MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[leeperry]

right but I spent a lot of time watching those 1080p LG's as their price was dropping constantly, first problem was the poor aperture ratio that gave a very nasty mosquito screen effect but just as bad was the constant brightness limitation, a store had a US football demo and friggin TV was constantly pumping in order to reach 100 cd/m2 max :o

B8 is 141 max on SDR, barely enough but still good enough to avoid pumping I think: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b8-oled

B9 is 190 which sounds good: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b9-oled

C8 158: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8-oled

C9 151: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

It all might very well boil down to firmware and panel discrepancy but based on these figures I'd be better off getting a B9 huh

I can't be hassled to look for 1080p review but it was in the 100 region so clearly not enough and it's good to see that they're working things out, LG seem to claim that ABL is enforced to avoid burn-in but a wild guess would be that it's here to cap power consumption as EU regulations require low figures AFAIK.

Short story is that those OLED's are all prototypes, I would certainly feel utterly butt-hurt if I had bought one of those nasty 1080p sets.

You can't disable ASBL AFAIK, or at least it won't survive a power reset.

[VBB]

You can't disable ABL, but you certainly can disable ASBL permanently. I've had my C7 for more than two years now, and with OLED Light set to 45 (more than 150 cd/m²), I've never noticed ABL kicking in. This is in a completely dark room, where it would be very noticeable.

[SamuriHL]

Yea that was the first thing I did when I got my service remote. That thing had to go.

[chros]

Chros and others that have and use calman on OLED. Calman was just updated with a new 3dlut algorithm that handles OLED panel drift better. It's a fixed point lut with 9 17 or 21 points. The 9 point does nearly 800 measurements the 17 point is over 9000 etc. I ran the 9 point last night and while my results weren't what I necessarily wanted and I need to redo it today, I can definitely see where this is going to be awesome for us.
Hmm, interesting, I'll be curious how it goes! :) (I don't have Claman and LS either btw.) Take a look at Leon's post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-20.html#post58985224) and also the link in it (he compared LS with Claman :))
I'm doing SDR 3dluts for madvr now as well, in a specail way :) I'll post about it later.

You can't disable ASBL AFAIK, or at least it won't survive a power reset.

You can't disable ABL, but you certainly can disable ASBL permanently. I've had my C7 for more than two years now, and with OLED Light set to 45 (more than 150 cd/m²), I've never noticed ABL kicking in. This is in a completely dark room, where it would be very noticeable.
Others are right, you can get rid of ASBL (and that's the only one), but there's at least a 3rd one as well, take a look at this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) for links as well.

right but I spent a lot of time watching those 1080p LG's as their price was dropping constantly, first problem was the poor aperture ratio that gave a very nasty mosquito screen effect
What is this exactly? Do you have a link for it?

but just as bad was the constant brightness limitation, a store had a US football demo and friggin TV was constantly pumping in order to reach 100 cd/m2 max :o
That's what ANSD does/can do from 2018 models :)

B9 is 190 which sounds good: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b9-oled
This can't be right: an entry level model is better than a bigger one?! :) It should be around the same value as the others.
But ~140 nits with gamma 2.2 is enough for day usage (not direct sunlight :) ), 120 nits or less for evening/night.

But that's should be your least concern: near black banding, tinting, dead pixels, black crush, flashing macroblocks, etc :)
Read on these topics on avforums and avsforum as well.

LG seem to claim that ABL is enforced to avoid burn-in but a wild guess would be that it's here to cap power consumption as EU regulations require low figures AFAIK.
Bullocks, it prevents the TV to burn down your house! :D

[SamuriHL]

Hmm, interesting, I'll be curious how it goes! :) (I don't have Claman and LS either btw.) Take a look at Leon's post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-20.html#post58985224) and also the link in it (he compared LS with Claman :))
I'm doing SDR 3dluts for madvr now as well, in a specail way :) I'll post about it later.


I have a lot more work to do. So far I tried a 9 point (~780 measurements) and the DE is too high for my taste. Average ~2.1 and max @4.5. My feeling is that a 17 or 21 point is going to be needed to get better results, but, obviously that'll take longer. I think the 17 is like 9000 or some odd measurements. I can see where this is going to be very beneficial if I can get it dialed in. The fact that it handles OLED drift now is very good. More playing is needed. And yes, I know LS is considered more accurate than Calman, but, Calman was fairly cheap and much easier to learn. I'm still quite new to calibrating this C8 so I'm learning. I gotta say, these panels are a pain in the ass around near black to dial in the grayscale. Getting it right brings out incredible shadow detail, but, my i1 display pro does NOT like near black, even with the modified profile. It helps, but, it's still painful. lol

[mark0077]

Not sure if everyone's aware, but for us European C9 owners, the new firmware that adds G-Sync for newer Nvidia cards is available to download on the LG site. 04.71.05. Heres the link for the 65CPLA model.

https://www.lg.com/uk/support/software-firmware?search=OLED65C9PLA&pageVisibleFlag=2

[leeperry]

You can't disable ABL, but you certainly can disable ASBL permanently. I've had my C7 for more than two years now, and with OLED Light set to 45 (more than 150 cd/m²), I've never noticed ABL kicking in. This is in a completely dark room, where it would be very noticeable.

