MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[ashlar42]

Yeah, only PC mode displays 4.4.4 (check here and download the image and open in paint3d to test - https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1673852&postcount=25082 )Ok, I have checked and you're right.

Does this matter for video playback? Isn't all video content available encoded at 4:2:0? Is gaming your worry or is madVR affected somehow?

[oldpainlesskodi]

I don't game, my rig is mainly a HTPC. Does it matter for video playback via MadVR? - that's down to the eye of the beholder I guess, but MadVR does an upscale and conversion from 4.2.0 to 4.4.4.

For me, I notice a difference, even at normal viewing distance - even did a blind test with the wife, and she picked up on it. But, YMMV.

[ashlar42]

I don't game, my rig is mainly a HTPC. Does it matter for video playback via MadVR? - that's down to the eye of the beholder I guess, but MadVR does an upscale and conversion from 4.2.0 to 4.4.4.Ok, so it's a matter of adding stuff to the source (which might be eye pleasing not saying the opposite) more than risking to lose info.

For me, I notice a difference, even at normal viewing distance - even did a blind test with the wife, and she picked up on it. But, YMMV.
With normal content or patterns?

[oldpainlesskodi]

TV shows and Movies, but like I said, let YOUR eyes be the judge.

[ashlar42]

TV shows and Movies, but like I said, let YOUR eyes be the judge.
Sure. I was just curious. Hats off on the above, I'm pretty sure I would be unable to tell the difference.

I'm much more sensitive to movement imperfections.

[QBhd]

LOL... we all have our own deal breakers... I personally don't like the jitter of OLED and as such I use TruMotion with a 2/0 setting. Another for me is banding in HDR, so I do NOT use PC mode. I hate not having 4:4:4, but the other two are literally deal breakers for me.

QB

[huhn]

these screen should be burned for the terrible coating.
even the much better CR on these display levees me cold compared to a static 5 K CR display is it better no question but whatever.

the test ufo is just an work of art on these displays while it is not the sharpest it has zero over drive or other issues it's absolutely clean i may even say better than CRT.
the screen uniformity is is also unmatched.

[chros]

Anyone with newer models (2020/2021) feel free to test these (can be done in 1 hour), thanks.

A. Prereq:
- for near black testing scenarios use pitch black room and let the display warm up for at least 10-20 minutes beforehand
- presets on TV: use Filmmaker/HDR10 Cinema (not home) for HDR10, and Cinema (not home) for DoVi
- - reset the used preset, disable all unnecessary processing, leave brightness/contrast/oled light at their preset defaults, set D65 color temp (if it's not set) and adjust black level to your settings (low/high)
- for HDR10 use PC mode (chroma 4:4:4)
- - during testing pause playback, and switch between normal and PC mode to see differences
- PC output for HDR10: RGB Full 10/12bit output in nvidia panel + madvr set to 10bit or higher (@24/25/120Hz)
- - use passthrough in madvr for HDR10
- with DoVi test: you can switch between TV-led or player-led of you have an Oppo (needs a restart, more info (https://www.avforums.com/threads/the-ultimate-oppo-media-device.2207229/post-28293127))
- - you can also use Plex app and plex server on PC to play DoVi files back on the TV, or via USB, or any capable external devices (but all of these can behave differently!)
- - I don't have chroma 4:4:4 with DoVi with my B8, not even in player-led via Oppo, but it triggers the usual PC-mode issues here!


B. HDR10 in PC mode (chroma 4:4:4)
1. what about banding in HDR10 PC mode? test it with Mehanik's HDR10 test patterns (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/hdr10-test-patterns-set.2943380/) ("03. Grayscale\02. Ramps\01. Diagonal Ramp 400nit.mp4")
2. near black posterization in PC mode? (last part of this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1883108#post1883108) for sample and description)
3. black clipping in PC mode? (use "01. Black level\01. black-level-v1.mp4" from Mehanik's HDR10 test patterns)
4. bt2020 color processing issues? (more info (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1925528#post1925528), you need Netflix for this test to be able compare it.)

