"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[RugRat]

no time just now, will play around with it on monday and let you know what i find.

[lithiumus]

It is the original hd audio, streams with no problem, but when i put it on to disk i get cinavia,

Wait a minute... are you streaming the full HD audio or just the core AC3 track?

[wswartzendruber]

We know this system is proven against DCT-based algorithms and cheap microphones. Has anyone tried a wavelet-based compression system to see if it stands up against that?

[setarip_old]

@wswartzendruber

Hi! Has anyone tried a wavelet-based compression system to see if it stands up against that?Is that something YOU can do?

[Eza17]

Hi, I noticed this thread and had a good read through after I had been caught out by this protection myself. I'm am certainly no expert at this but thought I would post some experiments I have carried out and some 'work-arounds'. All my experiments were carried out using a PS3.

1. Re-encode and speed up by 10%. My assumption here was that a 10% increase would not be too noticeable which actually it isn't - FAIL. The cinavia protection still kicked in.
2. Re-encode and slow down by 10%. Just thought I'd test the other way on and see if that worked - FAIL. The cinavia protection still kicked in.
3. Split the movie into 15 minute sections. I figured if the protection kicks in at 'around' 20 mins then watching 15 min chunks could bypass it - FAIL. The protection kicked in 5 mins into the second section.
4. Re-encode and slow down by 50% (bear with this one) - SUCCESS. This does bypass the cinavia protection but obviously 50% is noticeable. I tried this after someone reported that playing a movie at 1.5x speed got round the protection so I thought slow it down so it sounds ok when speeded up. Unfortunately this doesn't work so the watermark does appear to be based on a repeating pattern within a certain time.
5. A fix that worked for me on the PS3 is to tweak the sound settings in the following way: Go to settings > Sound Settings, select the optical option and place a tick against every possible output type. Set the option relating to sound from multiple sources to 'On'. For some reason, with these sound options set, the Cinavia watermark isn't picked up? I haven't got a clue why this is but perhaps someone else does.
6. Another workaround on a PS3 is as follows: Play the movie till the protection pops up, quit the movie and change the time back 1 hour. Resume playback and protection kicks in straight away, quit movie and change time back to current time. When you resume playback now you get another 20 mins.

I ran some other tests to determine in what time frame the watermark is stored. Basically I re-encoded several 1 minute movies with a repeating section of sound cut from a cinavia watermarked movie. I used a repeating section ranging from 1 second to 12 seconds, played a watermarked movie till cinavia kicked in after the usual 20ish minutes and then tried playing the series of 1 minute movies. Cinavia didn't kick in on the 1 or 2 second repeated sections, it did kick in on the 3 second repeated section after 25-35 seconds. On all the other sections from 4 to 12 it kicked in within 6-15 seconds. I can only assume from this that the cinavia watermark is completely held within 4 seconds. Hopefully this info will help anyone who knows more about audio files to figure out how it works.

p.s. I also tried turning an audio stream backwards, this makes no difference and Cinavia protection still kicks in.

[mike20021969]

I also tried turning an audio stream backwards, this makes no difference and Cinavia protection still kicks in.Maybe this indicates the inaudible watermark pattern is the same forwards as it is backwards.

[Eza17]

I think it indicates that it's a vertical pulse of some kind (don't know if that's a propper description for a sound file!) and this 'pulse' needs to be repeated 'x' times in a given time frame.

Another interesting point from my experiments was that when I split the movie into 15 minute sections, the first section took consistently longer to mute the sound than the other sections (after repeated tests once the initial 20min 'grace period' had been used). The first section has a silent start, proving that although the watermark is 'inaudible', it still needs some sound to be present.

I might try and find a 'relatively' inactive area in the movie with not much sound or a single continuous sound and try an opposite approach than normal, find the simplest sound file which still contains the watermark.

[b66pak]

5. A fix that worked for me on the PS3 is to tweak the sound settings in the following way: Go to settings > Sound Settings, select the optical option and place a tick against every possible output type. Set the option relating to sound from multiple sources to 'On'. For some reason, with these sound options set, the Cinavia watermark isn't picked up? I haven't got a clue why this is but perhaps someone else does.

this is not working for me!

my ps3 is pal slim 250gb retail hdd fw 3.41...

tested with h264 + aac stereo in mp4 from internal end external hdd...

what type of audio did you use? (codec, nr of channels, container, transcoded or original, what movie)? did you played from internal, external, disk, network? your ps3 config?
_

[Eza17]

this is not working for me!

my ps3 is pal slim 250gb retail hdd fw 3.41...

tested with h264 + aac stereo in mp4 from internal end external hdd...

what type of audio did you use? (codec, nr of channels, container, transcoded or original, what movie)? did you played from internal, external, disk, network? your ps3 config?
_

Hi, sorry I'll have to check all the details and post them later for you but the things I do know are:

Movie: Resident Evil Afterlife
PS3: Slim 120gb & Fat 80gb, both on firmware 3.55
Played from: External disk, connected by USB
Audio is through HDMI cable.

