MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[quietvoid]

@chros So I managed to find a scene where black bars are consistently elevated if you want to test: https://0x0.st/-p6H.mkv
I only get raised bars before the full black cut.

Tested all settings + service menu and I can't get rid of it.
As soon as I upload my 1D LUT, it happens.

[chros]

I just have a calibrated 1D LUT and an absolute colorimetric BT2020 to DCI-P3 3D LUT generated with DisplayCal, both uploaded to the TV.
Both contrast and colors look a lot better than factory for me.

Only issue is that for some reason black bars are randomly grey during playback.
Full field black isn't so I have no idea why that happens :(
Now as you mentioned, I saw this (at least) once: it was with a bravia core content (don't remember which one), but most of those titles are full range (!), not limited, so I thought it's the source (and I haven't checked in other factory preset).

@chros So I managed to find a scene where black bars are consistently elevated if you want to test: https://0x0.st/-p6H.mkv
I only get raised bars before the full black cut.

Tested all settings + service menu and I can't get rid of it.
As soon as I upload my 1D LUT, it happens.
That's weird, for me this file is fine, no raised black bars before black screen, I tried:
- a preset with custom 1dlut + factory 3dlut
- a preset with both custom 1d/3dlut
- madvr (b113) and TV set to limited or full range signal
- ASBL is disabled in Service menu here as well (there's no GSR OFF option for me with the old firmware I use)

But you know guys, you have newer firmware in your C8 compared to my B8, LG did some change in newer firmwares to them due to the chrominance overshoot fix, so who knows.
Maybe @SamuriHL can try this for you, if he also has 1dlut uploaded for hdr10.

Is factory preset fine with this, e.g. Cinema Home?

[chros]

Ok, so I was able to give that a quick test. I can indeed strip the bt.2020 flag out of the HDR signal. TV reports HDR and enables HDR mode but does NOT report bt.2020. So that's fun. :D It's a real pain in the ass to set up on the Integral 2, too, however. Nonetheless it does seem to do what you want.
Thank You! Exactly what we were wondering about.
Questions:
- do you remember any picture mode change (new hdmi handshake) when you enabled/disabled the flag? (there's none using SDR and enabling/disabling it via madvr)
- did you see any color difference with and without it? (I don't see any using SDR)

Now I'll write a request about this, again, to madshi, if he can / is willing to implement it ... Come over there and support it, otherwise nothing will happen :)

[chros]

Oh, and aiopylgtv added methods (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/commit/711abda131203ea9dc3076736f96b3316af7a5bb) to switch picture presets (with this hack (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/commit/e2607dd8bb51b057e6197e0c6b5f9dfe2310d862) :D), this is really useful not to use UI elements on screen that can modify image with HDR10/DoVi content:
aiopylgtvcommand 192.168.1.78 set_current_picture_mode expert2

[SamuriHL]

But you know guys, you have newer firmware in your C8 compared to my B8, LG did some change in newer firmwares to them due to the chrominance overshoot fix, so who knows.
Maybe @SamuriHL can try this for you, if he also has 1dlut uploaded for hdr10.

Is factory preset fine with this, e.g. Cinema Home?

I don't ever touch factory 1dlut for this very reason. I have mentioned it before that there seems to be some LG bug with 1dlut causing raised blacks. It's been discussed in both the ColourSpace and Calman threads numerous times. Although Calman claims to have worked around it with something they call a "shadow detail tweaker" whatever the hell that means. With ColourSpace we don't bother with 1dlut and just create a 3dlut, but, not for HDR. So I can't really help here. I can tell you I don't have any raised black issues with the way I've calibrated.

[SamuriHL]

Thank You! Exactly what we were wondering about.
Questions:
- do you remember any picture mode change (new hdmi handshake) when you enabled/disabled the flag? (there's none using SDR and enabling/disabling it via madvr)
- did you see any color difference with and without it? (I don't see any using SDR)

Now I'll write a request about this, again, to madshi, if he can / is willing to implement it ... Come over there and support it, otherwise nothing will happen :)

That's a difficult question to answer because using the Integral2 to change the flag it most definitely did an HDMI handshake because of the way I have to do it. So my test isn't valid to answer that question in the way you're looking for.

The answer to question 2 is also difficult. There isn't an option to just strip bt.2020. You have to force a container change so in my case there was a color difference but only because of how I modified the signal by forcing it into an RGB full container. Now if I had output that from my HTPC from the start, it'd probably work without color issues.

I was only really looking to see if it really stripped the bt.2020 flag and not focused on much else. But it definitely seems to do what you're looking for. That being said, madshi posted a ton of information on AVS that I don't fully follow. I kind of do. The way you calibrate HDR on these tv's is in gamma 2.2. Internally the TV converts gamma 2.2 to PQ, much like what madshi was saying. Calman for sure uses 2.2 to calibrate HDR and I'm pretty sure the C9 and above users calibrate the same way in ColourSpace. But these LG panels assume 2.2 and likely store the LUT internally as 2.2, although that's a guess on my part and could be wildly wrong. Maybe it's converting the 2.2 to PQ when it stores the lut, I don't really know for sure. This discussion is WAY above my pay grade. This is not an area I have any real knowledge in. Only what I've read.

