"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[rotty]

There is NO bd-rec content that should have the Cinavia signal from a *commercial blu-ray*. Therefore, it does not fit the definition of a trusted source and the detection algorithm was changed to reflect that.

Thanks Samuri, I thought that I remebered that it was no longer a viable way to circumvent the watermark.

I seem to remeber that at the time, even when it was working we all thought that is was foolish to rely on that as an answer.

[SamuriHL]

Well, some insisted the loophole could never be closed, but, as many of us thought, it could and was. As I said, Cinavia message 3 signals belong on BD ROM commercial discs only.

[Chetwood]

Like Samuri says, the best way round it is to leave it there and dont worry about it, if the playback system you are using dosent care if the watermark is there then who cares.
IF. Maybe it will later and you're screwed and it would have been better to boycott any Cinavia-infected content all along.

As a general rule I don't see DRM being added to a device unless doing so benefits the manufacturer of the device or there's a law mandating it
Or the content owner mandates it which is why Netflix uses Silverlight for example. I think you're being overly optimistic when it comes to ways for the content owners to force their terms on hardware manufacturers.

[rotty]

IF. Maybe it will later and you're screwed and it would have been better to boycott any Cinavia-infected content all along.

Well your right, I did say a while back, we get what we deserve.

If we buy this crap then we cant moan or winge.
I was shouted down by most who said it wasnt possible to boycott it.

Out of the 2 possible answers, yes or no, re "will the PC be affected by all this in the future", I sure dont know, but I would have thought yes is the more likely answer unfortunatley.

[SeeMoreDigital]

IF. Maybe it will later and you're screwed and it would have been better to boycott any Cinavia-infected content all along.
I agree... Sony's use of Cinavia offers us all an excellent reason why none should buy any hardware or software products manufactured by Sony or their affiliates.

Thankfully all Blu-ray and DVD titles sold within the EU that contain Cinavia have to include the Cinavia logo: -

http://i48.tinypic.com/2itlnrt.jpg

EDIT: Sufficed to say, if Cinavia (or a version of it) starts turning up on Sony (or their affiliates) audio CD's, I will be very annoyed...

Cheers

[Ghitulescu]

It's not about proving something to people in a big hurry but about having any proof to support your claims at all.
The biggest problem I see in that the large public is not informed. They don't see the danger until it's too late. And when it's too late then it's too late to do anything.
Who's gonna give a damn on protections for games when CloneCd was around?, laughed the "self-called hackers". The wave of cries and lamentations in the ripping games arena surpassed the Japans' tsunami, when CloneCd was forced to disappear then to reappear months later under a different name and owner in some fiscal paradise.
Who's gonna give a damn on CD-audio protections? EAC was forced to remove one beloved feature, and people had to resort to Alcohol. The situation went back to normal, because Philips threatened the studios that they will lose their licence should they continue to sell "damaged" CDs. I don't think I've seen a protected CD since 2004.
Who's gonna give a damn on DVD protections?, laughed other "self-called hackers". Let's see them how big hackers are, if both AnyDVD and DVDfab will be forced to disappear. FixVTS has been sued by Sony and disappeared. So what said the same "hackers". Let's download it from the net. What happens if those sites are shut down (as that of DVDshrink)? Let's find it somewhere else. What if the net is filtered? How about the IP reform? There have been plenty of "normal" addresses, in particular when millions of them are stupidly wasted on private numbers. What happens when the "black guys" knock on your door and finds you with a illegal software?
How would Cinavia stop a PC from ripping a disc even if ultimately it stopped you from using the PC to play it?
That says a lot about what your understanding of cinavia. Cinavia doesn't impede the copying, just the playback. Cinavia is perfect legal, and thus it's hard to fight legally against it.

