MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread [Archive] - Page 34

quietvoid

2nd April 2021, 22:16

Go with the i1D3 OEM.

Same as the Pro Plus retail, but does not require special unlock codes to work with 3rd party software.

There aren't any OEM options here. Most retail devices are supported in DisplayCAL, HCFR anyways.
The only OEM I can find are from Calman directly, but it's even more expensive given that they don't include import fees, and charge 40$ for shipping.

Maybe I'll just wait for my local shop to have stock of the Plus again, for some reason it's cheaper than the regular Pro..

you can get them from Vistek and Henry's
They sell it 60$ more than my local store :D

Alternatively Amazon is ~20$ more (only one tax) and delivers this week..
Committed to the Amazon one.

kostik

2nd April 2021, 22:29

I also moved to ColourSpace. I wanted to know... Is it true that it is enough to calibrate Sony OLED SDR and it applies the calibration on Dolby Vision and HDR ??
A bit off topic .. I know

SamuriHL

2nd April 2021, 23:21

I don't know enough about Sony panels, but assuming they work similarly to LG here's what we do (and what I just did as I hadn't done this second part yet):

In our service menu, we calibrate one of our temperature modes to the white point we wish to use. I use D65 since any AWP will be pointless without a spectro to profile my I1D3.

Next, in the modes you want to use, change the color temp to the one you calibrated. E.G. I calibrated my cool temp and I set all my modes (SDR bright and dark, HDR Cinema and Technicolor, Dolby Vision Cinema Home and Cinema).

Then we calibrate SDR the way you want by creating a 3D LUT. My dark mode is rec.709 2.4. My bright mode has both DCI-P3 bt.2020 and rec.709 both at 2.2.

What I just did for the first time is used ColourSpace to "calibrate" my technicolor HDR mode. I put that in quotes for a reason. I did NOT mess with the LUTS here. Both 1D and 3D are factory still. But, having set the white point to D65, I used Leon's instructions to adjust the 2 point white point balance (high and low) to tweak the calibration slightly. Doing this, at least according to what my comparisons of a 22 point greyscale measurement sweep, looks like I have a tighter RGB separation both near black and near white. That should improve things noticeably in my HDR content.

So, back to your Sony, if it works similar to how our LG panels do, then if you can calibrate your white point temperature and then use that in your HDR and DV modes, then yes, you'll see a benefit.

chros

3rd April 2021, 10:05

j82k's 1D LUT is brighter (no idea if correct) and fixes the issue but now I doubt my whitepoint is correct, seems too cool.
He had a replacment panel back in the day that results in black crush, that's why he was interested in creating 1dlut.

I've taken the 1D LUT and set all points 1:1, that helped me confirm my factory HDR 1D LUT is garbage.
At least I hope that's what it means, because details in the shadow gradients are way better, and nothing else increases in brightness.

Now I can't fix the whitepoint without measurements.
Still unsure whether my panel is pushing red a lot or if my new 3D LUT is useless.
So this the settings (https://imgbox.com/g/vIx0qDD5Ae) we used creating synthetic 3dluts (1 of them is bt2020, the other is dci-p3). Note that every setting you modify, the outcome can/will be different (modifies the resulting gamma).
LG and Calman also use absolute rendering intent.

Upload the desired 3dlut at first or leave the factory one in place, then try to create a 1dlut.
But it won't be 10 minutes job :) And you can easily introduce other artifacts that can be only visible if you switch between your and a "reference" preset. (You can set up Cinema Home to be almost identical to Cinema preset: color temp w50, gamma medium, gamut Extended).
Then when you think you're done, check the result with various clips you are familiar with and switch between presets.

The biggest issue is that we don't have reference image to compare to, so no one really knows how certain scenes are supposed to look like.
E.g. I just noticed by accident that LG factory luts paint way more blue in low APL scenes, this can be seen with the factory measurements (https://imgbox.com/K1ZI6WyY) as well and can be fixed with 1dlut and can easily seen with this clip (https://we.tl/t-Jw3fvmUK1z) along with the cyan/magenta issue (file will be up for a week).

kostik

3rd April 2021, 12:18

SamuriHL

3rd April 2021, 13:17

That's entirely possible it works that way. These panels take the 2.2 gamma and covert it internally to pq eotf. That's why we calibrate greyscale at 2.2 for dv and hdr. I know for LG it's not that simple as just doing an sdr calibration. We have to calibrate the actual dv picture mode which means setting the proper dv Metadata while calibrating. Kind of a pain in the ass.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

quietvoid

3rd April 2021, 15:27

Upload the desired 3dlut at first or leave the factory one in place, then try to create a 1dlut.
This is the opposite of what I've read, usually it's 1d first, 3d after.

