MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[aron7awol]

There is a very real possibility that the content you're looking at is BADLY graded at the source. I would not discount that. D+ shows are notorious for being all over the place in terms of quality. I watch them in Dolby Vision which isn't always better.
I always chalked it up to a bad source, but over time noticed that either a whole bunch of content I was watching was really badly graded, or my TV was messing it up. And it turns out that it looks perfectly fine on other displays, and I think looking at the near black quantization patterns reveals that my TV (all of our TVs?) is in fact messing it up, and the problem isn't the source. I don't want it to be true, but it's the sad truth I have come to accept.

[chros]

Well damn, I found this old post by @chros in 2019 saying you can't use external 3DLUT for HDR output with madVR
That's an old post, you can use 3dlut with Hdr10 now, we talked about this with jk82 in this thread half a year ago or so,that's how I use it on the B8.
I think what you see is posterization, but removing the internal bt2020 3dlut in the TV won't correct this. Is it with Hdr10? If so, take a look at the Dovi version and see if the issue exists.
Edit: from here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1946716#post1946716) (2 pages), my final settings: I only use absolute rendering now, and I don't set any saturation in madvr.

[aron7awol]

I agree that it is posterization, and I guess it makes sense that there is no calibration fix if the TV is making rounding errors it will still do that regardless of how we calibrate it. I just don't understand why LG hasn't completely fixed this by now. Why are they totally overlooking this? Maybe they just don't care about the pitch black room use case, but it's so distracting, occurs in a TON of content, and these are the scenes that an OLED really should be excelling at. Does it just not bother you guys as much as it bothers me?

Yes, it is with HDR10 and I haven't tried DV, but it occurs in plenty of DV sources as well.

Thank you for the HDR 3DLUT info. I really appreciate it.

[Kuler087]

@quietvoid

Did you check if you're getting the 600 or 1000nits trim pass on your C2 ?

C2 77'' finally available at the local stores here, can't wait! not sure if I'll get the G2 65" or C2 77"

[quietvoid]

@quietvoid

Did you check if you're getting the 600 or 1000nits trim pass on your C2 ?

C2 77'' finally available at the local stores here, can't wait! not sure if I'll get the G2 65" or C2 77"

I posted the EDID on AVS: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/page-225#post-61720366

I haven't tested how it actually behaves, though.
I'm assuming with external inputs (LLDV), it would be closer to the 1000 nits trim.

Internally, it would depend on the Dolby Vision config in the TV.
I don't have an LLDV (at least I think) capable device to test this out, but I could try the internal player.

[chros]

AV1 files playback properly in SDR and HDR with film grain synthesis.
...
So there doesn't seem to be an improvement in black levels with Dolby Vision for both internal/external sources.
External = down to 73, internal = down to 66. Both are very, slightly raised black floor, it may or may not be better than the C8.
Thanks for checking this, so jk82 checked it from internal source, sadly no change with external one :(

So, I just cancelled my half priced G2, I hope I get the money back :) SDR will be useless for me, DoVi has the same issues, maybe "only" HDR10 is better in PC mode, so there's no point for me ...
Let me know later, if/when LGE fixes these :)

Does that scene in Boba Fett look normal for you guys on your setups?
...
Tonight I'll see if PC mode makes it better or worse.
So, how was PC mode?

I agree that it is posterization
... but it's so distracting, occurs in a TON of content, and these are the scenes that an OLED really should be excelling at. Does it just not bother you guys as much as it bothers me?

Yes, it is with HDR10 and I haven't tried DV, but it occurs in plenty of DV sources as well.
I haven't noticed anything like this on B8 in HDR10 non-PC mode, but there's nothing to compare with :)
That show is in DoVi, so if you say it's there with the DoVi version or point out other show then I can check it (again with no reference :) ).

[aron7awol]

So, how was PC mode?

I got frustrated and gave up on my CX. I unmounted it yesterday, and my friend is buying it from me for cheap. I'm 99% sure I tested PC mode a year or so ago and it wasn't any better, and may have even been worse.

