MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[quietvoid]

Probably would want to wait until the options get reduced down to a few good ones as people test.

[chros]

Exectly, plus wait for a new build that doesn't crash and result in green screen :)

[SamuriHL]

I don't need to wait for a new build. :P The answer is yes, settings WILL change based on the work done in this new build. Whether you decide to wait for some future build or not before you start playing with the settings is your choice, but, I've already started adjusting mine and will continue to work on it through the weekend.

[mark0077]

Do any of you guys who have an LG CX, who have tried/liked SmoothMotion in madVR, tried using the BFI on these models. I have tried BFI to improve motion resolution on my C9 but it only has an off/on for BFI, no low/medium/high which I believe the CX has. Id be interested to hear if you find that improves motion for you and isn't too 'flickery' :)

[VBB]

I've been wondering about one thing lately: How come motion is always buttery smooth in PC mode, with proper cadence, when at the same time Real Cinema is permanently disabled? Meanwhile, in normal mode, motion has judder without RC. If you then enable RC, there is very noticeable video delay, which PC mode, of course, does not have. Just curious how PC mode manages to pull that off when all processing (that we know of) is turned off. We need an LG engineer on this board ;)

[SamuriHL]

It's funny cause the answer to your question is in what you posted. :) All that processing that's turned on in non-PC mode is exactly what's causing the judder in the first place. :)

[VBB]

Well, that's plausible, but it doesn't explain what PC mode does for proper cadence.

[SamuriHL]

Turns crap off. :) I really do believe the processing causes just enough of a delay to cause the issue we see. I turn as much of it off as I can in non-PC mode and I get a MOSTLY judder free experience.

[chros]

What do you mean about video delay? As we know RC is working the opposite way on Normal mode: if it's on then it doesn't touch the source with proper cadence, if it's off then it will do some crazy things :)

[VBB]

Perhaps this was improved upon in newer models, but when I enable RC on my C7, it will create a video delay of at least 120ms. I would then have to adjust the AVR accordingly, which is always a PITA. In PC mode, or with RC off in normal mode, there is no additional delay, and the lip sync can remain at zero across the board. Big plus IMO.

[mark0077]

I have tried a number of months without interpolation on my LG C9, after many years of using SVP, I have to say I don't know how people can be happy to watch 24p on a modern/good OLED without some compensation for motion/judderyness. With BFI mode enabled on the C9 at least, its too flickery as it only has an off/on mode. The "on" mode is very flickery compared to the low mode on the C10 and newer. (I welcome C10 inputs on this discussion when set to low).

We all know OLED is "perfectly" juddery as the OLED is doing as its supposed to do in 24p mode and we can get attached to that as being the 'directors intent'. I'm all for that, but I highly doubt that exactness / judderyness is what the director intended (how will we ever know eh?).

I really like SVP and its varying ranges of smoothness it allows, to over come this. Now it allows a pure avisynth_filter based way of engaging it, without the need for ffdshow. I think the whole "soap opera affect" is really over emphasised. This SVP smoothness looks fantastic to me and all of my relatives, SVP being engaged in a medium smoothness mode. It shouldn't be shunned so badly as "soap opera affect" and dismissed so badly/quickly.

In a way its like saying upscaling is "soap opera affect" (i.e. this is not natural, of course it isn't natural and that's the point, its to get as close to what the director intended, and that's not always exactly what's in the content/blu-ray, he/she probably didn't intend us to see a juddery image of 24p on an OLED right, just like he/she didn't intend us upscaling the resolution in crazy/great ways that we can do with modern hardware??)

I really look forward to this forum discussion move past it being "soap opera affect" and move into looking at ways to make our resulting image moving towards the true directors intent, which we all know is not a juddery 24p which a lot of us are seeing on these super modern OLEDs.

I'm not sure what the end solution will be though SVP and some tweaks to its settings (everyone is welcome to share their settings), or madVR (down the road possibly).

[huhn]

they clearly do even an OLED is slow compared to an CRT and they are not that "long" gone as mastering devices.

[VBB]

Next time you go to the movie theater (whenever that may be...), look for stutter in pans and fast action. It's there. That's the nature of 24fps, unfortunately, and since we're so used to it, anything else will look "unnatural".

[SamuriHL]

Correct. It's why people freaked out with the Hobbit movies when Jackson filmed them at 48fps. Which i was personally elated about and loved it. But it made a lot of people REALLY uneasy.