At this point I just need proper measurements to be able to know what's up with the panel :)

Though I still want to test what the whitepoint is for the HDR Cinema preset once 1D lut is uploaded, because I've been testing with technicolor Expert and that defaults to Warm1.
And I've been using weird profiles for the 3D LUT to adjust to a different WP, but the end result loses a lot of red saturation (compared to factory).

I want to believe I won't need to use a 1D LUT but won't know until I actually try to calibrate.
Not sure there's any other way to adjust luminance for HDR.

chros

3rd April 2021, 15:31

but its off topic so it doesn't matter...
It's not offtopic, shoot any OLED related questions, probably the thread needs to be renamed :)
@Sunset1982 knows more, he has a Sony now :) Btw, how is it?

SamuriHL

3rd April 2021, 16:16

You can't create a true 3d lut for hdr on these panels. That's why calman offers a matrix lut that does primaries. But you are correct that if you're going 1d lut for greyscale correction that it should be done first else the 3d lut becomes invalid. Alternate white point isn't something I've played with because I don't have a spectro to profile my meter therefore it won't be accurate enough. The 1d lut will bypass any service menu calibration you might do.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

quietvoid

3rd April 2021, 16:43

Welp, I don't see any other option for HDR if fixing the greyscale is necessary, it's either 3D LUT to get back to D65 or nothing.

SamuriHL

3rd April 2021, 17:08

Well, there's always the way I did it which does not involve messing with the factory LUTS. Fix white point to D65 in the service menu, and then perform a manual adjustment to the 2 point white balance for the picture mode you wanna use. That's a "good enough" calibration for HDR on these panels.

quietvoid

3rd April 2021, 17:25

Yea but it probably will not fix my shadow brightness, which is what requires the 1D LUT :)
I'm probably going to try just doing white balance first, and see if there's still a noticeable problem in the greyscale brightness levels.

chros

3rd April 2021, 17:26

Fix white point to D65 in the service menu
At which nits?! :D 100/192/203 nits? You get my point ...

then perform a manual adjustment to the 2 point white balance for the picture mode you wanna use. That's a "good enough" calibration for HDR on these panels.
According to those who didn't dare to touch the 1dlut ...

This is the opposite of what I've read, usually it's 1d first, 3d after.
Calman also does this way (with its workflow).
3dlut using absolute rendering intent shouldn't touch gamma, but due to whatever LG does with its bt2020 processing, it does even using absolute rendering intent (you can measure it and it's also visible).

Though I still want to test what the whitepoint is for the HDR Cinema preset once 1D lut is uploaded, because I've been testing with technicolor Expert and that defaults to Warm1.
This is just a setting, you can switch it to Warm2 as well.

I want to believe I won't need to use a 1D LUT but won't know until I actually try to calibrate. Not sure there's any other way to adjust luminance for HDR.
About this: once you get to the point to adjust grayscale (either with TV WB controls or 1dlut), make sure you aim at 700 nits (with 100% white), that's what the internal tonemapping requires, if you go higher (even just 730 nits) the whole picture will be brighter than reference (this can be also measured using PQ curve in HCFR).

chros

3rd April 2021, 17:31

I'm probably going to try just doing white balance first, and see if there's still a noticeable problem in the greyscale brightness levels.
The TV settings are supposed to be used in PQ (not in gamma) and unfortunately the lowest setting is C268 that can't go low enough to correct low APL issues (~10% in gamma). I tried ... :)
This is how they align with B8 approx. (some C8 values are slightly different) Also C1023 means 109% white not 100% :)

10% C268
15% C335
20% C402
25% C436
30% C470
35% C485
40% C500
C516
45% C531
C549
C563
55% C579
60% C594
65% C610
70% C627
75% C643
80% C658
85% C674
90% C692
109% C1023

quietvoid

3rd April 2021, 17:35

This is just a setting, you can switch it to Warm2 as well. Not after uploading the 1D LUT..
Which is why I'm stuck with a bad white point right now in HDR, with no idea how to correctly adjust it without measurements.

