MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread [Archive] - Page 16

chros

29th May 2020, 13:36

Very nice! I was hopeful that would be the case since they were talking up the HDR gaming quality. I saw a LG rep say they moved the HDR processing in the video chain to allow it to run in game mode with low latency. This made me hope PC mode would benefit as well.

I am still waiting for the 48" but I will report my finding once it is available. :)
Now it's clear: there's no change in PC icon mode on CX (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3138274-2020-lg-cxa-gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-16.html#post59725052). :(

Asmodian

29th May 2020, 21:10

Well that is depressing, still no decent 444 chroma with HDR I guess. :(

VBB

29th May 2020, 21:12

And the one Sony guy who shows up in that thread then tells me he's never used PC mode :(

RXP

16th July 2020, 06:55

Thought I'd report my MadVR use with my C6.

My C6 has terrible Gamma tracking and greyscale. a 3D LUT fixed it nicely for SDR. It's dramatically different. No more crappy purple mess at low IRE's. HDR though is another story - still the same issue - looks pretty bad which is why I always thought HDR sucked. Until I got my C9 and realised it doesn't.

Because I can't do a 3D LUT (calibration, not tone mapping) due to the pattern generator not kicking into HDR I just ran a LUT in SDRBT2020. MadVR is buggy here - you have to enable and disable report BT2020 in the profile before the pattern generator outputs it. Anyway, now I have perfect tracking and greyscale in Gamma world.

Now i just tone map to SDR. I just saw my first movie on it yesterday, Hunter Killer, and it looked great. In the moment I didn't feel I was loosing out by the loss of light output in SDR (452 measured peak white vs 650 in HDR) and in fact I think it looked better. I didn't get any of the overly bright whiteness I assume is due to white subpixel dilution.

So if you're struggling with HDR passthrough or natively - give it a try! It's not all about peak nits. I'm finally happy with my C6 for HDR.

I've also realised that the "white boost" setting in my C9 is basically how HDR mode works. If you set it to off, the brightness is the same as SDR. So with the C6 SDR is like HDR without the white subpixel boost. See here for stats (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3045638-will-lg-s-new-switch-off-white-feature-improve-color-volume.html#post58171276)

Asmodian

16th July 2020, 08:20

Now it's clear: there's no change in PC icon mode on CX (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3138274-2020-lg-cxa-gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-16.html#post59725052). :(

There is one fairly major improvement for PC mode. HDR no longer sucks! This is huge for me, I still need to send 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 but I do not need to change the label to HDMI and lose 4:4:4 when watching HDR, unlike with my C9. Game mode HDR is also good. :D

Edit: You know, given how well this TV handles 12 bit input I will probably want to send it 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 all the time anyway, even once HDMI 2.1 GPUs are available. :p

chros

16th July 2020, 10:06

There is one fairly major improvement for PC mode. HDR no longer sucks! This is huge for me, I still need to send 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 but I do not need to change the label to HDMI and lose 4:4:4 when watching HDR, unlike with my C9. Game mode HDR is also good. :D
That would be more than surprising since the guys in the other thread confirmed the issue, and even Vincent mentioned this (https://youtu.be/NrRUTqfB_Ts?t=906) in his CX review for the first time! :)

You can test it by yourself if you want with these (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3138274-2020-lg-cxa-gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-14.html#post59700054) (especially II.).

Asmodian

16th July 2020, 20:01

That would be more than surprising since the guys in the other thread confirmed the issue, and even Vincent mentioned this (https://youtu.be/NrRUTqfB_Ts?t=906) in his CX review for the first time! :)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Banding is the same as before in PC mode, that is I was trying to indicate with still needing to send it 8 bit YCbCr :o.

The entire gamut used to be crushed, a "gamut volume" test would fail horribly. Now I measure the same volume and HDR color accuracy in any HDR mode with PC or HDMI set. Color accuracy tests do not notice banding.

When sending 8 bit YCbCr 4:4:4 limited doesn't have bad banding for me either, after a lot of fiddling with the calibration. Downloading your tests now but I doubt I will disagree with you. :)

VBB

16th July 2020, 21:05

Well, that is at least some good news. I'll be hanging on to my C7 for at least another year ;)

Asmodian

17th July 2020, 05:47

That would be more than surprising since the guys in the other thread confirmed the issue, and even Vincent mentioned this (https://youtu.be/NrRUTqfB_Ts?t=906) in his CX review for the first time! :)

You can test it by yourself if you want with these (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/3138274-2020-lg-cxa-gx-dedicated-gaming-thread-consoles-pc-14.html#post59700054) (especially II.).