C. DoVi
1. does DoVi have raised black and still crush near black at the same time? use Stacy's profile8 single track version (https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=18984135&postcount=928) (original profile7 dual track version (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/spears-munsil-uhd-hdr-benchmark-disc-discussion.3075780/page-43#post-59634582)), (or alternatively DoVi samples from here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1931241#post1931241)), more info (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1932220#post1932220)
- look for elevated black level (there's no true black on 2018 models with DoVi!)
- look for "glowing" black: if that's the case then the underlying 1dlut is responsible for this

D. A possible answer:
- B1: "Not much difference between normal and PC mode, PC mode shows a bit more banding"
- B2: "I haven't noticed much issues, except for @03:25 part that has posterization in PC mode"
- B3: "all blinking above 64 in PC mode"
- B4: "I don't have Netflix" or "I don't see any difference" or "hdr10 looks green/way worse"
- C1: "Using USB + internal player: there's no true black (the whole thing is elevated) with this pattern, >=72 are blinking, plus there's "glowing" in the middle of the screen"

[ashlar42]

Another for me is banding in HDR, so I do NOT use PC mode. I hate not having 4:4:4, but the other two are literally deal breakers for me.


B. HDR10 in PC mode (chroma 4:4:4)[/U][/B]
1. banding should be largely reduced in HDR10 PC mode, test it with Mehanik's HDR10 test patterns (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/hdr10-test-patterns-set.2943380/) (03. Grayscale\02. Ramps\01. Diagonal Ramp 400nit.mp4)

Since the above two quotes seem stating opposite things... is this because what QBhd states applies to older panels and there's hope things got better with newer panels?

[chros]

Since the above two quotes seem stating opposite things... is this because what QBhd states applies to older panels and there's hope things got better with newer panels?

That's correct, I copied it from an older post, sorry :) Yes, I/we have 2018 models, that's what I compared to. (Just edited the post.)

[chros]

Added B.3. small test, on our 2018 models only >=76 are visible.

[oldpainlesskodi]

@ Chros:

Might just be my eyes, but I see none of the issues described for b1,2,3, well, not that jumps out at me anyway.

I can't comment on C as I don't have any DV content.

MadVR straight passthrough set at 10bit, and full range chain, with the GPU set at 10bit, panel in PC mode.

[chros]

Thanks, but this is not useful :) Have you used the mentioned samples? Because you have to! :) Do it in a pitch black room and switch between normal and PC mode with hdr10.
About DoVi: yes, you do have at least one :) Copy it to a pendrive and play it back with the internal player of the TV if you don't have any other device. (I added more description for DoVi test.)

A possible acceptable answer could be:
B1: "Not much difference between normal and PC mode, PC mode shows a bit more banding"
B2: "I haven't noticed much issues, except for @03:25 part that has posterization in PC mode"
B3: "all blinking above 64 in PC mode"
C1: "Using USB + internal player: there's no true black (the whole thing is elevated) with this pattern, >=72 are blinking, plus there's "glowing" in the middle of the screen"

[oldpainlesskodi]

Ok, will check again and come back, at some stage.

And, yes, I used all the samples you provided/pointed to.

Huhn - I feel your pain..

[huhn]

if it could be downloaded in a sense able time i would be done already i mean this mega link takes hours to prepare a download...
i could upload this faster.

[nevcairiel]

The mega link for B.2? Thats downloading quite reasonably for me. I'll try to run the tests the next few days. Although my room is never super pitch black, but i'll try to remember to do it at night :D

[huhn]

the mega things prepares at 600 kbit i have no clue how fast it will be when it is done. my internet has no influence on this.

[QBhd]

Wow... 5200+ hours on my C8... I watch far too much TV :P

QB

[chros]

Added B.4. test for color processing issue (hopefully the last one). This is also a mega link (but not that big) :) If you downloaded the required samples, and you have better alternative server (that stores the files for years) then link it and I'll add to those posts as backup links.

Although my room is never super pitch black, but i'll try to remember to do it at night :D
Yep, you have to do B2 and C1 in a pitch black room (during the night, blinds down, no lights), otherwise you won't see crap, those are so low light samples :)

Wow... 5200+ hours on my C8... I watch far too much TV :P
I will check mine, but I think it's around 7000 :) The usage hours are ~doubled since the sh1t hit the fan more than a year ago ...

[ashlar42]

So, I have calibrated my 77C1 with ColourSpace. At video levels (16-255), as suggested. I have madVR at limited, GPU full, TV limited.

