thinking it was flawless accuracy based on the stupid window size detection crap they're pulling. The thing is, there was no need for any of this. QD OLED panels are obviously an improvement over WOLED. This just makes them look pathetic when in reality they have a really good panel that can definitely compete. Sony will show that with the a95k.

chros

3rd May 2022, 20:21

Yes, let's see Sony or LG in the next year(s)? :)

SamuriHL

3rd May 2022, 20:34

I think this competition is good. It'll shake LG out of their "let's just do a minor upgrade year over year" apathy. Now maybe they'll push the blue OLEDs sooner and shock everyone. This can only be good for consumers. I will be keeping the G2 for quite a while given the expense of it but it'll eventually end up on my bedroom wall to replace the C8 (LMAO) when I do ultimately get something newer. So far, though I'm REALLY loving the G2. It is remarkable for movie viewing. I can't wait to get it broken in a bit so I can get it calibrated and try out some different things. And yes, I'm using PC mode and have so far not noticed any glaring issues. That streaming device problem was indeed caused by the color gamut being set to native by default. (DAFUQ you doing, LG) Once I fixed that everything looks awesome.

chros

4th May 2022, 11:36

I'm happy you say these :)

SamuriHL

4th May 2022, 14:41

Me too. Believe me that was a concern. But PC mode has been vastly improved since our 18 series.

ashlar42

7th May 2022, 16:57

The EVO panels require a different AWP and I've seen recommendations that 77" or higher should target straight D65.Do you remember if those recommendations were from D-Nice? I am using the AWP he suggested for the C1 with Evo panels (such as my 77") and, admittedly just from memory, it looks closer to how I remember the Kuro plasma I used to have.

Edit: I ask because I refer to this post of his: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-60981622 where he is answering a 77C1 owner.

SamuriHL

7th May 2022, 17:35

Yea, D-Nice at one point said the 77 and up should use D65. I don't have a link to the post but I encountered it when searching for AWP. I have no intention of targeting anything but D65 on my G2 77.

SamuriHL

8th May 2022, 19:15

The G2 77" is an absolute beast of a display.

Calibrated Dolby Vision cinema mode last night. We can't really validate that but I flattened out the grayscale so it tracks EOTF really well. I got a peak luminance of 921 nits. Watched John Wick 3 on my UB820. DAMN! Absolutely beautiful.

Then overnight I calibrated ISF Dark mode to bt.1886 100 nits. I kinda messed that up a little bit but overall I got a dE 0.4.

Tonight I'll do an HDR calibration. We'll see how that goes. Maybe I'll sacrifice a picture mode and try a 1D LUT. We'll see.

These are results from the OOTB white point balance. Once the panel is broken in a bit more, I'll handle the white point balance and redo DV and ISF calibrations.

SamuriHL

9th May 2022, 04:31

chros

9th May 2022, 11:33

Maybe I'll sacrifice a picture mode and try a 1D LUT.
I replied to this as well on avs.

Then overnight I calibrated ISF Dark mode to bt.1886 100 nits.
But whyyyy ... 100 ???? :)

SamuriHL

9th May 2022, 12:56

Because for sdr movie viewing at night that is the most appropriate. My day mode will be higher.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

ashlar42

9th May 2022, 16:35

I did my hdr calibration. Just a 2pt grayscale adjustment plus a custom tone curve. I measured 884 peak nits which is just about right for the g2. So I set that as my peak luminance and then set all the tone curves to roll off at 100% which disables tone mapping. Next I set madvr to 884 nits. This hdr mode, cinema, will only be used for madvr but it now pretty much behaves like hgig without the crappy game mode hdr issues. Madvr has complete control over the tone map. I ran a sweep at 1000 nits to verify the rolloff point and indeed 884 nits is all she wrote.

After calibration and setting up the tone curve and madvr, I watched Shang chi. Holy hell that was an amazing experience. I absolutely love this panel.
Some questions on this, if you'd be so kind.

1) How do you set up the tone curves, I suspect you use Device Control in conjunction with Colur Space. So what are the values to input in the three settings available (if they are the same as the 1 Series)?

2) Would you mind sharing your madVR HDR settings? There are so many of them and you seem a reasonable and knowledgeable guy, so I would take yours as a good starting point.

3) The tone curves are per picture mode or TV wide? Because I could use them as you describe for HTPC use but my family uses often the Netflix and Prime Video apps and I wouldn't want to mess up HDR for them.

SamuriHL

9th May 2022, 16:55

My usual disclaimer applies here. I'm by no means an expert on any of this stuff. So please understand I'm not claiming to be.

1) Yes, Device Control. After doing the grayscale adjustment, you run a 22pt grayscale measurement and you get the peak luminance from that. In my case it measured 884 nits. In device control, I enable calibration and pick the HDR mode I want to change. This is per picture mode, to answer 3). But the picture mode is applied to all HDMI and internal connections that use it. In this case I used Cinema mode. I set the peak to 884 nits and then set each of the mastering peak levels to 100 for the roll-off. This completely disables tone mapping and clips anything higher than the peak luminance you entered.

2) My settings are a mess right now. I wouldn't call them great even for a base. It's one of those things I've had on my plate to sit and work on since I rebuilt my HTPC back in February but haven't had the time yet. I'd definitely not consider them "great" but I can post a screen shot later if you'd like. Just know that they aren't likely to be what we ultimately want. Still, I watched Shang Chi with them last night and that looked damn good to me.

3) Right that's why I chose Cinema preset so that I can leave Filmmaker mode for anything that requires tone mapping on the display. You would just change the preset before watching something with madvr and keep it defaulted to, e.g. Filmmaker for everything else.

SamuriHL

10th May 2022, 15:38

Forgot to post this last night. As I said previously, this is maybe a starting point. Maybe. This image will self-destruct in 6 months since it'll be completely outdated at that point anyway:

https://i.ibb.co/Bcmgfkc/Madvr-159-2022-05-09.png (https://ibb.co/CmqnwLm)

SamuriHL

10th May 2022, 16:09

Do you remember if those recommendations were from D-Nice? I am using the AWP he suggested for the C1 with Evo panels (such as my 77") and, admittedly just from memory, it looks closer to how I remember the Kuro plasma I used to have.

Edit: I ask because I refer to this post of his: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-60981622 where he is answering a 77C1 owner.

Yea, D-Nice at one point said the 77 and up should use D65. I don't have a link to the post but I encountered it when searching for AWP. I have no intention of targeting anything but D65 on my G2 77.

As you likely saw from D-Nice's response on AVS, he is recommending AWP for all sizes of C1. That's likely going to be the same for the 2022 series, as well would be my guess. And this is why I have my standard disclaimer that I'm NOT the expert here. :)

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-61661885

lanzorg

11th May 2022, 01:21

I may have missed something but are you implying that madvr would render better with an HDR10 file than a Dolby Vision file rendered by a compatible OLED TV?

SamuriHL

11th May 2022, 02:21

It's not that simple. It depends on a lot of variables. However, madvr dynamic tone mapping absolutely rivals DV in a lot of instances.

lanzorg

11th May 2022, 02:54

MadVR has much better image upscaling and refinements.
That's really what I miss the most, now I have to use TV built-in color tuner for "proper" colors and it's a real pain.

But if on top of that I can have a dolby vision like rendering, it's just completely crazy.
Is the chros73's HDR related configuration still relevant with latest madVR?
What do you advise me to modify for a QLED TV (Hisense U7QF)?

SamuriHL

11th May 2022, 04:44

I've no experience with that kind of display so I couldn't tell you. But yes the hdr quality of madvr is that good. My advice is to get it set up and just try it.

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ashlar42

11th May 2022, 12:06

As you likely saw from D-Nice's response on AVS, he is recommending AWP for all sizes of C1. That's likely going to be the same for the 2022 series, as well would be my guess. And this is why I have my standard disclaimer that I'm NOT the expert here. :)

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-61661885
Don't worry SamuriHL, we're all here to learn (I more than most). It's good to have a final clarification from him and I enormously appreciate the knowledge you strive to share here and elsewhere.

SamuriHL

11th May 2022, 12:15

I still won't be targeting an awp on the g2. He made it clear that 10nm spectros like my i1pro3 aren't necessarily sufficient to properly target an awp. I'm ok with leaving it as d65.

The picture quality I'm getting out of my g2 is amazing. I spent the last couple days playing with hdr calibration. The g2 tracks eotf so closely that a standard 2pt adjustment is really all that's needed. A 22pt adjustment may be possible but I'm having some problems in that area on mine. It's only showing 11 points in the 22pt adjustment menu for hdr. No idea why.

The other good news for chros73 is that 1d lut appears to work. I'm not seeing raised blacks. Could be that they are there and I'm just not able to see them in my environment but it doesn't seem to be an issue for me. So while that's good the benefit of the 1d lut vs a simple 2pt adjustment wasn't really there. Iow there was no benefit to the 1d lut. When I factory reset in a couple weeks to do a real calibration with sm wp I won't be using the 1d lut method to calibrate.

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ashlar42

12th May 2022, 00:22

3) Right that's why I chose Cinema preset so that I can leave Filmmaker mode for anything that requires tone mapping on the display. You would just change the preset before watching something with madvr and keep it defaulted to, e.g. Filmmaker for everything else.

I wanted to try this. I connect using the LG 2021 PQ Curve template, I request the pin, I enable calibration. Set all three values at 100, pressing the little pen button on the right for each one. Then I press Tonemap Upload. I disable calibration.

Problem is that if I re-enable calibration and load a different picture mode, it's with 100-100-100 too. As if I could upload a single tonemap for all three available HDR picture modes (Cinema, Filmmaker, Game).

Am I doing something wrong/missing something?

SamuriHL

12th May 2022, 00:24

No idea but that's not what's happening for me. I've only been able to do this for a few days now so I wouldn't be the person to ask on what's going on with that. They are for individual picture modes, though, so something's wrong.

ashlar42

12th May 2022, 00:50

SamuriHL

12th May 2022, 02:59

I saw. Hopefully you get it cleared up.

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quietvoid

13th May 2022, 00:14

There seems to be a 700 CAD markup on the G2 here in Canada. Pretty unfortunate.
I'll likely be picking up a C2 when they show up at my local Costco.

Hopefully by then we'll know if the old bugs are still present.

I'm also tempted by the Sony A80K but it seems to have some issues with Dolby Vision, and I probably can't do as much wrt calibration.

SamuriHL

13th May 2022, 00:42

My dad's going to end up with an a80k at some point. Looks like a decent display. Personally, I love the G2.

Kuler087

13th May 2022, 00:44

Same here, I'm going to get the 77 C2 once it's available in local stores. I don't want to order it online.
Wanted the 77 G2 but it is way too expensive for me :(

According to HiFi4Vision (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/post-61668582) it sounds like the black crush in DV is still a problem.

chros

13th May 2022, 10:50

Wanted the 77 G2 but it is way too expensive for me :(
I'll likely be picking up a C2 when they show up at my local Costco.
Hopefully by then we'll know if the old bugs are still present.
I feel you, I wouldn't have bought it either, try to look for a deal eg half price :) (I still haven't got mine, maybe 1 month later).

According to HiFi4Vision (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/post-61668582) it sounds like the black crush in DV is still a problem.
He only checked SDR so far, we wait for SamuriHL to check these as well :D

ashlar42

13th May 2022, 12:29

I saw. Hopefully you get it cleared up.

Ok, so it appears that DeviceControl is monodirectional as far as data transfers for tonemap is concerned. You can send data but you cannot retrieve it. Hence it displays always the last dataset you input, for all picture modes.

I wish the guides mentioned this, as I personally found it quite disconcerting. But they're so awesome that... horse gift mouth, and all that stuff.

chros

13th May 2022, 17:43

Yes, it's not just DC, but Calman as well, no way to get calibration data out of LG.

SamuriHL

13th May 2022, 18:11

Yea makes sense. Not something we 2018 and early users ever knew about since uploading a tone curve was dark sorcery unavailable to us neophytes. LMAO :D And since I only touched one HDR mode I never really noticed on the G2. The more I play with this panel the more I love it. I can't believe jk82 got one....um....for now. :D That's awesome! The 2018 crowd strikes back! :D

Kuler087

13th May 2022, 18:39

I feel you, I wouldn't have bought it
He only checked SDR so far, we wait for SamuriHL to check these as well :D
I see...
I dont care about SDR (I have a PJ) so it's fine for me as long as DV black levels are improved compared to my C8. It seems to be the case for the C2 according to the link (ttps://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-c2-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2406245/page-21#post-30365086) you shared on avsforum. Quite encouraging results.

SamuriHL

13th May 2022, 18:44

I'll get to it this weekend. Last weekend was about calibration (and having a movie night with a friend). I'll have more time this weekend to look at it. I can say in HDR, I don't see any black issues with a 1D LUT loaded (or without one, either for that matter) so that's good. SDR looks good. It's DV that I'm most curious about.

chros

13th May 2022, 21:26

I dont care about SDR (I have a PJ) so it's fine for me as long as DV black levels are improved compared to my C8. It seems to be the case for the C2 according to the link (ttps://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-c2-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2406245/page-21#post-30365086) you shared on avsforum. Quite encouraging results.
Here's jk82's result (https://www.avsforum.com/goto/post?id=61671403), no DoVi report yet, HDR10 also seems to be fine.

