MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[Sunset1982]

So here it is: The MadVR / LG OLED Thread.

Let's discuss the benefits of different TV modes (pc mode, game mode, aso...) and the best TV settings for the highest possible quality in use with madvr.


Here is my setup:

LG 65'' C8 OLED (latest firmware: 04.10.31)
HTPC with AMD Vega RX 56 (Driver 19.3.2)
MadVR (Version 0.92.17)
Windwos 10, Kodi DS Player

My current settings:

TV:
non-pc mode (HDMI 1)
Picture mode: technicolor Preset
Real Cinema: On
True Motion / Motion Pro: off/off
Black Level: auto
HDMI Ultra Deep Color: on

AMD settings:

RGB 4:4:4, 10 Bit


MadVR:
PC levels (0-255)
display bitdepth: auto
display modes: 2160p23 for movies

other madvr quality settings:

reduce banding artifacts low (default strength), low (fade in/out)
chroma upscaling: NGU AA, medium
image upscaling: NGU Sharp, high



What would be the benefits of using pc mode? chroma 4:4:4?

I thought that pc mode only works with 60hz and when changing to 23/24hz it pops out of pc mode. Is that right? (I've read that some years ago in a tv review...)

edit:

I just testet tv mode with different driver settings (rgb444, ybcbr 444, ybcbcr 422) and I got banding with all settings in pc mode while I get no banding with normal mode and rgb 4:4:4.

[Asmodian]

Have you used the ChromaRes.png (http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png) test image to see if you are getting sub-sampled chroma? I assume you are anytime you are not in PC mode. If so I would never go above Jinc for chroma upscaling, and 3-tap spline is probably more appropriate; more is simply wasting power.

I also have noticeably worse banding when sending my TV (LG OLED C7) more than 8 bits in PC mode, have you tried using RGB 4:4:4 8 bit in your AMD settings?

[VBB]

This is actually a good opportunity for @Sunset1982 to test if 10-bit output with AMD has more banding than 8-bit output. That's something us Nvidia users simply can't do. I'm mostly interested in non-PC mode, since I rely on De-Judder.

[Blue_MiSfit]

I've had good luck using MadVR to output high quality UHD SDR and HDR10 to several LG TVs (B6 / C7). It's fiddly, but it does work :)

[RXP]

Just a tip for anyone trying HDR tone mapping with an LG. Just setup two profiles, one with passthrough and one with tone mapping and a keyboard shortcut for each. Ensure you're on the right drivers for passthrough to work. Then flip back and forth between them to see what you like.

Asmodian, thanks for that info. I was wasting GPU power with chroma upsampling. All this is so placebo!

[j82k]

As I wrote in the madVR thread I was trying to use pc-mode on the LG C8 using ycbcr444, which seemed to work ok for SDR.

But that didn't last long, watched an HDR movie and noticed problems with the near-black range. Looking at an HDR black clipping pattern it looks messed up in pc-mode compared to non-pc, switching to full/limited RGB didn't change that.

What I also noticed is that in SDR the gamma curve is different (darker) in pc-mode even when using the exact same settings as in non-pc mode.

So I'm back to standard hdmi input mode. Getting 444 chroma on this TV seems to be impossible without some major issues. :mad:

[kostik]

As I wrote in the madVR thread I was trying to use pc-mode on the LG C8 using ycbcr444, which seemed to work ok for SDR.

But that didn't last long, watched an HDR movie and noticed problems with the near-black range. Looking at an HDR black clipping pattern it looks messed up in pc-mode compared to non-pc, switching to full/limited RGB didn't change that.

What I also noticed is that in SDR the gamma curve is different (darker) in pc-mode even when using the exact same settings as in non-pc mode.

So I'm back to standard hdmi input mode. Getting 444 chroma on this TV seems to be impossible without some major issues. :mad:

So you are back to RGB 8bit full for both SDR and HDR content or you switch to RGB 12bit full @23Hz for HDR?

What chain did end up using:? graphics card->madVR->TV ?

[iSeries]

PC mode is indeed unusable for an HTPC on the C8, many issues. In non-PC mode, 12bit RGB results in more banding than 8bit, so I use 8bit. This was also the case for the C7. I have an nvidia card so no way of testing 10bit RGB output from the GPU.

I find limited>full>limited to be optimal for this TV but other people may of course have a different opinion on that.

[j82k]

What chain did end up using:?

madVR limited 8-bit > gpu fullRGB 8-bit > TV limited
(this is the common sequence to describe the chain I think)

is what I've been using previously and what I'm currently using again for both SDR and HDR. That will mess up levels outside of madVR though.
But if I want to game or do something else I'll just switch to a preset with the TV set to full.
Always 8-bit, like iSeries said 12-bit = banding.

[iSeries]

What I still want to do is compare ycbcr output from the GPU vs RGB. As the TV in non-PC mode is converting to ycbcr anyway, the GPU might actually do as good (or better) job than the TV at this and with nvidia (from what I remember) there is a 10bit option when outputting ycbcr. Will look at this over the weekend.

[j82k]

Out of curiosity, what color format do newer blu-ray players output?

[Klaus1189]

Do you think of color space or color subsampling, or both?

[iSeries]

Out of curiosity, what color format do newer blu-ray players output?

My 1080p bluray player (couple years old) has options for 4:2:2 ycbcr, 4:4:4 ycbcr, or RGB. With the UHD players I believe they offer those choices too, along with up to 12bit output. By default on 'auto' pretty sure they all output ycbcr at either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4

[SamuriHL]

I find limited>full>limited to be optimal for this TV but other people may of course have a different opinion on that.

That's what I use.

[nevcairiel]

From reading all this, its a shame that LG really hasn't change over all the years. They were always decent to good at making panels, but everything else, be it software or processing .. just sub-par.

PS:
I don't like limited -> full -> limited, because it messes up the ability to play any other type of content, ie. Netflix etc, since the Desktop is still full-range, but the TV expects elsewise.
Unless browsers obey the video range setting in the graphics control panel reliably? I can't say I have really tested that. But still leaves the 10ft UI etc with wrong color range.

[SamuriHL]

I would agree with that assessment. Nowhere near the quality of my Panny plasma. Still very bitter I can't get a Panny screen in the states as I like the looks of their newest OLED.

[kostik]

Anyone using madVR 'tonemapping' test builds ? What settings do you use for hdr?

[VBB]

So, why do you guys have it at Limited -> Full -> Limited? I've had zero issues with the entire chain set to 8-bit Full. Just curious.

[j82k]

Mainly two reasons for the limited - full - limited chain.

I use the LG C8 as a secondary screen, so I couldn't care less if this messes up levels outside of madVR. All that stuff is done on my primary monitor.


1. My panel is a bit darker and also greener towards the left side and I'm using a shader to somewhat rectify this.
With this chain, video levels above 235 aren't clipped so the shader can go above 235. With a full-full-full chain white would already be maxed out.
Also in rare cases (content with elevated blacks) I can set madVR levels a little bit below 16 which again with a full-full-full chain you can't.


2. This is just a pure assumption but since most devices for video playback will require the TV to be set to limited, I'm just assuming that if there is a difference (which I haven't tested) it will be limited causing less trouble with this TV.

[Sunset1982]

I did some quick banding tests a view days ago. 8bit gave me the best results with the least amount of banding. 10bit had a bit o banding. I will do some advanced tests wirh more settings within the next days. I will receive my new i1disply pro colorimeter (old one is broken) to do some calibration work, maybe I can get some better results.

btw, I am very happy with my vega56 card. Got ootb 23,976 with no framedrops/repeats in over 3-5 hours. Performance is also good. The only downside is coilwhine. Its the first time I got a card with this amount of coilwhine.

I am planning to move my c8 oled to my bedroom and buy a new c9 for my htpc usage in the living room. Mainly because of the new bfi and calibration feautures. with the 2019 lg oled range it is possible to calibrate pc mode and game mode. hopefully we can use a bit more of the tvs settings within pc mode (real cinema). we will see what the first reviews will show.

[huhn]

why not switch to the sony oled?

sony "always" had a PC mode that worked with every refreshrate and BFI is a default feature too.

[iSeries]

Cost. The Sony was $1000 more expensive than my C8, and the C8 was a hard enough deal to strike with the missus. If the LG and Sony oleds were the same price, I doubt many people would walk out the shop door with the LG.

[nevcairiel]

Indeed the Sonys are more expensive. Especially at 55" the price difference is huge, it shrinks a bit when you go to 65" though - at least around here.
That is, when you stick to the cheaper Sony 8-series (ie. AF8, and presumably the 2019 AG8), and 9-series is really expensive, but that probably also compares more to an E8 then.

There is a good chance 2020 Sony OLEDs might tick all the right boxes for me, just have to debate myself if the 10" upgrade from 55" to 65" is worth an extra 50% cost.
Interestingly, the 55" Sony AG8 OLED isn't even that expensive anymore, relatively speaking. My 1080p LCD from Sony that I bought in 2012 was more expensive at the same screen size.

[huhn]

there is always the last years version the MSRP for the 2019 LG much higher then the last year sony model.

i hardly believe HDMI 2.1 is worth that we are still missing GPU with it anyway.

[nevcairiel]

A TV that costs me 1500-2000, I buy to last at least 5 years, if not longer (who knows where future in TV goes), and I would hate myself to buy something now and then lack HDMI 2.1. I can wait for a GPU to come out later, as long as the TV is prepared.
Not being able to run 4k 10-bit 60Hz makes the display setup unnecessarily complex, so I rather wait. The panels and HDR performance is only going to get better every year as well.

Of course everyone is free to make that choice for themselves. :)

[huhn]

but 10 bit is well known to be problematic on LG OLED so what's the point.

[nevcairiel]

Or maybe I'll buy a Sony instead. Or they fix it in next years models. The possibilities are endless, stop being so narrow minded.

[SamuriHL]

Yea and he has access to the Panny OLED's which, ok, this year might be missing a few boxes, but, perhaps next year they get them all right. :) I decided not to wait anymore. I got the C8 last summer when the prices were still around 3 grand and I got it for MUCH less than that. I've absolutely loved it since I got it, but, nevcairiel is correct....if you're going to buy something get it with the boxes checked that make you happy for AT LEAST 5 years. Which is what I did with my Panny plasma. Moved that to the other room after 5 years and bought the C8. I've no intention of upgrading, so, yes, I will miss out on HDMI 2.1. But my entire chain doesn't have it anyway. Receiver, uhd player, video card....all HDMI 2.0. I suspect in 5 years it'll be more fun decisions. LOL

[Sunset1982]

what is the best test pattern to test chroma on a 4k oled?

[huhn]

http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png

not in a browser.
for proper testing check sharpness level like 0.

Or maybe I'll buy a Sony instead. Or they fix it in next years models. The possibilities are endless, stop being so narrow minded.
this is not really tested properly so yes i will not believe it until it happens. so i have to stick to companys that did this correct in the past. the LG OLED displays are 6 years or older now so they had there time.

the rtings banding test is a bad joke just look at how a 8 bit pc monitor is tested and see how they judge banding on them...
@SamuriHL
pannasonic is not an option for me. there "PC mode" is unreliable and difference a lot between different TV. could be perfect could be the worst.
the philips is more of an option for me.

[SamuriHL]

I just got the new LG C8 firmware pushed a few minutes ago. This should have the fix for the black issues. We should see what else it fixes. Won't have time this week to really play with it but this is interesting.

[iSeries]

The flashing is for the most part fixed. They also made near-black much, much darker with .31. Many people are actually rolling back to the previous firmware after updating because of this.

[Sunset1982]

They changed the gammacurve with the latest update. Without a colorimeter you will get a gamma of 2.7 near black, which is a lot to dark...

[SamuriHL]

You ain't kidding! I hadn't had time to really sit and look at it until last night. The black level is WAYYYYYYYYYYY too dark. That's their "fix"? "Well, they can't see the flashing cause we made black the equivalent of a back hole!" Brilliant.

[chros]

Guys, does the 7 series (b7/c7) also affected by this? (Since prices just dropped under a spiritual limit, I started to think about it again :) )

[iSeries]

Nope the 7 series don't have these issues

[Gser]

i hardly believe HDMI 2.1 is worth that we are still missing GPU with it anyway.

DisplayPort 1.4 can support 8K UHD (7680 × 4320) at 60 Hz with 30 bit/px RGB color and HDR, or 4K UHD (3840 × 2160) at 120 Hz with 30 bit/px RGB color and HDR. Display Stream Compression was also introduced in 2.1

All you need is a displayport 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 cable. We will have to see if adaptive sync is supported in this configuration.

[chros]

Nope the 7 series don't have these issues
Thanks, that's a good news.
Does anybody have a b7/c7 here?

[Sunset1982]

has anyone ever done an autocal with calman and madvr as a pattern generator on his 2018 oled? I wonder what settings I should use (madvr, amd driver, calman) to get some good results...

[nevcairiel]

All you need is a displayport 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 cable. We will have to see if adaptive sync is supported in this configuration.

Thats not going to be cheap however, since that would need to be an active cable with a brand new HDMI 2.1 transceiver - which are expensive. I wonder if the DP port even provides enough power to run such a thing at high speed.

[ashlar42]

Thats not going to be cheap however, since that would need to be an active cable with a brand new HDMI 2.1 transceiver - which are expensive. I wonder if the DP port even provides enough power to run such a thing at high speed.I remember seeing people on Reddit trying this with Samsung TVs supporting VRR. And failing.
Although here I see a guy claiming success with a RTX 2070 (https://www.reddit.com/r/nvidia/comments/adjbed/is_gsynccompatible_freesync_displayport_only/egjogq3?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x).

[VBB]

Thanks, that's a good news.
Does anybody have a b7/c7 here?

65" C7 here. I usually upgrade my TV every two years, so 2019 would be it, but I'm not sure if it's worth it yet. The C7 has been mostly fantastic. I'd be interested in a new model that could do 4:4:4 across all frame rates, and without disabling Real Cinema/TruMotion, but that is unlikely to happen with LG. 24fps motion on OLED is unbearable without those, at least for me.

[chros]

Nope the 7 series don't have these issues
What about the B8? (It has a different processor, and I saw that you have C8.)

huhn meantioned ABL in an another thread, so I went through this ASBL thread (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv.html) and I was shocked by it and ABL.
Do you know how it works on B8?

Thanks!

[iSeries]

The B8 of course has the same processor as the 7 series, but unfortunately does suffer the same issues as the C8 etc. The C8s have had their update to 'fix' the overshoot issue. The B8 hasn't yet received any update to fix that issue.

The ABL and ASBL work exactly the same across the 8 series and also the 7 series. ABL is rarely seen. For SDR, if APL is less than 150 nits, ABL doesn't activate. For HDR, well its there I guess but honestly i never see it. ASBL is more of a nuisance in my opinion, but fortunately this takes seconds to disable through the service menu.

[RXP]

What are people's strategy for dealing with double tone mapping? I stick to the older drivers that have correct HDR metadata passthrough and assume MadVR tells the TV the content is a max of 650 nits so the TV doesn't bother to tone map. Has anyone got a way to test this?

[chros]

The B8 of course has the same processor as the 7 series, but unfortunately does suffer the same issues as the C8 etc.
Thank you, I just ordered a 65B8S, I hope its panel will be fine.

[QBhd]

My June 2007 "720p" (rectangular pixel) Plasma just died today (sounds like a power supply problem, keeps clicking like it's being unplugged over and over)... Will be getting an LG OLED on Wednesday. I can grab a B7 "display model" for $1500 CDN. Do you guys think the $500-800 in savings vs a B8 or better is too much of a risk for a TV that has been in use on the show-room? Money is tight, but I can afford 55" B's and maybe even C's... Don't really have Sony money though :(

QB

[Asmodian]

I would be worried about a display model OLED. :(

[chros]

Will be getting an LG OLED on Wednesday. I can grab a B7 "display model" for $1500 CDN.
What is the size for this price?
The prices are going down at the moment before the new 9 series hit the market this month. You can get a new 55B7 for 950 pounds in the UK online.
Only go for it if you can go to the shop and try out the display by yourself (taking a laptop with you).
I would be worried about a display model OLED. :(
You're right. I was offered an ex display model 55B7 for 550 pounds that had logo burn in, so I skipped it.

[QBhd]

Yeah that's my thoughts too... I'm thinking I should just find the cheapest C8 and roll with that. Now, C8 vs B8... I was reading this thread and others for months, but have not really seen a consensus regarding the two. So let me ask a simple question, Is the a9 processor in the C8 worth the extra money since the B8 has the old a7 processor.

QB

[chros]

Is there any settings that need to be disabled (apart from the obvious ones) either in service menu or in normal menu? I plan to disable ASBL in in-start service menu, what about e.g. "pixel shift"?

[chros]

Is the a9 processor in the C8 worth the extra money since the B8 has the old a7 processor.
I don't really know, but not for me. The idea is using madvr that we have to disable almost every image processing of the TV, so I don't really see the point of having the a9. Not to mention that the new hdmi 2.1 in the new versions will render our TVs basically worthless :)
So my thinking was: pay the minimum and we can upgrade later if it's absolutely needed.

[huhn]

hdmi 2.1 is not making a TV worthless it simply doesn't add anything to it yet.

[SamuriHL]

The promise of HDMI 2.1 is very real but it requires either having everything in the chain be HDMI 2.1 compliant or splitting things like video and audio in order to make use of those features. You'll get the full range of 4K 60 with 4:4:4 and 12 bit, plus 120 support. That's all well and good. There aren't many 4k 60 movies out there as of yet, and nothing does 4k 120 that I'm aware of (didn't say it didn't exist, just that I'm not aware of any sources for it). So that's all well and good and definitely forward thinking. If you plan on upgrading everything in the near term to HDMI 2.1 compliant equipment, waiting to get a proper HDMI 2.1 TV does make sense. Especially if you don't upgrade for a long time between TV's. That being said, the existence of HDMI 2.1 does NOT make our HDMI 2.0 TV's completely obsolete by any means.

As for a display model OLED, you couldn't pay me to take one. LOL Having come off a plasma screen, I was already careful anyway when I got my C8 but I treat it more delicately than I do the plasma. I think the fears of burn in are somewhat overblown, but, for a TV being used as a display model, I'd say that puts the risk of burn in near 99.99999999%. LOL

[nevcairiel]

I've said this before, but for me its just simple logic: Its 2019, the first 2019 TVs already ship with HDMI 2.1, so by 2020 its going to be almost all of them. I can wait another year, and every year that I delay an upgrade also increases my theoretical budget. Some people certainly upgrade TVs a lot more often then me though, and thats fine. :)
And even if I don't buy a HDMI 2.1 AVR immediately, I certainly will within the next couple years. That said, I'll likely do it immediately, since my old one is pre-Atmos/DTS:X. But good AVRs cost more then TVs, its ridicoulous, if you add decent speakers to that (good, but not outrageous), you can almost buy 2 TVs. Luckily good speakers last you a lifetime. Just need to get the Atmos Height-Speaker extension.

Thinking about it, it somehow seems silly to try to aim for the best TV possible and even wait years and years to get one, considering its in reality not *that* expensive if you compare it to other things. High-end phones cost as much as a good 55" TV. My PC setup probably costs as much as a few of those.
My main concern is where I would put all the old ones.. :)

[SamuriHL]

EXACTLY the mentality I go in with. I spent 3 grand on my Panny Plasma 5 years ago. I relegated that to my bedroom (ok, 65" Plasma MIGHT be a bit overkill for a room the size of my bedroom, but, whatever LOL). I have my old Sony 50" sitting in the garage waiting to figure out if someone wants it or not one of these days. I'll take the "what to do with the old one" problem. I mean, people spend 800 bucks on a freaking video card that will be "obsolete" in 3-4 years. A TV for 2 grand every 5 years isn't outrageous. And it'll take that long, IMO, before the realization of HDMI 2.1 comes to pass. I do agree with you on receivers, though. That one is a hard pill to swallow. I've upgraded mine 3 times in the last 5 years and am not keen to do it again. I also need to add the ATMOS height speakers when I get a job to finish out that installation. I'm not in the "wait til everything's perfect" mindset. It's constantly changing no matter when we buy. To me, waiting for everything to be just right means you'll be waiting forever. I get it, setting a goal on what you want is fine. But at some point you just break down and go for it.

[nevcairiel]

My main concern is that the drawbacks of current-gen OLEDs frighten me a bit. My room is never pitch-black during daytime (not even close), and I feel like the black level of my Sony is "just fine", so I've been debating myself on the drawbacks of OLED, vs. the drawbacks of Quantum-Dot Full-Grid LCDs, etc.

Burn-in, ABL trouble, motion stutter, LG OLEDs have all these firmware issues, Sony OLEDs are super expensive, etc. If I had a house with a dedicated video room and full black out, I might think differently (or go projector).
I could get a QLED-type TV a size class bigger then an OLED for the same price. So...

[Sunset1982]

How do the sony Oleds perform in pc mode? any downsides there?

I want an oled with a 4:4:4 mode that can display 24hz with no banding and where it is possible to activate BFI or Truemotion...

[SamuriHL]

You are absolutely correct about the drawbacks of current LG OLED tech. I suspect we'll find out not much has improved in a lot of those areas for the C9. I never even looked at Sony due to the price. I typically wait til night to watch UHD movies on my C8 because of the brightness issues. Watching tv is fine but a good HDR movie requires "proper" ambient lighting. Personally I can live with (most of) the drawbacks on my C8 at least until a new tech comes to rival and/or surpass it.

Speaking of firmware, though, I really have to wonder what the hell LG was thinking with their latest. I'm less than amused.

[huhn]

How do the sony Oleds perform in pc mode? any downsides there?

I want an oled with a 4:4:4 mode that can display 24hz with no banding and where it is possible to activate BFI or Truemotion...

if they work like all over not low end sony TVs you get 4:4:4 with everything from BFI to motion interpolation. you usually just need the picture mode "graphic".

be aware that it is limited to 48 hz BFI that'S to panel limitations for 24p which is quite low. i personally couldn't deal with that.

it's supposed to be notable better in term of banding but a perfect screen is not there 8 bit madVR should be save.

[chros]

hdmi 2.1 is not making a TV worthless it simply doesn't add anything to it yet.

That being said, the existence of HDMI 2.1 does NOT make our HDMI 2.0 TV's completely obsolete by any means.

You are right of course, I meant the used market (money wise) after 2-3-5 years when someone wants to replace it.

My main concern is where I would put all the old ones.. :)

Put it in another room, give it to a family member / neighbour / exgirlfriend/wife :D
Joke aside, if you go for a dealer/retailer with which you can exchange your current TV 3-5 years later for a newer model, then problem solved.

My main concern is that the drawbacks of current-gen OLEDs frighten me a bit. My room is never pitch-black during daytime (not even close), and I feel like the black level of my Sony is "just fine", so I've been debating myself on the drawbacks of OLED, vs. the drawbacks of Quantum-Dot Full-Grid LCDs, etc.

I'm in the same situation, during bright daylight my CCFL LCD is perfect, during the evening is another matter :)

If we only talk about madvr content: 3dluts rescue us, we can create ones with elevated shadows even for gamma 2.2 for day usage (and they be be switched with a script if needed), even using hdr2sdr pixelshader.
If normal content is considered (that I don't have :D ) I'm pretty sure similar effects can be achieved by using the TV settings for day usage.

Burn-in, ABL trouble, motion stutter, LG OLEDs have all these firmware issues
Well, I can tell you my opinion between the 2 technology later :)

I could get a QLED-type TV a size class bigger then an OLED for the same price. So...
Personally, I would go for the size then. But I always wanted to have an OLED. :)

I typically wait til night to watch UHD movies on my C8 because of the brightness issues. Watching tv is fine but a good HDR movie requires "proper" ambient lighting.
:D That's just insane! :D Just choose a UHD bright comedy during the day :)

[iSeries]

Nice one LG. From Vincent Teoh:

https://twitter.com/Vincent_Teoh/status/1113439059899187200

"Unpopular opinion: unless you were seeing lots of near-black flashing/ macroblocking in regular viewing on your 2018 LG OLED with Alpha 9 chipset, AND have access (self or hire pro calibrator) to CalMAN AutoCal, you probably shouldn't upgrade to firmware 04.10.31."

[SamuriHL]

:D That's just insane! :D Just choose a UHD bright comedy during the day :)

Meh, I do most of my movie watching at night anyway. I just have WAY too much ambient light during day time. (A couple picture windows on both sides of the house and a very open living room/kitchen design). At night, lighting is almost perfect.


As for Vincent's opinion, yea, no kidding. I 100% agree with that and need to find a way to go back to the previous version. Cause it SUCKS.

[chros]

Guys, I need your professional help, the title says all. But I *can* display 1080p resolution on it! Wtf?!

Symptoms:
- everything is good until the sign-in screen of Windows (probably before the drivers get loaded), straight after that Windows goes nuts:
-- completely grey background with only a mouse cursor on both external monitor and on TV for about 30-60 sec
-- after that the sign-in screen is presented and Windows try to sign in automatically over-and-over again, black/green/sign-in screen is flashing
-- you can't do/see anything (no ctrl+alt+del, etc) , just reset / turn-off button
- if PC is connected straight to the B8 (no AVR in the chain):
-- the above happens even if the TV is off (standby) !!!
- if AVR is in the chain and B8 is Off:
-- Windows works fine on the external monitor (seems that the AVR blocks the connection between the PC and TV in this case)
- if AVR is in the chain and B8 is On:
-- Windows goes nuts as above described

What does this tell us?

I tried out all the following (I aged couple years during 2 days :) ):
- 5 (4 different) HDMI cables
- different HDMI ports of the TV
- different wall sockets for the TV and PC (I thought maybe some interference)
- no matter if "HDMI Deep color" is On/Off in the TV settings
- no matter if HDMI label is set to HDMI X / PC in the TV settings
- disconnected the other external monitor
- took out the AVR from the chain
- took out the GPU and put it back in the PC
- reset the PC BIOS (just in case)
- removed the nvidia driver with DDU and installed a different one
- tried to hook up my laptop (optimus hd400 + gt650m on Win8.1) but no matter what I did (e.g. delete the b8 in CRU and restart) there wasn't any 4k resolution to choose from in Intel control panel :D
- and who knows what else that I don't remember :)

The whole thing started like this:
- since my previous TV was/is also an LG, Windows didn't recognised the new device and I didn't have 4k resolution to choose from (neither in Win settings nor in nvidia settings)
- I manually deleted the existing TV device from Windows settings and after the reboot nothing has been changed: still wasn't any 4k resolution
- deleted all the LG devices from CRU (!) and after reboot the new device appeared correctly (checked in CRU) BUT - luckily - still set to 1080p (as the previous was). That's why I knew that this resolution works!
- after that I tried to select a 4k resolution and that's when the sh*t just hit the fan :)

Right now I can only think of 3 things:
- Windows issue -> reinstall is required
- TV firmware issue (*.36 , the latest one) -> try to revert manually back to a previous one and pray :)
- PC hardware issue / incompability -> I don't have a clue how could I diagnose this part

The specs in my signature (except for the TV).

[Asmodian]

My first guess is something CRU did (Windows reinstall), it is at that part of the story where it sounds like things went wrong.

[Sunset1982]

it's supposed to be notable better in term of banding

You mean better than the LG tv?

[huhn]

back when the Martian movie thingy was tested yes the sony was able to present the sky without a ton of bending.

[chros]

My first guess is something CRU did (Windows reinstall), it is at that part of the story where it sounds like things went wrong.
Yep, thanks. What popped into my mind this morning is that I could test my system from booting Live OSs from USB (before reinstalling the whole thing), e.g. Ubuntu Linux or Win10.
I just searched for Win10 Live and we can create USB boot media with: Rufus (https://rufus.ie/), WinToUSB (https://www.easyuefi.com/wintousb/)
So, that's what I will try first. :)

[chros]

... I could test my system from booting Live OSs from USB (before reinstalling the whole thing), e.g. Ubuntu Linux or Win10.

Thanks, Asmodian, reinstalling Win10 solved the issue, I don't know what happened. I thought LTSB is rock stable but ... ) Before that I tried it out with Ubuntu Live usb pendrive to rule out hardware issues (WinToGo was absolutely unusable (slow) on a pendrive).

[chros]

I. SDR/HDR10 in PC mode on B8 (firmware 04.10.36), test results (details in my signature):

*Chroma 4:4:4*
- the result is really close to 4:4:4 (although not exactly) in 23p as well both with SDR and HDR10 content, tested with:
-- ChromaRes.png (http://madshi.net/madVR/ChromaRes.png), test2 (http://cdn.avsforum.com/b/be/be355246_vbattach233862.png), Quick brown fox (http://www.ozone3d.net/public/jegx/201412/chroma-subsampling-test-4k-tv.png), etc.
-- Ted pointed out that it's not fully 4:4:4 (https://www.displaycalibrations.com/lg_2018_oled_profiling_using_lightspace.html) (under "Differences between YCbCr and RGB-Video" section) (although the difference is still huge compared to 4:2:2 in normal (HDMI) mode):
--- this can be visible on the yellow and the bottom row text of Quick brown fox (http://www.ozone3d.net/public/jegx/201412/chroma-subsampling-test-4k-tv.png) image

*23p judder free playback*
- there *is* chroma 4:4:4 *and* judder free 23p/24p/etc playback in PC mode!!! (stutter is still there but that's normal on OLEDs), tested with:
-- custom timing 23p with CRU (with the help of madvr) (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998)
-- testufo (https://www.testufo.com/) and judder_23.976fps*.mp4 file in Mehanik HDR10 test pattern (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2943380-hdr10-test-patterns-set.html)
--- the above tests were validated by switching between normal (RealCinema Off and On) and PC modes
-- BFi is unusable (flickering darker picture)

*Banding*
SDR content:
- there's banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is minimal between the 2); tested with:
-- grayscale ramps files in AVSHD 709 test pattern set (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/948496-avs-hd-709-blu-ray-mp4-calibration.html)
-- this is visible with the above test files even from a normal viewing distance (~3 meters), but it's *barely* noticeable with normal content
HDR10 content:
- there's heavy (!) banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is clearly visible between the 2); tested with:
-- grayscale ramps files in Mehanik HDR10 test pattern (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2943380-hdr10-test-patterns-set.html)
-- this is clearly visible with the above test files even from a normal viewing distance (~3 meters), and it's present with normal content as well

So, for me, since 23p judder free playback is available in PC mode, near chroma 4:4:4 rules out everything, so I'm quite happy about it!

II. SDR/HDR10 Normal HDMI mode (non-PC mode) notes:

*Chroma 4:4:4*
- not supported, only chroma 4:2:2 (in every refresh rates)

*23p judder free playback*
- supported *if* Real Cinema is On *and* True Motion is Off
- stutter is still present but that's normal on OLEDs
- BFi is unusable (flickering darker picture)

*Banding*
- 8bit: no banding
- 10bit: minimal banding only (not visible from normal viewing distance even when using test patterns)

*Strange firmware bug* ?
- overscan kicked in native 4k resolution when mpc-hc/be+madvr changed file or was closed. wtf?! :)
-- changing resolution / frequency doesn't help anything
-- only switching TV Off then On fixes the problem: but it only last until the first use of mpc-hc/be :)
- the above problem is non-existing in PC mode!

*Note about HDR10 and madVR*
- on a HDR capable display "HDR passthrough" is the recommended setting! (although madVR can do dynamic tonemapping in recent test builds but the image becomes way too soft compared to passthrough)
- B8 tonemapping (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/post-58739264) with different HDR10 metadata
- Dynamic Tonemapping can be enabled in the TV: this will also touch the lower end (0-100 nits) not just the highlight range (>100 nits)
-- it's a matter of preference whether to use it (I do like it)

IV. External 3DLUT creation for SDR content:

*Notes*
- the display only can be profiled reliably (creating a 3dlut) using SDR content (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lg-2017-oled-calibration-thread-and-settings.2853954/page-66#post-55310736)!!!
-- to auto calibrate it with HDR10 we would need Calman AutoCal to adjust 1024 grayscale values and the 3 RGB values only! (not possible to create a 3dlut (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/post-57320220) with AutoCal either for HDR10)
-- Dolby Vision would need a separate signal generator!
- the display can even behave strange (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lg-2017-oled-calibration-thread-and-settings.2853954/post-55316570) due to (mostly) ABL behaviour (see below) using SDR content
- we will create only one DCI-P3 3dlut for night usage and madVR will auto convert other formats (e.g. BT.709)
- note: out of 3 created 3dluts only 1 was acceptable after checking it with dark scenes, so you also might have to create multiple ones if you won't be lucky

*ABL behaviour*
- 2018 models have at least 3 types of ABL (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-oled-c8-owners-and-discussion.2162797/post-28296896): ASBL (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv.html), ABL (can't be turned off) and ANSD (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk.2962154/post-57859488) (can be turned off (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk.2962154/post-60020683) recently)
- highest nit setting with SDR content where ABL still doesn't kick in: 39 Oled light -> 141 nits (so rtings (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b8-oled#comparison_618) did a good job)
-- tested with: meter + 100% full screen white @ D65 white level calibration
- hence I set oled light using SDR content to 33 (~120 nits) for night and 39 (~140 nits) for day usage (ISF Bright and Dark presets)

*Color gamut, Gamma and Black level TV settings*
- Gamut: "Wide" option is the closest to DCI-P3, tested with meter + HCFR
- Gamma (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/madvr-argyllcms.1471169/post-40108362): 2.4 for night and 2.2 for day usage
- Black level needs to be set to "High" on the TV, Full range (0-255) output has to be selected in graphics driver and PC Levels (0-255) in madVR

*MadVR calibration settings*:
- "display is already calibrated"
- DCI-P3 + 2.4 power gamma (for night)
- "send bt.2020 to display" must be *unchecked* :
-- although this option instructs B8 to switch to bt.2020 mode even if "Auto" option is selected (TV correctly reports it) but it results in oversaturated colors in every

*DisplayCal settings for SDR content*:
- select "madVR SDR profile (D65, BT.709)" profile
- device tab: enable LG WRGB spectral correction
- 3dlut tab: DCI-P3 D65 + 2.4 gamma + relative + 100% output offset

*Newer approach*:
- SDR with HDR effect (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1947198#post1947198)

III. Communicating with B8 (firmware 04.10.25)

This part is here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1920372#post1920372).

[huhn]

are these "calibrator" taking 3D LUT into account?
just use native to do the gamut mapping with the 3d LUT.

[chros]

are these "calibrator" taking 3D LUT into account?
:D No, they aren't :)
just use native to do the gamut mapping with the 3d LUT.
Yes, thanks, but which one is it? Wide?

[huhn]

i don't know you have a meter so well use it i guess and give send BT 2020 a try the TV may response differently.

[SamuriHL]

So, I tested SDR on B8 (firmware 04.10.36) and I settled down with PC mode, the results (details in my signature):
- in normal mode (non PC mode) overscan kicked in native 4k resolution when mpc-hc/be+madvr changed file or was closed. wtf?! :)
-- changing resolution / frequency doesn't help anything
-- only switching TV Off then On fixes the problem: but it only last until the first use of mpc-hc/be :)
- the above problem is non-existing in PC mode!


This problem can be fixed if you want to. I went through this same nonsense when I switched back from PC mode to standard mode and I was eventually able to fix it. I'd have to go digging in the settings again to find which one fixed it but I had to toggle something off and back on again and then it worked. I think it's a really weird bug in their firmware. In any case, if you ever want this fixed let me know and I'll go hunt it down.

[VBB]

chros, huhn is correct. Calibrators don't use "wide" for normal calibrations. For 3D LUTs, you want the display in its widest (native) mode, so for the LGs "wide" is the proper setting. "Send BT.2020" doesn't make a difference here.

As to the overscan issue, strangely enough this happened to me very recently on my C7. First time ever since I bought it in 2017. Hasn't done it since.

Did you actually verify that 4:4:4 works below 60Hz? I tested everything back when I first got the TV and noticed that the LGs are seriously limited in PC mode.

[VBB]

Oh, and my OLED light is at 45. I never notice any ABL. ASBL was disabled in the service menu.

[chros]

i don't know you have a meter

:D You are absolutely right.

overscan issue, ... happened to me very recently on my C7

This problem can be fixed if you want to. I went through this same nonsense ... and I was eventually able to fix it ... find which one fixed it but I had to toggle something off and back on again ... if you ever want this fixed let me know and I'll go hunt it down.

Thank You guys, at least I know I'm not alone :)
SamuriHL, it would be nice if you could find it / link it, if it's not a big hustle to do so. I'll add it to the above post of mine then. Thanks!

chros, huhn is correct. Calibrators don't use "wide" for normal calibrations. For 3D LUTs, you want the display in its widest (native) mode, so for the LGs "wide" is the proper setting. "Send BT.2020" doesn't make a difference here.

Thanks, I know that you already told me this and you were right, Wide is the correct one, but using my chain/system, "Send BT.2020" needs to be *unchecked*, otherwise I get oversaturated colors (see the above post).

Did you actually verify that 4:4:4 works below 60Hz? I tested everything back when I first got the TV and noticed that the LGs are seriously limited in PC mode.

Yes, I did, added the to above post.

Oh, and my OLED light is at 45. I never notice any ABL. ASBL was disabled in the service menu.

Thanks, I haven't turned off ASBL in InStart menu yet (I haven't seen it in action yet). I've also added ABL section to the above post.

[SamuriHL]

Thank You guys, at least I know I'm not alone :)
SamuriHL, it would be nice if you could find it / link it, if it's not a big hustle to do so. I'll add it to the above post of mine then. Thanks!


So go into picture settings, under Aspect Ratio set it to original and then Just Scan On. Auto did not work for me. Once I changed this, the stupid problem has gone away permanently.

[chros]

So go into picture settings, under Aspect Ratio set it to original and then Just Scan On.
Thanks, I'll give it a try and report back. It's set to "Just scan" now (both in normal and PC mode).

[SamuriHL]

Yea, and like I said previously, when I switch modes from PC back to standard, I have to go toggle Just Scan to off and then back on. So I really think they got some weird bug going on.

[chros]

Since I'm almost finished (?) the SDR setup, can you help me with HDR passthrough?
- what TV settings do you recommend? (either in normal or PC mode)
- what PC / madvr settings?
- creating 3dlut for this (if it's achievable)

Thanks

[svengun]

there is always the last years version the MSRP for the 2019 LG much higher then the last year sony model.

i hardly believe HDMI 2.1 is worth that we are still missing GPU with it anyway.

I'm kinda expecting a firware update for that, aren't you ?

In my case for the RTX 2070

[huhn]

unlikely

[ashlar42]

Considering the newer LGs have the possibility of doing 3DLUT calibration automated through Calman, is there any point in having madVR handle an externally created one? I suspect not but I thought it was worth asking. Thank you.

[chros]

Good question, I wonder there's anybody compared the 2 (in SDR mode, since you can't use external one with HDR passthrough) ...
Since I don't have Calman (for now?), I only made a 3dlut for SDR content and HDR10 is untouched.

[Warner306]

Considering the newer LGs have the possibility of doing 3DLUT calibration automated through Calman, is there any point in having madVR handle an externally created one? I suspect not but I thought it was worth asking. Thank you.

The accuracy of the Calman Autocal is not that great and still well below DisplayCal, so the external 3D LUT should produce a better result. If HDR is profiled, however, tone mapping is involved, so the curves used by DisplayCal may or may not be better than the tone curves used by Calman.

HDR 3D LUTs are also static, so creating them with madVR at least provides you with the option to create as many static LUTs as you want and select the desired 3D LUT curve before playback with hdr profile rules. You would have to keep out-of-gamut values sent to the 3D LUT to a minimum by pre-measuring all of your HDR movies with madMeasureHDR to ensure you know the exact peak brightness of each source to select the right mastering peak 3D LUT for each title. Still not as great as dynamic tone mapping solutions though...

[ashlar42]

Still not as great as dynamic tone mapping solutions though...I was led to believe this was relevant for projectors only. Was I wrong? Or are you referring to LG's built-in dynamic tone mapping solution?

[SamuriHL]

It's relevant for anything that has to tone map. Which at present means everything because I don't seem to have a 10000 nit display kicking around. :D So it depends on what you trust to do your tone mapping. The theory being that if you have something like my C8 and you have madvr tone map to ~700 nits, the C8 will have little to nothing to do because the video is already within the max nit range for the display. So no, it's not only relevant for projectors at all.

[ashlar42]

It's relevant for anything that has to tone map. Which at present means everything because I don't seem to have a 10000 nit display kicking around. :D So it depends on what you trust to do your tone mapping. The theory being that if you have something like my C8 and you have madvr tone map to ~700 nits, the C8 will have little to nothing to do because the video is already within the max nit range for the display. So no, it's not only relevant for projectors at all.
This is curious, as I initially understood things as you described them here to be. But then I read different opinions.
Is it possible to completely disable LG's tone mapping, if madVR does all the work already? In the case of preanalyzed files, it should do that on a frame by frame level, which makes me think it should provide the best results. Better probably than what Dolby Vision can achieve (if that works on a scene by scene basis, as I remember).

[chros]

Is it possible to completely disable LG's tone mapping, if madVR does all the work already?
No.

In the case of preanalyzed files, it should do that on a frame by frame level, which makes me think it should provide the best results. Better probably than what Dolby Vision can achieve (if that works on a scene by scene basis, as I remember).
Let's not mix the result of an algo with the director's intent (if there's any :D) ...

[SamuriHL]

Sadly we can't disable the built in tone mapping but if you send a frame that is lower than the max nits of the tv then it shouldn't reprocess it.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Warner306]

This is curious, as I initially understood things as you described them here to be. But then I read different opinions.
Is it possible to completely disable LG's tone mapping, if madVR does all the work already? In the case of preanalyzed files, it should do that on a frame by frame level, which makes me think it should provide the best results. Better probably than what Dolby Vision can achieve (if that works on a scene by scene basis, as I remember).

Dolby Vision can be per frame or per scene at the discretion of the person doing the grading. But it can also include trim passes where the content is graded to a lower peak brightness by the colorist. If the display has a good Dolby Vision implementation (like an LG OLED), it should have a significant advantage over HDR10 content, which puts the entire onus on interpreting the source values on the display. Dolby Vision is designed to give the creator complete control over what the video will look like on the end display. Its failing besides its expense is that some displays do a poor job of reproducing the Dolby Vision standard (like Sony OLEDs), which is the fault of the display manufacturers more than Dolby Vision.

[SamuriHL]

And the fact that it's a closed system. That's a pretty big issue. I hold out hope that eventually madshi can do something with hdr10+ for those of us on non hdr10+ hardware... looking at you lg. Being able to use the hdr10+ metadata to drive tone mapping might in theory give us better results. But Dolby vision being closed is not helping.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Warner306]

Yeah, I don't know if external devices can actually make use of the HDR10+ metadata or not. HDR10+ has embedded metadata that specifies the tone curve to be used for each scene. Vincent at HDTV Test says HDR10+ has been a disappointment so far because it appears to make no visual difference at all with displays with a peak brightness above 500 nits. The embedded tone curves must only get aggressive when the display has less than 500 nits peak brightness or they don't exist above that value.

[SamuriHL]

Right, but, what I'm wondering is if madshi can make use of that scene by scene metadata to enhance his own tone mapping algorithm. I don't really know, it's more a question than anything. Honestly I wish LG would simply add it since it wouldn't cost them anything to do so.

[Warner306]

If the peak brightness of each scene is reported in the metadata, maybe it can be utilized. I honestly think madMeasureHDR measurements are already plenty accurate enough. When I import content into Davinci Resolve and look at the HDR scopes panel, the frame peaks reported in madVR appear to be almost accurate to the pixel of where the frame peaks on the waveform in Davinci resolve.

Take this waveform, for example. It is difficult to see the frame peak in this screenshot, but madMeasureHDR says it peaks at exactly 100 nits and the highest peak in Davinci Resolve is right at code value 512 (100 nits):

http://upload.vstanced.com/images/2019/08/03/5017308b45867b391c359093d2d10e48.png

madMeasureHDR reports this frame peaks at exactly 1,000 nits, which is code value 768. And Resolve also shows the highest peak is at exactly 768 (1,000 nits):

http://upload.vstanced.com/images/2019/08/03/7f13759e69fd74fb4c507350004de945.png

The HDR10 metadata used by madVR is already quite accurate. An equally accurate way to segregate a movie into scenes without visible brightness changes is what is missing.

[SamuriHL]

Madshi has worked really hard to avoid big brightness changes within scenes. They spent a LONG time on figuring out how to properly identify scene changes so they can apply brightness changes properly. It's gotten very good. For measurements they already know, to the frame, the brightness which gives madvr a fighting chance of avoiding brightness flashes. It's quite frankly amazing what they've been able to do which is why I use it the way I do. I was simply wondering if HDR10+ would offer anything additional over what madvr does. It might not. And that's ok.

[Warner306]

A neural network that can detect scene changes should be the most accurate way to detect scene changes for the live algorithm with the fewest number of false scene detections. I don't know if Soulnight's scene detection improvements help you with HDR output, but they are already working pretty well with HDR to SDR output and have done a good job of using the measurement data to predict any brightness jumps.

[SamuriHL]

I've not tried their tool to make the measurement files dynamic yet. It's on my list to get to but I need to dedicate some time to it so I can properly tweak it and test it against my current settings, etc. I just haven't had a chance since I started my new job in May to dedicate that much time. I'm already very happy with the results I'm getting with the latest test build and the measurement files. It works extremely well.

[Warner306]

Soulnight's tool will change the display target nits dynamically and not simply dynamically alter the tone curve shape, so it can't be used with HDR output. I knew that already, but forgot about it. It is reserved for HDR to SDR tone mapping where you use the relative SDR gamma curve to rescale the image to different target peaks.

[SamuriHL]

Ah that's right I do remember reading that. Well that's unfortunate. But it does save me a lot of testing time. LOL Like I said, though, I'm quite happy with what madvr is giving me with the measurement files.

[chros]

One that has an LG OLED can be interested in this: III. section (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836)

[SamuriHL]

C8 owners have something to smile about. Grab the 5.10.03 update as it seems to fix gamma black crush finally and seems to have improved dithering.

[QBhd]

Yes, it's a very nice boost to PQ even for someone like me that had the old but okay'ish x.x.15 firmware.

I have a quick question... in madVR with HDR tone mapping, what should I set "targer peak nits" to for a C8. I read it can do 820, but I don't have a meter to measure it.

QB

[SamuriHL]

I don't have a meter either. I typically set it to ~700-800 to make sure I'm under the max nits. Setting it slightly higher means that any frames that are slightly above the max nits of the TV won't be tone mapped by madvr, but, instead will be tone mapped by the TV. Which the C8 does a pretty good job at tone mapping. If you want to try to get as close as you can to the max theoretical nits you can try 800 and see how that looks to you. Right now I think I've got mine set ~750 or so. I keep messing with it to try to find that sweet spot without actually buying a meter, but, in the end ~700 works quite well and is most definitely under the max nit level for our TV.

[QBhd]

I was thinking the same thing. Good to hear another owner confirm it. Plus it always leaves the door open for another owner with proper gear to set us straight later on :P

BTW... I am stunned my ancient R9 270X can actually do any kind of 4k HDR. It took some work to get stable frames (especially on scenes with bitrates approaching 100k) but she does it! Even able to do tone mapping with NGU High for chroma! And to think this card was dead and I baked it in the oven to bring it back to life!

QB

[SamuriHL]

Yea, I suspect these panels vary in the actual max nits they can reach. IMO, better to be safe and keep it slightly under so that any tone mapping is handled by madvr. IMO it looks pretty damn awesome anywhere between 700 and 800.

That's awesome. I've no experience with the AMD cards. I'm loving my RTX 2070 right now. It works very well.

[j82k]

I think when using MadVRs tone mapping it is actually beneficial to send fake metadata to the TV instead of the real one. As you can see in the gif, the higher the maxCLL is in the metadata the more the TV will tone map.
But if you use MadVR for tone mapping you'd want the TV to do as little as possible which you can archive by sending the bogus metadata of either windows HDR or one of the older broken nvidia drivers.
This test was done on a C8, on other year models it might work differently.

https://i.imgur.com/717TZSf.gif

[SamuriHL]

That seems whacked though because those are sending, if memory serves, 1000 nits. What would be better is for madvr to send proper modified HDR metadata for the max target nits. You're saying it's not doing that?

[j82k]

I don't think madVR will modify the metadata. Not 100% sure on this though, maybe somebody else knows...

But when sending 1000 nits MDL metadata (like the fake one), the maxCLL value doesn't seem to matter. The TV will tone map the same as with MDL 4000/maxCLL 1000 in the gif, which is almost like clipping and I guess is what you'd want when letting madVR do the tone mapping.

[SamuriHL]

But if madvr were to modify the metadata to the max target nits, then, the TV wouldn't need to tone map at all. When madshi returns, it might be a good question to ask him and if it's not modifying the metadata, then maybe he can add an option to do so. I'd be curious to see what happens in that case.

[huhn]

madVR can/was already able to do that.

in in an older version you can even define the meta data.

[Warner306]

https://i.imgur.com/717TZSf.gif

That is a cool way to represent LG's tone mapping. Is the LG always brightening the highlights? It only seems to track 1:1 in the SDR range.

If madVR does the tone mapping, it is supposed to be sending both a mastering display peak value and an altered MaxCLL. Your graph implies any value 1,000 nits and under is virtually being represented with clipping. Which is ideal if you are using external tone mapping.

Someone with an HDFury should confirm madVR is actually sending those values to the display.

[j82k]

That is a cool way to represent LG's tone mapping. Is the LG always brightening the highlights? It only seems to track 1:1 in the SDR range.


This measurement was done using the technicolor preset at default settings. With it's custom white point it is quite a bit brighter than the more accurate warm2.
When I adjust color temperature to D65 the TV follows the EOTF more closely but also has a lower peak brightness.

As far as I know the C8s HDR EOTF tracking is designed for 700 nits peak so if the TV gets brighter than that it will go above the EOTF but you can adjust it using the 20 Point WB controls.

[SamuriHL]

madVR can/was already able to do that.

in in an older version you can even define the meta data.

That was my understanding, too, but, I'm far from any kind of expert in this HDR stuff. I would have thought tone mapping to a max nit level would change the metadata so the TV would know that it doesn't have anything to do.

[SamuriHL]

This measurement was done using the technicolor preset at default settings. With it's custom white point it is quite a bit brighter than the more accurate warm2.
When I adjust color temperature to D65 the TV follows the EOTF more closely but also has a lower peak brightness.

As far as I know the C8s HDR EOTF tracking is designed for 700 nits peak so if the TV gets brighter than that it will go above the EOTF but you can adjust it using the 20 Point WB controls.

That makes sense and may be where I got the recommendation for max target nit of 700 from originally. I think I'm running at 750 right now and it works well, but, I've not done any WB adjustments on mine.

[j82k]

madVR can/was already able to do that.

in in an older version you can even define the meta data.

That was my understanding, too, but, I'm far from any kind of expert in this HDR stuff. I would have thought tone mapping to a max nit level would change the metadata so the TV would know that it doesn't have anything to do.

So is that how it works? MadVR will send metadata according to whatever you specify in the "target peak nits" box? If so will it just use the specified value for both MDL and maxCLL?

[SamuriHL]

Partially. The MaxCLL is a little bit more complicated. I use measurement files and I *BELIEVE* madshi is using the 99% value for that. Don't quote me on this. I get very confused with all this HDR stuff at times. But yea, specifying the max target nits is SUPPOSED to change the metadata. Now the reason I was confused there is because we had very broken nVidia drivers for so long that it was always sending 1000 no matter what you set. Which on our OLED's would obviously tone map regardless of what you do. That's why your comment and graph raised an eyebrow cause I was like "waiiitttttt a minute that's not how I remember this working" LOL

[huhn]

who knowns what madVR is doing in term of HDR right now just wait for the next release and ask.

he changed to much to make this clear.

[SamuriHL]

I know. Hence my comment earlier that when he returns we should probably ask and get clarification. Right now I'm super happy with the latest beta build, the measurement files, and sending ~750 max target nits to the display. Now that LG finally fixed my C8 with the latest firmware, the result is freaking fantastic. Zero complaints here.

[j82k]

Now the reason I was confused there is because we had very broken nVidia drivers for so long that it was always sending 1000 no matter what you set. Which on our OLED's would obviously tone map regardless of what you do. That's why your comment and graph raised an eyebrow cause I was like "waiiitttttt a minute that's not how I remember this working" LOL

But the metadata only determines how the TV tone maps the HDR image and since there is no set standard for this, MadVR can't know what the TV will do with that. So the ideal case would be if the TV didn't do any tone mapping at all and would just follow the EOTF and clip at peak brightness so that MadVR is in full control of the tone mapping.

So the broken 1000 nits metadata wouldn't even matter when you use MadVRs tone mapping as with that metadata the TV will just clip at peak brightness like in my gif.

[Warner306]

This measurement was done using the technicolor preset at default settings. With it's custom white point it is quite a bit brighter than the more accurate warm2.
When I adjust color temperature to D65 the TV follows the EOTF more closely but also has a lower peak brightness.

As far as I know the C8s HDR EOTF tracking is designed for 700 nits peak so if the TV gets brighter than that it will go above the EOTF but you can adjust it using the 20 Point WB controls.

How do you create that graph? Is it not possible to do the same thing with pixel shader tone mapping enabled with HDR output checked?

madVR should set the MaxCLL and/or mastering display maximum luminance to the real display peak nits entered in madVR. Otherwise, the display won't be aware of the brightness of the source video after it has been rescaled. Every HDR video is tone mapped to the target display brightness you enter in madVR (~700 nits).

[SamuriHL]

I suppose, in theory, that's true. And yes we don't definitely know what the TV is doing with the tone mapped image from madvr. Madshi has recommended that we keep dynamic tone mapping enabled on the TV in hopes that it notices that it's already tone mapped. I'm not, however, sure I agree that the broken metadata didn't matter, though. It definitely seemed to make a difference in my testing.

[Warner306]

Dynamic tone mapping should ignore the metadata altogether and simply calculate the brightness of each incoming frame from the RGB values sent by madVR in real-time to determine how to tone map each scene.

According to j82k's graphs, you should get the most faithful representation of madVR's HDR to HDR tone mapping by disabling dynamic tone mapping in favor of using a static tone curve. Because the display chooses to follow the PQ curve 1:1 when it reads ~1,000 nit metadata, when it receives the RGB values from madVR, it should convert each RGB color to an equivalent PQ RGB value in the display panel without compressing any of them. If the RGB values are instead converted to YCbCr 4:2:2, the display would simply convert them back to the same PQ RGB value after it has processed the image. This means the input and displayed RGB values should stay the same, outside of consideration for very bright scenes that activate the display's ABL.

If there was additional compression or tone mapping at any point, the input RGB values would be converted to YCbCr and the display would compress some of the brighter pixels (compress Y) and apply additional desaturation to some of the brightest colors.

The static tone mapping in the C8 appears to display the SDR range (0-100 nits) 1:1 with the PQ EOTF and rolls off the remaining specular highlights later in the display curve. This would keep the image bright and accurate, but would most often clip some of the brightest scenes that have highlights near the video MaxCLL.

The dynamic tone mapping in the C8 and C9, on the other hand, is known to tone map the midtones of the SDR range at times, lowering the midtones for very bright scenes to preserve even more specular highlight detail and improve contrast and possibly even raising the midtones in other scenes to artificially brighten the picture. Outside of the brightest scenes, the midtones should stay neutral, so I don't know if the LG's are actually artificially boosting these scenes or not. If LG is always manipulating the midtones, I don't know if madVR's tone mapping can override this behavior, outside of improving specular highlight detail in some cases.

The tone curve used by madVR is BT.2390. BT.2390 avoids tone mapping the midtones completely if the display brightness is at least 480 nits and only rolls off the specular highlights. Compared to LG's existing static tone curve, this difference may only be visible in very bright scenes, where BT.2390 should retain more specular highlight detail and make the regions of the picture with highlights appear slightly dimmer from the more aggressive tone curve. BT.2390 recommends avoiding any tone mapping of the 0-100 nits SDR range, unless the display brightness is very limited. LG's dynamic tone mapping is not incorrect, but it chooses to tone map the SDR range (the midtones) in some scenes to better represent the source's contrast.

[SamuriHL]

Thank you for that very detailed explanation! That explains a LOT of what I've seen in testing over the last year. Indeed, dynamic tone mapping on the LG does brighten certain scenes as compared to having it turned off. I always thought this was "normal" and desired, but, if they are doing that in the SDR range then that's not desired at all given that the LG has more overall range in HDR than a projector. Therefore no need to compress the SDR range. It's been a while since I played with turning dynamic tone mapping off....maybe even before the nVidia driver fixes, and most certainly before I got my RTX and the latest LG firmware update. Hmmmmmmm. I think I'm going to have to do another round of testing!! This is potentially exciting. :)

[Warner306]

For what it's worth, Stacey Spears says he prefers to use the LG's dynamic tone mapping. I don't know what his reason is.

It would be nice if j82k could produce a graph of the tone curve produced by madVR to confirm it is working correctly and see what it looks like. Tone mapping to SDR gamma and PQ are completely different things and I don't know how much HDR output has been tested compared to SDR.

[SamuriHL]

Not a lot, sadly. I'm one of the few who seem to prefer to use madvr in that manner. And I really do prefer to use madvr in that manner. :D I would also love to see a curve if it's even possible to do so with madvr. That would be awesome cause it would give us more concrete data rather than "yea, it seems to look better or worse". And anecdotally, which of course I've only had a few minutes to test, I can see your point about disabling dynamic tone mapping. But, the other massive point here is that LG has finally fixed the freaking black crush so my detail is back. It's going to require some extensive testing but so far I like what i see with the LG disabled dynamic tone mapping, madvr set to 700 nits, are you nuts highlight recovery (cause, you know, I like the highlights :D), balanced fire, and obviously output in hdr set. I'm also using measurement file. Like I said, FAR more testing needed, probably Labor Day weekend I'll do some marathon viewing, but, this looks very promising so far!

[j82k]

It would be nice if j82k could produce a graph of the tone curve produced by madVR to confirm it is working correctly and see what it looks like.

MadVR's passthrough tone mapping doesn't seem to work with madTPG.

When I put the target peak nits to some low value like 400 nits I can see how the highlights get darker in movies, so madVR is tone mapping the picture.
But when measuring with madTPG it doesn't have any effect and will still measure up to 800+ nits.

[mini-moose]

Been trying to get madvr working on my setup for 4K HDR, but can't get it working without frame drops. Tried endless settings.

Granted, maybe my rig is too basic/old: i7-950 with 8gb ram (unused pc I decided to dedicate to it), GT 1030, LG OLED B6 (HDMI mode).
PC connected straight to TV with HDMI. Windows 10 x64 1903.

MPC-HC + madvr : almost works but occasionally stutters and drops frames.
DSPlayer+madvr: never even close to being smooth playback, choppy and drops frames like mad.

Plex and Emby seem to work well as far as I can tell.

Any suggestions would be highly appreciated!

[SamuriHL]

The 1030 is just too slow. You really need a 6gb 1060 minimum to drive uhd playback in madvr.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[QBhd]

Yeah that's a pretty low end card, I was going to say that if my 2GB 270X can do it, anything can... but I just looked at a few comparisons of the two and the 1030 is seriously limited in what it can do

QB

[mini-moose]

Might be, yeah. I have seen several posts from people who do use it and it works ok.

[SamuriHL]

It depends on many things. Doing straight passthrough for HDR on 23.976fps movies with something like bicubic chroma and potentially a few trade performance options with non error diffusion dithering.... yeah it'll work. Maybe. There's a lot of factors that go into it.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[mini-moose]

It depends on many things. Doing straight passthrough for HDR on 23.976fps movies with something like bicubic chroma and potentially a few trade performance options with non error diffusion dithering.... yeah it'll work. Maybe. There's a lot of factors that go into it.

Yeah, I tried to go down that route but still failing.

I wanted to use madvr for DSPlayer as I'm used to Kodi's interface and that's completely unusable.
No matter what I try, that won't even play somewhat smooth.
I always assumed DSP is using MPC in the background, so was very surprised by the big difference in performance.

I guess I'll have to use plex or emby for now.

[Warner306]

If you do a search for GT 1030 settings in the DSPlayer thread at the Kodi Windows support forum, you should be able to find stable settings that work with that GPU. I use DSPlayer regularly and the performance is identical to MPC. You need to lower the size of all queues and set image upscaling to DXVA2. Pixel shader tone mapping isn't possible.

[Warner306]

MadVR's passthrough tone mapping doesn't seem to work with madTPG.

When I put the target peak nits to some low value like 400 nits I can see how the highlights get darker in movies, so madVR is tone mapping the picture.
But when measuring with madTPG it doesn't have any effect and will still measure up to 800+ nits.

That's unfortunate. Can you post a graph showing where the roll-off starts when the C8 is calibrated to D6500 and 700 nits?

[j82k]

Well, this is the preset I currently use for watching movies. It's calibrated to D65 and tops out at 701 nits. I didn't do any adjustments for the highlights, only some changes in the SDR range and 2 Point High WB adjustments and it follows the EOTF much better than the brighter technicolor preset.
This was measured with 1000 nits metadata. I didn't do the metadata comparison for this one but I guess the roll-off would change similar like it did with my previous posted graph.

https://i.imgur.com/Tu14eSj.jpg

[Warner306]

That is an accurate curve, but it must clip some highlight detail. You prefer the extra brightness at the top end?

[SamuriHL]

I do. [emoji846] it's a fantastic experience.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[j82k]

As a dark room viewer I'm usually much more concerned about the low-end than the highlights. I rarely see clipped highlights but I'm probably not really sensitive to it. I could get higher D65 calibrated peak brightness by increasing 2P high green instead of lowering red and blue but then the highlights would go above the EOTF and that would need major 20 Point adjustments and I'm not a brightness junkie so I didn't even bother to try that.


Regarding the metadata discussion when using MadVR tone mapping:

I just remembered that the C8 shows different 20 Point WB adjustments points when it receives 1000/4000 nits metadata. And when playing a 4000 nits mastered movie with MadVR tone mapping enabled it still shows the 4000 nits adjustment points. This means that MadVR does not change the metadata just like I previously suspected. So when playing a 4000 nits movie and using MadVR tone mapping you'll basically get double tone mapping and the highlights will be darker than they should because the TV uses a more aggressive roll-off which MadVR doesn't know about. I'm still of the opinion that using 1000 nits fake metadata is the way to go when using MadVR's tone mapping for watching 4000 nits mastered movies.

[mini-moose]

If you do a search for GT 1030 settings in the DSPlayer thread at the Kodi Windows support forum, you should be able to find stable settings that work with that GPU. I use DSPlayer regularly and the performance is identical to MPC. You need to lower the size of all queues and set image upscaling to DXVA2. Pixel shader tone mapping isn't possible.

I'm not sure where lies the issue. The only thing I can think of is that I have also a normal kodi 17.6 installed on the same system, maybe they are clashing in some way. I didn't remove the other one as I couldn't even get MPC to play properly. I don't need need upscaling as this is only for 4K HDR playback.
I will try and look into the forum again. thanks.

[SamuriHL]

Wouldn't it be even better to have madvr send the proper modified metadata? That way it should stay under the max target nit and not trigger the TV's tone mapping. Right?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Warner306]

I just remembered that the C8 shows different 20 Point WB adjustments points when it receives 1000/4000 nits metadata. And when playing a 4000 nits mastered movie with MadVR tone mapping enabled it still shows the 4000 nits adjustment points. This means that MadVR does not change the metadata just like I previously suspected. So when playing a 4000 nits movie and using MadVR tone mapping you'll basically get double tone mapping and the highlights will be darker than they should because the TV uses a more aggressive roll-off which MadVR doesn't know about.

If that's true, I would consider HDR to HDR to be broken with static tone mapping. I have heard reports that it was clipping and doing strange things, so I did wonder. Are you sure you are using a compatible driver and one of the most recent beta builds?

You should find a way to gather some tangible proof and post in the main forum for madshi to look at it. Without the metadata, the display won't know how bright the source is. That kind of defeats the purpose of tone mapping the source before it reaches the display and ruins madVR's dynamic tone mapping if the display thinks the source is brighter than it actually is because you won't save any brightness at all. The metadata is the only data the display has to use to determine which display curve to use.

Maybe you need to reach out to Manni to see if he can test this by capturing the metadata at the other end with his HDFury Vertex. This has been in use for a long time, so I don't know why there haven't been more reports of issues.

[chros]

I just remembered that the C8 shows different 20 Point WB adjustments points when it receives 1000/4000 nits metadata. And when playing a 4000 nits mastered movie with MadVR tone mapping enabled it still shows the 4000 nits adjustment points. This means that MadVR does not change the metadata just like I previously suspected.
Amazing find, @jk82, as always! I'll take a look at my B8 (maybe during the weekend).

That way it should stay under the max target nit and not trigger the TV's tone mapping.
But no matter what you do the TV's tonemapping will always work! (since you can't turn it off)
That's the point you guys (not just you) don't want to understand :)
That's why I use passthrough: because I don't see the point of doing something that can't be:
- repeated
- verified
- etc.