I haven't noticed anything like this on B8 in HDR10 non-PC mode, but there's nothing to compare with :)
That show is in DoVi, so if you say it's there with the DoVi version or point out other show then I can check it (again with no reference :) ).
My friend who is similarly aggravated with posterization and feels like it ruins his dark room experience just tested that same scene from Boba Fett in DV (on his Vizio OLED, not LG) and says it's similar to what I showed him on my CX yesterday before he helped me unmount it.

IMO it seems worth you at least testing that scene on yours in either HDR10 or DV or both. Even without a reference, I feel like if you post a photo or two on here it will tell us enough to know whether it's similar to my CX or my friend's C7 or a C2/G2.

[aron7awol]

This post is kind of coming out of left field considering I just got rid of my CX, but I was just starting to look at DPL, DTN, avgHL ceiling settings again, and figured I'd share that I was really liking DPL 1100, DTN 72, and avgHL ceiling 3x on my CX. This combination was found using Batman v Superman and The Meg to find the right balance between highlight detail and beneficial clipping on 4000 nit content. Obviously it wasn't doing anything on 1000 nit content. Also, after testing lum methods again I definitely feel like max is best on OLEDs personally.

[Kuler087]

I just finished installing my C2 77" and ran quickly some patterns. 5% gray uniformity test: I can see the middle of the screen is darker. Will I notice that in real content viewing?
Surprisingly I did not notice any raised black in DV/HDR10/SDR but all the modes were crushed at 70/72 (ootb) while on the C8(calibrated) I only see raised/crushed black in DV.

No dead pixel, yeah!
So far the biggest upgrade is going from 65 to 77", oh man that thing is HUGE. I also really like that the DV logo is no longer bright white, that was quite annoying.
I'm curious to see my C8/C2 side by side though.

[Kuler087]

Updated the firmware...

Now HDR10/DV/SDR are no longer crushed but indeed now there is a glow in DV/SDR :(

I checked side by side the SM clip and HDR10 looks almost exactly the same on both TVs but in DV, the C2 is a lot more saturated with red/yellow/orange colors. Really a night and day difference when you look at them side by side.
Overall brightness looks pretty much the same except that the small highlights are clearly brighter on the C2.

I tried to take pictures with my phone:

C8:
https://i.ibb.co/Qk6t7zY/C8.png

C2:
https://i.ibb.co/wgrZ7PC/C2.png

Eagle beak almost looks like LLDV on the C2:

C8:
https://i.ibb.co/vh3nHpG/C82.png

C2:
https://i.ibb.co/vPB5SLQ/C22.png

[quietvoid]

What player did you use for playback?
The C2 doesn't support proper profile 7 Dolby Vision playback, while the C8 does.

[Kuler087]

Sony x800m2
but I got the same difference using PLEX internal app (profile 8)

[quietvoid]

Right, thanks. I'm seeing the same.
It might be the graded trim passes difference I mentioned previously.

Not sure when I'll be able to test it out, hopefully soon.

[Kuler087]

that would be nice. thank you

[quietvoid]

I'm not exactly sure what's happening, but I do get very different images from the internal player vs. my FireTV Stick 4K.
It's hard to tell if the cause is the L2 trim passes (this was on the mountain + sun shot). I can't really tell the different trim samples apart.

I'll have to check out the eagle beak later..

Some samples: https://mega.nz/file/kItlgQ6Z#ZiKDpDyI1yLSJpb64k4Fw_D-cBRI3SduJNJiYxSv0mA
They all look the same to me, so maybe something else is going on.

[Kuler087]

I generated DV with your dovi_tool/madvr. The C2 still has very strong color saturation(even at warm 0) compared to the C8. So it can't be coming from the trims. But then, the eagle beak now looks the same. So that paler brighter yellow is coming from the trims.

I don't see any difference between plex internal app C2 and my x800m2. I'll check my Shield.

I don't have the camera nor the space those youtube reviewers have but FWIW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNJvh6PPI4
left = 65" C8 right = 77" C2
Obviously, the difference is amplified but it gives a good idea.

@SamuriHL
is it the same on your G2? TVs don't have to be side by side, the difference is quite obvious.