When I pause a video, it’s like madVR switches to full levels (0-255). When I resume playback, levels return to normal (limited) in around a second (I haven’t timed it).

Is this normal behaviour?

[chros]

No, not for the old driver behaviour. Is this with hdr10 or sdr?

[ashlar42]

No, not for the old driver behaviour. Is this with hdr10 or sdr?
SDR. What do you mean by “old driver behaviour“?

[chros]

I thought you meant hdr10, where nvidia changed the way it works in windowed/fullscreen. So I don't think it's right with sdr, but other users have to check who has the new driver.
But since your GPU is at full, maybe it's a madvr fault? which version do you use?
I can try it out later/tomorrow once more with sdr. (I use full chain with sdr, but limited/full/limited with hdr10 and I don't have this problem.)

[ashlar42]

It’s Kodi DS Player, for whatever reason. In MPC-HC it doesn’t happen.

[chros]

Oh, I see, I don't use kodi, maybe someone else.

[huhn]

- - reset the used preset, disable all unnecessary processing, leave brightness/contrast/oled light at their preset defaults, set D65 color temp (if it's not set) and adjust black level to your settings (low/high)
- for HDR10 use PC mode (chroma 4:4:4)

what's the point of this why do i need to use a setting with avg DE of 10?

there a 4 files:
- banding: e.g. red light of torches around @03:20
- added noise: @00:32, around @01:16
- posterisation: clouds in dark scenes, @03:20, @03:25, etc.
which file at what time?
i mean the banding file is mostlikely for the banding test and there is absolutely no difference between 3.20 on PC mode or not it's looking fake on both but on the other hand there are no torches so...

[chros]

what's the point of this why do i need to use a setting with avg DE of 10?
Because the whole HDR10 part of the test is about PC mode.

there a 4 files: which file at what time?
Good point, this one: 01-2160p_23fps_hdr0686-thgm_banding.mkv (I edited the old post as well). Times are specified in the old post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1883108#post1883108).

i mean the banding file is mostlikely for the banding test and there is absolutely no difference between 3.20 on PC mode or not it's looking fake on both but on the other hand there are no torches so...
Torches are the red lights attached to the guns. Check out e.g. @03:25 when soldiers just arrived at the bottom of the building, wall in the background, there's a statue: here the background looks like an oil painting in PC mode :)

[huhn]

sorry i don't get the expected result.
it always looks fake not like banding but red is missing compared to tone mapping. the statue is at 3.32 at least on my PC.
is a generally noisy image that misses the red light effect.

HDR on my OLED looks just generally worse than SDR even with stock tone mapping something i'm not used too and i only know for comparsion a dim 600 nit 100% white LCD with 5.7 K CR.

my current assumption is that i get the bad result outside of PC mode too but i can't say that the result is banding...

[flaviowolff]

Has anyone been able to compare the new trumotion "cinematic movement" preset with Madvr's smooth motion?

[ashlar42]

Has anyone been able to compare the new trumotion "cinematic movement" preset with Madvr's smooth motion?
If you have specific source material for me to check, I'd gladly do a test for you.

[chros]

There's a new method (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-oled-c8-owners-and-discussion.2162797/post-29598721) to downgrade LG firmware even on newer (v5.x.x? ) firmwares in which LG disabled that possibility for the average user. Works on 2018 models and many more, also aiopylgtv can be used to trigger it.

So, just keep every old firmware, LG can break anything anytime easily :)

[ashlar42]

There's a new method (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-oled-c8-owners-and-discussion.2162797/post-29598721) to downgrade LG firmware even on newer (v5.x.x? ) firmwares in which LG disabled that possibility for the average user. Works on 2018 models and many more, also aiopylgtv can be used to trigger it.

So, just keep every old firmware, LG can break anything anytime easily :)
Instructions on Russian websites... does this apply to the 2021 models?

[chros]

Instructions on Russian websites...
And in that post as well :)

does this apply to the 2021 models?
Probably, but with 2018 models this method is only required from v5.x.x, versions before we can use the SURE app method (also added info about it in that post) that also accepts USB and NSU versions.

[aron7awol]

I know you guys have a good amount of knowledge on 3dluts, so I'm asking this here...