About this: once you get to the point to adjust grayscale (either with TV WB controls or 1dlut), make sure you aim at 700 nits (with 100% white), that's what the internal tonemapping requires, if you go higher (even just 730 nits) the whole picture will be brighter than reference (this can be also measured using PQ curve in HCFR).
The TV settings are supposed to be used in PQ (not in gamma) and unfortunately the lowest setting is C268 that can't go low enough to correct low APL issues (~10% in gamma). I tried ... :)

You mention TV WB controls for the grayscale, but don't those only adjust the color values, not the actual brightness tracking? At least in HDR that's the case.
In SDR you can control luminance for every 5% stimulus, but not in HDR.

Or I'm missing something?

What I'm trying to fix is the PQ tracking, which I'm suspicious about the TV tracking accurately in the low-mid levels.
Not the colors.

chros

3rd April 2021, 18:05

Not after uploading the 1D LUT..
Oh, you are right, but as @SamuriHL said, the uploaded 1dlut is overriding it anyway!
And @jk82 used an alternative white point (if you use his 1dlut), maybe he mentioned it in the displaycal thread which one exactly.

You mention TV WB controls for the grayscale, but don't those only adjust the color values, not the actual brightness tracking? At least in HDR that's the case.
In SDR you can control luminance for every 5% stimulus, but not in HDR.

Or I'm missing something?

What I'm trying to fix is the PQ tracking, which I'm suspicious about the TV tracking accurately in the low-mid levels.
Not the colors.
Exactly that's how you can modify luminance as well, by reducing/increasing e.g. all of them (RGB) at a given point(s). The side effect is that colors will be also affected, not just because of modifying the controls but altering gamma as well.

Edit: and that is exactly what the 1dlut also does. You have 4 values: input signal (from 0 to 1) and the corresponding 3 RGB values.
So essentially the 2 approaches are the same (if LG handles them equally), but you can set more data points (and wherever you want) with 1dlut.

Edit2: you can try this out even without a meter, add e.g. 20 to every RGB values at every point. :)

quietvoid

3rd April 2021, 18:31

Pretty sure I had tried playing with increasing all the RGB values but I don't think it made a difference in the TV settings. Gonna have to try again.

I'm not too sure about your interpretation of the PQ values, though.
C268 would be around 7-8 nits, is that not low enough?

I don't think my issues are that low brightness anyways, will have to try and see if there's a difference when I increase all RGB.

chros

3rd April 2021, 18:44

I'm not too sure about your interpretation of the PQ values, though.
C268 would be around 7-8 nits, is that not low enough?
Unfortunately not low enough to adjust near black (low APL) issues, but you will see.

I have uploaded for you couple of 1d/3dluts (https://we.tl/t-gJFCasiEAD) (file is up for a week) that you can play with technicolor preset:

You can NOT use the *.cube files (3dluts): it's with 17 points (B8)!!!
- you have to create yours with 33 points (C8): use the settings in the images that I shared before and only change the resolution and rendering intent:
- btdc-is-g22-10000.cube : saturation rendering intent (-is)
- btdc-iaw-g22-10000.cube : absolute with white point scaling rendering intent (-iaw)

There are 4 1dluts (*.cal files) that you can use (B8 requires 700nits at 100% as well), all set around D65 WP:
- chdr15-iaw-730nits.cal: 730 nits (@100%) for -iaw 3dlut (with unity 3dlut applied)
- chdr30-iaw-700nits.cal: 700 nits (@100%) for -iaw 3dlut (with unity 3dlut applied)
- chdr35-iaw-700nits-3dlucorrected.cal: 700 nits (@100%) for -iaw 3dlut (with custom -iaw 3dlut applied), that's when I tried to correct the cyan/magente issue, and introduced other issues with it :)
- chdr88-is.cal: 700 nits (@100%) for -is 3dlut (with custom -is 3dlut applied)

I'll be curious which one you'll prefer :)

SamuriHL

3rd April 2021, 19:12

At which nits?! :D 100/192/203 nits? You get my point ...

No, your point is confused. Because you're talking about what the content was mastered to, not what the display is calibrated to. Do you think LG calibrates to 100/192/203 nits from the factory? D65 in the service menu is calibrated to 100 nits.

According to those who didn't dare to touch the 1dlut ...

That's a VERY bold, incorrect assumption you're making here. You truly believe that Light Illusion didn't actually test this thoroughly before giving the advice to not touch the 1D LUT on LG displays? Umm, you can believe that if you want I guess...