[SamuriHL]

I'm still following the discussion between omarank and madshi with great interest. omarank is explaining it very well. As I said, the calibration software generates the lut in 2.2 and the display internally converts that to PQ. He's telling madshi that for madvr to convert that to PQ to send to the lut is wrong. And I think I agree with that assessment. This is exciting if madshi will be convinced because if he makes that change, or at least allows a test of that theory, this could provide us with a VERY kuel option!!!

[quietvoid]

But you know guys, you have newer firmware in your C8 compared to my B8, LG did some change in newer firmwares to them due to the chrominance overshoot fix, so who knows.

Is factory preset fine with this, e.g. Cinema Home?

Yea it might be related to the firmware, since it's mostly happening when the actual video adjacent to the bars is near black.
Factory preset Cinema restores the bars back to black.

I tried reencoding and cropping the bars, but the result is the same so it's on the TV.

Oh well, I guess I'll have to live with it for the better PQ tracking.

I don't ever touch factory 1dlut for this very reason. I have mentioned it before that there seems to be some LG bug with 1dlut causing raised blacks. It's been discussed in both the ColourSpace and Calman threads numerous times. Although Calman claims to have worked around it with something they call a "shadow detail tweaker" whatever the hell that means. With ColourSpace we don't bother with 1dlut and just create a 3dlut, but, not for HDR. So I can't really help here. I can tell you I don't have any raised black issues with the way I've calibrated.

Yea there are multiple mentions of raised blacks with 1D LUTs.

Calman's shadow detail seems to be about altering the 1D LUT values to increase brightness in shadows, but that has nothing to do with the black point.
It might be useful for daytime watching (ala 2.2 gamma instead of 2.4 during the day).

I have no idea how to create a 3D LUT that would include gamma fixes for HDR. So a 1D LUT Is still unavoidable for me.

[SamuriHL]

Yea there are multiple mentions of raised blacks with 1D LUTs.

Calman's shadow detail seems to be about altering the 1D LUT values to increase brightness in shadows, but that has nothing to do with the black point.
It might be useful for daytime watching (ala 2.2 gamma instead of 2.4 during the day).


Ah, ok. I don't have a current license for it so haven't really looked too much into what it's doing. That makes sense though.


I have no idea how to create a 3D LUT that would include gamma fixes for HDR. So a 1D LUT Is still unavoidable for me.

You can't. The only 3dlut you can create for HDR on these panels is a matrix lut for the primary colors. It's not useful. All the grayscale stuff has to be done in the 1dlut which puts you in a catch 22.

[ashlar42]

Oh, and aiopylgtv added methods (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/commit/711abda131203ea9dc3076736f96b3316af7a5bb) to switch picture presets (with this hack (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/commit/e2607dd8bb51b057e6197e0c6b5f9dfe2310d862) :D), this is really useful not to use UI elements on screen that can modify image with HDR10/DoVi content:
aiopylgtvcommand 192.168.1.78 set_current_picture_mode expert2
Is there a command line interface somewhere? Or one needs to use python?

[quietvoid]

The package setup creates an alias for aiopylgtvcommand but it's still all based on Python.

[chros]

Is there a command line interface somewhere? Or one needs to use python?
You can easily install it on Windows:
A. Install python
- https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-382/
- - python-3.8.2-amd64
- check Install launcher for all users
- check Add Python 3.8 to path
- select custom install: select the path, e.g. D:\Progs
B. Install aiopylgtv
- download: https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/archive/master.zip
- unzip it: d:\Progs\aiopylgtv\
cd d:\Progs\aiopylgtv\
pip install --upgrade .
- to try it out (TV must be on!):
aiopylgtvcommand 192.168.1.78 info_button
- - it will create the .aiopylgtv.sqlite db at first run
- - although it can be run from any directory, but .aiopylgtv.sqlite has to be copied into that directory!!!

[chros]

The answer to question 2 is also difficult. There isn't an option to just strip bt.2020. You have to force a container change so in my case there was a color difference but only because of how I modified the signal by forcing it into an RGB full container. Now if I had output that from my HTPC from the start, it'd probably work without color issues.
I see, thanks for checking.

Yea it might be related to the firmware, since it's mostly happening when the actual video adjacent to the bars is near black.
Factory preset Cinema restores the bars back to black.

I tried reencoding and cropping the bars, but the result is the same so it's on the TV.

Bloody LG, always screws up something ... Such an incompetent bunch of fellows :)

[chros]

@quietvoid, about FireStick and DoVi: people in the new Sony threads (A80J, A90J) complained about that certain external devices (Firestick, Roku, etc., but Shield is ok) produce darker image while streaming DoVi content on them compared to the built-in apps on the TV. They came to the conclusion that probably these devices utilize player-led DoVi and not TV-led.

I also use FireStick for streaming and with Kodi (with your patches), so after reading the above, I started to compare Netflix (ATV+ and Disney+ apps are not available with the old firmware) DoVi content with the built-in app and from Firestick (using the same DoVi picture preset): I also noticed that the image is just a bit darker using FireStick. It's not a night and day difference as with Sonys but it's there.
Plus we know, that the Oppo has to be set to TV-led manually, because Auto triggers player-led.