And speaking of hurry, cinavia uses the same idea as the CopyCode. CopyCode failed some 20 years ago. After 20 years, the same thing happens again. And should cinavia fail today it will come another scheme, not tomorrow, but in years.
And the question as to why the PC industry would agree to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to a third party company for the privilege of including protection for someone else's content still remains unanswered.
You missed the point again, but this seems to be your limits. As soon as only 3-10 chipmakers manufacture HD-audio ICs, that are used also in the entertainment devices, the cinavia (or the equivalent scheme) that is included there can also be activated here. At no costs, and even not forcibly. There is no alternative. When Microsoft introduced HAL, they had the perfect roadmap in front of them. When they introduced PC98 they laid out another step. When Intel introduced Trusted Computing, they already had passed a hurdle, the PIII serial number, which was heavily challenged that Intel even provided a way to deactivate it, however all the new CPUs from them had it hardware enabled. Did anyone cried? Not that I remember.
And why just the PC? Has the world seen the light and it's now the most popular player used to view video in the home, making it reasonable to ignore the countless other types of media players in use?
Firstly, because it's the most ubiquitous computing platform.
Secondly, because Jobs did the same on his Apples, just different.
Thirdly, the other mediaplayers will become obsolete the next day after a change in standards (when I bought my popcorn, there have been already millions of mediaplayers sold all over the world, yet only two models at that date could also output HD-audio, most of them could only output Dolby, and even many more have been restricted to SDTV DivX only). See what people do - half of this forum is occupied with recoding from one format into another one, repeating this job each time a new gadget appears - they will tire one day, and that will be their end point.
As a general rule I don't see DRM being added to a device unless doing so benefits the manufacturer of the device or there's a law mandating it,
It would be more costly to them to develop and manufacture themselves the non-cinavied audio chips. See it as an advantage.
and given the laws in other countries tend to differ from those in the US in regard to copyright and fair use (I'd still like to know which countries have a law forbidding individuals from purchasing rental DVDs), that poses another obstacle.
It doesn't forbid that the consumers buy rental copies, just that the use is restricted. One is for personal use, the other one is for making money out of it.
The laws haven't changed lately, yet the legal actions and/or consequences became more evident, things that one could though they have been free to do (falsely of course) are now punishable and the impact more severe. As ACTA showed to those that really understood what was behind, the same laws will become universally valid all over the globe.

See Willis vs Apple and you'll probably understand.
eBay refuses to list used recorded media (CDRs, audio and video cassettes etc). Thrift stores do the same thing. The laws haven't change since the '80ies in this respect. Why now? Smile, tomorrow it will be worse :)

I wrote these not for you, as usual I think you'll still miss the point, but as a written statement of what the future will bring us. So don't be in such a hurry, I am still young, you're probably the same, so let's see what happens in 20 years from now on.

[maksa]

This forum is about DECRYPTING, not a History Channel. I am not young and don't have 20 years to wait for the World to become bleak image of things before, full of I-crap and DRM. As a matter of fact, even now is much different than when I was younger. All the people smoked in the movies (and in normal life), there were no blurring of the images, logos, faces so that movie companies don't get sued, 3 year old babies could go to the beach naked !!!, children actually palyed outside!!!, people didn't lock the doors and there was no CNN (imagine the freedom).

Saying that, I'd like to see Cinavia defeated, not because of fair use, but because it is there (Sir Edmund Hillary said the same thing when asked why did he climbed Mount Everest). I just don't like being patronized by the State or Big Corporations, like I have no brains, and this is one way of doing it.

I am taking to read all 1700 over posts, collect data on Cinavia and start a new thread that is purely technical. You guys can continue discussing what will be (que sera, sera) but life is too short.
Cheers,
Maksa

[SamuriHL]

The prevailing theory I've seen on the Cinavia signal suggests that it's a series of small echoes that represent each type of signal (message 1, 2, 3, 4, etc) and that they seem to be able to encode information into that signal. Finding the echos has been a big challenge. Removing them without destroying the audio is the bigger challenge.

[hello_hello]

Or the content owner mandates it which is why Netflix uses Silverlight for example. I think you're being overly optimistic when it comes to ways for the content owners to force their terms on hardware manufacturers.

They can mandate to their heart's content but if the hardware manufacturer doesn't buy their content it doesn't effect them. Unless PCs started shipping with studio release movies recently and I haven't noticed.
If you have an example of how content owners could force PC manufacturers to include their copy protection in PC hardware while paying for the privilege though I'd be happy to hear it.

[hello_hello]

The biggest problem I see in that the large public is not informed. They don't see the danger until it's too late. And when it's too late then it's too late to do anything.

Actually the biggest problem is that it doesn't in any way explain how or why PC manufacturers would start including Cinavia in their hardware. It's just scaremongering to support unsubstantiated speculation.

