"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[setarip_old]

The relevance of my postings to this thread about this "Showtime" player is regarding its (if all proves out) EXTREME potential value, in conjunction with "jailbroken" PS3s, for the multitudes whose primary Blu-ray playback resource is the PS3 - and who until now could only look to Fengtao's somewhat limited "BDMV-REC" solution.

However, it should be noted that the author's website appears to indicate that earlier iterations of the "Showtime" player can also be used directly with computers and/or HTPCs running either Linux or MAC OS/X (Perhaps with some polite requests, a Windows version could also be created).

Although it's premature to state that this player heralds the demise of "Cinavia"/Verance, I will say - with a small smile on my face - that I am quite pleased to see the first such solution being one that results from the "jailbroken" PS3 - just as I had forecasted in this thread when the "jailbreaking" first occurred ;>}

Kudos to Andreas Öman, Project leader and to new member "muzzz33" for bringing it to the attention of the Doom9 Forum members!

[muzzz33]

Hi again
I have installed the showtime player on fw3.41 on its own and with another application called multiman which is used for my ps3 game backups.
The latest showtime version handles 1080p video and i have tested some movie backups that played ok.
As i mentioned in my previous post i do not have any cinavia protected material to test but if anyone is able to point me to a sample video that will normally trigger the cinavia then i will test showtimes response to it.

Thanks

[setarip_old]

@muzzz33

From what I've read, in order to test the "Showtime" player's ability to circumvent "Cinavia"/Verance protection you MUST be using a "jailbroken" PS3 (with, IIRC, modified, "Custom FirmWare" version 3.55). If you're willing/able to modify your PS3 accordingly, then for purposes of testing (NOT for permanent retention), you could rent any of the following Blu-ray discs that are confirmed to contain "Cinavia"/Verance watermarking (List is courtesy of the DVDFab Forum):

Blu-ray discs:
The Losers *(Warner Brothers, volume name=THE_LOSERS) (English track only)
The Karate Kid (2010)* (Sony, volume name=THE_KARATE_KID) (most of the tracks)
The Other Guys (Sony, 14dec2010) (English track only)
Resident Evil: Afterlife 2D* (Sony, 28dec2010) (English track only)
Resident Evil: Afterlife 3D* (Sony, 28dec2010) (English track only)
Salt (Sony, 21dec2010) (English track only)
The Social Network (Sony, 11jan2011) (English track only)
Takers (Sony, 18jan2011) (English track only)
Burlesque (Sony, 01mar2011) [NOT CONFIRMED]
The Tourist* (Sony, 22mar2011) (English track only)
How Do You Know (Sony, 22mar2011) [NOT CONFIRMED]
The Green Hornet (Sony, 03may2011) (just announced)
The Green Hornet 3D (Sony, 03may2011) (just announced)
The Roommate (Sony, 17may2011) (just announced)
* for those, in teritories where the movie is not released by Warner Bros. or Sony, the Blu-ray does not have Cinavia

If you choose to modify your PS3 in accordance to the information posted at the website(s)/forums for which you and others have provided links and then proceed with testing any of the above-listed Blu-ray discs known to contain "Cinavia"/Verance watermarking, please post your findings back here ;>}

[muzzz33]

I decided to buy the takers on dvd as i don't have a bluray drive on my pc, backed it up and tested. 20 mins in on normal player cinavia kicked in with code 3, I then switched to showtime and have just finished watching it with out any problems.
also you do not need to be on a custom firmware, i am on fw3.41 ,you just need to install the package built for the firmware of your choice although it still means i need to use a dongle every time i use showtime.
Anyway it does confirm that showtime bypass's the ps3 cinavia software detection.

[setarip_old]

@muzzz33 you do not need to be on a custom firmware, i am on fw3.41 ,you just need to install the package built for the firmware of your choice although it still means i need to use a dongle every time i use showtime.For those of us who are not PS3 owners/users, please be good enough to explain the function of the dongle you are using. Is it a hardware solution for "jailbreaking" the PS3 or something else? What's the cost?

Anyway it does confirm that showtime bypass's the ps3 cinavia software detection.Your testing certainly appears to substantiate that ;>}

However, I believe it is still most important for the "Showcase" player to be tested with the NO-cost, "jailbroken" PS3 solution.