[pirlouy]

@mark0077: Sorry I did not read all the thread. You're saying you use SVP on a LG Oled screen ?
Why don't you use the integrated motion interpolation from the TV ?

I also don't like the judder for 24fps content, but I use the one from my Samsung TV and I don't need SVP.
The advantage of using the one from Samsung, it uses its 120hz panel to convert the 24fps content, and you can adjust the fluidity to avoid soap opera effect.

I ask the question because it would be very disappointing if LG didn't have a motion interpolation good algorithm like the one from Samsung TV.

[mark0077]

@mark0077: Sorry I did not read all the thread. You're saying you use SVP on a LG Oled screen ?
Why don't you use the integrated motion interpolation from the TV ?

I also don't like the judder for 24fps content, but I use the one from my Samsung TV and I don't need SVP.
The advantage of using the one from Samsung, it uses its 120hz panel to convert the 24fps content, and you can adjust the fluidity to avoid soap opera effect.

I ask the question because it would be very disappointing if LG didn't have a motion interpolation good algorithm like the one from Samsung TV.

In PC mode I don't think the TV's interpolation can be used. It disables all of those features to keep latency low I guess. I would assume the TV's interpolation couldn't beat what a pc could do, similar to upscaling I guess. But I have not compared them. Something to try though, thanks.

[Emulgator]

To judge the unwanted side effects of (LG and other's) motion interpolation thoroughly I can suggest simple test patterns.
One can just generate blinking patterns of dots, or fences crossmoving. Very enlightening.
Or use a Spears & Munsil BD/UHD disc (Stacey Spears being a member here).

With the advent of AI crossmoving parts may come out more convincing.

In the end it seems to depend what one's vision algos are trained for.
Prefer smooth motion and tolerate such faults vs. finding them too distracting.

I find myself trying LG's motion interpolation (OLED55E6V) on and off,
just to find that some scenes might just benefit while others are definitely damaged.

A valid attempt for treatment of 24p content on large screens might be:
Introduce the correct amount of motion blur to make too short shutter angles consumable.

Pixar have demonstrated that perfectly:
Their short snowman-in-a-globe episode ("Knick Knack") had been rendered in 24p, has plenty of rapid motion, particles and stuff.
If you freeze a frame of the snowflake whirl you become aware how much love has gone into designing that motion blur.
Being from 1989 it still worked perfectly for me in 2019, BD 23.976p on a standard speed Loewe Connect 32" (no HFR interpolation).
Big thanks, John Lasseter et al.

This means there is no imperative to interpolate faulty frames when the vision algo is able to do that work on correct motion blurs.

[quietvoid]

To avoid cluttering the AVS thread more, what's the opinion here on the current saturation levels in high nit, HDR playback?
I've personally never noticed a difference for regular movies without desaturation, since the display is at DCI-P3.
Even demos, there aren't many scenes where desaturating makes a difference.

So all this testing for "correctness" seems very much focused at making low nit tonemapping desaturate much more than the HDR intent.
In my opinion, it feels like desaturating more for low nit projectors actually goes against the graded HDR master, which intends to display the color at the high brightness it should be.

Thoughts?

[SamuriHL]

While it's probably more noticeable for those with lower nit levels, we are not immune to the issue they're working on fixing. I don't pretend to understand all the details behind it all, but even when you have 700-800 nits, if you have very high nit content you have to compress that to fit below our real display nits. So even though it may or may not be as apparent, we're still dealing with the issue because we are in effect changing the brightness by definition. And indeed, I have played with the desat options on some higher nit content and can see very clearly even though I'm outputting 700 nits in HDR that saturation is impacted. What concerns me about that is even when doing passthrough to our display, we don't necessarily know how the tone mapping algorithm they're using handles this. madshi seems to think they're using dumb desat across the board in most cases. Ultimately whether you think you're impacted or not, the question is valid....since you don't have a 10k nit display, how do you KNOW you have it right? And from the content I've looked at so far, this seems more than a theoretical discussion....even for us.

[VBB]

I've been using HDR pass-through since I first got my OLED, but I've always wondered how much of a difference there really is. My 960 is not powerful enough, so I'll have to wait a while longer. I don't watch a lot of HDR content, but when I do, it looks so good that I don't feel like I'm missing anything. The only thing I did back when was to calibrate the high 2-point, and I disabled DTM and lowered color from 55 to 50 (this is now default on the newer models).

