MadVR in use with LG OLED Thread

[quietvoid]

Well you can always give it a try :)

[SamuriHL]

UGHHHH you do know what it means if it doesn't work, right? I don't enjoy factory resets. Besides mine's not broken in nearly enough to be playing with that stuff yet.

[quietvoid]

I thought new models reset LUTs on preset reset now?
At least that's what I've read/been told by Ted IIRC?

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/page-194#post-61524158

2018 models really were unlucky.

[SamuriHL]

Not for 1D LUT. That's only for 3D LUT. Once you touch the 1D LUT a whole bunch of crap happens that's not idea. One of which is firmware fixes won't be applied if they change anything that could impact the LUT without a factory reset because LG believes that if you paid for calibration and their firmware updates mess it up they could be on the hook for fixing it. So I've avoided 1D LUTs like the plague but if they can really work in HDR then a 22pt grayscale calibration becomes plausible. Theoretically.

[chros]

It can be easily tested, just upload a bad one, do a preset reset and see what happens. :) It should clear the 1dlut as well.
Thanks for asking Dnice about it, it's good news, I told you it works for me on B8 :) (although I used aiopylgtv not the rest).
Vincent tested SDR for near black, but not Hdr10 nor Dovi.

On a different note: Samsung S95b turned out to be a complete mess. :)
- they copied all the bad algos that LG implemented in the last 5 years (tcp, gsr, etc), they can't be turned off
- Auto option for gamut applies random colors spaces :) I mean come on... And as it turned out this bug is present in other Samsung LCD models as well, and I have never heard of it until now, and those models were always recommended by reviewers/influences... What a joke...

[SamuriHL]

I'll get around to it eventually. This is not a week I have time for much playing around unfortunately. Just too much going on until the weekend.

D-Nice did not respond to me, unfortunately. Hopefully he will.

I still need to do black level testing, I know but as mentioned this week is just not happening. Maybe Saturday night I can squeeze in some time for that.

I don't understand the hype around the S95B. The first reviews I saw, before Vincent blew the doors off the house with the calibration detecting algorithm BS, all looked way oversaturated to me. Yet the reviewers were all sitting there going "now THIS is how those colors are supposed to look, no other panel can come close, blah blah woof woof". WTF? Have they never seen an oversaturated image before? I will give them a pass only because Samsung went out of their way to trick them into thinking it was flawless accuracy based on the stupid window size detection crap they're pulling. The thing is, there was no need for any of this. QD OLED panels are obviously an improvement over WOLED. This just makes them look pathetic when in reality they have a really good panel that can definitely compete. Sony will show that with the a95k.

[chros]

Yes, let's see Sony or LG in the next year(s)? :)

[SamuriHL]

I think this competition is good. It'll shake LG out of their "let's just do a minor upgrade year over year" apathy. Now maybe they'll push the blue OLEDs sooner and shock everyone. This can only be good for consumers. I will be keeping the G2 for quite a while given the expense of it but it'll eventually end up on my bedroom wall to replace the C8 (LMAO) when I do ultimately get something newer. So far, though I'm REALLY loving the G2. It is remarkable for movie viewing. I can't wait to get it broken in a bit so I can get it calibrated and try out some different things. And yes, I'm using PC mode and have so far not noticed any glaring issues. That streaming device problem was indeed caused by the color gamut being set to native by default. (DAFUQ you doing, LG) Once I fixed that everything looks awesome.

[chros]

I'm happy you say these :)

[SamuriHL]

Me too. Believe me that was a concern. But PC mode has been vastly improved since our 18 series.

[ashlar42]

The EVO panels require a different AWP and I've seen recommendations that 77" or higher should target straight D65.Do you remember if those recommendations were from D-Nice? I am using the AWP he suggested for the C1 with Evo panels (such as my 77") and, admittedly just from memory, it looks closer to how I remember the Kuro plasma I used to have.