SamuriHL

3rd April 2021, 19:17

The other problem is our consumer meter (i1d3) does not measure low light very well. So calibrating to fix those kinds of issues with this meter is somewhat pointless. I know some people have created synthetic luts to solve this issue. That's beyond my capability. And you have to be very careful not to introduce banding, posterization, and other fun and exciting artifacts with all of this. Exact science my ass! LOL

SamuriHL

3rd April 2021, 19:46

Just so we're clear about the 1D LUT issues I'm talking about:

https://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/lg-oleds-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread.13105/#post-131512

quietvoid

3rd April 2021, 21:11

Quoting a post from there:
So its better to not reset the 1D LUT table, do manual cal of 100% White using RGB-High and set Brightness to a value that is correct for the TV near black performance and then perform a 3D LUT, where inside to the 3D LUT it will contain 33-Point Grayscale also.

I guess this only applies to SDR, because HDR has no brightness control and messing with 20 points is sub optimal because artifacts.

I tried fixing my factory preset in HDR and it didn't work at all with with 2 or 20 points.
So I still want to believe resetting the 1D LUT properly (with accurate whitepoint correction) is gonna be better for me.

Edit: Isn't this also what Calman does? I'm not sure there is manual HDR/DV calibration, only measurements and straight into a proper 1D/3D LUT combo uploaded to the TV.
At least for anything requiring grayscale brightness adjustments, whitepoint only doesn't require any of this.

SamuriHL

3rd April 2021, 21:41

Yes, Calman does a unity 1D LUT and 3D LUT for SDR, HDR, and DV. They claim the beta version that's been released in the last week works around/fixes the raised black and other issues with uploading a 1D LUT. My license ran out last November so I can't try it to find out if that's true. But they set a unity 1D LUT and then calculate greyscale corrections in that 1D LUT. Then they run a matrix LUT (or lightning I don't know what it's called these days) to create a primary 3D LUT. That's if you use the autocal workflow, anyway.

chros

4th April 2021, 12:29

No, your point is confused. Because you're talking about what the content was mastered to, not what the display is calibrated to. Do you think LG calibrates to 100/192/203 nits from the factory? D65 in the service menu is calibrated to 100 nits.
Yes, for SDR. But we are talking about HDR, that's why I said that it's far from simple and maybe no one knows how it's supposed to work.

You truly believe that Light Illusion didn't actually test this thoroughly before giving the advice to not touch the 1D LUT on LG displays?
As far as I know it's not Light Illusion who provided those extra tools :) But do they offer 1dlut upload capability now? (They didn't a year ago.) That means you have to accept everything they say, you can't try it for yourself.
And there's a valid usecase for 1dluts: e.g. to fix black crush (caused by panel replacement/firmware/etc), again with HDR.

And you have to be very careful not to introduce banding, posterization, and other fun and exciting artifacts with all of this. Exact science my ass! LOL
That's absolutely true :) I've created around 10 1dluts for now and none of them were perfect :)

https://liftgammagain.com/forum/index.php?threads/lg-oleds-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread.13105/#post-131512
Yes, agreed, but again, they talk about SDR, we don't! :)

I guess this only applies to SDR
That's the point!

Edit: Isn't this also what Calman does? I'm not sure there is manual HDR/DV calibration, only measurements and straight into a proper 1D/3D LUT combo uploaded to the TV.

Yes, Calman does a unity 1D LUT and 3D LUT for SDR, HDR, and DV.
... But they set a unity 1D LUT and then calculate greyscale corrections in that 1D LUT. Then they run a matrix LUT (or lightning I don't know what it's called these days) to create a primary 3D LUT. That's if you use the autocal workflow, anyway.
Yes (I haven't tried DV):
- they do ddc reset at first
- they do Autocal for 1dlut (with unityt 1dlut in place): measuring 20 points with LG 2018 Oleds (0 1.4 2 2.7 4 5 7 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 60 70 80 90 100 %), they start with 100% and going backwards; estimating 1 point at a time, uploading the 1dlut, then measuring that 1 point, adjusting/uploading/measuring etc., then move on to the next. So it's essentially the "same" as what we do with our 1dlut, the big difference is that it doesn't iterate over the whole 20 points at all that we can do if necessary (plus you won't have an uploadable file in the end of the process, it's handled internally, so I'm not sure you can upload the same calculated 1dlut multiple times, I guess not, and that's a big bummer)
This takes about 20 minutes with madTPG
- then they measure (with the new uploaded 1dlut in place) 5 colors (RGBWB) for HDR10 and create a 3dlut out of those (but what settings they use for this 3dlut???) then upload it
The problem with this part is, again, who knows what color patches they use (100% in gamma space?) and the resulting gamut can (will?) be seriously reduced, resulting in completely different colors than our "reference" factory preset.
- note that all of these steps are optional in the workflow (so these are the suggested steps, but you can skip any of these)

They claim the beta version that's been released in the last week works around/fixes the raised black and other issues with uploading a 1D LUT.
Well, after experimenting a lot with 1dlut, there's no magic trick here, they can only modify the shape of the resulting gamma curve, nothing else.