And the same applies to following the "right" EOTF curve, again, I don't see the point of talking about it, until our (literally) precious displays:
"have at least 3 types of ABL: ASBL, ABL (can't be turned off) and ANSD (can't be turned off)"
What's the point of talking about theory while in reality no one knows how these bloody displays behave :D

If we had a perfect display ... but we don't, far from it :)

[SamuriHL]

I never said you could "turn it off". What I said was that if you tone map to 700 nits and send the proper metadata with it, it SHOULDN'T trip the TV's tone mapping because it's already under the max nit level that the TV can display. That's not even close to the same thing as turning it off. I'd really like to see what Manni's HD Fury shows about the metadata that's being sent. I'm with Warner on this...if it's not changing the metadata, then it's highly broken. But since so few of us use it with HDR output, I'd not really be surprised to find out that's the case. I don't have any way of measuring it so I've no idea one way or the other.

[chros]

I never said you could "turn it off". What I said was that if you tone map to 700 nits and send the proper metadata with it, it SHOULDN'T trip the TV's tone mapping because it's already under the max nit level that the TV can display. That's not even close to the same thing as turning it off.
:) I know what you meant, but it's only a theory.
If you can't reproduce/test something in a reliable way then the "shouldn't" part stay as "shouldn't" but we will never know :)
Not to mention, if you turn on DTM (that you also did/do, not just me) then it will definitely touch everything :)

[SamuriHL]

Yes, Dynamic tone mapping very likely touches everything regardless of what the metadata says given how it works. madshi's hope for that was that it would measure the frame and minimally screw around with it if at all. However, I have noticed the changes in the SDR range before and thought those were "normal". They aren't (and I suppose it comes down to preference of whether you care that the SDR range is being messed with or not). A few days ago when we started this discussion I turned Dynamic tone mapping off and did some spot checking on a few of my favorite scenes and can definitely see the difference. That being said, if the metadata really isn't being sent as modified based on what you specify for max target nit (and especially if you're using a measurement file since that would be a more accurate representation of each frame than the real time algorithm) then it defeats the purpose of tone mapping with madvr pixel shader using HDR output and would be considered a bug. I don't have any way of measuring it, and it's only fairly recently that we even had drivers that weren't broken and sending 1000 nits. Hence why I'd like to see if Manni or someone else with the right equipment can verify what it's doing. Yes, I agree, that still doesn't mean we know what the TV is doing with its tone mapping, but, I'd say that if we can tone map to 700 nits and send the modified metadata that gives us the best chance at not doing double processing. Not guaranteed, I get it.

[Warner306]

Amazing find, @jk82, as always! I'll take a look at my B8 (maybe during the weekend).


But no matter what you do the TV's tonemapping will always work! (since you can't turn it off)

If you look at j82k's graphs, the C8 does appear to disable the display's tone mapping when 1,000 nit metadata is sent. The display follows the original EOTF curve all the way to the display peak and clips. That is considered a PQ EOTF response without any tone curve up to 800 nits. At least that is the case with the picture preset he had selected.

His second graph shows a very late roll-off at 700 nits. I don't think you can control the shape of the display's roll-off; that is likely fixed. But you can change where the roll-off point starts by manipulating the contrast and/or brightness of the display panel with the contrast and grayscale controls. I noticed he customized the EOTF a bit by moving reference white down a few nits.


And the same applies to following the "right" EOTF curve, again, I don't see the point of talking about it, until our (literally) precious displays:
"have at least 3 types of ABL: ASBL, ABL (can't be turned off) and ANSD (can't be turned off)"
What's the point of talking about theory while in reality no one knows how these bloody displays behave :D

If we had a perfect display ... but we don't, far from it :)

There is no standard for tone mapping, but almost all current HDR displays start the roll-off point at some point after 100 nits. More than 90% of an HDR image is within this range, as proven by numerous measurement files produced by madMeasureHDR.

I honestly think Panasonic is the best at this. Both its OLEDs and HDR Optimiser in its Blu-ray players do a good job of tone mapping the specular highlights alone without impacting the overall APL of the image.

The typical Panasonic tone curve for 4,000 nits+ sources looks similar to this:

http://upload.vstanced.com/images/2019/06/11/c64b7d16d0102875afa91a5a038f0808.png

The roll-off appears to start at around 200 nits and peaks at just under 700 nits.

As I said before, BT.2390 also recommends limiting tone mapping of HDR10 content to the specular highlights alone if the display has at least 500 nits of peak brightness. This is not best practice, but it is becoming closer to a consensus with display manufacturers and calibrators. Most people don't seem to notice clipped highlights as much as a loss of HDR brightness.

[Warner306]

One way to test if HDR to HDR is working correctly is to use a 1,000 nits source and set the real display peak nits in madVR to 1,000 nits. This should send the source through without any tone mapping as if it was a standard 1,000 nits source, save any scenes that may peak above 1,000 nits.

Then find a scene that is somewhere between 800-1,000 nits and see if there is any difference between straight passthrough and pixel shaders with HDR output checked. The brightness of the image should be identical in both cases because madVR should be reporting 1,000 nits to the display and not doing any tone mapping because the display is assumed to already be the same brightness as the source video. You could even create two profile groups and assign them keyboard shortcuts to quickly switch between the two.

Otherwise, you need to use some good test scenes with bright specular highlights and play these scenes in slow motion with MPC. Or use a camera with a high dynamic range and take some screenshots of the same frame (Ctrl + G in MPC). The screenshots would be even more useful to show any differences. Pixel shaders with HDR output should show a smoother transition into the highlights with less clipping compared to the LG's static tone curve without lowering the APL of the SDR range.

The dream sequence in Batman v Superman is good for this. There are bolts of electricity that usually clip with most displays and Ben Affleck's white shirt will lose all detail if any clipping is happening. If the display applies heavy tone mapping to the SDR range, Ben Affleck's face will appear more tanned. Max Max Fury Road also has some good test scenes involving fire, explosions and some lightning bolts that reach 10,000 nits.

The only example that I know of that explains how external tone mapping for HDR TVs works is the HDR Optimiser from the Panasonic UB9000/UB820 Blu-ray players. If you watch this video, you'll notice that the sending the correct metadata is critical to its usefulness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTw_Toh0PzA

The first two examples use 4,000 nits sources where the original display curve is either tone mapping the SDR range too much and unnecessarily dimming the APL and/or not tone mapping enough and clipping the highlights. The Optimiser compresses the source to 1,000 nits, not allowing the display to select its 4,000 nits tone curve, and it does a better job of preserving the specular highlights with the correct hue without tone mapping the SDR range. The curve used by the HDR Optimiser is very similar to the one I posted in the last post and starts above 100 nits.

[j82k]

I'm currently not using a test build, probably should have tried one but as far as I know most of the work done in all the test builds have been about 'HDR to SDR' and not 'HDR passthrough' tone mapping. Actually I wanted to let the whole tone mapping thing rest and just use regular passthrough until a new final version of madVR releases.

Through the adjustment points check method on the C8 you can tell if the TV receives 4000 nits MDL metadata (second last adjustment point 713) or lower metadata (second last adjustment point 696).
What I can't know is what maxCLL madVR is sending so it might or might not modify that. I guess unless someone tests this with a device like the HD Fury we won't really know.


One other thing that might affect the tone mapping is that the points at which the C8 clips when using colors is different from white. I think red is the worst where it clips at like 540 or so...
I didn't measure this, only checked this on clipping test pattern.

[SamuriHL]

Ummm, that would explain why you don't have the expected results. A TON of work has happened in HDR tone mapping in madvr and it's a fallacy to say it's "been about HDR to SDR". The latest test builds have changed a LOT in the HDR tone mapping functionality in madvr compared to the latest release build. Using passthrough is going to do exactly that, pass it through. Using the HDR tone mapping with HDR output checked, however, is going to use madvr's tone mapping solution. You may want to try it and see what you think.

[j82k]

When I said 'passthrough tone mapping' that is actually what I meant, using tone map with the 'output video in HDR format' box checked.

So which test build do you recommend? I know some of them have a ton of new options added for the purpose of testing and I don't want it to be too complicated.
Also, since you own a C8 and you're using test builds why don't you just try this yourself? Play a 4000 nit movie and see what the second last white WB adjustment point is. Then do the same with a 1000 nit movie.

[SamuriHL]

That's not passthrough. That's VERY VERY VERY confusing terminology to use. Call it HDR tone mapping with HDR output please. :)

The very latest test build is what I've been using and I like it. I use measurement files which means I ignore most of the new test options for the live algo. The only things I care about are setting the max target nit, highlight recovery strength, the fire option (it's a preference), and that's about it. And yea I can maybe try it out this weekend if I have time. Work is keeping me busy this week so not much time for testing a whole lot at the moment. I'd have to figure out which of my movies are 4000 nits and which are 1000. I guess I could run my measurement reading tool to figure that out.

[j82k]

Ok I got this to work now, madVR does change the metadata, even with the latest non-test build. Sorry for the confusion.

My problem was that for the metadata change to take affect, the TV needs to be kicked out of HDR mode first. Just hitting stop and play in MPC-HC isn't enough. You need to close the player or re-drag the file into it which causes the HDR logo to pop-up again on the TV.

Unfortunately this means that you can't directly compare passthrough and madVR HDR tone mapping by just switching back and forth between them as one of them will then use the wrong metadata. HDR needs to be retriggered each time for the metadata change to happen (HDR logo popping up on the TV).

[SamuriHL]

No worries. I'm glad it's straightened out!

Oh that's weird. For me with JRiver MC stopping playback and restarting it with play does exactly that, retriggering HDR. That's very strange that it doesn't work with MPC-HC.

[SamuriHL]

Ok, maybe I'm being a moron here, but, when playing an HDR movie, how do I see the WB that's being sent? God this HDR stuff confuses me at times.

[j82k]

expert controls - white balance - method: 20 points - code value

There are 20 adjustment points and the second last one changes depending on what metadata the TV receives. A different value here means that the TV uses a different tone mapping curve.

Here's some values I've found so far while playing Godzilla King of Monsters (4000 nits MDL).
Second last adjustment point value:

passthrough: 713
madVR set to 4000: 713
madVR set to 1000: 696
madVR set to 700: 669

So the TV apparently uses yet another tone mapping curve when receiving 700 nits metadata or rather no tone mapping because it can display 700 nits?
I previously assumed it would be just the same curve as my measured 1000 nits metadata one where the roll-off was almost like clipping already.


About the way HDR is triggered, I think something changed with one of the recent nvidia drivers. When I close the player the TV just stays in HDR mode until I click on the desktop or move some window around. I'm pretty sure it hasn't always been like that and would immediately be kicked out of HDR when closing MPC-HC.

[QBhd]

Okay so I have done some testing just now with the latest madVR release (not the HDR betas)… and I have some interesting results with my ancient R9 270X and LG C8

So to set this up I have a 4000 nits movie and a TV show that was 1561 (not 1000, but close enough I think). I ran both with my settings:
HDR tone mapping settings (http://prntscr.com/ovbwof)

So here is my results:

4000 nits HDR tone mapping using code value 696 (http://prntscr.com/ovbyl6)

1561 nits HDR tone mapping using code value 696 (http://prntscr.com/ovbz6a)

Now the interesting thing that happened when I switched to "passthrough HDR to display" was... nothing happened, it used the same code values as above. So I thought maybe I need to un-check "send HDR metadata to the display"... but all that did was keep the display in SDR (I'm guessing it's due to my old GPU).

Furthermore, I am able to play both files over my network using the built in player of the TV and here are the codes values used:

1561 nits using code value 696 (http://prntscr.com/ovc37d)

4000 nits using code value 713 (http://prntscr.com/ovc3nu)

Just some info to share

QB

[SamuriHL]

expert controls - white balance - method: 20 points - code value

There are 20 adjustment points and the second last one changes depending on what metadata the TV receives. A different value here means that the TV uses a different tone mapping curve.

Here's some values I've found so far while playing Godzilla King of Monsters (4000 nits MDL).
Second last adjustment point value:

passthrough: 713
madVR set to 4000: 713
madVR set to 1000: 696
madVR set to 700: 669

So the TV apparently uses yet another tone mapping curve when receiving 700 nits metadata or rather no tone mapping because it can display 700 nits?
I previously assumed it would be just the same curve as my measured 1000 nits metadata one where the roll-off was almost like clipping already.


About the way HDR is triggered, I think something changed with one of the recent nvidia drivers. When I close the player the TV just stays in HDR mode until I click on the desktop or move some window around. I'm pretty sure it hasn't always been like that and would immediately be kicked out of HDR when closing MPC-HC.

Thank you for this. Much appreciated! I'll have to do some testing, as well. I have an advantage I think because I can throw the disc in my UB820, which as we know on the OLED setting tends to tone map ~1000 nits, and switch between my HTPC and the UB820 to compare. Not an exact comparison, I'll grant you, but, it will be an interesting test anyway. I should have time to play around with this friday night or saturday. I'm very curious now.

[Warner306]

Ok I got this to work now, madVR does change the metadata, even with the latest non-test build. Sorry for the confusion.

My problem was that for the metadata change to take affect, the TV needs to be kicked out of HDR mode first. Just hitting stop and play in MPC-HC isn't enough. You need to close the player or re-drag the file into it which causes the HDR logo to pop-up again on the TV.

Unfortunately this means that you can't directly compare passthrough and madVR HDR tone mapping by just switching back and forth between them as one of them will then use the wrong metadata. HDR needs to be retriggered each time for the metadata change to happen (HDR logo popping up on the TV).

Good that you got it sorted. For some reason QBhd's results aren't matching.

[SamuriHL]

Good that you got it sorted. For some reason QBhd's results aren't matching.

They won't. They're using the latest release build of madvr which has had ALL KINDS of fixes in the betas. So the fact that it doesn't match doesn't surprise me now that j82k is using the latest beta.

[j82k]

I don't have a clue about AMD cards. Do they maybe have similar metadata problems as nvidia had in the past? 696 was the number one would always get with the 1000 nits bogus metadata or windows HDR.

I wasn't using the test builds and still got it to work.

edit:
I can set the target peak nits up to 760 in madVR while keeping the "669" value, at 770 target peak it switches to "696". So 760 target peak nits might be a good value to use for people whose C8 can reach that as I assume that is the point up to where the TV will do no or the least amount of tone mapping.

The fastest way to make the metadata change happen is to disable/enable 'output video in HDR format', so no need to restart the player like I did earlier.

[SamuriHL]

AMD cards use the windows hdr which probably does still send fake metadata at 1000.

That's awesome about the max target nit. I can't wait to play this weekend!

Also I really want to thank you for all this awesome information!! This has been a great learning experience for me and I truly appreciate it!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[quietvoid]

I have also been testing madVR (latest beta) on my LG C8 and obtain similar results.
With dynamic target nits, using 10 000 nits as a maximal target causes clipping when the target peak nits are automatically set to 1000+.

I've ended up using 750 peak and maximal target nits to avoid clipping.
Even using 800 as maximal target has some clipping.

[huhn]

afaik AMD uses AGS for HDR and not the OS else there would be no need to add this API in madVR if the OS HDR is used anyway.

[SamuriHL]

Hmm I could have sworn there was a discussion about the fact that HDR mode on nvidia had a slight advantage over amd due to the nvidia HDR api vs amd using the windows os HDR. I readily admit I could be 100% wrong though.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

There is no standard for tone mapping, but almost all current HDR displays start the roll-off point at some point...
Yes, thanks, but do you understand that I've talked about ABL algos?

So 760 target peak nits might be a good value to use for people whose C8 can reach that
In what window size? 2/5/10/20% ... ?

[j82k]

In what window size? 2/5/10/20% ... ?

I guess that is up to you what window size to use and if you want to account for some ABL by using a larger one or not. I haven't given this much thought and usually use a 5-8% window when measuring peak brightness. I think the way ABL works is that it just evenly dims the whole picture so it shouldn't cause any clipping in highlight but I'm really not sure on this.

[j82k]

I just went back to the good and old 385.28 nvidia driver and guess what....

Metadata changes happen instantly now! I can change madVR's "HDR target peak nits" value and see the C8s second last WB value change immediatley while the movie is playing. So the metadata change happens on the fly without me having to disable/enable HDR.

This is also how I remembered things and is the reason why I was confused and thought madVR didn't change the metadata. Again just an Nvidia driver problem...

I think all the newer Nvidia drivers behave like this, meaning metadata change requires retriggering of the HDR signal whereas with 385.28 it just happens on the fly...

[SamuriHL]

Fascinating. But not entirely surprising.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

expert controls - white balance - method: 20 points - code value

There are 20 adjustment points and the second last one changes depending on what metadata the TV receives. A different value here means that the TV uses a different tone mapping curve.

Here's some values I've found so far while playing Godzilla King of Monsters (4000 nits MDL).
Second last adjustment point value:

passthrough: 713
madVR set to 4000: 713
madVR set to 1000: 696
madVR set to 700: 669



I wanted to come back to this. I SOOOOO appreciate this. I have confirmed exactly what you're seeing. madvr up to 760 is using 669, above that 696, and then 713. I used Aquaman to test 4000 nits and A Wrinkle In Time to test 1000 nits and the results were consistent. To be clear to those who may be looking at this information later down the road, this is with dynamic tone mapping on the C8 turned OFF. I am EXTREMELY pleased with the results we're getting. I've yet to watch a whole movie with these settings but the quick tests I've done so far look outstanding. I do want to compare with the UB820 this weekend when I get some time and just take a look at the same movies. To make it a "fair" comparison, I'll probably set madvr target nits to 1000 cause that's what the UB820 uses for OLED tone mapping. Nonetheless, this is great info and really helps us a lot.

[chros]

I think all the newer Nvidia drivers behave like this, meaning metadata change requires retriggering of the HDR signal whereas with 385.28 it just happens on the fly...
:D I wanted to tell you this, but I didn't know what GPU you have. Which one?
And indeed, everything applies immediately.

@Manni: a huge thanks to you for your endless driver testing and finding the one (!) that is the best for Pascal cards!!!

I can set the target peak nits up to 760 in madVR while keeping the "669" value, at 770 target peak it switches to "696". So 760 target peak nits might be a good value to use for people whose C8 can reach that as I assume that is the point up to where the TV will do no or the least amount of tone mapping.

Here's some values I've found so far while playing Godzilla King of Monsters (4000 nits MDL).
Second last adjustment point value:

passthrough: 713
madVR set to 4000: 713
madVR set to 1000: 696
madVR set to 700: 669

So the TV apparently uses yet another tone mapping curve when receiving 700 nits metadata or rather no tone mapping because it can display 700 nits?

So, here are the second last code values on B8 (DTM off in B8, tested with 4000 and 1000 nits content, madvr latest stable release version):
705 : passthrough 4000
705 : pixelshader 2501 - 10000
692 : passthrough 1000
692 : pixelshader 761 - 2500
669 : pixelshader 100 - 760

So, what does it mean exactly?
- there are slightly different code values on B8 (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b8-oled#comparison_140) and C8 (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8-oled#comparison_140) (I assume due to the max brightness difference)
- the same 760 nits value can be applied in B8 as well!!! (the above mentioned brightness difference doesn't matter)
- I checked and 760 nits value looks the best (vs 500 / 2000 / etc.), I haven't compared to passthrough yet

[ashlar42]

This is curious, as I initially understood things as you described them here to be. But then I read different opinions.
Is it possible to completely disable LG's tone mapping, if madVR does all the work already? In the case of preanalyzed files, it should do that on a frame by frame level, which makes me think it should provide the best results. Better probably than what Dolby Vision can achieve (if that works on a scene by scene basis, as I remember).At the beginning of the month I asked this but was told it couldn’t be done. Am I right in understanding that it’s more or less what you’ve been discussing in the past few pages? Using madVR for tone mapping in order to avoid LG’s built in functionality?

Also, on a different subject, does using Smooth Motion in madVR improve 24fps material playback with regard to motion resolution? Theoretically the frames updating on the screen would be 120 and not 24, which should make things better for a sample and hold display. And with 120 frames to work with, blurring should be minimal, right?

[QBhd]

That might be true if you could do 120 hz... And even then I doubt blending would happen.

QB

[SamuriHL]

At the beginning of the month I asked this but was told it couldn’t be done. Am I right in understanding that it’s more or less what you’ve been discussing in the past few pages? Using madVR for tone mapping in order to avoid LG’s built in functionality?



That's what we've been discussing, yes, but I want to be clear here. There's no way to disable the tone mapping built in to the lg tv. That being said by sending the tv metadata that uses the max target nit that the tv can display it seems to be avoiding triggering the more aggressive tone mapping curves of the built in tone mapping. This is about the best situation we can hope for. And it looks really good.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[j82k]

Found another really strange behavior of the C8 using the HDR color clipping test pattern from here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11iYlTaULc_MUV2YL50DUewbFsSXY1r8p

There is a big difference of clipping points with certain colors depending on the color format output.
It's especially noticeable with red and green. I used passthrough HDR and levels were of course set correctly.


Red:
RGB full/limited - clips at ~590
YCbCr 444/422 - clips at ~820

Green:
RGB full/limited - clips at ~780
YCbCr 444/422 - clips at ~590

With other colors the difference wasn't that big but what's really strange is that red clips much earlier with RGB output but with green it's the opposite, it clips much earlier with YCbCr. These big differences can't be minor color conversion rounding errors right? Anyone able to confirm or explain this?? :confused:


:D I wanted to tell you this, but I didn't know what GPU you have. Which one?
And indeed, everything applies immediately.

I have a 1050ti.


So, here are the second last code values on B8 (DTM off in B8, tested with 4000 and 1000 nits content, madvr latest stable release version):
705 : passthrough 4000
705 : pixelshader 2501 - 10000
692 : passthrough 1000
692 : pixelshader 761 - 2500
669 : pixelshader 100 - 760

So, what does it mean exactly?
- there are slightly different code values on B8 (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b8-oled#comparison_140) and C8 (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8-oled#comparison_140) (I assume due to the max brightness difference)
- the same 760 nits value can be applied in B8 as well!!! (the above mentioned brightness difference doesn't matter)
- I checked and 760 nits value looks the best (vs 500 / 2000 / etc.), I haven't compared to passthrough yet

I wouldn't rely on rtings peak measurements. When you look at their C7 burn-in test there are peak differences of more than 100 nits between the 6 TVs even though they're all the same model. Panel variance I guess.

I assumed a different WB value shown means that the TV uses a different tone mapping curve but I could be wrong. Looking at HDR white clipping pattern I can't detect a change when going from 760 to 761 in madVR even though that causes the TV to show a different WB value.

[chros]

That's what we've been discussing, yes, but I want to be clear here. There's no way to disable the tone mapping built in to the lg tv. That being said by sending the tv metadata that uses the max target nit that the tv can display it seems to be avoiding triggering the more aggressive tone mapping curves of the built in tone mapping.
That's correct. As we saw above, there are 3 tone curves implemented in 8 series (just like the 3 modifiable ones in 9 series). And by setting 760 nits in madvr the less aggressive is used but what it means in reality is another question. :) Not to mention the tons of options that can be changed in madVRhdrMeasure86 :)

I'll upload some selected clips later for those who wants to compare the result with pure passthrough (+ DTM).

[ashlar42]

That might be true if you could do 120 hz... And even then I doubt blending would happen.Well, clearly we need to wait for HDMI 2.1 videocards but I don't understand why you say blending wouldn't happen. There is the "always" option for smooth motion, isn't there?

[QBhd]

24x5=120... So nothing to blend... As far as I understand smoothmotion

QB

[chros]

24x5=120... So nothing to blend... As far as I understand smoothmotion
It depends on the refresh rate of the TV you use:
- in your example: 23p -> you're right
- but the guys are experimenting in 60p (!) -> blending

There is a big difference of clipping points with certain colors depending on the color format output.
It's especially noticeable with red and green. I used passthrough HDR and levels were of course set correctly.
...
With other colors the difference wasn't that big but what's really strange is that red clips much earlier with RGB output but with green it's the opposite, it clips much earlier with YCbCr. These big differences can't be minor color conversion rounding errors right? Anyone able to confirm or explain this?? :confused:
Sorry, but I don't understand the test case: you mentioned passthrough as well. So, does it only happen with madvr's pixeslhader?

I wouldn't rely on rtings peak measurements. When you look at their C7 burn-in test there are peak differences of more than 100 nits between the 6 TVs even though they're all the same model. Panel variance I guess.
Good point, I guess I have to dig out my meter during the weekend. :)

I assumed a different WB value shown means that the TV uses a different tone mapping curve but I could be wrong. Looking at HDR white clipping pattern I can't detect a change when going from 760 to 761 in madVR even though that causes the TV to show a different WB value.
I'm pretty sure you are right. There are 3 different tone curves implemented in 8 series and the one that belongs to 100-760 nits in madvr is the less aggressive.
I also can't notice the difference between 760 and 761 (maybe with the test clips below).

[j82k]

Sorry, but I don't understand the test case: you mentioned passthrough as well. So, does it only happen with madvr's pixeslhader?


I'm saying that there is a pretty big difference with saturated colors depending on the color format you send to the TV (RGB or YCbCr) and I don't understand why and I don't know which one is correct.

This is with regular HDR passthrough, so no madVR tone mapping involved...

[chros]

The purpose of this test to compare HDR passthrough (with and without LG's DTM) to madvr's tonemapping with "Output video in HDR format".

Prerequisities:
- use "Cinema" preset (not Cinema Home) for HDR10 content on the TV
-- if this preset isn't calibrated then reset it and turn off every unnecessary processing
- download the test video files (~5.6 GB) from mega.nz (https://mega.nz/#F!n5dzgQbJ!A99MVeafyffB1qK6-ahrTg)
-- there are 10 files all together: 2 files in 4 categories (below 760 / 1000 / 4000 / 10000 nits) and 2 others
- download madVRhdrMeasure86 (http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure86.zip) and use the settings attached to this post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-204.html#post58458354)
-- create "ShowHdrMode" empty directory in madvr directory (to display more HDR related stats in OSD)
-- it's based on Neo-XP's quoted values (note he uses an OLED that doesn't have HDR)
-- "highlight recovery strength" is set to very high (are you nuts setting produce artifacts sometimes)
-- "apply dynamic clipping" is turned on and only set to 25! (above it clips lot of things and confuses scene detection)
-- "no compression limit" 100 supposed to mean that madvr doesn't touch content in 0-100 nits
-- "dynamic tuning" 50 results in more vivid image (compared to default 75)
-- I'm not sure about "maximal target nits" value
-- and I don't know anything about the tons of option at the bottom :)

Testing:
- compare every clip in:
-- passthrough without LG's DTM
-- pixeshader without LG's DTM
-- passthrough with LG's DTM
- look out for:
-- madvr's tonemapping values in OSD
-- quality of the image
-- potential sharpness differences
- the 2 clips below 760 nits are interesting: take a look how madvr behaves

Happy testing!

[Asmodian]

24x5=120... So nothing to blend... As far as I understand smoothmotion

Smooth motion does not work that way. When enabled it always blends to perfectly match the refresh rate, it does not delay the first frame presentation for a screen update. It always does a weighted blend perfectly timed to the screen refresh. The three options are used to control this behavior but if says enabled in the OSD it is always blending.

Also, on a different subject, does using Smooth Motion in madVR improve 24fps material playback with regard to motion resolution? Theoretically the frames updating on the screen would be 120 and not 24, which should make things better for a sample and hold display. And with 120 frames to work with, blurring should be minimal, right?

I do like smooth motion for 24 fps on OLEDs, the very quick sample and hold looks better with the blends between frames. Especially for content without motion blur, like Anime. This is at only 60 Hz too, at 120 Hz I just use smooth motion all the time.

This does not help motion resolution at all, smooth motion can only make motion resolution worse. As a technology smooth motion trades some motion resolution for smoothness, but at 120 Hz the loss in motion resolution is negligible (the increase in smoothness is less significant as well).

[chros]

This is with regular HDR passthrough, so no madVR tone mapping involved...
This was the part that wasn't clear, thanks, I'll check it during the weekend as well.

[SamuriHL]

I'm saying that there is a pretty big difference with saturated colors depending on the color format you send to the TV (RGB or YCbCr) and I don't understand why and I don't know which one is correct.

This is with regular HDR passthrough, so no madVR tone mapping involved...

I've noticed this before, as well, and I don't know what is going on there. The color format should NOT make a difference. I never knew how to measure it before now, but, it was quite clear in the picture that it's different when switching between them. HTPC users are going to say RGB is correct. However, most consumer equipment is going to drive the signal with YCbCr so, I don't know what's "correct" in this case. It's very strange though. I should check the UB820 in RGB mode and see if it does the same thing to rule out other potential causes of the issue.

[j82k]

I should check the UB820 in RGB mode and see if it does the same thing to rule out other potential causes of the issue.

Can the UB820 output both? RGB and YCbCr?

It would be interesting if it produces the same difference between RGB and YCbCr as a pc does. Just make sure to turn every tone mapping or picture enhancements off.

Try it especially with the red pattern from here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11iYlTaULc_MUV2YL50DUewbFsSXY1r8p

[Warner306]

Found another really strange behavior of the C8 using the HDR color clipping test pattern from here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11iYlTaULc_MUV2YL50DUewbFsSXY1r8p

There is a big difference of clipping points with certain colors depending on the color format output.
It's especially noticeable with red and green. I used passthrough HDR and levels were of course set correctly.


Red:
RGB full/limited - clips at ~590
YCbCr 444/422 - clips at ~820

Green:
RGB full/limited - clips at ~780
YCbCr 444/422 - clips at ~590

With other colors the difference wasn't that big but what's really strange is that red clips much earlier with RGB output but with green it's the opposite, it clips much earlier with YCbCr. These big differences can't be minor color conversion rounding errors right? Anyone able to confirm or explain this?? :confused:

YCbCr and RGB are different color spaces of different sizes. I don't think that explains a large difference in color clipping, though. YCbCr converted to RGB is slightly larger than PC RGB converted to display RGB.

RGB untouched by madVR and presented in PC mode should be the most accurate rendition without having to account for any errors by the GPU conversion to YCbCr or the display using the wrong color matrix for RGB to YCbCr 4:2:2 to RGB.

[Warner306]

That's correct. As we saw above, there are 3 tone curves implemented in 8 series (just like the 3 modifiable ones in 9 series). And by setting 760 nits in madvr the less aggressive is used but what it means in reality is another question. :) Not to mention the tons of options that can be changed in madVRhdrMeasure86 :)

I'll upload some selected clips later for those who wants to compare the result with pure passthrough (+ DTM).

It might be worth asking for the original BT.2390 tone curve as an option for HDR output. Someone stated in the madVR thread that the version of BT.2390 tone curve used by madVR is the same one used by DisplayCal with a modified curve shape at the top end. This retains more specular highlight detail but leaves less luminance for the highlights compared to the original BT.2390 curve. I think the version used by madVR was picked because it works well for HDR to SDR tone mapping.

This could just be hearsay, but the poster is knowledgeable about DisplayCal curves.

[Warner306]

The purpose of this test to compare HDR passthrough (with and without LG's DTM) to madvr's tonemapping with "Output video in HDR format".

Prerequisities:
- download the test video files (~5.6 GB) from mega.nz (https://mega.nz/#F!n5dzgQbJ!A99MVeafyffB1qK6-ahrTg)
-- there are 8 files all together: 2 files in 4 categories (below 760 / 1000 / 4000 / 10000 nits)
- download madVRhdrMeasure86 (http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure86.zip) and use the settings attached to this post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-204.html#post58458354)
-- it's based on Neo-XP's quoted values (note he uses an OLED that doesn't have HDR)
-- "highlight recovery strength" is none on purpose (Neo-XP suggested it)
-- "apply dynamic clipping" is turned on and only set to 25! (above it clips lot of things and confuses scene detection)
-- "no compression limit" 100 supposed to mean that madvr doesn't touch content in 0-100 nits
-- "dynamic tuning" 50 results in more vivid image (compared to default 75)
-- I'm not sure about "maximal target nits" value
-- and I don't know anything about the tons of option at the bottom :)

Testing:
- compare every clip in:
-- passthrough without LG's DTM
-- pixeshader without LG's DTM
-- passthrough with LG's DTM
- look out for:
-- madvr's tonemapping values in OSD
-- quality of the image
-- potential sharpness differences
- the 2 clips below 760 nits are interesting: take a look how madvr behaves

Happy testing!

Some of NEO-XPs values would only apply to HDR to SDR tone mapping.

[SamuriHL]

Can the UB820 output both? RGB and YCbCr?

It would be interesting if it produces the same difference between RGB and YCbCr as a pc does. Just make sure to turn every tone mapping or picture enhancements off.

Try it especially with the red pattern from here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11iYlTaULc_MUV2YL50DUewbFsSXY1r8p

It can indeed. That thing is a beast. :D I'll see if I can get to that this weekend when I have more time to play around.

[SamuriHL]

It might be worth asking for the original BT.2390 tone curve as an option for HDR output. Someone stated in the madVR thread that the version of BT.2390 tone curve used by madVR is the same one used by DisplayCal with a modified curve shape at the top end. This retains more specular highlight detail but leaves less luminance for the highlights compared to the original BT.2390 curve. I think the version used by madVR was picked because it works well for HDR to SDR tone mapping.

This could just be hearsay, but the poster is knowledgeable about DisplayCal curves.

I think that's why they worked on the Highlight strength recovery option because you do indeed lose a bit of luminance with madvr's tone mapping. I crank that option to Are you nuts? for that very reason.

[SamuriHL]

Some of NEO-XPs values would only apply to HDR to SDR tone mapping.

And a lot of them are only going to apply to the live algorithm, as well. I tend to not use the live algo myself and instead prefer to create measurement files. The improvemenets in the live algo have been remarkable, but, you are exactly right in that they seem to be more targeted to HDR->SDR. That's not to say you COULDN'T use them with HDR output, I suppose.

[j82k]

RGB untouched by madVR and presented in PC mode should be the most accurate rendition without having to account for any errors by the GPU conversion to YCbCr or the display using the wrong color matrix for RGB to YCbCr 4:2:2 to RGB.

Should yes, but this is an LG TV. :rolleyes:

RGB + PC mode + HDR is like the worst combination and produces terrible banding on the C8. :mad:

[quietvoid]

The purpose of this test to compare HDR passthrough (with and without LG's DTM) to madvr's tonemapping with "Output video in HDR format".

Prerequisities:
- download the test video files (~5.6 GB) from mega.nz (https://mega.nz/#F!n5dzgQbJ!A99MVeafyffB1qK6-ahrTg)
-- there are 8 files all together: 2 files in 4 categories (below 760 / 1000 / 4000 / 10000 nits)
- download madVRhdrMeasure86 (http://madshi.net/madVRhdrMeasure86.zip) and use the settings attached to this post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-204.html#post58458354)
-- it's based on Neo-XP's quoted values (note he uses an OLED that doesn't have HDR)
-- "highlight recovery strength" is none on purpose (Neo-XP suggested it)
-- "apply dynamic clipping" is turned on and only set to 25! (above it clips lot of things and confuses scene detection)
-- "no compression limit" 100 supposed to mean that madvr doesn't touch content in 0-100 nits
-- "dynamic tuning" 50 results in more vivid image (compared to default 75)
-- I'm not sure about "maximal target nits" value
-- and I don't know anything about the tons of option at the bottom :)

Testing:
- compare every clip in:
-- passthrough without LG's DTM
-- pixeshader without LG's DTM
-- passthrough with LG's DTM
- look out for:
-- madvr's tonemapping values in OSD
-- quality of the image
-- potential sharpness differences
- the 2 clips below 760 nits are interesting: take a look how madvr behaves

Happy testing!

I've tested with the clips and got to the same conclusions, have an LG C8.
Changing "dynamic tuning" has no effect for me.

With target nits at 760, passthrough looks the same as pixel shaders for clips that are around 1000 nits.
In the John Wick clip, the lights on the ambulance get a bit brighter using passthrough and LG DTM but no highlight detail loss.

For the 'The Meg' clip, there's clipping with both passthrough and pixel shaders (LG DTM on/off as well) with your settings.
Had posted about this here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1882574#post1882574

Can be fixed with "maximal target nits" at 760. With that, there's more highlight detail resolved with LG DTM ON.

In Max Max: Fury Road, using passthrough causes specular highlights to become grey (reflection on the car) while pixel shaders keep it white.
That's about it, there's not much difference on that one.

About LG's DTM, overall it seems to be better to keep highlight detail but in lower brightness scenes, it acts like madVR's "apply dynamic clipping" and makes midtones brighter.

However for some reason my WB 20 points show 669 and 1023 all the time so something might be wrong on my side.
Sometimes it's at 713, and everything looks fine when sending 2000 nits to the display instead of clipping though.
Edit:
Yep, with passthrough I can get it to switch to 713 when resending metadata.
With pixel shaders, it doesn't seem to switch at all with the dynamic target nits.
Sadly going back to 385.28 did not fix it, still sticks to 669 even though madVR tonemaps to 2000 nits.

[chros]

RGB untouched by madVR and presented in PC mode should be the most accurate

Should yes, but this is an LG TV. :rolleyes:
@jk82 is right, LG does some crazy things, e.g. there's no proper chroma 4:4:4 in PC mode at 4k resolution (and this is just 1 example). It seems it's more important for them to work on ABL algos than picture quality :devil:

RGB + PC mode + HDR is like the worst combination and produces terrible banding on the C8. :mad:
Yes, but that's what I am using :)

I think that's why they worked on the Highlight strength recovery option because you do indeed lose a bit of luminance with madvr's tone mapping. I crank that option to Are you nuts? for that very reason.
Nep_XP stated that currently it does more harm than good, since it was implemented back then when DTM wasn't in madvr yet, hence he disabled it.

Some of NEO-XPs values would only apply to HDR to SDR tone mapping.
Which ones? (But I don't think so, see below.)

I tend to not use the live algo myself and instead prefer to create measurement files. The improvemenets in the live algo have been remarkable, but, you are exactly right in that they seem to be more targeted to HDR->SDR.
:D But that's the same for measurement files as well. Only 1 guy had 200 nits screen, Neo-XP's 150 nits, Manni's 135 nits, all the others are way less (even 50 nits)!
What nits setting did you use when created your measurement files?

Not to mention that's exactly what we want to do as well - the only diff is the way higher nits setting -, the problem is we can't disable the TV's tonemapping.

But if you insist, you can quickly create measurement files for the uploaded clips as well. But in that case post a screenshot of your settings, please.

This retains more specular highlight detail but leaves less luminance for the highlights compared to the original BT.2390 curve. I think the version used by madVR was picked because it works well for HDR to SDR tone mapping.
Well, I don't think it's worth it, there's only minimal difference between passthrough and pixelshader (see below).

[chros]

Yep, with passthrough I can get it to switch to 713 when resending metadata.
With pixel shaders, it doesn't seem to switch at all with the dynamic target nits.
Sadly going back to 385.28 did not fix it, still sticks to 669 even though madVR tonemaps to 2000 nits.
Strange it works fine here, even when I switch between passthrough and pixelshader (I haven't noticed this before).
Which player do you use? I use MPC-BE / HC.

Changing "dynamic tuning" has no effect for me.
Indeed, I don't see any difference between 50 and 200 (not even in numbers in OSD), and there was a huge diff when I used madmeasure78 with SDR TV.
Maybe the bottom scene detection values, or did it get broken?

With target nits at 760, passthrough looks the same as pixel shaders for clips that are around 1000 nits.
That's what I noticed as well, if there's any difference at all.

In the John Wick clip, the lights on the ambulance get a bit brighter using passthrough and LG DTM but no highlight detail loss.
Same here.

For the 'The Meg' clip, there's clipping with both passthrough and pixel shaders (LG DTM on/off as well) with your settings.
Had posted about this here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1882574#post1882574

Can be fixed with "maximal target nits" at 760. With that, there's more highlight detail resolved with LG DTM ON.
Thanks, I'll modify the "maximal target nits" to 760, and I'll update the settings screenshot.

In Max Max: Fury Road, using passthrough causes specular highlights to become grey (reflection on the car) while pixel shaders keep it white.
That's about it, there's not much difference on that one.
Good spot! I haven't noticed it. :) And this one is a 10000 nits title.

About LG's DTM, overall it seems to be better to keep highlight detail but in lower brightness scenes, it acts like madVR's "apply dynamic clipping" and makes midtones brighter.
Does "apply dynamic clipping"? I haven't noticed it. Which clip(s) and when?
It should modify the protected 0-100 nits range.
Note that this option is broken since the beginning and madshi didn't fixed it yet, hence the lower 25 value is used. Maybe lowering it helps? 15/10?

Although I only tested 3 of them but there's not much difference between passthrough (without DTM) and pixelshader at 760 nits.

[chros]

I added to the above test requirements (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1882771#post1882771) the following:
- TV settings
- create "ShowHdrMode" empty directory in madvr directory (to display more HDR related stats in OSD)

Just checked the 2 clips (Hunger Games and Alita) that are under 760 nits with pixelshader:
- measured and tonemapped nit values are not always the same
- why? I thought if the content is below the set 760 nits then it shouldn't modify it.
- maybe because of the scene detection algo ...

[chros]

Found another really strange behavior of the C8 using the HDR color clipping test pattern from here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/11iYlTaULc_MUV2YL50DUewbFsSXY1r8p

There is a big difference of clipping points with certain colors depending on the color format output.
It's especially noticeable with red and green. I used passthrough HDR and levels were of course set correctly.


Red:
RGB full/limited - clips at ~590
YCbCr 444/422 - clips at ~820

Green:
RGB full/limited - clips at ~780
YCbCr 444/422 - clips at ~590

The result on B8 using PC mode, 12 bit output and HDR passthrough (I only compared RGB full vs YCbCr422), there's definitely a big difference between the two.


RGB full YCbCr422
white: 860 1000
red: 530 500
green: 820 710
blue: 900 530
cyan: 820 740
magenta: 780 740
yellow: 820 1000


Note: on my B8 HDR10 Cinema preset is *not* calibrated, everything is at its default setting.

[j82k]

RGB + PC mode + HDR is like the worst combination and produces terrible banding on the C8. :mad:

Yes, but that's what I am using :)


Seriously how can you tolerate that? :rolleyes:

I just tried pc-mode HDR again a few days ago. Played the UHD of Brightburn, skipped to some dark scene and it looked like some low bitrate TV broadcast. Even turning madVR's 'reduce banding artifacts" to high didn't make it any better, which makes sense as the banding wasn't in the source but was produced by the TV.

[SamuriHL]

:D But that's the same for measurement files as well. Only 1 guy had 200 nits screen, Neo-XP's 150 nits, Manni's 135 nits, all the others are way less (even 50 nits)!

What nits setting did you use when created your measurement files?



Not to mention that's exactly what we want to do as well - the only diff is the way higher nits setting -, the problem is we can't disable the TV's tonemapping.



But if you insist, you can quickly create measurement files for the uploaded clips as well. But in that case post a screenshot of your settings, please.



You are confused I'm afraid. [emoji846] Your question about what nit setting I used tells me so. You're talking about soulnights measurement modification tool. I am not. His tool is used to dynamically change the measurement file for those doing HDR to SDR. That's not what I want. I create the measurement file with madvr and do not touch it. This is very different then what the dynamic algo guys are doing. I agree with neo-xp about his settings for the dynamic algo but I've been using straight measurement files unmessed with since they were added to drive my HDR output.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

Seriously how can you tolerate that? :rolleyes:
:) I got used to it or I just favor (near) chroma 4:4:4 this much :D
You can sometimes see the banding/posterisation effect even on human skins (not just on walls/sky) but in the majority of cases I'm not bodered: it's not thaaat bad :)

But, in the beginning I created a wrong 23p custom timings with madvr (not just the back porch values (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998) were changed), it took me for about a week to realize that something was off:
it screwed up the gamma response of the TV badly, resulting in every kind weird things (heavy near black banding, darkened picture, more posterisation). That was baaad. :)

I just tried pc-mode HDR again a few days ago. Played the UHD of Brightburn, skipped to some dark scene and it looked like some low bitrate TV broadcast.
I haven't noticed anything really bad with it, probably sometimes it was there, or maybe I just got used to it.

You are confused I'm afraid. [emoji846] Your question about what nit setting I used tells me so. You're talking about soulnights measurement modification tool. I am not. His tool is used to dynamically change the measurement file for those doing HDR to SDR. That's not what I want. I create the measurement file with madvr and do not touch it. This is very different then what the dynamic algo guys are doing.

Indeed, I thought about soulnights's tool. :) In this case it's not even DTM.

[chros]

More test:

- White windows max nits (compared to rtings's B8 result (https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b8-oled#comparison_140)):
100%: 145
10%: 700-750 (increasing quickly: maybe overheating the meter or display increases brighness?)

- checked how ASND behaves on B8 (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-oled-c8-owners-and-discussion.2162797/page-428#post-27335734)

[SamuriHL]

Indeed, I thought about soulnights's tool. :) In this case it's not even DTM.

That's also not accurate to say that it's not dynamic. Madvr is using the measured data for every frame to properly tone map for the max target nit. It's not real time dynamic tone mapping but it is the most accurate because it knows ahead if time the metadata for each frame. I don't need or necessarily want what the live algo or soulnights tool are doing because I'm not trying to compress the SDR range. In fact I'm trying to keep that untouched since I have room above it for the highlights. The straight measurement file untouched does what I want.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[quietvoid]

Strange it works fine here, even when I switch between passthrough and pixelshader (I haven't noticed this before).
Which player do you use? I use MPC-BE / HC. I use MPC-BE as well, the WB 20 points just never change unless I use passthrough and check/uncheck "send HDR metadata to display".
Maybe LG ignores the peak nits, maybe madVR should be sending MaxCLL every time the nits change dynamically?

Indeed, I don't see any difference between 50 and 200 (not even in numbers in OSD), and there was a huge diff when I used madmeasure78 with SDR TV.
Maybe the bottom scene detection values, or did it get broken? Essentially I think it just tries to use higher target nits dynamically, and no difference with everything below the peak nits because LG applies its own PQ curve (and gamma, etc).
While with SDR it would also affect the overall brightness.

Does "apply dynamic clipping"? I haven't noticed it. Which clip(s) and when?
It should modify the protected 0-100 nits range.
Note that this option is broken since the beginning and madshi didn't fixed it yet, hence the lower 25 value is used. Maybe lowering it helps? 15/10? It's just something I have noticed playing back other titles, in scenes where the peak nits don't go over 300 nits, using LG's DTM increases overall brightness of everything over 100 nits it seems.
Pretty much like the current "dynamic clipping". The other one (in the madVR optimizer by Soulnight), has an extra algo to only apply on % max pixels to avoid that.
And for very bright scenes, with LG's DTM more highlight detail is resolved, but "dynamic clipping" might cause some clipping (haven't noticed any with 25, but it happens with 100).

[VBB]

:) I got used to it or I just favor (near) chroma 4:4:4 this much :D

And you're using 12-bit on top of that ;) Doesn't that make the banding even worse? It definitely does on my C7 in both normal and PC modes. If what Stacey Spears claims is right, then PC mode switches the TV into 8-bit only anyway.

I also recently tried PC mode, and while at first things appeared a bit sharper in video content, that could have very well been placebo. I sit about four feet from my 65", and I can't really tell the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 when watching something. Maybe I could in a side-by side comparison, but that's just not possible.

[Asmodian]

For most live video content that was originally 4:2:0 the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 is very minor even with madVR scaling the chroma.

This changes a lot when viewing content that was originally 4:4:4 or RGB, for that 4:2:2 on my C9 is pretty obvious and unacceptable.

[VBB]

Right, so the lack of proper 4:4:4 is not a huge deal, if all you do is watch commercial content. Still would be nice if the next generation of panels finally got past all the bandwidth and processing limitations, now that HDMI 2.1 is here. Come on LG! I wanna buy the C10!!!

[SamuriHL]

I'm not upgrading again until at LEAST the C13. LOL

[chros]

That's also not accurate to say that it's not dynamic. Madvr is using the measured data for every frame to properly tone map for the max target nit.
Thanks, yes, you are right. It was a long time ago for me ... :)

I use MPC-BE as well, the WB 20 points just never change unless I use passthrough and check/uncheck "send HDR metadata to display".
Maybe LG ignores the peak nits, maybe madVR should be sending MaxCLL every time the nits change dynamically?
Hmm. Maybe different firmware version of the TV or an AVR in the middle of the chain?

If what Stacey Spears claims is right, then PC mode switches the TV into 8-bit only anyway.
Well, there's a slight difference using "03. Grayscale\04. 10bit test" files of "Mehanik HDR10 test pattern" between 8bit and 10bit (12bit output is set in nvidia CP).
That means processing is not 8bit, but maybe like with chroma 4:4:4, it's not 10bit either :D I don't know.

And you're using 12-bit on top of that ;) Doesn't that make the banding even worse?
As I stated in this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) about PC mode:
- SDR content: there's banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is minimal between the 2)
- HDR10 content: there's heavy (!) banding in PC mode using both 8bit and 10bit input (difference is clearly visible between the 2)

Maybe I could in a side-by side comparison, but that's just not possible.
You don't have to: pause the playback and switch the label between PC and HDMI.
Before that use a higher chroma algo in madvr (e.g. NGU Sharp low at least) not just Bicubic60 :)

I also recently tried PC mode, and while at first things appeared a bit sharper in video content, that could have very well been placebo. I sit about four feet from my 65", and I can't really tell the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 when watching something.

For most live video content that was originally 4:2:0 the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 is very minor even with madVR scaling the chroma.
I *do* notice the difference during normal playback even from normal viewing distance (~3 meters).
My reasoning for using PC mode with HDR10 is this: I see banding/posterisation - let's say - 10% of the times watching regular content, but I see the effect of increased natural sharpness 90% of the times :D
And you can easily switch the label when you watch SDR or HDR10 content, if you like.
But don't get me wrong, I don't want to poison your minds with this :)

Still would be nice if the next generation of panels finally got past all the bandwidth and processing limitations, now that HDMI 2.1 is here.
Don't wait for that :D

From one of Ted's write up (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-105.html#post58372750):
"LG will convert any HDMI input RGB-Video colorspace signal to YCbCr 4:4:4 for applying initially most of the UI (user interface) adjustments.
The UI user setting will be merged in an algorithm which will interpolate values between multiple user settings to manipulate the video signal.
Looks like that there additional features of Expert Controls Menu (Dynamic Contrast, White Balance, CMS etc.) which will require more complex processing so for the TV to significantly reduce the bandwidth and the required processing power it will compress the horizontal chroma resolution in half; chroma subsampling from YCbCr 4:4:4 -> YCbCr 4:2:2; as this will reduce by 33.3% the video data bandwidth.
I believe this is the reason why these OLED TV's will not display full chroma (YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB-Video) with PC Icon enabled (of HDMI Input) from 24p/30p/50p input signal but only with 60p signal where all the Expert Control menu controls are disabled, so the video signal will bypass that 'Expert Controls Menu' processing step."

[huhn]

Well, there's a slight difference using "03. Grayscale\04. 10bit test" files of "Mehanik HDR10 test pattern" between 8bit and 10bit (12bit output is set in nvidia CP).
That means processing is not 8bit, but maybe like with chroma 4:4:4, it's not 10bit either :D I don't know.
you could show a difference between these using 6 bit so what's your point. that's why dithering exist to fake a bit deep that doesn't exist. the simples form is alternating pattern with for example 1 and 0 which would look like 0.5 ignoring gamma curves and such.

Don't wait for that :D

From one of Ted's write up (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-105.html#post58372750):
"LG will convert any HDMI input RGB-Video colorspace signal to YCbCr 4:4:4 for applying initially most of the UI (user interface) adjustments.
The UI user setting will be merged in an algorithm which will interpolate values between multiple user settings to manipulate the video signal.
Looks like that there additional features of Expert Controls Menu (Dynamic Contrast, White Balance, CMS etc.) which will require more complex processing so for the TV to significantly reduce the bandwidth and the required processing power it will compress the horizontal chroma resolution in half; chroma subsampling from YCbCr 4:4:4 -> YCbCr 4:2:2; as this will reduce by 33.3% the video data bandwidth.
I believe this is the reason why these OLED TV's will not display full chroma (YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB-Video) with PC Icon enabled (of HDMI Input) from 24p/30p/50p input signal but only with 60p signal where all the Expert Control menu controls are disabled, so the video signal will bypass that 'Expert Controls Menu' processing step."

sonys can do everything in 4:4:4 even entry level sonys...
and monitors anyway.

BTW. RGB is very useful for UI interfaces because you can alpha blend and such there is a reason computer and computer games use it.
doing colorcorrection and such is very easy even at 16 bit i would even say it is trivial simple quality scaling should cost more.
stuff like motion interpolation and such are processing intensive not the general work of a TV it's not much different from a monitor.

[chros]

Strange it works fine here, even when I switch between passthrough and pixelshader (I haven't noticed this before).
This works well, so it's easy to test: just pause the playback and switch back and forth.
Passthrough vs pixelshader (LG's DTM is off):
- pixelshader results just a bit brighter image with titles above 760 nits (e.g. JohnWick@01:04 , Alien@01:24 , Meg@00:07)
- pixelshader results just a bit darker image with titles below 760 nits (e.g. Mockingjay@00:06 , Alita@00:10)

Pixelshader is better with highlights
- Meg:
-- 00:03: sky is a bit whiter, blue leds on the girl's shoe is more vivid; waves/antennas getting more visible with highlight recovery very high
-- 00:15: girl's hair clip
- Godzilla:
-- 00:23: lights above the stove
-- 01:09: light is wither
- Mad Max:
-- 00:05: reflection om the edge of the car
-- 00:52: screw on the wheel looks more shiny
-- 02:15: highlights in the orange sky to the left (that's the biggest difference)

Pixelshader is different (worse?):
- JohnWick:
-- 00:04: blue lights to the left
-- 00:15: blue lights to the right

Notes:
- highlight recovery very high can help 4000's titles and above, it doesn't have any effect below (I've updated the settings picture)
- I haven't checked LG's DTM yet

[j82k]

Don't wait for that :D

From one of Ted's write up (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-105.html#post58372750):
"LG will convert any HDMI input RGB-Video colorspace signal to YCbCr 4:4:4 for applying initially most of the UI (user interface) adjustments.
The UI user setting will be merged in an algorithm which will interpolate values between multiple user settings to manipulate the video signal.
Looks like that there additional features of Expert Controls Menu (Dynamic Contrast, White Balance, CMS etc.) which will require more complex processing so for the TV to significantly reduce the bandwidth and the required processing power it will compress the horizontal chroma resolution in half; chroma subsampling from YCbCr 4:4:4 -> YCbCr 4:2:2; as this will reduce by 33.3% the video data bandwidth.
I believe this is the reason why these OLED TV's will not display full chroma (YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB-Video) with PC Icon enabled (of HDMI Input) from 24p/30p/50p input signal but only with 60p signal where all the Expert Control menu controls are disabled, so the video signal will bypass that 'Expert Controls Menu' processing step."

If the C8 internally works with YCbCr and only converts to RGB in the last step that would explain why I got better results outputting YCbCr in SDR pc-mode. Outputting YCbCr would mean additional color conversions happen on the pc side but less color conversions happen inside the TV.

And if the TV does all the internal processing with only 8-bit precision in pc-mode that would also explain the banding. I think madVR does such things in 16 or even 32-bit.

[SamuriHL]

It would make sense that the C8 would internally use YCbCr because most consumer equipment will be sending that signal to it. Those conversions are ok when they use proper dithering, but, given that we see banding on the C8, it is very possible that either its dithering sucks or is largely non-existent in those conversions. UGH.

[VBB]

And in the end we'll never know for sure (even the mighty Ted, for whom I have the utmost respect :)).

[ashlar42]

I still don’t own an OLED display but I’ve honed my Kuro to perfection in all these years. Reading all the caveats and quirks of these displays is kind of scary to be honest. :D
Banding, bitdepths, pc mode, it all seems really messy.

[huhn]

the list of issues with an kuro is even longer.
CR at all cost to make it short.

[VBB]

The benefits of OLED far outweigh any inherent issues, IMO. I can't watch anything on an LCD anymore :D

[QBhd]

Oh yeah... we bitch and moan about the littlest of things, but if ANYONE of us OLED owners had to go back to any other tech, I'm sure we all would rather have teeth pulled!

Maybe, MAYYYBEEE some of us would go back to Plasma, but even then, I doubt it.

QB

[VBB]

My only gripe is motion, really. There just isn't a good way to compensate for instant pixel response with sample-and-hold technology. This is where 24 fps really shows its age. The closer you sit, the more obvious the issue becomes. In the other thread I described how I now use madVR's smooth motion to play everything back at 60Hz. This actually works pretty well, but it adds a bit of blur to motion that would otherwise be stuttery on OLEDs (when played back without smooth motion and in its native frame rate). I do prefer it over the stutter, though. Playback at 120Hz should make this even better, when HDMI 2.1 is fully implemented and video cards are available.

[huhn]

at 120 HZ it would get "worse"(if you want the "ghosting") because you get less blended frames and they are shown shorter letting it look more like native 24 hz.

[VBB]

I'll still take it over no blending at all. Another benefit (for me anyway) of playback at 60Hz is no need for audio delay. Also with smooth motion there are no repeated frames, so custom resolutions become unnecessary.

[Asmodian]

Yep, smooth motion is a great feature for OLEDs. It works way better than I would have expected. :)

[chros]

If the C8 internally works with YCbCr and only converts to RGB in the last step that would explain why I got better results outputting YCbCr in SDR pc-mode.
In SDR mode? I haven't noticed anything like this with SDR content with RGB Full 12bit input.
If you have such a scene (preferably BD remux) then upload it somewhere.

Outputting YCbCr would mean additional color conversions happen on the pc side but less color conversions happen inside the TV.
Yes, although this seems the best option in PC mode (see below), from madshi's post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271416#post1271416):
"If you switch your GPU control panel to YCbCr, the GPU receives RGB from Windows, but you ask the GPU to send YCbCr to the TV. Consequently, the GPU has to convert the RGB pixels behind Windows' back to YCbCr. Some GPU drivers might do this in high bitdepth with dithering, which may produce acceptable results. But some GPU drivers definitely do this in 8bit without any dithering which will introduce lots of nasty banding artifacts into the image. Furthermore, there are various different RGB <-> YCbCr matrixes available. E.g. there's one each for BT.601, BT.709 and BT.2020. Now which of these will the GPU use for the conversion? And which will the TV use to convert back to RGB? If the GPU and the TV use different matrixes, color errors will be introduced. As a result I cannot recommend this configuration."

I notice a huge difference in banding with full range RGB input between PC mode and HDMI mode. I would rather have the banding than subsampled chroma, but I use the display for a lot more than watching 4:2:0 compressed video.

If I use YCbCr444 limited range input I get basically the same banding as when using HDMI mode, but while in PC mode with 4:4:4 chroma. This has the GPU converting madVR's output but it seems to do a better job than the display does, which probably works in limited range YCbCr internally somewhere given the banding differences. This seems like the best compromise I can get. I cannot stand subsampled chroma but the banding is still pretty bad with raw 8 bit RGB input on the C9. :(
Only good news is that YCbCr444 results in the exact same (near) chroma 4:4:4 as RGB Full.

And if the TV does all the internal processing with only 8-bit precision in pc-mode that would also explain the banding. I think madVR does such things in 16 or even 32-bit.
16bit internally. But there *is* "banding" (and other crazy sh*t) with 8bit RGB Full as well in HDR10 mode.

I just tried pc-mode HDR again a few days ago. Played the UHD of Brightburn, skipped to some dark scene and it looked like some low bitrate TV broadcast.
This. Good spot with HDR10 content! It's not even 8bit vs 10bit but RGB vs YCbCr 4:4:4.
It's like some basic processing is missing in low APL (darkish) scenes with LG's tonemapping (with and without LG's DTM) that destroys the image (madvr tonemapping can't help this). Interestingly I haven't spot wierd things in normal/high APL scenes.

Download this sample (~3.6GB) (https://mega.nz/#F!r9N0VK5R!WnnyYsGqwa7M-v1jckw6iQ) (01-2160p_23fps_hdr0686-thgm_banding.mkv).
I spotted at least 3 different problems (maybe 2nd and 3rd is the same), tested with passthrough + DTM + RBG full 12bit:
- banding: e.g. red light of torches around @03:20
- added noise: @00:32, around @01:16
- posterisation: clouds in dark scenes, @03:20, @03:25, etc.

Posterisation is just crazy sometimes! :) That's what you've noticed and I didn't so far. That's the biggest problem and this has nothing to do with 8bit vs 10bit as it's also present with 8bit.

8bit YCbCr 4:4:4 (limited) eliminates a lot of them, but there's still banding and the nasty posterisation still exist e.g. @03:25 (although removes it from @03:20).

None of this happens in HDMI mode even with RGB Full 12bit!

[iSeries]

Hey for those using/testing madVR tonemapping (with the latest test build) with HDR output to your OLED, what tonemapping settings are you using in madVR? There's a ton of options and I don't really know what most of them do and what values to use. Also, if using DTM, does using madVR tonempping even make a difference? Any help here appreciated.

I did just manage to disable Real Cinema in HDR mode and it only took me 10 minutes lol. Smooth Motion is definitely the way to go with these.

[ashlar42]

at 120 HZ it would get "worse"(if you want the "ghosting") because you get less blended frames and they are shown shorter letting it look more like native 24 hz.I’m not sure about this.
From Asmodian options guide:
The blurring is more visible when the refresh rate matches the source frame rate because all the frames will be blended frames. The blurring is less visible on higher refresh rate displays because fewer frames will be blended frames.
[CUT]
Note that smooth motion has less blurring when displaying 23.976 fps at 60 Hz than 23.976 fps at 24 Hz so this option is not recommended unless you cannot increase the display's refresh rate.
It’s rather confusing. I would say that displaying 23.976 material at 120Hz should lead to results similar to 23.976 at 24Hz. All frames would be blended frames, wouldn’t they?

[SamuriHL]

Hey for those using/testing madVR tonemapping (with the latest test build) with HDR output to your OLED, what tonemapping settings are you using in madVR? There's a ton of options and I don't really know what most of them do and what values to use. Also, if using DTM, does using madVR tonempping even make a difference? Any help here appreciated.

I did just manage to disable Real Cinema in HDR mode and it only took me 10 minutes lol. Smooth Motion is definitely the way to go with these.

This is a very complicated topic, I'm afraid. You're not going to get a single, concise answer. That being said, I can offer my personal opinion on this topic.

-I have settled on disabling DTM on the LG for now...I may change this opinion once I do more testing.
-I use unscrewed with measurement files. I don't try to get cute with them and modify them for more "dynamic" solutions. :D This is a very personal choice.

For HDR tone mapping settings:

-Target nit to 760
-Highlight recovery strength Are you Nuts? This is also a very personal choice as this can introduce ringing but damn it's nice IMO.
-fire set to balanced

I ignore the rest of it because I'm not using the live algo.

I have unchecked everything in trade performance options. I use error diffusion 2, color checked. I use ngu aa high chroma. That about covers it. FOR ME.

[huhn]

I’m not sure about this.
From Asmodian options guide:

It’s rather confusing. I would say that displaying 23.976 material at 120Hz should lead to results similar to 23.976 at 24Hz. All frames would be blended frames, wouldn’t they?

you are just wrongly interpret his post.
if you use SM 24 hz with 23p file you get blended frames that are shown for about 42 ms which is very blurry.

if you do SM at 120 hz with 23p the blurried frames are shown for 8.3 ms about every 42-8.3 ms and the far majority is not blended

[j82k]

Guess which one is pc-mode. :D

HDR RGB 8-bit (pc vs non-pc):
https://i.imgur.com/Kgk6IK0.gif


HDR ycbcr 8-bit (pc vs non-pc):
https://i.imgur.com/Kxr4NDa.gif


PC-Mode HDR completely fucks up the low end on my C8. Not only the banding but also the colors and it transitions into black too fast. I didn't even try to somehow calibrate this out because even then the banding would still remain. What's funny is when you use madVR's 'reduce banding artifacts' it sometimes makes the banding look even worse in pc-mode.

I also tried this with 12-bit output but that didn't make it any better.

[SamuriHL]

PC mode on these displays is completely broken IMO. I tried it before and had to turn it back off because the issues are just too much. It's nice to have chroma 4:4:4, no question, but, breaking so many other things defeats the purpose.

[QBhd]

I have been thinking the black crush on PC mode never got fixed with the latest C8 firmware. For SDR, I have bumped the luminance of the 5% 20-point to +10, but even then blacks seem to fall off way too much.

I have not watched enough HDR before or after the FW update to make a comparison.

QB

[Asmodian]

I also tried this with 12-bit output but that didn't make it any better.

How does PC mode look with YCbCr444 limited range input?

[j82k]

Banding wise I'd say for sdr pc-mode ycbcr444 8-bit is the best one to use, for hdr pc-mode everything is just terrible... :)

[chros]

Hey for those using/testing madVR tonemapping (with the latest test build) with HDR output to your OLED, what tonemapping settings are you using in madVR? Also, if using DTM, does using madVR tonempping even make a difference?
Use these for testing (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1882771#post1882771), and that's the purpose of the exercise :)

Guess which one is pc-mode. :D
:D These are perfect examples!