What do you think, have you noticed anything about this? Unfortunately I couldn't test this (as I did with the Oppo DoVi upconverting feature), since I don't have proper test content for this.

[SamuriHL]

I agree with your LG assessment. Sigh

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

[quietvoid]

@quietvoid, about FireStick and DoVi: people in the new Sony threads (A80J, A90J) complained about that certain external devices (Firestick, Roku, etc., but Shield is ok) produce darker image while streaming DoVi content on them compared to the built-in apps on the TV. They came to the conclusion that probably these devices utilize player-led DoVi and not TV-led.

I also use FireStick for streaming and with Kodi (with your patches), so after reading the above, I started to compare Netflix (ATV+ and Disney+ apps are not available with the old firmware) DoVi content with the built-in app and from Firestick (using the same DoVi picture preset): I also noticed that the image is just a bit darker using FireStick. It's not a night and day difference as with Sonys but it's there.
Plus we know, that the Oppo has to be set to TV-led manually, because Auto triggers player-led.

What do you think, have you noticed anything about this? Unfortunately I couldn't test this (as I did with the Oppo DoVi upconverting feature), since I don't have proper test content for this.

I've compared a couple times but couldn't really notice a brightness difference.
I just know the black level is wrong for both webOS apps and the Firestick, so contrast 99 for both.

These days I stream Netflix using Kodi on the Firestick since it's a lot more convenient, and I don't have to deal with adaptive quality changes as opposed to the official apps.

[chros]

I've compared a couple times but couldn't really notice a brightness difference.
Yes, it's not (much/any?) brightness diff with our LG but as I said earlier LG disables the same image processing with player-led DoVi just as in PC mode, resulting in posterization in dark scenes (and who knows what else that we haven't noticed yet).

These days I stream Netflix using Kodi on the Firestick since it's a lot more convenient, and I don't have to deal with adaptive quality changes as opposed to the official apps.
Interesting, can you point out what/how needs to be installed? Thanks

[quietvoid]

Interesting, can you point out what/how needs to be installed? Thanks

The Netflix add-on is required: https://github.com/CastagnaIT/plugin.video.netflix
Properly installed you should be able to get automatic highest quality, as well as the option to change both audio/video streams.

There is a FAQ here: https://github.com/CastagnaIT/plugin.video.netflix/wiki/FAQ-%28Audio%2C-Video%2C-Subtitle%2C-Other%29#my-android-device-supports-4k-but-does-not-playback-at-4k

[huhn]

how terrible is a end of 2020 CX6 in game/PC mode?

[chros]

I think Asmodian has a CX, what we know, that:
- they finally fixed banding in PC mode
- but posterization is still there in dark scenes
- we don't know anything about potential color issues with hdr10 (that plagued 2018 LGs) (this one also happens in normal mode)

And who knows what else they screwed up :) (banding, grid, etc)
Do you want to get one?

@quietvoid: thanks, I'll try it out.

[huhn]

after 5 month of torture i can finally return my xh90 so yes i need a new TV and there are no new TVs available it's like the GPU market.

so i found a 55cx6 for ~1100 and if it is one of the better oled for PC use with 120 HZ and VRR than that's a very not bad alternative.
i would prefer a 65 one but tehy cost a lot more for only a small size upgrade so that just feels bad and the last year cx is not available here in 65 anymore.

i wanted a bad samsung 65q70t but they are not available anymore and the q70a is an abomination that should be burned with fire.

[chros]

after 5 month of torture i can finally return my xh90
What was the issue with xh90?

q70a is an abomination that should be burned with fire
:D I'd never buy LCD ever again ...

a 55cx6 for ~1100 and if it is one of the better oled for PC use with 120 HZ and VRR
Price is not bad (as it was 2 years ago), but be prepared that no TV is perfect, as we all know. Buy from a place with big return window (at least 2 weeks), if there's anything with it (banding, tinting, grid, etc) just return the whole set (not just panel replacement by LG) and try another one!

I understand that for us who already has a working TV, it's not that urgent to buy something now. That's why most of us haven't bought a CX (LG dumbed it down for whatever reason), this year's C1 is dumbed down again (no stand for G1).
What we understand now is, that next year (again) "new" panels will be introduced with modified pixel structure, so maybe 2022 LG models will be the way to go, and hopefully they return to the 1 high end line for C2/G2/etc. We will see.
But personally I refuse to pay the opening price, so that means almost 2 years from now for me, if (!) all will be good with those models.

1 last note about LGs: they have a very bad history with firmware updates, so only upgrade the firmware if you desperately need a bugfix or new feature :)

If you go on the Oled route, feel free to ask us anything in the future :)

[huhn]

xh90 is literally a scam.
it's advertised with 4K 120 where it downscales to 1080 and than up again using bilinear. lots of TV have this problem this year because they use the same low end mediatek chip.
even through is advertised it can't do VRR at all and the TV is a year old.

OLED are generally not for me i manage to burn in an IPS TV i don't change my self for a device.

beware the CX6 i ordered is a European version from the end of 2020 so it could be quite different which i don't like it only has 1 tuner for example really interest what Asmodian has to say about this device.