I'll check the other things later and post them.

[Eza17]

Hi, the audio details are as follows:

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 1h 36mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 502 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 516 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Rear: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Stream size : 348 MiB (16%)
Title : Resident Evil Afterlife
Language : English

[b66pak]

thanks a lot for the tip...now is working!
_

[Sharktooth]

can anyone try to encode to AAC-HEv2 with SBR and PS and see if the cinavia still kicks in?

[b66pak]

ps3 dont have support for this...
_

[Mug Funky]

ChiDragon's samples are different mixes.

there's time delays between different elements in the mix, also the dynamics are different (clearly visible on the final fadeout).

we need more samples like this though! it's useful.

the speed and/or phase seem to vary - i got clear comb-filter flanging patterns on the subtracted output, and the phase seemed to vary. it's hard to tell whether this is the mix or not.

one thing that seems possible - the cinavia version seemed to have some of its transients "doubled up", and some things appeared moved in time relative to each other, rather like a time-stretch based on time-domain splicing would do.

my 2 cents about the approach to take - we need to dissect the blu-ray authoring and mastering workflow to find out at what point it is introduced. my bet is on the encoder side, but it's possible there's a VST plugin and it happens in the sound-mix. we should search for products and white-papers or processes offered by the companies making these discs.

[ChiDragon]

The theatrical mark, at least, is added in mixing: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19401075#post19401075

[b66pak]

two new BDs join the party: "Takers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1135084/)" and "The Social Network (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1285016/)"...
_

[setarip_old]

According to DVDFab Passkey, "The Other Guys" Blu-ray, a SONY release, contains Cinavia protection...

(I wonder what Passkey reads in order to determine that?)

[SamuriHL]

According to DVDFab Passkey, "The Other Guys" Blu-ray, a SONY release, contains Cinavia protection...

(I wonder what Passkey reads in order to determine that?)

A database from what I understand. I forget where I saw it discussed, but, I don't believe it's scanning the disc for Cinavia if that's the implication you were making. I believe they're using a database of known Cinavia titles. But again, I can't quote a source on that.

[k-c-ksum]

Sony releases have the cinavia logo on the case cover.

[SamuriHL]

Sony releases have the cinavia logo on the case cover.

Sure, but, DVDFab PassKey isn't looking at the cover to know that. :D Maybe that's how they're creating an internal database of titles so that when you insert one it knows.

[fengtao]

Dear all,

Yes, our interest on Cinavia firstly led to building of this page (http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?p=46933#post46933). Then we thought to add the information to our database so the DVDFab and Passkey can use it to notify our users of Cinavia watermaked discs.

The page and our database are updated all the time to the best of our knowledge; our sources of information range from user feedback on our forum and various av forums to the testing with actual discs, of course these have different level of trust, so we think that so far our information is very much correct.

For instance, we've noticed that, for current Cinavia discs, only the English track was watermarked.

As for how it works, we do scan the discs for certain identification elements then compare to our db. Anyway, we're working on an automatic detector.

Best Regards,
Fengtao

[SamuriHL]

Thanks for the clarification, Fengtao!

[fengtao]

You are welcome :)

[setarip_old]

@fengtao

Thank you for answering my question about Passkey ;>}

[Ghitulescu]

Yes, our interest on Cinavia firstly led to building of this page (http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?p=46933#post46933). Then we thought to add the information to our database so the DVDFab and Passkey can use it to notify our users of Cinavia watermaked discs.


Just wondering, as many people around have and use multimedia players, would it be possible to add those, too? While most of them if not all do not have cinavia on-board, a sales representative said they will slip cinavia in with a new firmware if required, without noticing the users (because of NDA agreements).

[xenex]

Just wondering, as many people around have and use multimedia players, would it be possible to add those, too? While most of them if not all do not have cinavia on-board, a sales representative said they will slip cinavia in with a new firmware if required, without noticing the users (because of NDA agreements).

It's been said before, but unless said multimedia player manufacturer(s) include an actual Blu-Ray drive and are legally bound to include Cinavia detection (by AACS license), why would they do it?

It would cost them more in hardware costs, it would anger their customers, and would of course lead to poorer sales. Seems like a bad business decision all around.

[Ghitulescu]

It's been said before, but unless said multimedia player manufacturer(s) include an actual Blu-Ray drive and are legally bound to include Cinavia detection (by AACS license), why would they do it?

It would cost them more in hardware costs, it would anger their customers, and would of course lead to poorer sales. Seems like a bad business decision all around.

Why do the BD player manufacturers include cinavia, then? It would also lead to angry people, poor sales.... As I said before, cinavia would be silently slipped in, and before the info spread out, many users would be "infected".