Edit: I ask because I refer to this post of his: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-60981622 where he is answering a 77C1 owner.

[SamuriHL]

Yea, D-Nice at one point said the 77 and up should use D65. I don't have a link to the post but I encountered it when searching for AWP. I have no intention of targeting anything but D65 on my G2 77.

[SamuriHL]

The G2 77" is an absolute beast of a display.

Calibrated Dolby Vision cinema mode last night. We can't really validate that but I flattened out the grayscale so it tracks EOTF really well. I got a peak luminance of 921 nits. Watched John Wick 3 on my UB820. DAMN! Absolutely beautiful.

Then overnight I calibrated ISF Dark mode to bt.1886 100 nits. I kinda messed that up a little bit but overall I got a dE 0.4.

Tonight I'll do an HDR calibration. We'll see how that goes. Maybe I'll sacrifice a picture mode and try a 1D LUT. We'll see.

These are results from the OOTB white point balance. Once the panel is broken in a bit more, I'll handle the white point balance and redo DV and ISF calibrations.

[SamuriHL]

I did my hdr calibration. Just a 2pt grayscale adjustment plus a custom tone curve. I measured 884 peak nits which is just about right for the g2. So I set that as my peak luminance and then set all the tone curves to roll off at 100% which disables tone mapping. Next I set madvr to 884 nits. This hdr mode, cinema, will only be used for madvr but it now pretty much behaves like hgig without the crappy game mode hdr issues. Madvr has complete control over the tone map. I ran a sweep at 1000 nits to verify the rolloff point and indeed 884 nits is all she wrote.

After calibration and setting up the tone curve and madvr, I watched Shang chi. Holy hell that was an amazing experience. I absolutely love this panel.

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[chros]

Maybe I'll sacrifice a picture mode and try a 1D LUT.
I replied to this as well on avs.

Then overnight I calibrated ISF Dark mode to bt.1886 100 nits.
But whyyyy ... 100 ???? :)

[SamuriHL]

Because for sdr movie viewing at night that is the most appropriate. My day mode will be higher.

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[ashlar42]

I did my hdr calibration. Just a 2pt grayscale adjustment plus a custom tone curve. I measured 884 peak nits which is just about right for the g2. So I set that as my peak luminance and then set all the tone curves to roll off at 100% which disables tone mapping. Next I set madvr to 884 nits. This hdr mode, cinema, will only be used for madvr but it now pretty much behaves like hgig without the crappy game mode hdr issues. Madvr has complete control over the tone map. I ran a sweep at 1000 nits to verify the rolloff point and indeed 884 nits is all she wrote.

After calibration and setting up the tone curve and madvr, I watched Shang chi. Holy hell that was an amazing experience. I absolutely love this panel.
Some questions on this, if you'd be so kind.

1) How do you set up the tone curves, I suspect you use Device Control in conjunction with Colur Space. So what are the values to input in the three settings available (if they are the same as the 1 Series)?

2) Would you mind sharing your madVR HDR settings? There are so many of them and you seem a reasonable and knowledgeable guy, so I would take yours as a good starting point.

3) The tone curves are per picture mode or TV wide? Because I could use them as you describe for HTPC use but my family uses often the Netflix and Prime Video apps and I wouldn't want to mess up HDR for them.

[SamuriHL]

My usual disclaimer applies here. I'm by no means an expert on any of this stuff. So please understand I'm not claiming to be.

1) Yes, Device Control. After doing the grayscale adjustment, you run a 22pt grayscale measurement and you get the peak luminance from that. In my case it measured 884 nits. In device control, I enable calibration and pick the HDR mode I want to change. This is per picture mode, to answer 3). But the picture mode is applied to all HDMI and internal connections that use it. In this case I used Cinema mode. I set the peak to 884 nits and then set each of the mastering peak levels to 100 for the roll-off. This completely disables tone mapping and clips anything higher than the peak luminance you entered.