[chros]

xh90 is literally a scam.
Yeah, I heard the same about 900H, and I'd put a large sum on the same will happen with this years A80J/A90J Oleds as well. :)

the CX6 i ordered is a European version from the end of 2020 so it could be quite different
I don't think they are any different in terms of image functionality and potential bugs :)

[quietvoid]

I see you guys talking about 3D LUTs but I don't understand what more it would bring for HDR. :o
Never used LUTs in madVR but I have them uploaded to the TV already.

[chros]

HDR10 has the color issues due to bt2020 3dlut processing on 2018 LG Oleds (we don't know how newer models behave). If you remove the bt2020 3dlut, the issue is gone, but obviously you get desaturated colors. That's where the new madvr feature comes in.
E. g. that's why jk82 never watched hdr10 content on his C8!
(But if you only have 700 hours in your 2 years old TV then probably you missed this :))

As I said there (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-60852164), it even fixed weird colors in PC mode (that are not present in normal mode), banding and near black posterization are still there. (This is how 3dluts work (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-60844190) in our LG Oleds)

Anyway, if we manage to create an acceptable 3dlut for this, hdr10 watching will be enjoyable again :)

[quietvoid]

Hm, I removed the factory 3D LUT but replaced it with the synthetic one, and increased Color to 55 on my HDR10 settings.
Can't see anything desaturated (or at least noticeably so).

Would be nice to be able to do an actual color calibration, but I'm not sure why it would be better to use it with madVR compared to uploading into the TV.

[SamuriHL]

The issue is you can't upload a proper 3D LUT for HDR to the C8. It just doesn't work. So the idea is if you can get rid of the internal 3D LUT on the C8 for HDR and then create a proper one for madvr and let it correct before sending it to the C8, we will get far better and more accurate color representation than what can be done natively on the panel. So if madshi implements the option chros asked for, we'll be able to create a color accurate 3D LUT for madvr and bypass the stupid s*** the C8 is doing. That is indeed quite exciting.

EDIT: Of course I'll have to figure out how to replicate what you did in displaycal, chros. I'd like to use ColourSpace to replicate your success.

[huhn]

Yeah, I heard the same about 900H, and I'd put a large sum on the same will happen with this years A80J/A90J Oleds as well. :)
they are the same just us name and eu name.
the xj90 has full reso in sdr and is supposed to have the same issue in HDR they don't ship with VRR no soiny TV up to this day has VRR.

I don't think they are any different in terms of image functionality and potential bugs :)

it's supposed to be released at the 20.10.20. i will not be happy anyway it's part of been an TV owner

[j82k]

So, 3 days ago I got a LG C1. One of the main reasons for the upgrade was the messed up HDR mode of the C8. Other than for testing I never watched HDR on that TV for the last year or so. I used madVR to tonemap to SDR, which means ~340 nits.

And now suddenly we have this 'fix' that chros discovered. I just tried it with a synthetic madVR 3LUT (BT2020 G2.2 to P3-D65 G2.2) and put that into the BT2020 slot in madVR. For the C8 I used my manually calibrated 1DLUT + unity 3DLUT.

Checked all the scenes I remembered that show the cyan/magenta issue and they all looked okay, usually watching these makes me wanna puke. :)

I have now put the C8 and C1 side by side for comparison. The C1 is playing files from usb.
In this direct comparison the C8 still shows a bit more saturation than the C1 in problematic dark scenes but it doesn't show these ugly oversatrurated color transitions anymore.
Brighter scenes look very similar on the two TVs, so I guess that means that this method retains accurate EOTF tracking and saturation.

Now I'm strongly considering sending the C1 back. BFI is a huge disappointment, near-black overshoot still exists and I think I actually prefer the original weaker dithering of the C8 which is what you'll get when uploading a 1DLUT or if you stayed on an old firmware.

If only this was discovered a week ago, it could've saved me a lot of hassle. :)

[SamuriHL]

Holy s***! If that's not a testament to this I don't know what is!!!!!!!!

[chros]

Hm, I removed the factory 3D LUT but replaced it with the synthetic one, and increased Color to 55 on my HDR10 settings. Can't see anything desaturated (or at least noticeably so).
Of course, you modified Color (cheater! :) ) and you still have 3dlut in place (the synthetic one), remove that one by uploading a unity one:
aiopylgtvcommand 192.168.1.78 upload_3d_lut_bt2020 hdr_cinema

Would be nice to be able to do an actual color calibration, but I'm not sure why it would be better to use it with madVR compared to uploading into the TV.
What baffles me that apart from only couple of us no one was complaining about this stupid hdr10 color issues with 2018 models (not just here, but anywhere)!
Test it with The Witcher sample (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1925528#post1925528) (hdr10 vs DoVi) :)

we will get far better and more accurate color representation
I don't think we can talk about color "accuracy" with HDR10 at all :) Let's not call it calibration when they measure only 3 colors in 2021! :D

So if madshi implements the option chros asked for, we'll be able to create a color accurate 3D LUT for madvr and bypass the stupid s*** the C8 is doing.
Unfortunately, it still won't be color "accurate" with 2018 models: as omarank pointed out, we can't disable TV's tonemapping in PQ space in any way. (But I don't think this would be a big issue, still better than the washed out colors in calibration mode).