Therefore, I'd once again suggest/request that any members (or anyone else) that have "jailbroken" PS3s test the "Showtime" player with a backup copy of one of the Blu-ray discs known to contain the "Cinavia"/Verance watermarking (See my Post #903) and report their findings back here...

[SamuriHL]

The requirement of having to be jailbroken is a non-starter for me unfortunately. I use my PS3 online for quite a few functions and there is a very big risk of having your console banned in the future using a jailbreak. If it didn't require that or if Sony was a little more lenient about it, I'd consider it, but, not with Sony's current attitude towards it.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

Of course you should concern yourself (as should all users) with your personal concerns and/or needs regarding your use of the PS3 - although as a non-owner of a PS3, as far as I know, the present primary functions of the PS3 are game playing and watching videos. That said, if you do some research regarding the current state of affairs of the "jailbroken" PS3, you'll note that there are apparently software mods "floating around" that 1) eliminate the need for connecting online in order to play many games and 2) can reverse/erase "banning" data on your PS3.

Additionally, it's been indicated that because of the nature of the "jailbreak", there's nothing that can be done by SONY to rectify the current situation (Too many related apps already out there in the ether) with the present PS3s. It's been stated that only the next new system will (possibly) put SONY back in the driver's seat. Thusfar, SONY's efforts have been to generate lawsuits and try to strongarm hackers into divulging other hackers' names and any data they can get there hands on. In one posting, it was indicated (with a screen cap of the email to support the contention) that SONY tried to hire one of the "jailbreak" hackers, after the fact. He politely declined.

More importantly, the FAR bigger picture here is that, presuming testing with "jailbroken" units supports the findings of "muzzz33", PERMANENT circumvention of the present "Cinavia"/Verance protection may have arrived for PS3s - and since the PS3 apparently represents such a significant portion of the Blu-ray playback market, this would likely stifle its further application to pure standalone players.

Also, let's not forget that the "Showtime" player apparently can also be used for playback under Linux, MAC OS/X and HTPCs. Can a Windows version be far off?

[SamuriHL]

Windows already has a good solution for Cinavia free playback, but, it's always good to have options. And in my case, it's not just a matter of games. I also use Hulu, Vudu, and Netflix on my PS3 and you have to be signed in to use those. Anyway, having said that, I do agree that this is significant. While it doesn't fix the PS3's player software itself, it does show that it can be circumvented which is a very big deal. As you said, the PS3 is a significant portion of the BD playback market, and is right at the top of those affected by Cinavia at present. This is definitely good for those willing to jailbreak. That and MKV support....NICE :)

[muzzz33]

The dongle that i use to jailbreak my ps3 was a cheap $15 chinese import. It is a usb dongle that injects a small payload onto the ps3 at start up. It is only required on 3.41 firmware.sony removed the vunerability on later firmwares, that is why there was a need for the custom firmwares.
I chose to stay on an official firmware as there are risks involved in changing to a custom firmware.
The future of the jailbreak scene is still unclear as not all the signing keys are in the wild and only a select few people have the knowledge to decrypt future firmwares. Geohot is one and he is locked in a court case with sony, he has said he will never release the way he hacked lv0 and mtldr.
Unless showtime can be signed like a proper app that can work on future firmwares then i believe only a very small percentage of people will benefit from its cinavia by-pass.

[setarip_old]

@muzzz33

Perhaps I'm unwittingly creating unnecessary confusion and concern about the word "jailbreak" (as a result of not owning a PS3). Please clarify - Is the following statement the same as saying you have to "jailbreak" your PS3? install CFW (Custom FirmWare) eg Kmeaw, very easy to do.
(usb memory stick required)

install showtime (which is as a pkg which will add it as if it were a downloadable content game.The quote is from the following post:

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forums/f15/cinavia-198938/#post1048224

[SamuriHL]

Yes, a custom firmware is jailbroken. And that is what can cause us problems.

[Ajax_Undone]

I think the best solution to the Cinavia problem is to abort the use and sales of these disks. They have not yet hurt the industry big enough to make a notable impact. The reason is The masses are not educated on the destructive power of this mass media take over.