I'll get to it this weekend. ... I can say in HDR, I don't see any black issues with a 1D LUT loaded (or without one, either for that matter) so that's good.
Thanks, the more results the better! Good point about the custom 1d/3dluts, those are also need to be checked along with PC mode presets, and elevated black :) Sorry, maybe it will last 1 hour :)

I can't believe jk82 got one....um....for now. :D That's awesome! The 2018 crowd strikes back! :D
:D Exactly what I said over there! :D

SamuriHL

13th May 2022, 21:37

Thanks, the more results the better! Good point about the custom 1d/3dluts, those are also need to be checked along with PC mode presets, and elevated black :) Sorry, maybe it will last 1 hour :)

I'll get back to PC mode at some point. I'm not using it at the moment not because there was any issue with it, simply trying to simplify things for now. So we'll set PC mode aside for now. Tonight I'll try to check on DV. Anecdotally after I calibrated it (manual 22pt grayscale, config upload) it looks spectacular to me. No 1D LUT for that, only for HDR so far. However, as I mentioned before, there was zero benefit to my calibration from doing a 1D LUT in HDR mode. 2pt manual is enough to track EOTF almost exact. A 22pt manual grayscale will likely be even better so I'll be getting to that at some point after I factory reset it.

:D Exactly what I said over there! :D

It's nice to see. The C8 is a fantastic little rig, but, this G2 buries it so far. LG has come a long way in 4 years. Even before it's fully broken in, it's really impressing me a lot. So, having the gang back together, as you put it (LOL), is a very good thing.

quietvoid

14th May 2022, 03:14

So I just did a manual Dolby Vision calibration using some custom files.
And uploaded a manually calculated config file (no iTPG!)

Apparently the config locks the white balance menu on the C8.

Now my post-cal grayscale seems a bit off. I wonder if it's because I'm no longer able to hit the config Tmax?
See result:
https://i.postimg.cc/zHF4knpy/Untitled.png (https://postimg.cc/zHF4knpy)

My config has Tmax = 695.4273, since I measured that early on.
Do I just reupload the config with a lower Tmax?

I'll probably try and edit my findings.

edit: So it doesn't seem to have made a significant difference. I guess there's just no point trying to verify post-cal.
Still wonder if I should leave it at 695 or 675 nits :D

For most tests I did I can't really tell a difference.
For some reason however, some Spears & Munsil shots look really bad in any other mode than Cinema (for which I uploaded the config).
No idea if it regressed or something? I never use the other modes.

It only happens in the internal player, not my external HDMI one. Shrug.

SamuriHL

14th May 2022, 04:12

So I did the black level test for dv. I used kodi nerds on the shield. I only tested on my calibrated cinema mode for g2 (default wp) and my non calibrated (sm wp d65) cinema mode on the c8. Unfortunately the g2 appears to have raised black in dv for my calibrated mode. Or my c8 is crushed. I'd believe either. I can't see 63 or 64 at all on the c8. On the g2 I can see 63 and just barely 64. And I do mean barely but it's visible. My understanding is 64 ain't supposed to be seen given that's black 0%. So that isn't awesome. I'll have to test again when I factory reset. They don't give us a lot of modes to play with in dv unfortunately.

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SamuriHL

14th May 2022, 04:13

The other modes suck, quietvoid. Only cinema is accurate at all.

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quietvoid

14th May 2022, 04:39

So I did the black level test for dv. I used kodi nerds on the shield. I only tested on my calibrated cinema mode for g2 (default wp) and my non calibrated (sm wp d65) cinema mode on the c8. Unfortunately the g2 appears to have raised black in dv for my calibrated mode.

Is the black floor raised only in your calibrated mode?
AFAIK any HDMI input is raised floor and crushed black on the C8.

Also if you're seeing 64 at all, it should be blended with the background if the whole black floor is raised.

SamuriHL

14th May 2022, 04:42

I didn't test any other mode. Just the calibrated one. It was blended but raised. I'll try again tomorrow night with the internal player on both the c8 and g2 and see what that looks like. It's possible the shield is doing something screwy.

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chros

14th May 2022, 11:47

So I just did a manual Dolby Vision calibration using some custom files.
So it doesn't seem to have made a significant difference. I guess there's just no point trying to verify post-cal.
Still wonder if I should leave it at 695 or 675 nits :D

For most tests I did I can't really tell a difference.
For some reason however, some Spears & Munsil shots look really bad in any other mode than Cinema (for which I uploaded the config).
No idea if it regressed or something? I never use the other modes.
I couldn't upload DoVi config, I tried once via USB but the TV didn't recognised it.
This is the factory results (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/page-179#post-58739264) of all the DoVi presets on my B8 (not in calibration mode), after 20 patches (using black frame insertion in every 2nd frame), it's around 730 nits (same as the peak in non-PC mode HDR10 Cinema preset).
And yes, the problem with DoVi is that we don't have any other preset to compare the image to.

I didn't test any other mode. Just the calibrated one. It was blended but raised.
If you think it's raised with DoVi then try one of these to make it clear (it should result in true black):
- lower brightness from 50/100
- lower contrast from 100
- lower all the RGB values equally of the Low 2pt white balance setting (if it's still available after calibration)

Kuler087

14th May 2022, 14:20

Thanks for the test @SamuriHL but I wouldn't use the Nvidia shield to test anything related to DV. Do you have a bluray player or a firestick TV ?

SamuriHL

15th May 2022, 04:34

I have lots of different devices. Didn't really matter which I used. I interpreted the results wrong. That pattern, chros73, is a bit weird. I understand it now after looking at it more. I totally misread what it was showing last night.

As for device, shield is fine but I used the internal app off a USB stick tonight so no one could complain about my test this time.

Now that I know how to read the stupid thing the g2 is spot on for black in my calibrated dv mode. My c8, however, is severely crushed and nothing I did solved it. We're talking massively crushed where I could not see anything below 72. Increasing the oled didn't solve it. Increasing the brightness only made everything washed out but still couldn't see the flashing bars.

So yeah, awesome on the g2 as it was spot on but wtf with my c8. I may have to get creative with that damn thing. I can't really calibrate dv on that thing so this really sucks. I'm not investing in a dv capable external tpg. There is one possible option but it massively sucks. I may have to play with calman to get the damn thing fixed. The whole point of moving the c8 in the bedroom was for dv streaming so this isn't awesome right now. I realize the test was meant for the g2 but it's shown me just how f***ed my c8 is lol

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chros

15th May 2022, 11:48

Shiled is only fine with profile 5 DoVi, not with profile 7/8.1 (I replied to the rest on avs).

About the C8: yes, 72 is on our B8/C8 sets as well.
But the biggest issue is not this: but the elevated blacks on it!!! :D (workaround on avs, that didn't work on queitvoid's C8, but that will crush black more, it's 80 on my B8 with setting them to -1).
And you can't calibrate the black crush out, not even with a 1dlut! I tried, probably that's the fault of DoVi engine. The massive black glowing with 4.x fw could been reduced with 1dlut though, but it's better now with ootb 5.x, so I didn't touch it.

And the other big issue is the HDR10 cyan/magenta bt2020 3dlut processing issue :D (that you still forget :) )
Only SDR is fine :)

What do you think why I want to replace my TV? :D If only the B8 didn't have these issues, I'd never replace it until it dies :)

quietvoid

15th May 2022, 13:21

I can't really calibrate dv on that thing so this really sucks. I'm not investing in a dv capable external tpg. There is one possible option but it massively sucks.

What option is that?

I've done it manually and it's pretty straight forward, you just need the files on a USB or network storage (I do DLNA).

Warm up TV, adjust 2 point white balance with greyscale patterns.
Take readings of black, white, RGB primaries (DCI-P3), white again for peak.

I used these patterns: https://mega.nz/file/1BNnhToZ#mI2ri5tpuFdYlY5luzgFMF0KgcPr11eRJ1b6HKOgkkg
They worked for me in the LG internal player on the C8.
In the 7z there are black/white/red/green/blue DCI-P3 in BT.2020 1000 nits patterns.
And greyscale from 0% to 100%.

Calman lets you hover over the CIE chart points to get xy values, so ColourSpace probably has something similar.
HCFR also shows the values.

Then you can just feed those to aiopylgtv using "create_dolby_vision_config".
I used my own script which gives a similar result: https://github.com/quietvoid/lgtv_dovi_config_gen

Copy config to a file and fix up Tmin/Tmax.

Then you just need a way to upload it to the TV, supposedly USB works but I didn't try.
Not sure if ColourSpace lets you do it manually either.

SamuriHL

15th May 2022, 15:11

I was talking about calman and my HD fury. That let's you calibrate DV on a c8 but I'm not letting it ddc reset anything. I also have no real interest in reinstalling calman anyway.

You method is interesting, though. Yes I could do that with colourspace easy enough. Fascinating. Might have to play with that. Thanks.

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SamuriHL

15th May 2022, 15:19

I don't use a matrix lut for hdr. White point sm and 2pt grayscale only for me on the c8. 3d lut on these lg's for hdr doesn't work right.

On the g2 I currently have a 1d lut loaded but that's going away once I factory reset after 300 hours which I should hit soon. That'll also be a grayscale adjustment and wp sm adjustment. It tracks so close ootb anyway.

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quietvoid

15th May 2022, 15:32

It's still unclear to me if the Dolby Vision config primaries should be measured after a DDC reset, so I'll probably be doing a factory reset later today to test it out.
Obviously the Calman AutoCal guide always does a reset, but some others don't.

SamuriHL

15th May 2022, 15:58

I'm not doing any kind of DDC reset. Period.

Kuler087

15th May 2022, 21:59

@@Chros

raised black in DoVi, workaround:

set -1 (or lower values) for all the RGB values at 2 pt White Balance Low

On my C8, workaround #1 doesnt work for me. Only contrast=99 give me pure black in DV (without crushing more details).

SDR/HDR10 is pure black.

I use these 5 min. of pure black test files in SDR/HDR10/HDR10+/DoVi (without flashing bars) here:

DoVi:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/100euaVEVUZI7rQ2gU7rWXkKBS3hdp4tM/view?usp=sharing

HDR10plus:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fe4n-mKW51_rTj1t6bZ2X3uMtkJSmDyE/view?usp=sharing

SDR:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-o5KQAZrGZQ6yzO3LgDR1MXJtSmLd4g5/view?usp=sharing

SamuriHL

15th May 2022, 23:36

I've managed to make the C8 better. Not perfect, and I don't think there's any way to really make it great anyway, but, better. So that's good.

quietvoid

15th May 2022, 23:54

Better for what? :)

I just recalibrated all my modes.
20 pt SDR + 3D LUT, 2 point HDR10 + 3D LUT (with VCGT calibration), 2 point Dolby Vision + config.

Attempted a 2 point only HDR10 calibration but it's not possible to fix my bad EOTF tracking.
So I just reused my old calibrated 3D LUT along with some 2 point fixes.

I also tested Dolby Vision DCI-P3 measurements in the panel native WP (DDC reset), and they're identical. So that's good.
And compared Dolby Vision Cinema vs Home in factory, Home is indeed messed up by default in the internal player.

SamuriHL

16th May 2022, 00:22

Black levels, obviously.

SamuriHL

16th May 2022, 00:23

And Dolby Home Cinema is not to be used if you care about accuracy. It's not the internal player, it's that mode. It's raised in the mid-tones intentionally above EOTF.

quietvoid

16th May 2022, 00:40

Yea I know, but there's something weird with yellows as well.
For example that famous eagle shot in the Spears & Munsil disc, the beak only looks normal in Cinema, and super dim and greenish in other modes.

SamuriHL

16th May 2022, 02:10

Yea I don't use anything but Cinema mode on the C8.

chros

16th May 2022, 14:49

On my C8, workaround #1 doesnt work for me. Only contrast=99 give me pure black in DV (without crushing more details).
Try lowering the values more (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/page-192#post-61404939) -2/-3/-4/etc, chadwick said it worked for him in his C8, quietvoid said it didn't on his, not sure about SamuriHL.
Contrast/brightness adjustment is not recommended (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1932220#post1932220).

@quietvoid, thanks for the calibration patches!

SamuriHL

16th May 2022, 16:06

I did a manual 20pt calibration (more or less. less than more on this one given that it was TRULY manual as in load a patch in the internal player, measure, etc) and then uploaded a config file so I didn't do anything like that work around for Cinema mode. I did, however, raise the t-min black from 0.0001 in the config to 0.0005 which seemed to help.

quietvoid

28th May 2022, 14:26

Costco has a 20% off deal here so I just ordered a C2 online.

SamuriHL

28th May 2022, 16:32

Very kuel! That means the gang's all here. :D I'll be hopefully factory resetting and fully calibrating later.

isamu

29th May 2022, 00:29

Hi guys good to be here :)

I'll be taking delivery of an 77" LG C1 in the next couple of weeks. I've used MadVR in the past, albeit a very old version coupled with MPC-HC. But I've been out of the loop for a long time and it's been years since I've kept up with these things. What software player are you guys using with MadVR? Which is the best player to use, coupled with MadVR for 4K UHD content?

SamuriHL

29th May 2022, 03:50

We all use different things. I use jriver mc.

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isamu

29th May 2022, 14:46

We all use different things. I use jriver mc.

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Thanks. What about Pot Player? Is it compatible with MadVR?

JaylumX

29th May 2022, 15:41

Thanks. What about Pot Player? Is it compatible with MadVR?

