MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[aron7awol]

Apologies for such an on-topic post (I'm totally kidding and love to see anything related to technical aspects of OLED in here)...

I've been away for much of the custom curves testing, although I've been trying to at least keep up to date reading the relevant threads. Kudos to @quietvoid for his hard work doing a ton of testing specific to us in that area.

I've seen mentioned in the main thread that 128 is considered more of a daily driver than 130, although I admit I haven't done enough research to discover why exactly. Considering on most 1,000 nit content there is very little TMing necessary, and that when I sit down to actually watch a movie I want a consistent non-distracting experience above all else, I have been hesitant to upgrade because of mentions of brightness pumping.

So is there a combination of version/settings that will give the great results that @quietvoid has worked so hard to dial in for us, while avoiding something distracting like brightness pumping?

[quietvoid]

130 is a build with curve normalization, to avoid conflicting settings while testing.
It supposedly affects brightness a lot, which is why some are still on 128 for watching.

As for brightness pumping, madshi said there was no protection currently so I don't expect any of the latest builds to be perfect.
It's probably worse for lower nits than for us, I don't really notice much and I doubt it would happen in regular content.
If you want consistency I'd suggest avoiding the new curves completely.

Last I posted my settings: https://postimg.cc/vDKX0L21
Since then I think I changed my DTN down to 65, to be closer to what I saw in Dolby Vision.
And still using my R18 curve (signature).

[chros]

Indeed you did a good job and keeping the spirit alive, that's why I try to help you with anything I can :)

[SamuriHL]

Seriously I've been using 130 and your latest curve for most of my daily driving watching. Yes, there are brightness issues but as mentioned for us they're not quite as bad or noticeable. You did a really great job chasing that configuration down.

[quietvoid]

:)
I still hope there can be improvements in the curves, not too sure what madshi has planned though.

I ended up doing a quick DisplayCal calibration for SDR (175 patches, 3D LUT only), but the final results were a bit lacking for grayscale.
Did a 20 point on top but it was much more complicated, so I don't know if I should have.
Still improved on the verification by a lot.

Just gotta look at actual content and see if there are issues.,
So far I just noticed some darker shadows, but it's hard to tell which is more accurate, since it's a trade-off between detail and near-black artifacts.

[SamuriHL]

175 patches is very small. When I do sdr calibration I use just under 5000 patches.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

[chros]

Yes, do at least the default number (~1500) or higher.

[quietvoid]

The default was auto optimized and 175. Guess I'll have to redo it..
Not sure how it would improve the greyscale though, everything else was below 1.5 dE already.

[SamuriHL]

It all depends on what patches were included in the 175. It's likely greyscale will improve more with more patches, however.

[chros]

The default is 1500 patches for sdr, did you select the right profile, madvr sdr?

[quietvoid]

No, because it doesn't do an IRIDAS LUT by default and was only 16-235.
I want the calibration for all inputs.

[chros]

Okay, then select madvr sdr profile, leave everything on deafult, only select Iridas full range on 3dlut tab along with gamma 2.4. That's it.

[quietvoid]

Got bored and decided to bump up R18's brightness.
Very small difference for 2230/10000 curves at 870 DPL. Most noticeable is probably 10 000 nits content as usual.

[chros]

If we only had a usable build... :) Instead, we have:
- mexican soap opera with lot of drama, no action :D
- or a docu about early 1900 when the angry mob wants to lynch the factory owners :D

[chros]

I've measured DoVi PQ (https://forum.makemkv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=107747#p107747) if someone is interested.

[VBB]

What a mess over at AVS, but that's not surprising. I can appreciate the entire tone-mapping effort, of course, but the vast majority of people over there have only been around for the past two years or so. They have absolutely no clue about the years and years of algorithm testing here at doom9, and all the guys who were involved in that. And those are not the ones complaining right now. As much as I like AVS, I would have much preferred if all things madVR had stayed right here.

...and whoever at AVS made a certain user a super moderator, I have no words :P

[chros]

You are right. And who are you referring to?

[VBB]

Oh, I'd rather not name names, but he's been posting in that "Future of madVR" thread, and quite often in the HTPC section. huhn most certainly knows who I'm talking about ;)

[SamuriHL]

Yea, both those threads are a mess. Some sane people are simply asking for what the future may hold with the expiring beta builds in terms of being able to have a semi-updated, stable build of madvr. E.G. build 130 not super stable for most people's daily driving, but, 128 is going to expire. What do you do with that? And that's really all that was originally being asked. Now that's turned into a total CF for no real reason. SIGH

[VBB]

I'm not blaming you for chiming in over there, and it did finally prompt a great response from Mathias :)

[SamuriHL]

I just wanted to try to bring some sanity to it cause it was quickly going off the rails. And yes, I am happy with the response we got. I hope after his current Envy endeavor he'll make this a priority even above further tone mapping tweaking because it will set us up for being able to choose what builds we wanna use.

[quietvoid]

I ran a 1.5k patches calibration. It didn't improve the greyscale and introduced some 25+dE colors.
So my initial medium/175 patches along with 20 points still gets better scores on the XXL verification set.