[QBhd]

I am fairly sure there are three different tonemapping curves in the C8. These are triggered by the MDL of the video being watched. The reason for my thoughts here are based on the 20-pt whitepoint settings... Looking at the second last code value we can trigger 3 different ones. 669,696, and 713. Most video seems to have an MDL of 1000 and there are some with 4000. The code value of a 1000 MDL video is 696 and the 4000 MDL video has a code value of 713... This is with HDR passthrough.

So how does this relate to madVR? Well it seems that when you use pixel shaders and output in HDR you are actually setting an MDL in the output with the "display peak luminance". I tracked down where the different code values switch.

DPL = display peak luminance
CV19 = the second last code value of the 20-pt settings

DPL 20-760 ==> CV19 is 669
DPL 760-2500 ==> CV19 is 696
DPL 2501-10000 ==> CV19 is 713

I keep seeing people saying that there is a way to disable the LG's tonemapping by setting the DPL to something like 700, but I am pretty sure every panel will have tonemapping at all times since the HDR into the TV needs to be mapped to the abilities of the panel.

Am I missing something here? I just think that capping the DPL to 700 is missing some of the potential for the top end highlights and for no reason since the TV will tonemap regardless.

QB

[quietvoid]

It is pretty complicated to desaturate even at 700 nits indeed, especially when we're talking about 2000+ nits source content.
I've compared the S&M UHD benchmark with madVR and the TV makes little effort to desaturate in order to retain more detail/contrast. I've posted this before but here are pertinent photos: https://slow.pics/c/fyivVAOB
The TV just displays a colored blob :)


I've been using HDR pass-through since I first got my OLED, but I've always wondered how much of a difference there really is. My 960 is not powerful enough, so I'll have to wait a while longer. I don't watch a lot of HDR content, but when I do, it looks so good that I don't feel like I'm missing anything. The only thing I did back when was to calibrate the high 2-point, and I disabled DTM and lowered color from 55 to 50 (this is now default on the newer models).
You're very much missing out, I watched Parasite (2019) straight from Kodi once and was disappointed when windows and skies were just plain clipped white :(
These days I'm too lazy to boot into Windows to use madVR though.. so Dolby Vision it is.


Am I missing something here? I just think that capping the DPL to 700 is missing some of the potential for the top end highlights and for no reason since the TV will tonemap regardless.


In the beginning it was established that 760 was the max nits one should set to have the highest brightness, however with panel variance etc. people just left it at 700 IIRC, to avoid surprises.

[VBB]

This is why it would be fantastic for future models to have an option (outside of the service menu, preferably) to disable tone mapping altogether, like what HGIG does for gaming.

[quietvoid]

This is why it would be fantastic for future models to have an option (outside of the service menu, preferably) to disable tone mapping altogether, like what HGIG does for gaming.

For what it's worth, the 2019 models (and above?) can set their own custom tonemap curves, though the color is probably still mapped by the TV.

[SamuriHL]

I keep seeing people saying that there is a way to disable the LG's tonemapping by setting the DPL to something like 700, but I am pretty sure every panel will have tonemapping at all times since the HDR into the TV needs to be mapped to the abilities of the panel.

Am I missing something here? I just think that capping the DPL to 700 is missing some of the potential for the top end highlights and for no reason since the TV will tonemap regardless.

QB

I don't believe anyone has tried to make the claim that using a ceiling of 700 nits DISABLES tone mapping. At least I'm not aware of anyone making that claim. What our thoughts are on this is that it will use the least aggressive tone curve. Which is about the best case we can get.

[SamuriHL]

This is why it would be fantastic for future models to have an option (outside of the service menu, preferably) to disable tone mapping altogether, like what HGIG does for gaming.

Seriously. Better than that, however, would be a 4000 nit panel. LOL

[VBB]

OLED will be long dead before it ever reaches such high nit levels, but you know that ;)

Makes me wonder what 2021 will bring, and if it will be worth upgrading or waiting even longer. First world problems...

[SamuriHL]

I don't believe I said a 4000 nit _OLED_ display! :p :D Yea, I'm looking forward to new display tech that keeps the fidelity we get from OLED but cranks up the NIT level. Ideally we want to get AWAY from tone mapping. I want to obsolete both DTM and DV. Obviously there's stuff over 4k nits but it's rare and I'm willing to allow the display to tone map "down" to 4k nits. ;)

[Magik Mark]

Guys,

Can you share resource on HDR Tone mapping using madvr? Most of the resources are converting HDR -> SDR.
But how about just plain HDR Tone mapping? I would like to compare it with LGs built in DTM

[huhn]

you have to understand that they are both in the end tone mapping to SDR.

so you if you are sure you can defeat the DTM just test it everything that applies to SDR applies to this too you simply have the issue of not really knowing how much of what you see is madVR tone mapping and how much is the TV.