MadVR is compatible with Pot player.

QBhd

30th May 2022, 11:14

I use an older version of Pot Player and have stopped updating it. version: 200204(1.7.21162)

I'm not saying this is the best version, but it's just the point I realized that I was updating regularly for absolutely no reason :)

QB

Kuler087

30th May 2022, 20:09

Costco has a 20% off deal here so I just ordered a C2 online.

damn, that's a great deal.
Too bad they don't have the 77" in my area.

aron7awol

1st June 2022, 22:40

SamuriHL

2nd June 2022, 02:01

Not any time soon, unfortunately. I don't have a lot of time right now.

quietvoid

2nd June 2022, 12:44

Just got the C2 delivered and setup, so I'll look at some patterns tonight.
Threw on a full white screen and it didn't seem to have any dead pixel at first glance.

SamuriHL

2nd June 2022, 14:37

Awesome. I just have zero time this week and it'd be this weekend before I could even consider looking at it. 4 day weeks are really always the longest ever.

quietvoid

2nd June 2022, 16:02

Unfortunately I won't be able to do a side-by-side comparison with the C8, but hopefully I can look at both TVs.

SamuriHL

2nd June 2022, 16:49

I can't do a side by side comparison either as they are hanging in different rooms.

quietvoid

3rd June 2022, 00:50

So there doesn't seem to be an improvement in black levels with Dolby Vision for both internal/external sources.
External = down to 73, internal = down to 66. Both are very, slightly raised black floor, it may or may not be better than the C8.

Still no Opus audio support in the internal player, but at least it doesn't play now, instead of playing garbled audio.
No change in Dolby Vision support for MKV container.

AV1 files playback properly in SDR and HDR with film grain synthesis.

I don't think I'll check the 2DQuants patterns since I can't take good enough pictures.

Finally, is there a way to disable the LG logo fading out on TV turn off?
edit: nevermind, I just googled it.

aron7awol

3rd June 2022, 14:52

I don't think I'll check the 2DQuants patterns since I can't take good enough pictures.
Even if you can't get good photos of the 64 or 96 patterns, the 128 and 192 patterns should be easy to photograph. I didn't need to use Night Sight or anything special for those.

quietvoid

3rd June 2022, 20:49

Alright I'll take a look a bit later.

quietvoid

4th June 2022, 03:48

@SamuriHL Would you check the 2DQuants near black patterns on your G2? I posted links to those 4 specific patterns in the AVS thread if that is helpful. Curious to see if LG continues to improve the near black quantization as it seems they do with each generation.

Posted mine: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/page-228#post-61724817

SamuriHL

4th June 2022, 03:55

Jesus you need to get some hours on that thing and let it do some refresh cycles.

quietvoid

4th June 2022, 04:01

I couldn't really notice anything wrong in the 4h of TV I watched so far.
But yes, I suppose it needs more time.

aron7awol

6th June 2022, 15:19

Those look pretty solid to me, and significantly better than my CX. Don't see uniformity issues on those slides either. Thanks for posting them.

@chros I sent you a PM on AVS.

aron7awol

6th June 2022, 22:33

This is by far the biggest single issue I have with my CX. This is from the beginning of Boba Fett episode 2 (3:53 in). Please ignore the tint difference, it's the gradation that's the real issue. If I lower native display bitdepth in madVR to make it dither at 5bit, 4bit, 3bit, it reduces and pretty much goes away completely, but that comes with its own obvious issues. If madVR allowed lower bitdepth dithering for only darker pixels, maybe that would be a decent solution, but it obviously doesn't and I doubt something like that would be anywhere near a priority for madshi these days. This is why I've been focusing on near-black quantization patterns.

Any suggestions?

What it looks like and what it should look like at the very bottom:

https://i.imgur.com/2i9x1m6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dGU08U6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ejaVjv3.jpg

chros

7th June 2022, 08:37

@chros I sent you a PM on AVS.
I'm still pretty busy, hopefully I can catch up during the weekend.

Btw has anyone (reviewer, influencer, etc) made a video about the glowing Black in SDR and Dovi in the last 3 weeks? Or is there any news about it?
If not, then I'll cancel my G2 order (that I still haven't got).

ashlar42

7th June 2022, 12:22

Anyone knows what claw meant here https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-61726827 ?

Why isn’t he outputting in HDR on OLED?

huhn

7th June 2022, 12:38

because these TV are not very good at it.
you also reach very similar brightness in SDR at least on my model so you can do a far better job not sending HDR with far better control.

but it is annoying to use because you have your OLED light maxed.

but my experience is very different from other user.
i have no problem with black glow which is extremely obviously in any video i ever saw and i have zero issues in PC mode with banding or abhorred super obvious other artefacts. so my experience are not typical and are not represent of the avg user.

quietvoid

7th June 2022, 13:30

Btw has anyone (reviewer, influencer, etc) made a video about the glowing Black in SDR and Dovi in the last 3 weeks? Or is there any news about it?
If not, then I'll cancel my G2 order (that I still haven't got).

There's only very light dithering visible in both SDR and Dolby Vision black, on my C2.
I can't say it's something noticeable, I have to wait a minute for my eyes to adjust in the very dark and have to be at most 15 cm away from the TV to see it.

Overall the dithering isn't as noticeable as the C8.

quietvoid

7th June 2022, 13:36

Anyone knows what claw meant here https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-61726827 ?

Why isn’t he outputting in HDR on OLED?

There aren't many good reasons to output high brightness SDR...

So we can only speculate:
- They don't watch at high brightness (don't want high brightness)
- Stuck with bad accuracy in HDR (bad PQ tracking, or undefeatable tone mapping)
- Maybe some HDR bugs in Windows?

With current LG TVs, it should always be better to set all internal tone map curves to clip at 100%, and always use madVR for tone mapping down to the panel's peak brightness while having the output be HDR.

SamuriHL

7th June 2022, 13:56

aron7awol

7th June 2022, 14:48

ashlar42

7th June 2022, 15:05

You got that right. I've been watching all the Jurassic movies to prepare for the new one Thursday and it's absolutely glorious on the G2 with 100% roll-off and madvr tone mapping to my peak luminance, which is 882 nits. It's absolutely stunning. PQ tracking on the G2 is damn near flawless after a 2pt calibration. Big upgrade over the C8 IMO.

Yeah, that's what I am doing too, based on your guidance. Roll off at 100% and 701 nits set as peak luminance.

Problem is the other plethora of settings. I read, read and read but I cant' find a good guide as to what each does. And the majority of users, for obvious reasons, are using DTM on projectors, so it's not as if there's a whole lot of oled users out there to take inspiration from.

Still found quite peculiar somebody outputting SDR for HDR material on OLED. Everything else aside there is the hassle of having to manually switch to the 100 OLED light picture mode one I imagine would use for this.

SamuriHL

7th June 2022, 15:14

It depends on the OLED. Some don't track EOTF very well. You also have to remember that these OLED panels are incredibly unstable the brighter they get. For specular highlights it's not usually a huge problem but accuracy does start to fall off a cliff. It's why when calibrating grayscale you need to set the stabilization fairly high to let the panel cool off. The G2 with its heatsink certainly helps. It's why I can push the thing nearly to 900 nits. The amount of tone mapping madvr has to do between 882 nits and 1000 nit source material is very minimal. Which is why I have most of the options in madvr turned off for the most part. With 4000 nit and higher content, maybe some of those options will be more useful but I've not spent any time on the G2 worrying about 4000+ nit content yet. Being able to let madvr do the tone mapping instead of the LG is a major benefit. Tweaking it is going to take some time.

quietvoid

7th June 2022, 18:15

Does that scene in Boba Fett look normal for you guys on your setups? If it looks the way it's supposed to on a G2 I'll order one immediately!

Tonight I'll see if PC mode makes it better or worse, and I'll also take some pics at different bitdepth dithering to show the differences there.

The other thing I'm wondering is if anyone uses a 3DLUT in madVR for HDR? If not, is it because it doesn't work right, or causes banding, or for some other reason? I was wondering if it could improve this near black gradation issue in HDR that I am experiencing.

BTW the bluish tint photo I posted is on a friend's C7.

It looks a lot worse in the photos for me. I had to raise the shadow exposure in this, otherwise it just looks black.

https://i.slow.pics/m5gVWidT.png

The near black blotches don't stand out nearly as much, and the contours aren't noticeable from my regular viewing distance.
I can barely tell after getting closer to the TV, it blends pretty well to me.

Notes: my C2 barely has 10h usage on it, so this isn't necessarily representative of how it would like after some refresh cycles.

Another (blurry) but a bit less raised: https://i.slow.pics/runa3sss.png

aron7awol

7th June 2022, 19:30

It looks a lot worse in the photos for me. I had to raise the shadow exposure in this, otherwise it just looks black.

The near black blotches don't stand out nearly as much, and the contours aren't noticeable from my regular viewing distance.
I can barely tell after getting closer to the TV, it blends pretty well to me.

Notes: my C2 barely has 10h usage on it, so this isn't necessarily representative of how it would like after some refresh cycles.
Thank you, these are very helpful.

I agree, they certainly look much worse in the photos than in real life, and if you aren't watching in the pitch dark with your eyes adjusted, it's probably not visible at all. But I love to watch in the pitch dark, and I can see the bad gradation easily from my seat, and it drives me absolutely nuts and looks awful.

Not sure if you are in the pitch dark when you are making these observations, or if that's just not how you normally watch?

FWIW, white balance has a large effect on this as well. For example, OOTB my panel has a pretty strong green push, and this looks much worse if I don't correct that. It never completely goes away though, no matter what I do. Adjusting brightness up/down just shifts the bad gradation up/down in level. It really just seems like the gradation is not smooth in the near blacks so some details blend together and other gradation changes jump too much at once, and I'm afraid based on what the near black quantization patterns look like it might just be an uncorrectable issue other than forcing low bitdepth dithering.

Green push version:

https://i.imgur.com/h9zmZzp.jpg

quietvoid

7th June 2022, 19:44

Not sure if you are in the pitch dark when you are making these observations, or if that's just not how you normally watch?

Yes I am in the dark, they aren't visible at a distance.

aron7awol

7th June 2022, 20:04

Well damn, I found this old post by @chros in 2019 saying you can't use external 3DLUT for HDR output with madVR

It will be a bit complicated than that (I wanted to find my previous post about this but I couldn't):
- basically, since both of your Philips 65OLED803 and LG OLED EG920V TV are HDR capable, you want to passthrough the HDR content to them
- meaning you can't use external 3dlut with hdr content!
- you can only use external 3dlut with SDR content :)

SamuriHL

7th June 2022, 20:27

There is a very real possibility that the content you're looking at is BADLY graded at the source. I would not discount that. D+ shows are notorious for being all over the place in terms of quality. I watch them in Dolby Vision which isn't always better.

As for 3D LUT on HDR, it's pointless anyway. As I mentioned before, these panels at high nits are quite unstable. A 3D LUT, by nature, requires stability so that when e.g. 16,16,16 is asked for the 3D LUT translates that to i.e. 16,17,16 or whatever. It HAS to be consistent across the board so that EVERY time the display is asked to display that triplet, displaying what the 3D LUT translates it to is actually accurate. Otherwise, there's no point. And with HDR on an OLED, there is no point.

(P.S. Yes, I realize the irony of choosing black as the triplet example on an OLED ;) )

aron7awol

7th June 2022, 21:54

There is a very real possibility that the content you're looking at is BADLY graded at the source. I would not discount that. D+ shows are notorious for being all over the place in terms of quality. I watch them in Dolby Vision which isn't always better.
I always chalked it up to a bad source, but over time noticed that either a whole bunch of content I was watching was really badly graded, or my TV was messing it up. And it turns out that it looks perfectly fine on other displays, and I think looking at the near black quantization patterns reveals that my TV (all of our TVs?) is in fact messing it up, and the problem isn't the source. I don't want it to be true, but it's the sad truth I have come to accept.

chros

8th June 2022, 10:57

Well damn, I found this old post by @chros in 2019 saying you can't use external 3DLUT for HDR output with madVR
That's an old post, you can use 3dlut with Hdr10 now, we talked about this with jk82 in this thread half a year ago or so,that's how I use it on the B8.
I think what you see is posterization, but removing the internal bt2020 3dlut in the TV won't correct this. Is it with Hdr10? If so, take a look at the Dovi version and see if the issue exists.
Edit: from here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1946716#post1946716) (2 pages), my final settings: I only use absolute rendering now, and I don't set any saturation in madvr.

aron7awol

8th June 2022, 15:20

I agree that it is posterization, and I guess it makes sense that there is no calibration fix if the TV is making rounding errors it will still do that regardless of how we calibrate it. I just don't understand why LG hasn't completely fixed this by now. Why are they totally overlooking this? Maybe they just don't care about the pitch black room use case, but it's so distracting, occurs in a TON of content, and these are the scenes that an OLED really should be excelling at. Does it just not bother you guys as much as it bothers me?

Yes, it is with HDR10 and I haven't tried DV, but it occurs in plenty of DV sources as well.

Thank you for the HDR 3DLUT info. I really appreciate it.

Kuler087

9th June 2022, 18:21

@quietvoid

Did you check if you're getting the 600 or 1000nits trim pass on your C2 ?