Who's gonna give a damn on protections for games when CloneCd was around?, laughed the "self-called hackers". The wave of cries and lamentations in the ripping games arena surpassed the Japans' tsunami, when CloneCd was forced to disappear then to reappear months later under a different name and owner in some fiscal paradise.
Who's gonna give a damn on CD-audio protections? EAC was forced to remove one beloved feature, and people had to resort to Alcohol. The situation went back to normal, because Philips threatened the studios that they will lose their licence should they continue to sell "damaged" CDs. I don't think I've seen a protected CD since 2004.

Aside from the usual high degree of "nothing to do with the topic", which side are of the debate are you arguing there?

Who's gonna give a damn on DVD protections?, laughed other "self-called hackers".....

Still nothing to do with the topic, so I've no idea what the point is you're tying to avoid making.

That says a lot about what your understanding of cinavia. Cinavia doesn't impede the copying, just the playback. Cinavia is perfect legal, and thus it's hard to fight legally against it.

It says more about your understanding of what you read. That was exactly my point. Your unfounded "Cinavia coming to PC hardware near you" speculation doesn't explain how it'd achieve anything aside from forcing you to use another device for playback after you've ripped the disc with a PC.

And speaking of hurry, cinavia uses the same idea as the CopyCode. CopyCode failed some 20 years ago. After 20 years, the same thing happens again. And should cinavia fail today it will come another scheme, not tomorrow, but in years.

Speaking of repeating something which still has no relevance to the topic....

You missed the point again, but this seems to be your limits. As soon as only 3-10 chipmakers manufacture HD-audio ICs, that are used also in the entertainment devices, the cinavia (or the equivalent scheme) that is included there can also be activated here. At no costs, and even not forcibly. There is no alternative. When Microsoft introduced HAL, they had the perfect roadmap in front of them. When they introduced PC98 they laid out another step. When Intel introduced Trusted Computing, they already had passed a hurdle, the PIII serial number, which was heavily challenged that Intel even provided a way to deactivate it, however all the new CPUs from them had it hardware enabled. Did anyone cried? Not that I remember.

I didn't miss the point. However it appears I did fail to foresee the further unsubstantiated speculation which would follow. The same questions apply. No doubt the same questions will remain ignored. Why would IC manufacturers include Cinavia to protect someone else's content and potentially adversely effect sales while paying for the privilege? Who's going to be the first to do so while everyone buys someone else's chips? Which IC manufacturing consortium is pushing for the compulsory inclusion of Cinavia in chips? The only reason Cinavia is compulsory in Bluray players is because the entertainment industry had a vested interest in it and also effectively controlled the licensing of players. Do you actually think for a second if they didn't, there'd be more than a tiny percentage of players which include Cinavia? How do they make Cinavia compulsory for other manufacturers?
And once again I fail to see how a rant on Trusted Computing and revised roadmaps etc. supports your claim Cinavia will one day be included in PCs? Maybe if you could explain how it does?

Firstly, because it's the most ubiquitous computing platform.
Secondly, because Jobs did the same on his Apples, just different.
Thirdly, the other mediaplayers will become obsolete the next day after a change in standards (when I bought my popcorn, there have been already millions of mediaplayers sold all over the world, yet only two models at that date could also output HD-audio, most of them could only output Dolby, and even many more have been restricted to SDTV DivX only). See what people do - half of this forum is occupied with recoding from one format into another one, repeating this job each time a new gadget appears - they will tire one day, and that will be their end point.

Firstly, "ubiquitous" proves nothing, and secondly whatever Apple did is irrelevant because they can do whatever they like. We're talking about Cinavia in PCs.
Thirdly, the longevity of media players is completely irrelevant to the topic, as is your further speculation regarding how often people re-encode their media. It's got no more to do with the topic than than number of people who re-purchase movies every time they're re-released on the latest and greatest industry standard format.

It would be more costly to them to develop and manufacture themselves the non-cinavied audio chips. See it as an advantage.

Only when based on your premise Cinavia will soon be included in all currently manufactured chips, which I completely reject.

It doesn't forbid that the consumers buy rental copies, just that the use is restricted. One is for personal use, the other one is for making money out of it.
The laws haven't changed lately, yet the legal actions and/or consequences became more evident, things that one could though they have been free to do (falsely of course) are now punishable and the impact more severe. As ACTA showed to those that really understood what was behind, the same laws will become universally valid all over the globe.