EDIT: Of course I'll have to figure out how to replicate what you did in displaycal, chros. I'd like to use ColourSpace to replicate your success.
Beware that CS (at least a year ago) had to do some extra step during 3dlut creation for madvr that completely screwed up colors (I only talk about simple SDR 3dluts). At that time Manni was really pissed off about them, not implementing it properly (CS works in full range internally, madvr requires limited signal).

So, if that's still the case, then just leave it, and do it with displaycal.
As I said there (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/madvr-argyllcms.1471169/post-60851944) I had to raise gamma to (actually) 2.11 (!) to do not get crushed shadow details (obviously normal scenes are way bright now), but maybe enabling "black point compensation" with curves+matrix profile will help it.
The good thing about it, that profiling is pretty fast measuring only 34 patches (grayscale+RGB), so lot variations can be tried out.

[chros]

And now suddenly we have this 'fix' that chros discovered.
Actually You were the one who started to suspect bt2020 3dlut processing being the culprit at that time you reported (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1890535#post1890535) this (more than 1 and a half a year ago :) ). Of course at that time we didn't have the tools to verify this, and we just saw this working when we started to play with 1dluts (half a year ago).
I just put the pieces together :)

I just tried it with a synthetic madVR 3LUT (BT2020 G2.2 to P3-D65 G2.2) and put that into the BT2020 slot in madVR. For the C8 I used my manually calibrated 1DLUT + unity 3DLUT.
Can you please post screenshots of the 3 window (2 icm profile and 1 3dlut window) with settings you used? (e.g. onto imgbox)

I'm asking this, because every setting can make an impact (top nits, gamma on icm and 3dlut windows, rendering intent / etc).
I tried out at least 20 (!) different synthetic 3dluts (with same 1dlut uploaded into 2 presets) but none of them came close to the factory 3dlut (not that it has to be the etalon, but that's the only thing we can compare to).

Checked all the scenes I remembered that show the cyan/magenta issue and they all looked okay, usually watching these makes me wanna puke. :)
:D I know, I can't stand it either, that's why I started to use DoVi for everything I could.

I have now put the C8 and C1 side by side for comparison. The C1 is playing files from usb.
In this direct comparison the C8 still shows a bit more saturation than the C1 in problematic dark scenes but it doesn't show these ugly oversatrurated color transitions anymore.
Brighter scenes look very similar on the two TVs, so I guess that means that this method retains accurate EOTF tracking and saturation.
Nice, amazing that you have side-by-side setup now! :)
That's why I'd like to try out with synthetic 3dlut with Your settings to see how it goes.

Not sure you've seen this (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1946431#post1946431), it's just amazing!
Create separate batch files (bat/cmd) for them, and you can use my tool (https://github.com/chros73/madvr-js-remote) or SirMaster's (https://github.com/nicko88/HTPCRemote) to easily toggle between them!
I have setup mine to have 4 buttons for: 2 for madvr (passthrough, DTM) and 2 for LG (HDR Cinema, HDR Technicolor). So just pushing 2 buttons you can easily compare the images :)

BFI is a huge disappointment, near-black overshoot still exists
Why BFI is disappointing? Causing more near-black overshoot?

I think I actually prefer the original weaker dithering of the C8 which is what you'll get when uploading a 1DLUT or if you stayed on an old firmware.
I agree, what's the point of having it when it doesn't fix sh1t :D

[chros]

Now I'm strongly considering sending the C1 back. ... If only this was discovered a week ago, it could've saved me a lot of hassle. :)
Not necessarly, C1 can be still a significant improvement over the C8. Can you test these (after the break-in period, after 50/100 hours)? Especially if you have the 2 TVs side by side :)

1. banding should be largely reduced in HDR10 PC mode, test it with Mehanik's HDR10 test patterns (03. Grayscale\02. Ramps\01. Diagonal Ramp 400nit.mp4) (or any other clip that produce this on C8)
2. what about near black posterization in PC mode? (last part of this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1883108#post1883108) for sample)
3. does DoVi have raised black and still crush near black? (you can use DoVi samples from here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1931241#post1931241) and this one from Stacy (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/spears-munsil-uhd-hdr-benchmark-disc-discussion.3075780/page-43#post-59634582) (but that dual track, dual layer, so I can only play it with Oppo), more info (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1932220#post1932220)).

Please do the PC tests with RGB Full 12bit output in nvidia panel + madvr set to 10bit or higher.

[j82k]

Can you please post screenshots of the 3 window (2 icm profile and 1 3dlut window) with settings you used? (e.g. onto imgbox)

I'm asking this, because every setting can make an impact (top nits, gamma on icm and 3dlut windows, rendering intent / etc).
I tried out at least 20 (!) different synthetic 3dluts (with same 1dlut uploaded into 2 presets) but none of them came close to the factory 3dlut (not that it has to be the etalon, but that's the only thing we can compare to).