The people need to know that the audio has been tampered with and that true HD sound they hear is cruft and they also need to know what to look for to avoid purchasing content that is protected by cinavia. It hampers creativity in the OSS community, It creates a cost dividend that is spread to the consumers who in turn are made to pay for destroyed useless content. Its a sluff off of every other type of control. As worthless as it is irritating.
I wont support it in any way!

I will say this I have not put one penny towards any Cinavia cruft and I have never updated my PS3 or my bluray players.

[muzzz33]

@setarip_old

the confusing part about what and when you need to jailbreak stems from the fact that when the first way to hack the ps3 was found, you were required to use the usb dongle to jailbreak the ps3 every time you turned it on, this sounds like a chore but it is very quick and easy.that was only suitable for fw3.41 and below to i think fw3.1 ,i could be wrong on that as things move quickly with developments.
after sony updated their firmware you were no longer able to jailbreak with the dongle.this remained the same for a few months and many homebrew projects concentrated on the working 3.41fw.
then the hackers(failoverflow team) discovered that sony had unwittingly gave them the private master key that they use for signing their software,that and keys released from geohot enabled hackers to make custom firmwares with the same type of payload that my dongle uses to permanently jailbreak the ps3, like the one you mentioned from kmeaw .
I may end up moving to the custom firmwares when i need to use a game that requires a higher firmware to run ,until then i am quite happy using the original method.
whether you use showtime with 3.41 fw or any of the custom ones it should not affect how the software runs on the ps3 and cinavia will be ignored just the same.
hope this clears it up a bit .

[setarip_old]

@muzzz33 hope this clears it up a bit .Very much so. Thank you ;>}

[SquallMX]

Showtime plays cinavia infected files (MKV, MP4, M2TS) just fine, but not complete Blu-rays or DVDs protected with it. :helpful:

[rotty]

I think the best solution to the Cinavia problem is to abort the use and sales of these disks. They have not yet hurt the industry big enough to make a notable impact. The reason is The masses are not educated on the destructive power of this mass media take over.

The people need to know that the audio has been tampered with and that true HD sound they hear is cruft and they also need to know what to look for to avoid purchasing content that is protected by cinavia. It hampers creativity in the OSS community, It creates a cost dividend that is spread to the consumers who in turn are made to pay for destroyed useless content. Its a sluff off of every other type of control. As worthless as it is irritating.
I wont support it in any way!

I will say this I have not put one penny towards any Cinavia cruft and I have never updated my PS3 or my bluray players.


This IS and always has been our biggest weapon BY FAR.

I really mean that.

HIT THEM WHERE IT HURTS, SALES FIGURES.

There are too many defeatist out here, if the disk has the Cinavia logo or you know it is infected DONT BUY IT.

We are paying for HD audio and getting tampered with audio, that is reason enough to start with not to buy, let alone the rest of the crap that comes with that.

[setarip_old]

@SquallMX

Hi!

Actually, there's a post at another website that appears to partially and conditionally contradict your statement:

http://www.ps3news.com/PS3-Hacks-JailBreak/showtime-media-player-ps3-homebrew-port-now-supports-1080p/page-5

Today Andreas Oman has updated his Showtime Media Player HTPC port for the PS3. The new release now includes 1080p playback at a constant speed and unconfirmed DVD playback

[Ghitulescu]

I think the best solution to the Cinavia problem is to abort the use and sales of these disks. They have not yet hurt the industry big enough to make a notable impact. The reason is The masses are not educated on the destructive power of this mass media take over.

The people need to know that the audio has been tampered with and that true HD sound they hear is cruft and they also need to know what to look for to avoid purchasing content that is protected by cinavia. It hampers creativity in the OSS community, It creates a cost dividend that is spread to the consumers who in turn are made to pay for destroyed useless content. Its a sluff off of every other type of control. As worthless as it is irritating.
I wont support it in any way!

I will say this I have not put one penny towards any Cinavia cruft and I have never updated my PS3 or my bluray players.

It was said before many times, and it's good that more and more people repeat it.