OK thanks and where do you set that please? using websocat?

Yea that was the first thing I did when I got my service remote. That thing had to go.

Service Remote? Why not websocat?

So you don't see any pumping on high brightness movies due to ABL/ANSD on your C8?

What is this exactly? Do you have a link for it?
I just mean that distance between pixels was too high, so much that it looked like a mosquito net on top of the TV. Known issue on some 720p/1080p triLCD projectors, I still wonder how anyone could bear those 1080p LG OLED's with such poor aperture ratio and nasty 110 cd/m2 ABL/ANSD :eek:

That's what ANSD does/can do from 2018 models

Oh you got me, there's a third one huh and yes I guess big white digital displays on top of that US football demo was putting it on its knees forcing the TV to constantly pump brightness in order to reach a miserable max 100 cd/m2.

Non-issue on your B8, right :confused:

This can't be right: an entry level model is better than a bigger one?! :) It should be around the same value as the others.
But ~140 nits with gamma 2.2 is enough for day usage (not direct sunlight :) ), 120 nits or less for evening/night.
I usually calibrate around 135 cd/m2 but I'm still scared of what would appear to be ANSD, also we dunno how those white OLED's will age so I wouldn't mind some extra brightness to start with.

But that's should be your least concern: near black banding, tinting, dead pixels, black crush, flashing macroblocks, etc :)
Read on these topics on avforums and avsforum as well.
OK thanks, will check it out.

[SamuriHL]

Service Remote? Why not websocat?

So you don't see any pumping on high brightness movies due to ABL/ANSD on your C8?


I've no idea what websocat is. The service remote allows me to get to the service menu with the push of a button and a special code (0413 to be precise). This was the ONLY thing I've changed in that menu so far.

Nope, no pumping at all that I've seen. My daytime SDR mode is ~220 nits or so with 2.2 gamma. Nighttime SDR is ~120 nits at the moment with a 2.4 gamma. I've not seen any brightness issues.

[chros]

Service Remote? Why not websocat?
...
Non-issue on your B8, right :confused:
:) It depends on the content you watch: if it has logo or scoreboard with sport then it can.
ASBL can only be disabled in In-Start SM, not via api.

My daytime SDR mode is ~220 nits or so with 2.2 gamma.
Wha'?! :) Are you sitting outside in the garden? :) What Oled light does it correspond to? 100?

[leeperry]

service remote allows me to get to the service menu with the push of a button and a special code (0413 to be precise).
And where do you get that remote please? I got a bunch of coupons on amazon I could use for that.

Any link with indications of what codes to mess with? :D

:) It depends on the content you watch: if it has logo or scoreboard with sport then it can.
ASBL can only be disabled in In-Start SM, not via api.
What's "In-Start SM"? Service Menu? Gotta have a special remote for that? No app or sequence of keys on regular remote?

In that link you mentioned they claim that you can disable ANSD.

[Asmodian]

The SURE app worked well for me in Android for accessing the service menus. The app just opens the menu, it does not set it directly with an API.

[SamuriHL]

Wha'?! :) Are you sitting outside in the garden? :) What Oled light does it correspond to? 100?

LMAO. I don't use it very often. Only when the sun is coming directly through my picture window. It's I think 85 OLED. So no, not 100, but, WAY higher than my regular "night" mode which I typically use unless, as I said, the sun is glaring through the window.

[SamuriHL]

And where do you get that remote please? I got a bunch of coupons on amazon I could use for that.

Any link with indications of what codes to mess with? :D


What's "In-Start SM"? Service Menu? Gotta have a special remote for that? No app or sequence of keys on regular remote?

In that link you mentioned they claim that you can disable ANSD.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075M91STG

That's the one I grabbed. In-Start SM is the button on the remote. Check the picture.

[chros]

Any link with indications of what codes to mess with? :D
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv.html

In that link you mentioned they claim that you can disable ANSD.
You can't, probably you misunderstood something.

[Magik Mark]

Guys,

Is there a way in madvr to adjust the luminance of subtitle in HDR? It's so bright. Maybe around 50 nits

[mark0077]

Guys, for those of you using madVR with an LG C9 that's calibrated in game mode, can you share your calibrated settings. Mainly I'm looking to see what colour temperature is the most accurate. It defaults to "Medium" Colour temperature in Game Mode, and "Color" of 55. In other modes these seem to default to "Warm 2" and 50. Warm 2 looks very warm to my eyes when in Game Mode. I assume its not D65. Can anyone share their game mode / PC mode calibrated settings?

One more question for you guys. I have settled on YCbCr 444 8-bit for SDR content and RGB 8-bit Full for HDR. When outputting 8-bit, do you guys set your madVR display properties "the native display bitdepth is" to 8 bit or 10 bit/auto? I assume outputting in 10 bit, its Windows that decides what to do with 10 bit to 8 bit conversion?

Last question. Do you guys know of a way to make madVR, or via some shortcut, quickly switch between YCbCr and RGB with different content. Its very annoying to do it manually every time :) Is madVR capable of doing this or triggering an external command somehow to do it? (If not I might create a switcher for it).