Give me an example of where rental companies have an agreement with content providers not to sell the discs. Anywhere. Pick a country.
Offering generalisation regarding laws is meaningless unless you can give me an example of such a law. Pick a country. Anywhere. Where is it illegal for individuals to purchase ex-rental DVDs from rental companies? Instead of answering the question, you're just continuing to make stuff up.

See Willis vs Apple and you'll probably understand.
eBay refuses to list used recorded media (CDRs, audio and video cassettes etc). Thrift stores do the same thing. The laws haven't change since the '80ies in this respect. Why now? Smile, tomorrow it will be worse :)

Not only was the majority of your post a combination of fact avoiding red herrings, now you're not even confining them to reality.
Willis vs Apple is pure fiction. I guess the art of stating unsubstantiated speculation as fact isn't confined to a user or two per internet forum.
And of course eBay let you list used original recorded media. It's pure nonsense to claim otherwise. As do thrift stores.

I wrote these not for you, as usual I think you'll still miss the point, but as a written statement of what the future will bring us. So don't be in such a hurry, I am still young, you're probably the same, so let's see what happens in 20 years from now on.

I didn't miss the point. When it comes to the topic of whether Cinavia will soon be included in PCs, the only "as usual" was your failure to offer any actual facts which support your claim.

[Guest]

Last warning to stay on topic. Strikes will follow.

This thread is for technical discussion of Cinavia.

[rotty]

I agree... Sony's use of Cinavia offers us all an excellent reason why none should buy any hardware or software products manufactured by Sony or their affiliates.

Thankfully all Blu-ray and DVD titles sold within the EU that contain Cinavia have to include the Cinavia logo: -

Cheers

Just a quickie, The UK looks like it may well loose HMV stores due to a number of issues including of course on-line competition and on-line streaming.

Now, if I go into a store I can hold the disk and look at the back and see that abomination of a logo for Cinavia.

If I shop on-line, say Amazon, I cant.

I think that inline with EU rules re showing the logo, on-line sellers should be made to also show us this info.
OR
perhaps the logo should be on the front so the image we see on-line shows the logo.

I think we have the right to know if our audio has been deliberately tampered with.

[Guest]

Let me try to be clearer.

The thread is for discussion of Cinavia, not for discussion of whether you can buy rental DVDs, and other assorted OT topics. It is also not for our usual suspects to have flame wars and pissing contests.

If you post about Cinavia and without ad hominems, there will be no problems. If you post OT discussions or inflammatory ad hominem material, then there will be problems.

Please also note, do not respond here to discuss this moderation policy. I will be happy to discuss it in PM with anybody.

[diogen]

If this takes off (don't know the challenges) all the fancy Cinavia-type DRM methods will fade away
http://www.digital-digest.com/news-63565-Sonys-RFID-Based-DRM-Could-Be-Used-To-Stop-Second-Hand-Games-Trade.html

Claimed to be for the PS games. Why no use them in BDs? No RFID - no playback.

I don't think hardware hacking is anywhere close even in theory to tackle this...

Diogen.

[Ghitulescu]

I am taking to read all 1700 over posts, collect data on Cinavia and start a new thread that is purely technical. You guys can continue discussing what will be (que sera, sera) but life is too short.

The short version is to search for their patents (verance) in google (since some time google allows searching in patents), there are only a few dozen. Relevant were at the time of the old postings only some 7 of them.

However, cinavia is about recognition, not about preventing the copying. That means the device needs not to be too complex (like eg decoding blurays), but safe enough to recognize 100% the positive and to reject the false positive alarms (not that the studios would care about).

Removing the cinavia from the audio (that a cinavied device would not trigger the detection) is two-folded - first one has to identify exactly what was added (there are several algorithms, and cinavia allows combinations of them), the second step is to remove it. To use a video comparison to audio, removing cinavia would be like a delogo: the result can be any from a black rectangle to unseen marks.

PS: just for clarification, the patents do not enforce a solution into practice. They lay the generic algorithms, which are then used by the design team to find the best working conditions, which may differ from what was initially written there.

[diogen]

I was shouted down by most who said it wasnt possible to boycott it.Do you believe it is?
Do you think a boycott campaign has a chance to make a difference in this particular case?

