MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[Sunset1982]

So here it is: The MadVR / LG OLED Thread.

Let's discuss the benefits of different TV modes (pc mode, game mode, aso...) and the best TV settings for the highest possible quality in use with madvr.


Here is my setup:

LG 65'' C8 OLED (latest firmware: 04.10.31)
HTPC with AMD Vega RX 56 (Driver 19.3.2)
MadVR (Version 0.92.17)
Windwos 10, Kodi DS Player

My current settings:

TV:
non-pc mode (HDMI 1)
Picture mode: technicolor Preset
Real Cinema: On
True Motion / Motion Pro: off/off
Black Level: auto
HDMI Ultra Deep Color: on

AMD settings:

RGB 4:4:4, 10 Bit


MadVR:
PC levels (0-255)
display bitdepth: auto
display modes: 2160p23 for movies

other madvr quality settings:

reduce banding artifacts low (default strength), low (fade in/out)
chroma upscaling: NGU AA, medium
image upscaling: NGU Sharp, high



What would be the benefits of using pc mode? chroma 4:4:4?

I thought that pc mode only works with 60hz and when changing to 23/24hz it pops out of pc mode. Is that right? (I've read that some years ago in a tv review...)

edit:

I just testet tv mode with different driver settings (rgb444, ybcbr 444, ybcbcr 422) and I got banding with all settings in pc mode while I get no banding with normal mode and rgb 4:4:4.

[Asmodian]

Have you used the ChromaRes.png (http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png) test image to see if you are getting sub-sampled chroma? I assume you are anytime you are not in PC mode. If so I would never go above Jinc for chroma upscaling, and 3-tap spline is probably more appropriate; more is simply wasting power.

I also have noticeably worse banding when sending my TV (LG OLED C7) more than 8 bits in PC mode, have you tried using RGB 4:4:4 8 bit in your AMD settings?

[VBB]

This is actually a good opportunity for @Sunset1982 to test if 10-bit output with AMD has more banding than 8-bit output. That's something us Nvidia users simply can't do. I'm mostly interested in non-PC mode, since I rely on De-Judder.

[Blue_MiSfit]

I've had good luck using MadVR to output high quality UHD SDR and HDR10 to several LG TVs (B6 / C7). It's fiddly, but it does work :)

[RXP]

Just a tip for anyone trying HDR tone mapping with an LG. Just setup two profiles, one with passthrough and one with tone mapping and a keyboard shortcut for each. Ensure you're on the right drivers for passthrough to work. Then flip back and forth between them to see what you like.

Asmodian, thanks for that info. I was wasting GPU power with chroma upsampling. All this is so placebo!

[j82k]

As I wrote in the madVR thread I was trying to use pc-mode on the LG C8 using ycbcr444, which seemed to work ok for SDR.

But that didn't last long, watched an HDR movie and noticed problems with the near-black range. Looking at an HDR black clipping pattern it looks messed up in pc-mode compared to non-pc, switching to full/limited RGB didn't change that.

What I also noticed is that in SDR the gamma curve is different (darker) in pc-mode even when using the exact same settings as in non-pc mode.

So I'm back to standard hdmi input mode. Getting 444 chroma on this TV seems to be impossible without some major issues. :mad:

[kostik]

As I wrote in the madVR thread I was trying to use pc-mode on the LG C8 using ycbcr444, which seemed to work ok for SDR.

But that didn't last long, watched an HDR movie and noticed problems with the near-black range. Looking at an HDR black clipping pattern it looks messed up in pc-mode compared to non-pc, switching to full/limited RGB didn't change that.

What I also noticed is that in SDR the gamma curve is different (darker) in pc-mode even when using the exact same settings as in non-pc mode.

So I'm back to standard hdmi input mode. Getting 444 chroma on this TV seems to be impossible without some major issues. :mad:

So you are back to RGB 8bit full for both SDR and HDR content or you switch to RGB 12bit full @23Hz for HDR?

What chain did end up using:? graphics card->madVR->TV ?

[iSeries]

PC mode is indeed unusable for an HTPC on the C8, many issues. In non-PC mode, 12bit RGB results in more banding than 8bit, so I use 8bit. This was also the case for the C7. I have an nvidia card so no way of testing 10bit RGB output from the GPU.