C2 77'' finally available at the local stores here, can't wait! not sure if I'll get the G2 65" or C2 77"

quietvoid

9th June 2022, 19:12

@quietvoid

Did you check if you're getting the 600 or 1000nits trim pass on your C2 ?

C2 77'' finally available at the local stores here, can't wait! not sure if I'll get the G2 65" or C2 77"

I posted the EDID on AVS: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/page-225#post-61720366

I haven't tested how it actually behaves, though.
I'm assuming with external inputs (LLDV), it would be closer to the 1000 nits trim.

Internally, it would depend on the Dolby Vision config in the TV.
I don't have an LLDV (at least I think) capable device to test this out, but I could try the internal player.

chros

12th June 2022, 11:33

AV1 files playback properly in SDR and HDR with film grain synthesis.
...
So there doesn't seem to be an improvement in black levels with Dolby Vision for both internal/external sources.
External = down to 73, internal = down to 66. Both are very, slightly raised black floor, it may or may not be better than the C8.
Thanks for checking this, so jk82 checked it from internal source, sadly no change with external one :(

So, I just cancelled my half priced G2, I hope I get the money back :) SDR will be useless for me, DoVi has the same issues, maybe "only" HDR10 is better in PC mode, so there's no point for me ...
Let me know later, if/when LGE fixes these :)

Does that scene in Boba Fett look normal for you guys on your setups?
...
Tonight I'll see if PC mode makes it better or worse.
So, how was PC mode?

I agree that it is posterization
... but it's so distracting, occurs in a TON of content, and these are the scenes that an OLED really should be excelling at. Does it just not bother you guys as much as it bothers me?

Yes, it is with HDR10 and I haven't tried DV, but it occurs in plenty of DV sources as well.
I haven't noticed anything like this on B8 in HDR10 non-PC mode, but there's nothing to compare with :)
That show is in DoVi, so if you say it's there with the DoVi version or point out other show then I can check it (again with no reference :) ).

aron7awol

12th June 2022, 17:54

So, how was PC mode?

I got frustrated and gave up on my CX. I unmounted it yesterday, and my friend is buying it from me for cheap. I'm 99% sure I tested PC mode a year or so ago and it wasn't any better, and may have even been worse.

I haven't noticed anything like this on B8 in HDR10 non-PC mode, but there's nothing to compare with :)
That show is in DoVi, so if you say it's there with the DoVi version or point out other show then I can check it (again with no reference :) ).
My friend who is similarly aggravated with posterization and feels like it ruins his dark room experience just tested that same scene from Boba Fett in DV (on his Vizio OLED, not LG) and says it's similar to what I showed him on my CX yesterday before he helped me unmount it.

IMO it seems worth you at least testing that scene on yours in either HDR10 or DV or both. Even without a reference, I feel like if you post a photo or two on here it will tell us enough to know whether it's similar to my CX or my friend's C7 or a C2/G2.

aron7awol

14th June 2022, 20:22

This post is kind of coming out of left field considering I just got rid of my CX, but I was just starting to look at DPL, DTN, avgHL ceiling settings again, and figured I'd share that I was really liking DPL 1100, DTN 72, and avgHL ceiling 3x on my CX. This combination was found using Batman v Superman and The Meg to find the right balance between highlight detail and beneficial clipping on 4000 nit content. Obviously it wasn't doing anything on 1000 nit content. Also, after testing lum methods again I definitely feel like max is best on OLEDs personally.

Kuler087

18th June 2022, 20:00

I just finished installing my C2 77" and ran quickly some patterns. 5% gray uniformity test: I can see the middle of the screen is darker. Will I notice that in real content viewing?
Surprisingly I did not notice any raised black in DV/HDR10/SDR but all the modes were crushed at 70/72 (ootb) while on the C8(calibrated) I only see raised/crushed black in DV.

No dead pixel, yeah!
So far the biggest upgrade is going from 65 to 77", oh man that thing is HUGE. I also really like that the DV logo is no longer bright white, that was quite annoying.
I'm curious to see my C8/C2 side by side though.

Kuler087

19th June 2022, 15:32

Updated the firmware...

Now HDR10/DV/SDR are no longer crushed but indeed now there is a glow in DV/SDR :(

I checked side by side the SM clip and HDR10 looks almost exactly the same on both TVs but in DV, the C2 is a lot more saturated with red/yellow/orange colors. Really a night and day difference when you look at them side by side.
Overall brightness looks pretty much the same except that the small highlights are clearly brighter on the C2.

I tried to take pictures with my phone:

C8:
https://i.ibb.co/Qk6t7zY/C8.png

C2:
https://i.ibb.co/wgrZ7PC/C2.png

Eagle beak almost looks like LLDV on the C2:

C8:
https://i.ibb.co/vh3nHpG/C82.png

C2:
https://i.ibb.co/vPB5SLQ/C22.png

quietvoid

19th June 2022, 16:02

What player did you use for playback?
The C2 doesn't support proper profile 7 Dolby Vision playback, while the C8 does.

Kuler087

19th June 2022, 16:05

Sony x800m2
but I got the same difference using PLEX internal app (profile 8)

quietvoid

19th June 2022, 16:11

Right, thanks. I'm seeing the same.
It might be the graded trim passes difference I mentioned previously.

Not sure when I'll be able to test it out, hopefully soon.

Kuler087

19th June 2022, 16:24

that would be nice. thank you

quietvoid

19th June 2022, 19:05

I'm not exactly sure what's happening, but I do get very different images from the internal player vs. my FireTV Stick 4K.
It's hard to tell if the cause is the L2 trim passes (this was on the mountain + sun shot). I can't really tell the different trim samples apart.

I'll have to check out the eagle beak later..

Some samples: https://mega.nz/file/kItlgQ6Z#ZiKDpDyI1yLSJpb64k4Fw_D-cBRI3SduJNJiYxSv0mA
They all look the same to me, so maybe something else is going on.

Kuler087

19th June 2022, 19:55

I generated DV with your dovi_tool/madvr. The C2 still has very strong color saturation(even at warm 0) compared to the C8. So it can't be coming from the trims. But then, the eagle beak now looks the same. So that paler brighter yellow is coming from the trims.

I don't see any difference between plex internal app C2 and my x800m2. I'll check my Shield.

I don't have the camera nor the space those youtube reviewers have but FWIW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNJvh6PPI4
left = 65" C8 right = 77" C2
Obviously, the difference is amplified but it gives a good idea.

@SamuriHL
is it the same on your G2? TVs don't have to be side by side, the difference is quite obvious.

"cmv29_metadata": {
"num_ext_blocks": 3,
"ext_metadata_blocks": [
{
"Level1": {
"min_pq": 0,
"max_pq": 3481,
"avg_pq": 2803
}
},
{
"Level5": {
"active_area_left_offset": 0,
"active_area_right_offset": 0,
"active_area_top_offset": 0,
"active_area_bottom_offset": 0
}
},
{
"Level6": {
"max_display_mastering_luminance": 10000,
"min_display_mastering_luminance": 50,
"max_content_light_level": 10000,
"max_frame_average_light_level": 1676
}
}
]
},
"cmv40_metadata": {
"num_ext_blocks": 3,
"ext_metadata_blocks": [
{
"Level9": {
"length": 1,
"source_primary_index": 2
}
},
{
"Level11": {
"content_type": 1,
"whitepoint": 0,
"reference_mode_flag": true,
"reserved_byte2": 0,
"reserved_byte3": 0
}
},
{
"Level254": {
"dm_mode": 0,
"dm_version_index": 2
}
}
]
}
},
"rpu_data_crc32": 1589861294
}
Parsing RPU file...
Exporting metadata...
Done.
[{"dovi_profile":8

Some samples: https://mega.nz/file/kItlgQ6Z#ZiKDpDyI1yLSJpb64k4Fw_D-cBRI3SduJNJiYxSv0mA
They all look the same to me, so maybe something else is going on.
thanks
Plex internal:
600nits looks like the original on C8
1000nits on the C8 still has the brighter yellow but looks strange.

On the C2, both look the same just like the original.

Maybe a sample with L2 600nits set to 2048 and 1000nits to strong values ?
And another sample with L2 600nits strong values and 1000nits 2048 ?

quietvoid

19th June 2022, 20:09

If the C2 is just overall more saturated without any trims, then I guess the internal mapping engine just behaves differently..
Though you made the RPU CM v4.x, which only the C2 supports. It might trigger different processing, too.

There's no way to tell which is supposed to be correct..
FWIW I'm pretty sure the C2 is closer to madVR's saturation, since I remember the C8 being pretty different.

aron7awol

26th June 2022, 18:43

I think I found a way to override mastering metadata in madVR!

1. Set your default HDR profile to TM to a DPL which you want to use for the metadata override
2. Switch to your actual desired HDR profile with a different DPL using a hotkey (hotkey not required but makes the workflow convenient)

The original metadata should stick despite changing profiles. Finally, a way to make the OLED track the way we want while using any DPL setting we want, it just involves one manual step of hitting a hotkey each time.

chros

27th June 2022, 07:33

Isn't this a driver/madvr/tv issue? I think it worked on the B8 in the past for me, the 19th WB value should change in the TV. I can check it later.

aron7awol

27th June 2022, 14:10

quietvoid

27th June 2022, 14:23

I'm pretty sure I remember the metadata being sent (properly set) on the first signal only on my C8.
So it's not something new.

aron7awol

27th June 2022, 14:33

I didn't think it was new, because as I thought about what I experienced during some of my testing a while back, it would explain what I was seeing. But it's an easy enough way to achieve the metadata override that madshi has not wanted to add for whatever reason.

SamuriHL

27th June 2022, 15:01

SO glad I got the VRROOM's. LOL

chros

28th June 2022, 09:54

Guys, we just setup my 77G2 yesterday! :) (long story short, I tried to cancel it 2 weeks ago, it arrived 1 week ago, stiil waiting for the cancellation, yesterday I said f*ck it :))
This thing was sooo heavy, 35 kg without anything!!! I have been sweating a lot :)

SamuriHL

28th June 2022, 11:43

Lol nice. I think you'll more impressed with it than you believe.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

28th June 2022, 19:33

We will see, I applied the Dovi 2pt WB hack to get proper black, and slowly break it in. One thing is for sure, it's big :)

SamuriHL

28th June 2022, 21:02

You get used to it. :) And by "used to it" I mean absolutely loving it. I have ZERO regrets going to 77".

Asmodian

28th June 2022, 23:27

77" WRGB or 65" QD-OLED? :confused:

chros

28th June 2022, 23:43

Good question, I won't buy Samsung, maybe Sony, but if ABLs can't be turned off then it would be a no go for me. Next year it should have 77" as well, I only wish LG would have a qd-oled lineup soon as well :)

Kuler087

29th June 2022, 00:32

The trick to get proper black doesnt work for me. I tried as low as -3.
Not even contrast 99 works (this worked on my C8). So far though, I did not notice raised black in real content. I noticed it all the time on my C8.

BTW, I just measured my C2 HDR10 mode, and it's very bright!!!

https://i.ibb.co/xhrMmwR/C2-luminance-ootb.png

chros

2nd July 2022, 16:57

I had to reinstall Windows 10, otherwise the vga driver went bonkers, just as it happened 3 years ago when I changed the old LG to B8. Not sure why, maybe its a bug in 1809, or some other unknown driver left back. I tried cru, ddu, nothing helped, so I screwed up 1 day from my live for this, again :)
But at least now it works as it should. The TV reached 6 small pixel refresh, during 26 hours, so I can slowly start testing/experimenting with thing.

chros

3rd July 2022, 12:50

I'd describe it as taking advantage of a bug in the latest madVR version (it exists in 159 and I don't know how far it goes back) where it doesn't re-send metadata when switching profiles, in order to achieve what we wanted. I suppose there could be something else in my system contributing.

I'm pretty sure I remember the metadata being sent (properly set) on the first signal only on my C8.
So it's not something new.

It worked fine back in the day with my B8, not sure when it was introduced, I reported this to madhsi (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-61791959).

The trick to get proper black doesnt work for me. I tried as low as -3.
Not even contrast 99 works (this worked on my C8). So far though, I did not notice raised black in real content. I noticed it all the time on my C8.

BTW, I just measured my C2 HDR10 mode, and it's very bright!!!
Yes, that's surprising! Who needs the G2 then?! :)
I watched DoVi content during the night and I haven't seen glowing black with the -1 settings (there were complete black screens couple of times), so that's weird that it doesn't work on the C2, although I haven't checked with patterns yet, probably soon I will.

Other stuff:
- uploading HDR10 EOTF params (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.3242257/post-61791966) seems to work with bscpylgtv
- - do we know what the "EOTF: 2" means on the 2nd screen of the HostDiag (https://github.com/chros73/bscpylgtv/blob/master/docs/scripts/lg-toggle-HostDiag.cmd) screen?
- wol is working as well (after enabling wifi standby):
- - wol.exe 75:E6:B9:A4:B7:A1 /d 192.168.1.255
- Simplink is better than how it was before on B8
- I haven't noticed HDMI handshake issue (no signal screen) yet that I had with B8, but I had to replace the HDMI cable from 0.9m to 1.5m so that could solve it
- we can toggle AI Picture pro in HDR10 PC mode as well (it's greyed out), but it doesn't seem to do anything
- - bscpylgtv ... set_current_picture_settings "{"ai_Picture": "on"}" aiPicture
- I applied the gamma 2.68 SDR 3dlut with the B8 to the madvr-G2 pair, so I can raise oled light (to 85, haven't measured it how many nits it means) and get HDR look with SDR content (obviously it's not the best approach, but it can do it until I get to calibration)

That's it for now

chros

5th July 2022, 01:05

AI Picture Pro is working in PC mode as well, I was wrong, although it has a very slight effect, darkening shadows.

chros

6th July 2022, 18:11

The trick to get proper black doesnt work for me. I tried as low as -3.
Not even contrast 99 works (this worked on my C8). So far though, I did not notice raised black in real content. I noticed it all the time on my C8.
Btw which player test files did you used for DoVi, was it the Shield with p8.1 by any chance? :)

Kuler087

6th July 2022, 19:21

Btw which player test files did you used for DoVi, was it the Shield with p8.1 by any chance? :)

nop, I used the plex internal tv app. Your G2 is pure black at -1 ? not glowing at all?