"cmv29_metadata": {
"num_ext_blocks": 3,
"ext_metadata_blocks": [
{
"Level1": {
"min_pq": 0,
"max_pq": 3481,
"avg_pq": 2803
}
},
{
"Level5": {
"active_area_left_offset": 0,
"active_area_right_offset": 0,
"active_area_top_offset": 0,
"active_area_bottom_offset": 0
}
},
{
"Level6": {
"max_display_mastering_luminance": 10000,
"min_display_mastering_luminance": 50,
"max_content_light_level": 10000,
"max_frame_average_light_level": 1676
}
}
]
},
"cmv40_metadata": {
"num_ext_blocks": 3,
"ext_metadata_blocks": [
{
"Level9": {
"length": 1,
"source_primary_index": 2
}
},
{
"Level11": {
"content_type": 1,
"whitepoint": 0,
"reference_mode_flag": true,
"reserved_byte2": 0,
"reserved_byte3": 0
}
},
{
"Level254": {
"dm_mode": 0,
"dm_version_index": 2
}
}
]
}
},
"rpu_data_crc32": 1589861294
}
Parsing RPU file...
Exporting metadata...
Done.
[{"dovi_profile":8



Some samples: https://mega.nz/file/kItlgQ6Z#ZiKDpDyI1yLSJpb64k4Fw_D-cBRI3SduJNJiYxSv0mA
They all look the same to me, so maybe something else is going on.
thanks
Plex internal:
600nits looks like the original on C8
1000nits on the C8 still has the brighter yellow but looks strange.

On the C2, both look the same just like the original.

Maybe a sample with L2 600nits set to 2048 and 1000nits to strong values ?
And another sample with L2 600nits strong values and 1000nits 2048 ?

[quietvoid]

If the C2 is just overall more saturated without any trims, then I guess the internal mapping engine just behaves differently..
Though you made the RPU CM v4.x, which only the C2 supports. It might trigger different processing, too.

There's no way to tell which is supposed to be correct..
FWIW I'm pretty sure the C2 is closer to madVR's saturation, since I remember the C8 being pretty different.

[aron7awol]

I think I found a way to override mastering metadata in madVR!

1. Set your default HDR profile to TM to a DPL which you want to use for the metadata override
2. Switch to your actual desired HDR profile with a different DPL using a hotkey (hotkey not required but makes the workflow convenient)

The original metadata should stick despite changing profiles. Finally, a way to make the OLED track the way we want while using any DPL setting we want, it just involves one manual step of hitting a hotkey each time.

[chros]

Isn't this a driver/madvr/tv issue? I think it worked on the B8 in the past for me, the 19th WB value should change in the TV. I can check it later.

[aron7awol]

I'd describe it as taking advantage of a bug in the latest madVR version (it exists in 159 and I don't know how far it goes back) where it doesn't re-send metadata when switching profiles, in order to achieve what we wanted. I suppose there could be something else in my system contributing.

[quietvoid]

I'm pretty sure I remember the metadata being sent (properly set) on the first signal only on my C8.
So it's not something new.

[aron7awol]

I didn't think it was new, because as I thought about what I experienced during some of my testing a while back, it would explain what I was seeing. But it's an easy enough way to achieve the metadata override that madshi has not wanted to add for whatever reason.

[SamuriHL]

SO glad I got the VRROOM's. LOL

[chros]

Guys, we just setup my 77G2 yesterday! :) (long story short, I tried to cancel it 2 weeks ago, it arrived 1 week ago, stiil waiting for the cancellation, yesterday I said f*ck it :))
This thing was sooo heavy, 35 kg without anything!!! I have been sweating a lot :)

[SamuriHL]

Lol nice. I think you'll more impressed with it than you believe.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

[chros]

We will see, I applied the Dovi 2pt WB hack to get proper black, and slowly break it in. One thing is for sure, it's big :)

[SamuriHL]

You get used to it. :) And by "used to it" I mean absolutely loving it. I have ZERO regrets going to 77".

[Asmodian]

77" WRGB or 65" QD-OLED? :confused:

[chros]

Good question, I won't buy Samsung, maybe Sony, but if ABLs can't be turned off then it would be a no go for me. Next year it should have 77" as well, I only wish LG would have a qd-oled lineup soon as well :)

[Kuler087]

The trick to get proper black doesnt work for me. I tried as low as -3.
Not even contrast 99 works (this worked on my C8). So far though, I did not notice raised black in real content. I noticed it all the time on my C8.