Besides, the American movies considered here to be Blockbuster are generally made for an audience having a mental age of at most 15 years and lack scenarios (they copy European movies) - thus the decision is even easier to make. Other than special effects there's little else ...

[setarip_old]

@Ghitulescu

As I said in Post #440 to this thread: I started this thread for the purpose of discussing the technical aspects of "Cinavia"..., when I said:

"It will be interesting to see what others may discover when they test their backups of the legitimate commercial BluRay on more current equipment."

Therefore, I'd appreciate it if we could stay on topic in this thread. Certainly, your stated opinion that: Besides, the American movies considered here to be Blockbuster are generally made for an audience having a mental age of at most 15 years and lack scenarios (they copy European movies) - thus the decision is even easier to make. Other than special effects there's little else ... is not in any way relevant to the topic of this thread - and additionally, may be considered by some to be inflammatory...

[Ghitulescu]

It has to do with 3 solutions to cinavia:
-disable its detection
-remove it
-force the producers to remove it

It worked with the CD, why it won't work with BD?

[setarip_old]

@Ghitulescu

Once again, your stated opinion that:

Besides, the American movies considered here to be Blockbuster are generally made for an audience having a mental age of at most 15 years and lack scenarios (they copy European movies) - thus the decision is even easier to make. Other than special effects there's little else ...
is not in any way relevant to the topic of this thread - and additionally, may be considered by some to be inflammatory - and has nothing to do with you now re-stating "old news" about obvious GOALS, not solutions, in dealing with "Cinavia"/Verance.

Member to member (and as the OP of this thread), please stay on topic...

[Ghitulescu]

No need to repeat an obvious taken-out-of-context fragment. It's a solution, as it will do probably one or the other
-either let cinavia in but drop prices (it's cheaper in Germany to buy an original than a BD DL; yes, I know, there is the grey market too but still expensive)
-or to take it out
Either solution works for me, I would nevertheless prefer the second.

[mike20021969]

@ old_pirates and Ghitulescu
Can you 2 get a room?

[setarip_old]

@mike20021969

I totally agree with the sentiment you've expressed. As the OP of this thread, I am attempting to prevent it (As I've previously attempted) from becoming yet another thread that some members foul up with OFF TOPIC banter and bickering. "Cinavia"/Verance is too important a topic to be derailed by unrelated postings.

Perhaps the moderators can have more success at this than I have.

[scanman1]

I am a lurker for the most part, but I can see that there is REAL effort being done on the Sony PS3, as a developer has created a GUI based tool for the sole purpose of decrypting the .pup file of the PS3 BluRay firmware!

The first thing on the list of things to patch will be this pesky Cinavia bug. I'm sure they also plan to study the detection code itself. This is the best platform for dis-assembly of this parasitic code. I'd like to be a fly on the wall in Sony's R & D lab right about now

http://www.ps3hax.net/showthread.php?t=22085


A developer named turusele has released a GUI for decrypting Blu-Ray Disc Player firmware drivers. The app is based off of the work of RichDevX and SeRoCuLtO, who originally developed the decrypter. The app will allow you to easily decrypt/encrypt the updated firmware drivers contained in the official Sony PUP files. Which in turn will allow you to start dissecting the functions of the Blu Ray player to help better understand and modify it.

Thanks to turusele who has made this GUI version of the software BDP Firmware Decrypter which was originally developed by RichDevX and SeRoCuLtO. This is basically a Windows app that will work on x86 or x64. This tool will allow you to easily decrypt/encrypt the updated firmware drivers contained in the PUP files. Basically, this will allow you to start dissecting the functions of the Blu Ray to help better understand them and modify them.

[Ghitulescu]

I am a lurker for the most part, but I can see that there is REAL effort being done on the Sony PS3, as a developer has created a GUI based tool for the sole purpose of decrypting the .pup file of the PS3 BluRay firmware!

The first thing on the list of things to patch will be this pesky Cinavia bug. I'm sure they also plan to study the detection code itself. This is the best platform for dis-assembly of this parasitic code. I'd like to be a fly on the wall in Sony's R & D lab right about now

http://www.ps3hax.net/showthread.php?t=22085

Well, a GUI isn't something breakthrough, it's nothing than a GUI to a CLI tool called BDCRYPT.EXE. It's this tool that allowed certain modifications to FW. It's like pretending, if I may and hypothetically speaking, that one of the GUIs to eac3to is capable of removing Cinavia, when in fact it's eac3to the tool that does it.

