"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[laserfan]

Oppo definitely supports AACS. Their BD player is pre-Cinavia vintage afaik, so, unless they can update it with a firmware to support Cinavia, there's nothing they can do. I suspect a LOT of existing players are going to be in the same boat. If it's possible to update with a firmware, then they'll be required to at some point. The AACS LA is requiring all new players to support it. That means TMT/PDVD/WinDVD will all have to support it at some point, too. Good times.Thanks. Hey as the current, undisputed, reigning expert on this subject you might wanna take some care to add the :rolleyes: smilie to some of your "Good times" comments. Methinks it confuses some people.

And, some of us are easily confused! :p

[SamuriHL]

What about applying some strong low-pass filter, let's say <15kHz?
I know such manipulation have no real use for typical end users (read audiophiles) but I'm just being curious for the sake of it.:rolleyes:

I honestly couldn't tell you. Definitely not an area I know anything about. I suspect, however, that the signal is embedded over various frequencies, but I'm just guessing here.

[SamuriHL]

Thanks. Hey as the current, undisputed, reigning expert on this subject you might wanna take some care to add the :rolleyes: smilie to some of your "Good times" comments. Methinks it confuses some people.

And, some of us are easily confused! :p

Reigning expert? ROFLMAO! I'm gonna go with no on that one. :D All I've done is to take my retail disc and run it through various backup scenarios and post the results. I have NO idea how to defeat this protection. I don't even fully understand how it works. They embed a signal in the audio stream (all channels, btw) that can resist re-encoding and analog recording attempts. The player somehow detects the embedded signal. And somehow (wizards?!) they managed to make it "inaudible". I put that in quotes for the purists that would say it's not really inaudible. How that signal works I have no idea. Wish I did. :) What's neat is they apparently have a couple different kinds of signals. For example, if you go to a cinema and record a movie (HIGHLY illegal, NOT RECOMMENDED) and bring it home to watch on your Cinavia enabled device, it apparently detects it immediately and shuts down playback completely. At least according to what I've read when searching for info on this. Then there's the signal embedded on my retail BD. This triggers after about 20 minutes or so of playing and mutes the audio. It's quite fascinating if not annoying. :)

[CruNcher]

Yeah as they state the Content owner can decide what the user is able todo with it DRM, though it's not really impressive if you know that research in this field was going on for many years and if you know about the things that for example IBM was researching it isn't really surprising either, Cinavia could very well replace also (IBMs DRM) stuff like the in house streaming only or licensed devices allowed only part as it seems to be configurable that way also only every Device and Software on the market would need to be prepared for this which will take some time, i guess we gonna see more in the future also here on Doom9 reporting about issues, the 20 min playback seems to be wanted btw from Universal as a Trial watch period very clever ;)

[TwoToad]

I'm not sure if this is possible, would there be a way to load both the DVD audio and the BluRay audio in some audio program and compare the two? I'm not sure of the terminology, but do some sort of search that would find the differences or subtract the differences...

If the signal could be identified, maybe some sort of filter could be made to remove the signal.

I don't know if this is helpful in anyway, just sort of thinking out loud =)

[SamuriHL]

That idea has been discussed on another forum. As one person pointed out, "eyeballing" it is not going to be very productive. If you don't know what you're searching for, finding it will be impossible even if you believe you have "identical" streams, which of course they're not. One is a DTS-HD MA track, and even if you convert it to AC3 it'll still be different than the DVD's AC3 track. Even if they were theoretically identical, finding the signal embedded isn't going to be easy. Certainly not really possible just looking at them visually.

[TwoToad]

Yeah, but if you subtracted the differences between the two sources, you should be left with a third "inaudible" wave file. My guess is that it would look like pulses in a repeating pattern, like Morse code.