I do not use a 3dlut currently on my OLED. What I would like to do is "emulate" Rec.709 color gamut with a 3dlut without tone-mapping to SDR. In other words, I'd like to watch HDR content, and toggle a 3dlut on/off with madVR, which simply reduces the color gamut to Rec.709, so that toggling it on/off shows the difference of WCG without changing anything else.

Do you know of a simple way to do this?

[huhn]

the current madVR version can't load a PQ to PQ with no tone mapping LUT so no not possible.

bt 2020 gamut to bt 709 is tone mapping so your request is kinda tough.

with tone mapping this would be trivial with nvidia.

[quietvoid]

You can just set madVR to map down to 709 while keeping the output HDR, that should work fine.
Not sure if madVR would still send it within a 2020 signal though.

[huhn]

the TV still thinks the signal is bt 2020 that way and it will now oversat.

except there is a new setting i don't know of.

[aron7awol]

I initially thought it might be possible by creating a 3DLUT something like below. But I'm not sure if it's possible to do something like that while still outputting in PQ/HDR.

https://i.imgur.com/sPpmf0P.png

[aron7awol]

I wouldn't be opposed to tone-mapping at the same time, as long as I'm able to toggle between two profiles/settings/3dlut where the only thing that changes is the gamut. Are you saying it would be possible if I tone-mapped to SDR BT2020 and then toggled a 3dlut to map to Rec709 within BT2020 primaries?

[quietvoid]

the TV still thinks the signal is bt 2020 that way and it will now oversat.

except there is a new setting i don't know of.
Usually there shouldn't be a problem with sending 709 within 2020 primaries container.
There are a couple threads on the color accuracy on AVS of the method but I don't really remember the details.

The only thing is to figure out if that's what madVR defaults to, or if the 2020 flag still needs to be enabled (NVIDIA).


I wouldn't be opposed to tone-mapping at the same time, as long as I'm able to toggle between two profiles/settings/3dlut where the only thing that changes is the gamut. Are you saying it would be possible if I tone-mapped to SDR BT2020 and then toggled a 3dlut to map to Rec709 within BT2020 primaries?I would assume the 3D LUT would either clip or do a slightly dumber mapping down to 709, so I'd avoid it.

You also don't need to tonemap to SDR, just tonemap in HDR space, but map down the colors only (the calibration config section).

[aron7awol]

Usually there shouldn't be a problem with sending 709 within 2020 primaries container.
There are a couple threads on the color accuracy on AVS of the method but I don't really remember the details.

The only thing is to figure out if that's what madVR defaults to, or if the 2020 flag still needs to be enabled (NVIDIA).


I would assume the 3D LUT would either clip or do a slightly dumber mapping down to 709, so I'd avoid it.

You also don't need to tonemap to SDR, just tonemap in HDR space, but map down the colors only (the calibration config section).
So, if I'm following what you're saying, you are saying to tell madVR the display is already calibrated to BT.709, but still output video in HDR format? Doesn't madVR ignore that calibration section when outputting in HDR format, and it only applies with SDR output?

[quietvoid]

So, if I'm following what you're saying, you are saying to tell madVR the display is already calibrated to BT.709, but still output video in HDR format? Doesn't madVR ignore that calibration section when outputting in HDR format, and it only applies with SDR output?

I haven't tried so I don't know yet :D
I see no reason why HDR output would be limited to WCG, at least I've used DCI-P3 instead of 2020 in the past.

[chros]

I initially thought it might be possible by creating a 3DLUT something like below. But I'm not sure if it's possible to do something like that while still outputting in PQ/HDR.

https://i.imgur.com/sPpmf0P.png
This should work! Just set gamma 2.2 instead of unmodified at "Tone curve", and you may even have to geneate a bt709 gamma 2.2 icm (not sure what the default gamma is). (madvr requires gamma 2.2 at 3dlut input, even with hdr10 output.)
You can create another one for DCI-P3 and switch between profiles. You can even measure primaries (around SDR nits range) to make them more "accurate". All this with hdr output.
When you do this, remove the factory 3dlut of the preset in the TV by uploading unity 3dlut. (Obviously you have to put this generated 3dlut into the bt2020 slot in madvr).
Btw, why is this interesting for you?