BTW, I just measured my C2 HDR10 mode, and it's very bright!!!


https://i.ibb.co/xhrMmwR/C2-luminance-ootb.png

[chros]

I had to reinstall Windows 10, otherwise the vga driver went bonkers, just as it happened 3 years ago when I changed the old LG to B8. Not sure why, maybe its a bug in 1809, or some other unknown driver left back. I tried cru, ddu, nothing helped, so I screwed up 1 day from my live for this, again :)
But at least now it works as it should. The TV reached 6 small pixel refresh, during 26 hours, so I can slowly start testing/experimenting with thing.

[chros]

I'd describe it as taking advantage of a bug in the latest madVR version (it exists in 159 and I don't know how far it goes back) where it doesn't re-send metadata when switching profiles, in order to achieve what we wanted. I suppose there could be something else in my system contributing.

I'm pretty sure I remember the metadata being sent (properly set) on the first signal only on my C8.
So it's not something new.

It worked fine back in the day with my B8, not sure when it was introduced, I reported this to madhsi (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-61791959).

The trick to get proper black doesnt work for me. I tried as low as -3.
Not even contrast 99 works (this worked on my C8). So far though, I did not notice raised black in real content. I noticed it all the time on my C8.

BTW, I just measured my C2 HDR10 mode, and it's very bright!!!
Yes, that's surprising! Who needs the G2 then?! :)
I watched DoVi content during the night and I haven't seen glowing black with the -1 settings (there were complete black screens couple of times), so that's weird that it doesn't work on the C2, although I haven't checked with patterns yet, probably soon I will.

Other stuff:
- uploading HDR10 EOTF params (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.3242257/post-61791966) seems to work with bscpylgtv
- - do we know what the "EOTF: 2" means on the 2nd screen of the HostDiag (https://github.com/chros73/bscpylgtv/blob/master/docs/scripts/lg-toggle-HostDiag.cmd) screen?
- wol is working as well (after enabling wifi standby):
- - wol.exe 75:E6:B9:A4:B7:A1 /d 192.168.1.255
- Simplink is better than how it was before on B8
- I haven't noticed HDMI handshake issue (no signal screen) yet that I had with B8, but I had to replace the HDMI cable from 0.9m to 1.5m so that could solve it
- we can toggle AI Picture pro in HDR10 PC mode as well (it's greyed out), but it doesn't seem to do anything
- - bscpylgtv ... set_current_picture_settings "{"ai_Picture": "on"}" aiPicture
- I applied the gamma 2.68 SDR 3dlut with the B8 to the madvr-G2 pair, so I can raise oled light (to 85, haven't measured it how many nits it means) and get HDR look with SDR content (obviously it's not the best approach, but it can do it until I get to calibration)

That's it for now

[chros]

AI Picture Pro is working in PC mode as well, I was wrong, although it has a very slight effect, darkening shadows.

[chros]

The trick to get proper black doesnt work for me. I tried as low as -3.
Not even contrast 99 works (this worked on my C8). So far though, I did not notice raised black in real content. I noticed it all the time on my C8.
Btw which player test files did you used for DoVi, was it the Shield with p8.1 by any chance? :)

[Kuler087]

Btw which player test files did you used for DoVi, was it the Shield with p8.1 by any chance? :)

nop, I used the plex internal tv app. Your G2 is pure black at -1 ? not glowing at all?

The test file I used is: ( no distracting flashing bars)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/100euaVEVUZI7rQ2gU7rWXkKBS3hdp4tM/view?usp=sharing

last night I noticed raised black for the first time in DV for Stranger things and Obi-wan. The only way I will notice it is if the picture stays completely black for more than 3 seconds. Anything shorter than that, my eyes can't adapt fast enough. This is in a perfect pitch-black room.

On the C8 I notice the raised black as soon as the screen is completely black, no need to wait 3 sec. It doesnt help that the left top/bottom corner seems to be brighter than the other side though.

[chros]

Yes, the Dovi hack works here fine and I tested lot of patterns and inputs (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/post-61805328). I didn't download yours yet, but I'll take a look at it.