[PacoBell]

Yeah, but if you subtracted the differences between the two sources, you should be left with a third "inaudible" wave file.That's probably a little naive. As SamuriHL mentioned earlier, the BD and DVD audio streams are so fundamentally different that even if you could "subtract the difference" between the two, you'd be throwing out a whole bunch of good information along with the Cinavia signal, maybe even to the point of degrading the quality to unintelligibility.

[setarip_old]

**EDIT - Truncated URLs Fixed

As I mentioned in another thread, the following appears to indicate that Foobar/Foobar2000 has the capability of identifying and eliminating audio watermarking (Post #3):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1302992#post1302992

Although this is applicable to audio DVDs (DVD-A), if it works, it might provide some insight regarding the workings of the "Verance"/"Cinavia" watermarking methodology, as well as possibly eliminate the need to perform some testing that has already been done.This, in addition to the 2001 white paper at:

http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/sec01/craver.pdf

might provide a significant "leg up" in analysis...

[kypec]

setarip_old: please fix the links in your previous post, they are truncated :(

[Wilbert]

setarip_old: please fix the links in your previous post, they are truncated
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1302992#post1302992

[setarip_old]

@kypec, @Wilbert

The links have been repaired in my post - and here they are again:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1302992#post1302992

http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/sec01/craver.pdf

[Sherbona]

As I mentioned in another thread, the following appears to indicate that Foobar/Foobar2000 has the capability of identifying and eliminating audio watermarking (Post #3)
Actually that post means that plugin gives Foobar the capability of defeating DVD-Audio's CPPM protection (thus allowing ripping to flac, wav etc... on a hard drive), and the ability to detect whether the source DVD-Audio disc has watermarking or not. However that plugin does not give Foobar the ability to eliminate the audio watermarking itself from the copied/ripped audio.

This means after ripping a commercial watermarked DVD-Audio disc and then using the resulting files to author another DVD-Audio disc, the resulting disc will not playback correctly if played in a DVD-Audio player that observes watermarking protection - but not all players check for watermarking, for instance Oppo players do not check for it.

So the Foobar plugin's ability to detect watermarking is useful for those who have players that observe watermarking, it allows those folks to know ahead of time whether they can make a playable copied DVD-Audio disc or not from their source disc. Removing watermarking itself from copied/ripped DVD-Audio is not done in any of the DVD-Audio ripping tools like Foobar with that plugin or with DVD Audio Explorer.

[setarip_old]

The following link appears to indicate that the concern about a "Cinavia" component already being included in WDTVLive hardware may very well be a red herring (Audio problems actually due to a new default setting in the current version of MKVToolnix (compression of audio headings) Read the entire thread:

http://forum.wdlxtv.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1036&start=0

Thanks to "~bt~" for finding and posting about this link in another thread...

[asarian]

Not without destroying the audio. It's not just embedded in the "non-audible" range from what I understand. They engineered it to not be audible, but, it's deeply embedded in the original audio track before mastering. I don't quite understand how the whole thing works, but, I understand enough of it to know that without being able to first detect it inside the audio track, there's absolutely no way to think about removing it.

And yet detection is 'trivial'. Which is to say, the manner in which to detect it is clear and present in every device that uses Cinavia. That's its Achilles heel.

Basically, all you need to do is to watch what the detector-side takes for markers. Of course, these are not markers in the sense of A-B-C-marker-D-E; but even when superimposed (or 'underimposed' is probably better, albeit awkward) onto the audio stream, it's still a marker, in the sense that the detector can extract pertinent information from it. In that regard, it doesn't really have to be removed altogether; you can criple/distort/weaken the markers, up to a point where the detector can't pick up on them any more. Or you could alter it just in relevant spots, so as to create the equivalent of a 'region-free' disc, so to speak.

So, all-in-all, I'm not that worried.

N.B. Also, it's a good thing I didn't hook up my PS3 to the Internet. I can stream H264 + 5.1 HD audio (in the form of LPCM); So I'm safe until my PS3 breaks. And, btw, I think it's pretty sleasy to sneak this malware onto people's systems, without an honest announcement.