[chros]

Is there a way in madvr to adjust the luminance of subtitle in HDR? It's so bright. Maybe around 50 nits
I don't think so, but if you use srt subs then your player can (e.g. mpc-hc/be with its built-in sub engine).

[leeperry]

Am I getting this right and there's no PIP on those TV's huh? I use it all the time watching TV in a small rectangle on the right bottom while browsing the web :o

Multiview seems worthless for my needs, oh well gonna get a Sammy LCD for half-price over OLED, I'll get PIP and no trouble with burn-in either and I want a curved TV anyhow

LG is always full of fail such as all those bs ASBL/ASL/HDR with 150cd/m2 limitation, astounding :o

Apparently OLED's from german brands such as Loewe do PIP but too pricey I think

[Teddy_McFluff]

Hey guys new to the forums, had been reading up on various articles and can't really get a concrete answers on some settings that I have.

I know it's a long one but I know some folks prolly want these answered, or prolly been answered, I just didn't/couldn't find it, for that I'm sorry.

Got a LG C8 on a HTPC with a 6850k/32gb/1080ti (If this matters)

Nvidia CP set on RGB, FULL, 8bit

I use Non-pc mode to watch movies and PC mode when I play games on Steam, leaving the Nvidia CP on RGB FULL

I'm using Potplayer w/ madvr w/ LAV filters & XySubfilter loaded. Built in (transfomr filters, etc.) stuff are all disabled (as far as I know)

I'm also using either ISF DR or BR (Gamma 2.2, Color Gamut: WIDE, Black Level: HIGH) Sharpness: 0 to all (even HDR [Cinema, Warm1])

Questions:

Nvidia CP is set @ 60hz 4k RGB Full 8bit, should I have the black level set to High or Low??
The Potplayer background when I play my files are greyish but then turns to the correct black level when it loads, is it the potplayer itself or do I have to re-adjust my brightness/contrast? Which is @ 50 & 85 respectively.

When playing HDR via passthrough in madVR, do I have to set my black level to High as well? As the scenes are dark when its set to low but kinda grey when high, again I might have to adjust my brightness/contrast.

When playing SDR/HDR games on PC mode, do I also have to set my black level to High, since I have my Nvidia CP on RGB Full???

How can I achieve Limited, Full, Limited? I know I gotta put madvr to TV levels, Nvidia CP to Full, C8 to Low but what about the Potplayer?? I see "Colorspace & offset/levels" in the Video tab and it has several option that I think I have to mess with, or not. These are what's really bothering me....

These are the options:
Under Colorspaces:
Ycbcr <--> RGB Conv: Auto, ITU 601, ITU 709, SMPTE 240M
Ycbcr color range: Auto, Limited, Full
Ycbcr to RGB color range: Limited, Full

Offset/levels:
Input: 16~235, Output: 0~255 (Do I have to mess with this????) Do I have to invert this setting to become limited??

Please let me know what to change so it'll display the correct levels.

Also about bitdepth, is it beneficial just to set my C8 to 8bit in madvr? Or do I have to set it to Auto? I'm also concerned about HDR content, doesn't it need to be in 10bit??

Under Calibration in madvr, I got 3 profiles 2160, 1080, 720. What color gamut/calibration should I put each profile in, right now its bt.2020, DCI-P3, DCI-P3, Let me know if need to change them.

I also noticed setting my color gamut on the C8 on Auto, the colors are kinda meh, washed out even, I've set it to wide for both SDR/HDR, should I change this or is this viewer preference???

again I'm sorry for all these question, I just wanted to be better informed and so I can better enjoy my C8 as well.

Happy New yr Guys/Gals!!

[Asmodian]

My experiance is with a C7 and C9 but these options behaved similarly on both screens and I understand the C8 works the same way.

Nvidia CP is set @ 60hz 4k RGB Full 8bit, should I have the black level set to High or Low??
The Potplayer background when I play my files are greyish but then turns to the correct black level when it loads, is it the potplayer itself or do I have to re-adjust my brightness/contrast? Which is @ 50 & 85 respectively.

High. High = Full range, Low = limited range. 50 & 85 is correct, don't change it. Try something besides Potplayer. :p

When playing HDR via passthrough in madVR, do I have to set my black level to High as well? As the scenes are dark when its set to low but kinda grey when high, again I might have to adjust my brightness/contrast.

Do not adjust brightness/contrast. Those options probably shouldn't exist on these screens, or at least hidden in some CMS menu. OLED light is the only brightness control that should be used.

Again, low/high is still a simple decision. Does your GPU switch to YCbCr limited range for HDR? If yes, use low, if not use high (if madVR is set to low as well you get double range compression which is never correct). With madVR HDR should work at the same ranges as SDR even with passthrough. Passthrough is for the metadata and HDR tone mapping, not the more basic video signal configuration. A grey black on a LG OLED set to high means you are sending it limited range data. Or the other way around, if absolute black is black with the OLED on high you are sending it full range data.

When playing SDR/HDR games on PC mode, do I also have to set my black level to High, since I have my Nvidia CP on RGB Full???