SamuriHL

4th April 2021, 15:32

Yes, for SDR. But we are talking about HDR, that's why I said that it's far from simple and maybe no one knows how it's supposed to work.

This isn't so hard as you make it out to be. By default the TV ships with a few different color temps set at the factory. Most people recommend to use warm2 because it's closest to D65 out of the box. The thing is, you have to remember that for HDR, internally the panel is converting 2.2 gamma to PQ EOTF, so setting the white point to 100 NIT D65 (or an AWP if you have the proper equipment to do so) is correct because you're measuring it at 2.2 gamma when you calibrate it. If you use a higher NIT white point, I suspect that's going to seriously mess with the TV's internal tone mapping.

As far as I know it's not Light Illusion who provided those extra tools :) But do they offer 1dlut upload capability now? (They didn't a year ago.) That means you have to accept everything they say, you can't try it for yourself.
And there's a valid usecase for 1dluts: e.g. to fix black crush (caused by panel replacement/firmware/etc), again with HDR.

Huh? DeviceControl has always had the ability to upload a 1D and 3D LUT as far as I know. I've been using it for over a year now. We just don't use 1D LUT for SDR or HDR.

That's absolutely true :) I've created around 10 1dluts for now and none of them were perfect :)

Yes.

Yes (I haven't tried DV):
- they do ddc reset at first
- they do Autocal for 1dlut (with unityt 1dlut in place): measuring 20 points with LG 2018 Oleds (0 1.4 2 2.7 4 5 7 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 60 70 80 90 100 %), they start with 100% and going backwards; estimating 1 point at a time, uploading the 1dlut, then measuring that 1 point, adjusting/uploading/measuring etc., then move on to the next. So it's essentially the "same" as what we do with our 1dlut, the big difference is that it doesn't iterate over the whole 20 points at all that we can do if necessary (plus you won't have an uploadable file in the end of the process, it's handled internally, so I'm not sure you can upload the same calculated 1dlut multiple times, I guess not, and that's a big bummer)
This takes about 20 minutes with madTPG
- then they measure (with the new uploaded 1dlut in place) 5 colors (RGBWB) for HDR10 and create a 3dlut out of those (but what settings they use for this 3dlut???) then upload it
The problem with this part is, again, who knows what color patches they use (100% in gamma space?) and the resulting gamut can (will?) be seriously reduced, resulting in completely different colors than our "reference" factory preset.
- note that all of these steps are optional in the workflow (so these are the suggested steps, but you can skip any of these)

Yes, I played with this workflow for months for both HDR and DV and was never able to get satisfactory results from it. I can't test the beta so I can't comment if it's improved or not. And you can actually measure more than 20 points if you want during greyscale (I think it's like a 42 point option or something like that). This didn't seem to make much of a difference for me. I got the same screwed up results regardless. Leon even showed us how to do a manual greyscale calibration through the DDC and while that was better it was still flawed. And extremely time consuming to boot.

Well, after experimenting a lot with 1dlut, there's no magic trick here, they can only modify the shape of the resulting gamma curve, nothing else.

Then they'll not be truly fixing the issues caused by using a 1D LUT, and yes, this applies to HDR as well as SDR.

chros

4th April 2021, 17:30

The thing is, you have to remember that for HDR, internally the panel is converting 2.2 gamma to PQ EOTF, so setting the white point to 100 NIT D65 (or an AWP if you have the proper equipment to do so) is correct because you're measuring it at 2.2 gamma when you calibrate it. If you use a higher NIT white point, I suspect that's going to seriously mess with the TV's internal tone mapping.
Yes, but that's the question, do we actually know how LG (in a given year) deals with HDR? I don't think so ...
(E.g. Vincent stated that he calibrates HDR10 to D65@203 nits, but how/why/with which method ... ? :))

Huh? DeviceControl has always had the ability to upload a 1D and 3D LUT as far as I know. I've been using it for over a year now. We just don't use 1D LUT for SDR or HDR.
Oh, I'm sorry, you are absolutely right, I forgot about it completely :o (I haven't used it since aiopylgtv is available).
OK, so the possibility was/is there for the gurus as well to play around with it.