PC-Mode HDR completely fucks up the low end on my C8. Not only the banding but also the colors and it transitions into black too fast.
Interesting, not on mine (see below).

I didn't even try to somehow calibrate this out because even then the banding would still remain.
It's not "banding", at least not in the traditional sense, more like posterisation (due to lack of processing): and it sometimes (not all the time) destroys the image.

for hdr pc-mode everything is just terrible...
Just watched the new Men in Black HD10 passthrough in PC mode RGB Full 12bit + DTM: it was gorgeous! :D
I tried to count how many times I notice some anomaly: 5 times during the whole movie.
This is a very bright movie (9000 maxCLL, 4000 MDL, 942 FALL), probably that's why.

Banding wise I'd say for sdr pc-mode ycbcr444 8-bit is the best one to use
I never noticed this on my set (PC mode RGB Full 12bit), and the last 2 days I even tried to look for a sample (switching between PC and HDMI mode).
If you will come across such a sample upload it, please :)

I have been thinking the black crush on PC mode never got fixed with the latest C8 firmware. For SDR, I have bumped the luminance of the 5% 20-point to +10, but even then blacks seem to fall off way too much.
Are you sure? Have you switched between PC and HDMI mode to confirm black crush?
That's why I'm still on 4.10.25 B8.

Panel variance... :)

Just quoting Ted (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-10.html#post58376964) here:
"Some LG OLED's have passed the factory QC (Quality Control) with near black clipping issues and shipped to stores, for these panels it will be required to adjust the Brightness to 55-56 or up to 60-61 (in worst case scenario) from the default 50 value for the near black clipping issue to be resolved. "
I saw this as well, it's really said. I know at least one person who has a C8 like this (brand new set, no panel replacement, black crush at default settings with the built-in app).
Fortunately my B8 was factory calibrated, original panel hasn't been replaced yet, so it has almost perfect gamma tracking in every mode (SDR, HDR10, DV; both in HDMI and PC mode).

I know people don't want to believe that there can be such a huge panel variance with LG Oleds and but I've experienced this with my own C8. The original panel had a very bright low-end and then I got a replacement panel (due to vertical banding) which had an extremely dark/crushed low-end at default settings.
This means that the factory calibrated settings (White point in service menu, 1dlut, something else?) on the mainboard are not good for the new panel, and that's "normal".
The question is: can we do something about it by ourself?
- we can modify the RGB values of White points in service menu
- but I'm not sure about the screwed up 1dlut: can you correct it e.g. with Calman?
- what else needs to be done in this case? (whether it's possible or not)

[j82k]

I never noticed this on my set (PC mode RGB Full 12bit), and the last 2 days I even tried to look for a sample (switching between PC and HDMI mode).
If you will come across such a sample upload it, please :)


From what I can tell, the pc-mode banding is mostly in the lower range and the banding from 12-bit output I could often see in the mid or higher range, like gradients in the sky. I could look for scenes but right now I don't feel like messing around with that again. I'm just done with pc-mode and 12-bit for now. I just occasionally like to check if there had been any changes with a firmware/nvidia/windows update regarding those issues. In SDR it's not that bad but I don't want to constantly switch between pc-mode for SDR and non-pc for HDR.


This means that the factory calibrated settings (White point in service menu, 1dlut, something else?) on the mainboard are not good for the new panel, and that's "normal".
The question is: can we do something about it by ourself?
- we can modify the RGB values of White points in service menu
- but I'm not sure about the screwed up 1dlut: can you correct it e.g. with Calman?
- what else needs to be done in this case? (whether it's possible or not)


I think LG only does a very basic 2-Point Gain RGB adjustment in the service menu for each panel. They don't do anything that would affect the black levels. So just a lack of quality control I guess...
All you can do if you got such a crushed low-end panel is trying to find some combination of brightness/2P Low RGB/ 20-Point that fixes the low-end and doesn't raise true black...

[chros]

I could look for scenes but right now I don't feel like messing around with that again. I'm just done with pc-mode and 12-bit for now.
No worries, maybe others will :)

I think LG only does a very basic 2-Point Gain RGB adjustment in the service menu for each panel. They don't do anything that would affect the black levels.
Hmm, I might ask Ted :)

[SamuriHL]

Nope I've no desire to mess with the broken PC mode again either. 8 bit hdmi mode for me.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[ashlar42]

One thing I was wondering about, considering my current status as a plasma owner: if one looks closely to the pixels, on a plasma, one sees "noise". I think it's PWM noise. For many it's something they wanted to eliminate but I'm wondering if it would be feasible to replicate it on an OLED, through a shader or something. I am not sure but I'm half convinced that it was part of the "organic" look that many liked with plasma.

Edit: maybe using Random Dithering/Error Diffusion 1, with color noise and change dither for every frame could suffice? Testing this, I would say no.

[huhn]

try 5-6 bit random dithering that should give you a similar results

[Gadgety]

I got this TV a couple years ago only to watch movies. In the store the TV was demoed with a 4k opera, and the image was breathtaking, and it looked like HDR. All reviews I saw highlighted the possibility for HDR images. Quite a while late I learned that the HDR was only possible when feeding the images via a USB stick (!) not via HDMI, and that it was caused by a software flaw that LG had no intention of correcting. HDMI input gets overridden, I understand. I've got two questions, first, does this influence the usage with MadVR? Second, is there a workaround, say via a service menu settings, to get HDR on this panel from the HDMI input?

[Klaus1189]

No, only when you want to passthrough HDR metadata to the TV, but let madVR do the tonemapping and it is fine.

[sat4all]

https://youtu.be/wxMQLzJvr4A?t=172
Both LG OLED 2018/2019 models use 700nits as default HDR peak luminance for internal gamma to PQ EOTF processing, so if you want accurate PQ EOTF tracking you should reduce oled light to achieve 700nits.

[Gadgety]

Thank you Klaus1189! That's great! Would you know, this being a 55 inch TV, any point in doing NGU Very high, or is there no discernible difference between that and NGU high? I have a lot of 720 material.

[SamuriHL]

If you're upscaling 720 or 1080 material to 2160, then try ngu sharp very high for luma and see what you think. For 720 content with my 2070 I have to drop chroma to ngu aa medium. For 1080 I use ngu aa high. That's while using ngu sharp very high for luma. The results are quite impressive but play around with it and see what you think. Ultimately the "best" quality is judged by you.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Gadgety]

Thank you, I'm just looking into what GPU to get. I see, it'll be exhaustive on performance. It'd be really interesting to see image comparisons for various chroma levels from ngu aa medium and going down the range, just to see what I can expect (and ultimately what kind of card to go for). Perhaps such a comparison already exists?

[SamuriHL]

It's only exhaustive on performance depending on your goals. I've told you what *I* do and for that I ended up with an RTX 2070. You may decide you can live with some compromises on quality for a cheaper card. Or you may want to go all out and get a heftier card. The choice is yours. Madvr will make use of any performance you can give it. The Envy Pro is going to drive a 2080ti under the hood. I know some people are enjoying the newest AMD cards, as well. I've no experience with them so I can't comment on how good they'd be for madvr. Depending on what you're doing, some people are perfectly content with a 1060. I was not satisfied with mine for UHD and opted to upgrade. The point I'm trying to make here is that madvr will take advantage of whatever card you give it, and it's up to you to determine what level of quality you're looking to get out of madvr and price a card accordingly. Hope this helps even if it's not a direct answer to your question. But at least you may now understand why there isn't one.

[Gadgety]

Yes, thank you SamuriHL! Would you know of any example images comparing the various levels of low, medium, high, very high for NGU?

[SamuriHL]

I'm sure someone's put some out there. I don't know of any off hand. But I can't imagine it'd be too hard to find some.

[Gadgety]

Which would be better AMD Vega RX 64 or the RTX2060 for MadVR? ATM they're priced about the same, RTX slightly more expensive.

[SamuriHL]

I don't know the answer. The RTX 2060 is ok. I'm not sure it'll let you get to very high for luma upscaling but I don't know for sure. I know nothing at all about the AMD cards and how well they work for madvr so maybe an AMD user will chime in here. Really, I'm not the one to help you on this decision as I just don't know enough about those cards.

[Gadgety]

Thank you for the reply, anyway!

[huhn]

forget the vega 64 the 5700 is in the same price range and the same performance range.

RX 5700 driver support is at best broken at the moment.

madshi recommends turing card he didn't do it here but he did it at other places before far more then one time.

[Gadgety]

Thank you for the heads up, huhn! Wondering if it might be so that the MadVR Pro offering that I've since discovered may utilize the RTX specific benefits.

[chros]

I got LG 55EG920V a couple years ago only to watch movies. In the store the TV was demoed with a 4k opera, and the image was breathtaking, and it looked like HDR. All reviews I saw highlighted the possibility for HDR images. Quite a while late I learned that the HDR was only possible when feeding the images via a USB stick (!) not via HDMI, and that it was caused by a software flaw that LG had no intention of correcting. HDMI input gets overridden, I understand.
Are you sure that it is the case? Did LG do it with a firmware upgrade?
Strange, I quickly checked this forum (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-55eg920v-4k-hdr-oled.1951100/page-79) and there are guys who used HDR via PC (meaning using HDMI).

I've got two questions, first, does this influence the usage with MadVR?
You want to output HDR to the TV with madvr: it looks way better (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/3053602-madvr-envy-anticipation-thread-46.html#post58580332) than SDR converted image (with madvr tonemapping).
So, try to sort this out, either with this very TV or (if you can afford) upgrade to a newer one. :)

Would you know, this being a 55 inch TV, any point in doing NGU Very high, or is there no discernible difference between that and NGU high? I have a lot of 720 material.
Id' say there's not much difference on an 55" screen (especially if you view it from ~3m). E.g. I quadroupling with NGU AA Low and downscaling ssimd with 720p and it looks good.

It'd be really interesting to see image comparisons for various chroma levels from ngu aa medium and going down the range, just to see what I can expect (and ultimately what kind of card to go for). Perhaps such a comparison already exists?
Take a look at this thread (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175429) to view some "recent" image comparisons (including chroma upscaling as well).

[Gadgety]

Thank you, chros, both for the links and the replies!

As for "Are you sure that it is the case? Did LG do it with a firmware upgrade?"

I have never seen a confirmation that LG ever upgraded the HDMI HDR capability in firmware (Edit: I have now). I have seen attempts at petitioning them, with very few takers. I haven't got a 4k capable card, nor UHD bluray player to test either. Which is why I ask here. Before investing money in a GPU.

"Strange, I quickly checked this forum and there are guys who used HDR via PC (meaning using HDMI)."

So it seems, but it's kind of inconclusive, and some confusion, as per usual on forums, and the thread ends in 2017.

"You want to output HDR to the TV with madvr: it looks way better than SDR converted image (with madvr tonemapping)."


That's surprising. So far what I had seen seemed to suggest SDR out. I'll remember to try if I get that far.

[Charky]

That's surprising. So far what I had seen seemed to suggest SDR out. I'll remember to try if I get that far.
I don't get why anyone would want to convert HDR to SDR on a HDR-capable display.

I mean, HDR to SDR conversion is useful if your display don't support HDR (I watch a lot of HDR content on my Sony HW40ES thats been converted to SDR thanks to madvr excellent dynamic tone mapping), but if you own a HDR display and have HDR sources... just watch them as they are supposed to be :D

[j82k]

On a display that can archive its peak brightness and its full color gamut in SDR, HDR to SDR would be the better method as that would make certain there is no tone mapping involved on the display end.

The problem is just with Oled TVs which have a restricted brightness output in SDR mode, if that wasn't the case HDR to SDR would be the better choice...

[Gadgety]

I don't get why anyone would want to convert HDR to SDR on a HDR-capable display.

I mean, HDR to SDR conversion is useful if your display don't support HDR (I watch a lot of HDR content on my Sony HW40ES thats been converted to SDR thanks to madvr excellent dynamic tone mapping), but if you own a HDR display and have HDR sources... just watch them as they are supposed to be :D

Right, astoundingly apparently it wasn't functioning well, and LG didn't correct it. There was a petition back in the day:


"Our model has the capability to produce a stunning HDR experience. All HDR videos from Demo UHD-3D - Ultra-HD / 4K / HDR / 3D can verify this fact, running either from an USB stick or an external UHD HDR Player. But when we play "real" HDR content (movies or series) the experience is utterly ruined. The image is dull and the colours are washed out. The problem is that our Contrast and OLED Light are locked when playing HDR Content. The reason is they should automatically be set to maximum for HDR Content, but they are not. The problem is merely a small bug, but it has huge impact on our experience of watching proper HDR content. So please give us an update, LG!"

https://www.change.org/p/lg-hdr-firmware-update-lg-eg920-models

Others were complaining it didn't work from HDR players either. I never had 4k sources so I couldn't test it, and there wasn't any confirmation from LG or anyone else that it had been addressed.

[chros]

I never had 4k sources so I couldn't test it, and there wasn't any confirmation from LG or anyone else that it had been addressed.
Since there's nobody here with your model as it seems, you have 2 options:
- try it for yourself (that's preferable)
- sign up for those forums and ask other members about this, maybe it's changed

[Gadgety]

I got a PM reply. From a GPU it works. Now what remains is selecting a GPU that can handle upscaling from 480 to 4k. It may not be worth the extra cost for a card that can handle it. A question, unrelated to LG TVs, I understand part of the challenge with upscaling is the time it takes for the card to do it. Is it possible to record the MadVR output from a GPU, sort of "remasterization" of the movie file?

[chros]

I got a PM reply. From a GPU it works. Now what remains is selecting a GPU that can handle upscaling from 480 to 4k.
Good news! :) Take a look at the this post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/26-home-theater-computers/2364113-guide-building-4k-htpc-madvr-114.html#post58596206) and the link in it, hope it helps. 1 more thing: if you can't or don't want to use PC mode on the TV (to get chroma 4:4:4) then you can go down to bicubic60 chroma upscaling that requires way less resource.

[Gadgety]

Thank you, chros! The link in the post shows the table containing this piece of information: if (srcHeight < 577) and (deintFps < 26) "0576p25".

Prior to that it says:

-d3d11 mode in LAV video (madvr image processing is much faster compared to the other modes)
- hdr passthrough to 4k hdr display
- in nVidia panel
-- power management set to "Adaptive"
-- output: RGB, FULL, 12bit


I read that as when inputting below 577 in height your 1060 is still able to output RGB, FULL, 12 bit. Is my understanding correct?

[chros]

Of course :) But instead of guessing, wait for your new card and then you can try out everything :)

[Gadgety]

OK, wow, so the 1060 has enough power to take SD to 4k on a 55 inch screen, and it looks like image and chroma upscaling, NGU Sharp, High Quality, at 25 frames a second, and even faster rates, is my understanding correct? Of course my understanding is rather coarse. Are there auxiliary settings you set lower in order to accomplish this? I think I saw somewhere that HDR tone mapping requires at least a GTX1660 6GB, or from the RTX2060 and up. So, if I forego the RTX series, a 1660 would suffice?

[chros]

OK, wow, so the 1060 has enough power to take SD to 4k on a 55 inch screen, and it looks like image and chroma upscaling, NGU Sharp, High Quality, at 25 frames a second, and even faster rates, is my understanding correct?
Yes, link (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1881568#post1881568), although you don't want to use Sharp with <=720p content, but AA (maybe Standard).

Are there auxiliary settings you set lower in order to accomplish this?
No, but you can see it on those screenshots.

I think I saw somewhere that HDR tone mapping requires at least a GTX1660 6GB, or from the RTX2060 and up. So, if I forego the RTX series, a 1660 would suffice?
I don't know about 1660, I think it doesn't have any tensor core, so if that's true then no point of buying it.
But IMO there's no point of using madvr's HDR tone mapping either with a HDR capable display (like yours) but simply using passthrough. You can read more about it from here through 5 pages (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/3053602-madvr-envy-anticipation-thread-46.html#post58578684).

[Gadgety]

Thank you very much, chros!

[chros]

Yea, the PC mode flaws are annoying. I have a huge macro in my remote to rename the input every single time I watch HDR... then rename it back after I am done.
They really need to add a easier solution to switch in/out of PC mode.
:D :D :D

Hum no, they need to fix 4:4:4 RGB support so it doesn't suffer worse image quality than 4:2:2 YCC.
+1 (but probably it won't happen anytime soon :( )

I hope they'll start focusing on the bugs PC mode has.
We can only hope and pray :D

Why HDR playback should be affected at all in this mode? PC mode was designed for general desktop usage and gaming.
Because of the increased amount of data to process (4:4:4 vs 4:2:2). Ted thinks that all is happening because of the WeobOS UI.

They're using a lower quality image processing in PC mode compared to other modes, so in practice you have to choose between 4:4:4 RGB and good image quality.
"good image quality" :D

Out of curiosity, how does these two pictures look on an LG OLED in PC Mode when displaying it at 100% size (1:1 Pixel)?
http://www.ozone3d.net/public/jegx/201412/chroma-subsampling-test-4k-tv.png
What @chros was referring to was a statement made by Ted over at AVS, claiming that the LGs don't do a perfect 4:4:4, but very close. Nevertheless, chroma patterns are displayed without (noticeable) sub-sampling.
That's not true: "this can be visible on the yellow and the bottom row text of Quick brown fox image", just look closer and pay attention (SDR or HDR mode, doesn't matter) and you'll notice red small artifacts (I also missed it at first). So, yes, it's visible, but not from 3 metres :)

Only LG OLEDs are affected or also LCD based TVs from LG? Is it year depending?
There is no difference between models and years, as far as we can tell.
Yes, that's right, all of them are the same, and it seems that every LG TV that uses WebOS UI (see above), but I'm not sure about the latter.

But that's just 1 issue out of who knows how many (not necessarily just LG related), e.g.:
- chrominance overshoot (aka "macroblock flashing")
- can't profile/calibrate HDR mode
- near black banding
- tinting
- at least 3 ABL algos
- and this:

... my LG has issues in PC mode but these started quote late into the updates, probably only last year, it was fine initially
As it turned out LG tend to screw up things in later firmwares and they just leave it there as it is for half year/forever: e.g. gamma screw up (black crush) in B8/C8/E8 firmwares. And they (smartly) removed the possibility to revert a firmware in the latest ones! :D

How about Panasonic OLED ... TVs?
They don't have 1 thing that I definitely need: judder free 23p playback in PC mode. @huhn told us this back in the day but I didn't *want* to believe it :)
If the above is not important then this year models can be interesting since finally they also have Dolby Vision.

@jk82 tested it (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2896737-oled-screen-uniformity-discussion-banding-vignetting-255.html#post58546778) on GZ2000:
- fixed chrominance overshoot
- chroma 4:4:4 in PC mode
- better near black banding than LG

But if you think that finally a good manufacturer then think again: he has sent back 2 sets (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2896737-oled-screen-uniformity-discussion-banding-vignetting-258.html#post58629240) in 3 weeks and that was the pricey flagship model! :)

[huhn]

They don't have 1 thing that I definitely need: judder free 23p playback in PC mode. @huhn told us this back in the day but I didn't *want* to believe it

it's been a couple of years it's just sad to hear that this is still the case.

they have an far above avg user support her in german if you don't contact them using the normal contacts i tried it may self the technician instantly knew what i was talking about but could only point the TV may not have to be able to do this "correctly".

there is one company that at least tries and that's sony are they perfect no far from it but it's not hard to be better then the rest.

processing power limitation is just none sense proper 4:4:4 processing could be done atleast 10 years ago no much longer and now we have big number x times processing power in these TVs. the only reason they don't change is people will still buy there TVs so why care.

[quietvoid]

With test build v103, I can't see any detail loss with "don't desaturate" for DCI-P3 and 760 peak nits on my LG C8.
All is good :)

[RXP]

Quietvoid - could you post what settings you're seeing good results with? I've got it setup for my JVC x9000 but want to see how I can tweak the settings for my OLED.

[chros]

With test build v103, I can't see any detail loss with "don't desaturate" for DCI-P3 and 760 peak nits on my LG C8.
All is good :)
Nice to hear it, I saw that @SamuriHL stated something similar as well :)
As @RXP asked it, can you post your full hdr settings (on avsforum is easier I think), and:
- do you still see flicker / brightness changes during normal content?
- which content did you watch?
- have you compared it to passthrough?

Thanks!

[quietvoid]

These are my settings: https://i.ibb.co/Gx1bQ1g/madvr.png (https://ibb.co/Gx1bQ1g)

I have not tested regular content, just watched the S&M UHD Benchmark demos once while comparing on/off.
There's a significant saturation boost for the Eagle scene, the beak keeps all the yellow instead of being white.

With HSTM, there's much more depth compared to static tonemapping. Passthrough probably looks closer to static tonemapped (dynamic target nits unchecked).

[chros]

I have not tested regular content, just watched the S&M UHD Benchmark demos once while comparing on/off.
There's a significant saturation boost for the Eagle scene, the beak keeps all the yellow instead of being white.

With HSTM, there's much more depth compared to static tonemapping. Passthrough probably looks closer to static tonemapped (dynamic target nits unchecked).
Thanks, then I'll wait for a usable version instead :) Keep us updated ...

Retesting now with GotG.
713 for passthrough, 669 with 760 nit tone mapping for GotG.
Thanks for testing, exactly what I got on my B8 (well, apart from the exact code value, since they're different between the B8 vs C8).

I tried to rephrase it in this post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-119.html#post58711138), if you still don't understand what we want to test/prove with it, then just ask :)

[SamuriHL]

With test build v103, I can't see any detail loss with "don't desaturate" for DCI-P3 and 760 peak nits on my LG C8.
All is good :)

It's slightly oversaturated but really close. I watched Dark Knight Rises with it yesterday and just WOW what a fantastic job. I think we need some place in between don't desaturate and 1 and we'll have that nailed.

Nice to hear it, I saw that @SamuriHL stated something similar as well :)
As @RXP asked it, can you post your full hdr settings (on avsforum is easier I think), and:
- do you still see flicker / brightness changes during normal content?
- which content did you watch?
- have you compared it to passthrough?

Thanks!

Yea, they've been doing remarkable work in the past few builds. It's really come a long way. And I want to point out something....this is with the live algo. :D We're not using the measurement files at this point. No flickering anymore with a setting of 1000 on build 103. I've not checked to see if there's been any updates today as I've been stuck at work all day.

I watched Dark Knight Rises as mentioned and I don't know what you mean by "compare it to passthrough" cause passthrough doesn't even come close. LOL

[SamuriHL]

Thanks for testing, exactly what I got on my B8 (well, apart from the exact code value, since they're different between the B8 vs C8).

I tried to rephrase it in this post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-119.html#post58711138), if you still don't understand what we want to test/prove with it, then just ask :)

I see what you want to do but I have no way of testing it. Would be nice if I had an HD Fury cause i could throw it on the UB820 but that isn't possible. I did read the later discussion, too, about it not being a super accurate calculation due to the possibility of 1 to several bright pixels being left in a frame. madshi calculates a 99% value for it that should help with that. I know soulnight's tool that works on the measurement files allow you to specify what you want to use which is rather handy. I don't have the time right now but you might want to check using an older madvr test build (measurement files are currently messed up afaik) and using soulnight's tool to specify the value you want to use. See if that changes anything. It may not.

[Warner306]

These are my settings: https://i.ibb.co/Gx1bQ1g/madvr.png (https://ibb.co/Gx1bQ1g)

I have not tested regular content, just watched the S&M UHD Benchmark demos once while comparing on/off.
There's a significant saturation boost for the Eagle scene, the beak keeps all the yellow instead of being white.

With HSTM, there's much more depth compared to static tonemapping. Passthrough probably looks closer to static tonemapped (dynamic target nits unchecked).

Does Histogram Shaped Tone Mapping work with HDR output? There is no need to scale the target nits with passthrough. It should always be 760 nits PQ 1:1. HSTM is supposed to scale with the gamma curve.

[SamuriHL]

It definitely works with HDR output. Very well, in fact. I don't use passthrough at all.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Warner306]

I don't understand what it is doing to the HDR output. The dynamic target nits takes the tone mapped BT.2390 PQ tone curve and scales the entire source range to fit the entire display gamma curve. This shouldn't be necessary with HDR output to a display using a fixed PQ curve.

For example, if the target nits is 1,000 nits and the display nits is 100 nits, the entire image is compressed at a ratio of 10:1. So the image is 10x darker than the original source values. If the target nits drops to 200 nits, then the entire image is scaled to 100 nits at a 2:1 ratio. Why would you want to scale the entire source range when using HDR output?

HDR output should only be compressing the specular highlights with a straightforward PQ tone mapping curve. There is no need to expand some parts of the image and compress others after the roll-off is applied.

[chros]

I watched Dark Knight Rises as mentioned and I don't know what you mean by "compare it to passthrough" cause passthrough doesn't even come close. LOL
:D I'm glad to hear it!

No flickering anymore with a setting of 1000 on build 103.
Although I've read about more issues, so I'll wait until it will be fully usable.

Does Histogram Shaped Tone Mapping work with HDR output? There is no need to scale the target nits with passthrough. It should always be 760 nits PQ 1:1. HSTM is supposed to scale with the gamma curve.
Hm, interesting thought.

I see what you want to do but I have no way of testing it.
...
you might want to check using an older madvr test build (measurement files are currently messed up afaik) and using soulnight's tool to specify the value you want to use. See if that changes anything. It may not.
:) There's no need for it. Let me try to explain (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-119.html#post58715418) one more (and last) time :)

[SamuriHL]

I don't understand what it is doing to the HDR output. The dynamic target nits takes the tone mapped BT.2390 PQ tone curve and scales the entire source range to fit the entire display gamma curve. This shouldn't be necessary with HDR output to a display using a fixed PQ curve.

For example, if the target nits is 1,000 nits and the display nits is 100 nits, the entire image is compressed at a ratio of 10:1. So the image is 10x darker than the original source values. If the target nits drops to 200 nits, then the entire image is scaled to 100 nits at a 2:1 ratio. Why would you want to scale the entire source range when using HDR output?

HDR output should only be compressing the specular highlights with a straightforward PQ tone mapping curve. There is no need to expand some parts of the image and compress others after the roll-off is applied.

You would have to ask madshi on this one. What I do know is it makes a difference, even with HDR output. We were losing shadow detail and these latest builds have brought that back. I can't claim to know the technical details on this at all. But I can clearly see a very large improvement in PQ with these latest builds.

[chros]

I don't understand what it is doing to the HDR output. The dynamic target nits takes the tone mapped BT.2390 PQ tone curve and scales the entire source range to fit the entire display gamma curve. This shouldn't be necessary with HDR output to a display using a fixed PQ curve.
I don't know it either, ask madshi, you made me/us curious.
This is how I can imagine: compressing the range happens before applying the gamma curve on it.

HDR output should only be compressing the specular highlights with a straightforward PQ tone mapping curve. There is no need to expand some parts of the image and compress others after the roll-off is applied.
Maybe it happens before the roll-off.
Well, the current HTSM algo touches everything not just the highlights, and we use 760 nits as real peak nits. :)

[Warner306]

I'd ask him yourself. I don't even have an HDR display to test. If it is expanding or compressing the entire source range, it must be doing something odd to the values below the knee point of the tone mapping curve. Aren't they always supposed to be untouched PQ values with 1:1 luminance?

[chros]

I'd ask him yourself.
I don't dare to ask him anymore, I always feel I just upset him with my potential issues/bugs :)

I don't even have an HDR display to test.
It doesn't matter, since it's almost impossible to test these stuff with real content :D
So, if you are curious, just ask him.

If it is expanding or compressing the entire source range, it must be doing something odd to the values below the knee point of the tone mapping curve. Aren't they always supposed to be untouched PQ values with 1:1 luminance?
Well, this is a hard question, since there's no standard to follow when you tonemap to <=150 nits.

Not to mention, I always feel that HDR10 only (!) a compatibility layer of Dolby Vision for devices that don't support it. What I mean is that we don't have the capability of custom mapping based on scene-by-scene bases. And since almost every BR disc has DV, that's definitely not the creators' intent.

That's why personally I don't mind modifying the curve (e.g. with enabling LG's DTM).

But again, testing these stuff is not that easy: you can't just stop the playback and jump to a frame and take a look, because these algos (including LG's DTM as well) behave differently during normal playback (e.g. depending on the last 2 secs data).

[Warner306]

Well, this is a hard question, since there's no standard to follow when you tonemap to <=150 nits.

Yes, I agree with that, and for displays that must tone map 0-100 nits like virtually every projector HSTM tone mapping seems to work really well. I like it. I would call it a sophisticated form of local tone mapping.

Histogram Shaped Tone Mapping works like a local contrast enhancer that attempts to tone map each part of the image independently. I like how it makes an intelligent decision on what to enhance in a frame and what to compress based on the composition of the histogram.

FYI, a brightness histogram looks like this:

https://photographylife.com/understanding-histograms-in-photography

The histogram shows the distribution of pixels in the image. HSTM is looking at the average distribution of pixels in the image and dividing each scene into pixels that are above the average height of the mean and those that below the average height of the mean.

Parts of the image that are above the average distribution of pixels are expanded to be brighter and more colorful. And parts of the image that are below the average distribution of pixels are compressed more aggressively to appear darker and less colorful.

The end result is that you get contrast enhancement in bright HDR scenes and shadow detail restoration in darker HDR scenes or mixed brightness HDR scenes where shadow detail would otherwise be lost due to linear compression of the entire image.

But for a true HDR display that doesn't have to tone map 90% of the image 90% of the time, it shouldn't be necessary to tone map 0-100 nits (reference white) at all. Any loss of shadow detail or issues related to the accuracy of reference white are the fault of the default display calibration and not the tone mapping of the TV.

I might ask if using HSTM with HDR output is intended or simply hasn't been tested yet at some point when testing is complete. It definitely doesn't make sense to expand or compress ALL of the source values in the video for most scenes to fit a display representing HDR using a PQ curve and not a relative SDR gamma curve. HDR to SDR is expanding and compressing the entire gamma curve like an accordian as the video plays.

This expansion and compression of the image steps is meant for displays that have a very narrow range of contrast and have no choice but to compress almost the entire frame to balance the shadows, midtones and highlights to have the right amount of HDR contrast. Most bright HDR TVs don't have this issue with a lack of dynamic range to work with, save ABL and the brightest specular highlights that have to be compressed.

[chros]

I might ask if using HSTM with HDR output is intended or simply hasn't been tested yet at some point when testing is complete.
Thanks for the explanation above.
Definitely do it, because I'm pretty sure that no one will properly test HSTM with "output HDR format" :)
We are 4-5 of us who follow that topic and have HDR capable TVs, and apart from some small testing no one did any proper testing so far.
And I'm also pretty sure that none of us knows what's going on and why :)

It definitely doesn't make sense to expand or compress ALL of the source values in the video for most scenes to fit a display representing HDR using a PQ curve and not a relative SDR gamma curve. HDR to SDR is expanding and compressing the entire gamma curve like an accordian as the video plays.

This expansion and compression of the image steps is meant for displays that have a very narrow range of contrast and have no choice but to compress almost the entire frame to balance the shadows, midtones and highlights to have the right amount of HDR contrast. Most bright HDR TVs don't have this issue with a lack of dynamic range to work with, save ABL and the brightest specular highlights that have to be compressed.
I'd say I agree with you *if* I wouldn't feel like this:

... HDR10 only (!) a compatibility layer of Dolby Vision for devices that don't support it. What I mean is that we don't have the capability of custom mapping based on scene-by-scene bases. And since almost every BR disc has DV, that's definitely not the creators' intent.

That's why personally I don't mind modifying the curve (e.g. with enabling LG's DTM).

But definitely interesting thoughts, thanks!

[quietvoid]

But for a true HDR display that doesn't have to tone map 90% of the image 90% of the time, it shouldn't be necessary to tone map 0-100 nits (reference white) at all. Any loss of shadow detail or issues related to the accuracy of reference white are the fault of the default display calibration and not the tone mapping of the TV.For the little I understand, because the madVR peak nits is set high (760 nits) and the color gamut is DCI-P3, there's rarely tonemapping involved for most content that is under 1000 nits peak brightness. The TV maps the brightness according to its internal curves.

Now I don't know exactly if HSTM affects shadow detail when the source nits are under the target nits, but I'd think it does not.

So essentially, for HDR displays, madVR is just useful to tonemap over 1000 nits down to the specified target nits, so that the TV can track PQ as usual.
And in these cases, it does better than just leaving the TV tonemap it on its own.

[chros]

Now I don't know exactly if HSTM affects shadow detail when the source nits are under the target nits, but I'd think it does not.
It does, that's what I reported here (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-224.html#post58683312).
I went through the usual 8 test files, and in around 5% there was a clear difference. Whether it's useful or not is another question :D

No offense (and I like the way you test things!) but that's also proves my point :D :
apart from some small testing no one did any proper testing so far

[quietvoid]

Yeah, my eyes aren't good enough to be testing small differences that HSTM causes.
Especially at a distance on a relatively small display. :)

[chros]

:) There are lot of settings that result in tons of combination, so probably that's the case :)

[quietvoid]

I've played with version 107b and don't see any shadows getting affected by HSTM when under 760 nits.
Only changing the HSTM strength from 0 to 50.
With high brightness demos, it darkens the "dark" areas to give more depth. In actual content, it does nothing when under 760 nits.

Also the saturation setting looks the same with all 3 options now, for some reason.

With these settings
https://i.ibb.co/YNJFwvw/v107b.png (https://ibb.co/YNJFwvw)

[chros]

I've played with version 107b and don't see any shadows getting affected by HSTM when under 760 nits.
Only changing the HSTM strength from 0 to 50.
With high brightness demos, it darkens the "dark" areas to give more depth. In actual content, it does nothing when under 760 nits.
Thanks, that's what I saw as well after watching 3 titles.
I'm not sure what it exactly does with titles below 760 nits. But for us to test it we definitely need way brighter real titles (e.g. The Meg and similar ones).

What do you think about the new HSTM params? :)

Btw, I have a small HTML-Js file as a remote control (as a complementary to this (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=175007)) for madvr (that can be used on any mobile/tablet) to easily switch between passtrough and madvr DTM (with the help of madvr profiles). (It only works with mpc-hc/be)
If you want I can upload it somewhere ...

[chros]

I just remembered that the C8 shows different 20 Point WB adjustments points when it receives 1000/4000 nits metadata.

I assumed a different WB value shown means that the TV uses a different tone mapping curve but I could be wrong. Looking at HDR white clipping pattern I can't detect a change when going from 760 to 761 in madVR even though that causes the TV to show a different WB value.
You were absolutely right: the 19. point values of WB have nothing to do with the used tone curve.
Actually the different 19. point values of WB are triggered by the following MDL (!) values:
- 1.: 669 (C8) , 669 (B8) : 100 - 760
- 2.: 696 (C8) , 692 (B8) : 761 - 2500
- 3.: 713 (C8) , 705 (B8) : 2501 - 10000

Honestly, I don't know what these are used for :)

I tested the PQ of my 65B8 with different metadata values (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-120.html#post58739264).

There are interesting things there:
- 3. : maxFALL: it seems that the TV doesn't use it at all *or* it's used by ABL algo(s)
- 4. a) : if maxCLL 10000 and MDL is large (>=4000), then PQ gets really weird :)
-- that's why the 10000 S&M demo looks like crap via passthrough!
- 4. b) : Something strange is happening with maxCLL at 501 nits (not below this value!) and it's like it tries to correct this with higher values
-- do you remember when I stated (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1882982#post1882982) that pixelshader mainly results in slightly brighter image with passthrough, but not (!) with titles that has smaller maxCLL? Now we know why :) :
-- the image gets brighter between 501 and (let's say 670), like with Guardians of the Galaxy (2014)

And these measurements make me think that which are the 3 tone curves exactly that people used to talk about regarding to LG Oleds. :)

Lastly, since now we are *sure* that 19. point values of WB have nothing to do with tone curves, take a look at point 6. :
- take out your meter from the closet and measure your peak brightness with 1% window (~700 with B8, it should be + ~200 higher with C8/E8)
- then measure diffferent PQ curves around the resulted value to see which tracks PQ/rolloff the best

[quietvoid]

I really can't tell any difference between the different HSTM settings/curves on demos.
There's just a difference between strength 0 and 50. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

So for actual content, I don't know if HSTM affects us high nits HDR users at all..

[chros]

I really can't tell any difference between the different HSTM settings/curves on demos.
There's just a difference between strength 0 and 50. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
:D I don't think so. I didn't have time to check them yet, maybe during the weekend, hopefully they will come up an agreement about this until then :)

So for actual content, I don't know if HSTM affects us high nits HDR users at all..
I don't even know whether the rest of the options affect us :D
E.g. what about the dynamic tuning value? (I use 50 for it).

[quietvoid]

I don't even know whether the rest of the options affect us :D
E.g. what about the dynamic tuning value? (I use 50 for it).
Yes, that one works for sure with high brightness scenes. You get a more contrasty image.
I used to have it at 100, but realized it lowered overall brightness a little too much so lowered to 75.

Last time I played with it was watching Pacific Rim, so that's on the top brightest titles. Not much difference with "normal" content.

[SamuriHL]

If a scene's brightness is below your real display nit, it shouldn't have any impact at all. It's only if there are elements in a scene that are above the real display nit that the tone mapping settings are being applied. So if you're not seeing much difference on "normal" content then that normal content may not be above your real display nits or not far above it.

[chros]

If a scene's brightness is below your real display nit, it shouldn't have any impact at all.
Are you talking about all of the settings or just dynamic tuning?

[chros]

I really can't tell any difference between the different HSTM settings/curves on demos.
There's just a difference between strength 0 and 50. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

So for actual content, I don't know if HSTM affects us high nits HDR users at all..
Try out these settings (v109):
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/50/13/BJbEn3YO_t.png (http://imgbox.com/BJbEn3YO)

- top row: Neo-XP
- middle: Manni
- bottom (selected): madshi's (from couple of days ago)

Try out with John Wick sample, e.g. @00:10 sec: madshi's is extremely strong compared to the other 2 :D

And "desaturate 1" option is working again, e.g. The Meg sample.

Let me know what you think.

[SamuriHL]

Are you talking about all of the settings or just dynamic tuning?

All, including dynamic tuning. The whole point of dynamic tone mapping is to only tone map what needs to be compressed and leave the rest alone. Static tone mapping is a whole other world.

[SamuriHL]

Try out these settings (v109):
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/50/13/BJbEn3YO_t.png (http://imgbox.com/BJbEn3YO)

- top row: Neo-XP
- middle: Manni
- bottom (selected): madshi's (from couple of days ago)

Try out with John Wick sample, e.g. @00:10 sec: madshi's is extremely strong compared to the other 2 :D

And "desaturate 1" option is working again, e.g. The Meg sample.

Let me know what you think.

I honestly can't wait til they revisit saturation. I'm with soulnight in that I believe somewhere between no desaturation and desaturation 1 exists a sweet spot.

[chros]

All, including dynamic tuning. The whole point of dynamic tone mapping is to only tone map what needs to be compressed and leave the rest alone. Static tone mapping is a whole other world.
Hm, you are right! :)
Although I hoped that's not the case :)
I did a little testing (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-250.html#post58767112) as well, read it through.
I attached there the settings I use for now, let me know guys if you dislike something in it.

I honestly can't wait til they revisit saturation. I'm with soulnight in that I believe somewhere between no desaturation and desaturation 1 exists a sweet spot.
Well, saturation setting doesn't do anything, again, with titles below 700 :)

Btw, did you guys measure your C8 and adjust your real peak nits setting? Or do you still use 760?

[SamuriHL]

Hm, you are right! :)

It happens from time to time. :D LMAO



Although I hoped that's not the case :)
I did a little testing (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-250.html#post58767112) as well, read it through.
I attached there the settings I use for now, let me know guys if you dislike something in it.


I'm still playing with the settings. Was hoping to get some time today to get some testing done but that didn't work out as planned. Those should be good, though.


Well, saturation setting doesn't do anything, again, with titles below 700 :)


Right, but, if there are elements in the frame that are above your real display nits, then the entire frame is processed. People tend to forget that part. For example, the tesseract in Infinity Wars. I can DEFINITELY see that being tone mapped as I mentioned to madshi. Even though the rest of the frame is well below 700 nits.


Btw, did you guys measure your C8 and adjust your real peak nits setting? Or do you still use 760?

I've been using 760. Time is not on my side these days. It's on my list of things to do.

[chros]

Right, but, if there are elements in the frame that are above your real display nits, then the entire frame is processed.
Yes, that's right, but I was talking about those titles/frames that are always below 700/760 nits.
Not to mention the final tonemapped nit value is modded by your settings (dynamic clipping, sky detection, etc.) so it can happen that even frames won't be modded if the resulting tonemapped nits is below 700/760.

I've been using 760. Time is not on my side these days. It's on my list of things to do.
:) It's "just" 30 mins, force yourself, you can dot it ... :)

[quietvoid]

I have not measured my C8, but 760 is consistently slightly brighter than 700 for demos, so I use that.

[tyguy]

I have a c9 and a geforce 2070 super on the way. Are there some good recommended settings for this tv with madvr? From what I gather reading this thread pc mode is a non starter due to color banding. I also play pc games, so I assume color banding issues will also be present in hdr games using pc mode? Is rgb full with tv set to hdmi black level of high and the input left as default the way to go for both gaming and mad vr usage?

[chros]

I have not measured my C8, but 760 is consistently slightly brighter than 700 for demos, so I use that.
Hmm, demos?
My point is I think you can go way higher, but I'm not sure without actual measurement.

I have a c9 and a geforce 2070 super on the way. Are there some good recommended settings for this tv with madvr?
Take a look at the recent attached settings (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-254.html#post58774750), and a bit of explanation (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-250.html#post58767112) about them.

From what I gather reading this thread pc mode is a non starter due to color banding.
Most people would tell this but I'm still using PC mode all the time (although I don't game anymore). :)
There's no perfect mode unfortunately, you have to choose which one you can live with.

Take a look at this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) if you haven't yet, I'm pretty sure the same is true for 2019 models. And if not, you have a testing guideline at least :)

Is rgb full with tv set to hdmi black level of high ... the way to go for ... mad vr usage?
Yes.

[chros]

Btw, Ted found a diag mode (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-120.html#post58775722) with 2017-2019 Oleds :)

[tyguy]

Hmm, demos?
My point is I think you can go way higher, but I'm not sure without actual measurement.


Take a look at the recent attached settings (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-254.html#post58774750), and a bit of explanation (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-250.html#post58767112) about them.


Most people would tell this but I'm still using PC mode all the time (although I don't game anymore). :)
There's no perfect mode unfortunately, you have to choose which one you can live with.

Take a look at this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) if you haven't yet, I'm pretty sure the same is true for 2019 models. And if not, you have a testing guideline at least :)


Yes.
Thanks for the advice. I was using passthrough with my current tv(samsung q6fn), but i'll try tone map using pixel shaders when my tv an card comes in. I take it I don't want to use dynamic tonemapping with hdr 10 content if we are going to be dialing in these settings manually?

[chros]

I take it I don't want to use dynamic tonemapping with hdr 10 content if we are going to be dialing in these settings manually?
I still use LG's DTM with it, but there are others who don't.

[SamuriHL]

:) It's "just" 30 mins, force yourself, you can dot it ... :)

I'll be measuring it this week. I got a new I1 Display Pro and Calman this week so I'll get to both recalibrate this thing and measure it. I'm not super familiar with Calman so I'll probably have to do it a couple times to figure everything out.

[SamuriHL]

That was fun, but, Calman Home for LG didn't allow me to measure my peak luminance. Sooo I still don't know what my peak lum is. I've asked in the AVS Calman Home for LG if there's a way to measure it. There has to be. Calibration definitely improved things for me though.

[SamuriHL]

There we go. My peak lum is 824 nits.

[j82k]

Anybody with a C8 who has the UHD Blu-Ray version of 'Maleficent' or 'The Lion King' and could check some scenes?

I'm getting some really strange colors in certain darker scenes with the C8. I think it's a saturation problem with cyan and I've seen this in a lot of movies. This isn't a pc or madvr problem as those scenes look fine on the GZ2000 and the problem also exists when playing the files directly form the C8s USB.

Some examples:
(left C8, right GZ2000)

The Lion King
https://i.imgur.com/Aarp1Jc.jpg
Basically the whole section in the hyena cave starting at 33 minutes looks weird on the C8. It's a mix of cyan and magenta.

The Lion King (01:26:17)
https://i.imgur.com/kH6Uobs.jpg
If you look closely at the Lion and Ape, small sections are cyan tinted while they shouldn't be. There is no such color shift on the Panasonic.

Maleficent (00:17:05)
https://i.imgur.com/yIRsWwH.jpg
The cyan colored highlights in Angelina Jolies face are way oversaturated and it looks really strange and wrong on the C8.


The camera exaggerates the color temperature differences between the two TVs somewhat but this cyan/magenta problem is visible with any picture preset, calibrated or not and only HDR seems to be affected. When tone mapping to SDR with madVR these scenes look fine.

[SamuriHL]

I don't have either of those movies on UHD. Lion King will be coming at some point once my daughter orders it. So unfortunately I can't check for you on that one.

[chros]

My peak lum is 824 nits.
Nice, ~120 nits plus compared to B8. Check with Calman or HFRC that which nits value in madvr produce the best PQ tracking.

I don't have either of those movies on UHD.
You don't need to: just check any movie with any scenes < 15 nits.

I'm getting some really strange colors in certain darker scenes with the C8. I think it's a saturation problem with cyan and I've seen this in a lot of movies.
...
this cyan/magenta problem is visible with any picture preset, calibrated or not and only HDR seems to be affected. When tone mapping to SDR with madVR these scenes look fine.
I checked with Maleficent frame on B8 (HDMI mode, PC mode, passthrough, madvr pixelshader: all look the same) and yes: that's what I always see as well in dark HDR scenes.

Haven't you noticed this before? Which firmware do you have on C8 currently?

the problem also exists when playing the files directly form the C8s USB.
So, what was the 2 test cases? Passthrough vs madvr pixelshader at 760 nits?

I thought it's the drawback of the OLED technology using HDR, but it's clearly not the case! That Panasonic is just beautiful! It's like watching normal mode vs PC mode! :D I think you can sell your C8 :D

Btw, which mode did you use on Panasonic? Normal or PC?

And congrats to your 3rd, seemingly perfect Panasonic GZ2000! Only if they do 24p judder free mode ... I wouldn't hesitate for a moment! :)

[j82k]

I checked with Maleficent frame on B8 (HDMI mode, PC mode, passthrough, madvr pixelshader: all look the same) and yes: that's what I always see as well in dark HDR scenes.

Haven't you noticed this before? Which firmware do you have on C8 currently?


So, what was the 2 test cases? Passthrough vs madvr pixelshader at 760 nits?

I thought it's the drawback of the OLED technology using HDR, but it's clearly not the case! That Panasonic is just beautiful! It's like watching normal mode vs PC mode! :D I think you can sell your C8 :D

Btw, which mode did you use on Panasonic? Normal or PC?


My C8 is on 05.10.35 but I already noticed this cyan/magenta problem in certain HDR scenes with 05.10.20.
I have no idea if this problem always existed and I just didn't notice or if it's a firmware messup from LG. Too bad we can't downgrade anymore...

Both TVs were using non-pc mode with HDR passthrough.
I think this is a BT.2020 problem. When I tonemap to SDR with madVR these scenes look much better on the C8 but if I use SDR with BT.2020 output they look as bad again.

[chros]

My C8 is on 05.10.35 but I already noticed this cyan/magenta problem in certain HDR scenes with 05.10.20.
...
I think this is a BT.2020 problem. When I tonemap to SDR with madVR these scenes look much better on the C8 but if I use SDR with BT.2020 output they look as bad again.
Now I understand what you meant, and I replicated the same thing on B8: SDR converted image looks much more natural (using ISF Bright room @140 nits in Wide gamut mode gamma 2.2, plus external 3dlut). And it's not firmware related, since I'm still on 4.10.25.
Nice find, again!

I always wondered whether we need the BT.2020 mode (small logo at the top on the info screen) using HDR, since we can reach close to DCI-P3 in Wide SDR mode as well.

And you know what? Remember when I told you that PC mode is fine with bright images but it's getting ugly with dark images? Probably it's the same problem, but exaggerated by PC mode.

So, the question is: is there any way to trigger HDR mode without enabling BT.2020 mode? This could solve our issue using madvr "output HDR" without introducing new ones :)

[SamuriHL]

Nice, ~120 nits plus compared to B8. Check with Calman or HFRC that which nits value in madvr produce the best PQ tracking.


It's on the list of things to do. I get the HDFury Integral 2 tomorrow so I can calibrate Dolby Vision for streaming content. I had to redo the HDR calibration and I'm now right around 800 nits. Still, it's not bad. I've left madvr at 760 for now to give myself a little breathing room but I'll see if I can raise it without causing problems and see where it rolls off. I'm still quite new to calibrating this TV so I'll likely revisit this a couple times. Right now I'm just using the lightning LUT option but when I get a few hours I'll do a point calibration and see if I can get it tighter. LMAO It's already insanely dialed in. Hell, even watching football in SDR is a huge improvement. Glad I invested in the hardware and software to get it done.

[chros]

Glad I invested in the hardware and software to get it done.
:) Nice to hear it, good job!

So, the question is: is there any way to trigger HDR mode without enabling BT.2020 mode?
What happens to the BT.2020 mode on the TV if you switch on the OS HDR button? (I can't try it, there's no HDR OS switch on Windows 10 1607 :) )

[janos666]

So, the question is: is there any way to trigger HDR mode without enabling BT.2020 mode?
There is but the color gamut is limited to Rec709. I have a bug with my AMD Ryzen+Vega notebook where Rec2020 fails to trigger in certain resolutions and it's immediately visible (colors are way under-saturated) but HDR still works (the full dynamic range is there).

I always wondered whether we need the BT.2020 mode (small logo at the top on the info screen) using HDR, since we can reach close to DCI-P3 in Wide SDR mode as well.
Yes because these are always Rec2020 colors. The P3 metadata merely informs you (and the display, in case it's interested) that the mastering display had P3 primaries (but the content can still have colors outside the P3 gamut). So, no, Rec709 metadata + Wide probably won't work (well, I never tried but it shouldn't, unless it works in some unexpected way).

It's like watching normal mode vs PC mode! :D I think you can sell your C8 :D
Exactly... At first glance I was sure he forgot the C8 in PC mode and/or wasn't yet aware that PC mode decreases the precision (which is much more visible in HDR10 mode).

It's on the list of things to do. I get the HDFury Integral 2 tomorrow so I can calibrate Dolby Vision for streaming content. I had to redo the HDR calibration and I'm now right around 800 nits. Still, it's not bad. I've left madvr at 760 for now to give myself a little breathing room but I'll see if I can raise it without causing problems and see where it rolls off.
Unless you can alter the peak brightness parameter (only possible on 2019 models), you should aim for 700 nit (decrease OLED Light if necessary) and set madVR to 700 nit (regardless if you changed the OLED Light or not and regardless of what you measure as real peak white because the internal processor assumes 700 nit). But DolbyVision if fine with the default OLED Light (unlike with HDR10, the uploaded file contains the real peak white data and it's taken into account).
And accept my honest condolences. The Fury is a b***. (You will probably spend an hour to get it working, more if you have USB/driver issues like I had. Oh, any I had to switch to Dolbyvision manually, CalMAN used incorrect HEX codes. HDR10 worked fine.)

Edit:
I see a little bit of magenta but nothing crazy and I can't capture it with a phone (55C8, 05.10.40 EU, Cinema mode, not calibrated, PC source 12bit Full RGB).

[SamuriHL]

Unless you can alter the peak brightness parameter (only possible on 2019 models), you should aim for 700 nit (decrease OLED Light if necessary) and set madVR to 700 nit (regardless if you changed the OLED Light or not and regardless of what you measure as real peak white because the internal processor assumes 700 nit). But DolbyVision if fine with the default OLED Light (unlike with HDR10, the uploaded file contains the real peak white data and it's taken into account).
And accept my honest condolences. The Fury is a b***. (You will probably spend an hour to get it working, more if you have USB/driver issues like I had. Oh, any I had to switch to Dolbyvision manually, CalMAN used incorrect HEX codes. HDR10 worked fine.)

I've been using 760 without ill effect so far. I can calibrate it for 700 and see what that looks like in comparison. Figures LG gimped HDR10 support on this thing. LOL

Oh goodie. I'm going to have a blast huh? Well, I wanted one for a few reasons so I will spend the time to get it connected and working. I wasn't planning on letting Calman set the metadata for DV anyway as I wasn't sure if they added support for the Integral 2 yet or not. Last article I saw on it said support was coming. You wouldn't happen to know the proper metadata offhand would you? This is what I found:

§ Paste (but don’t do anything for now) the follow HEX code into the CUSTOM HDR IF: field: 81:01:18:36:03:0c:00:20:01:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00 :00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00
§ Confirm the following code is in the CUSTOM AVI IF: field: 00:08:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00


Not sure if that's the incorrect values you're referring to?

[j82k]

I see a little bit of magenta but nothing crazy and I can't capture it with a phone (55C8, 05.10.40 EU, Cinema mode, not calibrated, PC source 12bit Full RGB).


That looks better than on my C8.
Now I'm wondering if this is a panel variance thing. My C8 is way too dark in the low end and the only way to solve this for HDR without losing true black is to increase 2P Low RGB. Maybe this has something to do with it.

In my case it's definitely not a PC problem as these scenes look similar played from USB or another playback device.

So you're on 05.10.40. I assume that's an engineering FW version?

[j82k]

Now I understand what you meant, and I replicated the same thing on B8: SDR converted image looks much more natural (using ISF Bright room @140 nits in Wide gamut mode gamma 2.2, plus external 3dlut). And it's not firmware related, since I'm still on 4.10.25.
Nice find, again!

I always wondered whether we need the BT.2020 mode (small logo at the top on the info screen) using HDR, since we can reach close to DCI-P3 in Wide SDR mode as well.

And you know what? Remember when I told you that PC mode is fine with bright images but it's getting ugly with dark images? Probably it's the same problem, but exaggerated by PC mode.

So, the question is: is there any way to trigger HDR mode without enabling BT.2020 mode? This could solve our issue using madvr "output HDR" without introducing new ones :)

What I've been doing the past weeks was to tone map to SDR, madVR set to DCI-P3, TV to wide. Also ModuleHDR in the service menu turned on which gives me like 550 nits SDR peak brightness with Oled/Contrast 100. Not sure how correct this is but I prefered that to HDR output even though it's 200 nits less.

[chros]

Now I'm wondering if this is a panel variance thing.
I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with panel variance: mine is a normal panel (the original one, meaning it hasn't been replaced), and I experience the same thing with B8. (And I know that @janos666 thinks that B8 is way worse in HDR than C8 :) )

So you're on 05.10.40. I assume that's an engineering FW version?
Yes, it is, he is a brave man! :D

What I've been doing the past weeks was to tone map to SDR, madVR set to DCI-P3, TV to wide. Also ModuleHDR in the service menu turned on which gives me like 550 nits SDR peak brightness with Oled/Contrast 100. Not sure how correct this is but I prefered that to HDR output even though it's 200 nits less.
:D Interesting! I have never tried this. @janos666 can tell more about its flaws.

I see a little bit of magenta but nothing crazy and I can't capture it with a phone (55C8, 05.10.40 EU, Cinema mode, not calibrated, PC source 12bit Full RGB).
Have you compared to SDR mode as well? Switch between e.g. passthrough and HDR2SDR pixelshader (not "output HDR"), it should be clearly visible. Pick a scene around 10 nits :)

There is but the color gamut is limited to Rec709.
I don't think so, only if Auto is selected for the gamut. But you can select Wide in Normal mode, and we can use Standard preset to get Wide gamut in PC mode as well. This should give us the native panel gamut, just as in SDR mode.

I have a bug with my AMD Ryzen+Vega notebook where Rec2020 fails to trigger in certain resolutions and it's immediately visible (colors are way under-saturated) but HDR still works (the full dynamic range is there).
Wow! That's really good news, thanks!

Yes because these are always Rec2020 colors. The P3 metadata merely informs you (and the display, in case it's interested) that the mastering display had P3 primaries (but the content can still have colors outside the P3 gamut). So, no, Rec709 metadata + Wide probably won't work (well, I never tried but it shouldn't, unless it works in some unexpected way).
I know what you mean, but I think it can work: since madvr does the gamut mapping (desaturate dropdown) even when "output HDR" is selected, then we don't need the broken LG BT.2020 gamut processing, instead we can set the display to its native gamut (Wide option).

I just asked madshi to add a switch for us (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-267.html#post58836744). If you like the idea then drop there a comment, he'll more likely implement it if more people ask for it :)

[janos666]

I've been using 760 without ill effect so far. I can calibrate it for 700 and see what that looks like in comparison. Figures LG gimped HDR10 support on this thing. LOL

It's not about clipping, banding or similar artifacts but accurate TRC tracking. The TV's processor does the tone-mapping with 700 nit peak in mind. If your panel is capable of and set to 800 nit then the whole curve has a positive offset (every color, even dark tones are more or less brighter than reference). madVR's mapping (when set to your real peak white but above 700 nit) won't correct that offset.
Another reason to set 700 nit in madVR is that the TV thinks the panel is 700 nit and thus this is the point where it should start doing hard-clip instead of roll-off and madVR theoretically sends this number as MDL=maxCLL (so your TV should do hard-clip at it's nominal peak with 700). Anything less and you waste the dynamic range of the hardware, more and your TV start doing roll-off.

Oh goodie. I'm going to have a blast huh? Well, I wanted one for a few reasons so I will spend the time to get it connected and working. I wasn't planning on letting Calman set the metadata for DV anyway as I wasn't sure if they added support for the Integral 2 yet or not. Last article I saw on it said support was coming. You wouldn't happen to know the proper metadata offhand would you? This is what I found:

§ Paste (but don’t do anything for now) the follow HEX code into the CUSTOM HDR IF: field: 81:01:18:36:03:0c:00:20:01:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00 :00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00
§ Confirm the following code is in the CUSTOM AVI IF: field: 00:08:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00:00

Well, actually, I have the original Integral (rev2) but I assume the HEX codes are universal. I forgot the Integral 2 has a new CP GUI, so probably needs specific CalMAN updates as well.
CalMAN sets what you quoted. I had to use these (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-87.html#post58597502) (only the AVI IF is different).

What I've been doing the past weeks was to tone map to SDR, madVR set to DCI-P3, TV to wide.
Yeah, that should work as far as SDR Wide is practically (almost) DCI-P3.
Also ModuleHDR in the service menu turned on which gives me like 550 nits SDR peak brightness with Oled/Contrast 100. Not sure how correct this is but I prefered that to HDR output even though it's 200 nits less.
Last time I checked (may be that wasn't on a C8 but a B8 or C7) ModuleHDR=ON will mess up the color accuracy of the SDR mode as the W starts to over-shine the RGB set and you get that increasingly less saturated "dome" at the top of the dynamic range (where the W can go higher but the R,G,B are already maxed out, so the panel can get brighter but won't deliver the correct color). This is different with Alpha7 and Alpha9 branded TVs. The A7 starts to de-saturate the colors at lower brightness (although I think this has nothing to with the processor but done by the panel driver where the RGB->WRGB magic happens, yet the Alpha branding still tells you which mode is utilized in HDR on the given model).
Thus, wouldn't set it to always ON (unless you really know what you are doing but CMS softwares don't like these non-additive color spaces, so it's hard, if not practically impossible, to create a 3DLUT correction for this). Always Off could be more useful than always On (but only on 2019 models or when yo want a 3DLUT correction).
I don't know why SDR 100/100 doesn't reach the HDR peak brightness with this ModuleHDR switch turned ON, I guess the OLED Light slider values are mapped to different lower level values in SDR (and SDR is clipped below actual 100%). Or may be it's clipped by some ABL (even on tiny windows) which behaves differently in SDR.

So you're on 05.10.40. I assume that's an engineering FW version?
Yes but I am sure it has nothing to do with this. I bet this issue spans through several model years, SoC revisions and firmware versions. It was always clearly visible in PC mode, thus it's probably always there for a varying degree.

Now I'm wondering if this is a panel variance thing. My C8 is way too dark in the low end and the only way to solve this for HDR without losing true black is to increase 2P Low RGB. Maybe this has something to do with it.
May be your panel has slightly more near-black banding and/or white balance fluctuations even with any and all kind of SoC processing turned off (e.g. put into calibration mode and fully reset). And any kind of SoC processing (except dithering or de-banding) only reduces the (perceived) precision, especially the user menu controls. It would be interesting if you looked at these scenes with the RGB Low/High controls at default (yeah, even the High because the user menu WP setting is not flawless either, you should use the EZ-ADJUST controls if you need to set this). And never touch the CMS in HDR!

[chros]

What I've been doing the past weeks was to tone map to SDR, madVR set to DCI-P3, TV to wide. Also ModuleHDR in the service menu turned on which gives me like 550 nits SDR peak brightness with Oled/Contrast 100. Not sure how correct this is but I prefered that to HDR output even though it's 200 nits less.

Last time I checked (may be that wasn't on a C8 but a B8 or C7) ModuleHDR=ON will mess up the color accuracy of the SDR mode as the W starts to over-shine the RGB set and you get that increasingly less saturated "dome" at the top of the dynamic range (where the W can go higher but the R,G,B are already maxed out, so the panel can get brighter but won't deliver the correct color). This is different with Alpha7 and Alpha9 branded TVs. The A7 starts to de-saturate the colors at lower brightness ... .
Thus, wouldn't set it to always ON (unless you really know what you are doing but CMS softwares don't like these non-additive color spaces, so it's hard, if not practically impossible, to create a 3DLUT correction for this). Always Off could be more useful than always On (but only on 2019 models or when yo want a 3DLUT correction).

I just quickly tested it (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-122.html#post58836930): SDR gamma tracking is screwed up completely, and we haven't even talked about color accuracy yet :)

And as @janos666 said, I don't think that even a 3dlut can correct that amount of panel instability (although can moderate the issue). (I just quickly enabled my existing SDR gamma 2.2 3dlut as well to see the effect.)
Otherwise it didn't look that bad.

Anyway, I hope madshi will implement that checkbox, so we can try it out.

[janos666]

Have you compared to SDR mode as well? Switch between e.g. passthrough and HDR2SDR pixelshader (not "output HDR"), it should be clearly visible. Pick a scene around 10 nits :)
I tried but all colors on these images look significantly different to start with, so it's not that easy to guess the truth. j82k's Panasonic images show some magenta as well, just a lot less...

I don't think so, only if Auto is selected for the gamut. But you can select Wide in Normal mode, and we can use Standard preset to get Wide gamut in PC mode as well. This should give us the native panel gamut, just as in SDR mode.
The Color Gamut presets work differently in SDR and HDR. In SDR Wide=Native. In HDR Auto is supposed to yield correct colors but Extended and Wide "boost" the saturation (more vibrant colors than reference, if possible within the Native boundaries, clipped otherwise).
If HDR Wide was Native then colors would look under-saturated since the content is Rec2020 (this would be the opposite of watching Rec709 content in SDR Wide where the content gamut is smaller and thus it appears over-saturated --- in this case the content gamut is bigger, so...).
It's difficult to guess what really happens in HDR mode. We have a static 3DLUT in use (which could do the Rec2020->Native mapping) but colors are still limited to Rec709 when we don't send the Rec2020 metadata, so either some math-based processing is involved on top of the 3DLUT or the TV switches to a different 3DUT (currently non-programmable factory one with Rec709->Native mapping). Hmm... Some experimentation could answer this...
We know that colors look under-saturated in HDR with a neutral 3DLUT (if you exit calibration mode after a DDC reset), so I guess the 3DLUT is Rec2020->Native, not P3->Native and thus there is no Rec2020->P3 real-time math. So, in case of no Rec2020 metadata, we either have the Rec2020->Native 3DLUT + Rec709 math or the TV switches to a non-programmable factory Rec709->Native 3DLUT.
Anyways... if you want Native gamut in HDR, you have to reset the 3DLUT via DDC and keep the Rec2020 metadata in the signal. And then convert externally from Rec2020 to P3 (but not to Rec709).

Or may be... just may be... HDR Wide could be Native with no Rec2020 matadata in the signal. (I haven't though about that. Sorry.) But you have to check if that's the case. I somehow doubt this.

[j82k]

I just quickly tested it (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-122.html#post58836930): SDR gamma tracking is screwed up completely, and we haven't even talked about color accuracy yet :)


Interesting, I'm pretty sure when I tested this HDR peak brightness didn't increase with HDR Module On. So the B8 apparently behaves differently.

Also for some reason the sports preset is significantly brighter than all the other presets with HDR Module On,even with color temperature set to W50. Too bad it's such a crappy preset so that's useless.

j82k's Panasonic images show some magenta as well, just a lot less...
.

Yes I think this is more of a saturation problem and not related with the pc-mode banding...