I find limited>full>limited to be optimal for this TV but other people may of course have a different opinion on that.

[j82k]

What chain did end up using:?

madVR limited 8-bit > gpu fullRGB 8-bit > TV limited
(this is the common sequence to describe the chain I think)

is what I've been using previously and what I'm currently using again for both SDR and HDR. That will mess up levels outside of madVR though.
But if I want to game or do something else I'll just switch to a preset with the TV set to full.
Always 8-bit, like iSeries said 12-bit = banding.

[iSeries]

What I still want to do is compare ycbcr output from the GPU vs RGB. As the TV in non-PC mode is converting to ycbcr anyway, the GPU might actually do as good (or better) job than the TV at this and with nvidia (from what I remember) there is a 10bit option when outputting ycbcr. Will look at this over the weekend.

[j82k]

Out of curiosity, what color format do newer blu-ray players output?

[Klaus1189]

Do you think of color space or color subsampling, or both?

[iSeries]

Out of curiosity, what color format do newer blu-ray players output?

My 1080p bluray player (couple years old) has options for 4:2:2 ycbcr, 4:4:4 ycbcr, or RGB. With the UHD players I believe they offer those choices too, along with up to 12bit output. By default on 'auto' pretty sure they all output ycbcr at either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4

[SamuriHL]

I find limited>full>limited to be optimal for this TV but other people may of course have a different opinion on that.

That's what I use.

[nevcairiel]

From reading all this, its a shame that LG really hasn't change over all the years. They were always decent to good at making panels, but everything else, be it software or processing .. just sub-par.

PS:
I don't like limited -> full -> limited, because it messes up the ability to play any other type of content, ie. Netflix etc, since the Desktop is still full-range, but the TV expects elsewise.
Unless browsers obey the video range setting in the graphics control panel reliably? I can't say I have really tested that. But still leaves the 10ft UI etc with wrong color range.

[SamuriHL]

I would agree with that assessment. Nowhere near the quality of my Panny plasma. Still very bitter I can't get a Panny screen in the states as I like the looks of their newest OLED.

[kostik]

Anyone using madVR 'tonemapping' test builds ? What settings do you use for hdr?

[VBB]

So, why do you guys have it at Limited -> Full -> Limited? I've had zero issues with the entire chain set to 8-bit Full. Just curious.

[j82k]

Mainly two reasons for the limited - full - limited chain.

I use the LG C8 as a secondary screen, so I couldn't care less if this messes up levels outside of madVR. All that stuff is done on my primary monitor.


1. My panel is a bit darker and also greener towards the left side and I'm using a shader to somewhat rectify this.
With this chain, video levels above 235 aren't clipped so the shader can go above 235. With a full-full-full chain white would already be maxed out.
Also in rare cases (content with elevated blacks) I can set madVR levels a little bit below 16 which again with a full-full-full chain you can't.


2. This is just a pure assumption but since most devices for video playback will require the TV to be set to limited, I'm just assuming that if there is a difference (which I haven't tested) it will be limited causing less trouble with this TV.

[Sunset1982]

I did some quick banding tests a view days ago. 8bit gave me the best results with the least amount of banding. 10bit had a bit o banding. I will do some advanced tests wirh more settings within the next days. I will receive my new i1disply pro colorimeter (old one is broken) to do some calibration work, maybe I can get some better results.

btw, I am very happy with my vega56 card. Got ootb 23,976 with no framedrops/repeats in over 3-5 hours. Performance is also good. The only downside is coilwhine. Its the first time I got a card with this amount of coilwhine.

I am planning to move my c8 oled to my bedroom and buy a new c9 for my htpc usage in the living room. Mainly because of the new bfi and calibration feautures. with the 2019 lg oled range it is possible to calibrate pc mode and game mode. hopefully we can use a bit more of the tvs settings within pc mode (real cinema). we will see what the first reviews will show.

[huhn]

why not switch to the sony oled?

sony "always" had a PC mode that worked with every refreshrate and BFI is a default feature too.

[iSeries]

Cost. The Sony was $1000 more expensive than my C8, and the C8 was a hard enough deal to strike with the missus. If the LG and Sony oleds were the same price, I doubt many people would walk out the shop door with the LG.