[aron7awol]

Btw, why is this interesting for you?
There is always debate in the PJ world about whether using a color filter is worth it to lose light in the process of increasing from something like 93% of P3 to 100% of P3. A conversation about that extended to someone saying that to them, the difference between 709 and P3 isn't all that noticeable. I disagreed with that, saying I feel like I can easily tell when there is WCG usage, but I've also never been able to toggle it on/off to actually see the differences on the fly on real scenes on the same exact display. I also feel like I could tell major differences in gamut coverage going from a Samsung KS8000 (with good coverage) to a Sony X900F (with poorer coverage), and then to my LG CX (with good coverage again).

Ideally, I'd be able to also toggle between full P3 and 90% P3 to test that particular comparison, but I figured comparing 709 vs P3 would be easier to set up. It still isn't as easy as I initially hoped. :)

[quietvoid]

I just tried it out and HDR output is indeed overriding the 709.

I guess the next easiest solution is to reencode your content down to 709.
At this point the LUT is probably simpler though.

[aron7awol]

I guess the next easiest solution is to reencode your content down to 709.
Is there an easy way you know of to reencode with a simple gamut clip to 709 while leaving everything else alone?

[quietvoid]

Is there an easy way you know of to reencode with a simple gamut clip to 709 while leaving everything else alone?

Not really, it's usually a couple software to setup. So without prior experience this isn't as simple.


I had the idea of trying with mpv and it seems to be a possible solution.
My setup was like this:
mpv.conf
target-peak=10000
d3d11-output-csp=pq
d3d11-output-format=rgb10_a2
tone-mapping=clip
profile=gpu-hq
gpu-api=d3d11
target-prim=bt.2020
target-trc=pq
format=default:colormatrix=bt.2020-ncl
video-output-levels=full
dither-depth=10
fullscreen=yes

input.conf
F3 no-osd cycle-values target-prim "bt.2020" "bt.709"

With this, I toggled between the primaries with F3 and saw noticeable desaturation for WCG red, at least.
However it seems to oversaturate most of the other colors..

[chros]

I created 2 PR for aiopylgtv (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv):
- Add support for dictionary via JSON in cmd line params (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/pull/34)
- Add support for setting PC mode for an HDMI input (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/pull/35)

Especially the second is really amazing, no need to click around and wait to switch between PC and non-PC mode! Although it takes a second or so, just like when switching into/out from Game preset.

I also created a basic version of it (without calibration related features) for command line usage (that runs only 1 function at a time), the reason was: it's faster about 1-2 seconds (due to it doesn't have to trigger that many request after connecting).
If someone is interested I can publish it properly, but here it is until then: bscpylgtv v0.1.0 (https://github.com/chros73/bscpylgtv):
- looks for the same ".aiopylgtv.sqlite" key config
- how to install it on Windows (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1946491#post1946491)

You can actually modify the greyed out settings as well, e.g. colorGamut in PC mode!

Examples:

bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 info_button
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 set_current_picture_mode expert2
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 set_current_picture_settings "{\"backlight\": 0, \"contrast\": 85}"
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 set_current_picture_settings "{\"hdrDynamicToneMapping\": \"on\"}"
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 set_current_picture_settings "{\"colorGamut\": \"auto\"}"
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 set_pc_mode true hdmi2
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 launch_app_with_params com.webos.app.softwareupdate "{\"mode\": \"user\", \"flagUpdate\": true}"
bscpylgtvcommand 192.168.1.18 power_off

[chros]

I've updated one of the PR and bscpylgtv (link is updated as well to v0.0.2) to only apply PC mode to the selected HDMI input.

[aron7awol]

Not really, it's usually a couple software to setup. So without prior experience this isn't as simple.


I had the idea of trying with mpv and it seems to be a possible solution.
My setup was like this:
mpv.conf

input.conf


With this, I toggled between the primaries with F3 and saw noticeable desaturation for WCG red, at least.
However it seems to oversaturate most of the other colors..
I have no problem working with ffmpeg or any other encoding tools. I'm just not sure which is capable of remapping gamuts.

I generated a 3dlut with bt2020 source and rec709 2.2 target, and it seemed to work somewhat, but with the 3dlut enabled everything was oversaturated. That sounds similar to your result with mpv.