I just used the DCI-P3 D65 preset and changed gamma to 2.2 and in the 3D Lut Maker the standard BT2020 profile with gamma 2.2. White Level doesn't matter, I tried 100 nits and 10K nits, no difference.

Rendering intent absolute colorimeric for now but I'll probably try the other ones.

Why are you even trying to create a matrix LUT in displayCal? Couldn't you just enter your measured primaries into the ICC profile creator? That would get you the same result but without messing up the EOTF which you can do much better with the 1DLUT.

https://images2.imgbox.com/2d/34/fJX3KS7j_o.jpg (https://imgbox.com/fJX3KS7j)


Why BFI is disappointing? Causing more near-black overshoot?

Yes that and it also messes up the near-black range. I didn't even try to calibrate the TV with BFI as the increased overshoot is already reason enough to not use it.
Also I don't find that it actually helps with camera panning scenes with 24P content, it still looks like a stuttery mess.


Not necessarly, C1 can be still a significant improvement over the C8. Can you test these (after the break-in period, after 50/100 hours)? Especially if you have the 2 TVs side by side :)

1. banding should be largely reduced in HDR10 PC mode, test it with Mehanik's HDR10 test patterns (03. Grayscale\02. Ramps\01. Diagonal Ramp 400nit.mp4) (or any other clip that produce this on C8)
2. what about near black posterization in PC mode? (last part of this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1883108#post1883108) for sample)
3. does DoVi have raised black and still crush near black? (you can use DoVi samples from here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1931241#post1931241) and this one from Stacy (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/spears-munsil-uhd-hdr-benchmark-disc-discussion.3075780/page-43#post-59634582) (but that dual track, dual layer, so I can only play it with Oppo), more info (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1932220#post1932220)).

Please do the PC tests with RGB Full 12bit output in nvidia panel + madvr set to 10bit or higher.

I tried some of the scenes that show heavy posterization/color banding on the C8 in pc-mode. On the C1 they do look identical in pc-mode and non-pc mode. I even took some pictures for comparison but there really isn't anything to see as they look the same. That was with 8-bit though, haven't tried 12-bit.

So Pc-mode seems to be fixed on the C1 but for me this isn't that important as I use the TV 99% for movies/TV series and from viewing distance I don't see the benefit of 4:4:4 chroma.

Can't say anything about dolby vision, the only thing I tried was a dual layer mp4 remux that plays fine as dolby vision using the internal media player on the C8 but it only plays as HDR on the C1.

By the way the C1 is already packed up, waiting to be returned. I noticed some reverse vignetting on the left side and that bothered me more and more. The C8 has some too but it's mostly at the bottom which is much better than having it on the side.

[chros]

Yes that and it also messes up the near-black range. I didn't even try to calibrate the TV with BFI as the increased overshoot is already reason enough to not use it.
Also I don't find that it actually helps with camera panning scenes with 24P content, it still looks like a stuttery mess.
Interesting, thanks. That's just stunning, that I haven't heard/read about this anywhere, not from a single "reviewer" ... I'm sorry, influencer ... :)

I tried some of the scenes that show heavy posterization/color banding on the C8 in pc-mode. On the C1 they do look identical in pc-mode and non-pc mode. ... That was with 8-bit though, haven't tried 12-bit.
It should 8/12 bit shouldn't do a big difference though, but who knows.
That's good to hear you haven't noticed anything outstanding, maybe (!) they fixed it. I asked guys with CX on avs a year ago with the posterization sample I linked and they confirmed that it was still there with CX. I even told this to Stacy on bluray.com forum (he stated that PC mode is perfect now with CX), never heard back anything :)
There are CX owners here as well, I don't recall anyone tested it either. Myabe @huhn will be the first? :)

Pc-mode ... I use the TV 99% for movies/TV series and from viewing distance I don't see the benefit of 4:4:4 chroma.
That's strange, I do, easily! I can spot PC vs non-PC in a blind test easily from ~3m (not like just guessing with Lanczos vs NGU upscaling :) ). It's just way more sharper.

Can't say anything about dolby vision, the only thing I tried was a dual layer mp4 remux that plays fine as dolby vision using the internal media player on the C8 but it only plays as HDR on the C1.
Thanks, that confirms the lack of dual DoVi decoder chip in C1 as well, just as with CX (last models were the 2019 ones). Why LG removed it??? :)
@huhn, DoVi blacks should be fixed on CX (at least at the time with the firmware when Vincent created a video about it), you can test it with the BlackPludge pattern above (unfortunately Stacy's pattern needs an external bluray player).

By the way the C1 is already packed up, waiting to be returned.
:D That was quick! Sorry to hear that, at least you spare some money :)

I just used the DCI-P3 D65 preset and changed gamma to 2.2 and in the 3D Lut Maker the standard BT2020 profile with gamma 2.2. Rendering intent absolute colorimeric for now but I'll probably try the other ones.
Thanks for the screenshots, now I can create exactly the same.

White Level doesn't matter, I tried 100 nits and 10K nits, no difference.
It did for me when I uploaded those into the TV, but created different profiles for bt2020 icm as well. Let's see if it does for me with madvr.