[nevcairiel]

Indeed the Sonys are more expensive. Especially at 55" the price difference is huge, it shrinks a bit when you go to 65" though - at least around here.
That is, when you stick to the cheaper Sony 8-series (ie. AF8, and presumably the 2019 AG8), and 9-series is really expensive, but that probably also compares more to an E8 then.

There is a good chance 2020 Sony OLEDs might tick all the right boxes for me, just have to debate myself if the 10" upgrade from 55" to 65" is worth an extra 50% cost.
Interestingly, the 55" Sony AG8 OLED isn't even that expensive anymore, relatively speaking. My 1080p LCD from Sony that I bought in 2012 was more expensive at the same screen size.

[huhn]

there is always the last years version the MSRP for the 2019 LG much higher then the last year sony model.

i hardly believe HDMI 2.1 is worth that we are still missing GPU with it anyway.

[nevcairiel]

A TV that costs me 1500-2000, I buy to last at least 5 years, if not longer (who knows where future in TV goes), and I would hate myself to buy something now and then lack HDMI 2.1. I can wait for a GPU to come out later, as long as the TV is prepared.
Not being able to run 4k 10-bit 60Hz makes the display setup unnecessarily complex, so I rather wait. The panels and HDR performance is only going to get better every year as well.

Of course everyone is free to make that choice for themselves. :)

[huhn]

but 10 bit is well known to be problematic on LG OLED so what's the point.

[nevcairiel]

Or maybe I'll buy a Sony instead. Or they fix it in next years models. The possibilities are endless, stop being so narrow minded.

[SamuriHL]

Yea and he has access to the Panny OLED's which, ok, this year might be missing a few boxes, but, perhaps next year they get them all right. :) I decided not to wait anymore. I got the C8 last summer when the prices were still around 3 grand and I got it for MUCH less than that. I've absolutely loved it since I got it, but, nevcairiel is correct....if you're going to buy something get it with the boxes checked that make you happy for AT LEAST 5 years. Which is what I did with my Panny plasma. Moved that to the other room after 5 years and bought the C8. I've no intention of upgrading, so, yes, I will miss out on HDMI 2.1. But my entire chain doesn't have it anyway. Receiver, uhd player, video card....all HDMI 2.0. I suspect in 5 years it'll be more fun decisions. LOL

[Sunset1982]

what is the best test pattern to test chroma on a 4k oled?

[huhn]

http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png

not in a browser.
for proper testing check sharpness level like 0.

Or maybe I'll buy a Sony instead. Or they fix it in next years models. The possibilities are endless, stop being so narrow minded.
this is not really tested properly so yes i will not believe it until it happens. so i have to stick to companys that did this correct in the past. the LG OLED displays are 6 years or older now so they had there time.

the rtings banding test is a bad joke just look at how a 8 bit pc monitor is tested and see how they judge banding on them...
@SamuriHL
pannasonic is not an option for me. there "PC mode" is unreliable and difference a lot between different TV. could be perfect could be the worst.
the philips is more of an option for me.

[SamuriHL]

I just got the new LG C8 firmware pushed a few minutes ago. This should have the fix for the black issues. We should see what else it fixes. Won't have time this week to really play with it but this is interesting.

[iSeries]

The flashing is for the most part fixed. They also made near-black much, much darker with .31. Many people are actually rolling back to the previous firmware after updating because of this.

[Sunset1982]

They changed the gammacurve with the latest update. Without a colorimeter you will get a gamma of 2.7 near black, which is a lot to dark...

[SamuriHL]

You ain't kidding! I hadn't had time to really sit and look at it until last night. The black level is WAYYYYYYYYYYY too dark. That's their "fix"? "Well, they can't see the flashing cause we made black the equivalent of a back hole!" Brilliant.

[chros]

Guys, does the 7 series (b7/c7) also affected by this? (Since prices just dropped under a spiritual limit, I started to think about it again :) )

[iSeries]

Nope the 7 series don't have these issues

[Gser]

i hardly believe HDMI 2.1 is worth that we are still missing GPU with it anyway.

DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680 × 4320) at 60 Hz with 30 bit/px RGB color and HDR, or 4K UHD (3840 × 2160) at 120 Hz with 30 bit/px RGB color and HDR. Display Stream Compression was also introduced in 2.1

All you need is a displayport 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 cable. We will have to see if adaptive sync is supported in this configuration.