2) My settings are a mess right now. I wouldn't call them great even for a base. It's one of those things I've had on my plate to sit and work on since I rebuilt my HTPC back in February but haven't had the time yet. I'd definitely not consider them "great" but I can post a screen shot later if you'd like. Just know that they aren't likely to be what we ultimately want. Still, I watched Shang Chi with them last night and that looked damn good to me.

3) Right that's why I chose Cinema preset so that I can leave Filmmaker mode for anything that requires tone mapping on the display. You would just change the preset before watching something with madvr and keep it defaulted to, e.g. Filmmaker for everything else.

[SamuriHL]

Forgot to post this last night. As I said previously, this is maybe a starting point. Maybe. This image will self-destruct in 6 months since it'll be completely outdated at that point anyway:

https://i.ibb.co/Bcmgfkc/Madvr-159-2022-05-09.png (https://ibb.co/CmqnwLm)

[SamuriHL]

Do you remember if those recommendations were from D-Nice? I am using the AWP he suggested for the C1 with Evo panels (such as my 77") and, admittedly just from memory, it looks closer to how I remember the Kuro plasma I used to have.

Edit: I ask because I refer to this post of his: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-60981622 where he is answering a 77C1 owner.

Yea, D-Nice at one point said the 77 and up should use D65. I don't have a link to the post but I encountered it when searching for AWP. I have no intention of targeting anything but D65 on my G2 77.

As you likely saw from D-Nice's response on AVS, he is recommending AWP for all sizes of C1. That's likely going to be the same for the 2022 series, as well would be my guess. And this is why I have my standard disclaimer that I'm NOT the expert here. :)


https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-61661885

[lanzorg]

I may have missed something but are you implying that madvr would render better with an HDR10 file than a Dolby Vision file rendered by a compatible OLED TV?

[SamuriHL]

It's not that simple. It depends on a lot of variables. However, madvr dynamic tone mapping absolutely rivals DV in a lot of instances.

[lanzorg]

MadVR has much better image upscaling and refinements.
That's really what I miss the most, now I have to use TV built-in color tuner for "proper" colors and it's a real pain.

But if on top of that I can have a dolby vision like rendering, it's just completely crazy.
Is the chros73's HDR related configuration still relevant with latest madVR?
What do you advise me to modify for a QLED TV (Hisense U7QF)?

[SamuriHL]

I've no experience with that kind of display so I couldn't tell you. But yes the hdr quality of madvr is that good. My advice is to get it set up and just try it.

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[ashlar42]

As you likely saw from D-Nice's response on AVS, he is recommending AWP for all sizes of C1. That's likely going to be the same for the 2022 series, as well would be my guess. And this is why I have my standard disclaimer that I'm NOT the expert here. :)


https://www.avsforum.com/threads/colourspace-cms-next-generation-calibration-thread.3049142/post-61661885
Don't worry SamuriHL, we're all here to learn (I more than most). It's good to have a final clarification from him and I enormously appreciate the knowledge you strive to share here and elsewhere.

[SamuriHL]

I still won't be targeting an awp on the g2. He made it clear that 10nm spectros like my i1pro3 aren't necessarily sufficient to properly target an awp. I'm ok with leaving it as d65.

The picture quality I'm getting out of my g2 is amazing. I spent the last couple days playing with hdr calibration. The g2 tracks eotf so closely that a standard 2pt adjustment is really all that's needed. A 22pt adjustment may be possible but I'm having some problems in that area on mine. It's only showing 11 points in the 22pt adjustment menu for hdr. No idea why.

The other good news for chros73 is that 1d lut appears to work. I'm not seeing raised blacks. Could be that they are there and I'm just not able to see them in my environment but it doesn't seem to be an issue for me. So while that's good the benefit of the 1d lut vs a simple 2pt adjustment wasn't really there. Iow there was no benefit to the 1d lut. When I factory reset in a couple weeks to do a real calibration with sm wp I won't be using the 1d lut method to calibrate.