Also, in my country, I am entitled, under law, to make a home copy of my Blu-Rays. In fact, I stream all Blu-Rays I own, simply because I prefer the 'point-and-click' menu of a mediaplayer over the spammy 'I want to forcibly show you ten previews first' method of inserting the real disc. Welcome to Sony et al. infringing yet further on my rights!

[SamuriHL]

Doing so, mind you, will most likely introduce audible flaws in the audio stream. You can't just randomly alter audio data and hope that it breaks the Cinavia detector while remaining inaudible. The likelihood of that happening is not very good. And from what I understand, it's spread across the frequency spectrum so it's not going to be all that easy to get rid of it. As for detection, sure, you can watch a player as it's running the detection routine. How, exactly, do you propose to do that when the only players that currently support it are hardware based? (Well, the PS3 is arguably a software player in every sense of the word, but, um, afaik the best hackers in the world have given up trying to hack it). You'd need a software based player that detects it in order to fully analyze it. That doesn't exist yet.

[asarian]

Doing so, mind you, will most likely introduce audible flaws in the audio stream. You can't just randomly alter audio data and hope that it breaks the Cinavia detector while remaining inaudible. The likelihood of that happening is not very good. And from what I understand, it's spread across the frequency spectrum so it's not going to be all that easy to get rid of it. As for detection, sure, you can watch a player as it's running the detection routine. How, exactly, do you propose to do that when the only players that currently support it are hardware based? (Well, the PS3 is arguably a software player in every sense of the word, but, um, afaik the best hackers in the world have given up trying to hack it). You'd need a software based player that detects it in order to fully analyze it. That doesn't exist yet.
Maybe I should have stuck a 'theoretically' in there somewhere; as, obviously, it's only 'trivial' if you have full access to the detection mechanism, which, as you point out, no one has yet. In fact, I highly doubt it can even be properly detected without following a machine actually doing the detecting; just looking at an audio stream, at least, I think will be a hopeless endeavor.

And yes, naturally, just arbitrarily munging audio data in the hope Cinavia won't be picked up on, would be a very bad idea. For one, you'd butcher the audio; and, for two, for this protection to be worth anything, it's probably extremely redundant, in that removing it in one spot wouldn't do you anything.

[SamuriHL]

Yup, that's pretty much how I look at it. The hardware analysis game is a difficult one at best. And without being able to detect it, removing it from the audio stream is going to be "difficult" at best. Especially if you don't want to kill the audio quality. It's been shown to be quite robust, too, so, it's going to be rather nasty trying to remove or break it without killing the audio.

[A.Fenderson]

Knowing nothing about how digital watermarking systems work, this may be a bit naive of me, and this likely only applies for making Blu-ray rips to be played back in blu-ray players on BD-Rs/REs anyway, but...
What if we approached it from the other angle: instead of masking/eliminating the marking, we signal the detector that the file being played back is indeed the original (legit) disc and not a copy? How does the player distinguish between the legit factory BD and a copy? I suppose it could be as trivial as:
1. Cinavia pattern + BD-R/RE media = no-go.
2. Cinavia pattern + no AACS encryption on disc = no-go.
etc, and if they're smart it's likely these and/or other things in combination, but does anyone have any informed speculation on what actually is necessary for the playback device to disregard the Cinavia pattern?

[asarian]

Knowing nothing about how digital watermarking systems work, this may be a bit naive of me, and this likely only applies for making Blu-ray rips to be played back in blu-ray players on BD-Rs/REs anyway, but...
What if we approached it from the other angle: instead of masking/eliminating the marking, we signal the detector that the file being played back is indeed the original (legit) disc and not a copy?
Well, that's essentially the method used by AnyDVDHD's famous virtual machine, in short emulating a 'real' Blu-Ray player. However, how would you go about doing so on a PS3? The PS3 simply knows it's streaming or not; there's no signal that's gonna change that. :) And if it detects a Cinavia signature in the audio-stream, you're humped. In the case of AnyDVDHD, they basically built an emulated Blu-Ray player around a disc; whereas you want to emulate a disc inside an existing Blu-Ray player. The latter is simply physically impossible (unless someone hacked the PS3 software, of course; which hasn't been done yet; and not for lack of trying).