The test file I used is: ( no distracting flashing bars)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/100euaVEVUZI7rQ2gU7rWXkKBS3hdp4tM/view?usp=sharing

last night I noticed raised black for the first time in DV for Stranger things and Obi-wan. The only way I will notice it is if the picture stays completely black for more than 3 seconds. Anything shorter than that, my eyes can't adapt fast enough. This is in a perfect pitch-black room.

On the C8 I notice the raised black as soon as the screen is completely black, no need to wait 3 sec. It doesnt help that the left top/bottom corner seems to be brighter than the other side though.

chros

9th July 2022, 13:51

Yes, the Dovi hack works here fine and I tested lot of patterns and inputs (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/post-61805328). I didn't download yours yet, but I'll take a look at it.

chros

11th July 2022, 18:44

So, after watching various content in Hdr10 and PC mode: 2022 models are way better finally than 2018 were.
After checking the usual torture scenes, just as jk82 said last year already, there's no bt2020 3dlut processing issue (cyan/magenta bug), no posterization in near black content! Finally! :)
There is still minor banding (sending 12 bit RGB full range from PC) compared to normal mode, but I haven't noticed it from normal seating distance, so I don't care about it.
Hdr10 colors look less saturated compared to B8 (factory settings), so it's closer to what we could achieve with madvr 3dlut (that it was never correct).
Couple of shows need DTM and AIPP on the TV (eg The Expanse S01, that was upconverted from SDR by Amazon I guess) but they look great after that.
As I said it before, Hdr10 in PC mode is a bit darker compared to Normal mode (due to the smaller peak brightness, I guess), so it seems it undertacks EOTF a bit, so 2/22pt WB or 1dlut calibration is definitely needed.

Btw, how can we reboot the TV to see the WebOS logo at startup (without reset)??? I tried 5 different things at least, but I never saw the damn thing :)

Also, someone posted new key for 2022 models, so I'm working on the docs for it for bscpylgtv (there's no life changing change, it seems).

Sorry Kuler087, I still haven't checked your pattern, maybe tonight.

chros

12th July 2022, 22:57

Kuker087, I tried your sample and it works here as well using internal Plex client, so not sure what the issue is on your C2.

Kuler087

12th July 2022, 23:39

Thank's I'll try again this weekend, im getting closer to 100h.

chros

13th July 2022, 08:40

You will find more samples here (https://www.avforums.com/posts/27944812/), and don't use the Shield for testing :)

Kuler087

23rd July 2022, 15:43

Kuker087, I tried your sample and it works here as well using internal Plex client, so not sure what the issue is on your C2.

ok last night I updated the firmware of my TV by mistake and noticed that DV was even more raised, more than SDR. :(

But then I tried the WB RGB -1 method and this time it worked :D.
thanks a lot.

chros

23rd July 2022, 22:39

I'm glad to hear it! Which firmware did you use before?

Kuler087

24th July 2022, 13:39

I didn't check the firmware version I was on but if you update to the latest one, check out the black levels in DV: to me it is worse than ever. thankfully your WB trick works!!

chros

25th July 2022, 20:45

quietvoid, have you mentioned some sdr calibration issue with recent madvr betas?
I just did one @120nits with b159 plus DisplayCal, and it over brightens the image (it wasn't the case with B8 and old madvr, not sure which one).

quietvoid

25th July 2022, 21:10

Not sure, I just remember HDR being 2.2 instead of PQ.
I haven't calibrated the C2 yet, 2 months passed but it's not at 100 hours power-on time yet.

I'm planning on setting up a PGen and getting ColourSpace ZRO, eventually.

SamuriHL

26th July 2022, 14:45

PGen is definitely the way to go, especially with the new version coming out that'll handle DV calibration and verify (if LG ever fixes the damn verification mode bug on the 2022's). Fussing with madvr as a pattern gen is not really worth it. There's so many things that can go wrong (and most of them have nothing to do with madvr but more generally how the PC is configured). With PGen there's no guesswork.

chros

26th July 2022, 17:10

Oh, yes, now I remember you telling the hdr10 gamma level. Hmmm, thanks, I pay attention when I get there.

Not sure what happened yesterday, after replacing Argyll, madvr, css file with the old ones, now it's ok.
So I created an sdr gamma 2.68 at 234 nits (80 oled light on G2) and it looks good and as it should, but:
it's nothing compared to when I enable HLG processing on top of it! The dynamic range is brutal!!! :)
I'll watch sdr content like this and see how it goes.

chros

5th August 2022, 17:23

So, I created another gamma 2.4 3DLUT for PC mode Expert Dark (set to gamma 2.4, oled light 33) ~120nits and the resulting 3dlut again brightens the image (otherwise 3dlut is fine).
That means gamma 2.4 in PC mode overdarkens the image OOTB (I didn't have this issue with B8, although I only used it with >=4.10.25 firmwares.)

chros

10th August 2022, 10:08

SamuriHL

10th August 2022, 11:45

Lol! Always triple check the settings in each picture mode. I find the g2 can be a bit touchy at times. Especially switching back and forth to PC mode.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

quietvoid

12th August 2022, 04:05

Played around with ZRO and PGen 1.3, it's pretty fast to read patches.
Much better than Calman, HCFR is somewhat close.
Only tested SDR on a monitor, will try HDR on the C2 this weekend hopefully.

Managed to run DeviceControl on my Linux machine, so that's cool.
I don't really need it with ZRO, though. Useful to shutdown the Pi.

ZRO is really limited, so might try integrating the PGen in DisplayCal.

chros

12th August 2022, 12:20

Lol! Always triple check the settings in each picture mode.
:D Yeah, it seems so :)

Played around with ZRO and PGen 1.3, it's pretty fast to read patches.
Much better than Calman, HCFR is somewhat close.
Nice to hear it! So Calman is so buggy, laggy and I don't know how a big company can get away with a product like this.
madVR/madTPG also got a big speedup at some point, see below.

Only tested SDR on a monitor, will try HDR on the C2 this weekend hopefully.
What and how do you want to deal with HDR10?

Managed to run DeviceControl on my Linux machine, so that's cool.
I don't really need it with ZRO, though. Useful to shutdown the Pi.
Nice! Not sure why it was implemented in perl though :D

ZRO is really limited, so might try integrating the PGen in DisplayCal.
Woow, this would be cool! (Although I don't have PGen and maybe never will :) )
DisplayCal still has issue with x64 version of ArgyllCMS, sometimes it just throws an error after the long profiling session :( If you can take a look why and fix it? :)

About madVR/madTPG, still SDR profiling: it got way faster (when exactly???).
Using the preset default ~1545 patches, White level drift comp is on, Maximize RGB diff is set at Patch sequence (to make it faster on OLED) the rest is default, profiling time with:
- old stable release: ~50 minutes
- beta 163: ~35 minutes
verifying with XXL video with 755 patches:
- old stable release: ~22 minutes
- beta 163: ~15 minutes

I also used the latest Argyll 2.31 32bit version and now all is good (using the 2018 ccss spectral correction, maybe AIPP was also on at that time??? :) ).
The resulting whitepoint is still completely random: sometimes it's 6480K or below, sometimes it's 6520K or above (I prefer the latter), so multiple profiling sessions need to be run to have the desired result.

I haven't tried HDR10 yet with the new beta, that's what I'll do next.

quietvoid

12th August 2022, 12:58

What and how do you want to deal with HDR10?2pt for HDR10, probably 2pt + config for Dolby Vision.
Might try 22pt Dolby Vision eventually.

SamuriHL

12th August 2022, 14:12

22pt DV works very well. I've done it to my G2 and just did a 20pt for my C8 last weekend. Of course I can't validate anything on the G2 in DV but it's certainly better than using the iTPG. PGen 1.3 on an RPI4 absolutely rocks. ColourSpace is getting LG support built in, as well. I'm hoping that means uploading LUTS and all of that will be controllable from CS at some point. No more DeviceControl at all if that happens. The next firmware release should allow us to calibrate 22pt HDR on the C2/G2. Would be curious to see how that goes using 10bit patches. I still need to deal with SDR on the G2 one of these weekends. I've had zero time for anything lately. Right now I don't have it dialed in very well for SDR modes.

aron7awol

13th August 2022, 15:02

I haven't tried HDR10 yet with the new beta, that's what I'll do next.
FYI, I ran into an issue using madTPG with HDR on later betas, I want to say it was 159 at the time. I forget exactly what the issue I ran into was, something like saturation sweeps appearing to show severe gamut compression even when set to HDR passthrough IIRC. I ended up downgrading to 113 for this purpose and everything worked great, so I didn't dig into the issue any further. Will be interesting to see if you have a similar experience.

or231

22nd August 2022, 23:58

chros

23rd August 2022, 08:57

chros, I tried to upload 3dlut on a lg c1 with bscpylgtv but got error "3D LUT Upload not supported by tv model OLED48C1". I'm going to get lg 42c2 soon and wanted to know if there is an option to do it with bscpylgtv or other free way.
Newer models are not officially supported, however you can apply this patch (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/pull/55) to add support for them, but for your own responsibility.
I only uploaded 1dlut into HDR10 and DoVi Cinema presets and that worked fine.
Note that start_calibration method doesn't work for me either (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/issues/44) in HDR10, it works fine in SDR, I haven't tried DoVi yet. You can start calibration mode using DeviceControl and the free 2021 PQ param upload template.

or231

23rd August 2022, 14:19

Newer models are not officially supported, however you can apply this patch (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/pull/55) to add support for them, but for your own responsibility.
I only uploaded 1dlut into HDR10 and DoVi Cinema presets and that worked fine.
Note that start_calibration method doesn't work for me either (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/issues/44) in HDR10, it works fine in SDR, I haven't tried DoVi yet. You can start calibration mode using DeviceControl and the free 2021 PQ param upload template.

Thank you so much, I do not have a c1 anymore, so I can not try it right now, but I will get c2 and will try to upload a sdr 3dlut.

aron7awol

29th August 2022, 04:31

Has anyone here made a verification test chart which is only P3 within 2020?

quietvoid

29th August 2022, 16:59

Has anyone here made a verification test chart which is only P3 within 2020?

Not exactly sure what you're looking for. Test patterns? Patch sets?

aron7awol

29th August 2022, 17:08

Not exactly sure what you're looking for. Test patterns? Patch sets?
Patch set to verify a display using DisplayCal with only P3 within 2020 patches so that P3 displays don't have tons of out-of-gamut patches generating high dE.

Separately I want to also filter them to some maximum RGB value, like, say 60% or 65% or 70% or 75% so we aren't asking for patches that are brighter than the display can reach too, but that's easy enough.

I'm almost done working on one that I am trying to manually convert and filter out of the XXXL video patchset. I'll share it when it's done in case it is useful to anyone, but was curious if anyone had already done something similar, and maybe better than what I'll end up with.

quietvoid

29th August 2022, 17:45

It's something I've looked into doing, but I couldn't find the right math to figure out the correct RGB range for P3.
Not sure it exists (publicly) but I'd be interested if you manage to do it. Otherwise I might try again later.

Surely DisplayCAL (or ArgyllCMS) has some scripts to generate the ti1 patch sets.
https://argyllcms.com/doc/targen.html

aron7awol

29th August 2022, 18:47

I ended up with about 470 patches after converting the XXXL video patchset to P3 within 2020 and then filtering out everything above 60%. I'm doing a test run now to confirm it works as expected. If it does, I'll do some filtered to higher luminance levels and then publish all of them here.

aron7awol

29th August 2022, 20:55

Alright, so something went wrong in my first run process based on what I'm seeing for results (still a bunch of patches beyond P3). I'll share everything I've done so far. Graeme Gill suggested I use his icclu tool to convert from P3 RGB to L*a*b* and then to 2020 RGB, which makes sense.

So I started with the 1005-patch "XXXL verification testchart (video)" which is verify_video_xxxl.ti1
Opened that up and pulled out the RGB values and put them in a separate text file called rgbinput.txt
icclu -pl -ff -s 100 -ir ACES_P3.icm < rgbinput.txt > laboutput.txt
Then opened that up and pulled out the L*a*b*values and put them in a separate text file called labinput.txt
icclu -pl -fb -s 100 -ir Rec2020.icm < labinput.txt > rgboutput.txt
Then we also need the XYZ values to populate the testchart file, so I pulled the resulting RGB values out and put them in a separate text file called rgbinput2.txt
icclu -px -ff -s 100 -or Rec2020.icm < rgbinput2.txt > xyzoutput.txt
Optional: Combined the RGB and XYZ values into CSV and removed anything with R,G, or B value >60 (they are in %) to keep everything <240 nits for now.
Converted the RGB and XYZ values into the space-delimited format for testchart .ti1 format and put them into the .ti1 appropriately.
Loaded the testchart into DisplayCal to make sure everything looked normal (it did), then sorted by "Maximize lightness difference" and saved. This is also optional, but figured it was a good step to make sure DisplayCal was happy with the result anyway.