When testing those HDR clips everything seems fine on my CX. Even when sending 8 bit RGB full range I don't notice any banding or weirdness. The first one especially is pretty dark and red but no banding. The second is brighter (and flashes a lot) but I didn't notice any banding either. I am probably just being blind but it is definitely not bad enough to be distracting. :o

I find the Blue Planet II Intro logo (https://www.mediafire.com/file/jclto58qpldutk8/Planet_Earth_II_Logo.mkv/file) a more difficult banding test, I can see banding with RGB full but YCbCr 444 is very good. I did take a while calibrating near black or maybe the software update helped? Or I am just blind? :p

huhn

17th July 2020, 06:12

or the 49 version is different or the screen creates the problem by upscaling the chroma or or...

chros

17th July 2020, 16:54

When testing those HDR clips everything seems fine on my CX. Even when sending 8 bit RGB full range I don't notice any banding or weirdness. The first one especially is pretty dark and red but no banding.
II. is not banding but posterization :) But if you don't see it then stop looking for it, and just enjoy it :)

Asmodian

17th July 2020, 19:21

II. is not banding but posterization :) But if you don't see it then stop looking for it, and just enjoy it :)

No, No. Screens are for testing, not watching things. :p

Hmm, I do notice near black posterization. Changing back and forth between PC and non-PC mode is so annoying now it is harder to test but if I pause on some scenes and switch back and for the difference is definitely noticeable.

I am still happy the PC mode can actually do somewhat decent HDR now and the posterization is not very bad. I wonder if we will ever get a TV that can do full quality with full res chroma. :mad:

huhn

17th July 2020, 19:50

the sony?

Asmodian

17th July 2020, 20:18

the sony?

Well, I need HDMI 2.1 and low input lag too. :(

But I do think it is likely my next TV will be from Sony. They will probably have caught up to the rest for 4K@120 Hz gaming by then and will likely still have the best imaging processing.

With even one HDMI 2.1 port their current OLED TV would have been very attractive. I am really liking this 48" over my old 55" though. I hope they sell well so other brands come out with OLEDs <55" too.

huhn

17th July 2020, 20:32

well it has HDMI 2.1 and 120 HZ support but no VRR.

VBB

17th July 2020, 21:36

Was it ever confirmed that the Sony doesn't have the same issues in its Graphics/Game modes? Those two are the ones that allow for full chroma, but I've never heard from even a single Sony user in that regard.

huhn

17th July 2020, 21:41

i'm not aware where PC modes degrades image quality on any sony TV.
the input lag get's massively lower so there has to be something.

edit: before even someone things sony is the holy grail or something they are not. they have banding problems like all other TVs they are freaking expensive. there strong point is pretty much there PC mode...

VBB

17th July 2020, 21:46

Would be great to hear from an actual Sony OLED user, though. It would make my next buying decision significantly easier.

Asmodian

17th July 2020, 22:41

well it has HDMI 2.1 and 120 HZ support but no VRR.

Sony doesn't have any 4K120 OLEDs this gen. :(
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/Sony_2020_TVs_HDMI.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds (https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1581346800)

VBB

17th July 2020, 23:04

As, I don't know if you're planning to get the Club3D DP adapter, but there's been a lot of talk about it over on AVS lately. A couple of guys have been using it with their C9s, and they got both RGB and YCbCr 10-bit @120Hz to work right out of the box. One of them reported that things in PC mode seem way better at that refresh rate compared to 60Hz. I don't recall seeing any reports from CX users yet, but what's a little troubling is that the above combos go slightly over the CX's 40 Gb bandwidth limit.

Are you on AVS, btw?

Asmodian

17th July 2020, 23:57

It looks like the first HDMI 2.1 GPUs will be out pretty soon but one is on the way, it could be useful other places too. I am suspicious about its use of DSC though:
With its DPTM1.4 DSC video compression technology, this adapter can convert DPTM1.4 video signals to HDMITM2.1 and support resolutions up to 8K (7680 x 4320)@60Hz**

LG has confirmed the inputs can do YCbCr 444 10 bit, I think using that as the bandwidth limit instead of a hard limit at 40.0 Gbps is a safe assumption.

huhn

18th July 2020, 02:13

i most likely get one of those adapter. but they can't do VRR.

but i have mistaken a useless 8k TV with an OLED so who knows maybe the VRR info is wrong too.