The reason is that in order to play BD files, one needs licences for codecs and logos and stuff, and these come with these requirements, or legal suit threatenings. That's even more dangerous to their business, it would mean OUT.

[xenex]

Read what I said.

Why do the BD player manufacturers include cinavia, then? It would also lead to angry people, poor sales.... As I said before, cinavia would be silently slipped in, and before the info spread out, many users would be "infected".

Blu-Ray-Player-Hersteller sind gesetzlich verpflichtet, den AACS-Lizenz folgen. So müssen sie beinhalten Cinavia Erkennung, wie es jetzt ist Bestandteil der Lizenz.

Blu-Ray player manufacturers are legally bound to follow the AACS license. Thus, they must include Cinavia detection, as it is now part of the license.

It was stated earlier in this thread.

Media players which do not include a Blu-Ray drive, and are not signers of that AACS license have no need to add Cinavia detection. And I guarantee they won't. Do you really think media player manufacturers are going to increase their hardware costs and anger their customers - despite no legal obligation - because they just love Hollywood and its DRM measures?

It's not a big "Cinavia" conspiracy. You just have to think about it from a business/profit-making perspective.

[Ghitulescu]

As I said before: don't forget the other licences. Imagine everyone would buy/use AnyDVD/dvdfab/etc. to copy BDs and play them unrestricted on "free" gear, even worse, send the files through internet and anyone can watch them for free. To quote you: "think it from profit-making perspective" why let this happen? The solution was invented 20 years ago, all devices must obey some rules (at the time called SCMS, CPRM etc.).

And cinavia is nothing else than the confirmation that other protections failed. So, control the gear.

[GodofaGap]

On the other hand, if those Media Player manufacturers do give in to these kind of schemes they practically commit suicide, because they exist by the grace that people can copy (or pirate) media.

[Ghitulescu]

Not necessarily, otherwise they won't be allowed by the law to sell these things, there are plenty of legal sources, like camcorder files, or videos from cellphones, cameras etc. Then there are the old backups, when the law allowed them. And last but not least, online videos, like youtube (it's also illegal to download videos or to use them outside their player) and so on.

I said long time ago, there's a limit of acceptance for piracy, because "piracy" is what drives the sales. A non-copyable (and/or proprietary and/or closed) format would eventually die.

[GodofaGap]

Not necessarily, otherwise they won't be allowed by the law to sell these things, there are plenty of legal sources, like camcorder files, or videos from cellphones, cameras etc. Then there are the old backups, when the law allowed them. And last but not least, online videos, like youtube (it's also illegal to download videos or to use them outside their player) and so on.
The problem of the things you mention is that you don't have to look very hard to get all those things working on a regular Blu-Ray player right now anyway. And I think you overestimate the importance of homemade files in this.

The only advantage these Media Players have is that they play "anything", and if they stop doing that, they're dead.

[Ghitulescu]

The question is not whether they'll have or not some/less/more customers, but whether the manufacturers comply or not with the requirements of the law. Remember that Betamax (and then VHS) went into mass production only after a trial, won by Sony against MPAA, I hope I'm not mistaken, I'm not Ami. However, Sony avoided the next trial by just implementing SCMS in their DAT recorders. Now Sony is on the other (wrong ;)) side of the barricade, and you see the trend, I think ;)

[GodofaGap]

The question is not whether they'll have or not some/less/more customers, but whether the manufacturers comply or not with the requirements of the law.
If the Cinavia requirement is a part of the AACS license then for now there is nothing to worry about as they are not bound to it. The only way manufacturers can get into trouble is if Cinavia is some general requirement put on all audio related devices, and things haven't gotten so far yet.

[xenex]

Thanks, GodofaGap

It's what I have been TRYING to tell Ghitulescu. There is no "law" - anywhere - requiring Cinavia. The ONLY devices that require Cinavia detection are Blu-Ray players that are assignees to the AACS license agreement.

And they are legally bound to include it - not by law - but by contractual agreement that they were required to sign and agree to by the terms of the AACS license in order to make licensed Blu-Ray players.

The various media-players which do not include Blu-Ray drives, but only play media, MP3, VC1, AC3,, etc are NOT BOUND to include Cinavia detection. The AACS license requires it, the codecs are free to use.

[Ghitulescu]

There's no law requiring SCMS either. There's no law requiring AACS at all.

It's all licensing. If one chooses not to licence (and to obey its requirements) it would be brought to justice, at it provides ways of stealing content protected by intellectual property (accessory to crime).

The codecs are not always free to use. All MPEG codecs are property of MPEG-LA, except for MP3 which half belongs to Frauenhofer, VC-1 is the property of Microsoft, AC-3 of Dolby labs, DTS of DTS and so on. That one can use them more or less free, doesn't imply that they are freeware. of course, it also depends whether the country one resides allows or not software patenting.