[janos666]

I came back with a few more images (with a better camera this time): HDR passthrough vs. madVR SDR conversion

https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019635.jpg https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019636.jpg
https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019633.jpg https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019634.jpg
https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019631.jpg https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019632.jpg

Yes I think this is more of a saturation problem and not related with the pc-mode banding...
Banding can cause saturation errors. It means you get the same amount of a color component across a range of input values. That means sometimes you will have way too much or way too little of a component if it's severe enough. The effect is not limited to the gray scale (where it messes up the white balance) but affects random mixed colors as well. And in this case, we also have the W-magic to make it even more difficult.
But it could be something else, of course. May be this happens around the edge of the native gamut where the processor tries to clip to the closest color. But "closest" could mean a lot of things, depending on the color space and logic. It's not necessarily closest perceptually for humans.

[j82k]

Just did a quick comparison, I think on my C8 the difference is more significant.

Passthrough:
https://i.imgur.com/ZqWik53.jpg

HDRtoSDR (madVR set to DCI-P3, TV Wide)
https://i.imgur.com/bQ2mBHA.jpg

The HDRtoSDR picture looks much better and closer to what it looks like on the Panasonic.

It looks a bit exaggerated on the photo but to remove the oversaturated cyan in passthough mode I would have to lower color to like 30 or so and that of course would mess up brighter scenes. And like I said before, playing the file from the TVs USB looks similar, so not a pc problem...

[VBB]

So guys, I've been following the conversation, and I still don't understand why forcing BT.2020 via madVR is necessary with the OLEDs.

My C7 uses non-PC mode set to WIDE for SDR, AUTO for HDR. I have a 3D LUT for SDR in every slot in madVR (I know that's not necessary). I currently don't use tone-mapping, and HDR in madVR is set to pass-through.

Am I missing something in this scenario by NOT having the "force BT.2020" option checked? If the TV is already set to its widest gamut, what difference would it make?

[huhn]

HDR passthrough automatically triggers a kind of send BT 2020 at the end device because it know the image has a gamut up to bt 2020.

if you tone map then there is a good reason to use BT 2020 and with projector it's kind of a needed function.

[SamuriHL]

More specifically if you tone map without the output HDR option enabled. If you do use it there's no need to enable the send bt.2020 option and in fact you shouldn't if you view any rec.709 content else it gets sent as bt.2020.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[janos666]

I managed to set up the HDR10 Game mode with a neutral 1DLUT (started with full DDC reset) and a 3DLUT created with DisplayCAL (33 linear gray steps + R,G,B at 50% [safely below the RGB clipping point around 66%], Rec2020 + gamma 2.2 targets and a shaper+matrix profile).
Result: zero magenta artifacts in Lion King (the CalMAN 1D+3D LUT calibrated Technicolor profile has the most of it) and no under-saturation either (the factory Cinema mode has minimal magenta artifacts but it often shows grays instead of blues on those areas).
But Jolie's face is even further from the SDR conversion results (same camera settings but I held it in my hand this time instead of restoring the original position with the tripod and all...):

https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019642.jpg

https://prohardver.hu/dl/upc/2019-11/35956_p1019641_3.jpg

However, this was my very first attempt with DisplayCAL, so some tweaking of the test chart could improve things.

[SamuriHL]

So far no luck in getting the Integral2 to work with DV. It switches the mode to DV but black screen only and I have to reset the EDID to get it back. There can be a whole myriad of reasons as to why this isn't working unfortunately. SIGH

[SamuriHL]

The ingegral2 is starting to massively piss me off. It's broken my ability to do RGB 8 bit FULL on my HTPC. It turns the screen completely purple. WTF?! Setting it to limited is fine. If I take the Integral2 out of the mix, it's fine. It's making me very very irritable. Not to mention I can't get the goddamn thing to enable DV which is the big reason I bought it. Fix every HDMI issue...guaranteed? Um, RIGHT!!!!!!!! I'm really irritated now.

EDIT: Ok I fixed the RGB 8 bit FULL issue. This device is TOUCHY. It and I are going to have to get acquainted slowly. It's very powerful but good lord. Still don't have DV working properly. I'd like to get that done so I can calibrate it. It needs to be done before Friday.

[janos666]

So far no luck in getting the Integral2 to work with DV. It switches the mode to DV but black screen only and I have to reset the EDID to get it back. There can be a whole myriad of reasons as to why this isn't working unfortunately. SIGH

Try setting all hardware dip switches to the middle position (software controlled), then in the GUI software, set HDCP to 1.4 (wasn't necessary for me), Audio to Jack for HDR10 and HDMI for DolbyVision (this is how it worked for me on the old Integral 1), DolbyVision is fine with most EDID settings (fairly high-bw/spec) but HDR10 needs the Default (or similarly low-bw/spec).
Regardless of this injection thing, most of the high-bandwidth, high-spec EDIDs cause issues at high pixel clocks (high res, high refresh rate) with my Mobile Vega 8 (notebook HDMI output) but work fine with my desktop GTX1070.
I ended up using 1080p24 for DV and 2160p30 for HDR10 (couldn't get any other res working with DV and interestingly 1080p24 doesn't work with HDR10 injection, crazy...). Some other resolutions cause black screen or fail to register Rec2020, etc. But most of these issues are related to the AMD GPU. Most things work flawlessly with an nVidia card (even things which shouldn't work according to manual).
Oh, and update the firmware unless you are already at the latest. And try the DV AVI IF I linked a few days ago (keep in mind that these are for given display modes, like 1080p24 RGB and won't work with other formats).

[chros]

Just did a quick comparison, I think on my C8 the difference is more significant.
...
The HDRtoSDR picture looks much better and closer to what it looks like on the Panasonic.

It looks a bit exaggerated on the photo but to remove the oversaturated cyan in passthough mode I would have to lower color to like 30 or so and that of course would mess up brighter scenes.
Same here with the B8.

I managed to set up the HDR10 Game mode with a neutral 1DLUT (started with full DDC reset) and a 3DLUT created with DisplayCAL (33 linear gray steps + R,G,B at 50% [safely below the RGB clipping point around 66%], Rec2020 + gamma 2.2 targets and a shaper+matrix profile).
Result: zero magenta artifacts in Lion King (the CalMAN 1D+3D LUT calibrated Technicolor profile has the most of it) and no under-saturation either (the factory Cinema mode has minimal magenta artifacts but it often shows grays instead of blues on those areas).
But Jolie's face is even further from the SDR conversion results (same camera settings but I held it in my hand this time instead of restoring the original position with the tripod and all...)
Thanks for testing it!
So do you say that is better now or "just" different? Could you clearly see the issue in person in uncalibrated mode? Honestly, I could barely see the issue on your original screenshots, but here the difference is big (= clearly visible). :)

I just tried to explain madshi (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-269.html#post58842352) what needs to be done if it makes sense at all.

And here is the result of recent HSTM experience (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-269.html#post58842414). :)

[SamuriHL]

Try setting all hardware dip switches to the middle position (software controlled), then in the GUI software, set HDCP to 1.4 (wasn't necessary for me), Audio to Jack for HDR10 and HDMI for DolbyVision (this is how it worked for me on the old Integral 1), DolbyVision is fine with most EDID settings (fairly high-bw/spec) but HDR10 needs the Default (or similarly low-bw/spec).
Regardless of this injection thing, most of the high-bandwidth, high-spec EDIDs cause issues at high pixel clocks (high res, high refresh rate) with my Mobile Vega 8 (notebook HDMI output) but work fine with my desktop GTX1070.
I ended up using 1080p24 for DV and 2160p30 for HDR10 (couldn't get any other res working with DV and interestingly 1080p24 doesn't work with HDR10 injection, crazy...). Some other resolutions cause black screen or fail to register Rec2020, etc. But most of these issues are related to the AMD GPU. Most things work flawlessly with an nVidia card (even things which shouldn't work according to manual).
Oh, and update the firmware unless you are already at the latest. And try the DV AVI IF I linked a few days ago (keep in mind that these are for given display modes, like 1080p24 RGB and won't work with other formats).Yeah I read the link you gave very carefully and set up 1080/24 with no windows scaling (set to 100%). Could not get dv to show up. I didn't try hdcp 1.4 so I'll try that. I factory reset the tv list night so I still need to redo HDR. I got sdr rec709 dialed in very nicely. And yes on the latest firmware as well. Not sure I had all the switches set to the middle. Maybe that's part of the issue too. Finicky device. Doing this on my rtx 2070. Thanks for the help!!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[janos666]

Thanks for testing it!
So do you say that is better now or "just" different? Could you clearly see the issue in person in uncalibrated mode? Honestly, I could barely see the issue on your original screenshots, but here the difference is big (= clearly visible). :)

On the Lion Kind images, I mostly see (in person) a little de-saturation (some blue shades turn into gray) and minimal magenta (I really have to look for it) in factory Cinema and a little bit of meganta error in CalMAN 1D+3D LUT calibrated Technicolor (I don't have to concentrate and stare at it but it's not too bad), zero issues in DisplayCAL 3D LUT (+ not factory but cleared, neutral 1DLUT) calibrated Game mode (absolutely no sign of any mageta, the entire scene is deep blue and there is no grayish de-saturation on the shadows either, it goes from blue to black where there is no bright rock).

I tried to re-fine the DisplayCAL method todays (using a bigger patch set) but realized that CalMAN expects an AutoDesk/Kodak 3DLUT with an actual 16-255 range, so the DisplayCAL LUT either clips the upper end (significantly reduces the peak white) or crushes the blacks (the first one wasn't so obvious at first). This method would require LS DeviceControl...

My guess is that we should see zero magenta during that Lion King hyena scene and it's a human-subjective error in the CMS which creates the 3DLUT (factory one included) or an inaccuracy of the TV's processing (the 1DLUT and/or the user menu WB/gamma controls) similar to the more prominent magenta banding in PC mode.
I remember having similar issues with yCMS (a software which was put together by a member of this forum to create 3DLUTs for madVR before it was discontinued in favor of the more established ArgyllCMS).
When the content has colors very close to or out of the display gamut, it's not obvious what's the human-perceptually closest available color to use instead. Close proximity is a spear segment in a cube and what's equidistant in an YXZ space isn't necessarily so in some other color space like Jab. So, this might looks mathematically closest in a certain space to some algo but subjectively a human might prefers to see yellowish compromise rather than purplish compromise, etc. There is no absolute objective perfect solution for this. I think ArgyllCMS uses Jab or Dab (or something like that) space to make these kinds of clipping decisions. CalMAN might use another working color space (as well as whatever CSM is used for the factory LUT).

And the de-saturation with the factory LUT could actually be intentional. Some calibration guides suggest doing this on purpose to better match the OLED screens to the "standard" LCD colors (where you have no real black and the gray "background noise" de-saturates dark colors). But, of course, this could be a random fault in the factory state, especially after all those "macro block" fixes which altered the near-black dithering and distorted the factory calibrations for some degree.

[SamuriHL]

Ok, I got HDR recalibrated. That was a chore. LOL You are 100% right about NOT going above 700 nits on these panels. I watched it build my curve and saw what it was doing to everything above 700. Um, no. Just no. LOL I set madvr for 700 and there is definitely a difference. However, the stupid factory reset turned my dynamic tone mapping back on which explains why it had some trouble calibrating the mid-range of the greyscale. I will have to do it one more time with that turned off cause I do not like the LG DTM. Nonetheless, the picture quality with neo-xp's latest curve and this latest recalibration is absolutely freaking outstanding.

I'll get to Dolby Vision again tomorrow. Or at least make another attempt. I got some longer USB cables coming which will help me not have to keep rearranging my living room in order to setup a calibration session.

[janos666]

However, the stupid factory reset turned my dynamic tone mapping back on which explains why it had some trouble calibrating the mid-range of the greyscale. I will have to do it one more time with that turned off cause I do not like the LG DTM.

I think DTM is a no-op in calibration mode since the entire HDR tone mapping is bypassed. And I think the calibration would have failed (with an error) or would look unacceptable in case it was indeed active.
But it does effect the validation (after you exit from calibration mode).

I don't like DTM either. I even made comparison images which show that DolbyVision and HDR10 look much closer to each other than DV and HDR+DTM. Most of the time, DTM simply makes everything brighter (especially dark scenes).

I'll get to Dolby Vision again tomorrow. Or at least make another attempt. I got some longer USB cables coming which will help me not have to keep rearranging my living room in order to setup a calibration session.

If you need mental support for the task, just keep in mind that HDR10 and DV need the exact same 1DLUT but CalMAN won't allow you to copy it. :D

[SamuriHL]

I think DTM is a no-op in calibration mode since the entire HDR tone mapping is bypassed. And I think the calibration would have failed (with an error) or would look unacceptable in case it was indeed active.
But it does effect the validation (after you exit from calibration mode).

I don't like DTM either. I even made comparison images which show that DolbyVision and HDR10 look much closer to each other than DV and HDR+DTM. Most of the time, DTM simply makes everything brighter (especially dark scenes).


Ah kuel that makes sense and is nice. I shut it off and ran through a couple of my favorite test videos and it looks correct. Saves me the hassle of running through calibration again. I agree that DV and HDR (tone mapped with madvr, of course) look very close. I don't worry about DV on UHD discs anymore. But for streaming it absolutely makes a difference for this tv. And I want it dialed in.


If you need mental support for the task, just keep in mind that HDR10 and DV need the exact same 1DLUT but CalMAN won't allow you to copy it. :D

Oh that just stung! :D It created a really nice one for HDR. Oh well. Let's see it do it again. LMAO

[janos666]

I agree that DV and HDR (tone mapped with madvr, of course) look very close. I don't worry about DV on UHD discs anymore. But for streaming it absolutely makes a difference for this tv. And I want it dialed in.

It looks very close with pass-though when the content is min(MDL,maxCLL)<1000 (especially when it's <=700) and not a huge difference with ~4000, the only problem is 10000 nit content (video games which set no sane numbers) and even that is less of an issue with 2018 models than it was on 2017 ones (those really liked to dim the image with games or even 4000 nit movies, especially that they used to look at MDL and not maxCLL - I am not sure if that changed with firmware updates on pre-2018 models by now).

Oh that just stung! :D It created a really nice one for HDR. Oh well. Let's see it do it again. LMAO

Well, CalMAN gives us the 1DLUT in a CSV file after DV calibration, so we could theoretically copy that to HDR10 with DeviceControl after some external formatting.

[SamuriHL]

That's true I suppose. The whole thing is moot at the moment as no matter what I do I can't get it into dv with anything but a black screen. I'm going to post some screen shots later off my integral 2 gui and see if you can see what I'm doing wrong. No matter what I try I just get a black screen. Sigh.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

I think DTM is a no-op in calibration mode
Yep, it needs to be turned off during calibration/verification.

The Color Gamut presets work differently in SDR and HDR. In SDR Wide=Native. In HDR Auto is supposed to yield correct colors but Extended and Wide "boost" the saturation (more vibrant colors than reference, if possible within the Native boundaries, clipped otherwise).
If HDR Wide was Native then colors would look under-saturated since the content is Rec2020 (this would be the opposite of watching Rec709 content in SDR Wide where the content gamut is smaller and thus it appears over-saturated --- in this case the content gamut is bigger, so...).
...
We know that colors look under-saturated in HDR with a neutral 3DLUT (if you exit calibration mode after a DDC reset), so I guess the 3DLUT is Rec2020->Native, not P3->Native and thus there is no Rec2020->P3 real-time math. So, in case of no Rec2020 metadata, we either have the Rec2020->Native 3DLUT + Rec709 math or the TV switches to a non-programmable factory Rec709->Native 3DLUT.
Anyways... if you want Native gamut in HDR, you have to reset the 3DLUT via DDC and keep the Rec2020 metadata in the signal. And then convert externally from Rec2020 to P3 (but not to Rec709).

Or may be... just may be... HDR Wide could be Native with no Rec2020 matadata in the signal. (I haven't though about that. Sorry.) But you have to check if that's the case. I somehow doubt this.
Interesting thoughts, thanks, maybe/probably you are right. But still, it would be nice to try it.

this could be a random fault in the factory state, especially after all those "macro block" fixes which altered the near-black dithering and distorted the factory calibrations for some degree.
Note that I'm still on 4.10.25 (~ 4.10.15 on C8) and that's way before the macroblocking issue fixes.

On the Lion Kind images, I mostly see (in person) a little de-saturation (some blue shades turn into gray) and minimal magenta (I really have to look for it) in factory Cinema and a little bit of meganta error in CalMAN 1D+3D LUT calibrated Technicolor (I don't have to concentrate and stare at it but it's not too bad), zero issues in DisplayCAL 3D LUT (+ not factory but cleared, neutral 1DLUT) calibrated Game mode (absolutely no sign of any mageta, the entire scene is deep blue and there is no grayish de-saturation on the shadows either, it goes from blue to black where there is no bright rock).
Hmm, so do you say it's a calibration issue?

I tried to re-fine the DisplayCAL method todays (using a bigger patch set) but realized that CalMAN expects an AutoDesk/Kodak 3DLUT with an actual 16-255 range, so the DisplayCAL LUT either clips the upper end (significantly reduces the peak white) or crushes the blacks (the first one wasn't so obvious at first). This method would require LS DeviceControl...
Someone stated here (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/21086/) that DeviceControl no longer needs LS license.

When the content has colors very close to or out of the display gamut, it's not obvious what's the human-perceptually closest available color to use instead.
Hmm... :) If you find out how to experiment with this *without* Calman (only using free utils), don't hesitate to let us know :) Thanks!

[janos666]

Yep, it needs to be turned off during calibration/verification.

By no-op, I mean it doesn't do anything when you activate the Calibration (bypass/passthrough) mode with the DDC control. So, SamuriHL doesn't have to repeat the calibration process.
It has to be turned Off for the final validation though (after you exit Calibration mode via DDC control).

Note that I'm still on 4.10.25 (~ 4.10.15 on C8) and that's way before the macroblocking issue fixes.

Yes, I was referring to the gray under-saturation on my particular unit.

Hmm, so do you say it's a calibration issue?

It's just an idea because I remember several software CMS turning blue into purple in clipping scenarios.

Someone stated here (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/21086/) that DeviceControl no longer needs LS license.

I think he mistakes the 2019 PQ curve parameter templates with the generic DDC ones. Ted's site states that full DDC templates need an active LS license (and online activation, etc).

[SamuriHL]

https://i.ibb.co/N6VKqRf/integral2-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/svmq47c)
https://i.ibb.co/n6kx0By/integral2-2.jpg (https://ibb.co/bQdc3FV)
https://i.ibb.co/LkRgPcm/integral2-3.jpg (https://ibb.co/K0hsGfd)

That's my interface to the Integral 2. It's not hooked up in those pictures but I'm wondering what options I need to set and where to get DV to work. Any help?

[janos666]

I'm getting some really strange colors in certain darker scenes with the C8.

Could you please check if the magenta error is present in a complete factory mode (with all enhancers and dynamic tingies turned OFF, sharpness at 0, etc, but no LUT programming [not even a reset but factory LUT] and zero 2p/20p or CMS adjustments, default brightness/contrast), in an accurate mode (Cinema, Techni, Game)?

That's my interface to the Integral 2. It's not hooked up in those pictures but I'm wondering what options I need to set and where to get DV to work. Any help?

Sorry but the Integral 1 is somewhat different (both hardware and software). But try the fixed EDID and supply the HEX codes manually (don't use the HDR10 metadata settings helper). Try sending the codes without ticking anything ("Enable custom HDR" included) first, then tick that box for testing (I don't have to tick my equivalent, just hit Send). These were my experimental findings and you can ask for help in this topic (the HDFury rep. is helpful): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2171745-hdfury-integral-136.html#post58780576

[SamuriHL]

Sorry but the Integral 1 is somewhat different (both hardware and software). But try the fixed EDID and supply the HEX codes manually (don't use the HDR10 metadata settings helper). Try sending the codes without ticking anything ("Enable custom HDR" included) first, then tick that box for testing (I don't have to tick my equivalent, just hit Send). These were my experimental findings and you can ask for help in this topic (the HDFury rep. is helpful): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2171745-hdfury-integral-136.html#post58780576

Those are all the things I've tried already. I hope this isn't a case of it simply not working on the integral 2! That would make me really unhappy. I'll post over there and see if they have some thoughts.

[janos666]

Those are all the things I've tried already. I hope this isn't a case of it simply not working on the integral 2! That would make me really unhappy. I'll post over there and see if they have some thoughts.

I think it should work more easily (with less config constrains and quirks) but it's also a new product, so there is less information (especially from users in real-life scenarios) and probably more bugs, so...

[SamuriHL]

I think it should work more easily (with less config constrains and quirks) but it's also a new product, so there is less information (especially from users in real-life scenarios) and probably more bugs, so...

The manual claims you just set the DV Force Metadata checkbox in auto and it should work. That so far has not been the case for me. Sadly. I'm on the latest firmware, latest GUI and it's just not working. Which sucks. That's one of the big reasons I decided to buy one. I have other uses for it but that's why I decided to get it now rather than wait.

[janos666]

The manual claims you just set the DV Force Metadata checkbox in auto and it should work. That so far has not been the case for me. Sadly. I'm on the latest firmware, latest GUI and it's just not working. Which sucks. That's one of the big reasons I decided to buy one. I have other uses for it but that's why I decided to get it now rather than wait.

Then may be use that checkbox and try other resolutions/refreshrates?
I see no reason why I don't get Rec2020 with 1080p24 but do get it with 2160p30. Or why 2160p60 doesn't work at all with AMD... So, experiment and ask around...

[SamuriHL]

Then may be use that checkbox and try other resolutions/refreshrates?
I see no reason why I don't get Rec2020 with 1080p24 but do get it with 2160p30. Or why 2160p60 doesn't work at all with AMD... So, experiment and ask around...

Trust me, I went through all the resolution/refresh rate combinations I could think of and I couldn't get it to work. I asked in the thread you sent me to for the HD Fury and no answer. I also asked in the Calman for LG thread and no answer. So at this point it just seems like I'm SOL. I can keep trying but it doesn't seem to want to work. My SHIELD and UB820 pass through DV just fine so I know DV is working for devices that support it. I've tried capturing the EDID info from that and passing that using the res they set...nada. I'm at a loss on this. And it's frustrating as hell.

[SamuriHL]

Incidentally, I don't think LG DTM is a noop in calibration mode, unfortunately. I was curious so I ran another calibration with it off. And that area that it struggled with yesterday within the curve was almost dead on. I'm of the opinion that the stupid thing should be permanently disabled. I know some of you like it, but, man it REALLY screws with the middle of the curve...whether it needs to or not.

[SamuriHL]

BAHAHAHA, you are a mad genius, sir. :D I took my 3dlut from my last HDR calibration, went into Calman and reset the Dolby Vision Home Cinema profile. And then I loaded the 3dlut from my HDR calibration. Now, the beauty of what I did next is that I can cheat to compare the two. :D I have the Spears and Munsil UHD demo disc and a UB820. :) I played the Dolby Vision 10k nit version on the UB820 and then immediately ran the HDR 10k nit version in tonemapped madvr. The results are strikingly similar. LOL What an absolutely gorgeous picture this is now. I like calibration! :D That'll suffice for now. Obviously I want to solve the DV metadata issue with the fury but for now I'm pleased with the result.

[j82k]

Could you please check if the magenta error is present in a complete factory mode (with all enhancers and dynamic tingies turned OFF, sharpness at 0, etc, but no LUT programming [not even a reset but factory LUT] and zero 2p/20p or CMS adjustments, default brightness/contrast), in an accurate mode (Cinema, Techni, Game)?


The C8 is currently sitting in the corner (waiting for its destiny :devil:) and I don't want to set it up again right now.

But when I updated to 05.10.35 I did a factory reset and tried these scenes with default technicolor, cinema and cinema home presets (just dynamic tone mapping turned off) and the issues with cyan/magenta were still there.
By the way the pics I posted just had 2P WB adjustments made via service menu, everything else was default, no CMS and no 20P adjustments...

[SamuriHL]

The C8 is currently sitting in the corner (waiting for its destiny :devil:) and I don't want to set it up again right now.

But when I updated to 05.10.35 I did a factory reset and tried these scenes with default technicolor, cinema and cinema home presets (just dynamic tone mapping turned off) and the issues with cyan/magenta were still there.
By the way the pics I posted just had 2P WB adjustments made via service menu, everything else was default, no CMS and no 20P adjustments...

I'd HAPPILY get rid of the C8 if Panasonic would smarten up and start selling to me again. I *LOVE* my Panny plasma and would LOVE a Panny OLED with DV and HDR10+. What a dream that is. Unfortunately they decided the tv market over here sucks. They're not wrong but it still stings.

[chros]

By no-op, I mean it doesn't do anything when you activate the Calibration (bypass/passthrough) mode with the DDC control.
Oh, I misunderstood it, thanks.

I think he mistakes the 2019 PQ curve parameter templates with the generic DDC ones. Ted's site states that full DDC templates need an active LS license (and online activation, etc).
Yes, you are right (https://www.displaycalibrations.com/lg_templates_for_device_control.html), the License is still required.

The C8 is currently sitting in the corner (waiting for its destiny :devil:) and I don't want to set it up again right now.
:D Good choice!
Why didn't you go for the cheaper models, e.g. gz950? (SoC should be the same, note that I don't know anything about Panasonic OLEDs)

If you'll have the time and in the mood, can you test PC mode thoroughly with the Panasonic and gather up the result in a post like this (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836)? Thanks!

[j82k]

Why didn't you go for the cheaper models, e.g. gz950? (SoC should be the same, note that I don't know anything about Panasonic OLEDs)


There are a few reasons:

-The GZ2000 apparently has some custom cooling solution, which is basically just a metal plate attached directly to the backplane I think. This allows it to clear temporary image retention much faster than standard Oled panels, there are youtube videos about this. I think this might make it more stable for 3D Lut profiling and maybe it also somewhat increases panel lifetime.

- The build quality is better, the panel is much stiffer and thicker than the standard Oled panels. I'm using a rollable TV stand and often roll it around and have it forward tilted when I want to watch from bed. The C8 panel is very wobbly in comparison. Also this is my first Oled that doesn't have a slightly bent panel, none of the LG's I had were perfectly straight....

- I didn't pay anywhere close to MSRP, it was only slightly above what my C8 cost.

- It is also a bit brighter than the lower range GZ TVs, I don't care too much about this but why not...



If you'll have the time and in the mood, can you test PC mode thoroughly with the Panasonic and gather up the result in a post like this (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836)? Thanks!

Yeah not sure if I even want to use pure direct mode. I got used to having intelligent frame creation turned on to a low value. It's not perfect but I consider it usable while LGs TrueMotion is not. :)
Also as you know there is 3:2 pulldown so I would have to use 60Hz and enable madVRs smooth motion and this for some reason causes very noticeable flicker on scrolling credits when watching HDR movies.
But maybe some time when I feel like it I'm gonna test it more thoroughly..

[huhn]

it can't do 23p what more do you need to know about the PC mode?

if i would tell you to what my current pana LCD dies to you may die from the impact of the facepalm.

[tyguy]

Are you guys using custom mode to deal with the repeated frames or are most people using 60 hz output plus smoothmotion? Is the c9 plus an nvidia card capable of setting up a custom refresh rate that is more in sync with the audio clock to remove repeated frames?

[iSeries]

With my C8 and nvidia 1050ti I was able to get an excellent custom res for 24p but I find motion with 60hz plus smooth motion to be better so I stick with that for everything. Plus additional benefits such as no flicker due to refresh rate changes, no audio sync issues, no worry about dropped frames etc. If the C9 is like the C8, you will have some fun disabling Real Cinema in HDR mode though.

[tyguy]

With my C8 and nvidia 1050ti I was able to get an excellent custom res for 24p but I find motion with 60hz plus smooth motion to be better so I stick with that for everything. Plus additional benefits such as no flicker due to refresh rate changes, no audio sync issues, no worry about dropped frames etc. If the C9 is like the C8, you will have some fun disabling Real Cinema in HDR mode though.


You need to disable real cinema mode for 60hz content? According to rtings it’s fine to run it for both 24 hz and 60hz.

[VBB]

Yes, most definitely. Rtings doesn't know about madVR's smooth motion ;)

[tyguy]

Yes, most definitely. Rtings doesn't know about madVR's smooth motion ;)SO real cinema needs to be off for 60hz? Do you just not watch hdr content in madvr or do you use custom modes?

[iSeries]

Real Cinema only needs to be disabled if you are using smooth motion.

[VBB]

SO real cinema needs to be off for 60hz? Do you just not watch hdr content in madvr or do you use custom modes?

Yes, you want to disable Real Cinema for both SDR and HDR. This is easily done for SDR, but for HDR you'll have to trick the the TV, because the option is grayed out by default. It took a few tries, but I was able to do it by pulling up the Real Cinema option while in SDR mode, and then starting something in HDR. For a split second, I was able to change the option to OFF.

I watch HDR in madVR, and I do not use custom modes. The advantage of using Smooth Motion with the OLEDs is that not only do you get better (perceived) motion due to the slight blurring of the frame blending, but you also don't have any dropped or repeated frames. Another benefit of being able to turn off all that additional processing by the TV is that it pretty much eliminates any need for audio delay.

[tyguy]

Real Cinema only needs to be disabled if you are using smooth motion.
Pardon my ignorance, but why does real cinema need to be disabled when using smooth motion?

[VBB]

Pardon my ignorance, but why does real cinema need to be disabled when using smooth motion?

Because with Smooth Motion there is no need for any pull-down, which is what Real Cinema does. SM's frame blending takes care of everything. Try it with Real Cinema on, and you'll see tons of micro stutter.

[tyguy]

Because with Smooth Motion there is no need for any pull-down, which is what Real Cinema does. SM's frame blending takes care of everything. Try it with Real Cinema on, and you'll see tons of micro stutter.
I'm seeing some info out there that says if you have trumotion set to on that real cinema is overridden. So you can just set de judder and de blur to 0 and you're all set. Also, according to LGs website if the source isn't 24hz or 1080i real cinema is greyed out and off.

Since we are using smooth motion at 60 hz shouldn't real cinema be off? Id assume it would be greyd out and off in game mode too because you aren't going to want real cinema or trumotion for gaming.

https://www.lg.com/ca_en/support/product-help/CT20098023-20150896210943-others

[VBB]

TruMotion disables Real Cinema, yes. In similar fashion, Smooth Motion also needs RC disabled, but the TV wouldn't know anything about SM, so you have to disable RC yourself.

[tyguy]

TruMotion disables Real Cinema, yes. In similar fashion, Smooth Motion also needs RC disabled, but the TV wouldn't know anything about SM, so you have to disable RC yourself.

What if you just had trumotion on with dejudder and deblur set to 0? Couldn't it playback smoothly with that setup and smooth motion on?

Also game hdr mode I believe both are disabled. I think in the technicolor hdr picture setting you can also disable both.

[iSeries]

It's not clear if trumotion at zero is 'off' or simply the lowest strength. Easy to test though, if you see any odd skips or jumps, then it will need to be disabled with smooth motion, same as real cinema.

In HDR modes (although not sure about game mode, never used it), real cinema is ON and greyed out. Switching it off is tricky but not impossible (took me about 20 minutes, toggling the TV in and out of hdr and quickly trying to change it to off before it greys out).

[tyguy]

It's not clear if trumotion at zero is 'off' or simply the lowest strength. Easy to test though, if you see any odd skips or jumps, then it will need to be disabled with smooth motion, same as real cinema.

In HDR modes (although not sure about game mode, never used it), real cinema is ON and greyed out. Switching it off is tricky but not impossible (took me about 20 minutes, toggling the TV in and out of hdr and quickly trying to change it to off before it greys out).I asked LG to see if having user on with both sliders at 0 would turn both trumotion and real cinema off. I'll let you guys know when I get a response.

there is also the option of not using smooth motion and just letting the tv handle it since the lg oleds seem to be able to remove judder without adding soap opera.

I'm sure madvr smoothmotion is better, but that's also a possibility.

[VBB]

Absolutely. You should try each one and come to your own conclusion. I used Dejudder for a long time, at up to 5, because I could not stand the stutter inherent to OLEDs. You get used to a little SOE, but what always bugged me was the artifacts. That's where LG's processing simply lags behind. So, earlier this year, I finally turned TruMotion off. Was hard to get used to the stutter again, but then I saw someone's post on AVS about sticking to 60Hz + Smooth Motion. Tried it and never looked back. The only thing I wish I could use at this point is PC mode...

[tyguy]

Absolutely. You should try each one and come to your own conclusion. I used Dejudder for a long time, at up to 5, because I could not stand the stutter inherent to OLEDs. You get used to a little SOE, but what always bugged me was the artifacts. That's where LG's processing simply lags behind. So, earlier this year, I finally turned TruMotion off. Was hard to get used to the stutter again, but then I saw someone's post on AVS about sticking to 60Hz + Smooth Motion. Tried it and never looked back. The only thing I wish I could use at this point is PC mode...
I actually had it setup with 60 hz plus smooth motion plus trumotion set to user with dejudder at 0 and deblur at 10. I have not noticed any weird jerkiness or frame drops.

I did notice frame repeats when they would happen once every 5 minutes when I was setting it to match framerate at 23 hz.

[j82k]

On the C8 'TruMotion 0 0' is the same as 'TruMotion off + real cinema on'. There is no motion interpolation but the 3:2 pulldown detection is active when outputting 60Hz and this causes problems when using madVR smooth motion.

[chros]

Anybody with a C8 who has the UHD Blu-Ray version of 'Maleficent' or 'The Lion King' and could check some scenes?

I'm getting some really strange colors in certain darker scenes with the C8. I think it's a saturation problem with cyan and I've seen this in a lot of movies.
@janos666 figured it out (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-122.html#post58872270) how to create and upload 3dluts for HDR10 with displaycal + calman (you can use DeviceControl). I can't try it for now since displaycal doesn't support 17 points cube for DeviceControl yet.
If you have time and in the mood and still have your C8 you can give it a go. I'd be curious about the result :)

[SamuriHL]

I may have to try it sometime later this week. It sounds fantastic. I've been playing with calibration a lot the past couple weeks and I have it dialed in quite well with calman but as we know there are inherent issues with that method. So this sounds great!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[j82k]

@janos666 figured it out (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-122.html#post58872270) how to create and upload 3dluts for HDR10 with displaycal + calman (you can use DeviceControl). I can't try it for now since displaycal doesn't support 17 points cube for DeviceControl yet.
If you have time and in the mood and still have your C8 you can give it a go. I'd be curious about the result :)


I've read this and it just confuses me.
Why would I need to send a fake HDR signal when madTPG does this already? I have no idea what a XYZ cLUT profile is, there is nothing called that in displaycal. Measuring 100% R G B wouldn't that mess up everything because of the white sub-pixel boost? Do I leave the TV in calibration mode when displaycal is profiling or not?

I've tried creating a madVR HDR 3D Lut before and the result was just a mess, so unless someone provides a properly working test chart and recommended settings I won't bother trying this again.
Also I don't have Calman, just DeviceControl.

[QBhd]

@SamuriHL... I was wondering if you could share your latest test build settings for HDR. You seem pleased with it and I have a C8 as well and want to see for myself what this is all about. Things are moving so fast on this, and what I have found already seems old LOL

I just downloaded the 112b build

Thanks in advance

QB

[SamuriHL]

Sure. These settings are likely to be tweaked at some point but this is what I'm currently using except for the curve shown in this picture:

https://i.ibb.co/S0dYCJV/2019-11-25-18-40-05.png

The curve I'm using is:

Neo-XP 1.0 high, Pure Log, Strength 100:

500-903-1076-1178-1306-1390-1479-1581-1653-1709-1754-1793-1826-1882-1928-2000

I've watched a few movies with these settings and I like what I see. At some point I'll revisit sky detection and maybe even highlight recovery and shadow detail. I don't think those need to be nearly as high as I have them set right now. Dynamic tuning is probably set a tad too high in my settings. In any case, I'm pleased with the results I'm getting. Fine tuning comes later.

[QBhd]

So this curve... That's what I was intrigued by. These values above would go into the 3rd row of the HSTM and then that one would be selected?

BTW, thanks for the share :)

QB

[SamuriHL]

They can go into any slot as long as they're selected, yeah. The quality is stunning.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[QBhd]

Cool... I just finished inputting all the values of your SS and now I'll add the "new" curve... Be sure to thank everyone on AVS for the hard work... including yourself I guess :)

I am not sure how my new Sapphire Nitro+ 5700 XT will handle all this... we'll see in a bit :)

One other thing... we don't need to "pre"- measure the video anymore, correct? I tried all this with my old R9 290X months ago, and it was just a waste of time since I didn't have the power to do much... so I put this testing on the back burner until I got a new card... It's been a few weeks now and I think I am ready to jump back into the hardcore HDR testing.

QB

edit: LOL... I just realized the curve you typed out is actually the last one :P

[SamuriHL]

Measurement files don't work in these builds with hstm. He'll add support for them at some point but honestly I've not seen any need for them lately.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[j82k]

What the hell, I just did a 3D-LUT reset (upload unity Lut?) for the HDR Cinema preset with DeviceControl on my C8.

And that completely fixed the ugly Cyan/Magenta transitions I had in various scenes of HDR movies.

I have never done anything with the HDR 3LUTs, that problem already existed before I even had access to DeviceControl. I have done factory resets and even the service menu in-stop and nothing fixed this problem.

So can anyone explain why the factory 3DLUT of all my HDR presets is messed up?

Top factory 3DLUT / Bottom unity 3dLUT:

https://i.imgur.com/rak3TQQ.png
https://i.imgur.com/8gCj0Wj.png

https://i.imgur.com/EaYMOTB.png
https://i.imgur.com/bKfyQVp.png

https://i.imgur.com/lt9dIOl.png
https://i.imgur.com/ppUKiKn.png

To my eyes all of these scenes look good now with the unity 3DLUT, that ugly cyan/magenta transition is completely gone. I'm just baffled...

[iSeries]

Didn't you have your panel replaced at some point? Maybe something to do with that?

[j82k]

Yes but I didn't think the factory 3D LUT would be panel specific or if it was it would be stored in the T-Con board which is part of the panel.

I now noticed though with the unity 3D LUT brighter scenes are a bit undersaturated, so I guess the only way to really fix this is to create my own HDR 3DLUT with DisplayCAL and upload it to the TV.

edit: I still don't have a clue how to setup DisplayCal to create a proper HDR 3DLut that I can upload with DeviceControl. Do I leave the TV in calibration mode or not while profiling? Target is gamma 2.2 BT.2020? What type of LUT do I use? I've read everything at DisplayCAL forum and I'm just confused....

[chros]

Didn't you have your panel replaced at some point? Maybe something to do with that?
It has nothing to do with that.

What the hell, I just did a 3D-LUT reset (upload unity Lut?) for the HDR Cinema preset with DeviceControl on my C8.
Are you sure that it wasn't the 1dlut? I don't think there's a factory 3dlut for HDR10 preset (I don't now about SDR).

And that completely fixed the ugly Cyan/Magenta transitions I had in various scenes of HDR movies.
...
So can anyone explain why the factory 3DLUT of all my HDR presets is messed up?
Yes, that was what @janos666 told us! (He talked about unity 1dlut.)

To my eyes all of these scenes look good now with the unity 3DLUT, that ugly cyan/magenta transition is completely gone. I'm just baffled...
:D I also tried out quickly (unity 1dlut and unity 3dlut), and I see the same with Maleficent scene. :) But at the same time other scenes just look completely off :D So it's a no go either.

I now noticed though with the unity 3D LUT brighter scenes are a bit undersaturated, so I guess the only way to really fix this is to create my own HDR 3DLUT with DisplayCAL and upload it to the TV.

edit: I still don't have a clue how to setup DisplayCal to create a proper HDR 3DLut that I can upload with DeviceControl. Do I leave the TV in calibration mode or not while profiling? Target is gamma 2.2 BT.2020? What type of LUT do I use? I've read everything at DisplayCAL forum and I'm just confused....

Take a look at this post (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/21458/), but I have to tell you that I don't really like the results :D
Problem is, so far I'm the only one who played with this (apart from @janos666 couple of weeks ago, who is without any TV now, waiting for his new C9 :) ), Josh is working on the tool, so we need more manpower and knowledge :D

[j82k]

I didn't reset the 1dlut for these tests with the hdr cinema preset, only the 3dlut.

But I've tried this now with the hdr game preset. Unity 1dlut + unity 3dlut = very cold color temperature, I guess thats the native color temperature.

edit: By the way how do you get such a high gamut coverage/volume when measuring 100% R G B? When I do that it gets me like 65% DCI-P3. Did you disable the HDR module in the service menu?

[Asmodian]

When I do that it gets me like 65% DCI-P3. Did you disable the HDR module in the service menu?

Do you have the HDMI input set to Game or PC mode? You cannot get good DCI-P3 HDR coverage with full resolution chroma on LG's OLEDs. :(

Please tell me more about this HDR module in the service menu. :)

[j82k]

I'm using non-pc standard HDMI mode. I just used the hdr game preset for testing as I don't want to mess up the factory 1dlut for the other presets.

About the moduleHDR option in the sercie menu:
At default it's set to normal.
If you turn it Off the TV will no longer use the white sub-pixel to boost peak brightness for hdr, meaning you will have a higher color volume but lower peak brightness.
Setting it to On will get you higher SDR peak brightness at the cost of color volume. I've used that in the past for madVR HDRtoSDR.

[chros]

Please tell me more about this HDR module in the service menu. :)
Have you seen this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1890666#post1890666)?

Do you have the HDMI input set to Game or PC mode? You cannot get good DCI-P3 HDR coverage with full resolution chroma on LG's OLEDs. :(
That's a myth :) : I still use only PC mode (from PC, including all measurements as well) :devil:
That reminds me (just to let you know guys), I just ordered an external media player - M9702 v3 (https://www.avforums.com/threads/the-ultimate-oppo-media-device.2207229/) - just (!) for DV content (I fed up with HDR10 :) ) that I plan to use in PC mode as well :D I'll see how it goes ...

I didn't reset the 1dlut for these tests with the hdr cinema preset, only the 3dlut.
Hm, that's strange.

But I've tried this now with the hdr game preset. Unity 1dlut + unity 3dlut = very cold color temperature, I guess thats the native color temperature.
Yes, probably.

edit: By the way how do you get such a high gamut coverage/volume when measuring 100% R G B? When I do that it gets me like 65% DCI-P3. Did you disable the HDR module in the service menu?
No!!! :eek: I don't touch that one more time :)
Have you set "XYZ LUT" on the Profiling tab? I got only ~75% DCI-P3 coverage with "gamma+matrix" setting there previously.
I just reran for you the 3dlut creation in DisplayCal just to be sure (by unchecking Create 3dlut after profiling), and I got that ~95% again.

I just used the hdr game preset for testing as I don't want to mess up the factory 1dlut for the other presets.
Me too :) I've set up (so I can easily switch between the 3):
- technicolor for: factory 1dlut + matrix filled user 3dlut
- cinema for: unity 1dlut + “full” user 3dlut
- set up cinema home for: as cinema was before experimenting

So, have you managed to create any? Opinions?
And if you did which util do you use for uploading: devicecontrol or aiopylgtv? I'm asking this, because can be issues (I don't know) with the uploading math in aiopylgtv as well. (I can only use aiopylgtv.)

[j82k]

So far I've only created HDR Luts that are a mess with larger test charts or ones that don't really fix anything with very small test charts. About the low gamut coverage I was getting, that only happens with larger ones.

I've only been using DeviceControl and as far as I can tell DisplayCAL can only create 3dluts for that, not 1dluts.

[Asmodian]

Thanks for the info about the HDR module options. I think I will leave it alone. :)

That's a myth :) : I still use only PC mode (from PC, including all measurements as well) :devil:

How do you measure color volume?

[chros]

How do you measure color volume?
DisplayCal does, based on the generated 3dflut. Click on the 2 "steps" links in this post (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/21458/) to see the results.

About the low gamut coverage I was getting, that only happens with larger ones.
Which settings did you use?

I've only been using DeviceControl and as far as I can tell DisplayCAL can only create 3dluts for that, not 1dluts.
That's correct. But Josh implemented 1dlut uploading capability in aiopylgtv (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv) util (I haven't tried that yet):
"The supported input formats for LUTs are IRIDAS .cube format for both 1D and 3D LUTs, and ArgyllCMS .cal files for 1D LUTs."

So far I've only created HDR Luts that are a mess with larger test charts or ones that don't really fix anything with very small test charts.
Ted and the rest of the calibration gurus don't even bother to try to profile HDR mode (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/2962814-2018-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-25.html#post56234908), they are convinced that it's completely unreliable and useless with these displays. I may ask them again ...
Anyway, let us know if you managed to come up something useful :)

[chros]

So far I've only created HDR Luts that are a mess with larger test charts or ones that don't really fix anything with very small test charts.
Try out the 2nd test case (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/21458/) I did (unity 1dlut + user 3dlut (XYZ testchart)), I uploaded the p68 patchset (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/issues/1#issuecomment-562243062) as well. It's not that bad at all and we can start with something.
If you are still interested then let's discuss this there or on avsforum (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3106216-open-source-library-lg-calibration-lut-uploads.html), because no one is interested in this here :)

[SamuriHL]

I wouldn't say no one's interested in that here. It's a very relevant topic when discussing how to drive the best HDR quality from madvr on these OLED panels. I've been using the matrix LUT from Calman Home and it does a decent enough job. I think they agree that 3dluts in the HDR world on these sets have not been super awesome so far. LOL The results I've gotten are decent but if it can be improved, I'm all for it.

[j82k]

Try out the 2nd test case (https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/reply/21458/) I did (unity 1dlut + user 3dlut (XYZ testchart)), I uploaded the p68 patchset (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv/issues/1#issuecomment-562243062) as well....

Currently not in the mood to do another HDR calibration session. Maybe when something new comes up, like the ability to create a 1dlut with displaycal.

[chros]

I wouldn't say no one's interested in that here.
Don't get me wrong, but under "interested" I meant those ones who are willing to experiment with their device and not just talk about it :)

[SamuriHL]

Don't get me wrong, but under "interested" I meant those ones who are willing to experiment with their device and not just talk about it :)

I'm still learning the ins and outs of calibration right now so I don't think I'd be a whole lot of help yet. If you figure something concrete with reasonably good steps on how to do it then I can try. I'm still fighting with the HDFury to get Dolby Vision calibrated unfortunately. I need to get back to that soon.

[biship]

Newbie here. Recommended basic MadVr setup are per 1st post?

MadVR:
PC levels (0-255)
display bitdepth: auto
display modes: 2160p23 for movies (Add 2160p60 for regular shows??)
reduce banding artifacts low (default strength), low (fade in/out)
chroma upscaling: NGU AA, medium
image upscaling: NGU Sharp, high

No need to set Display Modes?
Can I leave MadVR HDR settings at 'let madvr decide' or is something recommended here?
Any other MadVR settings I should consider?

My PC is struggling to do any upscaling as it is. (GTX 1050)

[VBB]

Assuming you have an OLED, you should be able to do about the same that I can do with my GTX 960:

PC Levels 0-255
display bit depth 8-bit
display modes set to "do not auto-switch" (we want to stay at 60hz at all times)
reduce banding artifacts low/high
chroma upscaling NGU AA low (no need to go any higher, since we're not going to use 4:4:4 anyway)
image upscaling NGU Sharp high (or lower, depending on what you're upscaling)

You can leave all upscaling at "let madVR decide". Enable "smooth motion=always". HDR set to "pass-through". Make sure DirectX 11 is also checked in both madVR and LAV filters. Set desktop resolution in Nvidia control panel to 2160@60Hz 8-bit RGB Full, power in 3D settings to "adaptive". TV black level to HIGH, HDMI to anything other than "PC". Turn off both TruMotion and Real Cinema.

That should get you some decent results with your card. My GTX 960 rarely goes into the 30s with any content.

[Asmodian]

Great advice for HDR, I mostly agree with your settings but it is depressing that we do not get 4:4:4 with HDR. :(

Also it will look the same on the TV if you use limited YCbCr 4:4:4 output and set the TV to low blacks instead of sending RGB with the TV on high blacks. I think the level of processing going on in the display makes sending full range RGB not helpful in anyway and it may be even worse than YCbCr. These TVs do not do a super high quality RGB to YCbCr conversion internally. This allows me to only change the HDMI label when switching between optimal HDR and SDR modes on the TV.
Edit: I mean setting the desktop resolution in Nvidia control panel to 2160@60Hz 8 bit YCbCr 444 limited, not changing anything in madVR.

HDMI to anything other than "PC".

Game is similar to PC, you need to use something else for HDR content to looks its best.

[mark0077]

Asmodian, I am using your recommended settings for my LG C9 of 2160@60hz 8bit YCbCr 444 limited for standard content and its by far the best with the least amount of banding. (I'm in PC + Game mode).

For HDR what do you recommend now based on your recent experiences? The same mode of 2160@60hz 8bit YCbCr 444 limited in HDR mode seems to make the screen go almost pure green (not sure if its an Nvidia driver bug, it happens only if I don't first set Windows to HD Colour mode so I guess its madVR -> Nvidia driver switch that causes it).

I assume some higher bit depth is required anyways to make best use of the 10bit HDR content. Currently testing with The Lion King UHD Blu-Ray. Seems like I have to go back to RGB or YCbCr 422/420 of varying bit depths? Is there a known best mode on these TVs for HDR to have the least amount of banding, similar to the advice of YCbCr 444 8bit for standard content?

[VBB]

Yes, it's RGB Full 8-bit :)

[biship]

Thanks VBB. Yes I have a OLED65C9PUA, which is connected to my Denon AVR-X3500H. My Windows 10 PC (i7-6850K & GTX 1050, with latest LAVF, MADVR & Nvidia drivers) also connects to the Denon.

On the Denon I've turn on Enhanced Black, Video Mode to Movie, Video Conversion on, but IP Scaler off.
In the 11111 settings on the TV it shows HDCP 1.4 & 2.2 as FALSE. No idea why. It does show 3840x2160P @ 59.92Hz RGB 8BIT BT2020_RGBORYCBCR - which I assumes means HDR10?
Does all this look correct?

Even with minimal settings in MadVR, I get 60ms+ rendering, which results in dropped frames, unless I disable banding processing, dithering, and set all scaling to DXVA2.
Why is MadVR even doing anything to 2160p HDR10 sources? 70ms just for post processing is crazy.
Images:
https://ibb.co/HC7tdfX
https://ibb.co/NCqc63s

[Asmodian]

The same mode of 2160@60hz 8bit YCbCr 444 limited in HDR mode seems to make the screen go almost pure green (not sure if its an Nvidia driver bug, it happens only if I don't first set Windows to HD Colour mode so I guess its madVR -> Nvidia driver switch that causes it).

8 bit RGB full does seem to have slightly less banding than YCbCr 444 limited in HDR10. Another setting to change when switching between SDR and HDR. :(
I do not get any odd issues with the screen going green or anything like that (Win10 1909, 441.66).

I never noticed it before because the banding difference is much less significant than the difference between 8 and 10 bit in SDR. I thought they looked the same but switching back and forth with a color banding test does convince me 8 bit RGB has less banding, still more visible banding than with 8 bit YCbCr 444 SDR but perhaps that is simply due to the increased brightness.

I assume some higher bit depth is required anyways to make best use of the 10bit HDR content. Currently testing with The Lion King UHD Blu-Ray. Seems like I have to go back to RGB or YCbCr 422/420 of varying bit depths? Is there a known best mode on these TVs for HDR to have the least amount of banding, similar to the advice of YCbCr 444 8bit for standard content?

You should not send 10 bit to the display. I never feed my LG C7 or C9 >8 bit. madVR likes the 10 bit input, and keeps much of the extra information with its excellent dithering to 8 bit, but LG does not do a good job handling 10 bit input in any test I have done. At best 10 bit is the same as 8 bit while at worst it has significantly worse banding.

Yes, it's RGB Full 8-bit :)

Do you agree that there is less banding with 8 bit YCbCr 444 limited in SDR even while there is less banding with 8 bit RGB full in HDR? This seems true for both PC and Home Theatre HDR modes. I wish LG was better at image processing, or at least consistent. :p

[SamuriHL]

Interesting. I've been calibrating the C8 using RGB full 8 bit and switching to YcbCr 444 limited for both SDR and HDR. I guess I should try these banding tests you're referring to. Got a link handy for that? I'm watching It Chapter Two right now in HDR YCbCr 444 limited and it looks good to me. RGB looks different. As mentioned before, it's hard to say for sure which is "correct" but I don't get the feeling this display likes RGB all that much. It seems built for consumer device input i.e. YCbCr.

[Asmodian]

It is a pretty subtle difference in banding but I am pretty sure it is real. :o
gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1 24fps.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/file/4dia3lixs0n9xyo/gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1_24fps.mkv/file)
gradient-perceptual-v2.1 24fps.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/file/z1f4ahg3784lfwz/gradient-perceptual-v2.1_24fps.mkv/file)
Even the bad banding of 10 bit full range RGB is subtle in most real content, these files expose display banding very aggressively.

Edit: Hmm, I am less sure this is actually a useful test in HDR, since it is a perceptual gradient SDR test. Maybe the difference is an interaction with Windows HDR? That seems likely since I saw the same banding in PC and Home Theater mode.
@VBB What did you use to decide RGB was better than YCbCr 444, if you did?

[QBhd]

I used "The Long Night", season 8 episode 3 of Game of Thrones 4k HDR... I think it's about the 16 min mark... Dani and Jon have just started burning up the dead and the banding is un-watchable. I threw every conceivable combination of color space, bitrate, and HDMI mode at this episode. Finally settled on 8-bit RGB and normal HDMI mode.

QB

[SamuriHL]

I saw some pretty bad banding in it chapter two last night, as well. I'll need to compare it against rgb. Come on lg...

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[iSeries]

From what I see, madVR limited 8bit, gpu rgb full 8bit, and TV black level low is the best configuration for an HTPC with an LG TV. A complete 'full' chain has slightly more banding and slightly increased black crush. And as most people will agree, greater than 8bit also results in increased banding, and definitely PC mode results in greatly increased banding.

[mark0077]

Edit: Hmm, I am less sure this is actually a useful test in HDR, since it is a perceptual gradient SDR test. Maybe the difference is an interaction with Windows HDR? That seems likely since I saw the same banding in PC and Home Theater mode.
@VBB What did you use to decide RGB was better than YCbCr 444, if you did?

With those perceptual tests, how are you performing the test? I have to manually set windows to HDR as madVR doesn't trigger it for these tests (I assume because they are not BT2020?). I find when I'm in a smaller window the display stays in HDR mode, as soon as I double click and go fullscreen at all, the TV switches back to non HDR mode.

[Asmodian]

Yep, manually trigger HDR in Windows and keep the player windowed. I think I will stick to YCbCr 444 limited for HDR too though, at least until I get better evidence that RGB full is actually better for HDR. :o

From what I see, madVR limited 8bit, gpu rgb full 8bit, and TV black level low is the best configuration for an HTPC with an LG TV. A complete 'full' chain has slightly more banding and slightly increased black crush. And as most people will agree, greater than 8bit also results in increased banding, and definitely PC mode results in greatly increased banding.

PC mode does not have higher banding if I set madVR to full and the GPU to YCbCr 444 limited. :)

[iSeries]

^ pretty sure I read the TV will do all it's processing at 8bit in PC mode, regardless of rgb/ycbcr input?

[Asmodian]

In my tests the C9 does very well with 8 bit YCbCr 444 limited input in PC mode. Virtually no banding, the same as the non-PC modes. With any other input type (i.e. RGB limited or full) PC mode does have obviously worse banding. I believe the key is to avoid the processing as much as possible when in PC mode.

Given how my C9 handles 10 bit input in PC mode I would be surprised if it was not processing it in 8 bit, it looks exactly like a 10 bit -> 8 bit conversion with no dithering. Chroma subsampling is completely unacceptable for me so I was very happy to find a setting that was virtually banding free in PC mode.

[VBB]

So, after about five hours of testing today, I've found my new favorite combo for both SDR and HDR (you're all gonna laugh):

GPU set to YCbCr 4:2:2, 10-bit, madVR set to PC Levels 0-255, 10-bit or higher, TV set to Black Level Low, non-PC mode

I came to this conclusion after extensive back-and-forth testing for banding. I tried every possibly combination with mainly these two patterns, courtesy of Tyler Pruitt and Stacey Spears, respectively:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68jIlCvW85gWFp0NVUwTFdTNFE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B68jIlCvW85gMW5aX21CbU1IOGs/view?usp=sharing

For my testing, I disabled "reduce banding artifacts" and any dithering in madVR, to get a fairly unprocessed image. I agree with Asmodian that YCbCr 4:4:4, 8-bit is the best option for PC mode (both SDR and HDR), with RGB Limited, 8-bit a close second. Unfortunately, there is still quite a bit of banding in PC mode compared to non-PC mode. The added benefit of 4:4:4 is just not worth it to me after seeing how much smoother YCbCr 4:2:2, 10-bit is in non-PC mode. I had never even tried this combo until today, not realizing that 10-bit was in fact an option with Nvidia, but only with this particular combo. Now, as most of you know by now, there really isn't any benefit to using 10-bit over 8-bit with dithering, but this gave me the smoothest gradients of all the combos I tested. There is virtually no banding even without dithering.

Coming from almost two years of RGB Full, 8-bit usage, I had to check that all my other settings were still OK. Used an all-black 0% pattern with my nose less than an inch from the screen in total darkness. I found that I had to decrease Brightness on my C7 by 3, from 51 down to 48, which I thought was odd. In HDR mode, I had to decrease it by just 1, from 51 down to 50. I should probably also redo my LUTs. A great pattern to check black level is this one by Wizziwig:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1661825&d=1473909205

If anyone else is interested in testing all this, I'm curious what you'll find, especially with the newer LGs. Don't forget to turn dithering back on in madVR when you're done. I'ma go watch some stuff now. Will report back if I notice anything weird.

[SamuriHL]

I watched the long night with pc mode YCbCr 444 limited earlier and there was wicked banding in most of the fire scenes. I really really like 444 but the banding it's quite horrific with my c8 for HDR. I didn't notice it as much for sdr and the benefit to sdr upscaling is huge. Get it together lg! Ugh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[QBhd]

The Long Night 4k HDR... it will hammer your preferred banding setup.

QB

[VBB]

I watched the same thing earlier, in both 1080p SDR and 4K HDR. It was smooth.

[SamuriHL]

Yeah I figured it was going to be a good test. Lol. But I also see banding in the spears and munsil uhd demo. I'll do some more playing later and see if I can eliminate it. It would be fantastic to get it to a watchable state at 444.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

It would be fantastic to get it to a watchable state at 444.
In PC mode? :D (Just kidding.)

PC mode does not have higher banding if I set madVR to full and the GPU to YCbCr 444 limited. :)
But we know that's not even proper 4:4:4 (although really close to it), do we? :)

It's not just banding, but posterization in near black scenes in HDR (e.g. <20 nits), it's just absolutely rubbish :D (Read from here (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1883108#post1883108).)
Note, that I still use PC mode with RGB full 12 bit (I gave up on experimenting with it, all of them had some issues), and just try to enjoy it :)

[QBhd]

You say that now, but something like The Long Night is truly un-watchable like that :)

QB

[Asmodian]

But we know that's not even proper 4:4:4 (although really close to it), do we? :)

What does really close to but not proper 4:4:4 mean? There are odd pixel interaction artifacts, something like crosstalk, but it is not an issue with chroma subsampling.

It's not just banding, but posterization in near black scenes in HDR (e.g. <20 nits)

For HDR I gave up on 444 a long time ago. It is more than just posterization and banding, the color gamut is all messed up too. I use Home Theater for HDR content. :(

[mark0077]

It seems like most are coming to the conclusion so that YCbCr444 8bit limited shows least banding for SDR and HDR. My fear is we are not ever seeing true 10bit content from these UHD movies, only an 8 bit dithered version of it (albeit very good through madVR). Is there some calibration accuracy test that can compare this to non PC mode with the higher bit depths to see if they show a true 10 bit image with the full dynamic range that brings? Still feels wrong to have to "settle" for 8 bit when the original content is 10 bit doesn't it?

[SamuriHL]

You say that now, but something like The Long Night is truly un-watchable like that :)

QBYou ain't kidding!

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

I genuinely don't worry about bit depth. In a blind comparison you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between properly dithered 8 bit vs native 10 bit. The problem is that these panels don't seem to handle higher bit depth properly. I'd not get hung up on that issue.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

Is there some calibration accuracy test that can compare this to non PC mode with the higher bit depths to see if they show a true 10 bit image with the full dynamic range that brings?
There are: in Mehanik's HDR test patterns from avsforum, there's a section for this. Take a look.

[chros]

You say that now, but something like The Long Night is truly un-watchable like that :)
:D I watched it, so it's watchable, but you can throw almost any HDR content to it and it behaves the same way.

What does really close to but not proper 4:4:4 mean? There are odd pixel interaction artifacts, something like crosstalk, but it is not an issue with chroma subsampling.
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, but does it matter in the end if there are pixels where they shouldn't be? :)
(And I didn't know you only talk about SDR.)

[VBB]

No comments on what I posted last night? Sure, you'd have to backtrack a page, but come on! ;)

[iSeries]

@VBB how do you find ycbcr 422 10bit vs limited>full RGB 8bit>black level low? I quickly looked at this on my c8 and don't really see any difference in gradation between them

[VBB]

I found it to be the smoothest. Trust me, I would have never switched from RGB to YCbCr if I hadn't seen this with my own eyes. How did you test? PC mode only, or both? Unsurprisingly, this combo is not smooth at all in PC mode.

[SamuriHL]

I haven't had a chance to test it yet. I am curious, myself.

[SamuriHL]

So, after about five hours of testing today, I've found my new favorite combo for both SDR and HDR (you're all gonna laugh):

GPU set to YCbCr 4:2:2, 10-bit, madVR set to PC Levels 0-255, 10-bit or higher, TV set to Black Level Low, non-PC mode


Yea, this does look quite good but you should be aware of something. "10 bit" is being sent as 12 bit by the GPU regardless of what it's telling you. I'm testing now with more GoT and it looks very good so it might become my new "goto" settings, too, but, more testing is needed. Like a lot more. Nonetheless, this has quite a bit of potential.

[iSeries]

^ does using the hidden option to output ycbcr from madVR improve things or make things worse?

[SamuriHL]

I'm not sure I know how to do that. I can say that the Envy is going to output YCbCr by default so it might actually be worth trying since the Envy code was merge. Care to share how to do that?

[iSeries]

I think it's something like create an empty folder or a file called ycbcr

[SamuriHL]

Interesting. We may have to mess with that. I really, truly feel the LG OLEDs do NOT like RGB input. So that might be useful. I don't have time to play with that tonight.

[nevcairiel]

That option would be rather rarely useful as you need to convince your TV thats its receiving YCbCr when everything is telling it that its receiving RGB (which very few display can even do), plus it screws up anything but madVR output, ie. Windows and player UI to boot.

[SamuriHL]

I'm confused with what you're saying. Are you saying using the ycbcr option in madvr and setting the GPU to RGB (why would anyone do that?) would cause that? Or are you saying just sending YCbCr from the GPU causes it? From what I can see, the GPU is sending YCbCr and the TV is accepting that. I think iSeries was proposing that instead of madvr outputting RGB and having the GPU convert it before sending it to the TV, that we'd have madvr output YCbCr instead. Would that not work? Is that what you're saying?

[VBB]

He's talking about this here:

Hidden Options
An empty folder or file in the madVR program directory with a specific name will trigger a hidden option, these are options you probably do not want to use.

YCbCr: Outputs YCbCr data instead of RGB, as if it was RGB.

I have not messed with that, so I can't say if it's beneficial.

[nevcairiel]

I think iSeries was proposing that instead of madvr outputting RGB and having the GPU convert it before sending it to the TV, that we'd have madvr output YCbCr instead. Would that not work? Is that what you're saying?

That doesn't work because the backbuffer (ie. the screen) is always in RGB. So when madVR outputs YCbCr to the backbuffer, then the GPU still thinks that its RGB, and if the GPU tries to convert it, it would screw it up - so it has to treat it like RGB.

Hence, everything thinks its handling RGB, the GPU and the screen, so you have to convince one of them that its not RGB, and thats not easily possible.

Basically, a PC is not designed for a direct YCbCr path.

[QBhd]

Basically, a PC is not designed for a direct YCbCr path.

That's the main reason why I settled on 8-bit RGB with the default HDMI label on the TV.

QB

[Asmodian]

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, but does it matter in the end if there are pixels where they shouldn't be? :)

Chroma subsampling is blurring the image across the entire screen while some color fringing on the edge of a solid yellow regions or similar is a very different issue. Changing the subsampling done by the TV does not change the artifacts, they are unrelated issues, so it seems wrong to bring them up as if they were related. :p

Is there some calibration accuracy test that can compare this to non PC mode with the higher bit depths to see if they show a true 10 bit image with the full dynamic range that brings? Still feels wrong to have to "settle" for 8 bit when the original content is 10 bit doesn't it?

10 bit does not increase the dynamic range in anyway. I did do accuracy tests with Calman Video Pro and 10 bit does not increase accuracy at all. All it does is decrease the magnitude of the dithering noise but humans tend to perceive subtle noise as sharpness. The very slightly higher noise floor of dithered 8 bit compared to dithered 10 bit is not a significant negative, if noticeable at all. Certainly not on these LG OLEDs.