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[ashlar42]

3) Right that's why I chose Cinema preset so that I can leave Filmmaker mode for anything that requires tone mapping on the display. You would just change the preset before watching something with madvr and keep it defaulted to, e.g. Filmmaker for everything else.

I wanted to try this. I connect using the LG 2021 PQ Curve template, I request the pin, I enable calibration. Set all three values at 100, pressing the little pen button on the right for each one. Then I press Tonemap Upload. I disable calibration.

Problem is that if I re-enable calibration and load a different picture mode, it's with 100-100-100 too. As if I could upload a single tonemap for all three available HDR picture modes (Cinema, Filmmaker, Game).

Am I doing something wrong/missing something?

[SamuriHL]

No idea but that's not what's happening for me. I've only been able to do this for a few days now so I wouldn't be the person to ask on what's going on with that. They are for individual picture modes, though, so something's wrong.

[ashlar42]

No idea but that's not what's happening for me. I've only been able to do this for a few days now so I wouldn't be the person to ask on what's going on with that. They are for individual picture modes, though, so something's wrong.

Asked on AVS.

[SamuriHL]

I saw. Hopefully you get it cleared up.

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[quietvoid]

There seems to be a 700 CAD markup on the G2 here in Canada. Pretty unfortunate.
I'll likely be picking up a C2 when they show up at my local Costco.

Hopefully by then we'll know if the old bugs are still present.

I'm also tempted by the Sony A80K but it seems to have some issues with Dolby Vision, and I probably can't do as much wrt calibration.

[SamuriHL]

My dad's going to end up with an a80k at some point. Looks like a decent display. Personally, I love the G2.

[Kuler087]

Same here, I'm going to get the 77 C2 once it's available in local stores. I don't want to order it online.
Wanted the 77 G2 but it is way too expensive for me :(

According to HiFi4Vision (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/post-61668582) it sounds like the black crush in DV is still a problem.

[chros]

Wanted the 77 G2 but it is way too expensive for me :(
I'll likely be picking up a C2 when they show up at my local Costco.
Hopefully by then we'll know if the old bugs are still present.
I feel you, I wouldn't have bought it either, try to look for a deal eg half price :) (I still haven't got mine, maybe 1 month later).

According to HiFi4Vision (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2022-lg-c2-g2-owners-thread-no-price-talk.3236262/post-61668582) it sounds like the black crush in DV is still a problem.
He only checked SDR so far, we wait for SamuriHL to check these as well :D

[ashlar42]

I saw. Hopefully you get it cleared up.

Ok, so it appears that DeviceControl is monodirectional as far as data transfers for tonemap is concerned. You can send data but you cannot retrieve it. Hence it displays always the last dataset you input, for all picture modes.

I wish the guides mentioned this, as I personally found it quite disconcerting. But they're so awesome that... horse gift mouth, and all that stuff.

[chros]

Yes, it's not just DC, but Calman as well, no way to get calibration data out of LG.

[SamuriHL]

Yea makes sense. Not something we 2018 and early users ever knew about since uploading a tone curve was dark sorcery unavailable to us neophytes. LMAO :D And since I only touched one HDR mode I never really noticed on the G2. The more I play with this panel the more I love it. I can't believe jk82 got one....um....for now. :D That's awesome! The 2018 crowd strikes back! :D

[Kuler087]

I feel you, I wouldn't have bought it
He only checked SDR so far, we wait for SamuriHL to check these as well :D
I see...
I dont care about SDR (I have a PJ) so it's fine for me as long as DV black levels are improved compared to my C8. It seems to be the case for the C2 according to the link (ttps://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-c2-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2406245/page-21#post-30365086) you shared on avsforum. Quite encouraging results.

[SamuriHL]

I'll get to it this weekend. Last weekend was about calibration (and having a movie night with a friend). I'll have more time this weekend to look at it. I can say in HDR, I don't see any black issues with a 1D LUT loaded (or without one, either for that matter) so that's good. SDR looks good. It's DV that I'm most curious about.