VBB

18th July 2020, 02:18

huhn

18th July 2020, 03:20

cyberscott

18th July 2020, 04:25

Judging by the HDMI diagnostics screen of one of the guys, there was no DSC involved to get this working. That's a good thing.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2758750&d=1594860388

It's been confirmed by Club3D that the adapter does not support VRR, and will not be firmware upgradable either (for that feature).

That would be me who posted the HDMI diagnostic screen on avsforum. :) I've been using the CAC-1085 with my C9 and RTX 2080 Ti for that past week. Finally got most of the video bugs worked out. It isn't exactly plug and play and requires a lot of patience and messing around with it.
Being able to play videos back on madVR at 4K@120Hz RGB Full 10 bit 4:4:4 is great! HDR works at the same resolution and bit rate. I can use 12 bit but not much of a point as the TV is native 10 bit and there is no change in picture quality that I can see at 12 bit.
I think the CAC-1085 is a fairly affordable stop gate measure until the next generation of graphic cards with built it HDMI 2.1 are released.

VBB

18th July 2020, 07:28

VBB

18th July 2020, 07:31

DSC is only used between the adaptor and the GPU HDMI doesn't know about it. and a chroma test pattern shouldn't help detecting it because it's not subsampling is more comparable with a video codec.

in the end DSC jsut depends on the setting set on the GPU. if you use a signal type DP can do without DSC it will do it without DSC. i can't remember if DP 1.4 can do 10 or 8 bit 4K 120 hz.

Right, but what the photo shows is that the panel is using all three lanes, at 14.8 Gbps each. If DSC was used, it wouldn't use that much bandwidth. Unless you're trying to saying that the display has no idea about DSC being used for compression, and it just reports the uncompressed bandwidth as the end result. That could of course be the case.

Asmodian

18th July 2020, 08:01

I think the DSC is running on the display port side of the adapter, not the HDMI one, so the TV or anything plugged into HDMI would have no idea.

The maximum bandwidth of DP 1.4 is 32.4 Gbps, so it should max out at 8 bit 4K120 444, so 10 bit requires DSC to the adapter but not to the TV. This is fine by me, the TV looks better with 8 bit YCbCr 444 input anyway. :)

I think the CAC-1085 is a fairly affordable stop gate measure until the next generation of graphic cards with built it HDMI 2.1 are released.

Thanks for the report. It does sounds like it is a good solution. I don't mind a bit of fiddling.

huhn

18th July 2020, 09:53

Right, but what the photo shows is that the panel is using all three lanes, at 14.8 Gbps each. If DSC was used, it wouldn't use that much bandwidth. Unless you're trying to saying that the display has no idea about DSC being used for compression, and it just reports the uncompressed bandwidth as the end result. That could of course be the case.

that is the case because that's how an active adapter works.

the display get's a uncompressed signal it can't read the DP DSC anyway so the adapter has to decode it and output it to the screen uncompressed or again apply DSC (dumb). it has to completely repack the signal anyway DP 1.4 has 8/10 encoding while hdmi 2.1 has 16/18 and DP 2.0 will get 128/130 encoding.

HDMI 2.1 is suppose to have 4 lanes odd.

kostik

18th July 2020, 13:19

That would be me who posted the HDMI diagnostic screen on avsforum. :) I've been using the CAC-1085 with my C9 and RTX 2080 Ti for that past week. Finally got most of the video bugs worked out. It isn't exactly plug and play and requires a lot of patience and messing around with it.
Being able to play videos back on madVR at 4K@120Hz RGB Full 10 bit 4:4:4 is great! HDR works at the same resolution and bit rate. I can use 12 bit but not much of a point as the TV is native 10 bit and there is no change in picture quality that I can see at 12 bit.
I think the CAC-1085 is a fairly affordable stop gate measure until the next generation of graphic cards with built it HDMI 2.1 are released.