The video processing path will be different for different bit depths so various displays will handle 10 bit better or worse but the total dynamic range should never change.

[SamuriHL]

That doesn't work because the backbuffer (ie. the screen) is always in RGB. So when madVR outputs YCbCr to the backbuffer, then the GPU still thinks that its RGB, and if the GPU tries to convert it, it would screw it up - so it has to treat it like RGB.



Hence, everything thinks its handling RGB, the GPU and the screen, so you have to convince one of them that its not RGB, and thats not easily possible.



Basically, a PC is not designed for a direct YCbCr path.That sadly makes sense.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

Chroma subsampling is blurring the image across the entire screen while some color fringing on the edge of a solid yellow regions or similar is a very different issue. Changing the subsampling done by the TV does not change the artifacts, they are unrelated issues, so it seems wrong to bring them up as if they were related. :p
:) I understand what you mean now, but is the end result proper 4:4:4 or not? :D Believe me, I'd be one of the happiest chap if it was :)

No comments on what I posted last night? Sure, you'd have to backtrack a page, but come on! ;)
I read it and I'm happy for you if you are happy :) Were you talking about SDR only and not PC mode, right?
I'm like Asmodian (probably worse, with HDR), I won't abandon PC mode :)
(We are busy with playing calibration, really frustrating :) )

[SamuriHL]

PC mode is a mess. I wanted very badly to get it to work but it's not usable imo. If you can live with the issues that's awesome. For me even with my ub820 it's a mess.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[VBB]

I read it and I'm happy for you if you are happy :) Were you talking about SDR only and not PC mode, right?
I'm like Asmodian (probably worse, with HDR), I won't abandon PC mode :)
(We are busy with playing calibration, really frustrating :) )

I was talking about both SDR and HDR, non-PC mode. There is no way to get PC mode to be smooth. So, yeah, I'm happy, for now anyway.

I used to spend days with the meter in front of my screens, but with the C7 I've only done it a couple of times. My SDR LUT is still good, although it might be time to redo it. As far as HDR is concerned, I tried when my set was new, but I realized quickly that a LUT via DisplayCAL just wasn't possible due to the instability of the display. So I dialed in the white point and called it a day ;)

I'll start playing with calibration again once I get a better meter and the C10 next year.

[Asmodian]

:) I understand what you mean now, but is the end result proper 4:4:4 or not?

Yes, the screen has proper 4:4:4 in PC mode.

Other pixel artifacts do not mean it is not "proper 4:4:4" it just means it has other pixel artifacts. :p

There is no way to get PC mode to be smooth.

It is possible on the C9 but only in SDR. The behavior is different compared to my C7, and I think the C8 is like the C7.

[VBB]

That's at least some progress. Let's see how the C10 turns out. Too bad we don't have any Sony owners here. I'd like to know firsthand how those behave (the panels, not the owners) :)

[VBB]

"10 bit" is being sent as 12 bit by the GPU regardless of what it's telling you.

Just noticed that myself. Is this another Nvidia bug, or intentional? Visually, there is no difference, which makes sense now.

[leeperry]

Hey guys, about to finally jump on the OLED bandwagon and here (https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1892858&postcount=58169) chros claims that even latest Pana's can't do proper 24p, I also read Asmodian here in this thread saying that only C9 can do 444 24p, so if I get a 8 series I'd have to go 422 huh?

Samsung TV's 444 is not manageable because it disables BFI and most post-processing, no such thing on LG OLED?

[SamuriHL]

Just noticed that myself. Is this another Nvidia bug, or intentional? Visually, there is no difference, which makes sense now.Unsure. I just noticed it with the integral 2 and thought I'd mention it. I think nvidia has always sent 12 bit. Maybe they're padding it I'm not sure.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[QBhd]

Hey guys, about to finally jump on the OLED bandwagon and here (https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1892858&postcount=58169) chros claims that even latest Pana's can't do proper 24p, I also read Asmodian here in this thread saying that only C9 can do 444 24p, so if I get a 8 series I'd have to go 422 huh?

Samsung TV's 444 is not manageable because it disables BFI and most post-processing, no such thing on LG OLED?

My LG C8 will do 23,24,25,29,30,50,59, and 60 Hz at 4k out of the box with 4:4:4 in PC mode. I don't use PC mode due to color banding.

Also, you don't want BFI (Motion Pro) on the OLED, it's terrible.

I suggest going to RTings and looking up the TV you want, it has very detailed breakdowns on just about every facet of the TV

QB

[VBB]

Unsure. I just noticed it with the integral 2 and thought I'd mention it. I think nvidia has always sent 12 bit. Maybe they're padding it I'm not sure.

I just did another couple of hours of testing. Turns out for 4:2:2, Nvidia sends 12-bit regardless of the chosen bit rate. Even when set to 8-bit it sends a 12-bit signal. But, what is set in the driver does make a difference. 8-bit has lots of banding, much more than with 4:4:4 or RGB. There is also a very small difference between 10 and 12-bit, with 10-bit looking ever so slightly better when judging various gradients.

It also depends on what bit rate madVR is set to. That's what makes testing this tedious. There seems to be a bug in madVR still, where sometimes, when set to 10-bit, it switches to 8-bit, and once it does that you have to reboot Windows in order to get it back into 10-bit mode. Had me question my sanity until I realized what was going on, because only when in 10-bit does 4:2:2 look the absolute smoothest out of all combos.

Went through PC mode as well again tonight. I gotta say that YCbCr 4:4:4 8-bit throughout the chain actually looks fairly decent in HDR, and pretty smooth in SDR. Add dithering back in, and perhaps a bit of "reduce banding artifacts", and it's the best choice if you can't live without PC mode.

As Asmodian pointed out earlier, things might be (slightly) different with the newer LGs, so it's always best to do your own testing.

[huhn]

Hey guys, about to finally jump on the OLED bandwagon and here (https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1892858&postcount=58169) chros claims that even latest Pana's can't do proper 24p, I also read Asmodian here in this thread saying that only C9 can do 444 24p, so if I get a 8 series I'd have to go 422 huh?

Samsung TV's 444 is not manageable because it disables BFI and most post-processing, no such thing on LG OLED?

no OLED can do BFI for 24p is technically impossible.

these panel run at 100 or 120 hz adn you can't BFI using a backlight because there is no backlight so you have to send real black frames.
i don't have to say more.

even if you get 4:4:4 working is far from optimal thanks to the WRGB used in these screen which can create interesting patterns...
that seems to be a bigger issue on the sony(defeat able) which supposed to have a relative good BFI and as always 4:4:4 for everything.

[Asmodian]

Samsung TV's 444 is not manageable because it disables BFI and most post-processing, no such thing on LG OLED?

LG disables almost everything in PC (444) mode.

Add dithering back in, and perhaps a bit of "reduce banding artifacts", and it's the best choice if you can't live without PC mode.

Wouldn't you always have dithering on when testing? It seems weird to test with it disabled if you have it enabled for playback (of course, you always have it enabled for playback).

I have no idea how my TV looks without dithering, but if madVR dithering to 8 bit has less banding than sending the TV dithered 10 bit isn't that the better mode regardless of what it looks like with dithering disabled?

The results without dithering are very interesting when trying to understand the TV's video processing but what is important for watching is the results with dithering enabled.

[leeperry]

LG disables almost everything in PC (444) mode.

Figures, so what does it matter whether 24p isn't smooth? If anything, it prolly is because all post-processing is disabled duh.

444 is not manageable on TV's IME due to this constraint, I'll trade full chroma for post-processing anytime.

[huhn]

it's simple math you can't put 24 frames in 60.
and i can just repeat my self yet again sonys can do 4:4:4 even with frame interpolation so you can get 44.4: and ruin your image at the same time.

this shouldn't be something special PC screen can do that too.

[leeperry]

sonys can do 4:4:4 even with frame interpolation so you can get 44.4: and ruin your image at the same time.
What SONY's did you try? B8 is often on sale down to 850€, SONY's are much pricier and I'm not too keen on dropping extra benji's for 444

I'm also under the impression that improvements in the C/9 series are quite irrelevant for mVR use?

[huhn]

just ask rtings.

the 120 hz thing could be huge on the C9. at least madshi likes the idea of native 120 hz. he talked about madVR site adaptive BFI many years ago.

LG are well know to handle HDR sub optimal the panasonic is better there but has pretty much the same price as the sony. the sony is also known to handle banding better something the LG is not great at but i have my disbelieves in the sony too.

the 55 are usually a lot more price for the sonys in the 65 range they are not that far apart.

sonys are far from perfect to not having HDMI 2.1 for that price is a disgrace and i wouldn't be shocked if the next years model doesn't have it too. VVR support which is most likely something you are not interested in is something sony totally ignored. but custom 96 hz BFI is possibile with it

[svengun]

As for "Are you sure that it is the case? Did LG do it with a firmware upgrade?"

I have had that TV since 2016 , always had HDR (w/4K) via HDMI

[VBB]

Wouldn't you always have dithering on when testing? It seems weird to test with it disabled if you have it enabled for playback (of course, you always have it enabled for playback).

I have no idea how my TV looks without dithering, but if madVR dithering to 8 bit has less banding than sending the TV dithered 10 bit isn't that the better mode regardless of what it looks like with dithering disabled?

The results without dithering are very interesting when trying to understand the TV's video processing but what is important for watching is the results with dithering enabled.

That's what I was trying to do. And to me, it now looks like the combination of Nvidia YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit, madVR 0-255 10-bit, TV Black Level low, non-PC mode, results in a smoothness that none of the other combos can match, regardless of what madVR's dithering is set to.

Would you be willing to confirm that with your C9? :D

[Asmodian]

Would you be willing to confirm that with your C9? :D

HDR or SDR? Both?

Dithering on or off? :)

[SamuriHL]

I just did another couple of hours of testing. Turns out for 4:2:2, Nvidia sends 12-bit regardless of the chosen bit rate. Even when set to 8-bit it sends a 12-bit signal. But, what is set in the driver does make a difference. 8-bit has lots of banding, much more than with 4:4:4 or RGB. There is also a very small difference between 10 and 12-bit, with 10-bit looking ever so slightly better when judging various gradients.

It also depends on what bit rate madVR is set to. That's what makes testing this tedious. There seems to be a bug in madVR still, where sometimes, when set to 10-bit, it switches to 8-bit, and once it does that you have to reboot Windows in order to get it back into 10-bit mode. Had me question my sanity until I realized what was going on, because only when in 10-bit does 4:2:2 look the absolute smoothest out of all combos.

Went through PC mode as well again tonight. I gotta say that YCbCr 4:4:4 8-bit throughout the chain actually looks fairly decent in HDR, and pretty smooth in SDR. Add dithering back in, and perhaps a bit of "reduce banding artifacts", and it's the best choice if you can't live without PC mode.

As Asmodian pointed out earlier, things might be (slightly) different with the newer LGs, so it's always best to do your own testing.

I've, for now, settled on 422 10 bit (in a 12 bit gift box LOL). It does look pretty good. Not without some issues, but, everything on these panels seems to be a compromise one way or the other. So for me, this is what I'll use for now.

[SamuriHL]

HDR or SDR? Both?

Dithering on or off? :)

Both.

Dithering on because that's what we use in real life. I get the whole wanting to test without dithering to see how badly screwed up the panels are, but, we know they're messed up. So you could test with both I suppose but ultimately the most useful is with it on.

[Magik Mark]

I have a C9 connected to RTX 2060. It seems the Nvidia control panel is stuck to 8bit @ 2160p. Is this a limitation of the GPU? Or maybe there's a better setting that would allow greater than 8bit settings?

[VBB]

Definitely test both SDR and HDR with both dithering off and on. Dithering will mask the worst banding, but why wouldn't you want to see what looks best before turning dithering back on? I did not come across a mode where dithering made it look better than another mode which already looked better without dithering? Does that makes sense?

[VBB]

@Magik Mark - At 60Hz, your choices for greater than 8-bit are limited to YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit/12-bit or YCbCr 4:2:0 12-bit. At lower frequencies, you can also use YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB 12-bit.

[Magik Mark]

@Magik Mark - At 60Hz, your choices for greater than 8-bit are limited to YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit/12-bit or YCbCr 4:2:0 12-bit. At lower frequencies, you can also use YCbCr 4:4:4 or RGB 12-bit.

Oh! Thanks. I configured it at 60hz 2160p RGB full

[SamuriHL]

Yea, this is where HDMI 2.1 comes in....it can do 60Hz at higher bit depths. We lowly HDMI 2.0 users...can't. :D

[Magik Mark]

Yea, this is where HDMI 2.1 comes in....it can do 60Hz at higher bit depths. We lowly HDMI 2.0 users...can't. :D

Can Nvidia support this through software upgrade on its GPUs? 2060 Perhaps?

[SamuriHL]

That's not very likely and I'm not entirely sure it's even possible. Quite a few people (cough cough nevcariel LOL) are waiting for HDMI 2.1 cards before they even consider upgrading. Envy is said to be getting a hardware upgrade when 2.1 cards are available (it's based on the RTX 2080TI I believe). So, it's very unlikely that the current cards will be HDMI 2.1 upgradable in any real way.

[nevcairiel]

They can only offer new software features like HDMI VRR, or back in the day they added 4:2:0 support to HDMI 1.4 cards, but anything that requires a higher bandwidth will require new hardware.

Hopefully 2020 is the year of HDMI 2.1

[chros]

Yes, the screen has proper 4:4:4 in PC mode. Other pixel artifacts do not mean it is not "proper 4:4:4" it just means it has other pixel artifacts. :p
As you wish :)

I just did another couple of hours of testing. Turns out for 4:2:2, Nvidia sends 12-bit regardless of the chosen bit rate. Even when set to 8-bit it sends a 12-bit signal. But, what is set in the driver does make a difference. 8-bit has lots of banding, much more than with 4:4:4 or RGB. There is also a very small difference between 10 and 12-bit, with 10-bit looking ever so slightly better when judging various gradients.

It also depends on what bit rate madVR is set to. That's what makes testing this tedious. There seems to be a bug in madVR still, where sometimes, when set to 10-bit, it switches to 8-bit, and once it does that you have to reboot Windows in order to get it back into 10-bit mode. Had me question my sanity until I realized what was going on, because only when in 10-bit does 4:2:2 look the absolute smoothest out of all combos.
Interesting, thanks!

these panel run at 100 or 120 hz adn you can't BFI using a backlight because there is no backlight so you have to send real black frames.
LG's 2019 panels are running 240Hz (older 2018/2017 panels are 120Hz), but BFI only at 120Hz (that's supposed to be one of the key features of the 2019 models, but they didn't add it at the end, probably due to chrominance overshoot issue, that just got attention around that time).
Maybe next year models :)

444 is not manageable on TV's IME due to this constraint, I'll trade full chroma for post-processing anytime.
That means no PC mode for you on an LG.

just ask rtings.
Doesn't work all the time :) (E.g. they state that LG can do proper 4:4:4, not mentioning any pixel "artifacts".)

LG are well know to handle HDR sub optimal the panasonic is better there but has pretty much the same price as the sony. the sony is also known to handle banding better something the LG is not great at
This is (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3037908-oled-tvs-hit-severe-blocking-flashing-problems-poll-18.html#post58938384) on the overpriced Panasonic GZ2000.
Sony has other issues as well, just watch Vincent's recent comparison (https://youtu.be/AuVw4oEMDgA).

[huhn]

interesting i'm not even aware of a internal connector that can send 240hz UHD.

[leeperry]

the 120 hz thing could be huge on the C9. at least madshi likes the idea of native 120 hz. he talked about madVR site adaptive BFI many years ago.

Apparently even C9 won't accept 2160p120 over HDMI: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

It seems that C8 was already able to do 120Hz FI: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8-oled

BFI calls for much faster refresh rates AFAIK so this is kind of a moot point I think.

So basically the diff between B & C is a better upscaling engine? Kinda pointless with mVR?

That means no PC mode for you on an LG.

So what's an OLED that does 444 w/ postprocessing please? Hopefully from 2018 so I can get it on sales :)

[Asmodian]

Doesn't work all the time :) (E.g. they state that LG can do proper 4:4:4, not mentioning any pixel "artifacts".)

I am still confused why you connect these? Of course RTings does not mention pixel artifacts as part of chroma subsampling, they are not related in anyway. :confused:

These kind of pixel artifacts are the result of the panel, not the processing chip that is responsible for processing chroma. Turning off PC mode does not make them go away. These artifacts are not chroma subsampling artifacts. They are simply unrelated to chroma sampling.

Really, why are these connected in your mind?

[huhn]

Apparently even C9 won't accept 2160p120 over HDMI: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

It seems that C8 was already able to do 120Hz FI: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8-oled

BFI calls for much faster refresh rates AFAIK so this is kind of a moot point I think.

So basically the diff between B & C is a better upscaling engine? Kinda pointless with mVR?
the C9 has HDMI 2.1 which can do 120 hz. but there is no player or GPU with HDMI 2.1 to test it.
all oled have at least an 120 HZ panel all highend LCDs too.
60 HZ source has the best motion quality with 60 Hz BFI with 120 you will get ghosting. 23p will always have ghosting with BFI.
i have a screen that can do 240 HZ + BFI trust me you don't want this...

So what's an OLED that does 444 w/ postprocessing please? Hopefully from 2018 so I can get it on sales :)
supposedly all not entry sonys in graphic or game picture mode.
you should always double check this with someone that owns a device is at least similar and that will not be me because i wait for HDMI 2.1.

[leeperry]

the C9 has HDMI 2.1 which can do 120 hz. but there is no player or GPU with HDMI 2.1 to test it.

Truth is I can't be hassled upgrading my GPU as even a RX580 is only 100% faster than my HD7870, if AMD ever come up with a $200ish monster GPU that warrants a serious speed increase I shall consider it..so in the meantime I do plan on using one of those dongles to output 2160p60 over DP: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Club+3D+Mini+DisplayPort+HDMI&rh=p_85%3A2470955011%2Cp_89%3AClub3D&s=price-asc-rank&dc&qid=1576347616&rnid=2528832011&ref=sr_st_price-asc-rank

Shame even newest ones can't do @120 and I don't think I care much for HDR at this point.

supposedly all not entry sonys in graphic or game picture mode.
you should always double check this with someone that owns a device is at least similar and that will not be me because i wait for HDMI 2.1.

Well yah, that's what I'm doing here but I stil feel that highest bang/bucks would be a 850€ish B8, possibly B9 if I get lucky.

[huhn]

a HD5870 is a 10 year old card so i guess you mean the RX 5700 which more then double the speed.

even just the paper numbers it is 4x as fast and this ignore IPC gains and the feature set.

even an RX 5500 XT for 190 is at least 2x the speed of your card.
not that i can recommend these broken cards my RX 5700 xt good example.

madshi hints heavily on features that use turing exclusive processing power this is not confirmed. but he is recommending turing cards.

[leeperry]

a HD5870 is a 10 year old card so i guess you mean the RX 5700 which more then double the speed.

even just the paper numbers it is 4x as fast and this ignore IPC gains and the feature set.

even an RX 5500 XT for 190 is at least 2x the speed of your card.
not that i can recommend these broken cards my RX 5700 xt good example.

madshi hints heavily on features that use turing exclusive processing power this is not confirmed. but he is recommending turing cards.
my bad but RX580 Vs HD7870 is barely +100% : https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-RX-580-vs-AMD-HD-7870/3923vs2161

and FWIR mVR provides higher performance/watt on 78xx than 5x0, Moore Law's just isn't true anymore.

I couldn't care less for nvidia graphic cards so I'll wait for AMD to catch the bullet I guess.

[huhn]

userbenchmarks is not trust worthy.
and yes polaris is a bad choice for madVR i instantly reported back in the days with my RX 480 which got outperformed by my R9 270.

NAVI doesn't have this problem. the driver is the fun part.

[chros]

i have a screen that can do 240 HZ + BFI trust me you don't want this...
Interesting, reviewers have high hopes about this, I guess we have to wait and see how it goes.

supposedly all not entry sonys in graphic or game picture mode.
you should always double check this with someone that owns a device is at least similar
"Supposedly" :) , but yes, someone has to check it: e.g. the "entry" level Sony AG8 (that has the same price as C9) doesn't even have CMS controls (let alone 1dlut/3dlut/etc.)! :D

that will not be me because i wait for HDMI 2.1
Good news, hopefully they release the next lineup with it. We will be waiting for you :)

I am still confused why you connect these? Of course RTings does not mention pixel artifacts as part of chroma subsampling, they are not related in anyway. :confused:

These kind of pixel artifacts are the result of the panel, not the processing chip that is responsible for processing chroma. Turning off PC mode does not make them go away. These artifacts are not chroma subsampling artifacts. They are simply unrelated to chroma sampling.

Really, why are these connected in your mind?
:) It's not just me, but the question is why they aren't not connected for You? :)

But seriously, these are *not* "pixel artifacts are the result of the panel", but result of picture processing. Try it with 60Hz, it should be proper 4:4:4.
I refer to black box testing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-box_testing) (since we don't know much about the different stages of the internal processing chain, and even if we would know we still wouldn't be able to do much about it), all I/we care about is:
input 4:4:4 -> TV -> no 4:4:4 output :)

So what's an OLED that does 444 w/ postprocessing please? Hopefully from 2018 so I can get it on sales :)

Not LG, not Panasonic, not Philips, I don't know much about Sony, HiSense, Toshiba, etc.
But Xiaomi and Huawei will also jump into the oled TV business (http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=38031) (with LG panels) next year, hopefully making the competition way more interesting! :)

If the price does matter for you, then go ahead with the cheapest LG Oled at a given size (I also have the B8), none of them are perfect. :) But don't buy a used one or one without warranty! :)

[chros]

that's supposed to be one of the key features of the 2019 models, but they didn't add it at the end, probably due to chrominance overshoot issue, that just got attention around that time

Btw, here's a good explanation (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3037908-oled-tvs-hit-severe-blocking-flashing-problems-poll-18.html#post58974872) how the fix for the chrominance overshoot impacted the planned BFI in 2019 LG Oleds.

[huhn]

Good news, hopefully they release the next lineup with it. We will be waiting for you :)

not going to be an OLED.
you guys are doing to much good work in showing there dreadful flaws.
and i'm prude to say that i managed to burn in an LCD in my live.

[chros]

not going to be an OLED.
Oh, noooo ... :) Then what are you doing here?! :D

[Asmodian]

input 4:4:4 -> TV -> no 4:4:4 output :)


I do get 4:4:4 output with 60 Hz PC mode, every pixel obviously has its own chroma value and if I use alternating chroma values every other pixel is different. There is no blending of chroma values between pixels. That is what 4:4:4 means. :confused:

[mark0077]

I'm surprised nobody else here is reporting the issue when in YCbCr 444 8-bit mode, when going fullscreen windowed (10-bit) mode with HDR content, the screen goes a very strong tinge of green. I am seeing many posts on nvidias forums over the past 2 years. I don't see any good solution though apart from things like restarting the graphics driver which sometimes kicks it into working mode. Everything from DDU / clean install of drivers, to Windows re-install doesn't fix it.

When in madVR windowed mode, there is no issue at all with YCbCr 444 8-bit 60hz (nor non direct X 11 full screen mode). I'm quite suite at this point that its not HDMI limitation as it also happens at 23hz.

Is anyone able to reproduce this strong green tinge when going fullscreen windowed mode in madVR, with an up to date nvidia driver, up to date Windows 10 on their C9 or any display for that matter?

[cyberscott]

I'm surprised nobody else here is reporting the issue when in YCbCr 444 8-bit mode, when going fullscreen windowed (10-bit) mode with HDR content, the screen goes a very strong tinge of green. I am seeing many posts on nvidias forums over the past 2 years. I don't see any good solution though apart from things like restarting the graphics driver which sometimes kicks it into working mode. Everything from DDU / clean install of drivers, to Windows re-install doesn't fix it.

When in madVR windowed mode, there is no issue at all with YCbCr 444 8-bit 60hz. I'm quite suite at this point that its not HDMI limitation as it also happens at 23hz.

Is anyone able to reproduce this strong green tinge when going fullscreen windowed mode in madVR, with an up to date nvidia driver, up to date Windows 10 on their C9 or any display for that matter?
I have a C9, 2080 Ti, latest drivers for nivida and latest Windows 10 version and have never seen a green tint as you have described when in YcbCr 444 8 bit mode, using madVR and HDR.
Are you directly connected to to C9 or going through a receiver first?
Also, HDMI cable could be a factor as well. Are you using HDMI 2.0b Premium Certified cables? A loose connection on either end or internal short in the cable can cause issues too. If possible, change the cable out and see if it is repeatable. Also, try a different HDMI port on TV or different HDMI on your video card, if available.
I've had perfectly working HDMI cables suddenly go bad on me in the past, causing the picture to go into a 16 bit like color scheme when pushing a high bit rate content. I always keep a couple of known good 2.0b cables for troubleshooting or replacement.

[SamuriHL]

I've not seen that issue, either. That would suck.

[mark0077]

No problem, thought some of you may have seen it. Maybe its the cable although I have tried a few (all non certified), or maybe its my GTX 980. Seemed because in DX9 windowed mode its fine, and in DX11 fullscreen its not, i thought it was back to being an nvidia bug. Cheers for the inputs anyways guys.

[chros]

I do get 4:4:4 output with 60 Hz PC mode, every pixel obviously has its own chroma value and if I use alternating chroma values every other pixel is different. There is no blending of chroma values between pixels. That is what 4:4:4 means. :confused:
Yes, but we don't get the same result @ 23/24p, do we? :) What does it tell you?

[Asmodian]

On my C9 I get exactly the same results at 23/24p as I do at 60p. I can switch band and forth between 23 and 60 Hz and I notice no change in the image even when close enough to resolve individual pixels in the ChromaRes test image.

What differences do you notice?

[chros]

What differences do you notice?
I just checked it, and there's no difference between 23/24p and 60p at 2160p.
Maybe we don't talk about the same thing? Take look at the first section "Chroma 4:4:4" of this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836).

[SamuriHL]

Chros and others that have and use calman on OLED. Calman was just updated with a new 3dlut algorithm that handles OLED panel drift better. It's a fixed point lut with 9 17 or 21 points. The 9 point does nearly 800 measurements the 17 point is over 9000 etc. I ran the 9 point last night and while my results weren't what I necessarily wanted and I need to redo it today, I can definitely see where this is going to be awesome for us.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[leeperry]

Oh and to be perfectly clear ABL and ASBL have become non-issues on B8 and later models? Asking because ABL was completely unbearable on older 1080p models but max brightness was in the 100 cd/m2 region IIRC, newer 4K models are >150 so no nasty visible compression at work? I've looked really hard at 4K models and couldn't notice anything when OTOH it was instantly jumping to my eyes on 1080p's which got me to wonder whether buyers are blind :o

I also read that ASBL would trigger in movies with little movements?

And how can they boast about HDR when max brightness is 150 cd/m2 anyhow :confused:

[huhn]

simple they have a stable brightness in the ~150 region they can be far brighter for a smaller part of the screen.

even the old 1080p model could reach more then 300.

AFAIK ASBL is defeatable in the LG service menu.

[leeperry]

right but I spent a lot of time watching those 1080p LG's as their price was dropping constantly, first problem was the poor aperture ratio that gave a very nasty mosquito screen effect but just as bad was the constant brightness limitation, a store had a US football demo and friggin TV was constantly pumping in order to reach 100 cd/m2 max :o

B8 is 141 max on SDR, barely enough but still good enough to avoid pumping I think: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b8-oled

B9 is 190 which sounds good: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b9-oled

C8 158: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8-oled

C9 151: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c9-oled

It all might very well boil down to firmware and panel discrepancy but based on these figures I'd be better off getting a B9 huh

I can't be hassled to look for 1080p review but it was in the 100 region so clearly not enough and it's good to see that they're working things out, LG seem to claim that ABL is enforced to avoid burn-in but a wild guess would be that it's here to cap power consumption as EU regulations require low figures AFAIK.

Short story is that those OLED's are all prototypes, I would certainly feel utterly butt-hurt if I had bought one of those nasty 1080p sets.

You can't disable ASBL AFAIK, or at least it won't survive a power reset.

[VBB]

You can't disable ABL, but you certainly can disable ASBL permanently. I've had my C7 for more than two years now, and with OLED Light set to 45 (more than 150 cd/m²), I've never noticed ABL kicking in. This is in a completely dark room, where it would be very noticeable.

[SamuriHL]

Yea that was the first thing I did when I got my service remote. That thing had to go.

[chros]

Chros and others that have and use calman on OLED. Calman was just updated with a new 3dlut algorithm that handles OLED panel drift better. It's a fixed point lut with 9 17 or 21 points. The 9 point does nearly 800 measurements the 17 point is over 9000 etc. I ran the 9 point last night and while my results weren't what I necessarily wanted and I need to redo it today, I can definitely see where this is going to be awesome for us.
Hmm, interesting, I'll be curious how it goes! :) (I don't have Claman and LS either btw.) Take a look at Leon's post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-20.html#post58985224) and also the link in it (he compared LS with Claman :))
I'm doing SDR 3dluts for madvr now as well, in a specail way :) I'll post about it later.

You can't disable ASBL AFAIK, or at least it won't survive a power reset.

You can't disable ABL, but you certainly can disable ASBL permanently. I've had my C7 for more than two years now, and with OLED Light set to 45 (more than 150 cd/m²), I've never noticed ABL kicking in. This is in a completely dark room, where it would be very noticeable.
Others are right, you can get rid of ASBL (and that's the only one), but there's at least a 3rd one as well, take a look at this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) for links as well.

right but I spent a lot of time watching those 1080p LG's as their price was dropping constantly, first problem was the poor aperture ratio that gave a very nasty mosquito screen effect
What is this exactly? Do you have a link for it?

but just as bad was the constant brightness limitation, a store had a US football demo and friggin TV was constantly pumping in order to reach 100 cd/m2 max :o
That's what ANSD does/can do from 2018 models :)

B9 is 190 which sounds good: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/b9-oled
This can't be right: an entry level model is better than a bigger one?! :) It should be around the same value as the others.
But ~140 nits with gamma 2.2 is enough for day usage (not direct sunlight :) ), 120 nits or less for evening/night.

But that's should be your least concern: near black banding, tinting, dead pixels, black crush, flashing macroblocks, etc :)
Read on these topics on avforums and avsforum as well.

LG seem to claim that ABL is enforced to avoid burn-in but a wild guess would be that it's here to cap power consumption as EU regulations require low figures AFAIK.
Bullocks, it prevents the TV to burn down your house! :D

[SamuriHL]

Hmm, interesting, I'll be curious how it goes! :) (I don't have Claman and LS either btw.) Take a look at Leon's post (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-20.html#post58985224) and also the link in it (he compared LS with Claman :))
I'm doing SDR 3dluts for madvr now as well, in a specail way :) I'll post about it later.


I have a lot more work to do. So far I tried a 9 point (~780 measurements) and the DE is too high for my taste. Average ~2.1 and max @4.5. My feeling is that a 17 or 21 point is going to be needed to get better results, but, obviously that'll take longer. I think the 17 is like 9000 or some odd measurements. I can see where this is going to be very beneficial if I can get it dialed in. The fact that it handles OLED drift now is very good. More playing is needed. And yes, I know LS is considered more accurate than Calman, but, Calman was fairly cheap and much easier to learn. I'm still quite new to calibrating this C8 so I'm learning. I gotta say, these panels are a pain in the ass around near black to dial in the grayscale. Getting it right brings out incredible shadow detail, but, my i1 display pro does NOT like near black, even with the modified profile. It helps, but, it's still painful. lol

[mark0077]

Not sure if everyone's aware, but for us European C9 owners, the new firmware that adds G-Sync for newer Nvidia cards is available to download on the LG site. 04.71.05. Heres the link for the 65CPLA model.

https://www.lg.com/uk/support/software-firmware?search=OLED65C9PLA&pageVisibleFlag=2

[leeperry]

You can't disable ABL, but you certainly can disable ASBL permanently. I've had my C7 for more than two years now, and with OLED Light set to 45 (more than 150 cd/m²), I've never noticed ABL kicking in. This is in a completely dark room, where it would be very noticeable.

OK thanks and where do you set that please? using websocat?

Yea that was the first thing I did when I got my service remote. That thing had to go.

Service Remote? Why not websocat?

So you don't see any pumping on high brightness movies due to ABL/ANSD on your C8?

What is this exactly? Do you have a link for it?
I just mean that distance between pixels was too high, so much that it looked like a mosquito net on top of the TV. Known issue on some 720p/1080p triLCD projectors, I still wonder how anyone could bear those 1080p LG OLED's with such poor aperture ratio and nasty 110 cd/m2 ABL/ANSD :eek:

That's what ANSD does/can do from 2018 models

Oh you got me, there's a third one huh and yes I guess big white digital displays on top of that US football demo was putting it on its knees forcing the TV to constantly pump brightness in order to reach a miserable max 100 cd/m2.

Non-issue on your B8, right :confused:

This can't be right: an entry level model is better than a bigger one?! :) It should be around the same value as the others.
But ~140 nits with gamma 2.2 is enough for day usage (not direct sunlight :) ), 120 nits or less for evening/night.
I usually calibrate around 135 cd/m2 but I'm still scared of what would appear to be ANSD, also we dunno how those white OLED's will age so I wouldn't mind some extra brightness to start with.

But that's should be your least concern: near black banding, tinting, dead pixels, black crush, flashing macroblocks, etc :)
Read on these topics on avforums and avsforum as well.
OK thanks, will check it out.

[SamuriHL]

Service Remote? Why not websocat?

So you don't see any pumping on high brightness movies due to ABL/ANSD on your C8?


I've no idea what websocat is. The service remote allows me to get to the service menu with the push of a button and a special code (0413 to be precise). This was the ONLY thing I've changed in that menu so far.

Nope, no pumping at all that I've seen. My daytime SDR mode is ~220 nits or so with 2.2 gamma. Nighttime SDR is ~120 nits at the moment with a 2.4 gamma. I've not seen any brightness issues.

[chros]

Service Remote? Why not websocat?
...
Non-issue on your B8, right :confused:
:) It depends on the content you watch: if it has logo or scoreboard with sport then it can.
ASBL can only be disabled in In-Start SM, not via api.

My daytime SDR mode is ~220 nits or so with 2.2 gamma.
Wha'?! :) Are you sitting outside in the garden? :) What Oled light does it correspond to? 100?

[leeperry]

service remote allows me to get to the service menu with the push of a button and a special code (0413 to be precise).
And where do you get that remote please? I got a bunch of coupons on amazon I could use for that.

Any link with indications of what codes to mess with? :D

:) It depends on the content you watch: if it has logo or scoreboard with sport then it can.
ASBL can only be disabled in In-Start SM, not via api.
What's "In-Start SM"? Service Menu? Gotta have a special remote for that? No app or sequence of keys on regular remote?

In that link you mentioned they claim that you can disable ANSD.

[Asmodian]

The SURE app worked well for me in Android for accessing the service menus. The app just opens the menu, it does not set it directly with an API.

[SamuriHL]

Wha'?! :) Are you sitting outside in the garden? :) What Oled light does it correspond to? 100?

LMAO. I don't use it very often. Only when the sun is coming directly through my picture window. It's I think 85 OLED. So no, not 100, but, WAY higher than my regular "night" mode which I typically use unless, as I said, the sun is glaring through the window.

[SamuriHL]

And where do you get that remote please? I got a bunch of coupons on amazon I could use for that.

Any link with indications of what codes to mess with? :D


What's "In-Start SM"? Service Menu? Gotta have a special remote for that? No app or sequence of keys on regular remote?

In that link you mentioned they claim that you can disable ANSD.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075M91STG

That's the one I grabbed. In-Start SM is the button on the remote. Check the picture.

[chros]

Any link with indications of what codes to mess with? :D
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv.html

In that link you mentioned they claim that you can disable ANSD.
You can't, probably you misunderstood something.

[Magik Mark]

Guys,

Is there a way in madvr to adjust the luminance of subtitle in HDR? It's so bright. Maybe around 50 nits

[mark0077]

Guys, for those of you using madVR with an LG C9 that's calibrated in game mode, can you share your calibrated settings. Mainly I'm looking to see what colour temperature is the most accurate. It defaults to "Medium" Colour temperature in Game Mode, and "Color" of 55. In other modes these seem to default to "Warm 2" and 50. Warm 2 looks very warm to my eyes when in Game Mode. I assume its not D65. Can anyone share their game mode / PC mode calibrated settings?

One more question for you guys. I have settled on YCbCr 444 8-bit for SDR content and RGB 8-bit Full for HDR. When outputting 8-bit, do you guys set your madVR display properties "the native display bitdepth is" to 8 bit or 10 bit/auto? I assume outputting in 10 bit, its Windows that decides what to do with 10 bit to 8 bit conversion?

Last question. Do you guys know of a way to make madVR, or via some shortcut, quickly switch between YCbCr and RGB with different content. Its very annoying to do it manually every time :) Is madVR capable of doing this or triggering an external command somehow to do it? (If not I might create a switcher for it).

[chros]

Is there a way in madvr to adjust the luminance of subtitle in HDR? It's so bright. Maybe around 50 nits
I don't think so, but if you use srt subs then your player can (e.g. mpc-hc/be with its built-in sub engine).

[leeperry]

Am I getting this right and there's no PIP on those TV's huh? I use it all the time watching TV in a small rectangle on the right bottom while browsing the web :o

Multiview seems worthless for my needs, oh well gonna get a Sammy LCD for half-price over OLED, I'll get PIP and no trouble with burn-in either and I want a curved TV anyhow

LG is always full of fail such as all those bs ASBL/ASL/HDR with 150cd/m2 limitation, astounding :o

Apparently OLED's from german brands such as Loewe do PIP but too pricey I think

[Teddy_McFluff]

Hey guys new to the forums, had been reading up on various articles and can't really get a concrete answers on some settings that I have.

I know it's a long one but I know some folks prolly want these answered, or prolly been answered, I just didn't/couldn't find it, for that I'm sorry.

Got a LG C8 on a HTPC with a 6850k/32gb/1080ti (If this matters)

Nvidia CP set on RGB, FULL, 8bit

I use Non-pc mode to watch movies and PC mode when I play games on Steam, leaving the Nvidia CP on RGB FULL

I'm using Potplayer w/ madvr w/ LAV filters & XySubfilter loaded. Built in (transfomr filters, etc.) stuff are all disabled (as far as I know)

I'm also using either ISF DR or BR (Gamma 2.2, Color Gamut: WIDE, Black Level: HIGH) Sharpness: 0 to all (even HDR [Cinema, Warm1])

Questions:

Nvidia CP is set @ 60hz 4k RGB Full 8bit, should I have the black level set to High or Low??
The Potplayer background when I play my files are greyish but then turns to the correct black level when it loads, is it the potplayer itself or do I have to re-adjust my brightness/contrast? Which is @ 50 & 85 respectively.

When playing HDR via passthrough in madVR, do I have to set my black level to High as well? As the scenes are dark when its set to low but kinda grey when high, again I might have to adjust my brightness/contrast.

When playing SDR/HDR games on PC mode, do I also have to set my black level to High, since I have my Nvidia CP on RGB Full???

How can I achieve Limited, Full, Limited? I know I gotta put madvr to TV levels, Nvidia CP to Full, C8 to Low but what about the Potplayer?? I see "Colorspace & offset/levels" in the Video tab and it has several option that I think I have to mess with, or not. These are what's really bothering me....

These are the options:
Under Colorspaces:
Ycbcr <--> RGB Conv: Auto, ITU 601, ITU 709, SMPTE 240M
Ycbcr color range: Auto, Limited, Full
Ycbcr to RGB color range: Limited, Full

Offset/levels:
Input: 16~235, Output: 0~255 (Do I have to mess with this????) Do I have to invert this setting to become limited??

Please let me know what to change so it'll display the correct levels.

Also about bitdepth, is it beneficial just to set my C8 to 8bit in madvr? Or do I have to set it to Auto? I'm also concerned about HDR content, doesn't it need to be in 10bit??

Under Calibration in madvr, I got 3 profiles 2160, 1080, 720. What color gamut/calibration should I put each profile in, right now its bt.2020, DCI-P3, DCI-P3, Let me know if need to change them.

I also noticed setting my color gamut on the C8 on Auto, the colors are kinda meh, washed out even, I've set it to wide for both SDR/HDR, should I change this or is this viewer preference???

again I'm sorry for all these question, I just wanted to be better informed and so I can better enjoy my C8 as well.

Happy New yr Guys/Gals!!

[Asmodian]

My experiance is with a C7 and C9 but these options behaved similarly on both screens and I understand the C8 works the same way.

Nvidia CP is set @ 60hz 4k RGB Full 8bit, should I have the black level set to High or Low??
The Potplayer background when I play my files are greyish but then turns to the correct black level when it loads, is it the potplayer itself or do I have to re-adjust my brightness/contrast? Which is @ 50 & 85 respectively.

High. High = Full range, Low = limited range. 50 & 85 is correct, don't change it. Try something besides Potplayer. :p

When playing HDR via passthrough in madVR, do I have to set my black level to High as well? As the scenes are dark when its set to low but kinda grey when high, again I might have to adjust my brightness/contrast.

Do not adjust brightness/contrast. Those options probably shouldn't exist on these screens, or at least hidden in some CMS menu. OLED light is the only brightness control that should be used.

Again, low/high is still a simple decision. Does your GPU switch to YCbCr limited range for HDR? If yes, use low, if not use high (if madVR is set to low as well you get double range compression which is never correct). With madVR HDR should work at the same ranges as SDR even with passthrough. Passthrough is for the metadata and HDR tone mapping, not the more basic video signal configuration. A grey black on a LG OLED set to high means you are sending it limited range data. Or the other way around, if absolute black is black with the OLED on high you are sending it full range data.

When playing SDR/HDR games on PC mode, do I also have to set my black level to High, since I have my Nvidia CP on RGB Full???

Yes

How can I achieve Limited, Full, Limited? I know I gotta put madvr to TV levels, Nvidia CP to Full, C8 to Low but what about the Potplayer?? I see "Colorspace & offset/levels" in the Video tab and it has several option that I think I have to mess with, or not. These are what's really bothering me....

You have your options correct, but everything besides madVR would be wrong (Windows is always full and the TV is set to limited). I actually use the opposite, limited -> full -> limited. This is theoretically less optimal but my C9 does better with limited range input in PC mode and my 2080 Ti seems to dither Window's full range output to limited range YCbCr 444 reasonably well.

I would hope Potplayer was not messing with the video by default so you should not need to change anything. :scared:

Try with MPC-HC, or something else that doesn't mess with the video. Does it look the same?

Also about bitdepth, is it beneficial just to set my C8 to 8bit in madvr? Or do I have to set it to Auto? I'm also concerned about HDR content, doesn't it need to be in 10bit??

Leave the display set to 8 bit. HDR does not need to be 10 bit with madVR because of the high quality dithering and I do not trust these OLEDs' internal processing >8 bit in PC mode. They seem to handle 10 bit better in non-PC mode but I still see no advantages to using 10 bit input in any mode. These TVs have terrible HDR in PC mode so there is nothing wrong with using 10 bit if you feel like it but do not sacrifice anything to get it. :(

Under Calibration in madvr, I got 3 profiles 2160, 1080, 720. What color gamut/calibration should I put each profile in, right now its bt.2020, DCI-P3, DCI-P3, Let me know if need to change them.

You should not need to have profiles for different resolutions. Simply set it to DCI-P3 if you have the color gamut set to wide or BT.709 if set to extended. I like wide, it is closer to DCI-P3 than extended is to BT.709. Never use BT.2020, that is way too wide for any consumer display's native gamut.

I also noticed setting my color gamut on the C8 on Auto, the colors are kinda meh, washed out even, I've set it to wide for both SDR/HDR, should I change this or is this viewer preference???

It agree, I like wide better for both HDR and SDR, but it really is too wide for BT.709 content. :o

Extended is a bit wider than BT.709 (and a bit off) but Wide is not quite wide enough for DCI-P3 (but fairly accurate). Using the standard BT.709 -> DCI-P3 will look a bit washed out but with the TV on wide DCI-P3 is much more correct than BT.709. This is the main reason using a 3DLUT calibration file for this conversion is beneficial.

again I'm sorry for all these question, I just wanted to be better informed and so I can better enjoy my C8 as well.

Keep asking! All these options do make more sense once you finally understand what they really mean and get comfortable with the many tradeoffs watching video on consumer displays requires today. It may take a while. :)

[tyguy]

Are you guys able to get custom resolutions to stick? I'm repeating frames every 4 minutes. I went to set a custom resolution and had mad vr measure timings. I selected highly compatible ones that say they will drop frames once every 6 hours or even once a day, but when I go to use it i'm still dropping or repeating a frame once every 4 minutes.

[Asmodian]

Custom resolutions are a huge pain. I don't bother with them anymore and simply use smooth motion.

I have been able to get them to work but in the past but then I need to get the working again after a driver update, etc. Smooth motion looks great on an OLED at 60Hz but I am impatiently waiting for a GPU with HDMI 2.1 so I can use 120Hz.

[biship]

Hi Asmodian. I have a C9. I play a mix of 1080p SDR & 4K HDR. I do not have external 3DLUT files.

You are saying to set MadVR to:
"this display is already calibrated", DCI-P3, pure power curve, 2.20 & set the TV to Wide Color Gamut? (more accurate)
or alternatively:
"this display is already calibrated", BT.709, pure power curve, 2.20 & set the TV to Extended Color Gamut? (washed out)

Disable GPU gamma ramps?
Report BT.2020 to display?

Here is a typical MKV:
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics : PQ
Matrix coefficients : BT.2020 non-constant
Mastering display color primaries : Display P3
Mastering display luminance : min: 0.0001 cd/m2, max: 1000 cd/m2
Maximum Content Light Level : 1477 cd/m2
Maximum Frame-Average Light Level : 446 cd/m2

[Klaus1189]

so I can use 120Hz.

way to low, you need at least 360 Hz (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=20&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjClP2IjPLmAhUD3aQKHXGVC8sQFjATegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Frog.asus.com%2Farticles%2Fgaming-monitors%2Fthe-rog-swift-360hz-is-the-worlds-fastest-esports-gaming-monitor%2F&usg=AOvVaw1Ne5kKUJZshYgDesEdKMMK) :p

[tyguy]

Custom resolutions are a huge pain. I don't bother with them anymore and simply use smooth motion.

I have been able to get them to work but in the past but then I need to get the working again after a driver update, etc. Smooth motion looks great on an OLED at 60Hz but I am impatiently waiting for a GPU with HDMI 2.1 so I can use 120Hz.

The issue I have with smooth motion is I get flickering with hdr content. Specifically credit crawls are a nightmare. The text pulses like crazy.

[Asmodian]

You are saying to set MadVR to:
"this display is already calibrated", DCI-P3, pure power curve, 2.20 & set the TV to Wide Color Gamut? (more accurate)
or alternatively:
"this display is already calibrated", BT.709, pure power curve, 2.20 & set the TV to Extended Color Gamut? (washed out)


The first should be (more accurate, but slightly washed out)
The second should be (less accurate and oversaturated)
But those are the correct options, wide~=DCI-P3, extended~= BT.709.
I also use pure power curve, 2.40 and I calibrated the TVs internal LUT to that starting from its BT.1886 setting, which measured very close to 2.40 out of the box.

Disable GPU gamma ramps?
Report BT.2020 to display?

No

The issue I have with smooth motion is I get flickering with hdr content. Specifically credit crawls are a nightmare. The text pulses like crazy.

That would definitely be an issue. Do you have "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" checked? What happens if you tone map with pixel shaders to a target peak nits of 600?

I can see how smooth motion does not play well with current HDR displays. I am not sure I ever tested white credits over black background in HDR with smooth motion. A blended frame will have a VERY different peak brightness compared to a non-blended one in that case. The TV might react badly too. I used a matched 23 Hz refresh rate when watching HDR movies, which I haven't done in a while. :o

Getting one tuned 23Hz refresh rate with madVR's tool has always worked well for me, though getting any other custom refresh rate is usually much trickier. Start with no custom refresh rates setup and reboot after setting it up. A "clean install" of the Nvidia drivers (the option in the installer) has worked for me when something went bad with the custom display modes.

[tyguy]

The first should be (more accurate, but slightly washed out)

The second should be (less accurate and oversaturated)

But those are the correct options, wide~=DCI-P3, extended~= BT.709.

I also use pure power curve, 2.40 and I calibrated the TVs internal LUT to that starting from its BT.1886 setting, which measured very close to 2.40 out of the box.







No







That would definitely be an issue. Do you have "don't use linear light for smooth motion frame blending" checked? What happens if you tone map with pixel shaders to a target peak nits of 600?



I can see how smooth motion does not play well with current HDR displays. I am not sure I ever tested white credits over black background in HDR with smooth motion. A blended frame will have a VERY different peak brightness compared to a non-blended one in that case. The TV might react badly too. I used a matched 23 Hz refresh rate when watching HDR movies, which I haven't done in a while. :o



Getting one tuned 23Hz refresh rate with madVR's tool has always worked well for me, though getting any other custom refresh rate is usually much trickier. Start with no custom refresh rates setup and reboot after setting it up. A "clean install" of the Nvidia drivers (the option in the installer) has worked for me when something went bad with the custom display modes.


I’ll try that. I’m thinking of getting a shield for playing hdr content because these dropped and repeated frames due to clock variance annoys me. I can use madvr for 1080 p non hdr content I want to upscale.

[QBhd]

Are you guys able to get custom resolutions to stick? I'm repeating frames every 4 minutes. I went to set a custom resolution and had mad vr measure timings. I selected highly compatible ones that say they will drop frames once every 6 hours or even once a day, but when I go to use it i'm still dropping or repeating a frame once every 4 minutes.

The only way I could get custom resolutions to work is to use CRU and delete all the "standard" 2160 resolutions.

Here is where to find them:

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_1.png

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_2.png

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_3.png

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_4.png

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_5.png

Once I removed those, I was able to use either madVR or the AMD Radeon Custom resolutions.

From what I have been able to gather, those "standard" resolutions completely override ALL other custom resolutions, even the ones you create with CRU. And madVR has no idea this is going on. So it will "optimize" based on the custom resolution created, but that is not the resolution that is being used. So no matter what you do, it will always report the same frame drops. I banged my head against this for weeks. Once I started deleting resolutions in the EDID with CRU, that's when I stumbled upon this solution.

There is one caveat... only RGB 8-bit resolutions are created. But for us LG OLED users this is actually the best option anyway. Color banding is horrendous with 10-bit or more... and YCbCr is just wrong.

QB

[mark0077]

QB, just on your point on YCbCr, you will see on this forum and avsforums, most agree YCbCr is much better than RGB at least in SDR. It's really noticibly better on my C9 so yeah custom resolutions have a big downside here. I started playing with visual studio and the nvapi libraries to try to create a display mode switcher that also allows YCbCr to be used but it's a big learning curve so no joy so far.

[QBhd]

I know about the YCbCr "findings" of other users. But why would you want the graphics card to do any color space conversion, especially one it's not really designed for. I tested YCbCr myself and did not notice any improvement in color banding compared to RGB-8bit (HDR source GoT - The Long Night), in fact I am pretty sure it was worse. Plus it seems like a real pain to switch back and forth between color spaces based on content.

QB

[VBB]

We should always make it obvious when we're talking about PC mode or normal HDMI mode. Otherwise, it can be very confusing.

I don't use PC mode, because I don't play games or do any browsing/desktop activity on my HTPC. 4:4:4 would be nice, I'll admit that, but for media I can do without it, until LG finally get their act together. In non-PC mode, I really never had any issues with RGB full 8-bit. In fact, I used that for almost two years, but I felt it was necessary to use madVR's "reduce banding" feature at its lowest setting. Now that I've made the switch to YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit, "reduce banding" is not needed any longer. I have yet to see any banding on any quality content in both SDR and HDR.

For me, it's a question of what does the TV handle best. Conversions are unavoidable anyway. I say everyone test this for themselves, if they feel like it. I'm still curious if my "findings" apply only to the 7 series or also to the more recent panels.

One thing that I'm not entirely sure about, so if someone has any input...: Is it possible that the virtually non-existent banding with 4:2:2 10-bit is the result of Nvidia cards dithering in that mode, but not in RGB?

EDIT: Then again, why would the video card do any dithering at higher than 8-bit with a 10-bit display?

[mark0077]

I know about the YCbCr "findings" of other users. But why would you want the graphics card to do any color space conversion, especially one it's not really designed for. I tested YCbCr myself and did not notice any improvement in color banding compared to RGB-8bit (HDR source GoT - The Long Night), in fact I am pretty sure it was worse. Plus it seems like a real pain to switch back and forth between color spaces based on content.

QB
All of my comments above are in PC / Game mode.

For me there's no switching back needed. I'm leaving it at YCbCr for everything right now, desktop / games / SDR. Once you set the TV to Auto, it assumes Limited range and High range depending on whether you feed it YCbCr Limited or RGB High so there's no work needed on the TV side. It looks a lot better to me. I actually put a banding test pattern as my desktop wallpaper for a while and even my wife can see the difference. There's a few scenes in movies where I had switched to RGB and noticed because of the increased banding, but to be honest I'd say for 80% of content its hard to notice, but definitely RGB 8-bit has fairly bad banding compared to YCbCr444 8-bit for SDR.

I went through all modes from RGB to the various YCbCr4XX as well as bit depths and made note of my banding results in each if anyone's interested. The only ones I scored "Great" were the YCbCr444 8-bit and YCbCr422 10 and 12 bit ones ones. The other combinations were a "Medium" to "Bad" when I went through each and took notes, in SDR. I scored RGB 8 bit a "Medium" to my eyes for SDR.

The rare time we watch a new HDR movie, I sometimes switch to RGB 8-bit as there its the best to my eyes (YCbCr444 makes my GTX 980 show a green tinted image for some reason), but for the most part for all other content I don't see any downsides to leaving the TV constantly in YCbCr 444 8-bit. The upside being its less banding in everything from desktop / youtube / web / SDR use. If something like the madVR display mode switcher could also switch to YCbCr4XX of different depths, I think this could be automated to switch to the best mode for different types of content (SDR or HDR). Is this possible madshi?


One thing that I'm not entirely sure about, so if someone has any input...: Is it possible that the virtually non-existent banding with 4:2:2 10-bit is the result of Nvidia cards dithering in that mode, but not in RGB?

EDIT: Then again, why would the video card do any dithering at higher than 8-bit with a 10-bit display?

Yeah I would also like to see in various combinations, what windows / the nvidia drivers themselves do, and if theres anything that can be done under the hood in the nvidia drivers or windows itself to improve this. I'm thinking the likes of wasapi for audio here where we all strived to avoid the windows mixer (I know its not a perfect analogy, but maybe theres something here that can be tweaked).

[tyguy]

I’ve had issues with dark scenes using pc mode and rgb full 8 bit with hdr.

I get some sort of ghosting and what looks like oil floating in scenes with clouds.

Reinstall well lit scenes are fine but dark content is just brutal.

Switching to anything else other than pc removes those issues, but then you remove 444 capability.

[tyguy]

The only way I could get custom resolutions to work is to use CRU and delete all the "standard" 2160 resolutions.



Here is where to find them:



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_1.png



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_2.png



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_3.png



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_4.png



http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/Screenshot_5.png



Once I removed those, I was able to use either madVR or the AMD Radeon Custom resolutions.



From what I have been able to gather, those "standard" resolutions completely override ALL other custom resolutions, even the ones you create with CRU. And madVR has no idea this is going on. So it will "optimize" based on the custom resolution created, but that is not the resolution that is being used. So no matter what you do, it will always report the same frame drops. I banged my head against this for weeks. Once I started deleting resolutions in the EDID with CRU, that's when I stumbled upon this solution.



There is one caveat... only RGB 8-bit resolutions are created. But for us LG OLED users this is actually the best option anyway. Color banding is horrendous with 10-bit or more... and YCbCr is just wrong.



QB


Thanks for this. Do you have to do this every time you install new drivers? If something goes wrong will ddu and fresh install restore everything?

[QBhd]

I have not had to do it with driver updates... but I am pretty sure a DDU will reset it... but not 100% sure since I have not tried that... but if it does, it's a simple thing to remove those "standard" 3840x2160 resolutions. And if you want to reset what CRU does it is as simple as deleting the active registry EDID at the top and restarting.

As to the RGB talk above:

I did ditch PC mode and just use normal HDMI. I have a C8. I am also AMD. And there is no "auto" for black levels on these TV's (just High and Low).

I put far more weight on 4k HDR since if you're going to sit and watch a movie for two hours with friends and family, you want your TV to be at peak picture quality. As for SDR content, the RGB 8-bit is good enough.

QB

[iSeries]

When you send these LG OLEDs RGB, the first thing it does is convert to limited range ycbcr. Yes it does do some subsequent processing in RGB and ultimately ends up as RGB, but that initial first step is convert to ycbcr. So my suspicion is nvidia is simply doing a better job of that conversion. After VBBs suggestion to try 10bit 422 ycbcr in nvidia control panel (TV normal HDMI mode) I tested it for myself vs 8 bit RGB (madVR limited/gpu full/black level low) and it does look a little smoother. Not night and day but a little smoother.

[VBB]

(madVR limited/gpu full/black level low)

You mean madVR full/GPU limited/black level low? For the YCbCr, I mean.

[Teddy_McFluff]

My experiance is with a C7 and C9 but these options behaved similarly on both screens and I understand the C8 works the same way.



High. High = Full range, Low = limited range. 50 & 85 is correct, don't change it. Try something besides Potplayer. :p



Do not adjust brightness/contrast. Those options probably shouldn't exist on these screens, or at least hidden in some CMS menu. OLED light is the only brightness control that should be used.

Again, low/high is still a simple decision. Does your GPU switch to YCbCr limited range for HDR? If yes, use low, if not use high (if madVR is set to low as well you get double range compression which is never correct). With madVR HDR should work at the same ranges as SDR even with passthrough. Passthrough is for the metadata and HDR tone mapping, not the more basic video signal configuration. A grey black on a LG OLED set to high means you are sending it limited range data. Or the other way around, if absolute black is black with the OLED on high you are sending it full range data.



Yes



You have your options correct, but everything besides madVR would be wrong (Windows is always full and the TV is set to limited). I actually use the opposite, limited -> full -> limited. This is theoretically less optimal but my C9 does better with limited range input in PC mode and my 2080 Ti seems to dither Window's full range output to limited range YCbCr 444 reasonably well.

I would hope Potplayer was not messing with the video by default so you should not need to change anything. :scared:

Try with MPC-HC, or something else that doesn't mess with the video. Does it look the same?



Leave the display set to 8 bit. HDR does not need to be 10 bit with madVR because of the high quality dithering and I do not trust these OLEDs' internal processing >8 bit in PC mode. They seem to handle 10 bit better in non-PC mode but I still see no advantages to using 10 bit input in any mode. These TVs have terrible HDR in PC mode so there is nothing wrong with using 10 bit if you feel like it but do not sacrifice anything to get it. :(



You should not need to have profiles for different resolutions. Simply set it to DCI-P3 if you have the color gamut set to wide or BT.709 if set to extended. I like wide, it is closer to DCI-P3 than extended is to BT.709. Never use BT.2020, that is way too wide for any consumer display's native gamut.



It agree, I like wide better for both HDR and SDR, but it really is too wide for BT.709 content. :o

Extended is a bit wider than BT.709 (and a bit off) but Wide is not quite wide enough for DCI-P3 (but fairly accurate). Using the standard BT.709 -> DCI-P3 will look a bit washed out but with the TV on wide DCI-P3 is much more correct than BT.709. This is the main reason using a 3DLUT calibration file for this conversion is beneficial.



Keep asking! All these options do make more sense once you finally understand what they really mean and get comfortable with the many tradeoffs watching video on consumer displays requires today. It may take a while. :)

Thank u for the replies, I haven't been online, busy as of late.

I haven't tried madvr with mpc-HC lately, I have in the past but not with a high end tv.

Well, I set everything in FULL range so madvr, GPU, tv are all set to full but I'm wondering on the video tab on potplayer the level/offset and color space has options to set ycbcr to limited and ycbcr to rgb to limited/full options. Also, the input/output to 0-255 and 16-235 vice versa so maybe folks with potplayer can chime in or since madvr is doing the renderings it shouldn't matter.??

I maybe have to take screen shots about my high/low difference on my tv. My oled also suffers from vertical banding when watching for more than 4hrs. It does disappear when pixel refreshed.

I haven't checked if my GPU goes to ycbcr limited on hdr, I'll recheck sometime....it shouldn't though....lol.

What are your settings on mpc-hc? Maybe I can just copy it?

Also I have different res on madvr since I upscale 1080 and 720 to 4k with different Luma and chroma settings.

If you suggest of just defaults then I can try that again.

I'll set the gamut to wide and gamma to dci-p3 then.
If u have a 3dlut on dci-p3 on wide that u can share let me know.

I also plan to make one of the inputs (non pc mode) to just watching movies/anime so I wanna set everything to limited, full, limited and switch to pc mode full when browsing, playing games etc.

Screenshots attached...also the right side of my oled has that higher tint....?

[iSeries]

You mean madVR full/GPU limited/black level low? For the YCbCr, I mean.

That was for RGB 8 bit. For ycbcr madVR at full and TV on low.

[chros]

All of my comments above are in PC / Game mode.
...
The rare time we watch a new HDR movie ... but for the most part for all other content I don't see any downsides to leaving the TV constantly in YCbCr 444 8-bit.
HDR10 in PC mode is presenting posterization (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1883144#post1883144) in dark scenes anyway, no matter what output you select. That's why I still use RGB full 12 bit :D

Btw, has anybody tried out Dolby Vision in PC mode?
Do you see any difference? Or maybe DV skips entirely LG processing even via an HDMI input?
And do you know any freely available DV (chroma) test patterns?

Thanks

[QBhd]

The only way of testing this is to have a device that is DV licensed. I am pretty sure there is no way to get DV to work on a PC yet...

QB

[chros]

The only way of testing this is to have a device that is DV licensed. I am pretty sure there is no way to get DV to work on a PC yet...
:) I have it now, but I don't see any difference between normal and PC mode. Maybe that's why ...

[chros]

I started playing with visual studio and the nvapi libraries to try to create a display mode switcher that also allows YCbCr to be used but it's a big learning curve so no joy so far.
Mark, btw, you don't have to write yours, it's already done (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1863306#post1863306) by a fellow nice guy, I use it since then manually every day on Win10 1607. And this is smarter, it uses Wndows 10 API, so it works well with CRU created custom resolutions as well :)

[Magik Mark]

Guys,

Can you recommend a good setting for 4K 60fps on madvr? Getting a lot of frame drop. Even tried bilinear in chroma upscaling. Still dropping frames

I'm using rtx 2060

[mark0077]

Mark, btw, you don't have to write yours, it's already done (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1863306#post1863306) by a fellow nice guy, I use it since then manually every day on Win10 1607. And this is smarter, it uses Wndows 10 API, so it works well with CRU created custom resolutions as well :)

Oh sweet thanks. I'll give it a go to see can I somehow automate calling it to switch to YCbCr for SDR and RGB for HDR via some mechanism also.

[VBB]

Guys,

Can you recommend a good setting for 4K 60fps on madvr? Getting a lot of frame drop. Even tried bilinear in chroma upscaling. Still dropping frames

I'm using rtx 2060

Disable tone-mapping. Then use Jinc or lower for chroma. That's what I do with my 960.

[chros]

to switch to YCbCr for SDR and RGB for HDR
I missed this part or don't remember it: why don't you want to use YCbCr for HDR as well? (Apart from what madshi said (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271416#post1271416) about YCbCr matrixes, but that also applies to BT.709.)

Btw, has anyone tried this out just in case? :)

I think iSeries was proposing that instead of madvr outputting RGB and having the GPU convert it before sending it to the TV, that we'd have madvr output YCbCr instead. Would that not work?

That doesn't work because the backbuffer (ie. the screen) is always in RGB. So when madVR outputs YCbCr to the backbuffer, then the GPU still thinks that its RGB, and if the GPU tries to convert it, it would screw it up - so it has to treat it like RGB.

Hence, everything thinks its handling RGB, the GPU and the screen, so you have to convince one of them that its not RGB, and thats not easily possible.

Basically, a PC is not designed for a direct YCbCr path.

[mark0077]

I missed this part or don't remember it: why don't you want to use YCbCr for HDR as well? (Apart from what madshi said (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271416#post1271416) about YCbCr matrixes, but that also applies to BT.709.)

Btw, has anyone tried this out just in case? :)

For HDR, YCbCr 444 8-bit, shows banding where in SDR it doesn't on the C9. For SDR and HDR, the best mode is different which is a pity. Its why I'm hoping to somehow automate switching to YCbCr444 8-bit for SDR movies / desktop etc, and only switch to RGB for HDR only.

[chros]

For HDR, YCbCr 444 8-bit, shows banding where in SDR it doesn't on the C9. For SDR and HDR, the best mode is different which is a pity. Its why I'm hoping to somehow automate switching to YCbCr444 8-bit for SDR movies / desktop etc, and only switch to RGB for HDR only.
That would be strange. Do you have a sample video for this?