Why are you even trying to create a matrix LUT in displayCal? Couldn't you just enter your measured primaries into the ICC profile creator? That would get you the same result but without messing up the EOTF which you can do much better with the 1DLUT.
Good question and point, dunno. We have to experiment with this and comparing to other preset what looks good or not.

Maybe I'll ask madshi about the synthetic profiles, what's his take on it, he knows the best how madvr works internally.

[huhn]

is it normal that the colors shift majorly even when you are 1 degree of angle? while it never ever get's as extreme as a VA panel is costly there even moving my head very slightly changes where the image is more red...

i'm trying to do a general setup for PC mode and madVR but wow these devices are terrible out of the box... i have to give sony here a clear advantage graphic or game mode and white point done that's all.

[chros]

is it normal that the colors shift majorly even when you are 1 degree of angle?
Yes, something to do with the coating of the screen I think.

general setup for PC mode and madVR but wow these devices are terrible out of the box
Yes, in PC mode LG lockes gamut to "Wide" mode (not "Auto", that would mean bt709) which means the panel native DCI-P3 colorspace, so all bt709 SDR content will be oversaturated without having a calibration. :)

[huhn]

genius...

and it looks like your gamut notice is correct while i have 3 option they all look 100 % the same.

so do i get this correctly that i can't have bt 709 SDR and bt 2020(DCI-P3 D65) at the same time? and i only get bt 709 after doing a full calibration(if that's even possible)?

just a reminder i payed for this device right? yes i did damn.

[j82k]

It should 8/12 bit shouldn't do a big difference though, but who knows.
That's good to hear you haven't noticed anything outstanding, maybe (!) they fixed it. I asked guys with CX on avs a year ago with the posterization sample I linked and they confirmed that it was still there with CX. I even told this to Stacy on bluray.com forum (he stated that PC mode is perfect now with CX), never heard back anything :)
There are CX owners here as well, I don't recall anyone tested it either. Myabe @huhn will be the first? :)


Here is a comparison of PC Mode. There might be a tiny difference in color but I couldn't see any posterization or color banding issues caused by PC-mode with the C1 in this or other scenes.
The C8 on the other hand.... :eek:

https://imgur.com/a/oRxVUC5

[chros]

https://imgur.com/a/oRxVUC5
Looks awesome, thanks, maybe they did fix it :) Now I will be curious of @huhn's test.

it looks like your gamut notice is correct while i have 3 option they all look 100 % the same.
So, you say that you can still select them in PC mode? That's weird, maybe an UI bug, that option should be greyed out and "Wide" selected.

so do i get this correctly that i can't have bt 709 SDR and bt 2020(DCI-P3 D65) at the same time?
What do you mean about "the same time"? (I don't understand.) And what do you mean about bt2020 here? Are we still talking about SDR?

and i only get bt 709 after doing a full calibration(if that's even possible)?
That's correct using bt709 SDR in PC mode: you can create a 3dlut for the TV or madvr to correct this.

just a reminder i payed for this device right? yes i did damn.
:D Yes, but it's not a big deal, you can correct this with calibration. Do you have an i1DiplayPro colorimeter?
Believe me, if everything else is working as it should (that you want to use), you hit the jackpot! :)

[SamuriHL]

I think what huhn is asking, and I could very well be misinterpreting here, is if you can use one mode for both rec.709 and bt.2020 (or in our case in reality dci-p3). You can. Each display mode has 2 3D LUT slots you can populate. You have to have the right software to calibrate them both at the same time but it's doable. I'm guessing DisplayCal can do it, too I just don't have experience with it. I have my bright mode calibrated with both rec.709 and bt.2020 LUTs. It works great.

If that's not what you were saying huhn, then I'm not sure.

[huhn]

So, you say that you can still select them in PC mode? That's weird, maybe an UI bug, that option should be greyed out and "Wide" selected.
it's worse/better...
it only work at all in PC mode it doesn't do anything outside of it
it's always doing nothing outside of PC mode and it always available in all modes i tested. if it is in instant response mode (this should trigger PC mode) freesync premium, isf dark cinema with and without deep cooler.

every still looks really really of even at auto which has the lowest saturation so it should bt BT 709. my xh90 was nearly calibrated out of the box my 3D lut does nearly anything i still have that one. sony only had an 11 point ire calibration and that was more than enough.
What do you mean about "the same time"? (I don't understand.) And what do you mean about bt2020 here? Are we still talking about SDR?
i want later used send bt 2020 option in madVR for HDR -> SDR tone mapping but in native without ever using the remote like every TV before could do.

That's correct using bt709 SDR in PC mode: you can create a 3dlut for the TV or madvr to correct this.
i heard they support it but i could not yet find it only 22 point.

:D Yes, but it's not a big deal, you can correct this with calibration. Do you have an i1DiplayPro colorimeter?
Believe me, if everything else is working as it should (that you want to use), you hit the jackpot! :)

the coating is a total deal breaker it turns a ~20X20 cm part on the screen red that should have a blue tint.

and yes i have a colorimeter and i will use it.