This isn't SOPA/PIPA in legislative stages.
This is a technical measure implemented and used for years (on a low scale).
Every studio's decision to implement it (or not) with a certain title can be driven by many factors.
But NOT by your threat of boycott!
Out of the 2 possible answers, yes or no, re "will the PC be affected by all this in the future", I sure dont know, but I would have thought yes is the more likely answer unfortunatley.What is the PC of the future?
Today even Raspberry Pi can play (some) BD rips.
Do you believe a time will come when Intel, AMD, ARM and its army of licensees,
VIA, Realtek, Sigma Designs, etc. will all decide to support Cinavia in hardware?

I will sooner believe you will succeed in your call for boycott and will make a difference...:sly:

I see the Cinavia tackling activity as sport. Very interesting.
And just like solving the Fermat Theorem, zero effect on real life...

Diogen.

[rotty]

Do you believe it is?
Do you think a boycott campaign has a chance to make a difference in this particular case?

This isn't SOPA/PIPA in legislative stages.
This is a technical measure implemented and used for years (on a low scale).
Every studio's decision to implement it (or not) with a certain title can be driven by many factors.
But NOT by your threat of boycott!
What is the PC of the future?
Today even Raspberry Pi can play (some) BD rips.
Do you believe a time will come when Intel, AMD, ARM and its army of licensees,
VIA, Realtek, Sigma Designs, etc. will all decide to support Cinavia in hardware?

I will sooner believe you will succeed in your call for boycott and will make a difference...:sly:

I see the Cinavia tackling activity as sport. Very interesting.
And just like solving the Fermat Theorem, zero effect on real life...

Diogen.

The PC, again I agree, what will the PC of the future be, who knows.
Smart TV's are basically a PC in your TV.
More and more devices like this, Im sure that these will become more and more powerfull.
The PC as a seperate item may not exist/may not be needed.
I cannot look into the future any more than anyone else.

When I said "will the PC be affected by all this in the future", I wasnt taking of Cinavia a such, any control of what we can and cant playback I meant.
Simply if I had to pick out of YES or NO re us being controlled in what and how we can playback media, then I would go more on the side of YES.
Its just an opinion, just like your opinion is the opposite.

As for boycott, thats purley a personal choice, if you want to NOT buy watermarked media then do that. Bit late for all that now even if it could work.

[milkybar1983]

I know its been mentioned before but I think a good lead would be to reverse engineer the PS3 files that detect it. There is already a disabler for custom firmwares:

http://rebug.me/disable-cinavia-installer-3-41-3-55/

Disable Cinavia Installer for 3.41 and 3.55 CFW/MFW will permanently install the necessary ‘Cinavia Free’ video modules (excluding AVCHD/Blu-ray) to your PS3.

This has been a feature of the REBUG firmware from the start but since there seems to be a lot of interest by users of other CFW/MFW we thought we would make an easy installer for everyone.

USAGE:

Install Disable_Cinavia_3xx.pkg

Run Disable Cinavia Installer (3.xx) from [Game] menu in XMB

PS3 will reboot

Enjoy

~ Codename: REBUG

[setarip_old]

@milkybar1983

Hi! excluding AVCHD/Blu-rayI'd say that's a pretty BIG exclusion!

[milkybar1983]

@milkybar1983

Hi! I'd say that's a pretty BIG exclusion!

yes true but they have still managed to patch the detection on MKVs which is a start

[SamuriHL]

But you can't extract any generic Cinavia lessons here. They simply patched it so it doesn't call the Cinavia detection routines. That doesn't mean anything other than they attacked one player. And only to bypass the detection.

[Ghitulescu]

Disable Cinavia Installer for 3.41 and 3.55 CFW/MFW will permanently install the necessary ‘Cinavia Free’ video modules (excluding AVCHD/Blu-ray) to your PS3.Hi! I'd say that's a pretty BIG exclusion
yes true but they have still managed to patch the detection on MKVs which is a start
But you can't extract any generic Cinavia lessons here. They simply patched it so it doesn't call the Cinavia detection routines. That doesn't mean anything other than they attacked one player. And only to bypass the detection.
It is a step that shows that on generic CPUs, like Sony's Cell proc, cinavia can be disabled, because it is done in software (PS3 is a game console not a BDplayer). Probably they would manage eventually to bypass the routines also for AVCHD/BD, although I think that they did not do this because disabling cinavia on products where cinavia is mandatory might result in civil and/or criminal trials.