[VBB]

Mark, that's what I was getting at above. I would also like to compare, but I need a better video card for that :(

SamuriHL and chros should be able to tell you more.

Oh, and I just realized you said DTM. If you want to stay true to the original, you want to turn that off. DTM is what LG does on top of its normal tone mapping, and it's all over the place.

[SamuriHL]

There's no easy "set this and you're done" kind of thing with these beta builds. And I can tell you, everyone has their own preferences and what they're going after. It may seem like it'd be "easy" to set it for HDR output but it can be challenging. I know some people post their settings. Take a look at NeoXP's settings and maybe start there, and tweak it to your liking.

[Magik Mark]

I'm now using NeoXP's. It looks really good. May I ask your preferred setting?

NeoXp's uses SDR feature of my OLED with gamma 2.4. Image a little bit dim. Is there a way to make it 2.2 using madvr tone mapping?

[VBB]

Neo has a really old OLED, that's why he does it. You want to use HDR to HDR tone mapping with his settings, but nits adjusted to 700 and "send HDR meta data" checked. Correct me if I'm wrong, guys.

[Magik Mark]

You are right VBB!

Just curious, shall I leave "dynamic target nics" alone?

[chros]

Mark, that's what I was getting at above. I would also like to compare, but I need a better video card for that :(
I thought the 960 *can* do pixelshader HDR output, it's not that weaker than the 1060 6GB (and mine is underclocked!). Try out this:
- use d3d11-native
- use b114
- use these settings (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-60025149) from b113 and let the new options alone in b114
- disable Contrast recovery, it consumes more power when it kicks in (e.g. NeoXP doesn't use it at all)
- enable "Compromise on HDR luminance ..."
- I use NGU Sharp Low for chroma with the above settings, you may have to go lower a bit

Lemme know if it helps or not, it should work with 2160p@23p!!! :)

It is pretty complicated to desaturate even at 700 nits indeed, especially when we're talking about 2000+ nits source content.
As I said in the avs thread, I used desat 1+2 with b113, I tested back in the day and sometimes it made a difference.

These days I'm too lazy to boot into Windows to use madVR though.. so Dolby Vision it is.
:D same here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1927703#post1927703).

I am fairly sure there are three different tonemapping curves in the C8.
...
So how does this relate to madVR? Well it seems that when you use pixel shaders and output in HDR you are actually setting an MDL in the output with the "display peak luminance". I tracked down where the different code values switch.
...
Am I missing something here? I just think that capping the DPL to 700 is missing some of the potential for the top end highlights and for no reason since the TV will tonemap regardless.
Almost, but it's a bit more complicated than this: take a look at this (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/post-58739264) if you haven't seen it yet :)
But normally you'd measure your HDR light output with a meter (and e.g. HCFR) with a 1% window (on a 65" screen) and that's what you set for DPN in madvr. And on 2018 Oleds the built-in hdr peak is set to 700 (unlike with >=2019 sets where you can adjust it).

[SamuriHL]

You are right VBB!

Just curious, shall I leave "dynamic target nics" alone?That's a setting you'll have to play with. In fact with the latest build I have to go readjust it myself. It impacts how bright the image looks so you want to check really bright scenes with it. Just adjust it til it looks good to you.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[VBB]

Lemme know if it helps or not, it should work with 2160p@23p!!! :)
Thanks! I'll give it a shot tonight.

[oldpainlesskodi]

Hi,

Firstly, sorry if this question is well trodden, but being new to the LG OLED, thought I'd ask here,as a lot of boards out there are contradictory.

Re the Color Gamut option - there are wide, extended and auto options.

Is it best left to auto for both SDR and HDR playback? or wide for HDR and extended for SDR?

Perhaps someone can enlighten me on what these options "really do"

Thanks

UPDATE - figured it out myself through testing.

[VBB]

For normal use, you want to leave them both on AUTO and set madVR to BT.709 for SDR. For LUT use, you want to set SDR to WIDE and set madVR to DCI-P3, just in case (it is unclear at the moment how that option interacts with the LUTs, at least in the latest beta). In PC mode, at least on the older models, the gamut is locked to WIDE, so you'll have to set madVR to DCI-P3, even if you don't use a LUT.