[xenex]

So why do you think media players, not bound by AACS licensing would include Cinavia detection?

[GodofaGap]

It's all licensing. If one chooses not to licence (and to obey its requirements) it would be brought to justice, at it provides ways of stealing content protected by intellectual property (accessory to crime).
But even in court it would be pretty hard to hold manufacturers to a license for a medium they are not supporting with their device. You can't copy blurays with a device that doesn't allow to insert bluray discs.

[Ghitulescu]

So why do you think media players, not bound by AACS licensing would include Cinavia detection?

I quoted (freely, not to disclose his identity) a statement from one of the manufacturers.

It's not tied to AACS, but the manufacturer may not receive the licences for other items he badly needs, unless he agrees upon cinavia. In the end, cinavia does not affect the playback of own media, just the playback of copied content. Fair enough, no harm done. ;) Even more fair than SCMS, as all the manufacturers still place a CopyOnce even for your own recordings.

[setarip_old]

I started this thread for the purpose of discussing the technical aspects of "Cinavia" and not the possible legal ramifications, when I said: It will be interesting to see what others may discover when they test their backups of the legitimate commercial BluRay on more current equipment.

Therefore, I'd appreciate it if we could stay on topic in this thread - and perhaps start a separate thread regarding speculated upon legalities...

[dansrfe]

As far as I understand, I think someone should be trying to make a modified firmware for BD players and PS3's which removes Cinavia detection and then plays the audio back without any problems. I am currently working on reverse-engineering the PS3 firmware for removal of Cinavia but lets see where this goes...

[coolalibaba]

can not agree more.
I started this thread for the purpose of discussing the technical aspects of "Cinavia" and not the possible legal ramifications, when I said:

Therefore, I'd appreciate it if we could stay on topic in this thread - and perhaps start a separate thread regarding speculated upon legalities...

[Sharktooth]

ps3 dont have support for this...
_
i meant converting to AAC HEv2 SBR+PS and then re-convert to AC3 or whatever the PS3 supports.

[Ghitulescu]

As far as I understand, I think someone should be trying to make a modified firmware for BD players and PS3's which removes Cinavia detection and then plays the audio back without any problems. I am currently working on reverse-engineering the PS3 firmware for removal of Cinavia but lets see where this goes...

Of course I would appreciate your work, despite I don't own, nor ever owned or will ever own, a PS3.

I just wonder whether won't be better if one simply resists upgrading. I know there's this craze, to update the FW to the latest stand, whether needed or not (which is also aggressively promoted throw all possible channels, including testing articles and various magazines). All repairing centers are also required to update the sent-for-repair devices to the latest stand. I also happen to notice during the past years that, with very few exceptions, there's always a bitter pill-sweet pill issue: in other words, a long-felt-and-advertised-feature (eg DTS MA decoding) is silently coupled with a consumer-fiendish one (like eg cinavia), and the latter is usually coupled with the impossibility to return to a previous state (downgrading is blocked). In my experience, this last item is the best indicator that something bad was done to your gear.

[b66pak]

ps3 is a primary a gaming device and secondary a multimedia player...so in order to play the latest games upgrading to the last fw in mandatory!
_

[SamuriHL]

ps3 is a primary a gaming device and secondary a multimedia player...so in order to play the latest games upgrading to the last fw in mandatory!
_

Not just gaming, but, doing anything online with it requires the latest firmware. That's how they pretty much force all of us to update. sigh.

[Wilbert]

Guys, please stay on topic.

[setarip_old]

Click on the following link:

http://forum.digital-digest.com/showpost.php?p=587581&postcount=1

Apparently a tiny change in code makes a world of difference!

a randomized variable was made a constant instead, the hack means that any code can now be signed to made to look like officially sanctioned code, and there's not a thing Sony can do about it.

In other words, the PS3 can no longer tell legal, authorized software apart from pirated ones that have been signed using the leaked key.If I'm interpreting its potential correctly, if the hackers who came up with this are not overly greedy (as are, apparently, the creators of "PSJailbreak device"), I believe this could send the Cinavia folks back to the drawing board...

Somewhat reminiscent of applying a marking pen to Track 0 of SONY music CDs ;>}

[SamuriHL]

I'm not sure exactly how you're drawing that conclusion from the announcement that code signing is broken? :confused: What does that have to do with Cinavia detection?

[Morbo]

Is there a hardware list to test against?...
Some have said WDTV and maybe Seagate's version are possibly in there...but..

Chinese BR players,.may...like early Apex and other DVD players,possibly disable it to get "pirates" in on sales.

I just see no way to unencode this crap...

What would be great,..would be to find a way to
emulate the codes and bury it in the MKV or whatever
streams and fool the HW.

"Insert the A-Team song here"