[mark0077]

That would be strange. Do you have a sample video for this?

Today I retested with the png gradient in the first post on this thread opened in madVR https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=172128. (Results are different playing through madVR as opposed to a pure image shown on my desktop, so annoying that different content gives different results, I assume as sometimes different pieces like windows / drivers are at play or not).

Heres my subjective results doing this test on LG C9 65 Inch. GTX 980, latest Nvidia drivers as of today. mpc-be / madVR latest. This is all in Game Mode with PC label on HDMI input.

# SDR - Testing with gradient png
## RGB Full and Limited (Results were the same either way)
8-bit: Med-Bad (Blending good but many random bands appearing in places)
12-bit: Bad

## YCbCr444
8-bit: Great (Slight random bands in places)
12-bit: Bad

## YCbCr222
8-bit: Great (Slight random bands in places)
10-bit: Bad (But no random bands)
12-bit: Bad (But no random bands)

############################

# HDR (Activated using HDR Switcher) - Testing with gradient png
## RGB Full and Limited (Results were the same either way)
8-bit: Bad (Banding clearly visible)
12-bit: Med (A fair amount of banding)

## YCbCr444
8-bit: Great (Slight random bands in places) (Green screen/tint when playing HDR movies)
12-bit: Bad (Switches out of HDR) (Green screen/tint when playing HDR movies)

## YCbCr222
8-bit: Great (Slight random bands in places)
10-bit: Med (Slight banding)
12-bit: Med (Slight banding)

Side Note: Has anyone with newer NVidia cards, tried the Studio Drivers. They seem to have alot of changes when it comes to 10-bit support. Maybe they behave differently in different bit depths? I can't test on my GTX 980 as they only support newer cards.

[VBB]

Mark, thanks for doing this. I know you mentioned this on the previous page, but it would help other people to once again say that your testing was done in PC mode and not in normal mode. The results are different.

[mark0077]

Mark, thanks for doing this. I know you mentioned this on the previous page, but it would help other people to once again say that your testing was done in PC mode and not in normal mode. The results are different.

Ah yes your right. I edited my previous post to mention that, cheers.

[chros]

I agree with VBB. But if PC mode was tested then what's the point of testing 4:2:2? :)

[Asmodian]

LG is bragging that they fixed HDR for low latency gaming. I am hopeful this will apply to PC mode as well, but we will have to see. On my C7 and C9 HDR in PC mode is simply not good enough. :(

[mi3gai4rui4]

Hi all,
I've got a C6 (latest firmware) and an nVidia GeForce 1080Ti.
Is there a guide somewhere for the combination of settings on the PC and the TV that will give me the best picture quality during madVR playback?
I watch lots of SDR, lots of HDR, mostly in a dark room.

For the past several years I've been using these settings but have noticed quite a bit of banding on HDR content and in trying to improve it I found this thread, but I'm having trouble figuring out if there's a consensus on the best settings:
HDMI label: PC
nVidia control panel settings: RGB full, 12-bit
madVR: Pass through HDR metadata, RGB PC levels

Many thanks.

[SamuriHL]

Nor on my C8. (PC mode that is)

[Asmodian]

HDMI label: PC
nVidia control panel settings: RGB full, 12-bit
madVR: Pass through HDR metadata, RGB PC levels


The HDMI label should be anything except PC (or game?) for HDR. No real consensus yet for the other settings. I still need to do more testing for HDR but I use YCbCr 444, 8-bit and your settings in madVR. :o

Edit: for madVR the advice in this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1895548#post1895548) sounds very good to me. I would trust that over what I am using right now.
At least 2018 models works best with MDL and maxCLL 700 and setting this value in madvr with hdr output and pixelshader tonemapping. In 2019 models the peak can be set via a util but defaulting to 700 as well, other brands need to be tested.

[SamuriHL]

Yes, that's what most of us are using on the 2018 models and that should apply to other models, as well, unless you've messed with the built in curve (i.e. on a C9). We've been getting fantastic results with madvr's latest test build and tone mapping to 700 nits.

[Magik Mark]

Guys,

I made the ff profile for refresh rate switching:

4K: 2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p50, 2160p59
HD: 1080p100, 1080p119, 1080p120

No problem switching to HD Refresh Rates. However, it seems 4K does not not follow its own. It however downscale the video and uses Hds instead.
Is there a problem in my setup?

Thanks

[Asmodian]

Make sure the 4K resolutions are first, or are you using separate profiles? If you are, what is your profile rule?
Are you sure it is ever using the 4K profile?

[Magik Mark]

Make sure the 4K resolutions are first, or are you using separate profiles? If you are, what is your profile rule?
Are you sure it is ever using the 4K profile?

Thanks. I think your solution is way better.

Do you happen to know how to use CRU in making customize refresh rates for the ff:

2160p@23hz
1080p@119hz

The timings are way off. I think LG doesn't even support it

[nevcairiel]

I would personally not recommend to switch resolution. Players/Windows can get confused by that and trip a high-DPI mode, resulting in double-scaling.

[Magik Mark]

I would personally not recommend to switch resolution. Players/Windows can get confused by that and trip a high-DPI mode, resulting in double-scaling.

You are right. Image is a bit bigger

Anymore tips for using madvr and LAV in LG OLED?

[VBB]

Some of us are now using 2160p@60Hz exclusively along with madvr's smooth motion. This results in, well, smoother motion on the OLED :D

And, as most of you know by now, I've been advocating YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit for virtually no banding at all. No regrets so far.

[iSeries]

For sure smooth motion at 60hz is much smoother than 23p and Real Cinema. The extra blurring does bother me a bit though. Actually I've gone back to 23p and trying Trumotion. LG must have improved this at some point because last time I tried it there were too many artifacts, but dejudder on 2 and i have yet to see any artifacts and the motion is smooth with minimal soap opera effect.

Ycbcr 422 10 bit looks good to me, too. Thanks for testing it! I did a few tests of my own and it does look good.

[quietvoid]

I haven't looked at test patterns but with RGB 8 bit output on the GPU, I never see banding where there shouldn't be on my C8.
Nor do I notice anything wrong with motion with 2160p23
Maybe I'm just not as picky..

[Magik Mark]

Some of us are now using 2160p@60Hz exclusively along with madvr's smooth motion. This results in, well, smoother motion on the OLED :D

And, as most of you know by now, I've been advocating YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit for virtually no banding at all. No regrets so far.

Do you also set madvr to 10bit?

[SamuriHL]

Yes, and full.

[Magik Mark]

Thanks SamuriHL.

VBB you are right! Image looks better at YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit. Shadow details are more conspicuous

[Magik Mark]

Is it also the same to you guys? I can't get fullscreen exclusive. Only 8bit window

Maybe I missed something?

[SamuriHL]

If you're on windows 10, use window mode as full screen exclusive doesn't work on later windows 10 builds. I've not had any issues with window mode.

[VBB]

@Magik Mark - Yes to FS windowed, madVR 10-bit 0-255, OLED Black Level Low. There is a bug in madVR, where it sometimes switches back to 8-bit playback, even though everything is set to 10-bit. When that happens, only a reboot fixes it for me.

[Magik Mark]

Thanks VBB & SamuriHL

[Magik Mark]

I have also observed that indicating your actual number of CPU threads in "Threads for MultiThreading" found in LAV Video Decoder gives smoother playback especially when running your CPU in almost full load, just liken when encoding videos.

All along I thought NGU AA very high was the culprit in dropping frames. I was mistaken.

[huhn]

you could use hardware decoding which ignores this option.

[biship]

you could use hardware decoding which ignores this option.

What setting(s) switch from software to hardware decoding?

[huhn]

under video settings in the hardware acceleration tab.

[chros]

LG is bragging that they fixed HDR for low latency gaming. I am hopeful this will apply to PC mode as well, but we will have to see. On my C7 and C9 HDR in PC mode is simply not good enough. :(
That's good news, do you have a link? But since the SoC is not much different compared to last year (alpha 9 gen 2 vs gen 3), I can't imagine where the improvemnt comes from, firmware?

[Teddy_McFluff]

@Magik Mark - Yes to FS windowed, madVR 10-bit 0-255, OLED Black Level Low. There is a bug in madVR, where it sometimes switches back to 8-bit playback, even though everything is set to 10-bit. When that happens, only a reboot fixes it for me.

Wouldn't that have crushed blacks for if the tv is set on low? Do I have madvr, GPU, tv set @ low high low? If not let me know as I'm trying to fix my set up I'm using potplayer though with madvr with lav

[VBB]

With video card limited, madVR full, and TV low, everything would be fine. Another option would be video card full, madVR full, TV high. Any reason why you're doing what you're doing?

[Teddy_McFluff]

With video card limited, madVR full, and TV low, everything would be fine. Another option would be video card full, madVR full, TV high. Any reason why you're doing what you're doing?

I have mine on high, full, high 8bit. I'm using potplayer with lav filters loaded and using my c8 on non pc mode. I had madvr with different profiles but erased them. I do get banding present. I'll try the suggestion but should I do my bit depth on auto, 8 or 10?

If you've used potplayer theres a video setting on "levels/offset" and "colorspace" theres a setting there for ycbcr on full or limited and ycbcr/rgb conversation on limited, full as well. Also theres a input output of 0-255 or 16-235. My question is would those matter in the conversions formula or does lav filter override it?

I also like the soap opera effect with the smooth motion, will that affect it, I want my playback to be smooth @ 60fps. The scaling on my madvr was that it upscales 720, 1080 all to 4k fyi

[Magik Mark]

you could use hardware decoding which ignores this option.

Mine is set to D3D 11. Is that software? Gives the best image so far

[VBB]

@Magik Mark - D3D11 is video card hardware decoding, so that's fine. You'd only be using software aka CPU if it was set to "None".

@Teddy_McFluff - You could try YCbCr as described on the previous page to get rid of pretty much all banding. I don't know much about PotPlayer, so I can't help you there, but you'll probably be fine just by setting madVR to 0-255 and 10-bit. I'm guessing by soap opera effect you do in fact not mean madVR's smooth motion, but rather the TV's motion interpolation. If you prefer that, then you cannot use smooth motion at the same time. You'd be better off sticking with frame rate switching.

[corporalgator]

I've been reading through the thread and I'm bit a confused. I want an Oled and will probably go with a C9 as the B9 seems to have more banding issues. I prefer Madvr @60 with smooth motion for all content.

Once nvidia releases their firmware update for my rtx2070 to do 4k@120 via hdmi 2.1, will the C9 be able to handle that? Will it even matter for watching madvr content? Would I be able to run at 24/23p via madvr switching with smooth motion off to activate the 120hz on the tv and not have to do turn on any true cinema or other BS and would that be better than using smooth motion at 60 hz? Thanks for the help!

[Asmodian]

Yes, the C9 is the TV that firmware update is for, if it really happens (where did you hear that it would?). Smooth motion is better at 120 Hz, so it would be helpful.

No, 24/23p input would not activate the 120Hz on the TV with all the BS off. I don't like my C9 with everything off and 23p input, 60p with smooth motion is better in my opinion.

This is for SDR in PC mode (444 chroma) which the highest quality option for SDR with madVR, also sending YCbCr 444 limited from the GPU with full range RGB from madVR. For HDR you need to set the HDMI port to the default or home theater (422 chroma) and then you can send YCbCr 422 10 bit from the GPU, though the quality difference from 8 bit YCbCr 444 is not significant, if it is actually better. Personally I always send YCbCr 444 and only change the HDMI port label on the TV when switching between SDR and HDR.

[QBhd]

On my C8 (not much different from a C9)… I go the other way. I don't switch anything. I leave the TV on the "normal" HDMI setting, GPU is Full RGB 8-bit, and madVR is set to 10 Bit (to make sure HDR is enabled when needed). In this scenario, only the TV is doing something behind madVR's back. And this is un-avoidable at the moment since PC mode for HDMI on LG is seriously borked with horrible banding.

QB

[Asmodian]

My C9 has very minimal banding in PC mode with YCbCr 444 limited input. It looks as good as the default HDMI mode, not actually perfect but very good. I think this was improved on the C9 because this is not true on my C7. I really hate subsampled chroma so discovering the C9 could do banding free 444 with YCbCr limited was a great discovery. PC mode still fails hard with HDR tone mapping so I have to change modes. :(

My GPU does not need 10 bit input to use HDR so I leave madVR on 8 bit.

If banding is the same it is hard to argue that letting the TV subsample the chroma is ideal.

[mark0077]

How do you think we can give the feedback to LG on the issues we see with PC mode and banding. I see Vincent from HDTVTest recently saying LG seem to listen to a lot of reviewers like him and make fixes based on feedback, but I assume that's all in non PC mode. It would be great if someone like Vincent included PC mode in his reviews and gave the feedback there also.

[SamuriHL]

I have another 3 years before I'll even consider a new TV. While my C8 isn't ideal, they've not fixed enough to warrant another 2-3k purchase for nominal gains. The 2020 models look like they're rebranded model names. The Calman guys posted some screen shots of some of the new options they're going to be able to tweak. Essentially they now have full control over calibrating SDR/HDR/DV. Must be nice. LOL Still, it'd be nice to see how these new ones stack up in PC mode.

[Asmodian]

The 48" CX looks very nice to me. I will be ordering one as soon as available. Turns out the C9 was a bad investment, a great screen but while VRR is nice I will have never run it at 120 Hz before I replace it. :o

I will report back how it works. I hope that moving the HDR tone mapping, and all their talk about low latency HDR gaming, will also result in the HDR tone mapping being the same in PC and non-PC modes. I also want the better PPI so the update is still worth it if not. HDR gaming on the C9 and earlier is pretty poor though, either high latency and 422 or bad tone mapping so if they fixed that maybe they fixed PC mode? :(

I don't know how we could really get LG attention on PC mode. I think it would take a popular reviewer testing it in a public way. I have been surprised that Vincent does not mention chroma sampling or anything about PC mode, only because of gaming. Traditionally people who cared about calibrations and maximum quality did not play video games and all other content is already subsampled so I suppose professional calibrators don't normally worry about it. madVR, and the idea of quality chroma upscaling, is still a very niche concern.

[SamuriHL]

I'll be choosing my next panel very carefully. Given that I've already gone 4K with the HDR formats I care about, the next one will have to hit ALL checkboxes for me before it becomes worth it. I couldn't care less about 8k as I think that's more than a few years off before it becomes "real" in any sense of the word. But 4K 120Hz, low latency, higher NIT support, etc....that could be fun. Give me a panel that hits 4000 nits with all the bells and whistles and now we're talking. :D

[Asmodian]

I hope nothing temps me after the CX until microLED comes out but it seems unlikely given my lack of self control with displays. :o

I was not thinking my C9 would last until microLED but now it seems possible. OLED is not a great 10 year display tech but reasonably priced 4K microLED displays actually seem possible 3-4 years from now. It could definitely be longer though, especially if OLEDs get cheaper to manufacture and/or there are unexpected difficulties in reducing the cost of manufacturing microLEDs. I think microLED is the only technology that looks promising as a replacement for OLED. OLED is already a nearly ideal SDR display technology as we wait for microLED and nearly ideal HDR. :)

[chros]

:) Here's Vincent's first look of the 48" CX (https://youtu.be/zRhd2Wsy6L0). And indeed the other guy is raving about the improvements made in gaming mode, but he doesn't mention PC mode at all. :)

[mi3gai4rui4]

Are these the settings people recommend for tone mapping HDR?
See attachment.
I'm confused why "color tweaks for fire & explosions" and "highlight recovery strength" can't be changed?

[Klaus1189]

Please upload on external site, like Google Drive, we can not watch the picture, see here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pTrta61IHFBhz2DEoC_GkWVzCsIOczAl/view?usp=sharing

[SamuriHL]

There are options in trade performance that will impact the tone mapping options.

[SamuriHL]

As for microLED I can only hope it's ready by the time I'm ready for a new display. Wouldn't that be nice. I love the C8, even with its shortcomings. I can live with it for a few more year if needs be.

[Magik Mark]

Some of us are now using 2160p@60Hz exclusively along with madvr's smooth motion. This results in, well, smoother motion on the OLED :D

And, as most of you know by now, I've been advocating YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit for virtually no banding at all. No regrets so far.

Have you tried 444 8bit? It seems it has no banding as well. However, it could only do up to 8bit

Do you happen to have an image comparing the 2 settings?

[VBB]

Are you talking about PC mode or normal mode? I don't use PC mode for various reasons, so 4:4:4 is not a priority. I tested every available combination, and 4:2:2 10-bit has the least banding of them all. 4:4:4 8-bit is a good option, but then you might as well use PC mode. In normal mode, I'd use RGB over YCbCr 4:4:4.

[Magik Mark]

Are you talking about PC mode or normal mode? I don't use PC mode for various reasons, so 4:4:4 is not a priority. I tested every available combination, and 4:2:2 10-bit has the least banding of them all. 4:4:4 8-bit is a good option, but then you might as well use PC mode. In normal mode, I'd use RGB over YCbCr 4:4:4.

I'm using my PC to play Pot Player and Kodi with DSplayer and MAdvr, is that PC Mode?

What is Normal Mode?

[Asmodian]

What label do you have set for the HDMI port on your C9?

[VBB]

I'm using my PC to play Pot Player and Kodi with DSplayer and MAdvr, is that PC Mode?

What is Normal Mode?

PC mode is when you set the label for the HDMI port on the LG TV to "PC". It puts the display into 4:4:4 (no chroma subsampling) mode. Among other things, this makes small text more legible. Unfortunately, this causes a lot of banding, especially in HDR mode. When using PC mode, the consensus is to use YCbCr 4:4:4 for SDR (rather than RGB), due to reduced banding. For HDR, PC mode is not really viable, although some here still use it (looking at you, chros ;)).

Normal mode is leaving the HDMI port label either at default or changing it to anything other than PC (correct me, if there is another label that triggers 4:4:4).

In my opinion, if you don't use your PC for anything other than watching media, there is no real reason to use PC mode. In an ideal world, we'd all be using full chroma, but for now the cons outweigh the pros. That is until LG get their act together. There is no reason they can't make this work properly, especially now that HDMI 2.1 is here. Bandwidth and/or processing power should not be used as an excuse any longer.

[Magik Mark]

PC mode is when you set the label for the HDMI port on the LG TV to "PC". It puts the display into 4:4:4 (no chroma subsampling) mode. Among other things, this makes small text more legible. Unfortunately, this causes a lot of banding, especially in HDR mode. When using PC mode, the consensus is to use YCbCr 4:4:4 for SDR (rather than RGB), due to reduced banding. For HDR, PC mode is not really viable, although some here still use it (looking at you, chros ;)).

Normal mode is leaving the HDMI port label either at default or changing it to anything other than PC (correct me, if there is another label that triggers 4:4:4).

In my opinion, if you don't use your PC for anything other than watching media, there is no real reason to use PC mode. In an ideal world, we'd all be using full chroma, but for now the cons outweigh the pros. That is until LG get their act together. There is no reason they can't make this work properly, especially now that HDMI 2.1 is here. Bandwidth and/or processing power should not be used as an excuse any longer.

Oh I see. This is new for me. Thanks alot

I have noticed as well nobody is setting their GPU to 12bit. Any particular reason?

[VBB]

With anything other than 4:2:2, you don't get to pick 10-bit anyway. It's always either 8-bit or 12-bit (with Nvidia). For 4:2:2 and our OLEDs, I found that there is no real difference visually between 10-bit and 12-bit. This probably has something to do with the fact that in this case the signal is always sent as 12-bit anyway. Not sure if that's an Nvidia bug or something else. I believe SamuriHL pointed this out first, and I confirmed it via my Denon. Nothing's perfect, I guess :)

[Magik Mark]

Thanks a lot for the input. Really appreciated it

[Asmodian]

In my opinion, if you don't use your PC for anything other than watching media, there is no real reason to use PC mode.

This is not true! A major benefit of madVR is high quality chroma upscaling. While LG is not good at handling PC mode with RGB input, or HDR in PC mode at all, don't dismiss 4:4:4 chroma completely!

If you can get banding free gradients in PC mode it is better quality than any of the non-PC modes, with madVR. My C9 is great with 8 bit YCbCr 444 in PC mode, and I get better quality with blurays played through madVR in PC mode with that than I do in HDMI mode with 10 bit YCbCr 422. This is only with SDR, my C9 is still very bad at HDR in PC mode. :(

The C9, mine at least, has improved PC mode, albeit only with SDR 8 bit YCbCr input. :p

But, yeah, LG OLEDs require balancing tradeoffs and HDMI mode is a lot more forgiving. PC mode with any other input format is worse than HDMI mode with any input format on my C9 but it is also a different issue, banding in some gradients v.s. every single frame slightly blurred in that subsampled chroma way. I really wish I could keep madVR's 8 bit RGB output untouched. :(

[VBB]

That's why I said "in my opinion". I would never argue the benefit of full chroma. It's just too much of a hassle with the OLEDs. So, yeah, trade-offs on both sides. I prefer not to switch to a different mode when I watch HDR, which is quite often. And speaking of blurring - we already do that anyway by using smooth motion. There is no win-win.

[Asmodian]

Good point. I cannot say "not true" to your opinion. :)
I totally understand not wanting to change HDMI labels all the time, but that is different from saying there is no point to full resolution chroma. ;)

Smooth motion blurring is very different from chroma subsampling bluring, but I agree, there is no win-win.

[SamuriHL]

We suffer the limitations of current display tech and hope that these issues get resolved before we upgrade. Well, not you, Asmodian as you seem to have an incurable upgrade disease. :p :D I've also settled on YCbCr 422 10 bit on the PC and it looks very good. And yes, to the comment above, nVidia wraps 10 bit in a 12 bit signal on the PC.

[oddball]

Has anyone got a guide for setting up DisplayCal with MadVR 3DLut for SDR and HDR calibration outputting from Win10 PC 12bit 4:4:4 RGB? LG OLED55B6V BTW. When setting the B6 to PC input on HDMI2 (set to accept BT2020 input) the TV auto sets itself to wide gamut. Not sure if it should be on normal or not. Also when doing HDR calibration should Win10 be set to HDR mode on the display and/or HDR Output set in DisplayCal instead of tone mapped?

Damned confusing this.

[senzaparole]

Hello guys.

I have a TV LG B9 65", a PC with RX 5700 XT and a Denon X3500H.
The PC is connected to the DENON and the DENON is connected to the TV.

I have some doubts about the settings:

1. on the LG B9 TV set:
- black level on HIGH.
- Does dynamic tone mapping turn on or off?
- do I have to set the HDMI port to which the PC is connected and the bluray player via the AVR Denon X3500H in PC Mode or in (for example) Home Theater Mode?

2. Imposed the video card: 10-bit color depth and RGB 4: 4: 4: PC standard pixel format (full RGB).

[chros]

For HDR, PC mode is not really viable, although some here still use it (looking at you, chros ;)).
:) I read you :)

I have noticed as well nobody is setting their GPU to 12bit.
I do :)

Smooth motion blurring is very different from chroma subsampling bluring, but I agree, there is no win-win.
I don't like SM either, I match refresh rates.

Has anyone got a guide for setting up DisplayCal with MadVR 3DLut for SDR and HDR calibration outputting from Win10 PC 12bit 4:4:4 RGB?
Take a look at section IV of this post. (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836)

I have some doubts about the settings:

1. on the LG B9 TV set:
- black level on HIGH.
- Does dynamic tone mapping turn on or off?
- do I have to set the HDMI port to which the PC is connected and the bluray player via the AVR Denon X3500H in PC Mode or in (for example) Home Theater Mode?

2. Imposed the video card: 10-bit color depth and RGB 4: 4: 4: PC standard pixel format (full RGB).

1.
- dynamic tone mapping: it's up to you whether enable or disable it
- PC Mode or in Home Theater Mode: if you can't live without chroma 4:4:4 (like me :)) then go for PC mode, if you can then the other

2. read back the whole thread from the above link and you will see that no win-win situation, you have to decide what you can live with

[senzaparole]

thanks for the replies.

If I enable PC mode in the HDMI 2 port of the TV, the external bluray player will also be connected to this port via the Denon X3500H.

Can the PC mode of the TV negatively affect the connection with the external bluray player?

[chros]

Can the PC mode of the TV negatively affect the connection with the external bluray player?
Yes. But you can manually switch it back of you need to.

[Yviena]

In my case with my LG C9 with input set to HDMI mode, RGB FULL/ TV set to black level high has more banding than RGB limited/ TV set to low, and i believe ycbcr 4:4:4 limited with TV set to black level low also has a little less banding than RGB limited/low.

Also Game mode has somewhat worse banding in the near blacks, when looking at a gradient test the black in the gradient test looks different than in ISF dark/bright mode so i believe the gamma is different even if both are set to BT1886.

[senzaparole]

Yes. But you can manually switch it back of you need to.

I contacted LG about the PC mode or other modes selectable in the Dashboard by changing the HDMI port icon.
LG wrote to me that changing the icon does not change the characteristics of the selected input and therefore does not change the color space either.
The icon you choose doesn't matter.
I own an LG B9, could it be that for this model the icon has no meaning?

[chros]

LG wrote to me that changing the icon does not change the characteristics of the selected input
:D :D :D Just read back or search on the web for it.

[senzaparole]

I'm confused. LG officially denies what can be found on the web.

[Asmodian]

Whoever talked to you at LG knows less about the product than their users. Not surprising really, tier one support can be pretty inexperienced.

It is also largely true, only PC mode differs as far as I know.

[senzaparole]

thanks for the clarification. I apologize if I doubted

[Magik Mark]

I'm experimenting with madvr beta 113. Is there a procedure in installing it? I just copied it in my madvr folder. I was able to run the configuration but when I play a movie it hangs and asking me to quit or continue.

Continuing freezes the player. Do I need to reset it then redo the configuration?

[quietvoid]

You need to disable smooth motion with beta 113, there is a bug that crashes the renderer.

[Magik Mark]

Oh. Thanks for letting me know


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[senzaparole]

Hello guys.

I own an LG B9 TV and a pc with the RX 5700 XT video card.

Do you recommend in the madVR settings to select "tone map HDR using shaders" without selecting "video output in HDR format"?

I would do an HDR> SDR conversion on the LG B9 TV using madVR tone mapping.

In this way I also solve the problem of the washed out colors caused by the Rx 5700 XT when the TV switches to HDR mode.
It's a good idea or is it better to enable video output in HDr format??

[Asmodian]

I think it is a good idea, at least until AMD's drivers get fixed.

[senzaparole]

I abbandoned the conversion from HDR to SDR on the LG OLED B9 because the videos have a low brightness.

So to solve the problem of the drivers of the RX 5700 XT I thought to enable the Windows HDR:


https://i.ibb.co/RNpNrcs/IMG-20200210-WA0003.jpg (https://ibb.co/XDZD0tK)


https://i.ibb.co/FHCL8Zd/IMG-20200210-WA0004.jpg (https://ibb.co/RjdkQrJ)


It all seems ok but I'm not an expert. What are you saying? Can I improve something?
In chroma upscaling and image upscaling I have selected NGU sharp for 4K videos only.

[Magik Mark]

When using MadVR Tone mapping, Shall I:

1. Passthrough Meta data to the display?
2. Turn off dynamic tone mapping of the display?

Any other prerequisites?

[SamuriHL]

I use HDR output enabled, real display nits set to 700, and most definitely disable the LG DTM.

[Magik Mark]

Thanks a lot. Do you mind sharing the screenshot of your MadVR tone Mapping?

[QBhd]

Here is mine... But I'm always curious to see others as well

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/madVR.tonemapping.png

QB

[Magik Mark]

Thanks QBhd

This is b113 right?

How about your 60FPS hdr?

[QBhd]

I just passthrough 60fps... slide show with tone mapping so I needed a profile for the One and Only 60 fps movie out there (at least new movies)… I really don't expect it will be used again :)

QB

[Magik Mark]

Thanks again QBhd!

[SamuriHL]

Those are almost identical to my settings. The things I changed are really preference items. But I'm using the same curve and saturation settings. Sorry I didn't get to post them yesterday. Got busy watching some movies.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

Thanks a lot. Do you mind sharing the screenshot of your MadVR tone Mapping?
Here it is (https://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1901625&postcount=58661).

[Magik Mark]

Thanks guys!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Magik Mark]

For those who are not using SM, can you share any tips and procedure for minimizing or completely eliminating frame drops on 2160p 23, 25 and 60 FPS? So war 24FPS in my oled C9 65" is perfect.

If you are using CRU can you share screenshots on what you have done?

Thank you so much!

[Yviena]

Hmm has anyone noticed that in PC-MODE setting native bitdepth in madvr to 6bit together with Ycbcr in NVCP get's rid of the vertical stripes in the darker regions in a gradient test?

[RXP]

Interesting comparison here: OLED Game Mode vs Cinema mode: https://youtu.be/ZmT8yvopMLg?t=454

No real differences but Game Mode has slightly more Chroma resolution.

[huhn]

he is kinda saying the opposite of the tested results in this thread.

and someone should tell him not all LCD TV work the same in game mode what he just blindly assumes here.

[Yviena]

Hmm contrary to that youtube video i can on my C9 see a little worse banding in the near dark regions when game mode is used.

[SamuriHL]

Imagine that. :D Yes, this has been tested extensively by those in this thread. That youtube video (which I didn't bother to watch) is wrong.

[huhn]

you should he is one of the best in the field...
even if he is wrong.

there is a lot of context missing like what type of signal is send and such.

[SamuriHL]

That's always the trouble with these blanket statements. There are a LOT of variables to contend with.

[nevcairiel]

you should he is one of the best in the field...
even if he is wrong.

Everytime I see one of his videos mentioned, he is usually wrong about something or vastly generalizing. Must not be a good field. :D

[huhn]

well...
i would like to disagree but i can't that just shows how good this field is covered. he is really one of the best out there to take a deeper look not deep enough but he tries.

[iSeries]

Let's not forget Vincent is a pro calibrator first and foremost. He targets his videos to a general audience who don't really know the technical stuff that well.

He was also instrumental in getting the 2018 LG oleds the dithering 'fix' for the overshoot issue.

[SamuriHL]

I have a lot of respect for Vincent and what he's done for the industry. That being said, he's not always correct. :) And when you don't take into account all the variables around a particular topic, making generalized statements can be problematic as we know. That doesn't negate the good he's done.

[iSeries]

He has to generalise otherwise his videos would be hours long if he took every variable and every possible outcome into account :-)

[SamuriHL]

And that's how you end up with the wrong conclusion at times. :)

[wnholt01]

Forgive me if this has already been answered, searched through this thread but didn't find an exact answer.

I know PC mode is preferred for gaming presumably for the low latency and better image/text in 4:4:4. However, if I am running in non PC mode to avoid banding in HDR, etc. won't the latency be the same as in PC mode if I am in using the game preset in non PC mode?

[Yviena]

Just wondering but how important is 4:4:4 chroma actually in games, or when doing stuff like Photoshop, and what white point are you all using for the C8/C9 model D65 looks too green for me.

Also has it ever been mentioned why exactly there is more banding in PC mode?

[senzaparole]

I have activated PC mode but I have not notice any band

[QBhd]

Watch Episode 3 "the Long Night" of season 8 of Game of Thrones in HDR... What a banded mess in PC mode!

QB

[Magik Mark]

SamuriHL

Are you able to get no frame drops in 4k without using SM? If so, can you share what you have done?

Thanks

[SamuriHL]

I get frame drops but they're not too bad. I didn't do anything special. One of these days I should probably use CRU to create a custom resolution to make it even better. I forget exactly what the rate of drops I'm getting now is but I can live with it until I get motivated. Ideally you want to find a way to make 1 drop every 3+ hours. Anything over that is good.

[chros]

Are you able to get no frame drops in 4k without using SM? If so, can you share what you have done?

One of these days I should probably use CRU to create a custom resolution to make it even better.

Here it is (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998) (note that I have a 1060 card with the old 385.28 driver).

[Magik Mark]

Thanks chros

Update: Doing great under RTX 2060 442.19 studio driver. No frame drops!

I was wondering how did you come up with those values?

[Magik Mark]

FYI for those who are considering in switching to the video refresh rates, I have observed that under 4k refresh rates, 23FPS is the only one that is not supported under the EDID.
This needs to be customized in CRU. Using chros example, we are able to achieve a flawless playback under this setting.

[chros]

I was wondering how did you come up with those values?
There's a link in that post for madshi's guide! :)

Doing great under RTX 2060 442.19 studio driver. No frame drops!
Nice!

This needs to be customized in CRU. Using chros example, we are able to achieve a flawless playback under this setting.
Just beware of that example: if your original edid values are different it can cause issues. Now you made me curious what's your C9 (in your setup) edid values are (reported by madvr).

[Magik Mark]

Here you go:

https://i.ibb.co/7WgbB51/Mad-VR-4k23fps.png (https://ibb.co/7WgbB51)

We both have LG Oled maybe dats why we have the same result

[chros]

I have observed that under 4k refresh rates, 23FPS is the only one that is not supported under the EDID.
That's strange, your attached image tells the same, but I swear that madvr had an EDID row on that screen for me.

We both have LG Oled maybe dats why we have the same result
Those are the exact same settings I posted, hm...
Maybe somebody else can check it as well.

[QBhd]

Here is mine on a fresh install of Windows (long story for another time)… so This is with zero changes to AMD custom resolutions and NO CRU...

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/madVR.Rosolution.Fresh.png

Also I have done zero edit yet in madVR so this is what it looks like on the previous page:

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/madVR_Resolutions.Fresh2.png

QB

[chros]

Here is mine on a fresh install of Windows (long story for another time)… so This is with zero changes to AMD custom resolutions and NO CRU...
Thanks QB, exactly that's what I meant!
So, these're - again - the very same values that I got on mine and Mark on his.

So, the conclusion is, if you have these (preferably EDID) values and you have only couple of minutes reported by madvr OSD, then you can try to use my values (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998) in CRU without the need for measuring it with madvr.

[QBhd]

That is not true.... Clock deviation involves too many variables such as audio device, system timers, and even temperature to name just a few.

QB

[RXP]

Anyone else using a higher Gamma with their 2016 models? I noticed with my c9 that I found the low light scene compression handling remarkable. By far the biggest upgrade in picture quality for me was due to that. In running black crush test patterns I noticed that the lower IRE's had much less brightness than on the C6. With my C6 and a 3DLUT i used MadVR to process a 2.6 pure Power Gamma to achieve similar results. It made low light, grainy and high compression noise scenes really look so much better. Not quite the C9 level but a huge upgrade nonetheless.

[chros]

The previously mentioned method wasn't reliable, so I came up with this "mpc-be.cmd" script for MPC-BE/HC with the help of aiopylgtv (https://github.com/bendavid/aiopylgtv) (witten in python) and psshutdown (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/downloads/psshutdown):


REM Script to run mpc-be and commands after it exited

cd d:\Progs\MPC-BE\

mpc-be64.exe && aiopylgtvcommand 192.168.1.78 power_off && C:\Windows\psshutdown.exe -d -t 00


How to use it:
- create a shortcut for it on the desktop and run it if you need this functionality
- set "Exit" (!) in "After Playback" in the player if you want them to turn off (e.g. with this remote (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1823602#post1823602))
- you can still close the batch window (it doesn't close the player) if you don't want to turn them off

[tyguy]

What are your guys thoughts on Lgs dynamic tone mapping?

[quietvoid]

What are your guys thoughts on Lgs dynamic tone mapping?

It's unpredictable and often brightens midtones. So for many it doesn't follow the PQ curve.
Otherwise, in my opinion it makes some scenes too bright for no reason.

[VBB]

I used it for a while, because it made things seemingly brighter, but for about a year now, I've had it disabled, and I will never look back. It just messes with the picture in ways I do not appreciate.

[SamuriHL]

I can't stand it personally. Especially once you calibrate your display and use madvr for tone mapping, the limitations of LG DTM are glaring. As others have said, it badly messes with the picture in not so pleasant ways.

[QBhd]

Agreed... I thought it was nice at first, but it turned out to be rubbish.

QB

[tyguy]

Thanks QB, exactly that's what I meant!
So, these're - again - the very same values that I got on mine and Mark on his.

So, the conclusion is, if you have these (preferably EDID) values and you have only couple of minutes reported by madvr OSD, then you can try to use my values (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1868998#post1868998) in CRU without the need for measuring it with madvr.


Thanks for these values! Finally I have perfect playback with madvr. Do you happen to have timings for 59 hz and 25 hz?

I actually don’t have any 25 hz content, but I do have Gemini man at 59 hz and it’s dropping frames every minute.

[SamuriHL]

Be certain that's a timing issue and not a rendering issue. That's a much more demanding framerate for UHD playback in madvr.

[tyguy]

Be certain that's a timing issue and not a rendering issue. That's a much more demanding framerate for UHD playback in madvr.



It’s a timing issue. My render times are at 10 ms and the render time for 60 hz is at slightly above 16 ms.

[SamuriHL]

Ok, just wanted to rule that out because 60Hz UHD's are punishing depending on settings used. Hopefully someone has the timings you're looking for on that one.

[tyguy]

Ok, just wanted to rule that out because 60Hz UHD's are punishing depending on settings used. Hopefully someone has the timings you're looking for on that one.


Oh yeah, I had to turn chroma to jinc to keep it under 16 ms. I can’t use pixel shaders dynamic tonemapping either. Just pass through hdr.

I tried measuring the timings myself, but madvr is giving me an error that says the gpu has rejected it. It does it for both 59 and 60 hz in the custom mode.

Thankfully both 24 FPS and 25 FPS content plays perfectly with nvidia default timings. So the only content I can’t properly play back is 59/60 hz content.

[chros]

So the only content I can’t properly play back is 59/60 hz content.
I'm glad it worked finally. What does madvr OSD state for 59 and 60 HZ for you? (Personally I only applied to 23p, because it's pretty rare to watch 59/60p).

[tyguy]

I'm glad it worked finally. What does madvr OSD state for 59 and 60 HZ for you? (Personally I only applied to 23p, because it's pretty rare to watch 59/60p).
https://i.imgur.com/GkwOcg7.png

[senzaparole]

Hello guys.
After the latest AMD update, the HDR function works perfectly.
I own an LG OLED B9 and a RX 5700 XT video card. Are these settings okay?

https://i.ibb.co/vX34NZ3/IMG-20200404-152018.jpg (https://ibb.co/3RpmxBp)

[QBhd]

Not sure what is right or wrong... but mine is very different. I have a C8 and should be pretty much the same as your B9 (I believe they use the same processor with a newer panel on the B9)

http://qbstorrents.erebus.feralhosting.com/Doom9/madVR.tonemapping.png

QB

[senzaparole]

Thanks for the reply.
I copied your settings. The result seems a little better to me. I leave your settings. I have activated LG's dynamic tone mapping.

I created only one profile for HDR.

I created several profiles instead in scaling:

https://i.ibb.co/jJTC9JY/IMG-20200404-173553.jpg (https://ibb.co/QDfW7DV)

[QBhd]

LG's Tone Mapping is NOT recommended. I used to think it was a good addition, but now every time I turn it on to see what it looks like for reference, I immediately turn it back off... it does more harm than good

As for my HDR profiles... it is only for the TWO movies so far that have been released that are 4k60p... I have even more scaling profiles setup... Thanks for the tip, but I have been using profiles since they were added to madVR :)

QB

[senzaparole]

I write some considerations:

1. if I change the value of "dynamic target nits" I don't see any differences. For what reason?

2. if I activate LG's dynamic tone mapping, I only see a small but pleasant increase in brightness. I have not found any defect. I'm sorry to disable LG's DTM.

[tyguy]

LG's Tone Mapping is NOT recommended. I used to think it was a good addition, but now every time I turn it on to see what it looks like for reference, I immediately turn it back off... it does more harm than good

As for my HDR profiles... it is only for the TWO movies so far that have been released that are 4k60p... I have even more scaling profiles setup... Thanks for the tip, but I have been using profiles since they were added to madVR :)

QB



Are you able to play back 59.940 content like geminiman back without frame repeats?

The default 59 hz repeats frames every 40 seconds and nvidia won’t let me do custom timings for 59 or 60 hz. It keeps getting rejected.

[QBhd]

I don't use nVIDIA so I have no idea how you would go about setting custom resolutions... I just recently started using WASAPI audio renderer (I did not use this when I watched Gemini Man) and now there are no values reported back for clock deviation... I am not entirely sure I am going to keep this setup, but it does do away with the need for custom resolutions, or at least it seems to for the content I have watched so far.

QB

[chros]

The default 59 hz repeats frames every 40 seconds and nvidia won’t let me do custom timings for 59 or 60 hz. It keeps getting rejected.
That was the missing info from your screenshot. I'll take a look how much I get.

[tyguy]

That was the missing info from your screenshot. I'll take a look how much I get.


My screenshot above says 1 frame repeat every 37.75 seconds. Thanks for looking into this.

[chros]

My screenshot above says 1 frame repeat every 37.75 seconds. Thanks for looking into this.
Indeed, sorry :) With these default edid values (https://imgbox.com/g/PMfAo51pDO) (note that they are the same) I got ~50 minutes for 50p/60p.

[tyguy]

Indeed, sorry :) With these default edid values (https://imgbox.com/g/PMfAo51pDO) (note that they are the same) I got ~50 minutes for 50p/60p.


I keep getting an error saying that my drivers are rejecting the tings when I try and use edid. What nvidia drivers are you using?

[chros]

I keep getting an error saying that my drivers are rejecting the tings when I try and use edid. What nvidia drivers are you using?

Look at my signature. But do you enter it in CRU???

[tyguy]

Look at my signature. But do you enter it in CRU???


The timings are measured in madvr and they are rejected. If I enter it into cru the resolution just won’t show up in Nvidia control panel.

I’m using Tapatalk, so I’m not seeing a signature.

[Klaus1189]

Open this thread in a browser, preinstalled on every smartphone ;)

[chros]

If I enter it into cru the resolution just won’t show up in Nvidia control panel.

So, we are back to square 1 again :D
Use CRU!!! :)
Read again the old post I wrote the 24p values: using CRU won't add anything to NVCP but replace the set refresh rate in the operating system level!
That's the whole point using CRU (instead of madvr + NVCP)!

I hope it's clear this time. :)

[tyguy]

So, we are back to square 1 again :D
Use CRU!!! :)
Read again the old post I wrote the 24p values: using CRU won't add anything to NVCP but replace the set refresh rate in the operating system level!
That's the whole point using CRU (instead of madvr + NVCP)!

I hope it's clear this time. :)


They actually do show up for me in pc resolutions when I use cru. My custom 66 hz 4k shows up as well as my 23.976 refresh rate which is listed as 24 hz. I dropped back to a previous driver and imputed edid timings into cru (59.940 hz)and it actually did show up in nvcp this time as 60 hz.

Unfortunately I’m still repeating frames every 40 seconds.

I wanted to use madvr to measure timings that wouldn’t repeat frames and then just use cru to make the custom resolution. Unfortunately with the previous game ready drivers I still get the driver rejection error.

I might have to drop back to way older drivers, but then I’d lose gsync functionality and I do game, so it wouldn’t be worth it.

[Klaus1189]

40 seconds is typical issue of 23.976 fps played back at 24.000 Hz, see intel HD 24p bug.

Here it is similar, your 59.940 fps file is played back at 60.000.

It is the fps:1.001 which causes the 40 seconds issue.

[tyguy]

40 seconds is typical issue of 23.976 fps played back at 24.000 Hz, see intel HD 24p bug.

Here it is similar, your 59.940 fps file is played back at 60.000.

It is the fps:1.001 which causes the 40 seconds issue.


I’ve tried turning off switching in madvr and just using 59 hz and get the same thing. Composition rate is reading 59.940, but my display is something like 59.913 which definitely isn’t 60 hz.

[senzaparole]

Hello guys,
I own a B9 OLED TV.
After several tests, I decided to go back to the HDR to SDR conversion.
My settings are these:

https://i.ibb.co/ZBCB40d/hdr.png (https://ibb.co/Lxfxj3S)


https://i.ibb.co/0mbfdFQ/IMG-20200407-104022-1-ridotta-ok.jpg (https://ibb.co/tQrbWx3)

Finally in Calibration I set "disable calibration controls for this display".

Tips?
In "display peak luminance" I set 80. And in "dynamic target nits" 50. Are values ​​too low? Do I lose details?

[Klaus1189]

which definitely isn’t 60 hz.

You want 59 Hz.

Please be sure to know the basics of refresh rates:

23 Hz -> is for 23.976 which is exactly 24.000/1.001 Hz
24 Hz -> is for 24.000 which is exactly 24.000 Hz
50 Hz -> is for 25.000 Hz / 50.000 Hz and is exactly 50.000 Hz
59 Hz -> is for 29.970 Hz / 59.940 Hz and is exactly 60.000/1.001 Hz
60 Hz -> is for 60.000 Hz and is exactly 60.000 Hz

The other refresh rates are irrelevant because you want to playback your interlaced content like it should be viewed with "double motion resolution" of 25 Hz/29 Hz at 50 Hz/59 Hz

[tyguy]

You want 59 Hz.

Please be sure to know the basics of refresh rates:

23 Hz -> is for 23.976 which is exactly 24.000/1.001 Hz
24 Hz -> is for 24.000 which is exactly 24.000 Hz
50 Hz -> is for 25.000 Hz / 50.000 Hz and is exactly 50.000 Hz
59 Hz -> is for 29.970 Hz / 59.940 Hz and is exactly 60.000/1.001 Hz
60 Hz -> is for 60.000 Hz and is exactly 60.000 Hz

The other refresh rates are irrelevant because you want to playback your interlaced content like it should be viewed with "double motion resolution" of 25 Hz/29 Hz at 50 Hz/59 HzYes, I understand that and i've used 59 hz and posted the stats. Here they are once again.

https://i.imgur.com/GkwOcg7.png

and in case you are curious here is 60 hz. Im repeating frames no matter what. SLightly more often with 60 hz.
https://i.imgur.com/D1EWrPP.png

[tyguy]

Okay boys, I figured out what was going on. Gsync was engaging (im using a c9) I disabled gsync and it plays perfectly. Thankfully I can add a profile for my media player and tell it to use fixed refresh rate instead of turning it off manually if I want to watch 59 hz content. Gsync wont engage under 40 hz so that’s why I didn’t have trouble with playback of 23 or 24 hz content. Here are the new stats:

https://i.imgur.com/cHt71Ml.png

[Yviena]

Hmm seems that PC mode for 444 support is also clipping bar 17 unless I adjust brightness to 52 for 2.2, or 53 for 2.4 gamma in HDMI mode bar 17 is visible with brightness set at 50 though.

[tyguy]

Should I be using the latest beta build of madvr when using pixel shaders to tone map? Or is the latest general release fine?

https://i.imgur.com/RxZZdwA.png

[tyguy]

Im getting full chroma bandwidth without using pc mode as long as hdr is toggled in windows and im using rgb full. It works with all pictures modes too. This one was taken in game picture mode.

https://i.imgur.com/mIAfzkd.jpg

[Asmodian]

Enabling Windows HDR breaks that test pattern, it does not provide valid result anymore.

[tyguy]

Enabling Windows HDR breaks that test pattern, it does not provide valid result anymore.


Yeah, I tried out rtings test pattern and the last two lines are indeed blurry. I was excited for a moment. It’s unfortunate because pc mode works fine for me in sdr. is just completely broken though.

[Asmodian]

Yeah, HDR in PC mode is terrible on LG's 2019 (and 2017-2018). No 444 HDR for us. :(

I wonder how the 2020 models will behave.

[tyguy]

Yeah, HDR in PC mode is terrible on LG's 2019 (and 2017-2018). No 444 HDR for us. :(

I wonder how the 2020 models will behave.


I don’t see why it would be any different. Not much has changed with new models. Im hearing there is no difference in panel, but it got a better processor. They removed dts.

It seems like they removed 120 hz black frame insertion from the c9 just so they could add it to 2020 models.

It’s also annoying that not a single popular YouTube personality has picked up on hdr pc issues.

Evil Boris mentioned it in a tweet once but hasn’t made a video about it.

[adhara]

Hi Guys,

What would you change here below regarding my settings (with 65" OLED TV)?

HDMI:
Grephic Card: 0-255
Madvr: 0-255
TV: 0-255

MadVR:
PC Levels (0-255)
bitdepth: 10 bit
HDR: Passthrough

Source 2160p:
Reduce banding artifcats : off
image enhancement: off
Chroma: NGU AA /Medium
Downscaling: SSIM - 2D 100% + LL + anti ringing (relaxed)
Upscaling: Jinc + AR
Upscaling Refinement: off
Dithering: Ordered dithering / use colored noise

Source 1080p:
Reduce banding artifcats low/low
Reduce Ringing artifacts: on
Reduce Compression artifacts : off
Reduce Random noise: 1
image enhancement: thin edges:0.5 / enhance detail:1
Chroma: NGU AA / Medium
Downscaling: SSIM - 2D 100% + LL + anti ringing
Upscaling: NGU AA
Luma doubling: medium
Luma quadrupling: Let MadVr decide
Doubling: always - supersampling
Quadrupling: only if any upscaling is needed
Upscaling algo: Jinc AR
Downscaling algo: Let MadVr decide
Upscaling Refinement: off
Dithering: Ordered dithering / use colored noise


Source 720p:
Reduce banding artifcats low/low
Reduce Ringing artifacts : on
Reduce Compression artifacts : off
Reduce Random noise: 1
image enhancement: thin edges:0.5 / enhance detail:1 / adaptative sharpen:0.1 / AB+AR filters (100%)
Chroma: NGU Standard/ Medium
Downscaling: SSIM - 2D 100% + LL + anti ringing (relaxed)
Upscaling: NGU Standard /Medium
Luma doubling: medium
Luma quadrupling: Let MadVr decide
Doubling: always - supersampling
Quadrupling: only if any upscaling is needed
Upscaling algo: Jinc AR
Downscaling algo: Let MadVr decide
Upscaling Refinement: off
Dithering: Ordered dithering / use colored noise

Source SD:
Reduce banding artifcats low/low
Reduce Ringing artifacts : on
Reduce Compression artifacts : off
Reduce Random noise: 1
image enhancement: thin edges:0.5 / enhance detail:1 / adaptative sharpen:0.1 / AB+AR filters (100%)
Chroma: NGU Standard/ Medium
Downscaling: SSIM - 2D 100% + LL + anti ringing (relaxed)
Upscaling: NGU Standard /Medium
Luma doubling: medium
Luma quadrupling: Let MadVr decide
Doubling: always - supersampling
Quadrupling: only if any upscaling is needed
Upscaling algo: Jinc AR
Downscaling algo: Let MadVr decide
Upscaling Refinement: off
Dithering: Ordered dithering / use colored noise

[Yviena]

Is it possible to only use the HDR tonemapping found in madVR without the TV doing it's own thing on the C9?

[Asmodian]

No, no way to disable LG's tone mapping.

[SamuriHL]

The most you can do is limit its impact. On a C9 you can find the max nit level of your display and set a custom curve. As long as you keep the real display nits in madvr under that max nit value you will limit the built in tone mapping. But it won't disable it completely. Also turn off that stupid dynamic tone mapping nonsense in the C9.

[Charky]

Just curious : is that a C9 thing ? Because there is an option to disable Dynamic Tone Mapping on my C8...

[Asmodian]

That doesn't actually disable LG's tone mapping, it does calm it down though.

Edit: That makes the tone mapping not 'dynamic', it does not disable all tone mapping.

[SamuriHL]

Right, you CAN NOT disable the tone mapping completely. Dynamic tone mapping is a different beast altogether. Originally madshi theorized that by sending the dynamic tone mapping algorithm a tone mapped signal that it would "go away". However, that has not been the case. Worse, still, dynamic tone mapping on the LG OLEDs also messes with the mid-SDR range! Not kuel, man. LOL So yes, turn that nonsense off, for a C8 set madvr to a real display nit below 700 nits, and enjoy. Yes the internal static tone mapping will still be active but it's the least intrusive thing we can do on the LG.

[Charky]

I don't watch a lot of HDR content on my TV, but i don't really see whay's glaringly wrong with LG's DTM. If anything it makes the picture brighter, which is far from a bad thing considering how dark many HDR releases are, even in a batcave (see the recent original Star Wars 4K releases...).

Maybe I should worry more about theoritical nits curves and less about what my eyes prefer [emoji6]

[SamuriHL]

If you're happy with it that's all that really matters.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Asmodian]

I simply use passthrough myself. I can tune tone mapping for a particular scene of a movie but HDR mastering seems to be too inconsistent for me to be happy with any one setting for everything when I dive into it. I also don't watch that much HDR content and LG's tone mapping seems generally good to me. I have tuned tone mapping for one movie and then watched something else that did not work with those same settings while passthrough looked fine for both, if not quite as good as the movie I tuned for.

HDR mastering seems to be getting better, or more consistent at least, but maybe that has just been a coincidence with the last few UHD blurays I have bought. :p

[chros]

I simply use passthrough myself. I can tune tone mapping for a particular scene of a movie but HDR mastering seems to be too inconsistent for me to be happy with any one setting for everything when I dive into it.
...
I have tuned tone mapping for one movie and then watched something else that did not work with those same settings while passthrough looked fine for both
Are you sure you know what you're doing? :)
I use madvr's DTM for a year now, and never saw any outstanding issue with it (apart from the recently added HSTM with bright titles, like The Meg).

i don't really see whay's glaringly wrong with LG's DTM. If anything it makes the picture brighter,
It's true sometimes (!) but other times it darkens the already dark image. Just switch between 2 presets on the TV while you watch content, you'll see what we mean.
But, as always, there's no right-or-wrong here, use whatever you like. :)

[tyguy]

No, no way to disable LG's tone mapping.
If you use game hdr picture mode and select hgig under dynamic tone mapping it will disable all tonemapping on the tv.

[Asmodian]

Will it? How did you check?

My testing of Game HDR mode on my C9 showed very poor DCI-P3 gamut coverage in Calman Video Pro. I believe due to using the white sub pixels too much.

[VBB]

Supposedly yes, according to what's been posted on AVS over the past few months. But it's only available in Game mode, since it's a gaming feature, and that's just not good for calibration.

[Asmodian]

I see, yes Game mode has much worse HDR so it seems like using that to disable LG's tone mapping is counter productive. :(

[VBB]

On the plus side, one new CX owner said that he tested PC mode, and believes that the HDR banding issues have been fixed with the 2020 models. Will have to wait for more users to confirm that, but it would be great.

[Asmodian]

Very nice! I was hopeful that would be the case since they were talking up the HDR gaming quality. I saw a LG rep say they moved the HDR processing in the video chain to allow it to run in game mode with low latency. This made me hope PC mode would benefit as well.

I am still waiting for the 48" but I will report my finding once it is available. :)

[tyguy]

I see, yes Game mode has much worse HDR so it seems like using that to disable LG's tone mapping is counter productive. :(


You could also upload a custom tone curve with 100 percent roll off to remove tone mapping for one of the picture modes.

[chros]

Very nice! I was hopeful that would be the case since they were talking up the HDR gaming quality. I saw a LG rep say they moved the HDR processing in the video chain to allow it to run in game mode with low latency. This made me hope PC mode would benefit as well.

I am still waiting for the 48" but I will report my finding once it is available. :)
Well, I hope that's the case because:
- only 40gbps HDMI 2.1 (not 48): link1 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2020/05/04/lgs-2020-4k-oled-and-lcd-tvs-dont-support-full-hdmi-21/amp/), link2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K17xk82rA5E), link3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFJmjKJGx5o)
- do DTS decoding :D

The HDMI restriction doesn't make any sense, especially when the CPU supposed to be 15% faster and the GPU 50% ... Unless:
- they cut expenses with it (but I don't think so)
- they want to dumb down a product due to future models!
- image processing indeed has been changed (e.g. in PC mode), but this doesn't explain the missing DTS feature :)

Anyway ... LG ... :D

Btw, has anyone use/tried DisplayPort2HDMI adpater with LG Oled to get 10bit output at 4k full RBB? If so, does CRU work in this case?

[huhn]

you need active for this displayport 1.4 can only do HDMI 2.0 passive and active adapter are not yet released as far as i know.

[nevcairiel]

The HDMI restriction doesn't make any sense, especially when the CPU supposed to be 15% faster and the GPU 50%

Thats usually not a CPU restriction, but based on the HDMI transceiver IC, ones that do full 48Gbps are likely very expensive still and power hungry. If it was CPU, you would just disable some processing on the higher rates.
Luckily 40Gbps with 4K 120Hz 10-bit 4:4:4 RGB should be plenty for us.

The transceivers is also why "full" HDMI 2.1 AVRs are really not widely available yet, and I do have my doubts about GPUs supporting "full" HDMI 2.1 rates at the beginning either.


- they want to dumb down a product due to future models!


Why future models, their 8K TVs still have 48Gbps ports, because 8K actually needs it - but limited to two ports, which confirms the transceiver theory to me.

[SamuriHL]

A good reason not to worry about HDMI 2.1 for another couple years until they work all this nonsense out. I've got another 3 years to go before I even consider replacing my C8. By then, hopefully everything is all fixed. :)

[VBB]

Btw, has anyone use/tried DisplayPort2HDMI adpater with LG Oled to get 10bit output at 4k full RBB? If so, does CRU work in this case?

I used a DisplayPort-to-HDMI 2.0 adapter (Club3D) several years ago, and it showed up as an HDMI connection. I believe you only get DisplayPort features if it's on both ends, but I could be wrong.

[huhn]

this will "work" with an active 2.1 adapter which are planned.
one day: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14535/realtek-demonstrates-rtd2173-displayport-14-to-hdmi-21-converter

48 Gbps is not a huge deal to do. displayport 1.3 is already 32 gbps.
i have my doubts about displayport 2.0 80 gbps.
but just for ultra wide screen support 48 Gbps sounds like a desirable feature for the upcoming GPU and there are already 8K TVs.

BTW. i don't see any issue if a TV can "only" do UHD 120 HZ 10 bit RGB.

[Asmodian]

Well, I hope that's the case because:
- only 40gbps HDMI 2.1 (not 48):

I am totally fine with 10 bit RGB 4K @ 120Hz. :D

Spending a lot more for 12 bit over 10 bit for a final display format does seem pretty wasteful. Especially if it comes with no banding when using >8 bit input. I will never use the theoretical support for 12 bit RGB 4K @ 120Hz on my C9 even if I did have a GPU that could send it that. :p

10 bit is important but I am OK without 12, especially for madVR which cannot do >10 anyway.

Edit: Also the panels are only 10 bit in the end anyway.

[VBB]

Absolutely. The panic over the past few days at AVS has been hilarious to read, though. And yet, in either of the CX threads, the big question still hasn't been answered conclusively: Did LG fix PC mode in this year's model?

[Asmodian]

I am always saddened by the lack of interest in full resolution color, even among gamers who all have a full resolution source. Why does it have to be so obvious to me? :(

[SamuriHL]

so....10 bit, 4k, RGB, 120Hz, AND 444. Ok, that would probably pique my interest in an early upgrade. :D

[VBB]

Well, that's the holy grail :) Maybe add to that BFI that actually works without enabling TruMotion at the same time... wishful thinking right now.

[huhn]

the sonys can do that without motion interpolation and at 4:4:4.
the panel limitation still stays it's 50% frame time (which is pretty bad for BFI) and 60 hz only. the 2020 sony is know to support 120 hz too but no VVR for some very odd reasons. sony is just sony...

[tyguy]

I am totally fine with 10 bit RGB 4K @ 120Hz. :D

Spending a lot more for 12 bit over 10 bit for a final display format does seem pretty wasteful. Especially if it comes with no banding when using >8 bit input. I will never use the theoretical support for 12 bit RGB 4K @ 120Hz on my C9 even if I did have a GPU that could send it that. :p

10 bit is important but I am OK without 12, especially for madVR which cannot do >10 anyway.

Edit: Also the panels are only 10 bit in the end anyway.

The issue is nvidia doesn't allow you to do 10 bit at rbg or ycbcr 444. Its available at 422, but that isn't going to do it for you.

[huhn]

that's not correct.
it simply doesn't allow 10 bit if 12 is possible that really all that's to it.

[SamuriHL]

Like I said, I'll wait a few more years and see if they sort all this s*** out. :D I'm used to the limitations of my C8 at this point.

[nevcairiel]

The issue is nvidia doesn't allow you to do 10 bit at rbg or ycbcr 444. Its available at 422, but that isn't going to do it for you.

As others have said, you can do 10-bit if thats the only option. I can do 10-bit RGB to one of my desktop PC monitors, since it doesnt accept 12-bit.

[chros]

As others have said, you can do 10-bit if thats the only option. I can do 10-bit RGB to one of my desktop PC monitors, since it doesnt accept 12-bit.
Yes but does it help us LG owners? :) Does anyone know how to force 10 bit RGB with nvidia and LG?

[VBB]

You can't, at least not with consumer cards. The only option for 10-bit over HDMI is YCbCr 4:2:2 at this point. That has to do with what the HDMI standard officially supports. You can do 10-bit over DisplayPort with lots of other combinations, probably all that would allow it. Also, AMD has allowed to pick 10-bit outside of 4:2:2 for years now.

What @tyguy is saying, though, is that with the new LG CX/GX, as an Nvidia user you will most likely be left with 4K@120Hz 4:4:4 8-bit, simply because the TV cannot accept a 12-bit signal at this combo. This is due to LG's choice to go with 40 Gbps ports instead 48 Gbps. Not that that is a big deal in and by itself, because these panels are only 10-bit to begin with, but unless Nvidia decides to allow a 10-bit selection for anything outside of 4:2:2, we won't be able to use the most desirable combo for this particular TV.

All this is moot, of course, if PC mode is still the same as on previous models. In that case, 8-bit would be just fine, and HDR wouldn't be usable anyway.

[Asmodian]

HDMI 2.1 officially supports 10 bit 444/RGB @ 120Hz:
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/HDMI_2.1_Modes.png?width=960&height=540&fit=bounds

Source (https://hdmiforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/HDMI-Forum-2.1-November-Release-Presentation-EN.pdf?x18150)

Though I am curious about the HDR attached to 10 bit for this one mode, can we not send 10 bit 444 @120Hz SDR? Why?!?

[VBB]

Because at least right now, Nvidia does not allow us to do so at any combo. The assumption here is that they won't allow it with the upcoming cards either, but of course we hope that's not the case. The reason up until now has been that the HMDI 2.0 standard did not allow this, but like you said, 2.1 does. Fingers crossed.

EDIT: I realize that it is close to impossible to find truly accurate information on any kind of HDMI specs, at least nothing definitive on what bit depths at a particular resolution are officially supported. Charts are all over the place. Let's hope the one above is accurate. We also need to distinguish what HDMI is capable of and what is officially supported. I remember reading that the reason Nvidia never supported 10-bit outside of 4:2:2 with HDMI was that it wasn't part of the official specs.

[huhn]

HDMI even supports 16 bit it has it at the notes at the bottom to but then it list only 8 bit for a lot of modes.

so the list is not correct SD works at 12 bit too and if nvidia and your TV would support 16 bit it would work maybe nvidia would even force it then.

there is currently the rumour and this list shows this that 120 HZ HDR need 10 bit. but as we "know" the list is not 100 % correct or they cut support for stuff that works in 2.0 and older which is very unlikely. they are as official as it get's.

and even if we assume nvidia can't do 10 bit how long will you think it will take them to fix that after they added jus LG VRR HDMI support?
that's the first device where HDMI VRR works for nvidia before that it was limited to displayport.

so lay back until we get HDMI 2.1 nvidia cards (maybe very soon) then we know for sure.

[chros]

What @tyguy is saying, though, is that with the new LG CX/GX, as an Nvidia user you will most likely be left with 4K@120Hz 4:4:4 8-bit, simply because the TV cannot accept a 12-bit signal at this combo. This is due to LG's choice to go with 40 Gbps ports instead 48 Gbps. Not that that is a big deal in and by itself, because these panels are only 10-bit to begin with, but unless Nvidia decides to allow a 10-bit selection for anything outside of 4:2:2, we won't be able to use the most desirable combo for this particular TV.
This. A year ago I tried to fake only 10bit with CRU (https://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU?pid=8850#pid8850) but all it did was removed the 12 bit option without adding a 10 bit one.
Interestingly enough 12 bit option still remained with ycbcr 4:2:2.
So who knows how it is actually supposed to work. Maybe there is a combination of edid entries that allows it to select 10bit.
As others have said, you can do 10-bit if thats the only option. I can do 10-bit RGB to one of my desktop PC monitors, since it doesnt accept 12-bit.
With nvidia + hdmi cable? And which driver?

[SamuriHL]

You missed the IMPORTANT part of what Nev said there. It ONLY works if your display is NOT 12 bit and doesn't even accept 12 bit.

[nevcairiel]

I've not seen a TV yet that fits that description, since they all seem to happily take 12-bit. But either way, all speculation anyway until such a new TV and an appropriate GPU arrive.

[chros]

:) I'm not speculating, I'm talking about my current GPU and TV! :)

You missed the IMPORTANT part of what Nev said there. It ONLY works if your display is NOT 12 bit and doesn't even accept 12 bit.
And you guys missed the important part: I've been modding the EDID of the TV with CRU!!!! :) And it still doesn't work...