Known potential issues:
1. The XXXL video testchart was probably designed with SDR 709 in mind, which isn't ideal for our HDR purposes, but as a proof of concept I wasn't really concerned if the spacing of patches was optimal by using a pre-conditioning profile of P3 or anything else like that. I don't think this will cause any major issues.
2. When viewing the profiles in DisplayCal, ACES_P3.icm uses Gamma 2.6 tone response curve, DisplayP3.icm uses sRGB, and Rec2020.icm uses Rec.709. This seemed like it could cause some big problems, and so this is what I'm leaning toward as the issue currently. I thought about creating synthetic profiles of P3 and 2020 using 2084 tone curve before I went through this process. I'll try that now. Hopefully that straightens things out.

Edit: Just did some quick manual testing with P3 primaries and the synthetic profiles. I think the conversion is working correctly now! I'll post the testchart as soon as I'm done.

Here's the full 1005 original patches, transformed to P3 within 2020 and in .csv format. From here it can be filtered down (what I'm about to do) and then placed into a testchart file.
https://mega.nz/file/hEkDzAYK#F2Cl1CLU4mSwo955gAGsoUlR35sjzC1nyXaA8TfSHNQ

And here's the resulting testchart limited to RGB values of 60% max (369 patches):
https://mega.nz/file/RMcTlDaL#3F4TbHqQyw3XIO0m7EXlo9ZPc-9Zy61NV02dJIvgPxA

And here's the resulting testchart limited to RGB values of 70% max (482 patches):
https://mega.nz/file/xE8GUQRI#hDcYG7CHXNRDYIkAU2Zld0JYX0aLKDjmnhwcK7xunss

So if this works we should be able to generate a testchart preconditioned to the synthetic P3 2084 profile and have better spacing and also not have to discard a bunch of generated patches like I did. I'll test it shortly...

Update: the 369 patch filtered chart I shared works really well! Nothing seems to be out of gamut and so average dE is much better. However, my first attempts to generate a new full testchart using my synthetic P3 profile for preconditioning has resulted in targen hanging.

Update2: We can use the P3 D65 2084 10000 nit profile for preconditioning when we generate testcharts.

Kuler087

1st September 2022, 17:40

did anyone get the C2/G2 new update that supposedly fixes overly bright DV cinema mode? Is it really fixed?
I read that the firmware is out but still nothing on my TV :(

SamuriHL

1st September 2022, 20:00

Yes, it's fixed. And there's yet another new firmware out today but because people were morons, the one person who has access to the internal release list is no longer posting them so we have no clue what's been fixed. People suck.

Kuler087

1st September 2022, 20:29

awesome thanks! I can watch DV again.

SamuriHL

1st September 2022, 21:45

The one thing they've not fixed is the DV verify but. I don't know if it's fixed in the latest version or not as I've not applied it yet. But I doubt it. I don't think calibration related issues are ever going to get fixed now.

Kuler087

1st September 2022, 23:25

Just did the update and with quietvoid's rpu test file, L1 is no longer clipped (internal player). Nice! And it looks like the L1 response with my X800m2 has been improved as well but it is still different than my internal player and shield.
SDR black levels are no longer raised.
this is a great firmware update.

@SamuriHL I thought we could verify in ZRO? sorry i am really not an expert in the calibration stuff.

SamuriHL

2nd September 2022, 12:58

We could if lg fixes the bug in their firmware on the 2022 series. Right now no one can verify dv with any equipment because dv verify mode is broken.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

Kuler087

3rd September 2022, 01:32

overall, the C2 internal player seems to perform the best...

https://i.ibb.co/djLNXPd/Capture.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJtwu1bwlug)

SamuriHL

3rd September 2022, 03:51

Can't say I'm super surprised at those results. They put a lot of effort into that last release. Tomorrow I'm going to update to the next one. I'm seeing something off in hdr with the big dv update firmware. I'm wondering if it's fixed in this little update they just released. They're certainly getting there.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

3rd September 2022, 09:21

What is off?

SamuriHL

3rd September 2022, 14:10

When measuring hdr for 22pt calibration it's showing as raised above gamma 2.2. It's very likely an issue on my end but I want to see if the latest firmware makes any difference. Honestly it's acting like dynamic tone mapping is enabled when it's clearly disabled in the settings. It's odd.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

4th September 2022, 09:24

Is it with factory luts and without 22pt mod?

SamuriHL

4th September 2022, 10:21

Yes

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

Kuler087

4th September 2022, 15:00

I have issues with HDR10 as well. Filmmaker and Cinema mode keep getting randomly broken. It all started when I first connected my HTPC and it saw my TV as gsync compatible. (happened before the last 2 firmware update as well)
Some settings are greyed out and the only way to fix is a mode reset. It's really annoying.

I did a video showing my issue:

https://i.ibb.co/PQbtfsQ/Capture.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4XLO6wZvx8)

SamuriHL

4th September 2022, 20:05

No no no no no. You're running into a known issue that IS annoying but stop resetting the mode. NOT needed. Go to the tv inputs/home dashboard, hit the ... at the top, and EDIT the input. Change the icon to anything but PC, save it, and then change it AGAIN back to whatever it was, and save it again. What's happening, when you see those grayed out options (Just scan being one of them and the easiest to check) is that it's going into PC mode even though you do NOT have a PC mode icon selected. I HATE this bug.

Kuler087

4th September 2022, 20:27

thanks this was driving me nuts. I'll sleep better tonight lol

SamuriHL

5th September 2022, 01:00

I completely understand the irritation on that one. LOL

Emulle

18th September 2022, 12:29

I am having this annoying issue on my LG C1/Denon AVR-S660H with a 3090 which I cannot find any info on online.. Been struggling all weekend with it!
And worse yet, I did not have this issue with my 1080 Ti.

Whenever ANY refresh rate below 50Hz is applied with 10bit color depth, the panel will stay in 120Hz whereas Nvidia Control Panel/MadVR will report the panel to display whichever refresh rate was picked. This induces strange stuttering and whatnot. However, if 8bit or 12bit color depth is used, the panel will correctly produce any refresh rate picked.

I can get refresh rates below 50Hz to work in 10bit mode, but only if manually chosen in Nvidia Control Panel when the same refresh rate is already applied.

What is up with that? Is this some sort of EDID problem?

This is the reported color depths:
>50Hz
RGB 8b TM
RGB 10b 4L10
RGB 12b 4L10

<50Hz
RGB 8b TM
RGB 10b 4L10
RGB 12b TM

ashlar42

22nd September 2022, 12:57

Anyone know whether madVR pattern generator is capable of handling 10 bit output correctly. Thought about giving these (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-61931669) a try but I would prefer to avoid buying a raspberry just for that.
madVR handles it correctly for playback so I suppose it should work fine but thought about asking. Thanks.

SamuriHL

22nd September 2022, 19:52

chros

23rd September 2022, 07:48

I only got RPI4 for DoVi, I used HCFR and madTPG (set to 8 bit!) with HDR10 and result is amazing.
And the usual upside of madtpg: it is an end to end calibration, unlike any other tpg.

SamuriHL

23rd September 2022, 11:55

It's still subjected to the limitations I outlined. Your gpu and windows settings will impact it and affect whether it's bit accurate or not. E.g. window scaling needs to be set to 100%. If you've ever tried to get Dolby vision calibration to work on a gpu then you understand the issue but it's not just a problem for dv. It impacts all calibration done through the gpu.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

chros

23rd September 2022, 15:52

Yes, you ate right, but I think instability in hdr is way bigger issue than tge rest.
Btw how do you use your meter, contact or contactless mode? How's stability for you?

SamuriHL

23rd September 2022, 16:37

Contact mode and stability on the G2 is pretty decent. When I'm doing a 22pt HDR calibration I have 10 second intervals and I bounce between high and low. I.E. I'll do 1023 first as it's sort of the baseline for everything else, then I'll jump down to 54, back up to the next highest, next lowest, etc. That helps improve stability a bit. These panels are never going to be stable in HDR. That's just the nature of WOLED. You do the best you can to get gamma 2.2 tracking which then translates to a decent EOTF curve if all goes well. Trying to achieve some kind of "perfection" is a fool's errand. It's not possible. Don't even bother. Many people far more experienced than us with very expensive equipment already tried. And they weren't able to do any better than what we're doing now.

chros

23rd September 2022, 19:21

Cheers, I wonder how more pricer meters (eg Klein) work in contactless mode regarding to stability.
Because if they behave the same then all the "accurate eotf tracking" that calibrators are preaching is just a big fat BS :)

SamuriHL

23rd September 2022, 19:56

They measure more accurately but nothing can negate panel instability. What you measure and calibrate one day is going to be different the next. That's just the reality of how these panels work. It's accurate at the time it was calibrated, but with WOLED that's not saying a whole lot. Now, SDR and even to some degree DV is different in this regard. DV uses some complicated processing which as we know often has issues of its own. SDR, otoh, is fantastic on these panels when calibrated well. In any case I wouldn't necessarily call it BS as it's the absolute best you can do on these panels and will be better than the factory calibration 9 times out of 10, but HDR on WOLED can hardly be called super accurate in general.

ashlar42

23rd September 2022, 23:21

The answer isn't that simple, unfortunately. madvr TPG will support 10 bit, yes. That's the wrong question to ask, however. What you should be asking is "given the full chain of Windows, madvr TPG, video card drivers, and the GPU itself, will I get bit perfect 10 bit patterns?" Um....maybe. But it's not as simple as telling madvr to output 10 bit. So yea, honestly I'd just use an RPI4 with PGenerator and call it good. But that's just me. And Chros. And many other people. :D

Yeah, I get the usual caveats (not downplaying them, mind). I was just interested in ensuring that the potential for 10 bit was there.

As far as the caveats are concerned, you are right. On the other hand they apply, point by point, to playback as well. So... you calibrate perfectly through Raspberry Pi4. Then you play stuff back on a different machine using madVR, subject to all the caveats. Not sure what the best scenario here is, considering the end to end point that chros correctly raises (IMHO).

Thanks to the both of you for the answers. Much appreciated.

SamuriHL

23rd September 2022, 23:35

IMNSHO.... :)

It's better to calibrate to as close to reference as you can rather than to a flawed chain. "My chain isn't bit perfect so I should calibrate to that" is by its very essence incorrect. I use madvr, as well. And since I've actually done the dolby vision calibration with my GPU (once, and I hated it), I know my GPU and the way I've got it configured is bit accurate. But if you deviate from that, you don't know what you're going to get out of windows + GPU. It's irritating as hell. Trying to calibrate to that, however, is going to lead to more problems instead of "correcting them".

aron7awol

8th October 2022, 01:49

Not really, it's usually a couple software to setup. So without prior experience this isn't as simple.

I had the idea of trying with mpv and it seems to be a possible solution.
My setup was like this:
mpv.conf

input.conf

With this, I toggled between the primaries with F3 and saw noticeable desaturation for WCG red, at least.
However it seems to oversaturate most of the other colors..
So I was playing with this again, and your toggle between target-prim of bt.2020 and bt.709 is working well.

I also notice that mpv has this option to invert pixels which exceed the target primaries, which I think would be really useful to be able to toggle off/on similarly and highlight the >709 pixels:
https://mpv.io/manual/stable/#options-gamut-warning

But it is not working for me, and I'm not sure why. Would you mind trying it on your end?

quietvoid

8th October 2022, 03:42

But it is not working for me, and I'm not sure why. Would you mind trying it on your end?

In the latest versions you need to use --gamut-mapping-mode=warn.

aron7awol

8th October 2022, 14:40

In the latest versions you need to use --gamut-mapping-mode=warn.
Does it work for you in combination with target-prim=bt.709 and tone-mapping=clip , or with some other combination of settings?

In addition to the above, I actually tried combinations in my config of
gamut-mapping-mode=warn
gamut-warning=yes
gamut-clipping=no

but never actually saw any inverted pixels, even on test patterns that I know go way past 709 to P3 and even 2020, and toggling the primaries with the shortcut you shared is definitely having huge effects on these patterns.

quietvoid

8th October 2022, 17:04

Does it work for you in combination with target-prim=bt.709 and tone-mapping=clip , or with some other combination of settings?

In addition to the above, I actually tried combinations in my config of
gamut-mapping-mode=warn
gamut-warning=yes
gamut-clipping=no

but never actually saw any inverted pixels, even on test patterns that I know go way past 709 to P3 and even 2020, and toggling the primaries with the shortcut you shared is definitely having huge effects on these patterns.

Edit: Okay, I guess it's kind of working, just not as expected. I'll keep testing to try to figure out what seems to be happening.
Yea I'm not exactly sure of the behaviour with target-trc=pq.
It's a bit inconsistent with the default VO.

I can see a lot of warning pixels with just mpv --no-config --target-prim=bt.709 --gamut-mapping-mode=warn.
But it's better in PQ output if I use vo=gpu-next instead.