SamuriHL

4th April 2021, 17:36

Yes, but that's the question, do we actually know how LG (in a given year) deals with HDR? I don't think so ...
(E.g. Vincent stated that he calibrates HDR10 to D65@203 nits, but how/why/with which method ... ? :))

Vincent uses Calman. As for how he'd calibrate D65 to 203 nits, that I don't know. I would wager a guess that he's only doing that on newer LG panels, not our 18 models, though. Why? Because with the newer models you can upload a custom tone curve. I'm not sure how to do this in the Calman workflow. Besides, he's got a pro license and isn't using Calman home.

Oh, I'm sorry, you are absolutely right, I forgot about it completely :o (I haven't used it since aiopylgtv is available).
OK, so the possibility was/is there for the gurus as well to play around with it.

Yes, you can definitely create and upload a 1D lut should you choose. And because of how LightSpace/ColourSpace work, you can actually compare having it uploaded with simply applying it from LS/CS and running measurements. And they found there's most definitely a difference between having it uploaded vs simply applying it like an external LUT box would.

quietvoid

4th April 2021, 19:10

I just got my meter and gonna try to do a simple SM whitebalance calibration.

I tried doing a ddc_reset without uploading the unity 1D LUT and my red saturation is way lower. Is this normal?
Just aiopylgtvcommand <IP> ddc_reset hdr_cinema False

I was expecting it to be the same but apparently not..

SamuriHL

4th April 2021, 20:21

I actually don't know what a DDC reset without resetting the 1D LUT to unity would do. I don't imagine that would be correct, though. I don't know enough about the software you're using to do that.

quietvoid

4th April 2021, 21:38

Yea, I just ended up doing a factory reset again.
I wasn't too sure how to calibrate the WP through service menu so went ahead and did 20 points SDR :D

Considering it was my first attempt I think I did okay. https://postimg.cc/YhG7mHXG
The TV by default was pushing red a lot..

But then I left Windows native and did a measurement in my usual VM, and measurements are much faster but also way off.
Oh I'm silly, the colorimeter is not even passthrough by USB..

For the SM, am I supposed to measure with HCFR/DisplayCal while the service menu is showing the white screen?

SamuriHL

4th April 2021, 21:58

No, you should be using HCFR/DisplayCal to show a white patch and turn off the IRE or whatever the hell it's called in the SM.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lg-oleds-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread.3043520/page-74#post-60048596

This shows the process. You should be able to do it with HCFR/DisplayCal the same way.

EDIT:

Meant to add this. The reason these panels always push red is that is their native color. There's a reason we leave red at 192 in the SM and only adjust blue and green. We lose luminance otherwise.

quietvoid

4th April 2021, 22:40

Ahh I missed the part about the pattern :)
So far all my measurements were done in native gamut, I think that's what is recommended. Though I've switched to Auto afterwards.

Also all colors are way off with native, so I'm still not sure if greyscale should have been done in native or not for SDR.

SamuriHL

4th April 2021, 23:22

Once you upload a 1D lut or reset it I think it locks the gamut but I'm not entirely sure. Been a long time since I messed with the 1D lut. Then again you did say you didn't touch the lut itself only DDC reset but I'm not 100% sure if that doesn't automagically put it in unity. I truly don't know.

quietvoid

4th April 2021, 23:32

I did a factory reset after the ddc_reset mistake, so this is all starting from factory.

SamuriHL

4th April 2021, 23:48

I'm not sure. Once you do the service menu white point balance adjustment, in gamma 2.2 to 109% white, you should then be able to set the temperature you calibrated in your picture mode. At that point you should be able to calibrate that picture mode however you'd like. For HDR the gamut should be set to auto. Uploading a LUT will override that and grey out the gamut setting because it's handled by the LUT you create.

quietvoid

5th April 2021, 01:29

So far I've reset my 20 point stuff back to default.
Did white balance in the service menu, then back to 20 points which was simpler because less to do. Then grayscale luminance adjustments.

I didn't touch LUTs yet but I think I might need to for correcting colors, as adjusting primaries/secondaries seems to make things even worse.

Tried playing with madTPG but HDR isn't staying enabled. Shrug.