Too bad I don't have RTX card. With my gtx 1080 I am able to display RGB 12/10 bit with 60Hz max. And YCBCR 12\10bit 4:2:2 120Hz as oppose to YCBCR 4:2:0 8bit 120Hz . Takes time to switch modes correctly, needs a bit playing such as enabling and disabling AMD FreeSync premium (on CX ) and disabling Game Instant and it also doesn't survive reboots LOL. But overall, a nice addition till hdmi 2.1 cards are released ... I won't bother buying RTX card .

cyberscott

18th July 2020, 21:33

Hey Scott! Nice to see you here. I've been reading your posts over at AVS, and it's great to see you got it all working properly, at least on the video side. Since you say you're watching at 120Hz, my guess is you're using smooth motion. I've been looking forward to doing the same. Any noticeable difference compared to 60Hz from a perceived motion perspective?

I've been a member of Doom9 since 2007 but I don't do as much posting as other members do. :)
I currently have my smooth motion setting to "only if there would be motion judder without it". With that setting, I have rarely seen smooth motion turn on. For my system, I have experimented with setting smooth motion to "always" and have seen either no difference in judder to it actually causing some judder to be introduced where there hadn't been before.
As far as perceived motion perspective difference between 60Hz or 120Hz, watching at 120Hz without smooth motion tends to be as good or even slightly better than than 60Hz with smooth motion always on, at least on my hardware.

VBB

18th July 2020, 22:20

cyberscott

19th July 2020, 00:10

Do you have TruMotion and Real Cinema disabled? From the way you describe it, you should be seeing major judder.

EDIT: Now that I've re-read your post, I think I understand. At 60Hz, you did need SM on "always", but at 120Hz you do not to get the same or better motion. Makes sense to me, if Real Cinema stays enabled as well for a 5:5 pull down.

I'm using the LG C9 HDMI port in PC Mode which is the only HDMI mode that allows 4:4:4 chroma. I am also using Game Picture Mode Setting. In this picture setting almost all extra picture processing options are disabled / greyed out except for Black Level, Motion Eye Care and TruMotion.
I don't use TruMotion as it causes flicker and cuts the brightness in half and actually makes motion worse and I have Motion Eye Care disabled.
To summarize, I'm using madVR at 120Hz with no hardware motion correction. madVR is set to use Smooth Motion "only if there would be motion judder without it" and it seldom ever activates.

VBB

19th July 2020, 00:18

cyberscott

19th July 2020, 01:08

Gotcha. Forgot you're using PC mode, of course. Good to know that this combo works well without any processing whatsoever. My plan has been to use SM at 120Hz, just like I use it now at 60Hz. I prefer the frame blending on the OLED, but I realize that the effect will be lessened at 120Hz. Can't wait to jump in myself some time next year when I upgrade to whatever makes the most sense then (LG/Sony/Vizio, not necessarily in that order).

:D

The 2021 Vizio Collection's OLED will be sourcing LG's panels.
They will have a lot of features on par with the LG C9 and CX and most likely be at a better price per inch. Something to keep on eye on as the sets might be out before the end of this year. https://www.vizio.com/2021-tv-collection

huhn

19th July 2020, 10:54

which is nearly for sure the same panel and taking vizio track record into account not "promising" to say it friendly.

VBB

19th July 2020, 18:25

I got nothing but love for Vizio! They've been pushing the envelope since the 2014 P-series :)

nevcairiel

19th July 2020, 18:35

The Vizios do look great on paper, unfortunately I was never able to see one in real life since they have not expanded to Europe yet. The 2019 Vizio P-Series would've been a real contender otherwise.

huhn

19th July 2020, 19:49

the p series has a 6.9 in the banding test from rtings.
port depending inputlag and port depending HDR.

i'm not taking rtings as perfect but 6.9 is quite a number.
they do good on peak brightness but that's gone with oled.

do not forget they don't produce panels they use the same as other TV brands so the processing is the difference and banding is one of the most important one you can mass up.

VBB

19th July 2020, 20:04

It's good for us here in the US to have another OLED competitor, since we lost Panasonic a while ago. You guys in Germany have way more options.

Aber meine Frau sagt schon die ganze Zeit wenn Trump die naechste Wahl gewinnt will sie nach Deutschland ziehen. Von daher kann es sein, dass mein naechster Fernseher ein Panasonic sein wird ;)

huhn

19th July 2020, 20:12

well Panasonic and 4:4:4 is it's own story.

but yes there is quite a selection of bad brands.

nevcairiel

19th July 2020, 23:06

You guys in Germany have way more options.

There are no actually usable brands left that actually make good TVs. Those that are left sell re-branded stuff from the big makers.

Its not really any better here. You get Samsung, Sony and LG. And maybe Philips (who use LG OLED panel), and Panasonic (which are not that awesome).