[oldpainlesskodi]

Thanks.

[Magik Mark]

Guys, Do you happen to know an ICC Profile for LG Oleds?

[bombadilio]

I have tried a number of months without interpolation on my LG C9, after many years of using SVP, I have to say I don't know how people can be happy to watch 24p on a modern/good OLED without some compensation for motion/judderyness. With BFI mode enabled on the C9 at least, its too flickery as it only has an off/on mode. The "on" mode is very flickery compared to the low mode on the C10 and newer. (I welcome C10 inputs on this discussion when set to low).

We all know OLED is "perfectly" juddery as the OLED is doing as its supposed to do in 24p mode and we can get attached to that as being the 'directors intent'. I'm all for that, but I highly doubt that exactness / judderyness is what the director intended (how will we ever know eh?).

I really like SVP and its varying ranges of smoothness it allows, to over come this. Now it allows a pure avisynth_filter based way of engaging it, without the need for ffdshow. I think the whole "soap opera affect" is really over emphasised. This SVP smoothness looks fantastic to me and all of my relatives, SVP being engaged in a medium smoothness mode. It shouldn't be shunned so badly as "soap opera affect" and dismissed so badly/quickly.

In a way its like saying upscaling is "soap opera affect" (i.e. this is not natural, of course it isn't natural and that's the point, its to get as close to what the director intended, and that's not always exactly what's in the content/blu-ray, he/she probably didn't intend us to see a juddery image of 24p on an OLED right, just like he/she didn't intend us upscaling the resolution in crazy/great ways that we can do with modern hardware??)

I really look forward to this forum discussion move past it being "soap opera affect" and move into looking at ways to make our resulting image moving towards the true directors intent, which we all know is not a juddery 24p which a lot of us are seeing on these super modern OLEDs.

I'm not sure what the end solution will be though SVP and some tweaks to its settings (everyone is welcome to share their settings), or madVR (down the road possibly).

Thanks! Would love your input Mark, SVP has an update that works with AVISynth + MadVR. I just can't seem to figure out how to tell if SVP is activated when using MadVR.

Do you know how to check? So far it seems to be working.

I am currently using:
Asus Rampage V X99 + 5930 @4.4ghs | EVGA FTW3 3090 | Creative Sonic Carrier Dolby Atmos | LG 55"CX | MPC-BE x64 -Madvr / AviSynth / SVP

[mark0077]

Thanks! Would love your input Mark, SVP has an update that works with AVISynth + MadVR. I just can't seem to figure out how to tell if SVP is activated when using MadVR.

Do you know how to check? So far it seems to be working.

I am currently using:
Asus Rampage V X99 + 5930 @4.4ghs | EVGA FTW3 3090 | Creative Sonic Carrier Dolby Atmos | LG 55"CX | MPC-BE x64 -Madvr / AviSynth / SVP

Yeah I can try to help, but it might be best for the SVP forum. If you right click on the SVP menu and make sure it's set to show it's OSD if you want to be sure it's active. Also clicking on the tray icon while content is playing will show whether it's active or not (if your like me and don't want OSD). I just got the latest avisynth filter and enabled that in MPC external filter list, and disabled ffdshow. SVP on the fly injects it's scripts into the running avisynth filter instance while it's running.

[PetitDragon]

I just got the latest avisynth filter and enabled that in MPC external filter list, and disabled ffdshow.

hi mark,

could you post the link of that latest avisynth filter for me. TIA! :thanks:

[mark0077]

hi mark,

could you post the link of that latest avisynth filter for me. TIA! :thanks:

Sure. This is the GitHub page. https://github.com/CrendKing/avisynth_filter
This is the discussion thread on the SVP forum also https://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5877&p=3

[VBB]

Feels like we haven't talked about smooth motion in a while :D

[SamuriHL]

All fixed up in the latest betas. Have at it. :D

[chros]

Feels like we haven't talked about smooth motion in a while :D
Screw SM, I don't like it :) But you forgot to reply: how's your 960 dealing with hdr pixelshader? :)

[VBB]

Oh hai! Yes, I know. I've actually switched back to SM and non-PC mode LMAO. Been re-watching Westworld in UHD, and I just couldn't handle the banding anymore after torturing myself through season one :)

Didn't forget. Just haven't had the willpower to test it LOL