BTW. banding in PC mode isn't bad here it doesn't even challenge the xh90 which was perfect in 8 bit mode but it isn't so bad that i should ever notice it with real content. i only tested 8 bit right now i now regret not getting a HDMI 2.1 card just because my last screen 120 HZ was a lie.

this screen is an CX3 even through i ordered an CX6 i have no clue what the difference is most likely the stand.

[chros]

i want later used send bt 2020 option in madVR for HDR -> SDR tone mapping but in native without ever using the remote like every TV before could do.
Then you don't have to do anything special, just setup a profile in madvr with "if (HDR) ... else ..." and set the 2 3dluts. (madvr requires gamma 2.2 3dluts for hdr2sdr tonemapping).
But you don't want to do this on an HDR capable display, but output HDR all the time, but you will see. :)

i heard they support it but i could not yet find it only 22 point.
You need calibration softwares that support this (Calman, ColorSpace, they support the built-in pattern generator) or the previously mentioned aiopylgtv that can generate acceptable 3dluts by LG TV from DisplayCal generated IRIDAS (*.cube) 3dluts (here (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/topic/lg-c8-lut/page/19/#post-30492) you can read more about it).

BTW. banding in PC mode isn't bad here it doesn't even challenge the xh90 which was perfect in 8 bit mode but it isn't so bad that i should ever notice it with real content. i only tested 8 bit right now i now regret not getting a HDMI 2.1 card just because my last screen 120 HZ was a lie.
Then please test those later that I posted above, thanks.
I don't miss 120Hz, I don't think we need it for movie playback.

[chros]

I just used the DCI-P3 D65 preset and changed gamma to 2.2 and in the 3D Lut Maker the standard BT2020 profile with gamma 2.2. White Level doesn't matter, I tried 100 nits and 10K nits, no difference.
Rendering intent absolute colorimeric for now but I'll probably try the other ones.
Thanks for posting the images, again. Indeed changing the white level with the DCI-P3 icm doesn't do any change with madvr (while other settings are the same you suggested). But it definitely did when I uploaded the 3dlut to the TV, so who knows why.

Now, about rendering intents (https://displaycal.net/#rendering-intents) (I quickly tried all of them):
- "Absolute colorimetric with white point scaling" (-iaws) would be the correct one technically speaking, but after comparing with the factory 3dlut, it's undersaturated most of (all?) the time, resulting in less punchy image (the other 2 "Absolute" intents are really similar/same)
- - maybe because of WOLED (white subpixel)?
- “Relative” (-ir) looks like Absolute
- “Luminance matched appearance” (-il) looks like Absolute
- “Luminance preserving perceptual” (-ilp) is undersatutes colors and providing weird colors in dark scenes, so it's a no go
- “Perceptual” ones undersatutes colors, so they are no go
- "Preserve Saturation" (-ims) and "Saturation" (-is) work similarly, the latter adds more suturation
- - these look closest to factory 3dlut most of the time (sometimes colors still undersaturated, other times over, but not too distracting)
- - the wierd thing is with these 2 that shadow detail is crushed now: I had to create a gamma 1.0 (!!!) version of these (by setting it both on dic-p3 icm and on 3dlut window) to somewhat match the Absolute ones (and still a bit darker sometimes) :) (how the heck this works ...?)

I will setup profiles for couple of these (-is, -ims, -aws, -ir) in madvr and will switch between them during playback to pick up more issues with them.
Thoughts?

[SamuriHL]

Well....I'm down and out for quite a while. My 2070 died which was causing the hardware lockups. I'm running on the Intel 630 right now which won't detect that my C8 is an HDR capable display. HAHAHA, kill me now. And of course I have a movie night next weekend with a friend. Guess I'll be using the SHIELD for that one. UGH. Need to hunt down a new video card but I'm not getting a TI and I'm not spending ridiculous money for a 3080. This may take a while.

[chros]

:D Just get a used 1060 6GB (for less than $100), and you are good to go :)

I have set up the Saturation (-is) gamma 1.0 3dlut as default, images are stunning, after 2 years watching that crap finally we can ejnoy HDR10 again!

[j82k]

- - the wierd thing is with these 2 that shadow detail is crushed now: I had to create a gamma 1.0 (!!!) version of these (by setting it both on dic-p3 icm and on 3dlut window) to somewhat match the Absolute ones (and still a bit darker sometimes) :) (how the heck this works ...?)

Thoughts?

I would've thought that when both profiles are set to the same gamma you would always get the same result, no matter if it's 1.0 or 2.2 or 2.4, but apparently not? Guess I have to mess with this too.

[SamuriHL]

I gave my 1060 to my daughter so no getting that back. And I'm not going backwards. I have my laptop with a 2080 so I can always use that temporarily. Just annoying.

[chros]

I would've thought that when both profiles are set to the same gamma you would always get the same result, no matter if it's 1.0 or 2.2 or 2.4, but apparently not? Guess I have to mess with this too.
Yes, just tried out with "Absolute" and gamma 1.0 , gamma 1.0 is slightly brighter than 2.2

But shouldn't we have to select "BT.2020ST 2084 10000 cd/m2" (from the dropdown) instead of "Bt.2020 color profile" on the 3dlut creation window?
(Although I don't see any difference using "Absolute" rendering intent, after a quick check.)