[kostik]

I guess will have to with AMD this time when they release a new GPU with HDMI 2.1 . I doubt NVIDIA will add 10bit 4:4:4 RGB\YCbCR

[chros]

Very nice! I was hopeful that would be the case since they were talking up the HDR gaming quality. I saw a LG rep say they moved the HDR processing in the video chain to allow it to run in game mode with low latency. This made me hope PC mode would benefit as well.

I am still waiting for the 48" but I will report my finding once it is available. :)
Now it's clear: there's no change in PC icon mode on CX (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3138274-2020-lg-cxa-gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-16.html#post59725052). :(

[Asmodian]

Well that is depressing, still no decent 444 chroma with HDR I guess. :(

[VBB]

And the one Sony guy who shows up in that thread then tells me he's never used PC mode :(

[RXP]

Thought I'd report my MadVR use with my C6.

My C6 has terrible Gamma tracking and greyscale. a 3D LUT fixed it nicely for SDR. It's dramatically different. No more crappy purple mess at low IRE's. HDR though is another story - still the same issue - looks pretty bad which is why I always thought HDR sucked. Until I got my C9 and realised it doesn't.

Because I can't do a 3D LUT (calibration, not tone mapping) due to the pattern generator not kicking into HDR I just ran a LUT in SDRBT2020. MadVR is buggy here - you have to enable and disable report BT2020 in the profile before the pattern generator outputs it. Anyway, now I have perfect tracking and greyscale in Gamma world.

Now i just tone map to SDR. I just saw my first movie on it yesterday, Hunter Killer, and it looked great. In the moment I didn't feel I was loosing out by the loss of light output in SDR (452 measured peak white vs 650 in HDR) and in fact I think it looked better. I didn't get any of the overly bright whiteness I assume is due to white subpixel dilution.

So if you're struggling with HDR passthrough or natively - give it a try! It's not all about peak nits. I'm finally happy with my C6 for HDR.

I've also realised that the "white boost" setting in my C9 is basically how HDR mode works. If you set it to off, the brightness is the same as SDR. So with the C6 SDR is like HDR without the white subpixel boost. See here for stats (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3045638-will-lg-s-new-switch-off-white-feature-improve-color-volume.html#post58171276)

[Asmodian]

Now it's clear: there's no change in PC icon mode on CX (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3138274-2020-lg-cxa-gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-16.html#post59725052). :(

There is one fairly major improvement for PC mode. HDR no longer sucks! This is huge for me, I still need to send 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 but I do not need to change the label to HDMI and lose 4:4:4 when watching HDR, unlike with my C9. Game mode HDR is also good. :D

Edit: You know, given how well this TV handles 12 bit input I will probably want to send it 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 all the time anyway, even once HDMI 2.1 GPUs are available. :p

[chros]

There is one fairly major improvement for PC mode. HDR no longer sucks! This is huge for me, I still need to send 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 but I do not need to change the label to HDMI and lose 4:4:4 when watching HDR, unlike with my C9. Game mode HDR is also good. :D
That would be more than surprising since the guys in the other thread confirmed the issue, and even Vincent mentioned this (https://youtu.be/NrRUTqfB_Ts?t=906) in his CX review for the first time! :)

You can test it by yourself if you want with these (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3138274-2020-lg-cxa-gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-14.html#post59700054) (especially II.).

[Asmodian]

That would be more than surprising since the guys in the other thread confirmed the issue, and even Vincent mentioned this (https://youtu.be/NrRUTqfB_Ts?t=906) in his CX review for the first time! :)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Banding is the same as before in PC mode, that is I was trying to indicate with still needing to send it 8 bit YCbCr :o.

The entire gamut used to be crushed, a "gamut volume" test would fail horribly. Now I measure the same volume and HDR color accuracy in any HDR mode with PC or HDMI set. Color accuracy tests do not notice banding.

When sending 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 limited doesn't have bad banding for me either, after a lot of fiddling with the calibration. Downloading your tests now but I doubt I will disagree with you. :)

[VBB]

Well, that is at least some good news. I'll be hanging on to my C7 for at least another year ;)

[Asmodian]

That would be more than surprising since the guys in the other thread confirmed the issue, and even Vincent mentioned this (https://youtu.be/NrRUTqfB_Ts?t=906) in his CX review for the first time! :)

You can test it by yourself if you want with these (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3138274-2020-lg-cxa-gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-14.html#post59700054) (especially II.).

When testing those HDR clips everything seems fine on my CX. Even when sending 8 bit RGB full range I don't notice any banding or weirdness. The first one especially is pretty dark and red but no banding. The second is brighter (and flashes a lot) but I didn't notice any banding either. I am probably just being blind but it is definitely not bad enough to be distracting. :o

I find the Blue Planet II Intro logo (https://www.mediafire.com/file/jclto58qpldutk8/Planet_Earth_II_Logo.mkv/file) a more difficult banding test, I can see banding with RGB full but YCbCr 444 is very good. I did take a while calibrating near black or maybe the software update helped? Or I am just blind? :p

[huhn]

or the 49 version is different or the screen creates the problem by upscaling the chroma or or...

[chros]

When testing those HDR clips everything seems fine on my CX. Even when sending 8 bit RGB full range I don't notice any banding or weirdness. The first one especially is pretty dark and red but no banding.
II. is not banding but posterization :) But if you don't see it then stop looking for it, and just enjoy it :)

[Asmodian]

II. is not banding but posterization :) But if you don't see it then stop looking for it, and just enjoy it :)

No, No. Screens are for testing, not watching things. :p

Hmm, I do notice near black posterization. Changing back and forth between PC and non-PC mode is so annoying now it is harder to test but if I pause on some scenes and switch back and for the difference is definitely noticeable.

I am still happy the PC mode can actually do somewhat decent HDR now and the posterization is not very bad. I wonder if we will ever get a TV that can do full quality with full res chroma. :mad:

[huhn]

the sony?

[Asmodian]

the sony?

Well, I need HDMI 2.1 and low input lag too. :(

But I do think it is likely my next TV will be from Sony. They will probably have caught up to the rest for 4K@120 Hz gaming by then and will likely still have the best imaging processing.

With even one HDMI 2.1 port their current OLED TV would have been very attractive. I am really liking this 48" over my old 55" though. I hope they sell well so other brands come out with OLEDs <55" too.

[huhn]

well it has HDMI 2.1 and 120 HZ support but no VRR.

[VBB]

Was it ever confirmed that the Sony doesn't have the same issues in its Graphics/Game modes? Those two are the ones that allow for full chroma, but I've never heard from even a single Sony user in that regard.

[huhn]

i'm not aware where PC modes degrades image quality on any sony TV.
the input lag get's massively lower so there has to be something.

edit: before even someone things sony is the holy grail or something they are not. they have banding problems like all other TVs they are freaking expensive. there strong point is pretty much there PC mode...

[VBB]

Would be great to hear from an actual Sony OLED user, though. It would make my next buying decision significantly easier.

[Asmodian]

well it has HDMI 2.1 and 120 HZ support but no VRR.

Sony doesn't have any 4K120 OLEDs this gen. :(
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/Sony_2020_TVs_HDMI.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds (https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1581346800)

[VBB]

As, I don't know if you're planning to get the Club3D DP adapter, but there's been a lot of talk about it over on AVS lately. A couple of guys have been using it with their C9s, and they got both RGB and YCbCr 10-bit @120Hz to work right out of the box. One of them reported that things in PC mode seem way better at that refresh rate compared to 60Hz. I don't recall seeing any reports from CX users yet, but what's a little troubling is that the above combos go slightly over the CX's 40 Gb bandwidth limit.

Are you on AVS, btw?

[Asmodian]

It looks like the first HDMI 2.1 GPUs will be out pretty soon but one is on the way, it could be useful other places too. I am suspicious about its use of DSC though:
With its DPTM1.4 DSC video compression technology, this adapter can convert DPTM1.4 video signals to HDMITM2.1 and support resolutions up to 8K (7680 x 4320)@60Hz**

LG has confirmed the inputs can do YCbCr 444 10 bit, I think using that as the bandwidth limit instead of a hard limit at 40.0 Gbps is a safe assumption.

[huhn]

i most likely get one of those adapter. but they can't do VRR.

but i have mistaken a useless 8k TV with an OLED so who knows maybe the VRR info is wrong too.

[VBB]

Judging by the HDMI diagnostics screen of one of the guys, there was no DSC involved to get this working. That's a good thing.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2758750&d=1594860388

It's been confirmed by Club3D that the adapter does not support VRR, and will not be firmware upgradable either (for that feature).

[huhn]

DSC is only used between the adaptor and the GPU HDMI doesn't know about it. and a chroma test pattern shouldn't help detecting it because it's not subsampling is more comparable with a video codec.

in the end DSC jsut depends on the setting set on the GPU. if you use a signal type DP can do without DSC it will do it without DSC. i can't remember if DP 1.4 can do 10 or 8 bit 4K 120 hz.

[cyberscott]

Judging by the HDMI diagnostics screen of one of the guys, there was no DSC involved to get this working. That's a good thing.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2758750&d=1594860388

It's been confirmed by Club3D that the adapter does not support VRR, and will not be firmware upgradable either (for that feature).

That would be me who posted the HDMI diagnostic screen on avsforum. :) I've been using the CAC-1085 with my C9 and RTX 2080 Ti for that past week. Finally got most of the video bugs worked out. It isn't exactly plug and play and requires a lot of patience and messing around with it.
Being able to play videos back on madVR at 4K@120Hz RGB Full 10 bit 4:4:4 is great! HDR works at the same resolution and bit rate. I can use 12 bit but not much of a point as the TV is native 10 bit and there is no change in picture quality that I can see at 12 bit.
I think the CAC-1085 is a fairly affordable stop gate measure until the next generation of graphic cards with built it HDMI 2.1 are released.

[VBB]

Hey Scott! Nice to see you here. I've been reading your posts over at AVS, and it's great to see you got it all working properly, at least on the video side. Since you say you're watching at 120Hz, my guess is you're using smooth motion. I've been looking forward to doing the same. Any noticeable difference compared to 60Hz from a perceived motion perspective?

[VBB]

DSC is only used between the adaptor and the GPU HDMI doesn't know about it. and a chroma test pattern shouldn't help detecting it because it's not subsampling is more comparable with a video codec.

in the end DSC jsut depends on the setting set on the GPU. if you use a signal type DP can do without DSC it will do it without DSC. i can't remember if DP 1.4 can do 10 or 8 bit 4K 120 hz.

Right, but what the photo shows is that the panel is using all three lanes, at 14.8 Gbps each. If DSC was used, it wouldn't use that much bandwidth. Unless you're trying to saying that the display has no idea about DSC being used for compression, and it just reports the uncompressed bandwidth as the end result. That could of course be the case.

[Asmodian]

I think the DSC is running on the display port side of the adapter, not the HDMI one, so the TV or anything plugged into HDMI would have no idea.

The maximum bandwidth of DP 1.4 is 32.4 Gbps, so it should max out at 8 bit 4K120 444, so 10 bit requires DSC to the adapter but not to the TV. This is fine by me, the TV looks better with 8 bit YCbCr 444 input anyway. :)

I think the CAC-1085 is a fairly affordable stop gate measure until the next generation of graphic cards with built it HDMI 2.1 are released.

Thanks for the report. It does sounds like it is a good solution. I don't mind a bit of fiddling.

[huhn]

Right, but what the photo shows is that the panel is using all three lanes, at 14.8 Gbps each. If DSC was used, it wouldn't use that much bandwidth. Unless you're trying to saying that the display has no idea about DSC being used for compression, and it just reports the uncompressed bandwidth as the end result. That could of course be the case.

that is the case because that's how an active adapter works.

the display get's a uncompressed signal it can't read the DP DSC anyway so the adapter has to decode it and output it to the screen uncompressed or again apply DSC (dumb). it has to completely repack the signal anyway DP 1.4 has 8/10 encoding while hdmi 2.1 has 16/18 and DP 2.0 will get 128/130 encoding.

HDMI 2.1 is suppose to have 4 lanes odd.

[kostik]

That would be me who posted the HDMI diagnostic screen on avsforum. :) I've been using the CAC-1085 with my C9 and RTX 2080 Ti for that past week. Finally got most of the video bugs worked out. It isn't exactly plug and play and requires a lot of patience and messing around with it.
Being able to play videos back on madVR at 4K@120Hz RGB Full 10 bit 4:4:4 is great! HDR works at the same resolution and bit rate. I can use 12 bit but not much of a point as the TV is native 10 bit and there is no change in picture quality that I can see at 12 bit.
I think the CAC-1085 is a fairly affordable stop gate measure until the next generation of graphic cards with built it HDMI 2.1 are released.

Too bad I don't have RTX card. With my gtx 1080 I am able to display RGB 12/10 bit with 60Hz max. And YCBCR 12\10bit 4:2:2 120Hz as oppose to YCBCR 4:2:0 8bit 120Hz . Takes time to switch modes correctly, needs a bit playing such as enabling and disabling AMD FreeSync premium (on CX ) and disabling Game Instant and it also doesn't survive reboots LOL. But overall, a nice addition till hdmi 2.1 cards are released ... I won't bother buying RTX card .

[cyberscott]

Hey Scott! Nice to see you here. I've been reading your posts over at AVS, and it's great to see you got it all working properly, at least on the video side. Since you say you're watching at 120Hz, my guess is you're using smooth motion. I've been looking forward to doing the same. Any noticeable difference compared to 60Hz from a perceived motion perspective?

I've been a member of Doom9 since 2007 but I don't do as much posting as other members do. :)
I currently have my smooth motion setting to "only if there would be motion judder without it". With that setting, I have rarely seen smooth motion turn on. For my system, I have experimented with setting smooth motion to "always" and have seen either no difference in judder to it actually causing some judder to be introduced where there hadn't been before.
As far as perceived motion perspective difference between 60Hz or 120Hz, watching at 120Hz without smooth motion tends to be as good or even slightly better than than 60Hz with smooth motion always on, at least on my hardware.

[VBB]

Do you have TruMotion and Real Cinema disabled? From the way you describe it, you should be seeing major judder.

EDIT: Now that I've re-read your post, I think I understand. At 60Hz, you did need SM on "always", but at 120Hz you do not to get the same or better motion. Makes sense to me, if Real Cinema stays enabled as well for a 5:5 pull down.

[cyberscott]

Do you have TruMotion and Real Cinema disabled? From the way you describe it, you should be seeing major judder.

EDIT: Now that I've re-read your post, I think I understand. At 60Hz, you did need SM on "always", but at 120Hz you do not to get the same or better motion. Makes sense to me, if Real Cinema stays enabled as well for a 5:5 pull down.

I'm using the LG C9 HDMI port in PC Mode which is the only HDMI mode that allows 4:4:4 chroma. I am also using Game Picture Mode Setting. In this picture setting almost all extra picture processing options are disabled / greyed out except for Black Level, Motion Eye Care and TruMotion.
I don't use TruMotion as it causes flicker and cuts the brightness in half and actually makes motion worse and I have Motion Eye Care disabled.
To summarize, I'm using madVR at 120Hz with no hardware motion correction. madVR is set to use Smooth Motion "only if there would be motion judder without it" and it seldom ever activates.

[VBB]

Gotcha. Forgot you're using PC mode, of course. Good to know that this combo works well without any processing whatsoever. My plan has been to use SM at 120Hz, just like I use it now at 60Hz. I prefer the frame blending on the OLED, but I realize that the effect will be lessened at 120Hz. Can't wait to jump in myself some time next year when I upgrade to whatever makes the most sense then (LG/Sony/Vizio, not necessarily in that order).

:D

[cyberscott]

Gotcha. Forgot you're using PC mode, of course. Good to know that this combo works well without any processing whatsoever. My plan has been to use SM at 120Hz, just like I use it now at 60Hz. I prefer the frame blending on the OLED, but I realize that the effect will be lessened at 120Hz. Can't wait to jump in myself some time next year when I upgrade to whatever makes the most sense then (LG/Sony/Vizio, not necessarily in that order).

:D

The 2021 Vizio Collection's OLED will be sourcing LG's panels.
They will have a lot of features on par with the LG C9 and CX and most likely be at a better price per inch. Something to keep on eye on as the sets might be out before the end of this year. https://www.vizio.com/2021-tv-collection

[huhn]

which is nearly for sure the same panel and taking vizio track record into account not "promising" to say it friendly.

[VBB]

I got nothing but love for Vizio! They've been pushing the envelope since the 2014 P-series :)

[nevcairiel]

The Vizios do look great on paper, unfortunately I was never able to see one in real life since they have not expanded to Europe yet. The 2019 Vizio P-Series would've been a real contender otherwise.

[huhn]

the p series has a 6.9 in the banding test from rtings.
port depending inputlag and port depending HDR.

i'm not taking rtings as perfect but 6.9 is quite a number.
they do good on peak brightness but that's gone with oled.

do not forget they don't produce panels they use the same as other TV brands so the processing is the difference and banding is one of the most important one you can mass up.

[VBB]

It's good for us here in the US to have another OLED competitor, since we lost Panasonic a while ago. You guys in Germany have way more options.

Aber meine Frau sagt schon die ganze Zeit wenn Trump die naechste Wahl gewinnt will sie nach Deutschland ziehen. Von daher kann es sein, dass mein naechster Fernseher ein Panasonic sein wird ;)

[huhn]

well Panasonic and 4:4:4 is it's own story.

but yes there is quite a selection of bad brands.

[nevcairiel]

You guys in Germany have way more options.


There are no actually usable brands left that actually make good TVs. Those that are left sell re-branded stuff from the big makers.

Its not really any better here. You get Samsung, Sony and LG. And maybe Philips (who use LG OLED panel), and Panasonic (which are not that awesome).

Although Philips is coming to the US, I heard. And I do like their Ambilight stuff. No HDMI 2.1 though. Maybe next year.

[aufkrawall]

I wonder if there is any OLED TV that features an sRGB clamp in PC mode (for basically everything SDR)? And if so, is it any good and not causing lag etc.?

Does using a 3D LUT created by DisplayCal offer increased quality vs. the automatic conversion for color managed applications (which madVR seems to be) when an ICC profile installed?

Do LG's wide gamut OLEDs in unclamped mode have similar oversaturation vs. wide gamut LCDs + RGB backlight?

[huhn]

only LG and Samsung are producing panels and consumer grade TVs at the moment maybe TCL too.

so sony and panasonic are rebranding too. so all other use LG samsung, orient, AU optronics or others.

what ever that's worth these days my old Philips had a phenomenal PC mode back at a time where PC mode was something unusually and it was the only TV i have ever tested that didn't produce banding. i was throwing 16 bit dithered to 12 bit at it and it didn't care.

[Asmodian]

I'm using the LG C9 HDMI port in PC Mode which is the only HDMI mode that allows 4:4:4 chroma.

Can you get 4K RGB/444 from the Club-3D CAC-1085 on the C9? Have you checked with ChromaRes (http://www.mediafire.com/view/40a9jrk3q03s7gk/ChromaRes.png) or similar?

I was finally able to get it to send 3840x2160@120Hz to my CX by switching to 2560x1440@120Hz first, power cycling the adapter, and then switching to 3840x2160@120Hz. I had a lot of trouble with it wanting to use 4096x2160 instead, sending a signal the ended up with a horizontally squished blurry 3840x2160 on the display. But the display shows 4:2:2 with the ChromaRes test pattern, it is in PC mode and Nvidia thinks it is sending 8 bit RGB full 3840x2160@120 Hz. :(

I have had trouble finding much on AVS too.

[huhn]

that sounds terrible maybe i skip on my adapter for now and live with 60 hz...

[Asmodian]

I think it is actually DSC not interacting well with the ChromaRes test pattern. It does seem fine in normal use, better than 4:2:2 and much better than 4:2:0 which is my only other option for now. I get to experiment with DSC too, so maybe not all bad.

Text is sharper than if I set Nvidia to 4:2:2 but ChromaRes looks about the same in either mode. There is a weird seam down the exact center of the display when using DSC. It is one pixel wide and only visible in the ChromaRes test pattern. It is very odd. It goes away if I set the output to 4:2:2.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/DSC_ChromaRes_Artifact_2.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

Power cycling the adapter is very common, not always but it often goes all weird with strange blocky image corruption when changing modes.

Edit: I can use 10 bit RGB as well, it looks about the same and I can see more steps in a 16 bit gradient dithered to 10 bit by madVR. 120 Hz without 4:2:0 is great, I have missed the higher refresh rate.

HDR works normally too, with the caveat that the adapter might need to be power cycled when HDR is enabled, it does count as a mode change. Limited/Full even counts as a mode change for some reason (DSC?). It needs a reset switch. :p

Now it is stuck in 10 bit mode?! This adapter is so weirdly buggy! ... and back to 8 bit, it finally went blocky instead of losing signal. It would lose signal when attempting to change to 8 bit but would come back without actually changing it. Reopening the control panel would be back on 10 bit. madVR always reported 10 bit for the display. I could change refresh rate, just not bitdepth. I power cycled it and unplugged from both ends a few times.. :confused:

Edit2: Yeah, I don't think this would work for normal people. Needing to power cycle it a large percentage of the time when switching into or out of HDR (or any mode) is not OK. madVR's FSE even counts as a mode change that might require a power cycle.....

[VBB]

There are several people with the adapter, mainly in the C9 gaming thread. Scott is one of them. Sounds like a mess right now, but in my opinion, no one can be sure what to blame until next-gen video cards are out and a complete HDMI 2.1 chain can be tested. In my experience with their previous adapters, Club 3D has been good about fixing things via firmware updates. They were easy to communicate with and understood the problems at hand. The only downside is that they don't post their updates on the website anymore (they did a long time ago).

[VBB]

As, you might have seen it already, but there's at least one guy who was able to get 4:4:4 to show properly on the test pattern. I want to say he was using RGB 10-bit at 120Hz.

[huhn]

thanks for the test does your TV have a screenshoot function? so we can get a better idea what DSC does on nvidia? if i still get one we could compare it with AMD DSC.

[Asmodian]

Unfortunately only from live TV, no screenshots of HDMI input. :(

[huhn]

could you try again with disabled HDCP?

[Asmodian]

How would I disable HDCP?

[huhn]

my panasonic can do that no clue if that's a general feature. doesn't even mean it will really fix your "issue" so to bad and time to move on.

[cyberscott]

Can you get 4K RGB/444 from the Club-3D CAC-1085 on the C9? Have you checked with ChromaRes (http://www.mediafire.com/view/40a9jrk3q03s7gk/ChromaRes.png) or similar?

I was finally able to get it to send 3840x2160@120Hz to my CX by switching to 2560x1440@120Hz first, power cycling the adapter, and then switching to 3840x2160@120Hz. I had a lot of trouble with it wanting to use 4096x2160 instead, sending a signal the ended up with a horizontally squished blurry 3840x2160 on the display. But the display shows 4:2:2 with the ChromaRes test pattern, it is in PC mode and Nvidia thinks it is sending 8 bit RGB full 3840x2160@120 Hz. :(

I have had trouble finding much on AVS too.
I have been able to get 4K@120 4:4:4 to work. Here is a link to a photo I posted on AVS Forum.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3123168-2019-lg-c9a-e9-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-43.html#post59953664
I do have a C9 and you a CX so there could a difference between the models.

[Asmodian]

Well, it looks like you have 4:4:4 as much as I do. Your ChromaRes test image looks exactly like mine. A very clear 4:2:2 and no sign of a 4:4:4 anywhere.

Otherwise it does seem like full resolution chroma, the lazy dog test image looks fine for me too, but it is apparent that something cannot handle the ChromaRes test image. It is probably DSC.

Thanks!

[Asmodian]

After more testing and input on AVS I think this subsampling is the fault of the TV. It simply cannot do 120 Hz and 4:4:4 at the same time, it even looks the same in PC mode and HDMI mode at 120 Hz. The C9 is the same. It is much better than 4:2:2 sent from the GPU but it is obviously worse than 60 Hz PC mode. A single pixel wide vertical colored line is another easy example, with color bleeding into the neighboring pixels. Comparing it to 4:2:2 from the GPU is weird, I would expect 4:2:2 to look basically the same no matter where it happened but whatever the TV is doing looks much better than my 2080 Ti down sampling to 4:2:2. :confused:

It even does the same thing in 1080p120 from the HDMI 2.0 port on my GPU. There is absolutely no reason it would need to subsample the chroma at 1080p120 since it can do 4K60 444 but it does anyway. I will still plug in the new GPU with a faint hope, but it is unreasonable hope. :scared:

I have been able to get 4K@120 4:4:4 to work.

Well, it looks like you have 4:4:4 as much as I do. Your ChromaRes test image looks exactly like mine. A very clear 4:2:2 and no sign of a 4:4:4 anywhere.


LOL I just noticed that your image there is a screenshot (it would be a rather clear photo...)! So the 4:2:2 I see is due to my screen. :o

Do you really see a 4:4:4 in that situation? And the adapter really switched to 120 Hz? Because it seems like the TV does not do 4:4:4 at 120 Hz. :confused:

[huhn]

did you do the usually test with sharpness i saw TVs showing 4:4:4 that where clearly subsampling.

in the end i only trust in the in 4:4:4 if the pixel structure really shows each pixel has a different value.

[Asmodian]

No, I usually use ChromaRes.png, and with that it was very clear that there was subsampling going on. A quick look at the lazy dog test image looked OK to me, but only because I don't usually use that one. Looking closer, or moving it, and it is obviously subsampling. Also, so much better than Nvidia set to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 that I went "Ah, it is working!" too soon. :o

I am curious how it looks to cyberscott, I would love so much to be wrong. Their report looks pretty convincing that it works, it would have been hard to miss read the ChromaRes image in that screenshot, (please ignore that I thought it said 4:2:2 before).

Looking the same in HDMI or PC mode when at 120 Hz is pretty conclusive to me and the adapter is so weird about actually changing settings that it might not have been on 120 Hz for that test? I don't see how I could do anymore testing myself, I think I tried everthing. I have not been able to get the adapter to work without DSC using CRU, so my faint hope is that maybe having a GPU without DSC and using the CRU method to get it working really can get the TV to display 4K120 without subsamping? The issue with 1080p120 is just because it has to scale it so with a proper HDMI 2.1 GPU I could get full chroma.

However, there are other reports at AVS that agree with my findings, one at least has a 1060 too. :(

Edit: reading again, I think you were talking to cyberscott, not me? Since I didn't see 4:4:4 that seems very likely. My reading comprehension fails again. :o

[huhn]

i'm talking to you.
i know how to quote at least sometimes.

i use the chromares.png too but i look out at the pixel structure not the 444 because i saw to many screens that show the 444 but are clearly subsampling but that doesn't matter again because you don't have the 444 so yeah.

keep up the good testing it's nice to see at least a couple of user been critical at the equipment they own.
before i can do a UHD 120 HZ 444 test i have to wait for a sony update so i'm pretty bad situation here sony is not reliable at all.

[cyberscott]

No, I usually use ChromaRes.png, and with that it was very clear that there was subsampling going on. A quick look at the lazy dog test image looked OK to me, but only because I don't usually use that one. Looking closer, or moving it, and it is obviously subsampling. Also, so much better than Nvidia set to 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 that I went "Ah, it is working!" too soon. :o

I am curious how it looks to cyberscott, I would love so much to be wrong. Their report looks pretty convincing that it works, it would have been hard to miss read the ChromaRes image in that screenshot, (please ignore that I thought it said 4:2:2 before).

Looking the same in HDMI or PC mode when at 120 Hz is pretty conclusive to me and the adapter is so weird about actually changing settings that it might not have been on 120 Hz for that test? I don't see how I could do anymore testing myself, I think I tried everthing. I have not been able to get the adapter to work without DSC using CRU, so my faint hope is that maybe having a GPU without DSC and using the CRU method to get it working really can get the TV to display 4K120 without subsamping? The issue with 1080p120 is just because it has to scale it so with a proper HDMI 2.1 GPU I could get full chroma.

However, there are other reports at AVS that agree with my findings, one at least has a 1060 too. :(

Edit: reading again, I think you were talking to cyberscott, not me? Since I didn't see 4:4:4 that seems very likely. My reading comprehension fails again. :o

From the photo I took, yes 444 is showing up dark as one would expect with 444 input. 422 is also showing up but a little faint.

When using a 4k, 444 "Quick brown fox" test picture, all the text is clear and sharp. If I drop the chroma down to 422, the text becomes less sharp and distinct as it should be at 422.


I think a lot of the chroma issues is that the CAC-1085 doesn't always processes the picture the same every time. It will mess up HDR on a regular basis when first enabled and even when disabled.
I'll get a thin, flickering vertical line made of lines that will appear sometimes on the screen about 8 inches on the right of the screen.
Changing resolution, HZ or power cycling the 1085 doesn't clear it.
The only way to clear it is to turn off the TV and turn it back on.

It is hard to get any consistent test results when when the CAC-1085 isn't consistent.

Even with all the intermittent issues, I do like being able to run 4K@120Hz 444, especially when using madVR and being able to get higher frame rates in games.

The CAC-1085 was always meant to be a low cost stopgap measure pending the inevitable release of the next gen video cards. NVidia may haver their 3080 series out late August or September. Not too far away for true HDMI 2.1 experience! (hopefully) ;)

[Asmodian]

It really seems like the TV cannot do 120 Hz and 444 at the same time though. I have rebooted everything with the CAC-1085 many many times, no change (odd artifacts sometimes but never better than 422). Text does look pretty good, not as good as it does at 60 Hz but better than I expected for 4:2:2.

Like huhn said to me, do you have sharpening enabled the TV? When I see 444 on the TV the 4:2:2 is basically invisible, except for the blue/red stripes at the top/bottom edges of the text. You should not be able to see both numbers, if that is the case the test pattern is not working. I suspect you have sharpening making the 444 visible, but I hope that isn't it. It is just so weird how it seems so specific and reproducible and I cannot get 444 with any mode that goes above 60 Hz. If you move the lazy dog pattern around do you notice any flashing in the red/blue text at the bottom?

Edit: Also make sure screen shift is off, it silently turns itself on when the TV is turned on so you have to turn it on and off every time. It does a slight zoom in some way that horribly messes up the image when subsampled, because of course it does. You probably aren't seeing this because it makes text look bad but it does mess with the test pattern too.

[cyberscott]

It really seems like the TV cannot do 120 Hz and 444 at the same time though. I have rebooted everything with the CAC-1085 many many times, no change (odd artifacts sometimes but never better than 422). Text does look pretty good, not as good as it does at 60 Hz but better than I expected for 4:2:2.

Like huhn said to me, do you have sharpening enabled the TV? When I see 444 on the TV the 4:2:2 is basically invisible, except for the blue/red stripes at the top/bottom edges of the text. You should not be able to see both numbers, if that is the case the test pattern is not working. I suspect you have sharpening making the 444 visible, but I hope that isn't it. It is just so weird how it seems so specific and reproducible and I cannot get 444 with any mode that goes above 60 Hz. If you move the lazy dog pattern around do you notice any flashing in the red/blue text at the bottom?

Edit: Also make sure screen shift is off, it silently turns itself on when the TV is turned on so you have to turn it on and off every time. It does a slight zoom in some way that horribly messes up the image when subsampled, because of course it does. You probably aren't seeing this because it makes text look bad but it does mess with the test pattern too.
Check something for me, if you could. When you have 3840X2160@120 RGB Full selected and running, use your LG remote, click on the enter /scroll button. That should bring up the LG overlay window with the HDMI port number and name which should be PC. Highlight the overlay, which should bring up the time, date, along with the resolution on the lower left corner. What is the resolution you see?
Before I used CRU to delete all of the 4096X2160 resolution instances, checking the LG overlay would always show 4096X2160 resolution, even if I selected 3840x2160 120 under PC resolutions in the NVidia control panel.
This prevented the 4:4:4 /4:2:2 photo from showing 4:4:4 properly.

After I deleted the 4096X2160 resolutions in CRU, I could select 3840X2160@120 RGB Full and 4:4:4 looked correct with the test photo. Also, the LG status overlay now showed the correct 3840X2160 resolution.
Deleting 4096X2160 resolutions in CRU only deletes that resolution under the "PC" resolutions in the NVidia control panel, they remain in the "Ultra HD, HD, SD" resolutions.

As a reminder, I have the LG C9 and use an RTX 2080 Ti.

Also, I have Sharpness at zero for all my picture modes.

Maybe this info will help you out. :)

[Asmodian]

So I just switched the adapter over to my C9 and lo and behold, 444 (also with a hint of the 4:2:2 due to non-perfect something, probably what you see). LG's new chip is worse than the solution on the C9?

Sorry, I should have done this already. :o

1080p120 looks like 444 on the C9 too. I hate you LG. :mad:

[cyberscott]

So I just switched the adapter over to my C9 and lo and behold, 444 (also with a hint of the 4:2:2 due to non-perfect something, probably what you see). LG's new chip is worse than the solution on the C9?

Sorry, I should have done this already. :o

1080p120 looks like 444 on the C9 too. I hate you LG. :mad:

I wonder if the if the C9's full 48Gpbs HDMI 2.1 ports vs the CX's
40Gpbs HDMI 2.1 ports have anything to do with it? Though 40Gpbs should be enough bandwidth for 4k@120 RGB Full @ 10 bit.

Being an older model, the C9 seems to have better benefits over the newer CX at least when it comes to the 1085.
Also, I know from my email discussion with Club 3D that they have been using the C9 for their testing of the CAC-1085. Not sure if they have access to a CX.

I'm hoping with the new graphic cards coming out before the end of the year , they will work without issues on both the C9 and CX.

[Asmodian]

I'm hoping with the new graphic cards coming out before the end of the year , they will work without issues on both the C9 and CX.

Will they? Fingers crossed. :o

Rumors of September for Nvidia's next GPUs.

Off to experiment with CRU for hours. :p

Edit: I have been unable to delete the stock 3840x2160@120 and 100 modes from the PC resolution section with CRU. I wish this TV said what format it is receiving in the HDMI info screen, the C9 does that too. The C9 worked with 444 right away, without CRU and using those same PC resolutions, so I doubt editing the EDID would help anyway.

[SamuriHL]

I plan on picking up a 3080ti myself but I ain't got a 2.1 screen to drive it with. That's ok, I don't plan on upgrading the video card again for a few years after that.

[cyberscott]

Will they? Fingers crossed. :o

Rumors of September for Nvidia's next GPUs.

Off to experiment with CRU for hours. :p

Edit: I have been unable to delete the stock 3840x2160@120 and 100 modes from the PC resolution section with CRU. I wish this TV said what format it is receiving in the HDMI info screen, the C9 does that too. The C9 worked with 444 right away, without CRU and using those same PC resolutions, so I doubt editing the EDID would help anyway.

You need to delete the 4096X2160 resolutions only in CRU and not the 3840x2160 resolutions. Not sure it will help with the CX but it can't hurt. Make sure that you pick the LG *active* screen. Sometimes CRU will put a non active screen on the top of the list.

[Asmodian]

You need to delete the 4096X2160 resolutions only in CRU and not the 3840x2160 resolutions. Not sure it will help with the CX but it can't hurt. Make sure that you pick the LG *active* screen. Sometimes CRU will put a non active screen on the top of the list.

I was just randomly trying to delete the working modes, I have a 2080 Ti so I don't need to delete anything to get it to work. I was seeing if I could delete the stock mode so I could then create a new one. However, even if I delete all the 120 Hz modes I can find I can still set 3840x2160 120 Hz under the PC modes in the control panel. :confused:

[bulaboy]

Hi all
I have an LG 65" C9 OLED connected to a PC with a GTX 1080. I've got MadVR installed, updated to madVRhdrMeasure113.zip
Is there a starting or recommended setting for HDR output? I'd like to use the "Tone map HDR using pixel shaders" option but the settings look daunting. I've searched and found different settings screenshots but none from an LG C9 user. I've tried to read/understand the setup Madvr for Kodi thread (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188) but still not clear on how to come up with appropriate HDR settings. What would be my display peak luminance? etc etc
Any pointers would be appreciated!

[chros]

Hi all
I have an LG 65" C9 OLED connected to a PC with a GTX 1080. I've got MadVR installed, updated to madVRhdrMeasure113.zip
Is there a starting or recommended setting for HDR output? I'd like to use the "Tone map HDR using pixel shaders" option but the settings look daunting. ... Any pointers would be appreciated!
I'll post it if I'll find my post on avsforum (the new forum engine killed all of my old links! :mad:)

[chros]

I made a discovery regarding to HDR10 issues in PC mode, trying Dolby Vision (https://www.avforums.com/threads/the-ultimate-oppo-media-device.2207229/post-28293177):
"using DV player-led: the very same issues are present (banding, posterization) like in PC mode with HDR10 content!!! (no matter whether PC mode is selected or not); it's like LG TV is switched to Low Latency DV mode (just like Sony Oleds), so it disables certain image processings, just like in PC mode with SDR/HDR10 content!!!"

This is truly "remarkable" :)
It tells me that these TVs (not just LG) require additional image processing when presenting HDR content (HDR10(+)/DV)!
This extra processing is not available on the LGs:
- in PC mode with HDR10
- in player-led DV mode (note that there's no chroma 4:4:4 using DV at all, no matter what mode you try)

So, if you care about picture quality, only buy a TV that has Full DV support, so Sony is out! :) (Even Vincent mentioned posterization with Netflix streaming on latest Sony AG9).

[huhn]

sonys DV support is at best "on paper"

[chros]

That is not even true!

[SamuriHL]

I'll post it if I'll find my post on avsforum (the new forum engine killed all of my old links! :mad:)

OT: The new forum design SUCKS!

[VBB]

I said that every time they changed the look of AVS in the past 17 years. Eventually I got used to it :)

Nice detective work, @chros. Makes me wonder, though, why D-Nice or jrref never mentioned that. Not that I can recall, at least.

[huhn]

That is not even true!

i'm pretty sure it's in the specs of there TVs and they ignored the rest.

[chros]

Btw, @j82k made a new discovery: you can turn off ANSD (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk.2962154/post-60020683) in In-Start service menu with "GSR Enable" option in the new firmwares of 2018 and newer LG models! :) (I'm not sure about older LG Oleds)
Here's the summary (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-oled-c8-owners-and-discussion.2162797/post-28296896) of the current state of LGs' ABL algos.
This is a big thing, thanks @jk82!

Unfortunately I'm stuck with v4.10.25 due to the massive black crush in newer B8 firmwares ...

[chros]

III. Communicating with B8 (firmware 04.10.25)

Big thanks to Sebastian Raff and his lgtv2 project (https://github.com/hobbyquaker/lgtv2)! (Similar project: LGWebOSRemote (https://github.com/klattimer/LGWebOSRemote))

*0. Prerequisites*
- TV:
-- TV must be turned on
-- under Network:
--- either LAN or WiFi connection is required (it works with just LAN enabled)
--- "LG Connect Apps (https://www.lg.com/uk/support/product-help/CT00008334-1437131798537-others)" must be enabled

- PC:
-- websocat (https://github.com/vi/websocat) command line utility (thx to Vitaly Shukela)
--- used this on windows (https://github.com/vi/websocat/releases/download/v1.5.0/websocat_win64.exe) and this one on Linux (https://github.com/vi/websocat/releases/download/v1.5.0/websocat_nossl_amd64-linux-static)
-- on Windows copy somewhere in your PATH (e.g. into C:\Windows)
-- to check whether port 3000 is open on the TV, use netcat: "nc -z -v 192.168.1.7 3000"

Note about the below commands:
- change the IP at the end of commands
- command switches of "websocat" binary may change by commands below!
- the "id" value doesn't seem to matter
- on Linux: put the JSON string in single quotes, e.g.: echo '{"id":"81d922ab0005","type":"request","uri":"ssap://audio/getVolume","payload":{},"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"}'

To turn on the TV:
- just send a magic packet to its MAC address, e.g. with: "wakeonlan AA:BB:CC:11:22:33"


*1. "Pair" the PC with the TV (register)* - getting the "client-key"
- first our device needs to be registered, that means that a newly generated client-key will be stored in the TV: whatever application "knows" this key can connect to the TV!
- the below JSON string can be used to register with the TV:
-- a popup should appear on the TV where a No/Yes button is available

Register:

ECHO {"id":"5f7a0d770001","type":"register","payload":{"forcePairing":false,"pairingType":"PROMPT","manifest":{"manifestVersion":1,"appVersion":"1.1","signed":{"created":"20140509","appId":"com.lge.test","vendorId":"com.lge","localizedAppNames":{"":"LG Remote App","ko-KR":"리모컨 앱","zxx-XX":"ЛГ Rэмotэ AПП"},"localizedVendorNames":{"":"LG Electronics"},"permissions":["TEST_SECURE","CONTROL_INPUT_TEXT","CONTROL_MOUSE_AND_KEYBOARD","READ_INSTALLED_APPS","READ_LGE_SDX","READ_NOTIFICATIONS","SEARCH","WRITE_SETTINGS","WRITE_NOTIFICATION_ALERT","CONTROL_POWER","READ_CURRENT_CHANNEL","READ_RUNNING_APPS","READ_UPDATE_INFO","UPDATE_FROM_REMOTE_APP","READ_LGE_TV_INPUT_EVENTS","READ_TV_CURRENT_TIME"],"serial":"2f930e2d2cfe083771f68e4fe7bb07"},"permissions":["LAUNCH","LAUNCH_WEBAPP","APP_TO_APP","CLOSE","TEST_OPEN","TEST_PROTECTED","CONTROL_AUDIO","CONTROL_DISPLAY","CONTROL_INPUT_JOYSTICK","CONTROL_INPUT_MEDIA_RECORDING","CONTROL_INPUT_MEDIA_PLAYBACK","CONTROL_INPUT_TV","CONTROL_POWER","READ_APP_STATUS","READ_CURRENT_CHANNEL","READ_INPUT_DEVICE_LIST","READ_NETWORK_STATE","READ_RUNNING_APPS","READ_TV_CHANNEL_LIST","WRITE_NOTIFICATION_TOAST","READ_POWER_STATE","READ_COUNTRY_INFO"],"signatures":[{"signatureVersion":1,"signature":"eyJhbGdvcml0aG0iOiJSU0EtU0hBMjU2Iiwia2V5SWQiOiJ0ZXN0LXNpZ25pbmctY2VydCIsInNpZ25hdHVyZVZlcnNpb24iOjF9.hrVRgjCwXVvE2OOSpDZ58hR+59aFNwYDyjQgKk3auukd7pcegmE2CzPCa0bJ0ZsRAcKkCTJrWo5iDzNhMBWRyaMOv5zWSrthlf7G128qvIlpMT0YNY+n/FaOHE73uLrS/g7swl3/qH/BGFG2Hu4RlL48eb3lLKqTt2xKHdCs6Cd4RMfJPYnzgvI4BNrFUKsjkcu+WD4OO2A27Pq1n50cMchmcaXadJhGrOqH5YmHdOCj5NSHzJYrsW0HPlpuAx/ECMeIZYDh6RMqaFM2DXzdKX9NmmyqzJ3o/0lkk/N97gfVRLW5hA29yeAwaCViZNCP8iC9aO0q9fQojoa7NQnAtw=="}]}}} | websocat_win64.exe ws://192.168.1.7:3000/ -n

Result: take a note of the registered "client-key"!!!

{"type":"response","id":"5f7a0d770000","payload":{"pairingType":"PROMPT","returnValue":true}}
{"type":"registered","id":"5f7a0d770001","payload":{"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"}}



*2. Running commands*
- note: replace the "client-key" as well with the one you got above

Request command: "api/getServiceList"

ECHO {"id":"81d922ab0005","type":"request","uri":"ssap://api/getServiceList","payload":{},"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"} | websocat_win64.exe ws://192.168.1.7:3000/ -n1

Result:

{"type":"response","id":"81d922ab0005","payload":{"returnValue":true,"services":[{"name":"api","version":1},{"name":"audio","version":1},{"name":"config","version":1},{"name":"externalpq","version":1},{"name":"media.controls","version":1},{"name":"media.viewer","version":1},{"name":"pairing","version":1},{"name":"settings","version":1},{"name":"system","version":1},{"name":"system.launcher","version":1},{"name":"system.notifications","version":1},{"name":"timer","version":1},{"name":"tv","version":1},{"name":"user","version":1},{"name":"webapp","version":2}]}}


Subscribe command (example): "audio/getVolume"

ECHO {"id":"81d922ab0005","type":"subscribe","uri":"ssap://audio/getVolume","payload":{},"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"} | websocat_win64.exe ws://192.168.1.7:3000/ -n

Result:

{"type":"response","id":"81d922ab0005","payload":{"returnValue":true,"volumeMax":100,"ringtonewithvibration":true,"scenario":"mastervolume_ext_speaker_arc","muted":false,"hac":false,"subscribed":true,"volume":0,"action":"requested","supportvolume":false,"ringer switch":true,"slider":false,"active":false}}


Request command: "system/getSystemInfo"

ECHO {"id":"81d922ab0005","type":"request","uri":"ssap://system/getSystemInfo","payload":{},"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"} | websocat_win64.exe ws://192.168.1.7:3000/ -n1

Result:

{"type":"response","id":"81d922ab0005","payload":{"returnValue":true,"features":{"3d":false,"dvr":true},"receiverType":"dvb","modelName":"OLED65B8SLC","programMode":"true"}}


Request command: "com.webos.service.update/getCurrentSWInformation"

ECHO {"id":"81d922ab0005","type":"request","uri":"ssap://com.webos.service.update/getCurrentSWInformation","payload":{},"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"} | websocat_win64.exe ws://192.168.1.7:3000/ -n1

Result:

{"type":"response","id":"81d922ab0005","payload":{"returnValue":true,"product_name":"webOSTV 4.0","model_name":"HE_DTV_W18H_AFADABAA","sw_type":"FIRMWARE","major_ver":"04","minor_ver":"10.25","country":"GB","country_group":"EU","device_id":"a8:23:fe:6e:57:77","auth_flag":"N","ignore_disable":"N","eco_info":"01","config_key":"00","language_code":"en-GB"}}


Request command: "com.webos.applicationManager/listApps"

ECHO {"id":"81d922ab0005","type":"request","uri":"ssap://com.webos.applicationManager/listApps","payload":{},"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"} | websocat_win64.exe ws://192.168.1.7:3000/ -n1 -B 1024000

Result is huge: lists all the available apps and their properties

{...{..."id":"amazon","title":"Amazon Prime Video"..."id":"netflix","title":"Netflix"..."id":"com.webos.app.softwareupdate","title":"Software Update"...}...}


Request command: "system.launcher/launch" to run any app by the id of the above list (e.g. Netflix, Software Updater)

ECHO {"id":"81d922ab0005","type":"request","uri":"ssap://system.launcher/launch","payload":{"id":"netflix"},"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"} | websocat_win64.exe ws://192.168.1.7:3000/ -n1

Result:

{"type":"response","id":"81d922ab0005","payload":{"returnValue":true,"id":"netflix","sessionId":"bmV0ZmxpeA=="}}


Request command: "system/turnOff"

ECHO {"id":"81d922ab0005","type":"request","uri":"ssap://system/turnOff","payload":{},"client-key":"94c78200f2aea197b7ae08820d09d9d1"} | websocat_win64.exe ws://192.168.1.7:3000/ -n1

Result:

{"type":"response","id":"81d922ab0005","payload":{"returnValue":true}}


So, the last command can be used to turn off the TV:
- to trigger it during sleep on Windows:
-- put it in a cmd script
-- use Task Scheduler and create a new task:
--- on the Action tab set the cmd script
--- on the Trigger tab create a new event:
---- On an event, Log: System -> Source: Kernel-Power -> Event ID: 42 (the sleep event)

Note:
- more commands are available in Connect-SDK-Android-Core (https://github.com/ConnectSDK/Connect-SDK-Android-Core/blob/master/src/com/connectsdk/service/WebOSTVService.java) (and missing from lgtv2 (https://github.com/hobbyquaker/lgtv2)):

ssap://com.webos.applicationManager/listApps
ssap://media.viewer/open
ssap://com.webos.service.tv.display/get3DStatus
ssap://com.webos.service.networkinput/getPointerInputSocket
ssap://webapp/launchWebApp
ssap://webapp/connectToApp
ssap://webapp/pinWebApp
ssap://webapp/removePinnedWebApp
ssap://webapp/isWebAppPinned
ssap://system/getSystemInfo
ssap://com.webos.service.secondscreen.gateway/test/secure
ssap://tv/getACRAuthToken

[chros]

What the hell, I just did a 3D-LUT reset (upload unity Lut?) for the HDR Cinema preset with DeviceControl on my C8.

And that completely fixed the ugly Cyan/Magenta transitions I had in various scenes of HDR movies.

To my eyes all of these scenes look good now with the unity 3DLUT, that ugly cyan/magenta transition is completely gone. I'm just baffled...
I haven't tried out this yet again, but I played with forcing Dolby Vision (https://www.avforums.com/threads/the-ultimate-oppo-media-device.2207229/post-28293127) from the Oppo with low-bitrate HDR10 content, and also as you have thought (when "conversion" works), there's no cyan bug there either (and no chroma 4:4:4 neither :) ).

Maybe I'll give resetting factory HDR10 3dlut a try again and try to compare it with factory 3dlut one and DV.

[Moksu]

Hi all
I have an LG 65" C9 OLED connected to a PC with a GTX 1080. I've got MadVR installed, updated to madVRhdrMeasure113.zip
Is there a starting or recommended setting for HDR output? I'd like to use the "Tone map HDR using pixel shaders" option but the settings look daunting. I've searched and found different settings screenshots but none from an LG C9 user. I've tried to read/understand the setup Madvr for Kodi thread (https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188) but still not clear on how to come up with appropriate HDR settings. What would be my display peak luminance? etc etc
Any pointers would be appreciated!

What kind of settings did you end up using? I'd really like to know also.

[bulaboy]

I'll post it if I'll find my post on avsforum (the new forum engine killed all of my old links! :mad:)

That'll be great if you could chros !!!

What kind of settings did you end up using? I'd really like to know also.

Honestly Moksu my settings are kinda the default, and it looks/feels wrong, which is why I was asking for what others are using.

[chros]

That'll be great if you could chros !!!
Here it is (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/post-60025149) (since I couldn't find the old post quickly).

[Magik Mark]

Guys,

Any feedback on the latest Nvidia driver under our LG Oled?

[SamuriHL]

What kind of feedback are you looking for specifically? Hdr works properly. Clocks are more stable with less repeated /dropped frames. Vbb is playing with ycbcr 444 8 bit pc mode which seems not so bad.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Magik Mark]

How about when in hdr mode it switches back to sdr when gui of the player is activated?

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

Still going like the energizer bunny. LOL Yea that happens to me in JRiver. But it goes back to HDR after.

[VBB]

The new driver works great. It goes in and out of HDR without a hitch (at least with MPC-HC), 23Hz timing went from a frame drop every 4.5 minutes to once every hour.

Once installed, I started messing with PC mode again, after having used normal mode for almost two years, it seems. I started with YCbCr 4:4:4 8-bit, knowing that this would result in much reduced banding compared to RGB. For some reason that I have not been able to figure out (probably the Denon AVR in the chain), HDR playback tinted the whole screen green. So, last night, I switched to RGB full 8-bit, remembering what Ted recently posted over at AVS (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-60061785) (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lg-2017-oled-calibration-thread-and-settings.2853954/post-60087088). The most important thing I took away from this, since I still want to use PC mode, is to simply not put the TV into black level HIGH mode (0-255).

And Ted is right: there is almost no banding in SDR and significantly less banding in HDR with the chain set to video card RGB Full, madVR tv levels (16-235), LG black level LOW. The downside is that everything outside of video playback will have wrong levels, but I can live with that.

[Magik Mark]

Thank You for Sharing this.

PC full 8bit - Madvr TV level 8bit - LG 422 10bit low

Right?

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

No, not if you're talking about what VBB has posted. He's talking about this:

LG: PC mode (444) 8 bit black low
PC: RGB full 8 bit
madvr: TV level (16-235) 8 bit

Once you enable PC mode on the LG (by changing the HDMI input's icon to the PC icon) it'll be 444 8 bit, not 10 bit.

[Asmodian]

LG: PC mode (444) 8 bit black low
PC: RGB full 8 bit
madvr: TV level (16-235) 8 bit

I would agree with VBB, this is ideal for madVR quality, but everything except madVR will be wrong (crushed shadows/highlights). I use full in madVR and limited (TV) on the PC so everything else is correct too.

[Magik Mark]

Thank you for clarifying this. I think I'll be sticking to the setting as recommended by SamuriHL

PC: 422 10bit
MadVR: Full 10bit
LG: Default Video Mode (Non PC)

Better Black detail

[Asmodian]

I really hate setting the PC to 422. :(

The TV in "HDMI" is also 422 internally but it still looks much better than sending 422 from the video card.

PC: 444 8bit (10bit if you have the bandwidth)
MadVR: Full 10bit
LG: Default Video Mode (HDMI)

The above looks better to me, at least when I test on my C9 (and CX). Black detail is the same and the image is sharper. Switching to 8 bit does not change the image much, if at all, so it is a much better option than 422 if you cannot use 444 10 bit due to bandwidth limits. 422 resizes 2/3 of the video data to 1920x2160, this does make it blurry relative to leaving it full resolution. 10 bit v.s. 8 bit is much less significant. If black detail changes you probably have a black level mismatch. The LG TVs seem to do better with limited range, what they call "low" black level, and sending full range will cause clipping in shadows and highlights. YCbCr 422 is always limited range from the GPU so that might be why switching to it seems to improve shadow detail, but use YCbCr 444 instead.

[VBB]

Either one is fine. It really comes down to whether you absolutely want/need full chroma. I've always been chasing it, but the banding in PC mode was more than I could handle. So, for the past two years or so, I used YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit @60Hz with smooth motion in normal HDMI mode. Absolutely no complaints there. When Nvidia released the new driver with the much improved timing, I figured I could stop using smooth motion and go back to refresh rate switching. At the same time, I felt like I should scratch the old chroma itch once more, so I ended up with RGB (which I had previously used for quite some time back when I first got the TV). I have to watch some more HDR material to really judge the banding, but from what I've seen so far, it's looking good. Amazing how I can still find stuff to mess with after three years of ownership :D

[SamuriHL]

Thank you for clarifying this. I think I'll be sticking to the setting as recommended by SamuriHL

PC: 422 10bit
MadVR: Full 10bit
LG: Default Video Mode (Non PC)

Better Black detail

Those were not MY settings, just to be clear. :) Someone else had posted it (VBB maybe it was you initially can't remember) and I was using them for a while. But after my last calibration I had switched back to RGB full 8 bit, madvr TV levels 8 bit, non-PC mode on the C8. However, I'm currently testing PC mode with these settings just to see how it looks. I've seen issues already so I don't know if I'll keep this.

[VBB]

Well, tell us what issues you're seeing! :P

[SamuriHL]

What do you think I'm seeing? LOL Banding and posterization. These TV's just DO NOT like PC mode. :(

[Asmodian]

Personally I find full resolution chroma very important but I was surprised by the difference in quality when the GPU subsamples before sending it to the TV which is already working in 422 internally.

With the TV in HDMI mode most inputs look pretty good but I do notice a larger difference between the GPU sending 422 and 444 than I do between TV in HDMI and TV in PC mode. If I send the TV YCbCr 444 limited and switch between HDMI and PC modes it is not that obvious unless I am using ChromaRes.png*, but if even if I leave the TV in HDMI mode and switch the GPU between 422 and 444 it gets obviously worse with the GPU in 422. The TV in PC mode and the GPU sending 422 looks much worse than the TV in HDMI mode and the GPU sending 444.

*These LG's all have more banding in PC mode, and lots more banding with 10 bit input when in PC mode, so this change can be quite obvious when looking at a banding test pattern. PC mode on these LG OLEDs is weird; on my CX, and to a lesser extent on my C9, YCbCr 444 limited has noticeably less banding than RGB full input when in PC mode. I would think PC mode would be tuned for RGB full 60 Hz input. Maybe I notice less banding with YCbCr 444 limited because that is what it is using when I do a calibration with Calman? This might be why the TVs always have less banding for me when set to black level low too.

I can see not using PC mode on these LG OLEDs, it does have issues, but that does not mean I can condone sending 422 from the GPU. ;)

[SamuriHL]

I calibrate mine in RGB using Colourspace. I don't think I played with YCbCr 444 limited when I did PC mode but I can take a look at that. You'd think I'd have little to no banding with RGB given that's how it was calibrated. Maybe I'll do a fresh calibration in PC mode when I get a free minute and see if that improves it. I have no way to bit accurately calibrate in YCbCr.

[VBB]

(Part of) the reason YCbCr 4:4:4 has less banding is because Nvidia dithers it by default. RGB is not dithered by default, but if you dither it with, for example, Vince's tool, the result is pretty much the same as YCbCr (you can also remove the default dithering from YCbCr to get it to look like RGB). And the fact that a 10-bit input has more banding in PC mode seemingly has to do with PC mode switching the TV into 8-bit mode. Why LG decided to do it this way and to this day is anyone's guess. Most likely to save on processing.

SamuriHL, did you change to black level LOW and madVR set to 8-bit?

[Asmodian]

I have no way to bit accurately calibrate in YCbCr.

Does ColourSpace (HTL?) use a full range pattern for the 1D LUTs with the internal generator or does it not use the internal generator? I could not avoid failing calibration when trying to do a full range calibration with the internal pattern generator with Calman.

I got pretty good results for PC mode calibration with Calman but less or no banding/posterization with full range RGB input would be wonderful. :(

I am seriously considering switching to using my 48" CX in HDMI mode with 120 Hz 10 bit RGB full input. The banding in PC mode is frustrating me more than the lost resolution does, as long as it is the TV that does the subsampling. Maybe some sour grapes too, since the CX cannot do 120 Hz with full resolution chroma even when in PC mode. :o

And the fact that a 10-bit input has more banding in PC mode seemingly has to do with PC mode switching the TV into 8-bit mode.

Wow! that makes a lot of sense. Well, it actually doesn't make any sense but it does match what it looks like.

(Part of) the reason YCbCr 4:4:4 has less banding is because Nvidia dithers it by default. RGB is not dithered by default, but if you dither it with, for example, Vince's tool, the result is pretty much the same as YCbCr (you can also remove the default dithering from YCbCr to get it to look like RGB).

Yeah, but PC mode really seems to need this dithering and limited range so YCbCr 444 is a good compromise. I haven't done much testing between limited YCbCr and full range RGB in HDMI mode but with what I have done limited YCbCr still seems better. It might still be the dithering in that case too though.

[SamuriHL]

SamuriHL, did you change to black level LOW and madVR set to 8-bit?

Yes, the LG is set to low for all modes.

[SamuriHL]

Does ColourSpace (HTL?) use a full range pattern for the 1D LUTs with the internal generator or does it not use the internal generator? I could not avoid failing calibration when trying to do a full range calibration with the internal pattern generator with Calman.


I have a C8 so your question is invalid. :p :D Also, I don't do a 1D lut. I keep the factory 1D lut because any time you touch the 1D lut on these foolish LG OLED's it introduces all kinds of problems. Literally just resetting it will cause problems. So I skip that and only generate a 3D lut after doing a service menu white balance adjustment. And yes, HTL.


I got pretty good results for PC mode calibration with Calman but less or no banding/posterization with full range RGB input would be wonderful. :(


I gave up on Calman. I own it. I'm not renewing it. I don't want to get into that discussion.


I am seriously considering switching to using my 48" CX in HDMI mode with 120 Hz 10 bit RGB full input. The banding in PC mode is frustrating me more than the lost resolution does, as long as it is the TV that does the subsampling. Maybe some sour grapes too, since the CX cannot do 120 Hz with full resolution chroma even when in PC mode. :o



Wow! that makes a lot of sense. Well, it actually doesn't make any sense but it does match what it looks like.


Seriously, it's complete and total BS. Thanks, LG. LOL


Yeah, but PC mode really seems to need this dithering and limited range so YCbCr 444 is a good compromise. I haven't done much testing between limited YCbCr and full range RGB in HDMI mode but with what I have done limited YCbCr still seems better. It might still be the dithering in that case too though.

I may screw with that and see what it looks like. YCbCr 422 limited 10 bit worked well for me. This sounds even more promising. Yea, the panel is calibrated for RGB but it is what it is.

[chros]

What do you think I'm seeing? LOL Banding and posterization. These TV's just DO NOT like PC mode. :(
Yes, there is posterization.

(Part of) the reason YCbCr 4:4:4 has less banding is because Nvidia dithers it by default. RGB is not dithered by default
Yes, but madvr does! So what's happening with that? :)

but if you dither it with, for example, Vince's tool
This one (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2020-lg-cx%E2%80%93gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-and-pc.3138274/post-59699820)? Is this the latest version?

Which command line did you use for different scenarios? I used:
- NvColorControl 12 RGB 1 2 4
- NvColorControl 12 RGB 0 2 0
- NvColorControl 8 RGB 1 1 4
- NvColorControl 8 RGB 0 1 0

And the fact that a 10-bit input has more banding in PC mode seemingly has to do with PC mode switching the TV into 8-bit mode. Why LG decided to do it this way and to this day is anyone's guess. Most likely to save on processing.
I know that Ted is pushing the PC mode is crap with 8bit agenda, but It's not 8 bit, try it out with Mehanik's HDR10 test pattern:
"03. Grayscale\04. 10bit test\01. test_10-bit_23.976.mp4"

And I saw the difference in real scenes as well (back in the day when I checked it) in shadow details.
That's why I refuse to put out 8bit with hdr.

Lastly, as I said, check (in a dark room) II. from here (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2020-lg-cx%E2%80%93gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-and-pc.3138274/post-59700054) for posterization, shitshow starts from 3 min :)

And about Full vs Limited mode of the TV: if you calibrated your chain with Full and you switch to Limited then you have to calibrate it again :)

[SamuriHL]

There's a couple things you're glossing over. Yes madvr dithers. However it still has to get sent through the gpu after that before making it to the tv. And that tends to be a black box as to what it ends up doing to the video. It depends on how it's configured... See below.

As for full vs limited, people get that confused too. I'm not ever running my tv in full. Even if I set the gpu to full! Gasp whaaaaattttt?! Lol this is because in order to send a full signal madvr and the gpu both have to be set to full which I don't do. If I have the gpu set to full I have madvr set to tv levels. If I'm playing with one of the limited output in the gpu then madvr will be set to pc levels.

Obviously the best case is to run everything at full including the tv with black levels set to high. This ensures the gpu and madvr play nice together and no conversions are done. But we have lg oled. So while that's a nice theory the reality is the oled is doing stupid things to the full signal which ends up causing artifacts. These tvs really expect a limited signal. So second prize is the way I have it set up where madvr embeds the limited signal inside a full gpu signal. Gpu leaves it alone and the tv sees it as a limited signal. This gives the least amount of conversions and least amount of artifacts.

I've tried calibrating to full and it doesn't fix the issues. Very annoying.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

Now that I'm thinking about vbb's idea of ycbcr 444 full more that actually might work best with these foolish panels. The reason is that madvr will embed a limited signal, the gpu will convert it from rgb to ycbcr using dithering, and the oled expects that as a signal from consumer devices anyway so that's likely the format it handles the best internally. Yes it'll still do a conversion but it does it better than on rgb. Interesting.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Magik Mark]

Can we use ycbcr 444 10bit in gpu?

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

Not at 60hz no.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[chros]

There's a couple things you're glossing over. Yes madvr dithers. However it still has to get sent through the gpu after that before making it to the tv. And that tends to be a black box as to what it ends up doing to the video. It depends on how it's configured... See below.
I don't think so, maybe you are (?) :)
There's no different config options about the case I talked about: madvr dithers to 8bit, gpu outputs RGB full 8bit.
I'm not telling that it can't happen. I'm asking if it happens that how on earth?! :)

As for full vs limited, people get that confused too. I'm not ever running my tv in full.
I'm not confused, maybe I wasn't clear enough. And that's you, but I use full on the TV (black level high). I talked about only the black level setting on the TV (high/low), nothing else.
What I meant was: if you already calibrated your chain using full range on the TV (black level high) and if you switch to limited range on the TV (black level low) then no matter how correctly your chain is set up, your calibration is obsolete.
The reason behind this is that (as you guys said) the TV works differently with full range vs limited range.

Now that I'm thinking about vbb's idea of ycbcr 444 full more that actually might work best with these foolish panels. The reason is that madvr will embed a limited signal, the gpu will convert it from rgb to ycbcr using dithering, and the oled expects that as a signal from consumer devices anyway so that's likely the format it handles the best internally. Yes it'll still do a conversion but it does it better than on rgb. Interesting.
I'm 100% sure that posterization will be present, there's no way around it. See my post recently about LLDV (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1920202#post1920202) (and that is using "HDMI" limited mode, not even PC mode), that's exactly how PC mode looks in the best case.

[SamuriHL]

Conclusion....LG sucks and we continue to wait for better screens. Which is why I have zero intention of replacing my C8 any time soon. What good is 120hz and HDMI 2.1 when they have the same or similar problems? If they can't get the basics right, I certainly don't trust them to get more advanced features correct.