Although Philips is coming to the US, I heard. And I do like their Ambilight stuff. No HDMI 2.1 though. Maybe next year.

aufkrawall

20th July 2020, 00:07

I wonder if there is any OLED TV that features an sRGB clamp in PC mode (for basically everything SDR)? And if so, is it any good and not causing lag etc.?

Does using a 3D LUT created by DisplayCal offer increased quality vs. the automatic conversion for color managed applications (which madVR seems to be) when an ICC profile installed?

Do LG's wide gamut OLEDs in unclamped mode have similar oversaturation vs. wide gamut LCDs + RGB backlight?

huhn

20th July 2020, 01:29

only LG and Samsung are producing panels and consumer grade TVs at the moment maybe TCL too.

so sony and panasonic are rebranding too. so all other use LG samsung, orient, AU optronics or others.

what ever that's worth these days my old Philips had a phenomenal PC mode back at a time where PC mode was something unusually and it was the only TV i have ever tested that didn't produce banding. i was throwing 16 bit dithered to 12 bit at it and it didn't care.

Asmodian

23rd July 2020, 08:38

I'm using the LG C9 HDMI port in PC Mode which is the only HDMI mode that allows 4:4:4 chroma.

Can you get 4K RGB/444 from the Club-3D CAC-1085 on the C9? Have you checked with ChromaRes (http://www.mediafire.com/view/40a9jrk3q03s7gk/ChromaRes.png) or similar?

I was finally able to get it to send 3840x2160@120Hz to my CX by switching to 2560x1440@120Hz first, power cycling the adapter, and then switching to 3840x2160@120Hz. I had a lot of trouble with it wanting to use 4096x2160 instead, sending a signal the ended up with a horizontally squished blurry 3840x2160 on the display. But the display shows 4:2:2 with the ChromaRes test pattern, it is in PC mode and Nvidia thinks it is sending 8 bit RGB full 3840x2160@120 Hz. :(

I have had trouble finding much on AVS too.

huhn

23rd July 2020, 08:39

that sounds terrible maybe i skip on my adapter for now and live with 60 hz...

Asmodian

23rd July 2020, 09:16

I think it is actually DSC not interacting well with the ChromaRes test pattern. It does seem fine in normal use, better than 4:2:2 and much better than 4:2:0 which is my only other option for now. I get to experiment with DSC too, so maybe not all bad.

Text is sharper than if I set Nvidia to 4:2:2 but ChromaRes looks about the same in either mode. There is a weird seam down the exact center of the display when using DSC. It is one pixel wide and only visible in the ChromaRes test pattern. It is very odd. It goes away if I set the output to 4:2:2.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/dd496/asmodian3/DSC_ChromaRes_Artifact_2.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds

Power cycling the adapter is very common, not always but it often goes all weird with strange blocky image corruption when changing modes.

Edit: I can use 10 bit RGB as well, it looks about the same and I can see more steps in a 16 bit gradient dithered to 10 bit by madVR. 120 Hz without 4:2:0 is great, I have missed the higher refresh rate.

HDR works normally too, with the caveat that the adapter might need to be power cycled when HDR is enabled, it does count as a mode change. Limited/Full even counts as a mode change for some reason (DSC?). It needs a reset switch. :p

Now it is stuck in 10 bit mode?! This adapter is so weirdly buggy! ... and back to 8 bit, it finally went blocky instead of losing signal. It would lose signal when attempting to change to 8 bit but would come back without actually changing it. Reopening the control panel would be back on 10 bit. madVR always reported 10 bit for the display. I could change refresh rate, just not bitdepth. I power cycled it and unplugged from both ends a few times.. :confused:

Edit2: Yeah, I don't think this would work for normal people. Needing to power cycle it a large percentage of the time when switching into or out of HDR (or any mode) is not OK. madVR's FSE even counts as a mode change that might require a power cycle.....

VBB

23rd July 2020, 21:31

There are several people with the adapter, mainly in the C9 gaming thread. Scott is one of them. Sounds like a mess right now, but in my opinion, no one can be sure what to blame until next-gen video cards are out and a complete HDMI 2.1 chain can be tested. In my experience with their previous adapters, Club 3D has been good about fixing things via firmware updates. They were easy to communicate with and understood the problems at hand. The only downside is that they don't post their updates on the website anymore (they did a long time ago).