Not sure what went wrong but I don't really see a point in redoing it since the first one is good.

[chros]

Something is/was wrong then, either during measurement or verification. You can upload the settings as screenshots and the verification html file. It should be below 4 dE.

[chros]

Guys found the meaning (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/oled-tvs-technology-advancements-thread.681125/post-60685673) of TPC, GSR, etc.
CPC is interesting: is that the standard ABL? Do we see its effect with Cinema DV preset with the glowing? But it can't be a power hog at that low luminance level...

[Tronic]

I have HDR working great with HDR10 BT.2020 limited range mode on LG C9, Windows in HDR mode, Nvidia drivers set to full range, CUVID decoding and MadVR display settings set to limited range, calibrated BT.2020 with BT.709 curve, HDR pass-through.

However, whenever playing any SDR videos (8 or 10 bit), black becomes gray even though MadVR's source and display are both set to TV levels.

OSD with HDR10 source:

OS HDR, 12 bit, RGB, full
D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10 bit)
P010, 10 bit, 4:2:0
HDR 992 nits, BT.2020
limited range (says upstream)


OSD with SDR 8 bit source:

OS HDR, 12 bit, RGB, full
D3D11 fullscreen windowed (10 bit)
h264, 8 bit, 4:2:0 -> NV12, 8 bit, 4:2:0
limited range (says upstream)


Problem partially solved:
MadVR presents the SDR source as 10 bit SDR output, after which Windows does its HD Color mapping: this takes the colors in PC range, and that's why it turns gray.

I think I'd prefer for MadVR to convert it into HDR10 format, identical to that used in true HDR movies, and then avoid Windows doing any color conversion.

[quietvoid]

I think you just need to not use Windows' HDR?
And leave madVR to enable HDR output (through the GPU APIs directly), with profiles if needed.

madVR does not convert SDR back to HDR10.

[Tronic]

I prefer to use HDR mode all the time because that allows Youtube HDR and other such things to work on desktop, and also because Windows color mapping in that mode is very good and there's a nice slider in HD Color options for desktop brightness.

But I've now setup two profiles, which work great:

"HDR": TV, BT.2020
"SDR": PC, BT.709 - but still report BT.2020 to display!

No gamma processing because there is no support for sRGB in MadVR and because the untouched gamma already looks good (might even be precisely correct, I cannot tell).

Automatic switching code:

if (HDR) "HDR"
else "SDR"

[Asmodian]

You run your desktop in HDR mode all the time?

That is a lack of worry about burn in that I can respect (but not emulate)! :scared:

[SamuriHL]

Seriously lol

[Tronic]

You run your desktop in HDR mode all the time?

That is a lack of worry about burn in that I can respect (but not emulate)! :scared:

In Windows HD Color settings there is a slider to control how bright SDR content appears when in HDR mode, so it doesn't burn your eyes (or the screen in case you worry of that). Dark mode UIs on desktop and websites also help!

Display burn in I am absolutely not scared of. TVs evolve at such a rate that I wouldn't keep one for more than a few years anyway. A few years back you couldn't get 4K/120 or VRR, and soon enough I'll be replacing the current C9 with a bigger screen as the insanely high prices of those come down. Maybe the peak brightness keeps improving, and 8K panels certainly are coming in (in case anyone can find use for that resolution). Good times :)

[Asmodian]

I use a decent SDR calibration, I cannot handle the Windows SDR->HDR look. :(

and 8K panels certainly are coming in (in case anyone can find use for that resolution). Good times :)

I can see a really good use for a 75"-85" 8K screen as a desktop monitor. That would be a really nice working surface. It won't be that long. :)

[Tronic]

I use a decent SDR calibration, I cannot handle the Windows SDR->HDR look. :(

Out of curiosity, which gamma curve do you calibrate the desktop for? I find all desktop stuff using different curves anyway.

For a long time most games just ignored gamma or hardcoded 2.0 (x*x and √x). New games have configurable gamma values (defaulting to 2.2) and some might even be using the sRGB gamma ramp (linear region for the darkest shades). (And luckily a select few now support proper HDR.) Then, I am pretty sure that most video material is actually BT.709 and no-one bothered the difference between that and sRGB. Photographs... Maybe sRGB if processed with good software, or in rare cases might even include colour profiles for extended gamuts. Website and UI colors: whatever happened to look good on the uncalibrated display of the guy who designed it (not to mention that Mac and PC always were quite different).

I still couldn't find out which gamma ramp Windows SDR-to-HDR is using, but judging from the slight visual difference to the sRGB which I am used to, I presume BT.709 (should buy a calibrator and measure). At least the primaries seem to be BT.709, which fortunately are identical to those of sRGB. I have forced standards mode in Windows (i.e. use BT.2020 on TV all the time).

[SamuriHL]

I have a picture mode for 2.2 and another for 2.4 depending on what I'm viewing and when.

[Asmodian]

Then, I am pretty sure that most video material is actually BT.709 and no-one bothered the difference between that and sRGB.