Yes

How can I achieve Limited, Full, Limited? I know I gotta put madvr to TV levels, Nvidia CP to Full, C8 to Low but what about the Potplayer?? I see "Colorspace & offset/levels" in the Video tab and it has several option that I think I have to mess with, or not. These are what's really bothering me....

You have your options correct, but everything besides madVR would be wrong (Windows is always full and the TV is set to limited). I actually use the opposite, limited -> full -> limited. This is theoretically less optimal but my C9 does better with limited range input in PC mode and my 2080 Ti seems to dither Window's full range output to limited range YCbCr 444 reasonably well.

I would hope Potplayer was not messing with the video by default so you should not need to change anything. :scared:

Try with MPC-HC, or something else that doesn't mess with the video. Does it look the same?

Also about bitdepth, is it beneficial just to set my C8 to 8bit in madvr? Or do I have to set it to Auto? I'm also concerned about HDR content, doesn't it need to be in 10bit??

Leave the display set to 8 bit. HDR does not need to be 10 bit with madVR because of the high quality dithering and I do not trust these OLEDs' internal processing >8 bit in PC mode. They seem to handle 10 bit better in non-PC mode but I still see no advantages to using 10 bit input in any mode. These TVs have terrible HDR in PC mode so there is nothing wrong with using 10 bit if you feel like it but do not sacrifice anything to get it. :(

Under Calibration in madvr, I got 3 profiles 2160, 1080, 720. What color gamut/calibration should I put each profile in, right now its bt.2020, DCI-P3, DCI-P3, Let me know if need to change them.

You should not need to have profiles for different resolutions. Simply set it to DCI-P3 if you have the color gamut set to wide or BT.709 if set to extended. I like wide, it is closer to DCI-P3 than extended is to BT.709. Never use BT.2020, that is way too wide for any consumer display's native gamut.

I also noticed setting my color gamut on the C8 on Auto, the colors are kinda meh, washed out even, I've set it to wide for both SDR/HDR, should I change this or is this viewer preference???

It agree, I like wide better for both HDR and SDR, but it really is too wide for BT.709 content. :o

Extended is a bit wider than BT.709 (and a bit off) but Wide is not quite wide enough for DCI-P3 (but fairly accurate). Using the standard BT.709 -> DCI-P3 will look a bit washed out but with the TV on wide DCI-P3 is much more correct than BT.709. This is the main reason using a 3DLUT calibration file for this conversion is beneficial.

again I'm sorry for all these question, I just wanted to be better informed and so I can better enjoy my C8 as well.

Keep asking! All these options do make more sense once you finally understand what they really mean and get comfortable with the many tradeoffs watching video on consumer displays requires today. It may take a while. :)

[tyguy]

Are you guys able to get custom resolutions to stick? I'm repeating frames every 4 minutes. I went to set a custom resolution and had mad vr measure timings. I selected highly compatible ones that say they will drop frames once every 6 hours or even once a day, but when I go to use it i'm still dropping or repeating a frame once every 4 minutes.

[Asmodian]

Custom resolutions are a huge pain. I don't bother with them anymore and simply use smooth motion.

I have been able to get them to work but in the past but then I need to get the working again after a driver update, etc. Smooth motion looks great on an OLED at 60Hz but I am impatiently waiting for a GPU with HDMI 2.1 so I can use 120Hz.

[biship]

Hi Asmodian. I have a C9. I play a mix of 1080p SDR & 4K HDR. I do not have external 3DLUT files.

You are saying to set MadVR to:
"this display is already calibrated", DCI-P3, pure power curve, 2.20 & set the TV to Wide Color Gamut? (more accurate)
or alternatively:
"this display is already calibrated", BT.709, pure power curve, 2.20 & set the TV to Extended Color Gamut? (washed out)

Disable GPU gamma ramps?
Report BT.2020 to display?

Here is a typical MKV:
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : PQ
Matrix coefficients : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries : Display P3
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 1477 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 446 cd/m2

[Klaus1189]

so I can use 120Hz.

way to low, you need at least 360 Hz (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=20&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjClP2IjPLmAhUD3aQKHXGVC8sQFjATegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Frog.asus.com%2Farticles%2Fgaming-monitors%2Fthe-rog-swift-360hz-is-the-worlds-fastest-esports-gaming-monitor%2F&usg=AOvVaw1Ne5kKUJZshYgDesEdKMMK) :p

[tyguy]

Custom resolutions are a huge pain. I don't bother with them anymore and simply use smooth motion.

I have been able to get them to work but in the past but then I need to get the working again after a driver update, etc. Smooth motion looks great on an OLED at 60Hz but I am impatiently waiting for a GPU with HDMI 2.1 so I can use 120Hz.

The issue I have with smooth motion is I get flickering with hdr content. Specifically credit crawls are a nightmare. The text pulses like crazy.

[Asmodian]

You are saying to set MadVR to:
"this display is already calibrated", DCI-P3, pure power curve, 2.20 & set the TV to Wide Color Gamut? (more accurate)
or alternatively:
"this display is already calibrated", BT.709, pure power curve, 2.20 & set the TV to Extended Color Gamut? (washed out)


The first should be (more accurate, but slightly washed out)
The second should be (less accurate and oversaturated)
But those are the correct options, wide~=DCI-P3, extended~= BT.709.
I also use pure power curve, 2.40 and I calibrated the TVs internal LUT to that starting from its BT.1886 setting, which measured very close to 2.40 out of the box.