[chros]

I dont care about SDR (I have a PJ) so it's fine for me as long as DV black levels are improved compared to my C8. It seems to be the case for the C2 according to the link (ttps://www.avforums.com/threads/lg-c2-oled-owners-and-discussion-thread.2406245/page-21#post-30365086) you shared on avsforum. Quite encouraging results.
Here's jk82's result (https://www.avsforum.com/goto/post?id=61671403), no DoVi report yet, HDR10 also seems to be fine.

I'll get to it this weekend. ... I can say in HDR, I don't see any black issues with a 1D LUT loaded (or without one, either for that matter) so that's good.
Thanks, the more results the better! Good point about the custom 1d/3dluts, those are also need to be checked along with PC mode presets, and elevated black :) Sorry, maybe it will last 1 hour :)

I can't believe jk82 got one....um....for now. :D That's awesome! The 2018 crowd strikes back! :D
:D Exactly what I said over there! :D

[SamuriHL]

Thanks, the more results the better! Good point about the custom 1d/3dluts, those are also need to be checked along with PC mode presets, and elevated black :) Sorry, maybe it will last 1 hour :)


I'll get back to PC mode at some point. I'm not using it at the moment not because there was any issue with it, simply trying to simplify things for now. So we'll set PC mode aside for now. Tonight I'll try to check on DV. Anecdotally after I calibrated it (manual 22pt grayscale, config upload) it looks spectacular to me. No 1D LUT for that, only for HDR so far. However, as I mentioned before, there was zero benefit to my calibration from doing a 1D LUT in HDR mode. 2pt manual is enough to track EOTF almost exact. A 22pt manual grayscale will likely be even better so I'll be getting to that at some point after I factory reset it.


:D Exactly what I said over there! :D

It's nice to see. The C8 is a fantastic little rig, but, this G2 buries it so far. LG has come a long way in 4 years. Even before it's fully broken in, it's really impressing me a lot. So, having the gang back together, as you put it (LOL), is a very good thing.

[quietvoid]

So I just did a manual Dolby Vision calibration using some custom files.
And uploaded a manually calculated config file (no iTPG!)

Apparently the config locks the white balance menu on the C8.

Now my post-cal grayscale seems a bit off. I wonder if it's because I'm no longer able to hit the config Tmax?
See result:
https://i.postimg.cc/zHF4knpy/Untitled.png (https://postimg.cc/zHF4knpy)

My config has Tmax = 695.4273, since I measured that early on.
Do I just reupload the config with a lower Tmax?

I'll probably try and edit my findings.

edit: So it doesn't seem to have made a significant difference. I guess there's just no point trying to verify post-cal.
Still wonder if I should leave it at 695 or 675 nits :D

For most tests I did I can't really tell a difference.
For some reason however, some Spears & Munsil shots look really bad in any other mode than Cinema (for which I uploaded the config).
No idea if it regressed or something? I never use the other modes.

It only happens in the internal player, not my external HDMI one. Shrug.

[SamuriHL]

So I did the black level test for dv. I used kodi nerds on the shield. I only tested on my calibrated cinema mode for g2 (default wp) and my non calibrated (sm wp d65) cinema mode on the c8. Unfortunately the g2 appears to have raised black in dv for my calibrated mode. Or my c8 is crushed. I'd believe either. I can't see 63 or 64 at all on the c8. On the g2 I can see 63 and just barely 64. And I do mean barely but it's visible. My understanding is 64 ain't supposed to be seen given that's black 0%. So that isn't awesome. I'll have to test again when I factory reset. They don't give us a lot of modes to play with in dv unfortunately.

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[SamuriHL]

The other modes suck, quietvoid. Only cinema is accurate at all.