[derbeDeus]

I am a lurker for the most part, but I can see that there is REAL effort being done on the Sony PS3, as a developer has created a GUI based tool for the sole purpose of decrypting the .pup file of the PS3 BluRay firmware!

The first thing on the list of things to patch will be this pesky Cinavia bug. I'm sure they also plan to study the detection code itself. This is the best platform for dis-assembly of this parasitic code. I'd like to be a fly on the wall in Sony's R & D lab right about now

http://www.ps3hax.net/showthread.php?t=22085

that GUI that you refer to is pure BS and I'll tell you y: the command line tool it was made for does not decrypt anything ps3 related. so this is wishful thinking :P

[Ghitulescu]

Yeah, free advertising to some "pirates" that probably "sell" something else ...

[[SLiM]D12]

I've been reading for a while on this forum. I have a JB PS3 and installed showtime, but can't figure out how to play an actual BD Disc. From what Samurai posted it appears this feature isn't enabled yet, so i guess people are only testing cinavia infected mkv's at this point?


**EDIT**

Yep here it says it clearly:

Other stuff that does not work
TV-style remote controller (whatever that's called) has not been tested. No idea if it works or not.
BD/DVD/CD Discs - No idea how that works
Digital pass thru audio (AC3, DTS, etc)

[Ghitulescu]

Here's an example of what happens when people start reading free patent literature -> http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1494245
So, once again
The algorithms are clearly described in the patents. One cannot blindly find out something so resilient to manipulations.

So, using the info provided by Verance, one can disassemble the FW of the player (like with the LG GG*20 before, and region patching for countless DVD drives and players) to remove the detection routine. Nothing else is required.

[jordonb]

Assuming this is a subaudible sound sombody needs to identify it. A suitable low pass and high pass and or narrow band midrange bandpass filter might wipe it but this is assuming they are not violating the sanction of DTS which is 20hz to 20000hz. As somebody mentioned a visual artifact when the sound cuts out that may also trigger it. Or maybe the cinavia message triggers it and not visa versa if they use an alternate track for a split second. It could be a subtle phase shift in the sound of one of the channels also. It is important to keep an open mind. Equally important is if you buy the disk they should allow viewing it anyway you want. So some of you smart kids may try the above. I'm going to omit the sound track altogether. If that doesnt bring up the message on a PS3 then you can be assured one way or the other if it is truly audible or not and track it down to what channel if not combination of channels they are using. I'm to old for this but if they start doing this to DVDs the game is over unless somebody is thinking outside the box.
Good Luck

[rotty]

Assuming this is a subaudible sound sombody needs to identify it. A suitable low pass and high pass and or narrow band midrange bandpass filter might wipe it but this is assuming they are not violating the sanction of DTS which is 20hz to 20000hz. As somebody mentioned a visual artifact when the sound cuts out that may also trigger it. Or maybe the cinavia message triggers it and not visa versa if they use an alternate track for a split second. It could be a subtle phase shift in the sound of one of the channels also. It is important to keep an open mind. Equally important is if you buy the disk they should allow viewing it anyway you want. So some of you smart kids may try the above. I'm going to omit the sound track altogether. If that doesnt bring up the message on a PS3 then you can be assured one way or the other if it is truly audible or not and track it down to what channel if not combination of channels they are using. I'm to old for this but if they start doing this to DVDs the game is over unless somebody is thinking outside the box.
Good Luck

Hi
Cinavia is partly manipulation of existing audio, i.e. IS audible but not noticeable. As you may have seen in previous posts, it can survive bad microphone recordings, certainly, part of Cinavia is well within the normal audio spectrum.

[jordonb]

A couple of questions from an old tech.
Is this on multiple frequencies?
Doesn't this kind of make DTS a joke if they're in the audible range?
Could they be filtered using a band pass filter of any sort or are they changing by an algorithm?
I think the idea that their patent would lead to the solution is a false premise as I believe it is there to throw everybody a curve ball.
Am I Nuts????