Disable GPU gamma ramps?
Report BT.2020 to display?

No

The issue I have with smooth motion is I get flickering with hdr content. Specifically credit crawls are a nightmare. The text pulses like crazy.

That would definitely be an issue. Do you have "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" checked? What happens if you tone map with pixel shaders to a target peak nits of 600?

I can see how smooth motion does not play well with current HDR displays. I am not sure I ever tested white credits over black background in HDR with smooth motion. A blended frame will have a VERY different peak brightness compared to a non-blended one in that case. The TV might react badly too. I used a matched 23 Hz refresh rate when watching HDR movies, which I haven't done in a while. :o

Getting one tuned 23Hz refresh rate with madVR's tool has always worked well for me, though getting any other custom refresh rate is usually much trickier. Start with no custom refresh rates setup and reboot after setting it up. A "clean install" of the Nvidia drivers (the option in the installer) has worked for me when something went bad with the custom display modes.

[tyguy]

The first should be (more accurate, but slightly washed out)

The second should be (less accurate and oversaturated)

But those are the correct options, wide~=DCI-P3, extended~= BT.709.

I also use pure power curve, 2.40 and I calibrated the TVs internal LUT to that starting from its BT.1886 setting, which measured very close to 2.40 out of the box.







No







That would definitely be an issue. Do you have "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" checked? What happens if you tone map with pixel shaders to a target peak nits of 600?



I can see how smooth motion does not play well with current HDR displays. I am not sure I ever tested white credits over black background in HDR with smooth motion. A blended frame will have a VERY different peak brightness compared to a non-blended one in that case. The TV might react badly too. I used a matched 23 Hz refresh rate when watching HDR movies, which I haven't done in a while. :o



Getting one tuned 23Hz refresh rate with madVR's tool has always worked well for me, though getting any other custom refresh rate is usually much trickier. Start with no custom refresh rates setup and reboot after setting it up. A "clean install" of the Nvidia drivers (the option in the installer) has worked for me when something went bad with the custom display modes.


I’ll try that. I’m thinking of getting a shield for playing hdr content because these dropped and repeated frames due to clock variance annoys me. I can use madvr for 1080 p non hdr content I want to upscale.

[QBhd]

Are you guys able to get custom resolutions to stick? I'm repeating frames every 4 minutes. I went to set a custom resolution and had mad vr measure timings. I selected highly compatible ones that say they will drop frames once every 6 hours or even once a day, but when I go to use it i'm still dropping or repeating a frame once every 4 minutes.

The only way I could get custom resolutions to work is to use CRU and delete all the "standard" 2160 resolutions.

Here is where to find them:

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_1.png

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_2.png

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_3.png

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_4.png

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_5.png

Once I removed those, I was able to use either madVR or the AMD Radeon Custom resolutions.

From what I have been able to gather, those "standard" resolutions completely override ALL other custom resolutions, even the ones you create with CRU. And madVR has no idea this is going on. So it will "optimize" based on the custom resolution created, but that is not the resolution that is being used. So no matter what you do, it will always report the same frame drops. I banged my head against this for weeks. Once I started deleting resolutions in the EDID with CRU, that's when I stumbled upon this solution.

There is one caveat... only RGB 8-bit resolutions are created. But for us LG OLED users this is actually the best option anyway. Color banding is horrendous with 10-bit or more... and YCbCr is just wrong.

QB

[mark0077]

QB, just on your point on YCbCr, you will see on this forum and avsforums, most agree YCbCr is much better than RGB at least in SDR. It's really noticibly better on my C9 so yeah custom resolutions have a big downside here. I started playing with visual studio and the nvapi libraries to try to create a display mode switcher that also allows YCbCr to be used but it's a big learning curve so no joy so far.

[QBhd]

I know about the YCbCr "findings" of other users. But why would you want the graphics card to do any color space conversion, especially one it's not really designed for. I tested YCbCr myself and did not notice any improvement in color banding compared to RGB-8bit (HDR source GoT - The Long Night), in fact I am pretty sure it was worse. Plus it seems like a real pain to switch back and forth between color spaces based on content.

QB

[VBB]

We should always make it obvious when we're talking about PC mode or normal HDMI mode. Otherwise, it can be very confusing.

I don't use PC mode, because I don't play games or do any browsing/desktop activity on my HTPC. 4:4:4 would be nice, I'll admit that, but for media I can do without it, until LG finally get their act together. In non-PC mode, I really never had any issues with RGB full 8-bit. In fact, I used that for almost two years, but I felt it was necessary to use madVR's "reduce banding" feature at its lowest setting. Now that I've made the switch to YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit, "reduce banding" is not needed any longer. I have yet to see any banding on any quality content in both SDR and HDR.

For me, it's a question of what does the TV handle best. Conversions are unavoidable anyway. I say everyone test this for themselves, if they feel like it. I'm still curious if my "findings" apply only to the 7 series or also to the more recent panels.