It doesn't solve the issue other players have, that are based on HW chips like Sigma Design or Realtek. And these start to be a majority on the market and at homes. PS3 was a hit because for an amount of money inferior to any BDplayer on the market at that date, a family father could buy a BDplayer (for him) and a game console (for the kids, and/or him, too :)). But it also causes conflicts of interest, and today, when the players are priced way below a PS3, it simply doesn't pay to buy a PS3 for BDs anymore.

[xenex]

It doesn't matter if Cinavia 'detection' is implemented using software, or a dedicated chip.

Cinavia 'activation' is ALWAYS implemented in software. In the case of the PC, it is player software that is downloaded and installed, such as the newer PowerDVD, TMT, and etc. In the case of the PS3 or standalone BDplayers, it is via firmware update - which is, of course, still software. The only practical difference is that on a PS3 or standalone, that software is "flashed" or saved on a chip and difficult to get to or modify. On a PC, the software is stored on the hard drive, so modification could (in theory) be much easier.

That's not to say it would be easy to disable it in either case. With asymmetric key cryptography (used correctly) both cases would be very difficult to reverse engineer or modify. But neither is impossible.

I really agree with SamuriHL on this, and I use only non-licensed players like VLC and such. But I completely expect to see the PC software based players to have "cinavia-disable" patches soon. And I would not be terribly surprised to see "cinavia-disable" firmware updates for standalone players further in the future.

I don't really see SlySoft or anyone else extracting the audio, removing the watermark, and re-encoding it. To me, that does not seem practical. But hey, it is my opinion and my guess. I think patching the players may happen.

Anything that can be "added" by a new software version or a new firmware can be removed as well. Not saying it would be easy, but certainly possible.

[milkybar1983]

dvdfab media player already plays them with menus and does not have cinavia detection

[rotty]

It doesn't matter if Cinavia 'detection' is implemented using software, or a dedicated chip.

Cinavia 'activation' is ALWAYS implemented in software. In the case of the PC, it is player software that is downloaded and installed, such as the newer PowerDVD, TMT, and etc. In the case of the PS3 or standalone BDplayers, it is via firmware update - which is, of course, still software. The only practical difference is that on a PS3 or standalone, that software is "flashed" or saved on a chip and difficult to get to or modify. On a PC, the software is stored on the hard drive, so modification could (in theory) be much easier.

That's not to say it would be easy to disable it in either case. With asymmetric key cryptography (used correctly) both cases would be very difficult to reverse engineer or modify. But neither is impossible.

I really agree with SamuriHL on this, and I use only non-licensed players like VLC and such. But I completely expect to see the PC software based players to have "cinavia-disable" patches soon. And I would not be terribly surprised to see "cinavia-disable" firmware updates for standalone players further in the future.

I don't really see SlySoft or anyone else extracting the audio, removing the watermark, and re-encoding it. To me, that does not seem practical. But hey, it is my opinion and my guess. I think patching the players may happen.

Anything that can be "added" by a new software version or a new firmware can be removed as well. Not saying it would be easy, but certainly possible.

I hope your right re firmware that disables Cinavia option and patches for S/W players, that would be good news.

Also, re removal, I agree totally with you.

The only fly in the ointment for stand alone players I could see is that the players that are out at the moment were probably manufactured/designed well before the Cinavia switch on time and therefore Cinavia enablement was via software.
It was in their interest to have it disabled as long as possible because people were clambering for the players that were in this mode.
At a later date, the Manufacturers could comply with the license simply with a firmware update.

Could it be that the next batch of stand alone players will have it hard wired "ON", after all there is no reason to have it switchable (in their eyes) and why have the vulnerability of s/w when you don’t need it.

[Ghitulescu]

It doesn't matter if Cinavia 'detection' is implemented using software, or a dedicated chip.

Cinavia 'activation' is ALWAYS implemented in software. In the case of the PC, it is player software that is downloaded and installed, such as the newer PowerDVD, TMT, and etc. In the case of the PS3 or standalone BDplayers, it is via firmware update - which is, of course, still software. The only practical difference is that on a PS3 or standalone, that software is "flashed" or saved on a chip and difficult to get to or modify. On a PC, the software is stored on the hard drive, so modification could (in theory) be much easier.