[Asmodian]

Can we use ycbcr 444 10bit in gpu?

Yes, with the very new 3000 series GPUs. HDMI 2.1 out is finally available!

The 3080 seems to be out of stock at the moment but I hope to get a 3090 by the end of October, at the latest. It also looks like there will be a 3060 and 3070 within a few months, unsurprisingly.

The reason behind this is that (as you guys said) the TV works differently with full range vs limited range.

And I hate them for it. Why can't I update the internal calibration LUTs with Calman for full range? :p

I'm 100% sure that posterization will be present, there's no way around it. See my post recently about LLDV (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1920202#post1920202) (and that is using "HDMI" limited mode, not even PC mode), that's exactly how PC mode looks in the best case.

But it is less than with RGB input. Especially on my CX it is pretty good with 8 bit YCbCr 444 limited in PC mode. But yes, it still has more posterization and banding than in a non-PC mode. :(

Conclusion....LG sucks and we continue to wait for better screens. Which is why I have zero intention of replacing my C8 any time soon. What good is 120hz and HDMI 2.1 when they have the same or similar problems? If they can't get the basics right, I certainly don't trust them to get more advanced features correct.

I will not fault you for this attitude, I would love better processing with for 10 bit RGB 120 Hz input now that I can send it. Someone else will come out with an OLED with good full res chroma processing and full HDMI 2.1 bandwidth in the near future, maybe Sony in a year or two. Who knows, maybe even LG will fix it.

That said the C9 and CX look good with 10 bit RGB 120 Hz input in a non-PC mode (The CX's PC mode is fine with 120 Hz input too, but it is not 444). LG sucks at 444 chroma but if you drop that everything else is pretty good. :(

HDR in PC mode is way better on the CX than on the C9 but SDR PC mode is about the same. I am not sure this helps anyone but if the banding isn't too bad (e.g. using aggressive dithering when converting to limited 8bit YCbCr 444) you can actually use PC mode for HDR content! HDR in PC mode on the C9 and earlier is absolutely terrible, tone mapping does not work properly so everything is very undersaturated.

All my posts about these TVs get too long... there are always caveats and special cases! :devil:

[SamuriHL]

That's why I, and I suspect others, are frustrated. There's no reason for any of this other than either laziness or stupidity on LG's part. Or they just don't care. I can understand this being a problem on one year's lineup of panels, but, 4 or 5 years in a row with barely an improvement? That's not really all that acceptable. Even things like the 1D lut problems, which portrait displays continues to say is an LG problem that they've promised a fix for, is still a problem after how long? These are basic, basic things that you as a consumer should expect to work out of the box...at least between generations of panels! My C8 is a known quantity and I know its limitations. I don't like them, but, at least I know what they are. Until one of these unicorn panels comes out that just works out of the box for all the things we want to do with it, I will sit on the C8. Not to mention that will buy me time to upgrade my receiver yet again for HDMI 2.1 while I wait. And time to find a 3080. BAHAHAHAHA. Maybe I'll get one for my birthday next year. LOL

[VBB]

Hey, at least I revived the thread! ;)

[SamuriHL]

Gee, thanks for that. LMAO :D LOL!

[Magik Mark]

Turns out 30 series cards have problems with C9 and CX

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2020/09/20/lg-oled-tvs-having-issues-with-latest-nvidia-rtx-30-graphics-cards/#4179cdc0267a

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

For crying out loud, LG, can you guys get ANYTHING right? "Oh we'll fix it in a firmware update!" Yea right. Good luck with that.

[Asmodian]

I find the article weird because I get the same issue with no 444 at 120 Hz with my 2080 Ti and a Club3D CAC-1085. That is a problem with the TV and has nothing to do with the 3000 series. The HDMI 2.1 G-sync black screen issue is the 3080 and has nothing to do with the TV (except it is one of the few HDMI 2.1 g-sync compatible displays). Two separate issues are being weirdly conflated, I get why but it is a really sloppy article.

I am also skeptical a firmware update will fix it but I am eternally hopeful. :o

The firmware was really broken when I got the CX, and it is still buggy in other ways, so it seems possible the TV sees 120 Hz input and automatically does something that results in 422 that they can turn off with a firmware change. It might increase latency or have some other negative consequence too. For example, can the CX hardware tone map HDR 120 Hz 444? Since better HDR tone mapping in PC mode is the only difference the CX has with the C9's video chain (that I know of, of course) it might explain why the CX is cannot do 444 at 120 Hz but the C9 can.

[oldpainlesskodi]

I just want to say - thanks for the heads up....I'll stay away from these panels, and stick with what I have (with no issues).

I'll have a dual room setup one day - when they perfect short throw laser projectors contrast issues, and then, TV in the lounge and a PJ in the cinema room.

K

[VBB]

It's really not all as bad as it sounds. I love my OLED, and I don't ever regret buying it, flaws and all. It's still the technology to beat at this point, but I can agree that it's not for everyone and every use case.

[VBB]

Question for the guys with anything newer than a 7-series: In PC mode, is the gamut still locked to WIDE? If so, and if you didn't use a 3D LUT and selected "this display is already calibrated", would it then make sense to set the gamut in madVR to DCI-P3, since the OLEDs come close to covering that in native mode? I've been using 3D LUTs for so long that I've never opted for anything else, but with my meter being from 2013 I don't want to do a new LUT at this time.

[chros]

It can be Yes to your question, or set Auto gamut and bt709 in madvr. Maybe the latter is the better since madvr doesn't have to do anything with SDR content.
On B8 you can select gamut in PC mode (Wide/Extended/Auto) in both SDR and HDR10. I also use 3dlut for SDR and gamut is set to Wide.

So, did you manage to test HDR10 modes during the weekend? What did you end up with? :)

[VBB]

I just downloaded the Mehanik patterns and your sample last night, so I haven't had a chance to look at those in the dark. Watched a bunch of things in both SDR and HDR, and I haven't observed any banding or posterization that would be immediately obvious (outside of specific test patterns). This is all with RGB full 8-bit, madVR 16-235 8-bit, TV in PC mode black level LOW.

I'm just happy I got something to mess with again, but I will go back to normal mode if I find something I don't like. On the plus side, I don't have to use smooth motion any longer, and that alone shaves off a bunch of ms. Enough, in fact, to go back to chroma NGU high, luma NGU high for all my 1080p@23fps upscales. With smooth motion, I was only able to use chroma NGU low and luma NGU med. Looks like I'm gonna hold on to my trusty 960 a little while longer :D

[chros]

:) I'm happy for you, yes SM costs a lot. But you could have used CRU before just like us :) That's why I'm telling that our cards are perfect for madvr: low power consumption.
Check those samples if you have time, I'll be curious what you will choose :)

[QBhd]

I'm still in the Full-RGB Full-Full camp but without the PC mode... Sure I loose 4:4:4 but it has the least banding of any option in HDR

QB

[VBB]

For me and my C7, YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit has the least amount of banding by a long shot (in normal mode and both SDR and HDR), but I'm trying to get away from using that combo.

[Magik Mark]

Do you have any info if Panasonic or Sonly Oleds are having problems processing RGB from GPU? Should we switch?

[VBB]

We don't really know, because nobody here has either one, and there aren't any owners over at AVS who care or would know what to look for, to be honest. I'm being a bit sarcastic, but it's pretty much like that.

[SamuriHL]

This is why I continue to wait for better screen tech. Eventually, some day, one of these damn technologies will get enough of it right that it'll be worth upgrading. I LOVE my C8, even with all its flaws. The PQ is still out of this world when properly calibrated. And I came from a Panny plasma (which is sitting in my bedroom LOL). You couldn't pay me to go to whatever quantum dot LED technology Samsung's got going on. I'm sure it's fine enough, but, I LIKE my OLED. Perhaps MicroLED will replace it some day or whatever but right now, OLED rocks. Sony is over priced and still has issues (although maybe different issues than LG...as VBB says, we don't really know). Panny is on my s*** list for dropping the US market, although I believe Nev has said those have issues, too. So, really, we're still waiting.

[huhn]

you have to differentiated between a panel and processing issue.

if a TV has banding with RGB but not with YCbCr input than the panel has zero to do with that all panels run RGB/WRGB. so if a panel has no banding with YCbCr it is 100% possible to do the same with RGB. it's just incompetence.

sonys RGB processing is pretty much as good as it gets that doesn't mean sony TV are even close to be perfect they have there own issue they pretty much can't do dolby vision they just pretend they can. so if you get a sony TV and want to use dolby vision content and you know about the "quality" they "handle" it than i simply have no word for you.

Panasonic has multiply issues in RGB processing is not truely "RGB" is not subsampled but it does some crazy things by using some usual patterns you can make it visible you will not notice this with real content but ohh boi...
panasonic is part of the "real cinema" group that may intentionally display a refreshrate wrong or been unable to do so correctly (PC modes makes 23p useless it was again confirmed by HDTVtest) there is no way to force a sony to to do a 3:2 pulldown.
panasonic also has a force processing issue where it has 100 levels of sharpness and up to this day i have no freaking clue what is neutral it'S between 0-50 somewhere there isn't a mode that just disables it like all the PC modes on all the other brands.

the points about to little processing power and such are just that... the majority of sony TV have 2 processor just to show you a simple way to fix it if you are unable to to something a board could do with 1/20 of the processing power of your current board.

[VBB]

Screw it all! :D

I'm back to my original settings from three years ago: normal HDMI mode, RGB full 8/12-bit, madVR 0-255, TV black level high. While PC mode works seemingly well with some very particular settings, several torture tests made me reconsider. As is absolutely right: anything RGB looks significantly better than 4:2:2. Chroma pattern will also show this, of course. Makes me wonder now how I used 4:2:2 for so long...

One thing I found when I reset madVR during my testing was that "colored noise" in the dithering options seems to add significant banding to 10-bit sources. Could this be a bug?

[chros]

That was quick :)

I'm back to my original settings from three years ago: normal HDMI mode, RGB full 8/12-bit, madVR 0-255, TV black level high.
So like I use it, except for PC mode :D

Makes me wonder now how I used 4:2:2 for so long...
:D

One thing I found when I reset madVR during my testing was that "colored noise" in the dithering options seems to add significant banding to 10-bit sources. Could this be a bug?
Is it with Ordered dithering? Which samples did you use for this test?

[QBhd]

Screw it all! :D

I'm back to my original settings from three years ago: normal HDMI mode, RGB full 8/12-bit, madVR 0-255, TV black level high. ...

It's funny, no one listened to me long ago and I even got a little push back when I said that using YCbCr seemed wrong on many levels. Welcome back to reality, your chain above is the one I have been using ever since I watched Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 3 "The Long Night" in HDR... this is truly a torture test for banding and sealed the deal for me with regards to the PC Mode or HDMI Mode debate. A Full RGB chain has never been a question for me :)

QB

[Magik Mark]

Screw it all! :D

I'm back to my original settings from three years ago: normal HDMI mode, RGB full 8/12-bit, madVR 0-255, TV black level high. While PC mode works seemingly well with some very particular settings, several torture tests made me reconsider. As is absolutely right: anything RGB looks significantly better than 4:2:2. Chroma pattern will also show this, of course. Makes me wonder now how I used 4:2:2 for so long...

One thing I found when I reset madVR during my testing was that "colored noise" in the dithering options seems to add significant banding to 10-bit sources. Could this be a bug?This was initial setting. My problem with this is introduces banding in Hdr. We're you able to find a work around?

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[Asmodian]

One thing I found when I reset madVR during my testing was that "colored noise" in the dithering options seems to add significant banding to 10-bit sources. Could this be a bug?

That is quite odd. I always disable colored noise because it looks weird to me. I expect it is more an artifact of the less than perfect 10 bit processing. Trying to figure out good settings for the W, R, G, and B subpixels when neighboring pixels have totally different hues is probably tricky.

That is something to remember, these TVs cannot do native RGB color like a normal display. Theoretically they could do pixel accurate rendering but the panels exhibit some artifacts that make me think you do have to consider the state of the surrounding pixels when setting voltages for subpixels (crosstalk is an issue). I don't know how they mix the white pixel in but the display will have to do more sophisticated / different image processing than one with proper RGB subpixels, with any input format.

[VBB]

@chros - I don't know how you use PC mode with that combo, especially after reading all your posts here and at AVS ;). PC mode is definitely useable with RGB full 8-bit, black level low, though. I always use ordered dithering, yeah. I could clearly see the banding added by "colored noise" in the S&M rotating ramps 8/10-bit pattern. The 10-bit side is usually perfectly smooth, and in this case it looked exactly like the 8-bit side. I was able to reproduce this several times. Weird.

@QBhd - I have always been a been a true believer in a full RGB chain, but for a while I was after the best possible banding scenario. And I don't know if it was the latest Nvidia driver that changed something, but after my five days of testing, I have to say that RGB never looked this good before. It used to show way more banding than YCbCr, or at least that's how I remember it :D

@Magic Mark - Are you talking about normal HDMI mode or PC mode? In normal mode you should not see any obvious banding with the RGB full chain. We're not talking about games here, are we?

@Asmodian - Same here. I have both dithering options disabled, and I would have never noticed this if it hadn't been for the reset.

[quietvoid]

Always had slight color banding in madVR over to the C8, mostly in shadows (hair line, jaw lines). Will definitely try disabling colored noise.

[Magik Mark]

@VBB Oops. I had my black level set to low. Now is ok.

May I ask do you still use 8bit or 10bit in madvr?

[VBB]

I switched back to 10-bit, because I ended up using RGB full 12-bit for the lower refresh rates. Don't forget to also change madVR back to 0-255, if you use black level HIGH.

[Magik Mark]

I switched back to 10-bit, because I ended up using RGB full 12-bit for the lower refresh rates. Don't forget to also change madVR back to 0-255, if you use black level HIGH.

I'm using 4k 60hz 8bit in GPU. Is 10bit in madvr still advisable?

[VBB]

If your entire chain is 8-bit and does not switch to something greater at the lower rates, then I would advise to set madVR to 8-bit.

[Magik Mark]

[emoji106]

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[Magik Mark]

Does anybody know if you will get HDMI 2.1 features using PCI 3 interface?

[SamuriHL]

They have nothing to do with each other. The answer is yes.

[Magik Mark]

Glad to know that. I thought I'll be needing a new MOBO with PCIE 4 support

Sent from my SM-G988B using Tapatalk

[Asmodian]

Apparently LG fixed their 120 Hz issues on the CX with firmware 03.11.25. Now there is no chroma subsampling in PC mode at 120 Hz. :)

I was worried it wasn't going to be an easy fix.

[scooterlord]

Hello from me again. Long time since I've last commented in this forum - although I've been silently lurking around :)

So I got my LG CX OLED this week, and I've been having some issues with the colors, etc. So, taking the suggestions in this thread under consideration I ended up with the following settings, but have some issues I want help with.

- On the TV I have set HDR - Standard (yep, not cinema), more or less all options close to defaults (demos are looking gorgeous!)
- Windows 10 w/ HDR enabled, RGB, 12-Bit, Full color, 23Hz

Most of the content I am going to see is h265, 10-bit, HDR. Using Potplayer with MadVR - the settings for my content that suit best require some processing, so I am using the following settings:
- Reduce banding artifacts med, med,
- Reduce random noise

My pc can handle it - i5 9600kf w/2060 RTX Super. Th problem is that this processing pushes GPU utilization to ~55% - essentially this means that it turns the fans on, which is annoying.
Switching to FFMpeg decoder, quality looks more or less the same, with ~5% GPU utilization and ~10% CPU utilization, which is ideal... EXCEPT the colors. Which make a huge difference! It's like HDR is not utilized at all or something. Tried all kinds of video renders but the result can only get worse that EVR.

Coming to questions:
- Is there a way to force MadVR do its processing on the CPU? Or was it not designed for such cases?
- What could be the issue for the huge difference in colors when using MadVR? Is it doing something special about the colors that I could most likely fake with a software decoder? Any suggestions or pointers on where to look?

Thanks!

[VBB]

@As - Have you installed the new firmware yet? If so, how does it look now as far as chroma, and does it look any better at 120Hz than at 60Hz or lower (in PC mode), especially when it comes to banding?

[Asmodian]

Sorry for the slow response. Yes, I have installed 03.11.25 on my LG CX.

For PC mode:
Chroma is perfect now, no chroma artifacts at all with ChromaRes.png. I am very happy with 4K120 Hz PC mode, at least I never expected it to be better than it is now. 120 Hz is better than 60 Hz in all ways.

With 10 bit out from madVR posterization is still noticeably worse, I tested 8 bit full range RGB. I think 120 Hz has less posterization in the midrange and perhaps near black as well but it seems a little softer rather than actually fewer bands, or maybe only slightly fewer. I wasn't expecting to see a difference. I especially noticed an improvement with very dim pixels becoming slightly less dim, at 60 Hz this can make a bright artifact line that moves with the gradient but disappears if the pattern is paused. At 120 Hz it doesn't seem to be an issue. That was the most annoying artifact for me with full range input and dithering to limited range YCbCr would mitigate it in a similar way. Switching back and forth is a bit annoying with the CAC-1085 due to needing to power cycle it so take all this as tentative. I did switch back and forth a lot but there was always some time between and I knew if it was 60 or 120 Hz, etc. :o

Oddly I don't seem to be able to send YCbCr 444 120 Hz to the CAC-1085 using driver 456.71 and a 2080 Ti.

[chros]

Asmodian, would you mind testing the cyan issue in hdr10 on your CX? If you have netflix I can upload a hdr10 sample that you can compare to DV and try to switch gamut to DCI-P3 to see if the issue is still present.

[Asmodian]

I do have Netflix and am happy to run some tests.

[chros]

Sorry for the late reply, Asmodian, I was buried ... :)
So, here is a 1 minute sample (https://mega.nz/file/LklVhKiR#594kNX9hDVpIgCBFExJKFTTnKX3nNBOQCPYgyOsBonE) of The Witcher S01E04 in HDR10 from around 53:20. So, what we want to test is the cyan error (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1890535#post1890535) that LG sometimes produce with HDR10 content using BT.2020 colorspace. @j82k came up with the idea that this might be solved by forcing the display into DCI-P3 (I even asked madshi to implement this in madvr half a year ago or so :) ).
Unfortunately only the CX series has this new option, so I can't try this out by myself.

- playback the sample in HDR10, take a look at the cyan-ish light through the window at the back of the small chamber where 2 of them are talking
- pause the playback, then look at the same scene on Netflix using DV: this is how it should look like (switch between the two source to notice the difference, if it's not that visible at first)
- if you also see difference then: switch the gamut mode of your CX to DCI-P3 with the HDR10 sample to see whether it solves this issue

Cheers

[razierklinge]

Sorry for the late reply, Asmodian, I was buried ... :)
So, here is a 1 minute sample (https://mega.nz/file/LklVhKiR#594kNX9hDVpIgCBFExJKFTTnKX3nNBOQCPYgyOsBonE) of The Witcher S01E04 in HDR10 from around 53:20. So, what we want to test is the cyan error (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1890535#post1890535) that LG sometimes produce with HDR10 content using BT.2020 colorspace. @j82k came up with the idea that this might be solved by forcing the display into DCI-P3 (I even asked madshi to implement this in madvr half a year ago or so :) ).
Unfortunately only the CX series has this new option, so I can't try this out by myself.

- playback the sample in HDR10, take a look at the cyan-ish light through the window at the back of the small chamber where 2 of them are talking
- pause the playback, then look at the same scene on Netflix using DV: this is how it should look like (switch between the two source to notice the difference, if it's not that visible at first)
- if you also see difference then: switch the gamut mode of your CX to DCI-P3 with the HDR10 sample to see whether it solves this issue

Cheers

I've been trying to track down the source of an issue I'm seeing in HDR content on my LG C8 and it might have to do with the cyan error you're referring to. When I first got my C8 I didn't have much HDR content to watch, aside from Netflix, so I didn't notice any issues. Now that I have a sizeable UHD Bluray collection, I see a lot of color problems.

In Iron Man 3 around 39:33 when he's flying through the water there are reddish and cyanish lines that are outlining him: https://i.imgur.com/WqEqtme.jpg

If I go into the SM WB menu they go away: https://i.imgur.com/D0OFyUI.jpg

Same scene on Disney+ with Dolby Vision: https://i.imgur.com/YfDui67.jpg

My phone overexposed the Disney+ picture a bit, but the weird colors were definitely not there.

So then I found Mehanik's HDR10 patterns and when I looked at the linearization patterns the issue was clearly visible.

This first image is just grayscale, but you can see a strange darker band around the edge: https://i.imgur.com/qml5srV.jpg

Now on the blue linearization pattern you can see the reddish/cyan colors where that darker band is on the grayscale pattern: https://i.imgur.com/hKIfrNQ.jpg

I've been pulling my hair out trying to figure out how to fix this problem, but at this point I feel like it's just an issue with the TV itself. I've factory reset it to make sure none of my 3DLUT's were causing a problem. I've looked at these scenes with madVR as well as through the USB on the TV itself, and the problem is always there. Plus, I trust that the HDR10 patterns are good quality and don't have issues. The last thing I was thinking about doing was buying some Dolby Vision test patterns from https://www.diversifiedvideosolutions.com/dolby_vision.html, just so I can look at the linearization pattern and verify it looks okay and confirm I'm not crazy. But paying $35 just to know that my TV has a problem I can't fix is a bit annoying.

If you happen to have the Iron Man 3 UHD Bluray, could you check that scene on your TV? I've also noticed similar issues in Guardians of the Galaxy at 3:33 around the bright light coming down from the space ship.

[quietvoid]

That looks somewhat like banding I've noticed when using madVR as well.
Did you try using a built in app or external device (not HTPC) with the same file?

[razierklinge]

That looks somewhat like banding I've noticed when using madVR as well.
Did you try using a built in app or external device (not HTPC) with the same file?

Yup, all of this was done using the built in app on the C8 and the issues were still there. I was really hoping it was a file or madvr issue, but since the built in app also shows the problem I feel like it has to be the tv itself.

[chros]

When I first got my C8 I didn't have much HDR content to watch, aside from Netflix
Netflix has DV and there's no issue with DV on LG. HDR10 uses LG's own implementation, probably that's the cause.

If I go into the SM WB menu they go away: https://i.imgur.com/D0OFyUI.jpg
That's an interesting finding. There's a slight difference here, but not whole lot.

So then I found Mehanik's HDR10 patterns and when I looked at the linearization patterns the issue was clearly visible.
This first image is just grayscale, but you can see a strange darker band around the edge: https://i.imgur.com/qml5srV.jpg
Now on the blue linearization pattern you can see the reddish/cyan colors where that darker band is on the grayscale pattern: https://i.imgur.com/hKIfrNQ.jpg
These are really good patterns in "04. Colors\03. Linearization": cyan and blue are really problematic, the other colors are not that bad even with Full RGB 12bit output.

since the built in app also shows the problem I feel like it has to be the tv itself.
Yes, that's LG's BT.2020 gamut mapping, we bet. Interestingly it doesn't happen all the time, it's like when colors are near gamut limit or out of gamut.

If you happen to have the Iron Man 3 UHD Bluray, could you check that scene on your TV?
Unfortunately I don't have it, but if you upload a sample (cut out by mkvtoolnix) of it we can check it.
But the better would be if you can find a title with DV (you can cut out a sample of the whole UHDBD with CloneBD) because at that time we can clearly compare the HDR10 vs DV. (I tried it with IT Chapter 2 sample (https://mega.nz/folder/r9N0VK5R#WnnyYsGqwa7M-v1jckw6iQ/file/Ol0USCYI), but that's not the best example :) )
Also you can check the sample I uploaded previously if you also have Netflix.

[razierklinge]

Netflix has DV and there's no issue with DV on LG. HDR10 uses LG's own implementation, probably that's the cause.


That's an interesting finding. There's a slight difference here, but not whole lot.


These are really good patterns in "04. Colors\03. Linearization": cyan and blue are really problematic, the other colors are not that bad even with Full RGB 12bit output.


Yes, that's LG's BT.2020 gamut mapping, we bet. Interestingly it doesn't happen all the time, it's like when colors are near gamut limit or out of gamut.


Unfortunately I don't have it, but if you upload a sample (cut out by mkvtoolnix) of it we can check it.
But the better would be if you can find a title with DV (you can cut out a sample of the whole UHDBD with CloneBD) because at that time we can clearly compare the HDR10 vs DV. (I tried it with IT Chapter 2 sample (https://mega.nz/folder/r9N0VK5R#WnnyYsGqwa7M-v1jckw6iQ/file/Ol0USCYI), but that's not the best example :) )
Also you can check the sample I uploaded previously if you also have Netflix.

I cut out the section in Iron Man 3 using mkvtoolnix: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xvtw9da8zpvc82/IronMan3_UHD_red_cyan_outline_39m_30s.mkv?dl=0

The cyan and blue linearization patterns are definitely the worst on my TV, but the problem is noticeable on all colors.

And you're right, it doesn't seem to happen all the time, and some movies are just worse than others. When I start watching a movie I can usually tell immediately whether there are issues once I see how the skintones look. I'll check out the scene you posted from The Witcher later today.

I'll also see if I can find a DV title that can be compared with.

[Ghitulescu]

f one needs to "reset" the TV in order to get good colours, then the firmware is defective somehow.

Just as a side note - to get the perfect colours one does not need to reset (on good TVs this does nothing to colours, unless specifically told so) but one needs calibration - depending on TV this calibration can be lost by resseting it to defaults (some TVs reset only the user settings - saturation, luminosity etc. while others reset also the calibration data).

Read the manual, or ask the TV calibration service for details.

PS: if it has magic eye or any other ambient optimisation feature - turn them off.

[quietvoid]

If anyone's interested I took some HDR tonemapped pics of the Spears & Munsil UHD Benchmark, because Dolby Vision is getting popular and I wanted to compare with the latest madVR beta.
Taken with Pixel 4a, locked exposure to retain highlights, so please disregard crushed blacks as well as different crops (no tripod..).

https://mega.nz/file/IY8XDaZb#s-oxRKnTdRwAqB-5ghfadZcir2JII_nil1AkMpdEAM4

One thing I noticed is that Dolby Vision has brighter highlights in some scenes, but desaturates more in others.

[kostik]

I tested the Iron Man scene you put here on my 65CX and I don't see reddish and cyanish lines that are outlining him as shown in the picture. I did SM WB calibration and 2pt HDR calibration only (as suggested on AVSForum)

[chros]

I do see the issues present on my B8. But it's not the best example either, content is moving really fast. We need to find a better scene, preferably in DV.
Would you mind testing the above sample (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1925528#post1925528) on your CX? I guess Asmodan didn't have time so far.

[chros]

If anyone's interested I took some HDR tonemapped pics of the Spears & Munsil UHD Benchmark, because Dolby Vision is getting popular and I wanted to compare with the latest madVR beta.
...
One thing I noticed is that Dolby Vision has brighter highlights in some scenes, but desaturates more in others.
Interesting comparison, thanks. madvr images are darker, probably due to the 100 setting of dynamic target. If you lower it to 55, the result will be brighter.
That SM sample is really unique with its 10000 (!) metadata for both maxCLL and mastering display peak (I haven't seen real content like this yet).

And comparing HDR is really hard (even impossible?) due to different algos do different things with almost every different scenes :) For example I noticed (by switching over passthrough and madvr DTM) that with my setting (in my signature) most of the time madvr DTM results in slightly brighter image, but sometimes it's darker than the passthrough counterpart :)

And about DV: I started (again) experimenting with the Oppo's SDR2DV feature (in non-PC mode) vs madvr + gamma 2.4 3dlut + pc mode.
So far I only tested couple of scenes with 4k SDR content, but the result is shocking (I haven't seen anything outstanding yet): DV converted SDR images look way better than "normal" SDR even in PC mode! The cause probably is the increased brightness range that results in higher contrast.

I also tried to compare the B8 built-in HDR Effect preset (only available in non-PC mode) with them: it has 3 sub-presets (Light/Med/High), but even with Light setting the image gets way more brighter than the converted DV version.
The interesting part about it is that (obviously) it uses the madvr 3dlut. So, I quickly generated a darker (gamma 2.6) version of 3dlut. Now the image is getting closer to the DV-converted version (even bright objects (lights, etc) got colder as they should), but the overall image is still way warmer.

[quietvoid]

Interesting comparison, thanks. madvr images are darker, probably due to the 100 setting of dynamic target. If you lower it to 55, the result will be brighter.
I do really like the more contrast-y darker look, but I might lower it a bit for it to look more "natural".
Either way it really only affects demo-like situations with very high brightness. :)

[kostik]

I do see the issues present on my B8. But it's not the best example either, content is moving really fast. We need to find a better scene, preferably in DV.
Would you mind testing the above sample (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1925528#post1925528) on your CX? I guess Asmodan didn't have time so far.

Looks perfectly fine on my CX. I play it via LG's app streaming from my pc. Smooth cyan with 0 banding, nothing near the pics from lion king .

[razierklinge]

I tested the Iron Man scene you put here on my 65CX and I don't see reddish and cyanish lines that are outlining him as shown in the picture. I did SM WB calibration and 2pt HDR calibration only (as suggested on AVSForum)

Thanks so much for testing it. It's really nice to hear that it's possible for that scene to look fine. But at the same time...now I feel like I need to get a new TV lol. Really wish I was able to fix this problem on my C8. Tried doing 2pt calibration in HDR also and it didn't help at all.

I do see the issues present on my B8. But it's not the best example either, content is moving really fast. We need to find a better scene, preferably in DV.
Would you mind testing the above sample (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1925528#post1925528) on your CX? I guess Asmodan didn't have time so far.

Are the issues on your B8 as intense as what I'm getting on my C8? It is a really fast scene, but so far it's the most intense error I've seen on my TV. I also checked out The Witcher scene and I swapped back and forth between the HDR clip and DV on Netflix and the light from the window in HDR was definitely more cyan than DV.

[kostik]

Thanks so much for testing it. It's really nice to hear that it's possible for that scene to look fine. But at the same time...now I feel like I need to get a new TV lol. Really wish I was able to fix this problem on my C8. Tried doing 2pt calibration in HDR also and it didn't help at all.



Are the issues on your B8 as intense as what I'm getting on my C8? It is a really fast scene, but so far it's the most intense error I've seen on my TV. I also checked out The Witcher scene and I swapped back and forth between the HDR clip and DV on Netflix and the light from the window in HDR was definitely more cyan than DV.

I also have a C8 . I will check later and see because I really don't remember we had this issue. I used C8 for 2 years. Chrominance overshoot and etc... yes... but Cyan issue like in the pics, I don't remember having those.




If I were you, I would wait for the next LG oled. I like my CX, better then C8 for sure but the peak luminance is disappointing and wish LG had made it better this year. C8 to C9 is a good jump . C9 to CX? maybe even a step backwards LOL


EDIT: ok, I tested the video sample we have here from Iron Man and yes, I see the red line clearly and can say for sure now that this issue is not present on my CX. However, the scene from the other movie where they talk in the chamber and cyanic light comes from behind from the window- I didn't see the issue with cyan. It is much smoother and bandingless on CX but on C8 this scene is not that bad either/

[chros]

Thanks, but did you switch back and forth between the hdr10 and DV version (on Netflix).

[kostik]

Thanks, but did you switch back and forth between the hdr10 and DV version (on Netflix).

Did a check on my CX right now, looks good and exactly the same .
Will check tomorrow on the C8. I think seeing now the scene, the cyan looks way smoother and not as bright and as saturated as I saw on the C8

Edit: just thought about it.. I forgot to turn off Dynamic Tonemap on the C8. I don't use it on my 65CX . All your tests on Cyan issues are done with Dynamic Tonemapping turned on or off?

[chros]

DTM is Off here. But I'll try with it enabled as well.

[chros]

I have 2 questions about creating BT.709 SDR 3dlut, if you can help me out with them:

B8 is set up: ifs dark, Black Level High, gamma 2.4, warm2, Wide gamut (-> 97% DCI-P3)
Whole chain is set up: Full RGB 12bit

1. in madvr the infamous Calibration > "this display is already calibrated": DCI-P3, power gamma 2.4
- is this setting is correct???

I noticed if I modify this option the output also will be changed eve when 3dlut is used.
This is really confusing: does this setting has any effect during profiling with DisplayCal? If no, then why does it have during playback when the generated 3dlut is used???

@Manni, if you can shed a light on this ... :)

2. about this "issue" (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/madvr-argyllcms.1471169/post-60182209)
And I noticed that it works the same way when I don't do calibration either (I haven't noticed this before, e.g. a year ago).
- is it because the black level is 0?

Thanks

[VBB]

I wonder what's going on with Florian. He posts very rarely on his own forum, and he hasn't updated DisplayCAL in almost a year.

[chros]

Maybe his software is perfect? :)

[Magik Mark]

Guys, any comment on the latest Nvidia driver v457.09? Does it still switches from hdr to sdr when gui of the player is activated?

[VBB]

I installed it last night, but didn't have time to test HDR. Will do so a bit later. I think Nvidia considers this more of a feature than a bug ;)

[SamuriHL]

I haven't had time to install it yet but tonight is movie night (non-HDR since I can't seem to find a copy of The Crow in 4K anywhere sigh) but I will at least update the drivers before watching that and give it a quick test with HDR. (And if I get a minute I'll drive it through the fury as well and check that metadata isn't broken. Sad that this is something we need to do on every release now)

[SamuriHL]

All is well with the latest driver in regards to HDR as far as I can see. metadata is good and no change to overlay dropping to SDR as seen before.

[VBB]

Thanks for testing!

[Magik Mark]

Thanks for testing!

[mark0077]

Guys,feel free to delete if this is deemed as a duplicate post as I posted it in the madVR thread, but it seems from what I can see to be either Nvidia or LG related, so posting the same details below as I posted in the madVR thread. All LG inputs welcome.

I have had awful trouble getting madVR to play nicely with my system when it comes to HDR playback. I have the following setup. If anyone could help it would be greatly appreciated.

GPU: GTX 980 with 456.71 drivers
Display: LG C9 65"
madVR: latest beta with the hdr tone mapping section
Player: Latest beta mpc-be
Windows HDR Setting: Off
Nvidia Display Mode: 3840 x 2160 x 23Hz (any hz reproduces the issues). YCbCr444 Limited, 8bpc

madVR / LAV Filters play SDR flawlessly as they always have. With the LG C9 it is well documented that at least in SDR mode, it shows a lot less banding in YCbCr444 8 bpc mode which I have found to be very true, which is what I intend to use for all content for now. The following issues don't happen in RGB Full range mode, only YCbCr444 Limited mode.

So the problems start when playing HDR content with madVR, the following two issues happen.

Note: I have bought numerous brands of HDMI cable including two brands of HDMI 2.1 cables, even though I know the GTX 980 cannot use them to their full extent. So to me on my fourth cable from HDMI 2.0 to 2.1 across numerous brands, I think I can say I have ruled that out.

1) madVR hdr set to "passthrough HDR to display" with "send HDR metadata to the display".
When madVR starts, and the HDR icon appears at the top right of the LG display, the screen goes almost completely green (I know it sounds like a cable, but believe me, it must be something else). When I return out of HDR mode (close the player) it returns to normal, the desktop is no longer green.

When I switch my display to HDR mode from anything else, the a) HDRSwitch tool, from b) Windows HDR settings or c) from games, this green screen / tint doesn't appear. Only when triggered via madVR does it happen.

Can it be sending something else in the "send HDR metadata to the display" that for some reason conflicts with YCbCr 444 and is not meant for that mode?

As mentioned, this doesn't occur in RGB Full range mode, the display never goes any strange colors in that mode. It can do 60hz RGB 8-bit without issues, albeit with the extra banding everyone knows about with these screens.

2) madVR hdr set to "tone map HDR using pixel shaders".
When madVR starts, it obviously leaves the screen in SDR mode, which is as expected. The image shown now looks good (not green) when in windowed mode. When I double click the screen and go fullscreen (not full screen exclusive, just windowed fullscreen), the image goes almost completely black. I can just about see the brightest content on screen. To note here, when this happens, the Ctrl-J content/output shows exactly the same details before/after.

Something as basic as right clicking the display, when in fullscreen, again triggers the image to show the proper black levels, and the Ctrl-J output still remains the same, even the "D3D11 fullscreen windowed (8-bit)" string. When turning off the right click menu, the image again returns to almost completely black, although I can see the shapes moving around.

When I switch off "use Direct3D 11 for presentation" in the general settings, this behaviour stops. D3D9 doesn't seem to show this second issue. Do you think this means its an NVidia issue/madVR issue or something configured wrong on my side thats affecting D3D11.

Again this second issue doesn't happen with RGB Full range mode, even in Direct D3D11.

[VBB]

Mark, I replied to you yesterday in the main thread. Did you see it?

[mark0077]

Thanks VBB, yes using 16-235 isn't really an option for me as I use the PC for both HTPC and also "normal" PC use. I actually think I found something that might help RGB Full 8-bit 0-255 mode band less. Maybe you guys are already aware of it. Its to enable the correct nvidia dithering setting here.

https://hub.displaycal.net/forums/topic/how-to-enable-dithering-on-nvidia-geforce-with-windows-os/

When I import the following into the correct area of my registry (its the 8-bit temporal dithering), and restart the nvidia drivers using CRU, the banding is good now to my eyes, in RGB mode. Do you guys mind trying this? Does this mean we no longer have to recommend using YCBCR 444?

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\nvlddmkm\State\DisplayDatabase\GSMC0A016843009_01_07E3_8E]
"DitherRegistryKey"=hex:db,01,00,00,10,00,00,00,01,01,01,04,f3,00,00,00

[huhn]

"this" (different tool) has been tested and it's not effecting madVR positively it can only affect it negatively because madVR has it's own dithering and dithering is made to lower bit deep.

the desktops is a bit different but is rendered in 8 bit and dithering 8 bit to 8 bit is doing nothing.

[mark0077]

Yeah I really don't know what this is doing. I thought the same, with the desktop at 8-bit, what would 8-bit temporal dithering be doing. But it does at least do something on the desktop. I have a black to white gradient set as my desktop wallpaper to test this. When the registry key is not there you can see the noticeable banding patterns. When I tried a few settings, I took the notes below, all looking bad except for the 8 bit temporal one.

Maybe we need to come up with a way to test this with madVR to see does it negatively impact it. I'll try to think of a good way to test this.

No registry key present - bad
Key present, but set to "disabled" - bad
Key present, and set to "default" - bad
Key present, and set to "8 bit temporal" - good, few very slight bands
Key present, and set to "10 bit temporal" - not bad but more bands than 8 bit temporal

[huhn]

there are ways to test this with madVR and there is a "much" better tool too.

take this image: http://www.bealecorner.org/red/test-patterns/Gradient-16bit.png and load it in madVR

put the desktop to 8 bit make sure madVR is outputting 10 bit dithering option in madVR isn't that important for this test beware newer test build will not output 10 bit with nvidia when the desktop is 8 bit.

now you look at the green part of this image with temporal dithering in my test it "flickers"(it's temporal it'S made to "flicker"..).

[mark0077]

OK cool. I'm testing that png in madVR at the moment, but with the latest madVR beta, so I can't see any green flickering with nvidia set to temporal 8-bit. Even with the display settings in madVR set to "10 bit or higher". Is this what you see, flickering? Maybe its because as you say, madVR will output 8-bit if it sees the display is currently set to 8. I found some old doom9 threads where people link to a tool to set the dithering settings (very handy) and those discussions seem to be saying the nvidia dithering doesn't affect madVR output, only the desktop. Did you find that in your tests? I can't yet see a downside to using nvidias dithering although I don't know what its really doing to be honest. I wish we had an nvidia contact who could explain why it subjectively at least, makes the desktop look better when its set to dither.

[VBB]

I did a lot of testing with that tool you mentioned (created by a Dutch guy over at AVS). Used to be command line only, but it has evolved since: https://github.com/Maassoft/ColorControl

Anyway, by default, Nvidia drivers dither always except when set to RGB full. That's why you had to enable it and found that it makes a bit of a difference.

[mark0077]

Ah ok that makes sense, and explains why YCbCr 444 always subjectively looked smoother on gradients. Windows must internally have a 10 or 12 bit pipeline that needs dithering to output at the end in 8 bit. But that's pure speculation on my part. I have not yet seen a downside to enabling the dithering anyways in RGB mode.

[oldpainlesskodi]

Just setting my new LG OLED55BX6LB - oh my!.....blown away.

[flaviowolff]

Hey, guys, a quick noobie question: whats the benefit of settings madvr to change the output resolution to 4k23p, compared to straight 4k60hz, considering that the TV has true cinema on?
I'm not using smooth motion, because 50% of my viewing is Netflix and I don't want different motion quality between madvr and Netflix (this would drive me nuts).
Thanks!

[QBhd]

watching 4k23p content at 4k60Hz will be a juddery mess

QB

[flaviowolff]

watching 4k23p content at 4k60Hz will be a juddery mess

QB

isnt true cinema supposed to fix that?

[VBB]

There is Real Cinema and TruMotion. Two different things. The former does pull-down, the latter does interpolation. Smooth motion is neither. If you want to use the TV at 60Hz only, then you should enable SM and disable switching in madVR.

[flaviowolff]

There is Real Cinema and TruMotion. Two different things. The former does pull-down, the latter does interpolation. Smooth motion is neither. If you want to use the TV at 60Hz only, then you should enable SM and disable switching in madVR.

Thanks.
The thing is, I watch lots of contents that dont benefit from madvr (mainly netflix), thus i'm looking for a universal solution. I could simply set my resolution to 2160@23p, but how exactly is that better than 60hz with True Cinema enabled? The fluidity of 60hz with the mouse cursor and windows would be much appreciated, as this is a family room setup.

[VBB]

Do you watch Netflix on your PC? If not, I don't see why it matters. If yes, just set your desktop to 60Hz , and then either enable Real Cinema and don't use smooth motion, or disable Real Cinema and use smooth motion. You're still confusing me by using "True Cinema" ;). If you mean TruMotion, then RC and SM don't matter, because TruMotion takes over everything. If you like interpolation, then make sure NOT to use smooth motion.

[flaviowolff]

Do you watch Netflix on your PC? If not, I don't see why it matters. If yes, just set your desktop to 60Hz , and then either enable Real Cinema and don't use smooth motion, or disable Real Cinema and use smooth motion. You're still confusing me by using "True Cinema" ;). If you mean TruMotion, then RC and SM don't matter, because TruMotion takes over everything. If you like interpolation, then make sure NOT to use smooth motion.

Yes, Real Cinema! Sorry for that. :p

Yes, I watch Netflix on my PC. 60hz + Real Cinema seems right, then.
I don't use True Motion.
Is there any advantage of using 23hz output without real cinema over 60hz + real cinema?
Thanks once again

[VBB]

You want RC on in either case. It will do different pull-downs, depending on the refresh rate. The only time you want RC off is when you use smooth motion (or when the video delay drives you nuts LOL).

[flaviowolff]

You want RC on in either case. It will do different pull-downs, depending on the refresh rate. The only time you want RC off is when you use smooth motion (or when the video delay drives you nuts LOL).

I see.. good to know!
So, whats the actual difference in quality between 23hz vs 60hz output, rc on both, when playing back 23p files? I thought that the main difference was judder from the 2:3 pulldown, but RC is supposed to fix that. Any advantages on using 23p output? :o

[chros]

Just setting my new LG OLED55BX6LB - oh my!.....blown away.
:) Welcome to the club! Isn't 55" small though? Just asking if you are still in the return window...
You can go through this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) just to see what you can expect from an LG Oled. If you will have any question after that then just shoot! :)

[VBB]

@flaviowolff - That is the main difference. If you don't notice any judder, then you're good. No need to overthink it.

[flaviowolff]

@flaviowolff - That is the main difference. If you don't notice any judder, then you're good. No need to overthink it.

I'll try not to.. but it's hard after reading @QBhd 's post :(

[VBB]

I'm sure he meant without RC. Why don't you compare for yourself? :)

[QBhd]

I am pretty sure Real Cinema does not do what you think it does when connected to a PC. Real Cinema is to enable 5:5 pulldown when a 24p source (e.g. Blu-ray player) is connected. A 60Hz refresh rate will not engage the 5:5... Instead you will have massive judder as 23p frames are pumped through a 60Hz pipe. Real Cinema will then apply a 2:2 which does nothing at that point, since you have already destroyed the motion by forcing 23p into 60Hz.

QB

[VBB]

Oh, I understand, but thank you for the explanation. What you call massive depends on whose eyes are watching. Some people are hyper-sensitive to judder, others don't notice it, perhaps because they're used to it. My recommendation to Flavio stands: Try it for himself. If he prefers to watch everything at 60Hz, then he has the option to use smooth motion. That's what many of us do. What little Netflix I watch, I would never do so on the PC. The LG's built-in app is excellent.

[QBhd]

Agreed, most people are used to it. Broadcast TV still has to use 3:2. Browsers still have to use it. Even old DVDs have to use it. Motion is just something that people take for granted until it's done properly. Then you can never go back... I recently watched a movie broadcast OTA... It was horrible!!

QB

[VBB]

Yup, and another major factor, IMO, is viewing distance. A lot of motion flaws are simply not as obvious from, let's say, 12 feet compared to 6 feet. I sit 4.5 feet from my 65" :D

[QBhd]

I'm at least 10 feet away from my 55"... I still notice bad motion immediately

QB

[SamuriHL]

Yup, bad motion is horrifying and painful to watch.

[oldpainlesskodi]

:) Welcome to the club! Isn't 55" small though? Just asking if you are still in the return window...
You can go through this post (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836) just to see what you can expect from an LG Oled. If you will have any question after that then just shoot! :)

Thanks 55 is fine for my needs at the moment.

Will take a look.

[flaviowolff]

Real Cinema is to enable 5:5 pulldown when a 24p source (e.g. Blu-ray player) is connected.
QB

So is it advisable to set madvr to output 2160p24 instead of 2160p23?

[huhn]

the majority of source are 23p but 24p is better for 24p sources.

[flaviowolff]

I mean, does real cinema still apply 5:5 pulldown when the display is set at 23p? Or only at 24p?

[huhn]

no other reports are known why shouldn't it?

[VBB]

Flavio, have you tried any of this yourself by now? I would start by setting the desktop to 60Hz. In madVR, enable refresh rate switching, and allow it to switch to 2160p23, 2160p24, 2160p50, 2160p59, 2160p60. Leave Real Cinema on. Play a few things and see if you like it.

The other option is to set your desktop to 60Hz, but disable refresh rate switching and enable smooth motion. Turn off Real Cinema. For some of us here this is the preferred way, because smooth motion will take care of any timing issues, and it will also make pans and action a little less stuttery by slightly blurring the motion.

[VBB]

BTW, have you guys played any of the now pretty common 24fps content on your OLEDs? It's a jerky mess, but you can't tell by looking at OSD. Doesn't matter if it's played back at 24Hz or 60Hz with SM, so I'm thinking it's the content itself.

[Asmodian]

I have seen a lot of stuff with bad motion baked into the video but what do you mean by the now pretty common 24 fps content?

I did have one thing at 24 fps somewhat recently but I don't remember it being particularly bad. (Using smooth motion)

[chros]

BTW, have you guys played any of the now pretty common 24fps content on your OLEDs? It's a jerky mess, but you can't tell by looking at OSD. Doesn't matter if it's played back at 24Hz or 60Hz with SM, so I'm thinking it's the content itself.
No I didn't, examples? timestamp/source/etc :)

[SamuriHL]

Netflix has some stuff that's using 24.000 and yes, it can be a hot mess. I'd almost rather play it back at 23.976 with that known issue.

[VBB]

I am referring to the Netflix and Amazon stuff, yes. They've been using 24.000 pretty much exclusively with their own shows and others as well. They all have a hitch every few seconds. Highly annoying, but then again, who am I to complain...

DISCLAIMER: I pay for both services, and simply prefer to watch via madVR.

[Asmodian]

I watch very little from either service so I probably never noticed.

[mark0077]

VBB, are you setting the TV to PC Mode, in which case I would imagine your pretty much sure when you send 24p to it, its going to play it back without trying to do anything "fancy", where as in non PC mode it might do so. I found this at least with my old Samsung Series 9. In non PC mode, in different modes it would randomly start triggering various pulldown mechanisms, or deinterlacing. PC Mode was the only way I could make it play exactly what I sent it, untouched.

[VBB]

I've been using PC mode for a while now, yeah. Doesn't make a difference, though, which is why I'm thinking it's the content. I even tried the madVR D3D hack for 24 and 60, but that also didn't seem to have any effect. Everything else is smooth as butter. To give you an idea, I'm talking about currently airing shows like Star Trek Discovery, Fear the Walking Dead, The Walking Dead World Beyond, etc. I also noticed it back when Picard was on. Once these shows are released on disc, they get the proper 23.976 treatment. Why the stream providers chose to go with 24 is beyond me, especially when devices like ATV have such major issues with it.

[QBhd]

24p is smooth as butter with my 5700 XT on my C8. 25p as well.

I have seen in the past where the refresh rate switches but it does not actually switch to a 24Hz (some other 23Hz refresh that is hidden or something)... usually has to do with CRU or a custom resolution. I long ago ditched chasing the perfect refresh rate, instead I use the built-in WASAPI Audio Renderer of PotPlayer.

QB

[VBB]

Have you watched any of the shows I mentioned? I will try some 24fps disc content later tonight and report back.

UPDATE: Just tested a couple of discs: smooth as can be. It's the way Netflix authors some of their stuff, unfortunately.

[chros]

How do you watch Netflix show.s with madvr??? :) Which version of them? There are so many variables...

[VBB]

I don't think we want to get into this topic here :)

[chros]

Why not? :)
But what I meant: is it 1080 sdr / 2160p sdr / 2160p hdr?
I don't know much about the 2017 models but due to the cyan bug in hdr on 2018 models hdr is crap :)
So if I can, I watch everything in 2160p DV via these services (except for amazon), DV is flawless (obviously no pc mode this time):
- netflix on B8
- appletv and disney via firestick4k (firestick can be manually forced to 2160p@24p)

Same applies to UHDBDs as well via Oppo: if a BD is available in DV then I watch it like that.
And on top of that, as I mentioned a month ago, I started to watch regular 1080p BDs as well via Oppo with the DV conversion! :D Most of the time it's gorgeous, only sometimes look the dark scenes elevated. Has onyone tried this??? :)

[VBB]

I do all my streaming with the built-in apps. No issues here with the C7, HDR or DV. The 7-series, while not without its own flaws, doesn't seem to have the bugs that continue to plague the newer models, i.e. elevated blacks, cyan, near black banding, etc. My panel is far from perfect, but I have seen no reason to replace the TV with something newer.

The Netflix/Amazon stuff I watch via madVR is all 1080p SDR, because there are no other versions. It's all high quality, but both services moved to 24.000 a while ago, and there are issues with the encodes. I misspoke last night when I said it was the Netflix stuff that's hitching. It's actually the Amazon stuff.

I watch very little HDR/DV, but when I do, both formats are fantastic on the C7. A lot depends on the content, of course.

How come you don't watch Disney via built-in app? I have no issues with it.

[chros]

It's not avaliable on the firmware version I'm using (they introduced black crush later and never fixed it).
Can you name a 24p content from Amazon that has this issue?

[quietvoid]

- appletv and disney via firestick4k (firestick can be manually forced to 2160p@24p)

Curious about Apple TV+, it's artifacting with DV on my firestick but not the internal app.
Also not sure where you're manually forcing the refresh rate, mine only has 60/50 Hz options to set manually.
Though Kodi can let me select 23/24p.

[oldpainlesskodi]

Ok, Mr Nit picker here. I have to say, OLED is certainly blowing me a away.

Just one question - with content like 2.40:1 aspect ratio, shouldn't the black bars be absolute black? On certain films, it's like it thinks there is something to render in the blacks bars, so there is very very faint backlight/pixel lighting (like if 100 is perfect black, it looks like 98/99, so really hard to pick out, but it's there).

Update - so I tried the same content, but used the built in media player, and the borders are perfect black, not 98/99, but 100, so......hmmm

[VBB]

You need to tell us which source and at what brightness level. There can definitely be elevated blacks, but it's not common in bars outside of streaming sources. And even then it depends on the device, the year of the OLED, etc. I find that with my C7, I also need to set different brightness levels for YCbCr vs. RGB (48 vs. 51).

[oldpainlesskodi]

Local files using dsplayer. Setting exactly the same for the HDR hdmi input compared to using the TV's internal player. Like I said, it's subtle, but with the tv player, borders are 100 black, but when using madvr the borders have some light in them.

Will look again at brightness levels etc, but pretty sure they are the same for hdmi input vs the internal player.

Update - doubled checked all settings, and disabled virtually every option in the panel (to remove any potential issues). Have tried all the combos of both RBG and YCBCr, and to me, it looks like madvr is rendering the boarders (have tried the black bar detection using an order version of madvr using copyback, and same results, so I'm stumped as to what is going on behind the scenes.

It's very noticable with OLED, as with LCD there is pretty always faint backlighting/bleed.

UPDATE- just tried the latest nightly build of kodi (with the hdr passthrough fix etc) and no problems with the black bars, so something seems to be going on with madvr. Must be something my end, so will continue to dig....

FIXED - I "think" i found the culprit. I updated to one of the bettergui dsplayer builds, which contained some changes to the video/gui code.
I seem to remember, so I went back to the last official dsplayer build, and problem fixed.

Just feeding back incase anyone else has a similar issue.

[QBhd]

Sounds like somewhere along the chain you have set a brightness that is clearly too high... there are brightness settings in the driver, madVR, player, and the TV.

QB

[oldpainlesskodi]

Totally EDITED:

I come back cap in hand - you were correct. I forgot to check/run OLED-full-black-screen-check (Mehanik HDR10 test patterns), so thanks for the heads up - new to this whole OLED thing lol.

[SamuriHL]

They can be a little touchy to dial in correctly. That's why a lot of us calibrate them with a meter. Otherwise there's a lot of guess work or at the very least time consumed with test patterns and tweaking.

[flaviowolff]

It's not avaliable on the firmware version I'm using (they introduced black crush later and never fixed it).
Can you name a 24p content from Amazon that has this issue?

Hi, are you still using the B8?
My set is on the latest firmware (05.20.01, I guess). I don't have black crush with SDR or hDR10 (i upgraded from 04.10.36 directly to 05.10.50, thus avoiding the plagued 04.10.65, and I think that saved me from the bug), but yesterday I ran the Black PULGE DV pattern and could only clearly see one bar.. the "second" bar appeared very faintly at brightness 52, but at 53 pure blacks glowed. Couldn't see any rectangular boxes at the left..

Apparently I have black crush only with DV..

[VBB]

Setting brightness doesn't require a meter, IMO. There is only one setting where black is 100% black. That setting can depend on several things, but there is no in-between. So, in order to set brightness, make the room as dark as possible, let your eyes adjust, and use a 100% black pattern. Adjust brightness to where there is no glow, and when you think you got it, put your nose as close to the screen as possible and see if you notice any dithering, like the old plasmas used to do. It's barely noticeable, but it's there. If you see it, adjust brightness down another notch.

Black crush can of course be a problem, but setting brightness higher than it should be is only a band aid. Better to adjust the lower IRE's, as described in this thread: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lg-oleds-how-to-enhance-near-black-detail.2579537/

My favorite SDR pluge pattern: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/lg-oleds-how-to-enhance-near-black-detail.2579537/page-5#post-46798617

Note: When I say 100% black, I mean 0%. Hope that makes sense ;)

[oldpainlesskodi]

Yep, OLED-full-black-screen-check (Mehanik HDR10 test patterns) is a pretty good way to do it with an OLED for HDR playback.

[SamuriHL]

No I get that but there's so much more than JUST black to set it just makes having a meter worth it.

[oldpainlesskodi]

Appreciate this thread, coming from an LCD to an OLED, and, indeed, there are a lot lessons to be remembered from my plasma owning days (way back in time). Lucky for us, the tech has moved on and matured.

[VBB]

Just keep in mind that for both HDR and DV, you're not supposed to change brightness. If you do, it changes the PQ curve.

[flaviowolff]

Yep, OLED-full-black-screen-check (Mehanik HDR10 test patterns) is a pretty good way to do it with an OLED for HDR playback.

(LG b8) I did the test and had to reduce black level to 49 to have it full black (no dithering) on hdr. But now I lose visibility of about 4 squares next to reference black on the other pattern. Brightness 50 makes the entire screen glow. So now I have to choose between raised black or black crush. Only if Netflix allowed us to disable hdr/DV altogether in the app...

[chros]

Curious about Apple TV+, it's artifacting with DV on my firestick but not the internal app.
Also not sure where you're manually forcing the refresh rate, mine only has 60/50 Hz options to set manually.
Though Kodi can let me select 23/24p.
I don't use Kodi on it, only those 2 internal apps.
Yes,, they screwed up something lately (I updated ATV+ a month ago or so) and there is visible tearing now with it (it was perfect before that update).
Manually forcing (https://youtu.be/WF2g8s7AmQ8) 2160p@24p: hold down rewind + Up button to get the hidden menu, you have to wait until it gets to the desired resolution/refresh option. (It also works within an app not just on the main screen.)

Setting brightness doesn't require a meter, IMO.
I agree and honestly, if you watch mostly HDR content then you don't need a meter at all (unless your set has black crush, etc.) :)

Yep, OLED-full-black-screen-check (Mehanik HDR10 test patterns) is a pretty good way to do it with an OLED for HDR playback.
Normally this is what you want to do:
- disable every extra processing / BS on the TV
- select ISF Dark / Bright rooom for SDR / Cinema (not Home) for HDR10/DV (and leave everything else on default: brightness, contrast, etc.; you can modify Oled Light in SDR)
- if you output RGB Full form the PC, then you have to set Black Level to High on LG

Note that LG has different presets for HDMI / built-in player / PC mode as well, so you may have to check / set everything multiple times :)

After these you can look at contents and test videos.

Hi, are you still using the B8?
My set is on the latest firmware (05.20.01, I guess). I don't have black crush with SDR or hDR10 (i upgraded from 04.10.36 directly to 05.10.50, thus avoiding the plagued 04.10.65, and I think that saved me from the bug), but yesterday I ran the Black PULGE DV pattern and could only clearly see one bar.. the "second" bar appeared very faintly at brightness 52, but at 53 pure blacks glowed. Couldn't see any rectangular boxes at the left..

Apparently I have black crush only with DV..

Yes, I'm on the good old firmware.
I asked you about this here (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-b8-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2188352/post-28429500) back in the day 2 times (!) but you never replied!
How do you know that SDR is fine? You said over there that you use IRE change with SDR.
With DV (everything is at default in Cinema preset) I see (in pitch black) 1 vertical bar and 2 boxes on the left (using Oppo via HDMI).

[flaviowolff]

I asked you about this here (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-b8-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2188352/post-28429500) back in the day 2 times (!) but you never replied!
How do you know that SDR is fine? You said over there that you use IRE change with SDR.
With DV (everything is at default in Cinema preset) I see (in pitch black) 1 vertical bar and 2 boxes on the left (using Oppo via HDMI).

Hi, chros:

First off, sorry for vanishing from that thread. For some reason, I missed the notifications about your reply, and I wasn't using my TV much in the last months, so I kind of halted the hobby altogether. I'll try not to abandon discussions again.

So here are my current status under 05.20.01 (historically, my firmware upgrade path was 04.10.25 -> 04.10.36 -> 05.10.50 -> 05.20.01):

SDR: I used the AVS709 black clipping pattern. I get 17-25 to flash correctly from brightness 50 up to 52, with or without lower IREs boosts. I usually raise my lowest IREs to retrieve some shadow detail under gamma 2.4, but bar 16 is still pitch black at brightness 52.;
HDR10: I thought I didn't have black crush with HDR10 because it looked good to my eyes (never actually watched much content tho), but yesterday I used the "OLED full black screen" pattern (Mehanik Test Patterns) and realised that I had glow on brightness 50. Had to reduce to 49. Now I lose like 4 squares at the right of "reference black" on the "Black-Level-V1" pattern. Brightness 50 on "Black-Level-V1" retrieve those squares, but everything glows. This is on "Cinema" preset, every processing off, but the same results are perceived on "Cinema Home" with DTM on;

DV: Using BlackPulge's pattern and both Cinema or Cinema Home presets, at brightness 50 I get only one vertical bar to glow. At 52, I could made the second bar faintly appear (it "dithers" when I put my nose next to the screen). Couldn't see any boxes on the left. Brightness 53 makes everything glow. So I'm set with 52 with some black crush, I guess.

I'm thinking about messing with the pixel sub-brightness on the service menu, but I'm a bit worried because it's a global setting, and I'm facing opposite issues with DV and HDR10 at their default settings: raised black on HDR10 and black crush on DV. I'd have to find a value that hopefully helps one but won't worsen the other (and SDR). Won't be able to test for that for a while.


Thank you for all your very organized and effortful replies, Chros.

I will copy this post and reply at the B8 thread, since this is not a specific madvr issue. You may respond there if you prefer.

[chros]

No worries then, here is fine. So you also installed 5.10.50 ...
What do you see with brightness 50 using SDR (without IRE adjustment) and DV? Try to do it like this (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-b8-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2188352/post-27944812), below that post you can see 2 results and later couple of others posted their own.
I don't know which service menu option you are referring to, I only modified the White Point a bit in EZ Adjust.

[flaviowolff]

No worries then, here is fine. So you also installed 5.10.50 ...
What do you see with brightness 50 using SDR (without IRE adjustment) and DV? Try to do it like this (https://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-b8-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2188352/post-27944812), below that post you can see 2 results and later couple of others posted their own.
I don't know which service menu option you are referring to, I only modified the White Point a bit in EZ Adjust.

About the service menu setting, this is what I'm talking about: (quoting @kittakakara from Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/comments/a73tb3/lg_oled_glow_at_brightness_54_almost_like_ips/)):

"Load up Wizziwig's slide, turn off the lights in your room, and get real close to the tv and look at the black background. Increase the brightness until you see anything at all turn on on the background. Stay one click underneath where the background starts to glow. To help near black detail, go to the white balance and go to 20 points IRE. Go to IRE and set it all the way down to 5. At IRE 5, increase Adjusting Luminance to 8, then go to IRE 10 and adjust to the luminance to 6. Then change IRE 15 luminance to 4, and finally IRE 20 luminance to 2. If you want even more detail, you can go into the LG service menu if you have a phone with an IR blaster. In the service menu, you can reduce the sub pixel brightness from 128 to 127 which reduces the overall panel brightness about 1/3 of a normal brightness click. This can get you to go one more click up on the normal brightness without getting background glow, resolving more detail. For example on my tv the background started to glow at brightness 52, but after changing the sub pixel brightness to 127 I can go to brightness 52 with no glow. This new brightness is essentially brightness 51.66

If you want to know how to get to the service menu, reply to this comment and I'll explain. If you don't want to go to the service menu, changing the IRE luminance and increasing brightness to the highest amount without glow should help some.

I wouldn't mess with the sub pixel brightness too much more than one click, but technically you could fiddle with it and your results may vary. For example you could drop it to 126 and you might be able to get brightness up to 53 with no glow, which would essentially be brightness 52.33, but I wouldn't recommend it. What I said above is probably the best you can do. Also be sure to change the IRE luminance on all the inputs and picture modes you are going to use, since the changes aren't global. The sub pixel brightness changes are global though. Also you cant really change IRE luminance on game mode, HDR10, or Dolby Vision so I wouldn't bother with trying on any of those. And since the sub pixel brightness changes are global, you may have to experiment with what brightness your HDR10, game mode, and dolby vision settings should be at within background glow. 52 brightness adds glow in dolby vision for me even with those changes, so I keep it at 51 for example."


I will redo all the testing when I have time to (probably in two weeks from now).
As of now: my SDR testing was made using the avs HD 709's black clipping pattern, downloaded from the link you provided. 17 and above flash correctly on brightness 50 and no IRE boosts. It's still ok up to brightness 52 including lower IRE boosts. Brightness 53 glows bar 16, even without IRE boosts. Same results on ISF Dark Room gamma 2.4/Bright Room gamma 2.2 or Technicolor 2.2..

DV on brightness 50 (blackpulge pattern - cinema or cinema home [same results]): can only see one vertical bar. Same on brightness 51. Brightness 52 makes the other bar appear very faintly (no rectangular boxes visible). Brightness 53 makes everything glow.

I also briefly tested my Sony X900F (know to have a horribly dark Dolby Vision) using the blackpulge pattern, and I see nothing until I raise gamma to max, then I can see a single bar. Try to imagine a crushed dolby vision with FALD blooming lol..

[chros]

Ok, then if that is indeed the case then I think it's not a problem with SDR/DV, it can be panel variance. HDR10 is wierd that you have to lower it to 49 but as you said you haven't tested it beforehand.

[flaviowolff]

Ok, then if that is indeed the case then I think it's not a problem with SDR/DV, it can be panel variance. HDR10 is wierd that you have to lower it to 49 but as you said you haven't tested it beforehand.

yes, I definetely get the "plasma dithering" kind of noise on the whole screen on brightness 50. :scared: Well, better than having black crush on SDR, I guess.. we definetely can't have it all :P

[Magik Mark]

Chros,

Are you updating your tone mapping in madvr using v114 beta?