[chros]

Nope the 7 series don't have these issues
Thanks, that's a good news.
Does anybody have a b7/c7 here?

[Sunset1982]

has anyone ever done an autocal with calman and madvr as a pattern generator on his 2018 oled? I wonder what settings I should use (madvr, amd driver, calman) to get some good results...

[nevcairiel]

All you need is a displayport 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 cable. We will have to see if adaptive sync is supported in this configuration.

Thats not going to be cheap however, since that would need to be an active cable with a brand new HDMI 2.1 transceiver - which are expensive. I wonder if the DP port even provides enough power to run such a thing at high speed.

[ashlar42]

Thats not going to be cheap however, since that would need to be an active cable with a brand new HDMI 2.1 transceiver - which are expensive. I wonder if the DP port even provides enough power to run such a thing at high speed.I remember seeing people on Reddit trying this with Samsung TVs supporting VRR. And failing.
Although here I see a guy claiming success with a RTX 2070 (https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/adjbed/is_gsynccompatible_freesync_displayport_only/egjogq3?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x).

[VBB]

Thanks, that's a good news.
Does anybody have a b7/c7 here?

65" C7 here. I usually upgrade my TV every two years, so 2019 would be it, but I'm not sure if it's worth it yet. The C7 has been mostly fantastic. I'd be interested in a new model that could do 4:4:4 across all frame rates, and without disabling Real Cinema/TruMotion, but that is unlikely to happen with LG. 24fps motion on OLED is unbearable without those, at least for me.

[chros]

Nope the 7 series don't have these issues
What about the B8? (It has a different processor, and I saw that you have C8.)

huhn meantioned ABL in an another thread, so I went through this ASBL thread (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv.html) and I was shocked by it and ABL.
Do you know how it works on B8?

Thanks!

[iSeries]

The B8 of course has the same processor as the 7 series, but unfortunately does suffer the same issues as the C8 etc. The C8s have had their update to 'fix' the overshoot issue. The B8 hasn't yet received any update to fix that issue.

The ABL and ASBL work exactly the same across the 8 series and also the 7 series. ABL is rarely seen. For SDR, if APL is less than 150 nits, ABL doesn't activate. For HDR, well its there I guess but honestly i never see it. ASBL is more of a nuisance in my opinion, but fortunately this takes seconds to disable through the service menu.

[RXP]

What are people's strategy for dealing with double tone mapping? I stick to the older drivers that have correct HDR metadata passthrough and assume MadVR tells the TV the content is a max of 650 nits so the TV doesn't bother to tone map. Has anyone got a way to test this?

[chros]

The B8 of course has the same processor as the 7 series, but unfortunately does suffer the same issues as the C8 etc.
Thank you, I just ordered a 65B8S, I hope its panel will be fine.

[QBhd]

My June 2007 "720p" (rectangular pixel) Plasma just died today (sounds like a power supply problem, keeps clicking like it's being unplugged over and over)... Will be getting an LG OLED on Wednesday. I can grab a B7 "display model" for $1500 CDN. Do you guys think the $500-800 in savings vs a B8 or better is too much of a risk for a TV that has been in use on the show-room? Money is tight, but I can afford 55" B's and maybe even C's... Don't really have Sony money though :(

QB

[Asmodian]

I would be worried about a display model OLED. :(

[chros]

Will be getting an LG OLED on Wednesday. I can grab a B7 "display model" for $1500 CDN.
What is the size for this price?
The prices are going down at the moment before the new 9 series hit the market this month. You can get a new 55B7 for 950 pounds in the UK online.
Only go for it if you can go to the shop and try out the display by yourself (taking a laptop with you).
I would be worried about a display model OLED. :(
You're right. I was offered an ex display model 55B7 for 550 pounds that had logo burn in, so I skipped it.

[QBhd]

Yeah that's my thoughts too... I'm thinking I should just find the cheapest C8 and roll with that. Now, C8 vs B8... I was reading this thread and others for months, but have not really seen a consensus regarding the two. So let me ask a simple question, Is the a9 processor in the C8 worth the extra money since the B8 has the old a7 processor.

QB