It doesn't look all that bleak, though, come to think of it. It's just a matter of waiting for the next release of PowerDVD; and then, soon thereafter, the algorithm will be pwned. Unless the industry simultaneously banned the use of Blu-Ray software playback with the advent of Cinavia; but that seems highly unlikely (and would probably open up the floodgates of lawsuits to them).

[SamuriHL]

Or, the industry smartens up and creates an exemption for software players and don't allow them to use Cinavia, thus preserving it on the realm of hardware players and uncracked. :)

[asarian]

Or, the industry smartens up and creates an exemption for software players and don't allow them to use Cinavia, thus preserving it on the realm of hardware players and uncracked. :)
Well, in that case it's time I finally bought that fancy Xonar sound card with the HDMI out, and we'll bypass the PS3 altogether. They can't have their cookie and eat it. :)

[SamuriHL]

Well, in that case it's time I finally bought that fancy Xonar sound card with the HDMI out, and we'll bypass the PS3 altogether. They can't have their cookie and eat it. :)

I'm covered in all cases, personally. I have a PS3, but, I rarely use it for watching videos these days. I rely on my HTPC's, of which I have 2. In the past month, I've converted from using ISO images of my movies to MKV's. I've been using MakeMKV to create them. Using ffdshow and 1 of 3 splitters that support PGS subs within an MKV, I'm able to watch my whole library from any machine on my gigabit network just by opening 7MC and going into my video library. :) ffdshow gives me full bitstreaming. And it will never care about Cinavia. The only time I'm going to care about Cinavia is on rented discs. Then I use TMT3 or PDVD10 for playback. If those start to support Cinavia, then I'll use MPC-HC more and more until SlyPlayer is released. (I ALWAYS have AnyDVD open when watching movies, so, that would trigger Cinavia on rented discs on a commercial player if it supported it. Disabling AnyDVD is not an acceptable alternative for me.) Nonetheless, I would like to see this thing defeated for all the hardware people out there who are affected by this. What annoys me the most is the parallel to the gaming world. Draconian DRM screws the guy who buys a ton of BD's and wants to backup his collection. It has _ZERO_ affect on the pirates. They will find a way around this and continue posting their illegal stuff online. I'm *TOTALLY* on board with using this for cinemas. So called "CAM releases" should be DRM'd and stopped. But home BD releases that someone buys and wants to backup? Not so much.

[SamuriHL]

P.S. Skip the Xonar and get an nVidia 460 or ATI 5xxx card instead. You'll thank me later. :)

[asarian]

P.S. Skip the Xonar and get an nVidia 460 or ATI 5xxx card instead. You'll thank me later. :)
Most interesting! :) Are you saying the nVidia 460, next to HDMI video, can output HD sound over the same HDMI cable as well? In that case, yeah, I might as well built an HTPC and just get the PS3 out of the loop altogether. Would save me a lot of time re-encoding VC1 too.

FAKE EDIT: Hmm, seems even my crappy GTX 285 can do HDMI video + HD audio (via small S/PDIF loopback cable).

Okay, I feel a lot better now. :) Even if my PS3 dies, seems I'm covered with an HTPC.

Thank you already!

[sub24ox7]

The nvidia 285 can not do HD audio and it is also impossible to pass HD audio through spdif, HD audio can only by bitstreamed through
HDMI 1.3 and decoded and passed through as PCM with any version of HDMI as far as I know. I still have a xonar and look forward to the day of being able to be rid of it! I am going to get a ATi 5*** series card soon for HTPC.