I meant something else. I meant the detection and the "corrective actions" are done HW, only the activation is software. That means the HW chip will constantly monitor the flow of audio data, detects the watermark (if present), outputs a TTL/logic signal at one pin and/or blends the corresponding message on the video (if it treats the video, too). If not, the player reads the signal at that pin and performs the corrective action.

In a generic CPU, like PCs and/or PS3, where all processing is done in a generic CPU, cinavia MUST be in software. In a HW-assisted processing, the algorithm may be hard-encoded (updatable via flashing or not) and provide 1-2 pins for interfacing with the system. This is not the case for todays' players, but might be the case for the next generation of HW-acceleration chips and the players based upon them.

[nevragain]

I don't think that it would be a simple signal from a detector chip to the main processor. It would be too vulnerable to probing.

[Ghitulescu]

I don't think that it would be a simple signal from a detector chip to the main processor. It would be too vulnerable to probing.
Not to the main processor, as eg the SMP series from Sigma are all-in-one chips, just to let eg a video overlay with a OEM message (eg country specific), instead of the built-in, the sound will be muted anyway by the detector, since the signal passes anyway through it, what are 2 more transistors compared to the millions they already have?

It looks only as a theory today, but only the time will tell the truth ... patience :)

[rik1138]

It is a step that shows that on generic CPUs, like Sony's Cell proc, cinavia can be disabled, because it is done in software (PS3 is a game console not a BDplayer). Probably they would manage eventually to bypass the routines also for AVCHD/BD, although I think that they did not do this because disabling cinavia on products where cinavia is mandatory might result in civil and/or criminal trials.

Nobody hacked or defeated Cinavia on the PS3. On PS3 debug units (special units with special firmware) Cinavia is not enabled. They used the Video playback routines from the Debug firmware and hacked them into the official firmwares (or, better description- 'Custom firmwares') and that effectively defeated Cinavia.

Gaming Debug consoles don't have the code to playback Blu-ray movies at all, so they've never been able to defeat Cinavia on Blu-ray. Sony has different 'debug' consoles that are used solely for Blu-ray Video production (these consoles can't play games at all, only movies), and on these consoles Cinavia is also disabled, even on the latest firmwares. That's what they need to get ahold of to defeat Cinavia on Blu-ray. The only other catch is that these Video-only debug consoles also can't decrypt AACS encrypted discs (i.e., they can't play retail manufactured discs). So if you used one to hack a firmware, you disable Cinavia, but then you can no longer play real discs...

But it definitely proves it's possible to shut it off in a PS3, I just don't think anyone cares enough to look into it (hacking the PS3 seems to be all about pirating games, not movies...)

[minaust]

But it definitely proves it's possible to shut it off in a PS3, I just don't think anyone cares enough to look into it (hacking the PS3 seems to be all about pirating games, not movies...)

That's the heart of the problem. Most people aren't affected at all by Cinavia. Why should they care?

[setarip_old]

Most people aren't affected at all by Cinavia.Except for those people who still purchase millions of DVDs and Blu-ray discs and desire to make backup copies for themselves ! - And also those who, like unwitting sheep, obediently either update or replace their standalones to the most current (Cinavia-infected) versions...

[setarip_old]

I just noticed that it's been almost three years since I started this thread about "Cinavia".

It's apparent that the early optimism of the Community (including me) was overly exuberant.

Perhaps some folks are still quietly working on it.

One can only hope...

(For the time being, I'd suggest that for those of us who still choose to view and OWN our videos on discs, keep your earlier model Blu-ray standalone players (and DVD players) in good working order)

[SeeMoreDigital]

I just noticed that it's been almost three years since I started this thread about "Cinavia".

It's apparent that the early optimism of the Community (including me) was overly exuberant.

Perhaps some folks are still quietly working on it.

One can only hope...
Fortunately for us all, in the three years you started this topic, Cinavia has not infected every Blu-ray or DVD disc release ;)

[SamuriHL]

I guess you haven't kept up with SlySoft then. :) An upcoming version of AnyDVD HD will disable Cinavia detection in TMT5, TMT6, and PDVD12. PLEASE NOTE!!! This is NOT a Cinavia "defeat". It only works for those specific players and does *NOT* remove Cinavia. I don't know the magic behind it and it's not yet out. But it's coming very soon and will work on both original discs and backups. But ONLY for those specific software players. It is still their stated goal to remove Cinavia with a more permanent solution going forward. However, since that will be in their Slyce product and that's been further delayed, no one knows when it'll be upgraded to perform Cinavia removal. So there's hope. Just not the grand hope that it'd be whacked in a few months like people originally may have thought.