One thing that I'm not entirely sure about, so if someone has any input...: Is it possible that the virtually non-existent banding with 4:2:2 10-bit is the result of Nvidia cards dithering in that mode, but not in RGB?

EDIT: Then again, why would the video card do any dithering at higher than 8-bit with a 10-bit display?

[mark0077]

I know about the YCbCr "findings" of other users. But why would you want the graphics card to do any color space conversion, especially one it's not really designed for. I tested YCbCr myself and did not notice any improvement in color banding compared to RGB-8bit (HDR source GoT - The Long Night), in fact I am pretty sure it was worse. Plus it seems like a real pain to switch back and forth between color spaces based on content.

QB
All of my comments above are in PC / Game mode.

For me there's no switching back needed. I'm leaving it at YCbCr for everything right now, desktop / games / SDR. Once you set the TV to Auto, it assumes Limited range and High range depending on whether you feed it YCbCr Limited or RGB High so there's no work needed on the TV side. It looks a lot better to me. I actually put a banding test pattern as my desktop wallpaper for a while and even my wife can see the difference. There's a few scenes in movies where I had switched to RGB and noticed because of the increased banding, but to be honest I'd say for 80% of content its hard to notice, but definitely RGB 8-bit has fairly bad banding compared to YCbCr444 8-bit for SDR.

I went through all modes from RGB to the various YCbCr4XX as well as bit depths and made note of my banding results in each if anyone's interested. The only ones I scored "Great" were the YCbCr444 8-bit and YCbCr422 10 and 12 bit ones ones. The other combinations were a "Medium" to "Bad" when I went through each and took notes, in SDR. I scored RGB 8 bit a "Medium" to my eyes for SDR.

The rare time we watch a new HDR movie, I sometimes switch to RGB 8-bit as there its the best to my eyes (YCbCr444 makes my GTX 980 show a green tinted image for some reason), but for the most part for all other content I don't see any downsides to leaving the TV constantly in YCbCr 444 8-bit. The upside being its less banding in everything from desktop / youtube / web / SDR use. If something like the madVR display mode switcher could also switch to YCbCr4XX of different depths, I think this could be automated to switch to the best mode for different types of content (SDR or HDR). Is this possible madshi?


One thing that I'm not entirely sure about, so if someone has any input...: Is it possible that the virtually non-existent banding with 4:2:2 10-bit is the result of Nvidia cards dithering in that mode, but not in RGB?

EDIT: Then again, why would the video card do any dithering at higher than 8-bit with a 10-bit display?

Yeah I would also like to see in various combinations, what windows / the nvidia drivers themselves do, and if theres anything that can be done under the hood in the nvidia drivers or windows itself to improve this. I'm thinking the likes of wasapi for audio here where we all strived to avoid the windows mixer (I know its not a perfect analogy, but maybe theres something here that can be tweaked).

[tyguy]

I’ve had issues with dark scenes using pc mode and rgb full 8 bit with hdr.

I get some sort of ghosting and what looks like oil floating in scenes with clouds.

Reinstall well lit scenes are fine but dark content is just brutal.

Switching to anything else other than pc removes those issues, but then you remove 444 capability.

[tyguy]

The only way I could get custom resolutions to work is to use CRU and delete all the "standard" 2160 resolutions.



Here is where to find them:



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_1.png



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_2.png



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_3.png



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_4.png



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_5.png



Once I removed those, I was able to use either madVR or the AMD Radeon Custom resolutions.



From what I have been able to gather, those "standard" resolutions completely override ALL other custom resolutions, even the ones you create with CRU. And madVR has no idea this is going on. So it will "optimize" based on the custom resolution created, but that is not the resolution that is being used. So no matter what you do, it will always report the same frame drops. I banged my head against this for weeks. Once I started deleting resolutions in the EDID with CRU, that's when I stumbled upon this solution.



There is one caveat... only RGB 8-bit resolutions are created. But for us LG OLED users this is actually the best option anyway. Color banding is horrendous with 10-bit or more... and YCbCr is just wrong.



QB


Thanks for this. Do you have to do this every time you install new drivers? If something goes wrong will ddu and fresh install restore everything?

[QBhd]

I have not had to do it with driver updates... but I am pretty sure a DDU will reset it... but not 100% sure since I have not tried that... but if it does, it's a simple thing to remove those "standard" 3840x2160 resolutions. And if you want to reset what CRU does it is as simple as deleting the active registry EDID at the top and restarting.

As to the RGB talk above:

I did ditch PC mode and just use normal HDMI. I have a C8. I am also AMD. And there is no "auto" for black levels on these TV's (just High and Low).

I put far more weight on 4k HDR since if you're going to sit and watch a movie for two hours with friends and family, you want your TV to be at peak picture quality. As for SDR content, the RGB 8-bit is good enough.