[asarian]

The nvidia 285 can not do HD audio and it is also impossible to pass HD audio through spdif,
LOL. That's what I get for posting at 7 AM! :) Yes, that was never going to work. So I'll just get a GTX 460 for it.

[rotty]

Doing so, mind you, will most likely introduce audible flaws in the audio stream. You can't just randomly alter audio data and hope that it breaks the Cinavia detector while remaining inaudible. The likelihood of that happening is not very good. And from what I understand, it's spread across the frequency spectrum so it's not going to be all that easy to get rid of it. As for detection, sure, you can watch a player as it's running the detection routine. How, exactly, do you propose to do that when the only players that currently support it are hardware based? (Well, the PS3 is arguably a software player in every sense of the word, but, um, afaik the best hackers in the world have given up trying to hack it). You'd need a software based player that detects it in order to fully analyze it. That doesn't exist yet.


Re detecting Cinavia, I read a post here that said someone had played a movie twice on his PS3 and the movie muted but at different points on the two plays. I suspect that when the player detects Cinavia, and decides the disk is not ROM, then a random number is used which is the delay time before mute.

This makes it impossible to watch a player to get a clue as to the postion(s) in the stream the Cinavia is being detected.

[SamuriHL]

Re detecting Cinavia, I read a post here that said someone had played a movie twice on his PS3 and the movie muted but at different points on the two plays. I suspect that when the player detects Cinavia, and decides the disk is not ROM, then a random number is used which is the delay time before mute.

This makes it impossible to watch a player to get a clue as to the postion(s) in the stream the Cinavia is being detected.

Yes, I've noticed the "randomness". Apparently it's a delay that the studios can set. Warner Bros decided on about 20 minutes. But we can't just assume there are "points" that it samples to detect Cinavia. It's most likely embedded throughout the entire audio track rather than at random points.

[SamuriHL]

A comment on the nVidia stuff....only the new 4xx cards support HD audio bitstreaming. Anything that uses an S/PDIF conncector automatically fails. :) The new cards do not. They can already bitstream in WinDVD due to it using the standard bitstream types and ffdshow for the same reason. PDVD10 and TMT3 will need updates in order to bitstream. Maybe one of those updates will bring Cinavia support. :D We'll see on that one.

[rotty]

Yes, I've noticed the "randomness". Apparently it's a delay that the studios can set. Warner Bros decided on about 20 minutes. But we can't just assume there are "points" that it samples to detect Cinavia. It's most likely embedded throughout the entire audio track rather than at random points.

Yes but what I meant was that when the player has received the data it needs from the audio, instead of acting on it immediately, there is a random time let pass before it mutes, this means that there is no clue whatsoever by watching the player where it was detected.

In other words, each time you play the same movie from the beginning, it will mute at a different place to last time you played it.

[SamuriHL]

Yes but what I meant was that when the player has received the data it needs from the audio, instead of acting on it immediately, there is a random time let pass before it mutes, this means that there is no clue whatsoever by watching the player where it was detected.

In other words, each time you play the same movie from the beginning, it will mute at a different place to last time you played it.

Yup, that's exactly right. It could be detecting it in less than a second for all we know.

In any case, SlySoft has said they plan on removing it. I have no idea what their plans are on that and what timeframe they're looking at. I doubt it'll be soon.

[colinhunt]

I doubt it'll be soon.
My thoughts exactly. It's very likely quite a lot more difficult to remove than BD+ was.

[rotty]

Yup, that's exactly right. It could be detecting it in less than a second for all we know.

In any case, SlySoft has said they plan on removing it. I have no idea what their plans are on that and what timeframe they're looking at. I doubt it'll be soon.

Just imagine if these studios were not paying out for AACS, BD+, Cinavia etc how much more profit they would be making.

The price of BD movies could come down drastically then and they would still be making fantastic profits with more buying into the format to boot.

As for piracy, who would bother if the price of Blu Ray came down.