[setarip_old]

@jordonb

Hi!

Although your questions, as standalones, are valid, I'd suggest that if you read through this thread (Yes, it's lengthy, but the topic is worthy of it) you'd see that most, if not all, of them have previously been asked and answered.

Of course, if you find that any have not been asked and answered, the members (myself included) would certainly appreciate you using your ststed expertise to research them - and post your findings back here...

[rotty]

A couple of questions from an old tech.
Is this on multiple frequencies?
Doesn't this kind of make DTS a joke if they're in the audible range?
Could they be filtered using a band pass filter of any sort or are they changing by an algorithm?
I think the idea that their patent would lead to the solution is a false premise as I believe it is there to throw everybody a curve ball.
Am I Nuts????

The audio is bastardised so yes, the audio is polluted and that does make a joke of supposedly perfect audio.

There are many ways of course to embed a signal within audio, from the downright sledgehammer approach to subtle phase changes and short term echoes etc.

I’m sure that the usual powers such as Slysoft etc are looking at this but its getting on for a year now and nothing on the horizon so don’t hold your breath.

Its also worth remembering that even if Cinavia can be removed, we need it to be removed/disrupted within the existing stream and not to re encode the audio. If we need to re encode then there is some loss there straight away, also we would not have access to professional audio encoder s/w (DTS MA or Dolby MA) so we would be left with either AC3 or LCPM (Massive file).

People power of course being the strongest force, as you have said, it makes a joke of so called DTS HD etc audio and so if the disk has Cinavia embedded and therefore corrupted audio, don’t buy it.

[GodofaGap]

Its also worth remembering that even if Cinavia can be removed, we need it to be removed/disrupted within the existing stream and not to re encode the audio.
This will be impossible. Cinavia is a property of the uncompressed stream, not of the compressed stream. The possibility of purposefully manipulating a compressed stream is very limited at best.

Re-encoding does also not have to mean loss.

[rotty]

This will be impossible. Cinavia is a property of the uncompressed stream, not of the compressed stream. The possibility of purposefully manipulating a compressed stream is very limited at best.

Re-encoding does also not have to mean loss.

It is not impossible to alter audio in a compressed state, replacing a slice of MP3 audio in an MP3 editor for example, the newly compressed slice replaces the old in the original stream, but as I said it may well need re encoding.

How will we be able to re encode to high standard in domestic enviroment, i.e. we only have encode software for AC3 and Wav LPCM. Other encoders are either unavailable or out of the budget range.

Slysoft for example will not be able to have professional s/w passed on to us in the proposed CloneBD.

[GodofaGap]

It is not impossible to alter audio in a compressed state, replacing a slice of MP3 audio in an MP3 editor for example, the newly compressed slice replaces the old in the original stream, but as I said it may well need re encoding.
Well that's not really manipulating the compressed stream now is it? That's just simple cutting and joining. And even that might not be that simple with compressed audio.

Anyway, where are you getting the replacements from? And if you don't have an encoder, how do you get them to be in the right format? And who is saying that replacing parts of an audio stream is going to eliminate Cinavia?

[Ghitulescu]

Cinavia is a property of the uncompressed stream, not of the compressed stream.

Not really, it withstand compression and it's now found on DVDs in the AC-3 audio track.

[rotty]

Well that's not really manipulating the compressed stream now is it? That's just simple cutting and joining. And even that might not be that simple with compressed audio.

Anyway, where are you getting the replacements from? And if you don't have an encoder, how do you get them to be in the right format? And who is saying that replacing parts of an audio stream is going to eliminate Cinavia?

I agree, thats what I was saying, how are we going to re encoded to the original quality without a professional quality encoder.

Slysoft say that "they intend to remove this stink", well it will be interesting to see the method.

I suspect that the simplest answer to this is stand alone and s/w players that do not implement Cinavia.

[Ghitulescu]

I suspect that the simplest answer to this is stand alone and s/w players that do not implement Cinavia.