[setarip_old]

@SeeMoreDigital

Hi! Fortunately for us all, in the three years you started this topic, Cinavia has not infected every Blu-ray or DVD disc release Yes, but there's presently nothing to prevent that from happening. The application of Verance/"Cinavia" to discs is done entirely at the whim of the studios and their related organizations...

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

While it's great to hear that someone (SlySoft) is still working on trying to overcome Verance/"Cinavia", it sounds like it'll be somewhere far down the road, if at all, that a cure for this is available for all the millions of standalone players...

[SamuriHL]

Yup. So my advice is if you want to play backups, don't buy one. It seems silly to me that people complain that there's no solution to remove Cinavia where there are solutions to avoid it altogether. :)

[DrinkLyeAndDie]

Yup. So my advice is if you want to play backups, don't buy one. It seems silly to me that people complain that there's no solution to remove Cinavia where there are solutions to avoid it altogether. :)

Many people get twisted enjoyment out of complaining about something they claim really annoys them. The logic in that one always eludes me.

Slysoft's workaround for licensed software players will be beneficial to many but the war is far from over. :)

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

You say: Yup. So my advice is if you want to play backups, don't buy one. It seems silly to me that people complain that there's no solution to remove Cinavia where there are solutions to avoid it altogether.
Perhaps it's a generation thing, but there are many people out there (myself included) who believe that they should be able to purchase and own a tangible product (a disc) and, as the owner, do what we please with it, including READILY making a properly performing backup copy without having to overcome things such as Verance/"Cinavia" interference/protection...

[SamuriHL]

I think you missed the point. You know that the players being sold now contain Cinavia detection. You know that many titles contain Cinavia (as the label on the back of each title shows). And, finally, you know that there is *NO* working solution for Cinavia. So if you're expectation is to backup your purchased titles, then given what you know, you should be avoiding the purchase of any Cinavia title AND/OR stand alone licensed players. To buy both and then complain that you can't play your backups is illogical. That was the point. Otherwise, if you choose to buy both, then you understand that you CAN NOT play backups on them currently are will remain waiting for the elusive removal that doesn't seem forthcoming ANY time soon. Someday? Yea.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

As I've stated several times before, I and many others are carefully husbanding our pre-Cinavia standalone players (Blu-ray, DVD, and even HD-DVD players for those of us who are creative at converting Blu-rays to HD-DVD movies-only using payware - or freeware multiAVCHD)

[SamuriHL]

And that's about all you can do. We can't WISH a Cinavia removal solution into being.

[setarip_old]

We can't WISH a Cinavia removal solution into being.That's been eminently clear since this thread was started - and when you performed your first series of very enlightening tests ;>}

Those tests certainly provided insight as to what we were (and still are) up against

[SamuriHL]

That's been eminently clear since this thread was started - and when you performed your first series of very enlightening tests ;>}

Sadly, quite true.

[[SLiM]D12]

Slysoft released the new version and so far users are saying it lets them play both AACS protected and non protected iso's in those software players without cinavia being triggered.

Definately a step in the right direction!!!

[Ghitulescu]

Unless one badly needs menus and watches movies only on a PC, this is pretty much useless.

[Big Vern]

Unless one badly needs menus and watches movies only on a PC, this is pretty much useless.

Why is it useless? As Slim said, its a step in the right direction. Maybe you have a better solution?

[setarip_old]

"[SLiMD]12" says it lets them play both AACS protected and non protected iso's in those software players without cinavia being triggered.
If this is so, it may be just one short step to capturing the videos (in real time) for Verance/Cinavia-free playback on various hardware setups...

[milkybar1983]

"[SLiMD]12" says
If this is so, it may be just one short step to capturing the videos (in real time) for Verance/Cinavia-free playback on various hardware setups...

nope the watermark will still be transferred to the new capture

[SamuriHL]

Correct....this is about disabling the Cinavia triggering mechanism in the player. If I recall, someone once predicted this would be the quickest way to "defeating" cinavia. Of course, they were discussing attacking firmware for hardware players, but, software players are clearly easier. This does not touch the embedded Cinavia signal in any way.