As ive said before, its not us they have to worry about, in fact they are alienating the very people that buy into this medium, how foolish is that.

We are not the pirates.

[SamuriHL]

My thoughts exactly. It's very likely quite a lot more difficult to remove than BD+ was.

I don't think it's likely to be in AnyDVD, either, from what James has said. Maybe it'll be a feature in CloneBD. I really don't know. Just going by what was said in the SlySoft thread. I trust that the SlyGods will figure it out, though. They have a very good track record with this sort of thing. ;)

[rotty]

I don't think it's likely to be in AnyDVD, either, from what James has said. Maybe it'll be a feature in CloneBD. I really don't know. Just going by what was said in the SlySoft thread. I trust that the SlyGods will figure it out, though. They have a very good track record with this sort of thing. ;)

REMOVAL

As I understand it, the Cinavia encoding is embed by audio timing/short term repetition (echoes) in the audio. So I would think it probably can be removed seamlessly

[SamuriHL]

Just imagine if these studios were not paying out for AACS, BD+, Cinavia etc how much more profit they would be making.

The price of BD movies could come down drastically then and they would still be making fantastic profits with more buying into the format to boot.

As for piracy, who would bother if the price of Blu Ray came down.

As ive said before, its not us they have to worry about, in fact they are alienating the very people that buy into this medium, how foolish is that.

We are not the pirates.


I agree. I've said the same thing many times. This protection is going to bother the people that want to make legit backups of the discs they purchase. But it's not going to bother the idiots who download everything from P2P sites.



REMOVAL

As I understand it, the Cinavia encoding is embed by audio timing/short term repetition (echoes) in the audio. So I would think it probably can be removed seamlessly

That would be nice. I guess we have to wait and see what the best hackers in the world come up with on this one. :)

[asarian]

A comment on the nVidia stuff....only the new 4xx cards support HD audio bitstreaming. Anything that uses an S/PDIF conncector automatically fails. :)
Yeah, that's what I forget last night. :) Well, you actually can do LPCM over S/PDIF, but only 2.0 sound, LOL. But it seems I've got plenty options left.

[SamuriHL]

Yeah, that's what I forget last night. :) Well, you actually can do LPCM over S/PDIF, but only 2.0 sound, LOL. But it seems I've got plenty options left.

Yup. So long as Cinavia stays aware from the software players. Otherwise, you can always go the freeware route, and the nVidia 4xx and ATI 5xxx cards both work fine with ffdshow for bitstreaming.

[asarian]

I don't think it's likely to be in AnyDVD, either, from what James has said. Maybe it'll be a feature in CloneBD. I really don't know. Just going by what was said in the SlySoft thread. I trust that the SlyGods will figure it out, though. They have a very good track record with this sort of thing. ;)
Well, for our consideration, even if someone manages to 'remove' it from the audio-stream, the resulant audio-stream will have to be re-sampled at a higher bitrate than the original; if not, you'll lose quality. So, size-wise, that might become an issue, too.

Also, what will a future CloneBD re-sample it to? DTS-MA is pretty proprietary stuff; I'm not really in the audio-field, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen DTS-MA encoders yet out there (at least not for public use). LPCM seems like a good alternative; but that's gonna eat into space like crazy.

[SamuriHL]

Well, for our consideration, even if someone manages to 'remove' it from the audio-stream, the resulant audio-stream will have to be re-sampled at a higher bitrate than the original; if not, you'll lose quality. So, size-wise, that might become an issue, too.

Also, what will a future CloneBD re-sample it to? DTS-MA is pretty proprietary stuff; I'm not really in the audio-field, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen DTS-MA encoders yet out there (at least not for public use). LPCM seems like a good alternative; but that's gonna eat into space like crazy.

All good questions. None of which I have an answer for. :) We'll have to hang in there until they let us know what the plan is. All I know is that James said they plan on removing it. No specifics. But earlier in the same thread he said it'd likely be impossible for AnyDVD to do it on the fly.