QB

[iSeries]

When you send these LG OLEDs RGB, the first thing it does is convert to limited range ycbcr. Yes it does do some subsequent processing in RGB and ultimately ends up as RGB, but that initial first step is convert to ycbcr. So my suspicion is nvidia is simply doing a better job of that conversion. After VBBs suggestion to try 10bit 422 ycbcr in nvidia control panel (TV normal HDMI mode) I tested it for myself vs 8 bit RGB (madVR limited/gpu full/black level low) and it does look a little smoother. Not night and day but a little smoother.

[VBB]

(madVR limited/gpu full/black level low)

You mean madVR full/GPU limited/black level low? For the YCbCr, I mean.

[Teddy_McFluff]

My experiance is with a C7 and C9 but these options behaved similarly on both screens and I understand the C8 works the same way.



High. High = Full range, Low = limited range. 50 & 85 is correct, don't change it. Try something besides Potplayer. :p



Do not adjust brightness/contrast. Those options probably shouldn't exist on these screens, or at least hidden in some CMS menu. OLED light is the only brightness control that should be used.

Again, low/high is still a simple decision. Does your GPU switch to YCbCr limited range for HDR? If yes, use low, if not use high (if madVR is set to low as well you get double range compression which is never correct). With madVR HDR should work at the same ranges as SDR even with passthrough. Passthrough is for the metadata and HDR tone mapping, not the more basic video signal configuration. A grey black on a LG OLED set to high means you are sending it limited range data. Or the other way around, if absolute black is black with the OLED on high you are sending it full range data.



Yes



You have your options correct, but everything besides madVR would be wrong (Windows is always full and the TV is set to limited). I actually use the opposite, limited -> full -> limited. This is theoretically less optimal but my C9 does better with limited range input in PC mode and my 2080 Ti seems to dither Window's full range output to limited range YCbCr 444 reasonably well.

I would hope Potplayer was not messing with the video by default so you should not need to change anything. :scared:

Try with MPC-HC, or something else that doesn't mess with the video. Does it look the same?



Leave the display set to 8 bit. HDR does not need to be 10 bit with madVR because of the high quality dithering and I do not trust these OLEDs' internal processing >8 bit in PC mode. They seem to handle 10 bit better in non-PC mode but I still see no advantages to using 10 bit input in any mode. These TVs have terrible HDR in PC mode so there is nothing wrong with using 10 bit if you feel like it but do not sacrifice anything to get it. :(



You should not need to have profiles for different resolutions. Simply set it to DCI-P3 if you have the color gamut set to wide or BT.709 if set to extended. I like wide, it is closer to DCI-P3 than extended is to BT.709. Never use BT.2020, that is way too wide for any consumer display's native gamut.



It agree, I like wide better for both HDR and SDR, but it really is too wide for BT.709 content. :o

Extended is a bit wider than BT.709 (and a bit off) but Wide is not quite wide enough for DCI-P3 (but fairly accurate). Using the standard BT.709 -> DCI-P3 will look a bit washed out but with the TV on wide DCI-P3 is much more correct than BT.709. This is the main reason using a 3DLUT calibration file for this conversion is beneficial.



Keep asking! All these options do make more sense once you finally understand what they really mean and get comfortable with the many tradeoffs watching video on consumer displays requires today. It may take a while. :)

Thank u for the replies, I haven't been online, busy as of late.

I haven't tried madvr with mpc-HC lately, I have in the past but not with a high end tv.

Well, I set everything in FULL range so madvr, GPU, tv are all set to full but I'm wondering on the video tab on potplayer the level/offset and color space has options to set ycbcr to limited and ycbcr to rgb to limited/full options. Also, the input/output to 0-255 and 16-235 vice versa so maybe folks with potplayer can chime in or since madvr is doing the renderings it shouldn't matter.??

I maybe have to take screen shots about my high/low difference on my tv. My oled also suffers from vertical banding when watching for more than 4hrs. It does disappear when pixel refreshed.

I haven't checked if my GPU goes to ycbcr limited on hdr, I'll recheck sometime....it shouldn't though....lol.

What are your settings on mpc-hc? Maybe I can just copy it?

Also I have different res on madvr since I upscale 1080 and 720 to 4k with different Luma and chroma settings.

If you suggest of just defaults then I can try that again.

I'll set the gamut to wide and gamma to dci-p3 then.
If u have a 3dlut on dci-p3 on wide that u can share let me know.

I also plan to make one of the inputs (non pc mode) to just watching movies/anime so I wanna set everything to limited, full, limited and switch to pc mode full when browsing, playing games etc.

Screenshots attached...also the right side of my oled has that higher tint....?

[iSeries]

You mean madVR full/GPU limited/black level low? For the YCbCr, I mean.

That was for RGB 8 bit. For ycbcr madVR at full and TV on low.

[chros]

All of my comments above are in PC / Game mode.
...
The rare time we watch a new HDR movie ... but for the most part for all other content I don't see any downsides to leaving the TV constantly in YCbCr 444 8-bit.
HDR10 in PC mode is presenting posterization (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1883144#post1883144) in dark scenes anyway, no matter what output you select. That's why I still use RGB full 12 bit :D

Btw, has anybody tried out Dolby Vision in PC mode?
Do you see any difference? Or maybe DV skips entirely LG processing even via an HDMI input?
And do you know any freely available DV (chroma) test patterns?