SamuriHL

5th April 2021, 02:53

madTPG can be temperamental at times. It's one of the reasons I switched to using pgenerator on the rpi. And why I got the HD Fury.

chros

5th April 2021, 10:57

I just got my meter
Nice! :) Don't forget to select the meter WOLED meter correction spectral file for it (in HCFR and in DisplayCal as well), WOLED 2016 is also good, but here is one for 2018 models (https://we.tl/t-rH9EnkLLxw) (up for a week), created by janos666 with i1Pro2 in SDR calibration mode after ddc_reset.

I tried doing a ddc_reset without uploading the unity 1D LUT and my red saturation is way lower. Is this normal?
It just then removes the 3dlut in SDR (ddc_reset (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/blob/master/aiopylgtv/webos_client.py#L1321)), but I haven't recognised much difference with/without 3dlut in sdr, although I haven't measured it.

So far all my measurements were done in native gamut, I think that's what is recommended. Though I've switched to Auto afterwards.

Also all colors are way off with native, so I'm still not sure if greyscale should have been done in native or not for SDR.
So far I've reset my 20 point stuff back to default.
Did white balance in the service menu, then back to 20 points which was simpler because less to do. Then grayscale luminance adjustments.

I didn't touch LUTs yet but I think I might need to for correcting colors, as adjusting primaries/secondaries seems to make things even worse.
About SDR for video:
- as SamuriHL mentioned, the easiest way is to remove only the 3dlut, then create a 3dlut for madvr or the TV with DisplayCal (using madvr SDR preset, ~1 hour) (personally I only use madvr for SDR, nothing else)
- - you only have to deal with the 1dlut if you have serious issues with it for whatever reason (the big 3dlut can handle the grayscale as well)
- - for this, put the preset into Wide gamut (native)
- - to be able to upload into TV, you have to set Iridas format, full range (input and output), with 33 points for C8
- - you can do verification when it's done (using XXL video charts, 755 patches, that includes ~25 point for grayscale as well) and with HCFR

The good thing about this approach is that we will get 100% rec709 coverage (since we have ~96-97% dci-p3), so there's no gamut distortion. (That's why I don't see the point of uploading a dci-p3 one into bt2020, because at that time we will have it.)
Obviously the desktop and other application will be off with this if you only created a 3dlut for madvr, but I don't care about those.

And just to make it more confusing, the display produce different colors: PC vs non-PC mode, limit vs full range :)

Tried playing with madTPG but HDR isn't staying enabled. Shrug.
Yes, I get the same, I think it's because of driver + OS combination, it worked flawlessly 1 year go here :)
I mentioned the solution here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1939693#post1939693):
I used madTPG as TPG, but even setting this up is problematic but only when using HDR10 output!:
- using the old driver (see my signature) that keeps the display in HDR even when app is not fullscreen
- run a calibration pattern video with metadata 1000/400 (maxCLL/maxFALL) and P3 primaries that triggers the display into HDR10 mode and stays in it (you can minimize the player to the tray)
- you can set a black image as background on the TV
- run madTPG for SDR calibration! (so HDR checkbox is off in HCFR, same in other software, e.g. Calman)

chros

5th April 2021, 11:15

Just one more thing about the HDR10 results (non-PC mode + limited (Low) signal):
- cinema HDR preset (https://imgbox.com/g/D1etg6dU4M) with factory luts and after full ddc_reset (where RGB balance is way off)
- cinema HDR preset after Calman (https://imgbox.com/g/HMa9xyBwNB) 20 points 1dlut autocal + matrix 3dlut
- - it also introduced other visible color errors on images
- - and I was wrong, you can actually see/modify what values Calman set for 1dlut and 3dlut (https://imgbox.com/g/e9fbF5qPK6) as well (the latter is huge, so not sure how useable this is)

So, maybe I should try to create a 40 points 1dlut for HDR10, maybe ... :)

Edit: and there's 1 more interesting thing about the gamma for HDR10:
- we see how it looks like with factory cinema preset (rotated S cure?)
- when I created a flat gamma 2.2:
- - it removed the fog/veil from dark scenes (lower end of gamma, below 30%)
- - but it introduced the same (fog/veil) in normal scenes!!! (other part of gamma, above 30%?)
- - so maybe I should aim, e.g. gamma 2.22 below 30% and gamma 2.1 above 30%?! :)

SamuriHL

5th April 2021, 13:09

I had the same thought about a 40 point calibration of greyscale when I was using calman. Thinking that measuring more points would make the lut more accurate. In fact quite the opposite happened. It created more artifacts, not less. It's entirely possible because of the limitation of the meter in low light conditions that it introduced more errors but I've no real idea. I know a user in the colourspace forum sells a patch set that was optimized for the LG oleds and he focused it more in the middle. Meaning less readings at the low end so that colourspace would calculate the lut values from the more accurate readings in the middle. I've seen people say that worked really well. Almost like a synthetic lut in a way. You can't really tell calman to do that though. I suspect you could with hcfr or displaycal?