[laserfan]

James said they plan on removing it. I believe he is not one to over-commit, so this surprises me! Talk about sticking one's neck out!

Perhaps they looked hard at DVD-Audio or similar and determined some time ago that they knew how to do it, but never bothered because the effort was too great for the tiny market or something.

[SamuriHL]

I believe he is not one to over-commit, so this surprises me! Talk about sticking one's neck out!

Perhaps they looked hard at DVD-Audio or similar and determined some time ago that they knew how to do it, but never bothered because the effort was too great for the tiny market or something.

I've no idea. I just know that eventually, they always win. :) That's a simply remarkable team and I have nothing but respect for what they're capable of. We'll see what they cook up for Cinavia. :)

[setarip_old]

@laserfan

Hi! Perhaps they looked hard at DVD-Audio or similar and determined some time ago that they knew how to do it, but never bothered because the effort was too great for the tiny market or something.The 2001 white paper that I've provided a link to earlier in this thread presented the SUCCESSFUL results of various teams challenged to overcome 4 different types of audio watermarking.

MPAA and "Verance" (now "Cinavia") jointly supposedly tried to suppress the findings.

If not already underway, it's my supposition that another such "challenge", not limited to one decryption provider, will be just what the doctor ordered ;>}

[sub24ox7]

As for the DTS-HD encoder there is one made by DTS and I have it and use it frequently but it is extremely expensive! Dolby's true-HD encoder or media encoder is cheaper at 995 dollars.

[SamuriHL]

The time limit appears to be set by the studios. For example, the PS3 can detect it in under a minute if that's the predetermined time frame. That triggers an error message 1 pretty quick and kills the playback entirely. Message 3 is what you get for retail/rental BD releases and they give you a wonderful grace period of 20 minutes. Maybe that's a teaser to get you hooked on the movie. LOL! Anyway, yea, Q3? I'd say that's not impossible. I really don't know how long it'll take. But it's certainly not going to be done "on the fly". It'll require remastering and quite probably decoding of the audio. Won't that be fun.

[setarip_old]

Further to my thought that: if not already underway, it's my supposition that another such "challenge", not limited to one decryption provider, will be just what the doctor ordered - I find it curious that "Fengtao" has thusfar been completely silent regarding the "Verance"/"Cinavia" audio watermark protection...

[SamuriHL]

As has Mike Chen with MakeMKV. I'm curious as to what they will do with this thing if anything.

[SamuriHL]

Personally I don't mind paying a REASONABLE price for a blu-ray. The quality is great. Lately I've been renting movies when they come out and then wait 2 or 3 months for the sales to hit. I've gotten a LOT of blu-rays lately for 10-15 bucks USD. I consider that reasonable.

HOWEVER, I do wish to have backups of those discs. I've found that blu-ray is not very forgiving when it comes to scratches and fingerprints. The slightest defect and it simply won't be read on the average PC BD drive. The PS3 is more forgiving but I'd rather use my HTPC's. So, as soon as I buy them if they're a movie I'm going to watch "regularly" I rip it to my hard drive as an MKV. I can honestly say that if my ability to backup my media were hampered in any real way, I'd be buying less and less and renting more and more. After all, with a netflix subscription you can have any movie you want delivered to you in a day. And if it's defective, you simply get it replaced. I'd hate to stop buying movies cause I do like supporting the studios and actors/actresses that bring us entertainment, but, again, if I can't backup that investment, then the deal's off. Rentals are not going to bring them the revenue that they currently enjoy.

My point in all that is that if Cinavia or any other DRM ruins my ability to enjoy the media I buy in the way I want, I'll simply stop buying it and they will lose sales. So far, Cinavia doesn't look like it's going to impact me in the slightest, so, status quo for now.

[Guest]

I have deleted some rule 6 discussion.

No discussion of such stuff is allowed, for any purpose.