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[quietvoid]

So I did the black level test for dv. I used kodi nerds on the shield. I only tested on my calibrated cinema mode for g2 (default wp) and my non calibrated (sm wp d65) cinema mode on the c8. Unfortunately the g2 appears to have raised black in dv for my calibrated mode.

Is the black floor raised only in your calibrated mode?
AFAIK any HDMI input is raised floor and crushed black on the C8.

Also if you're seeing 64 at all, it should be blended with the background if the whole black floor is raised.

[SamuriHL]

I didn't test any other mode. Just the calibrated one. It was blended but raised. I'll try again tomorrow night with the internal player on both the c8 and g2 and see what that looks like. It's possible the shield is doing something screwy.

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[chros]

So I just did a manual Dolby Vision calibration using some custom files.
So it doesn't seem to have made a significant difference. I guess there's just no point trying to verify post-cal.
Still wonder if I should leave it at 695 or 675 nits :D

For most tests I did I can't really tell a difference.
For some reason however, some Spears & Munsil shots look really bad in any other mode than Cinema (for which I uploaded the config).
No idea if it regressed or something? I never use the other modes.
I couldn't upload DoVi config, I tried once via USB but the TV didn't recognised it.
This is the factory results (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/2018-lg-oled-calibration-and-user-settings-no-price-talk.2962814/page-179#post-58739264) of all the DoVi presets on my B8 (not in calibration mode), after 20 patches (using black frame insertion in every 2nd frame), it's around 730 nits (same as the peak in non-PC mode HDR10 Cinema preset).
And yes, the problem with DoVi is that we don't have any other preset to compare the image to.

I didn't test any other mode. Just the calibrated one. It was blended but raised.
If you think it's raised with DoVi then try one of these to make it clear (it should result in true black):
- lower brightness from 50/100
- lower contrast from 100
- lower all the RGB values equally of the Low 2pt white balance setting (if it's still available after calibration)

[Kuler087]

Thanks for the test @SamuriHL but I wouldn't use the Nvidia shield to test anything related to DV. Do you have a bluray player or a firestick TV ?

[SamuriHL]

I have lots of different devices. Didn't really matter which I used. I interpreted the results wrong. That pattern, chros73, is a bit weird. I understand it now after looking at it more. I totally misread what it was showing last night.

As for device, shield is fine but I used the internal app off a USB stick tonight so no one could complain about my test this time.

Now that I know how to read the stupid thing the g2 is spot on for black in my calibrated dv mode. My c8, however, is severely crushed and nothing I did solved it. We're talking massively crushed where I could not see anything below 72. Increasing the oled didn't solve it. Increasing the brightness only made everything washed out but still couldn't see the flashing bars.

So yeah, awesome on the g2 as it was spot on but wtf with my c8. I may have to get creative with that damn thing. I can't really calibrate dv on that thing so this really sucks. I'm not investing in a dv capable external tpg. There is one possible option but it massively sucks. I may have to play with calman to get the damn thing fixed. The whole point of moving the c8 in the bedroom was for dv streaming so this isn't awesome right now. I realize the test was meant for the g2 but it's shown me just how f***ed my c8 is lol

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[chros]

Shiled is only fine with profile 5 DoVi, not with profile 7/8.1 (I replied to the rest on avs).

About the C8: yes, 72 is on our B8/C8 sets as well.
But the biggest issue is not this: but the elevated blacks on it!!! :D (workaround on avs, that didn't work on queitvoid's C8, but that will crush black more, it's 80 on my B8 with setting them to -1).
And you can't calibrate the black crush out, not even with a 1dlut! I tried, probably that's the fault of DoVi engine. The massive black glowing with 4.x fw could been reduced with 1dlut though, but it's better now with ootb 5.x, so I didn't touch it.

And the other big issue is the HDR10 cyan/magenta bt2020 3dlut processing issue :D (that you still forget :) )
Only SDR is fine :)

What do you think why I want to replace my TV? :D If only the B8 didn't have these issues, I'd never replace it until it dies :)