In order of 709/P3/2020:

https://i.postimg.cc/18Hk14Dn/mpv-shot0001.jpg (https://postimg.cc/18Hk14Dn) https://i.postimg.cc/1g7b4TCy/mpv-shot0002.jpg (https://postimg.cc/1g7b4TCy) https://i.postimg.cc/7CZpHDNB/mpv-shot0003.jpg (https://postimg.cc/7CZpHDNB)

So yea I'd recommend sticking to vo=gpu-next.
A lot of settings changed wrt. HDR but I don't think the online documentation reflects them yet.

aron7awol

9th October 2022, 00:53

Yea I'm not exactly sure of the behaviour with target-trc=pq.
It's a bit inconsistent with the default VO.

I can see a lot of warning pixels with just mpv --no-config --target-prim=bt.709 --gamut-mapping-mode=warn.
But it's better in PQ output if I use vo=gpu-next instead.

So yea I'd recommend sticking to vo=gpu-next.
A lot of settings changed wrt. HDR but I don't think the online documentation reflects them yet.
Hmm, it seems like it's only or at least partially working as part of tone-mapping to lower luminance, but seemingly not really working as part of straight gamut mapping.

I played Inside Out which I know from past checking in Davinci Resolve goes way beyond P3, and even with target-prim of 709 it's not warning on anything with mpv set to 10000 nits.

I haven't had a chance to try no-config but I'm thinking maybe the reason for that big difference you're seeing is because with no-config it tonemaps to SDR? Just a guess.

quietvoid

9th October 2022, 03:55

I haven't had a chance to try no-config but I'm thinking maybe the reason for that big difference you're seeing is because with no-config it tonemaps to SDR? Just a guess.

No, those screenshots were using --target-trc=pq --target-peak=10000.

aron7awol

12th October 2022, 04:56

mpv just couldn't seem to perform this task correctly no matter which combination of settings I tried, so I wrote an HLSL pixel shader to do it instead. It's my first ever pixel shader and the first coding I've done in years, and I was really just trying to make it work above all else, so please forgive the somewhat sloppy code. :) I can obviously still clean it up a bit, but it does seem to work really well in my testing so far. I have been using it as a post-resize shader in MPC-BE (and toggling it on/off with ctrl+alt+p) with HDR output via madVR.

https://github.com/aron7awol/gamutShader

https://i.imgur.com/mnu0uQ9.jpg

chros

12th October 2022, 14:32

Now that's really cool , I'll give it a try as well , thanks.

Alexkral

12th October 2022, 19:59

const static float dark = 0.1;

0.1 = 1000 nits, you want a smaller value as dark threshold.

aron7awol

12th October 2022, 20:32

0.1 = 1000 nits, you want a smaller value as dark threshold.
It's 0.1 in PQ, so about 0.33 nits.

I will actually move the dark check above the conversions to be more efficient, though. This was cobbled together quickly and isn't fully optimized yet.

I also added an option to black out pixels inside gamut, showing only pixels outside gamut, as-is.

Edit: It now defaults to leaving out-of-gamut pixels alone and desaturating inside-gamut pixels.

Alexkral

13th October 2022, 01:59

Yes sorry. I did this some time ago and found that most, if not all of the out of gamut pixels, were right on the edges. So it is probably due to doing multiple conversions without the necessary precision.

Also, the function you're using to check that the point is inside the triangle isn't the most accurate it's possible to do, but I don't think that changes anything.

aron7awol

13th October 2022, 03:53

Yes sorry. I did this some time ago and found that most, if not all of the out of gamut pixels, were right on the edges. So it is probably due to doing multiple conversions without the necessary precision.
FWIW, I did some spot checking of the shader by comparing to opening files in DaVinci Resolve and it seemed to be working very well. I'm not sure what content you checked exactly, but there is a good amount of content which goes way beyond the edges, confirmed by viewing in Resolve.
Also, the function you're using to check that the point is inside the triangle isn't the most accurate it's possible to do, but I don't think that changes anything.
Are you sure about that? The reason I switched to this particular method is because it was confirmed to even work with points which fall exactly on the edge of the triangle. Obviously precision is a separate issue, but I wanted to at least use an algo that handled edge cases properly.

See here:
https://stackoverflow.com/a/20861130

Previously I had been using a simpler triangle check of comparing gamut area with the sum of the areas of the triangles formed by the point and pairs of primaries, which I knew wasn't perfect (but I was trying to do a really quick first implementation), and I added a small fudge factor to the main triangle area to eliminate false positives. But after I switched to this method I compared both methods and they gave very similar results other than the slight difference of things tightening up by not needing/using a fudge factor.

In any case, obviously a hard line is always going to be sort of arbitrary. I mean, it's not like P3 red sucks and just barely beyond P3 red is amazing; in reality they look about the same. But it's still useful to see what is in the the content, and I've already thought about extending the functionality to differentiate further by distance from the boundary.

Alexkral

13th October 2022, 05:00

Are you sure about that?

Not really, not an expert at all, but if you read the comments you'll see that all these methods have some specific problem, so I ended up combining several as suggested here:

http://totologic.blogspot.com/2014/01/accurate-point-in-triangle-test.html

I'm not sure what content you checked exactly, but there is a good amount of content which goes way beyond the edges, confirmed by viewing in Resolve.

I did it to check if the DCI-P3 content in a BT.2020 container was really limited to that space. I tried it with some UHD Blu-ray movies, not extensively, but that's what I found in all cases. I also remember that most of the out of gamut pixels were concentrated around the middle of the edges, that is, in the location of the secondary colors (particularly magenta).

This was a few years ago however, I have no idea what the result would be with more current content.

chros

23rd October 2022, 21:29

New bscpylgtv v0.4.0 (https://github.com/chros73/bscpylgtv/releases) is out, it's mostly about calibration changes, lot of new stuff has been added. :)
Big thanks to Hifi4Vision, without him half of the new stuff couldn't have been done. Interesting parts:
- we have get calibration methods now, although they are completely broken on >=2020 models :)
- and ability to reset factory calibration data uploaded via calibration API!!! No more factory reset!!! :)

Enjoy!

@aron7awol, I hope you still have an LG Oled around :) Btw, which qd-oled have you got, samsung or sony? And how do you like it ...

aron7awol

24th October 2022, 03:40

Btw, which qd-oled have you got, samsung or sony? And how do you like it ...
Samsung (the prices are crazy low here with EPP). Love love love it. Will be ordering the 77 as soon as it's available!

Did you play with my pixel shader at all? I have been working on enhancing it to give the option to hide colors which are beyond P3 but not far enough to be perceptible. To do this I have tried a couple different gamut mapping approaches, hard clip to P3 RGB, and geometric mapping to the P3 gamut boundary within xyY space, and then calculating dEITP between those and the original pixel.

Edit: Updated the shader to be a lot more flexible with the ability to filter by a threshold of dEITP vs clipping to P3. Also, please check out the second post, where I compiled some interesting ICtCp color volume data at different levels of black and peak white, along with gamut.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/checking-for-bt-2020-color-gamut-usage-beyond-p3-in-real-content.3256532/

chros

29th October 2022, 21:27

bscpylgtv 0.4.1 (https://github.com/chros73/bscpylgtv/releases) is out.

Damien147

8th November 2022, 14:57

Long story short I am thinking of waiting for the next gen qd oled from samsung and buy it if it's similarly priced as this gen.My question is if it's supposedly hdmi version 2.1a can I get away with my hdmi version 2.0b card for watching HDR with madvr or do I need a new card?I've read that 2.1a brings some changes for HDR but do I really need a card that supports that version if my higher aim is 23hz HDR with Madvr?

edit:

HDMI 2.1a Dynamic HDR

No, but it will be necessary to enable 4K120 and 8K60 video with HDR due to the high bandwidth required by these resolutions and refresh rates.

The question was if a new cable is required for Dynamic HDR.

I guess I am fine with my 2.0b card.

Damien147

14th November 2022, 17:35

PC mode is 60hz only?I mean can you have 23hz together with 4:4:4 on your TV?

chros

14th November 2022, 18:56

Yes, you can on LG Oleds, and no new card is required for <=60 Hz.
Which TV do you have?

Damien147

14th November 2022, 22:55

I am not asking for the TV that I own now but for the one I am gonna buy next year if everything goes fine.Looking to learn some stuff and I am asking you guys here because you have a descent TV with HDR.Can 23hz+4:4:4+HDR be done or am I talking nonsense now?

As I said earlier I am planning to buy next gen qd oled from samsung if the price is similar as this gen.Yeah,it's too early as it doesn't exist yet but I am curious.

huhn

15th November 2022, 02:48

it's a very common feature for many many years now.
there are some brands that struggles a couple years ago and may still do that but the majority can do that.
TVs 10-15 years go could do that you just hat to get the correct one.

these qd things from Samsung are not recommendable:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhto9MmiExE handsdown just bad.

if you want that tech get one that is not from Samsung.

Damien147

15th November 2022, 11:36

Yeah,I was reading and watching videos a few months ago about some never seen colors and stuff from reviewers and it was proven BS.
I've seen that video a few days ago and then I've seen another or read that they released a firmware update that adresses the thingy with the ''magical'' colors.Maybe they will cut the crap after being ''exposed'' this year.
Yesterday I checked the price of the 55 inch qd oled from samsung and it dropped to ~1200 euro.Of course it's also the price that I want one.Well,let's see what next gen brings.

You guys with your HDR TVs and a meter(for calibration) do you use a meter in any way to watch HDR?

I have colormunki display which is 1000 nits but these qd oleds go beyond 1000 nits in HDR.I need a new meter if I buy a TV like this?

aron7awol

26th November 2022, 17:30

That video from Vincent (from 7 months ago!) was in response to a bunch of Youtubers going crazy about the S95B while not realizing what was actually causing the differences they were seeing. Those of us who measured saw the overboosted EOTF clear as day. A firmware update gave us accurate EOTF tracking shortly thereafter, so it's no longer an issue.

That being said, Samsung's software is pretty awful, and you have to know that going in and be able and willing to work around it. It's not a problem for me, but it might be for someone else.

senzaparole

8th December 2022, 15:47

Hi guys. I have a problem. After allowing several updates I noticed that my TV no longer automatically switches to HDR mode.
I have a PC connected to LG TV. does anyone know how i can fix it?

senzaparole

11th December 2022, 22:25

I solved. It was an AMD driver update. I unistalled them and now everything works fine

Klaus1189

12th December 2022, 06:20

Could you please post the issue in the drivers thread and what you did? What version has an issue and which one fixed it?
AMD, Intel and Nvidia driver issues and last recommended version (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176013)

senzaparole

13th December 2022, 23:12

Garath

30th December 2022, 01:03

Hello, I have been using my cx for two years, in pc mode, 10 bpc / rgb / full.
I am very satisfied, except for the judder.
In terms of visual quality, do I lose anything by giving up pc mode? I don't use the TV as a monitor.

Klaus1189

30th December 2022, 01:26

Judder?

Garath

30th December 2022, 02:33

Judder?

I probably used the wrong term, I don't know lol
Sometimes the video is not smooth when the camera moves in a certain way. 24p

Damien147

2nd January 2023, 21:59

Did you guys notice an overall picture quality improvement by jumping from led to oled or just in the dark scenes and blacks?

Klaus1189

2nd January 2023, 22:30

No. I have both OLED TVs and QLED TVs, which is high end lcd based with led background. Both have their pros and cons.

Klaus1189

2nd January 2023, 22:31

I probably used the wrong term, I don't know lol
Sometimes the video is not smooth when the camera moves in a certain way. 24p
Post mediainfo log of file and Screenshot of Stats. Ctrl + j

Damien147

3rd January 2023, 15:08

No. I have both OLED TVs and QLED TVs, which is high end lcd based with led background. Both have their pros and cons.

I have an entry level 4K Samsung for now with 4000:1 contrast and UHD dimming disabled(it messes picture).I have it calibrated and I am happy with the picture except on the dark scenes where things become dark grey.I am trying to find a better reason to upgrade beyond the dark scenes improvement and that's why I ask.

Klaus1189

3rd January 2023, 16:26

Which one exactly?

Asmodian

3rd January 2023, 17:54

Did you guys notice an overall picture quality improvement by jumping from led to oled or just in the dark scenes and blacks?

Colors look richer, even on the WRGB OLEDs. I think it might be the lack of a polarizing layer on top of the pixels or maybe that tiny amount of the other subpixels always bleeding through since it can never get to 0%. It might be psychovisual due to the very slight shift in the image if you move even a small amount that you get viewing an LCD.

This difference doesn't pop as much as the difference in dark scenes and black, but I always notice it on OLEDs compared to LCDs.

Klaus1189

3rd January 2023, 18:08

QLED looks very different to ordinary LCD, which looks like washed out in comparison.

Asmodian

3rd January 2023, 18:37

Yes, QLED helps this aspect a lot, but they still have some of that LCD look. The better conventional backlights on higher end LCDs help too, but it is never quite good enough.

That said, I wouldn't mind a good QLED display in a brighter room or with bias lighting. :D

Klaus1189

3rd January 2023, 18:57

I wouldn't mind a good QLED display in a brighter room or with bias lighting. :D

That's why I have next to OLEDs also high end QLEDs.

Damien147

3rd January 2023, 20:01

Which one exactly?