Thanks

[QBhd]

The only way of testing this is to have a device that is DV licensed. I am pretty sure there is no way to get DV to work on a PC yet...

QB

[chros]

The only way of testing this is to have a device that is DV licensed. I am pretty sure there is no way to get DV to work on a PC yet...
:) I have it now, but I don't see any difference between normal and PC mode. Maybe that's why ...

[chros]

I started playing with visual studio and the nvapi libraries to try to create a display mode switcher that also allows YCbCr to be used but it's a big learning curve so no joy so far.
Mark, btw, you don't have to write yours, it's already done (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1863306#post1863306) by a fellow nice guy, I use it since then manually every day on Win10 1607. And this is smarter, it uses Wndows 10 API, so it works well with CRU created custom resolutions as well :)

[Magik Mark]

Guys,

Can you recommend a good setting for 4K 60fps on madvr? Getting a lot of frame drop. Even tried bilinear in chroma upscaling. Still dropping frames

I'm using rtx 2060

[mark0077]

Mark, btw, you don't have to write yours, it's already done (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1863306#post1863306) by a fellow nice guy, I use it since then manually every day on Win10 1607. And this is smarter, it uses Wndows 10 API, so it works well with CRU created custom resolutions as well :)

Oh sweet thanks. I'll give it a go to see can I somehow automate calling it to switch to YCbCr for SDR and RGB for HDR via some mechanism also.

[VBB]

Guys,

Can you recommend a good setting for 4K 60fps on madvr? Getting a lot of frame drop. Even tried bilinear in chroma upscaling. Still dropping frames

I'm using rtx 2060

Disable tone-mapping. Then use Jinc or lower for chroma. That's what I do with my 960.

[chros]

to switch to YCbCr for SDR and RGB for HDR
I missed this part or don't remember it: why don't you want to use YCbCr for HDR as well? (Apart from what madshi said (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271416#post1271416) about YCbCr matrixes, but that also applies to BT.709.)

Btw, has anyone tried this out just in case? :)

I think iSeries was proposing that instead of madvr outputting RGB and having the GPU convert it before sending it to the TV, that we'd have madvr output YCbCr instead. Would that not work?

That doesn't work because the backbuffer (ie. the screen) is always in RGB. So when madVR outputs YCbCr to the backbuffer, then the GPU still thinks that its RGB, and if the GPU tries to convert it, it would screw it up - so it has to treat it like RGB.

Hence, everything thinks its handling RGB, the GPU and the screen, so you have to convince one of them that its not RGB, and thats not easily possible.

Basically, a PC is not designed for a direct YCbCr path.

[mark0077]

I missed this part or don't remember it: why don't you want to use YCbCr for HDR as well? (Apart from what madshi said (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271416#post1271416) about YCbCr matrixes, but that also applies to BT.709.)

Btw, has anyone tried this out just in case? :)

For HDR, YCbCr 444 8-bit, shows banding where in SDR it doesn't on the C9. For SDR and HDR, the best mode is different which is a pity. Its why I'm hoping to somehow automate switching to YCbCr444 8-bit for SDR movies / desktop etc, and only switch to RGB for HDR only.

[chros]

For HDR, YCbCr 444 8-bit, shows banding where in SDR it doesn't on the C9. For SDR and HDR, the best mode is different which is a pity. Its why I'm hoping to somehow automate switching to YCbCr444 8-bit for SDR movies / desktop etc, and only switch to RGB for HDR only.
That would be strange. Do you have a sample video for this?

[mark0077]

That would be strange. Do you have a sample video for this?

Today I retested with the png gradient in the first post on this thread opened in madVR https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172128. (Results are different playing through madVR as opposed to a pure image shown on my desktop, so annoying that different content gives different results, I assume as sometimes different pieces like windows / drivers are at play or not).

Heres my subjective results doing this test on LG C9 65 Inch. GTX 980, latest Nvidia drivers as of today. mpc-be / madVR latest. This is all in Game Mode with PC label on HDMI input.

# SDR - Testing with gradient png
## RGB Full and Limited (Results were the same either way)
8-bit: Med-Bad (Blending good but many random bands appearing in places)
12-bit: Bad

## YCbCr444
8-bit: Great (Slight random bands in places)
12-bit: Bad

## YCbCr222
8-bit: Great (Slight random bands in places)
10-bit: Bad (But no random bands)
12-bit: Bad (But no random bands)

############################

# HDR (Activated using HDR Switcher) - Testing with gradient png
## RGB Full and Limited (Results were the same either way)
8-bit: Bad (Banding clearly visible)
12-bit: Med (A fair amount of banding)

## YCbCr444
8-bit: Great (Slight random bands in places) (Green screen/tint when playing HDR movies)
12-bit: Bad (Switches out of HDR) (Green screen/tint when playing HDR movies)

## YCbCr222
8-bit: Great (Slight random bands in places)
10-bit: Med (Slight banding)
12-bit: Med (Slight banding)

Side Note: Has anyone with newer NVidia cards, tried the Studio Drivers. They seem to have alot of changes when it comes to 10-bit support. Maybe they behave differently in different bit depths? I can't test on my GTX 980 as they only support newer cards.