Not really, as cinavia is now part of AACS agreement, so any HW/SW manufacturer/developer which intends to provide BD playback capability to his product is obliged to implement cinavia detection routines too. The only way to avoid this is to rely on mediatank concept, which would force the consumer to buy 2 players, one for HDDs and one for opticals (well, not a big issue as such, I have several different players, but the general trend is one-device-for-all, and since the market drives the production..., at least in theory).

[mike20021969]

Slysoft say that "they intend to remove this stink", well it will be interesting to see the method.
As long as no-one holds their breath waiting.

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885&page=77

(Posts #768 ~ #770)

[rotty]

As long as no-one holds their breath waiting.

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885&page=77

(Posts #768 ~ #770)


LOL
Hi Mike. It was touch and go for a while but im breathing again now.

[rotty]

Not really, as cinavia is now part of AACS agreement, so any HW/SW manufacturer/developer which intends to provide BD playback capability to his product is obliged to implement cinavia detection routines too. The only way to avoid this is to rely on mediatank concept, which would force the consumer to buy 2 players, one for HDDs and one for opticals (well, not a big issue as such, I have several different players, but the general trend is one-device-for-all, and since the market drives the production..., at least in theory).


Hi Ghitulescu hope your well, for the s/w player I was thinking of the Slysoft PC player. Its not out yet and I dont know much about it but Ive seen a lot of chat on forum(s).

Im like you, I prefere a stand alone player so hope some other solution appears.

[setarip_old]

@muzzz33 I decided to buy the takers on dvd as i don't have a bluray drive on my pc, backed it up and tested. 20 mins in on normal player cinavia kicked in with code 3, I then switched to showtime and have just finished watching it with out any problems.
also you do not need to be on a custom firmware, i am on fw3.41 ,you just need to install the package built for the firmware of your choice although it still means i need to use a dongle every time i use showtime.
Anyway it does confirm that showtime bypass's the ps3 cinavia software detection.Are you saying that the "Showtime" player is capable of playing FULL DISC backups of Blu-ray discs on a PS3? - or something else, such as an .M2TS file, an .MKV file, etc.

[GodofaGap]

Not really, it withstand compression and it's now found on DVDs in the AC-3 audio track.
Ok, so your English is failing you again. :p

I didn't say cinavia doesn't withstand compression. I only said that is a property of the uncompressed audio data. This means what you can do to remove it on a compressed stream and at the same time keep that compressed stream valid is very limited.

You will have to decompress the stream for any attempt at removal of cinavia.

[Ghitulescu]

Ok, so your English is failing you again. :p

I didn't say cinavia doesn't withstand compression. I only said that is a property of the uncompressed audio data. This means what you can do to remove it on a compressed stream and at the same time keep that compressed stream valid is very limited.

You will have to decompress the stream for any attempt at removal of cinavia.

Of course, one has to decompress the stream in order to perform anything thereupon, except stream copy. :)
You said however a property, not an action performed upon. And this property "survives" compression, lossy or not.

[GodofaGap]

You said however a property, not an action performed upon. And this property "survives" compression, lossy or not.
Which contradicts nothing I said.

My point was that rotty's wish of keeping the stream in its compressed form while still wanting to remove Cinavia is impossible. If I thought that compressed streams couldn't cary Cinavia I wouldn't have to make this point.

[rotty]

Which contradicts nothing I said.

My point was that rotty's wish of keeping the stream in its compressed form while still wanting to remove Cinavia is impossible. If I thought that compressed streams couldn't cary Cinavia I wouldn't have to make this point.

I wasnt saying that Cinavia or indeed any audio could either be detected or altered in a compressed state.
Just that changing portions can be achived without the whole stream being altered. Even then you would have to de-compress, read, then re encode those sections. Even then, re encoded using what encoder.

I would guess not much use for this particular problem. Cinavia is throughout the existing audio.

So as I said originally, I think that it would have to be re encoded.

I suppose if it is beaten via removal or dissruption, then we will have to put up with lossy re encode codecs.

All to do with Piracy, or is it ego.

[SamuriHL]

Or leave it as LPCM, which is what it gets decoded to. Those of us that use other containers besides BD could consider using FLAC. Maybe a TrueHD encoder could be developed. They have a decoder for it. But yes, it must be decoded first. That's how it even detects it in the first place. The player must decode it as it's being played even if it's bitstreamed.