What would you want to do differently between BT.709 and sRGB content? There is nothing different between them that should be bothered about.

You never calibrate your display to the BT.709 or sRGB gamma curves. Always use BT.1886 or pure power, even theoretically, for calibrating a display for BT.709 or sRGB content. The near black linear region in those gamma curves is intended to deal with issues converting the early digital video data to display on a CRT. They are basically hacks to do something like BT.1886 without any specifics of the display and should never be used as calibration targets.

That said, whatever transformation Windows does to compress the SDR desktop into the the bottom of the HDR signal is very far removed from a proper calibrated 2.2/2.4/BT.1886 SDR image on my C7/C9/CX. It isn't even trying to get close as far as I can tell.

I have a picture mode for 2.2 and another for 2.4 depending on what I'm viewing and when.

Yeah, me too. I usually use 2.4 (dark room).

[SamuriHL]

Daytime viewing for me requires 2.2. Movie nighttime viewing is done at 2.4. That works out well for me.

[quietvoid]

Spent the whole day fixing my HDR. Looks way better now.
@chros if you don't mind: https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/topic/lg-c8-lut/page/18/#post-30095

As for madVR, I had a quick look at R19 vs single steepness 600 and to be honest I'd be fine with either, there really is not much difference.
Guess we'll know more with the next build.

[SamuriHL]

Assuming the next build changes anything. It could just be a new expiration. We can't assume anything given how busy he's been.

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

[quietvoid]

I've been working on some formulas to make 2 lines based curves adaptive by DPL, and ended up making a couple presets. From very high to very low.
However my preference is still a curve very similar to R19, which is the "high" preset.

There is little difference in midtones brightness between presets at 870 DPL, and the highlight detail is pretty much the same most of the time.
Very low might leave more place for stronger contrast recovery but I didn't really test yet.

I'd post on AVS but madshi wants some final proposals and we're waiting for Fer15 to be able to test, because I don't know yet if the presets I've made are good enough for him.

I'm still using single steepness for actual watching for now (because of the artifacts I've brought up).
Otherwise my settings for 132: https://postimg.cc/dhKcm9gx

If you want to test the new bright & very low curves:
High: https://gist.github.com/quietvoid/cf1454ad05efba1ad34cf6963b55ca1a
Very low: https://gist.github.com/quietvoid/467e1bb8a08dcf58491e5f995fe43c8e

[SamuriHL]

Awesome. I'll try to get some tests in with these this week some time. I got Raya coming so that'll be a good one to play with. I've also been using single steepness 600 for movie watching lately. It'll be interesting to see how this latest information plays out.

[Magik Mark]

Thanks QuietVoid for sharing!

[SamuriHL]

I tried your new setting with your high curve. I like it. That looks very nice and well balanced.

[quietvoid]

It's pretty much the same as R19 was for 870 nits.

[SamuriHL]

I never got around to r19 lol

Sent from my SM-G998U1 using Tapatalk

[chros]

Guys, have you seen this sh!tshow about the new EVO panel/ecosystem crap? :D
link (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2021-lg-oled-c1-g1-owners-thread-faq-no-price-talk.3190432/post-60754597), link (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2021-lg-oled-c1-g1-owners-thread-faq-no-price-talk.3190432/post-60754864)

[VBB]

@ttnuagmada also has an account here, btw. Good job, Adam! We kind of expected the C-Series to be gimped by software this year, and this proves it.

[SamuriHL]

Uhhhhh, what the??? That doesn't seem good!

[VBB]

Well, the fact that the C1 can be un-gimped is great, but why LG chose to do this to begin with is beyond me. They should have kept the same picture quality across the lines, just like all the other years. Too late now, but the real sh1tshow, IMO, is the fact that you can buy a C1 right now and not know what type of panel you'll end up with (see the C1/G1 thread over at AVS for more info). That brings us full circle to the original meaning of the term 'panel lottery', namely when Samsung started using different manufacturers' panels into its same model/series TVs. And that is total BS, if you ask me.

[SamuriHL]

It really is and gives me pause about buying anything new. Not that I was really in the market anyway but at some point I'm going to replace the plasma in the bedroom with my c8 and get a larger screen for the living room. Guess it's not this year.

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[chros]

the real sh1tshow, IMO, is the fact that you can buy a C1 right now and not know what type of panel you'll end up with ... And that is total BS, if you ask me.
Yes, that's what I meant :D
I mean they could put the old panels into the crippled Bx/Ax series and not handicapping the precious Cx series ... And putting the new Evo panel into CXs as well?!!! :D ... what a mess ... it's just beyond me ...

[Asmodian]

LG is in the process of converting all (most?) of their OLED lines into EVO lines. As capacity is transitioning the switch gets messy; they run out of older panels so they have to use the EVOs instead.

Since stockpiling last year's panels was never a realistic option, and they did not have enough EVO panels when the C1 was released, this seems like a reasonable situation. No one gets a worse panel than they were expecting, do they? I do hate panel lottery within one model, but at least the unexpected panel is better than the at release panel. :p