Samsung KU6300 (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ku6300)

Colors look richer, even on the WRGB OLEDs. I think it might be the lack of a polarizing layer on top of the pixels or maybe that tiny amount of the other subpixels always bleeding through since it can never get to 0%. It might be psychovisual due to the very slight shift in the image if you move even a small amount that you get viewing an LCD.

This difference doesn't pop as much as the difference in dark scenes and black, but I always notice it on OLEDs compared to LCDs.

By you saying richer colors can I suppose more realistic picture?

quietvoid

3rd January 2023, 20:15

IMO it depends heavily on your environment.

I recently got a QN90B for a bright room, and it's pretty good except for viewing angles.
The contrast is alright, I don't really notice the local dimming and letterbox bars are black most of the time.
Either way, it's not used in the dark so I don't mind.

huhn

3rd January 2023, 21:26

the switch from LCD to OLED was pretty minor in general.

the thing i notice as a major difference where uniformity and zero added motion artifacts.

everything else was minor even CR doesn't jump out much as long as you are not using them next to each other.

i also notice a terrible pink tint worse than any viewing angle issue i have seen.
VRR is also pretty much broken the low brightness spikes makes it useless.

Klaus1189

3rd January 2023, 21:35

@huhn: What oled(s) do you have? LG?

huhn

3rd January 2023, 22:26

CX6 the VRR issue is well known on them.

Klaus1189

3rd January 2023, 22:30

Didn‘t know that, unfortunately.

huhn

3rd January 2023, 22:34

new one supposedly don't have a fix for that too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWwqzQ6CD2M

Damien147

4th January 2023, 16:07

Ignorance is bliss for me and many times with the help of Madvr I really enjoy the picture on my cheap calibrated VA panel.The thing is that in the future I'm gonna live in two different places depending on the season and the TV will be left to ''rot''.I just don't know exactly when and it's a pity for the TV to end like this.It's a temptation if there was a really noticeable overall picture quality improvement but only for the dark scenes it seems better to spend 2000 euro on walks and buy a new TV when I 'm gonna need a second one.
Thanks guys.

Asmodian

4th January 2023, 16:43

i also notice a terrible pink tint worse than any viewing angle issue i have seen.

This is a bad defect, weird to see LG's upgraded panel tech have this horrible pink tint off angle. It also makes it really bad for a monitor, where you sit closer, so it is easy to see.

So far, the pink tint is only an issue with that specific generation of panels, isn't it?
Edit: Actually, I think it is an issue with all their new panels. :(

huhn

4th January 2023, 20:06

yeah which is odd because i have an CX and the "EVO" are the "new" ones which are part of the 2021 series flag ship i forget the naming difference where one always had it and the other was a lottery.

the CX6 i have was released after the C1 so that also a bit different could be an evo panel not that i like that if the old ones have no tint what was the difference 50 nits? i don't even use HDR...

cesar73

8th January 2023, 11:08

Hello,

I am trying to find a good setting for madvr HDR tone mapping with pixel shader. I am using latest madvrhdrmeasure version 165.
I have a LG Oled G1 EVO screen.

Can someone with a recent LG OLED model share his madvr tone mapping settings ?

ashlar42

23rd January 2023, 23:38

I'm having a strange problem with the Prime Video app on my C1. Whenever I try to access the subtitles menu, from a video playing, the app closes down. Thus, I cannot change language or style for subs.

Already tried to uninstall, turn off tv (power cord detached for several minute), turning it back on and reinstalling the app. No results.

I'm on software version 03.34.55.

Magik Mark

25th January 2023, 11:47

Guys

Does the LHR version of GPU works well?

huhn

26th January 2023, 18:57

last time i checked madVR doesn't have a crypto miner embedded so yes.

SamuriHL

26th January 2023, 19:07

last time i checked madVR doesn't have a crypto miner embedded so yes.

Maybe he should so we can get some new features. :D joking...mostly.

ashlar42

3rd February 2023, 02:27

huhn

3rd February 2023, 08:49

a normal cable can not blend a frame the AVR has to do that and is ignoring passthrough.

Klaus1189

6th February 2023, 19:24

I never had a DENON AVR, but according to manual:
https://assets.denon.com/DocumentMaster/ENG/AVC-X3800HE2EA_ENG_PDF_IM.pdf

"pass through" is not what you want is this issue, you want "bypass"

Page 167: HDMI Pass Through
Selects how this unit will transmit HDMI signals to the HDMI output in standby power mode.

On: Transmits the selected HDMI input through this unit’s HDMI output when this unit is in standby power mode.

Off (Default): No HDMI signals are transmitted through
this unit’s HDMI output in standby power mode.

Page 172: Video Mode
Configure the video processing method to match the type of video content.
Auto (Default): Process video automatically based on
the HDMI content information.

Game: Always process video for game content. Minimize the video delay when the video is delayed compared to the button
operations on the controller of the game console.

Movie: Perform image processing that is suitable for contents other than games.

Bypass: Remove all video processing from the HDMI video path.

ashlar42

1st March 2023, 12:46

I am having a strange problem with a Denon X3800H receiver. I connect a PC (Ultra High Speed HDMI certified cable, tried two different ones) to the receiver, the receiver to my LG C1 OLED TV with another HDMI cable (high quality as well). When I play video, it's like the picture has a slightly delayed ghost to it. If I connect the PC directly to the TV, the picture is perfect. HDMI is set as passthrough on the receiver but it makes no difference. Video card is a Nvidia RTX 3070.

Picture with "ghosting" through the receiver:

https://i.postimg.cc/YLNvL9TM/PXL-20230203-012135452.jpg (https://postimg.cc/YLNvL9TM)

Perfect picture straight to the TV:

https://i.postimg.cc/vgF2tY0c/PXL-20230203-013611120.jpg (https://postimg.cc/vgF2tY0c)

(sorry for not managing to shoot the same exact frame but the difference is quite visibile anyway)

As mentioned I have tried with different cables already. All perfect straight to the TV, all with ghosting through the receiver.
Don't know how to solve this but I now know what actually happens. madVR switches to 23.976 (or 24.000, I've seen this behavior on both refreshes), the TV (HDMI hidden menu, green button pushed 8 times) briefly locks to a 120Hz signal, then blanks, then picture comes up. madVR states that the display is at 23.976Hz but the TV is instead still outputting 120Hz (HDMI hidden menu, etc.).

I fear this could only be solved through a Dr. HDMI (https://hdfury.com/product/dr-hdmi-8k/) or something similar...

huhn

1st March 2023, 22:21

just use 120.

ashlar42

2nd March 2023, 01:06

just use 120.
That makes TrueMotion "Cinematic Movement" ineffective. And I prefer to have it active... shame on me :D

purplebaby

2nd March 2023, 17:35

I'm just wondering what the best settings are for madvr, from a quality perspective, for use with 2160p (often HDR) material. Using a 3060 Ti + LG CX via HDMI. Scaling algorithms etc? Are they in use for 2160p material on a 2160p display?

chros

3rd March 2023, 16:26

Follow the madvr link in my signature.

QBhd

4th March 2023, 19:58

What about beta version 166?

QB

ashlar42

6th March 2023, 23:55

Follow the madvr link in my signature.Hi Chros, could you be so kind as to update the HDR settings to the latest beta in the screenshot you publish in that link? Thanks in advance.

mataus

13th April 2023, 16:05

Hi,

I have finally got hold of a decent graphics card, and I'm playing around with MadVR, practising on my LG OLED prior to getting my Sony projector. I have done a lot of research and I would just like to confirm something.

I select 'MadVR tone mapping using pixel shaders' I do not have Windows 11 in HDR mode. I also do not tick the box 'send HDR metadata to display'.

I read on a lot of forums that if I did tick this box then the HDR flag will be displayed in the top right corner, which it does. However, the consensus is that this will result in the LG display tonemapping the already tonemapped data that MadVR has processed.

So my question is should I refrain from switching the LG OLED in to HDR mode and let MadVR tonemap the HDR metadata whilst the LG display remains in SDR mode?

quietvoid

14th April 2023, 13:29

The answer depends on whether you want to playback in HDR or not.
If you tone map to low brightness then it's fine to leave it in SDR, otherwise it would be inaccurate.

There are many ways to avoid the TV double tone-mapping, it depends on the model.
Since 2019 you can change the tone map curves to clip instead of rolling off.

Magik Mark

5th May 2023, 02:40

Just got RTX 3080 FE as a replacement for my 2060, I noticed flickering is happening a lot. Its like changing refresh rate. My 2060 does this once or twice once you booted the system

Is there a tweak u can suggest to minimize flickering?

Goeggel

19th May 2023, 21:37

I have an issue with stuttering on 4K HDR MKVs with RTX 3080, Marantz SR-6011 and LG OLED65B8. 1080p SDR MKVs are fine. Latest madVR, LAV filters and Nvidia 531.79. Win 10 22H2. Zoom Player and MPC-BE.

Every half a minute or couple of minutes, the picture stumbles / stutters / jumps a few frames. Sound is fine. madVR display info doesn't show any frame drops. The issue is random and and always occurs at different time stamps.

With the same setup and a GTX 980, SDR and HDR were fine. Then I changed to a RTX 2070 Super. At first everything was fine. Then with around Nvidia 512.x and/or a Windows update, SDR and HDR were constantly stuttering. This was solved by:
- Vertical Sync to 'On' for the media player exe.
- In the madVR settings, uncheck 'enable automatic fullscreen exclusive mode
- In the madVR settings, how many video frames shall be presented in advance' to 1

Now with the RTX 3080, what else can I try to solve this stuttering with HDR MKVs?

Magik Mark

5th June 2023, 11:43

Goeggel

1. Have u tried using DDU first before installing new driver?
2. Try clearing Windows cache with "BleachBit" and the built in Cleaner
3. Use certified HDMI 2.1 Cable
4. Try PotPlayer

strumf666

15th June 2023, 04:30

Any owners of a g3 and 6900xt here? I am having a problem with hdr... madvr apparently can't switch to hdr mode for some reason after changing my tv; it did with the old one. I am using win11 (HDR off in display settings), mpc-be, lav filters, xysub, and madvr. I tested with MPC video renderer and it switched to HDR as expected.

huhn

15th June 2023, 11:38

win 11 and madVR on AMD yeah... the pain it comes back.

you need the newest beta that fixes a bug for the device page it may just think it can't do HDR.

well you are using AMD and to make the AMD HDR API happy you need to make sure that you are sending 10 bit in d3d11 on a fullscreen surface (windowed fullscreen is fine too).

strumf666

15th June 2023, 13:44

Newest beta drivers you mean? I am running 23.5.2; I had to disable 10bit pixel format (in amd drivers) in order for the windows display settings to detect the HDR capability of the LG, which is weird, because with the sony it worked regardless.
MadVR reports AMD HDR mode, but it cleary doesn't put the TV in HDR mode, except on some random occasions when I move the mouse to the bottom and the player ui appears.

huhn

15th June 2023, 14:26

madVR beta.

strumf666

15th June 2023, 18:38

I am using madVRhdrMeasure166, or is there something more recent?

Klaus1189

15th June 2023, 19:10

Why not use latest stable for HDR passthrough?

strumf666

15th June 2023, 20:50

I suppose I could retest, but I switched to the beta ~3years ago because stable version didn't switch to HDR properly with my setup.

huhn

15th June 2023, 21:36

you need one of the newest beta to stop the win 11 bug.

strumf666

15th June 2023, 22:12

I am using madVRhdrMeasure166, or is there something more recent?

you need one of the newest beta to stop the win 11 bug.
Am I using the correct version?

huhn

15th June 2023, 23:24

how should i know if it is 3 years old no.
the newest version that has a win 11 fix is not even 6 month old here.
https://www.videohelp.com/software/madVR
should be the beta from here.
it will stop working in a couple months... so that's that.

strumf666

15th June 2023, 23:39

Ok, this is the same version I am currently using.

huhn

16th June 2023, 00:30

so you installed the beta version of that page over your current 92 version 3 years ago even through it is not even 6 months old?

strumf666

16th June 2023, 00:47

No :) I started using madvr beta versions approx. 3 years ago, I upgrade when I get the expiry notification.

QBhd

16th June 2023, 23:53

ASBL has been a serious pain in the butt for years on my C8, however I never wanted to risk the warranty since I paid for an extended package and could actually get a store credit for that amount ($380 CDN) if I never use it. Major selling point for the store I bought it from since it was still the cheapest place to buy the TV (BestBuy was the same price). It has now been 4 years and I have cashed in that credit (My brother bought an $800 AVR for $420!!). So, it was finally time to try and turn that ASBL off! I have no service remote, and all the apps I could find for my Android phone (with IR blaster) were behind a paywall... argh! But I stumbled upon a way to get IN-START sent to the TV for free!

After trying to edit existing free remote buttons to send the IN-START command and banging up against walls, I downloaded irplus - Infrared Remote from the Play store and discovered that it used WINLIRC_NEC1 codes! I had found a site with all kinds of codes and remotes to access the service menu, and one of the sections was LIRC/WINLIRC, so I loaded up some generic LG "Full TV Remote" picked the "1" button and edited it to the IN-START code instead of 1... and boom it worked!

Here is the WINLIRC_NEC1 code that sends IN-START to the TV: 0x20DF 0xDF20

One nice thing about this way of doing it, there is zero chance of hitting IN-STOP since the remote doesn't even have it on it :)

Anyway, I just thought I would share for anyone looking to do this totally for free.

QB