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

quietvoid

5th April 2021, 15:57

That's a lot of info @chros.
So I should only be clearing the factory 3D LUT if I was to replace it, which I haven't done yet.
For me, removing it reduces saturation a lot but I haven't measured if it's more accurate that way.

I guess I'll have to redo everything without 3D LUT, and upload a proper one after calibration.
Otherwise my colors are still not accurate.

What about calibration mode, should I be using it while measuring in HCFR/DisplayCal?
I also don't really know if I can just use a 3D LUT (and upload to the TV) instead of doing 20 points, since you mention it also corrects the greyscale?

SamuriHL

5th April 2021, 16:19

It all depends on if you're going to do a 1D lut or not as to what process you use. Here's how I do it:

-Calibrate White Point in the SM
-Reset the 3D LUT to unity, then disable calibration mode
-Measure and generate a 3D lut....this will include greyscale measurements
-Upload the 3D lut to the display

Calman measures while in calibration mode and I'm not necessarily sure that's the best of ideas. Calibration mode does change how the display is working. They do it because that's the only way they can mess with the DDC. But ideally you want to measure what you'll be watching.

quietvoid

5th April 2021, 17:01

Thanks, looks like I'll need to get comfortable with DisplayCal after all.

SamuriHL

5th April 2021, 17:38

If you are going to use a 1D lut then you can just add to the process above:

-Reset the 1D lut to unity, then disable calibration mode
-Measure and generate the 1D lut....upload the 1D lut to the display
-...repeat for 3D lut

I'd take it out of calibration mode after resetting to unity before measuring. Definitely do the 1D lut first, then the 3D lut as the 1D lut will correct greyscale requiring less correction (and potential for issues) in the 3D lut. In theory. :D

chros

5th April 2021, 17:52

It's entirely possible because of the limitation of the meter in low light conditions that it introduced more errors but I've no real idea.
This is with SDR again, right? :) It can happen with it, but with HDR10 even 5% is easily readable.

So I should only be clearing the factory 3D LUT if I was to replace it, which I haven't done yet.
Yes, in both SDR and HDR10.

What about calibration mode, should I be using it while measuring in HCFR/DisplayCal?
In SDR to create only 3dlut follow the process that I and SamuriHL mentioned:
-Calibrate White Point in the SM
-Reset the 3D LUT to unity, then disable calibration mode
-Measure and generate a 3D lut....this will include greyscale measurements
-Upload the 3D lut to the display
This means measurements for 3dlut happens in non-calibration mode.

But for HDR10 (also DoVi) I did everything (1dlut measurements) in calibration mode. As you can see in calibration mode with our 2018 sets the whole image gets brighter both in SDR and HDR10, but not in DoVi :) (I was told that 2019 sets works like DoVi in all modes, brightness won't change.)

I also don't really know if I can just use a 3D LUT (and upload to the TV) instead of doing 20 points, since you mention it also corrects the greyscale?
For SDR yes! :) But not for HDR10 :)

Thanks, looks like I'll need to get comfortable with DisplayCal after all.
That's easy for SDR, thanks to Florian, just select madvr sdr profile, select white drift on first page, then on 3dlut page select select pure gamma 2.2 or 2.4 (depending on what you aim for), wait and done, you are ready to verify it, e.g. looking at different scenes with it :) (You don't necessarily need the full calibration part (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/madvr-argyllcms.1471169/post-60182209).)

SamuriHL

5th April 2021, 18:11

This is with SDR again, right? :) It can happen with it, but with HDR10 even 5% is easily readable.

I really don't know what this means given that black is black. Low light means exactly that. Are you suggesting HDR has no low light measurements? I'm talking WELL below 5% when I say low light. We're talking 2% and lower. This meter does not handle that well.

But for HDR10 (also DoVi) I did everything (1dlut measurements) in calibration mode. As you can see in calibration mode with our 2018 sets the whole image gets brighter both in SDR and HDR10, but not in DoVi :) (I was told that 2019 sets works like DoVi in all modes, brightness won't change.)

Yea, it's not SUPPOSED to do that but it does. Which is why I measure in non-calibration mode cause otherwise you're measuring something that's artificially bright.