[chros]

So, after watching various content in Hdr10 and PC mode: 2022 models are way better finally than 2018 were.
After checking the usual torture scenes, just as jk82 said last year already, there's no bt2020 3dlut processing issue (cyan/magenta bug), no posterization in near black content! Finally! :)
There is still minor banding (sending 12 bit RGB full range from PC) compared to normal mode, but I haven't noticed it from normal seating distance, so I don't care about it.
Hdr10 colors look less saturated compared to B8 (factory settings), so it's closer to what we could achieve with madvr 3dlut (that it was never correct).
Couple of shows need DTM and AIPP on the TV (eg The Expanse S01, that was upconverted from SDR by Amazon I guess) but they look great after that.
As I said it before, Hdr10 in PC mode is a bit darker compared to Normal mode (due to the smaller peak brightness, I guess), so it seems it undertacks EOTF a bit, so 2/22pt WB or 1dlut calibration is definitely needed.

Btw, how can we reboot the TV to see the WebOS logo at startup (without reset)??? I tried 5 different things at least, but I never saw the damn thing :)

Also, someone posted new key for 2022 models, so I'm working on the docs for it for bscpylgtv (there's no life changing change, it seems).

Sorry Kuler087, I still haven't checked your pattern, maybe tonight.

[chros]

Kuker087, I tried your sample and it works here as well using internal Plex client, so not sure what the issue is on your C2.

[Kuler087]

Thank's I'll try again this weekend, im getting closer to 100h.

[chros]

You will find more samples here (https://www.avforums.com/posts/27944812/), and don't use the Shield for testing :)

[Kuler087]

Kuker087, I tried your sample and it works here as well using internal Plex client, so not sure what the issue is on your C2.

ok last night I updated the firmware of my TV by mistake and noticed that DV was even more raised, more than SDR. :(

But then I tried the WB RGB -1 method and this time it worked :D.
thanks a lot.

[chros]

I'm glad to hear it! Which firmware did you use before?

[Kuler087]

I didn't check the firmware version I was on but if you update to the latest one, check out the black levels in DV: to me it is worse than ever. thankfully your WB trick works!!

[chros]

quietvoid, have you mentioned some sdr calibration issue with recent madvr betas?
I just did one @120nits with b159 plus DisplayCal, and it over brightens the image (it wasn't the case with B8 and old madvr, not sure which one).

[quietvoid]

Not sure, I just remember HDR being 2.2 instead of PQ.
I haven't calibrated the C2 yet, 2 months passed but it's not at 100 hours power-on time yet.

I'm planning on setting up a PGen and getting ColourSpace ZRO, eventually.

[SamuriHL]

PGen is definitely the way to go, especially with the new version coming out that'll handle DV calibration and verify (if LG ever fixes the damn verification mode bug on the 2022's). Fussing with madvr as a pattern gen is not really worth it. There's so many things that can go wrong (and most of them have nothing to do with madvr but more generally how the PC is configured). With PGen there's no guesswork.

[chros]

Oh, yes, now I remember you telling the hdr10 gamma level. Hmmm, thanks, I pay attention when I get there.

Not sure what happened yesterday, after replacing Argyll, madvr, css file with the old ones, now it's ok.
So I created an sdr gamma 2.68 at 234 nits (80 oled light on G2) and it looks good and as it should, but:
it's nothing compared to when I enable HLG processing on top of it! The dynamic range is brutal!!! :)
I'll watch sdr content like this and see how it goes.

[chros]

So, I created another gamma 2.4 3DLUT for PC mode Expert Dark (set to gamma 2.4, oled light 33) ~120nits and the resulting 3dlut again brightens the image (otherwise 3dlut is fine).
That means gamma 2.4 in PC mode overdarkens the image OOTB (I didn't have this issue with B8, although I only used it with >=4.10.25 firmwares.)

[chros]

So, I created another gamma 2.4 3DLUT for PC mode Expert Dark (set to gamma 2.4, oled light 33) ~120nits and the resulting 3dlut again brightens the image (otherwise 3dlut is fine).
That means gamma 2.4 in PC mode overdarkens the image OOTB (I didn't have this issue with B8, although I only used it with >=4.10.25 firmwares.)
Bloody hell, AIPP was on in the expert dark preset, that's why the 3dlut brightened the image, now all's good there as well.

[SamuriHL]

Lol! Always triple check the settings in each picture mode. I find the g2 can be a bit touchy at times. Especially switching back and forth to PC mode.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk