"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[foxyshadis]

If it doesn't have to do with the technical analysis of Verance or a method of detecting and/or breaking it, it doesn't belong in this thread. What is so hard to understand about that?

[hello_hello]

If it doesn't have to do with the technical analysis of Verance or a method of detecting and/or breaking it, it doesn't belong in this thread. What is so hard to understand about that?

The fact that the title of the thread is only a general reference to ""Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection" and the original post included nothing about any technical analysis of Verance, nor any references to breaking it.

[hello_hello]

That passage is only an exception, and in my opinion concerns only a change in the watermarking detection ie whether it changes, the product already on sale may not be retrofitted if the manufacturer doesn't want it. And this refer to products made after 2010 (first sunset) - and they do already contain cinavia by the simple fact that the SoCs already have it on-board. SoCs follow a different certification.

Where did you get 2010 as being the first sunset? How do you know SoCs already had it on board and followed a different certification? What certification was that?
The passage clearly states "but shall not have to comply with changes to the Specifications or Compliance Rules, or sunrise of new obligations (e.g., the Watermark Screening Obligations)"
Assuming 1st Feb was the sunrise date of the Cinavia obligation, ie when it became mandatory as even Verance's website claims, products sold before that date aren't obliged to include Cinavia, so the only way your claim makes sense to me, is if Cinavia was actually compulsory back in 2010. Is there anything to show it was compulsory back in 2010?

In my opinion, if one reads the passage alone, he might believe one can escape cinavia (because it's still not 100% no-cinavia). If one places it in its context, it must be 100% for cinavia.
I believe that the attorneys of Samsung, Pioneer etc. know how to read the document.

Could you show us which section of the agreement places the passage in context and shows players must therefore contain Cinavia, or ask the the attorneys of Samsung, Pioneer etc. to post here with their opinion?

[Ghitulescu]

A mod ruled out the "technicality" of this subject-matter, so unless there is a huge demand for a clarification, this issue remains as everyone interested can read and understand it.

From now on, this thread will remain probably closed for at least 3 years, as no technical solution really exists to circumvent cinavia. Like that of the DVD-audio, which is still not "broken", after how many years? And whose watermarking is even less complicated. The "technical" solution against watermarked DVD-As is to either use a wm-ignoring device or to play those files as eg FLACs on a computer.

All "technical" (LOL) solutions up to now involved a flawed design in a particular device, which is not even a player but a game console. Flaws closed, no circumvention.

[rotty]

A mod ruled out the "technicality" of this subject-matter, so unless there is a huge demand for a clarification, this issue remains as everyone interested can read and understand it.

From now on, this thread will remain probably closed for at least 3 years, as no technical solution really exists to circumvent cinavia. Like that of the DVD-audio, which is still not "broken", after how many years? And whose watermarking is even less complicated. The "technical" solution against watermarked DVD-As is to either use a wm-ignoring device or to play those files as eg FLACs on a computer.

All "technical" (LOL) solutions up to now involved a flawed design in a particular device, which is not even a player but a game console. Flaws closed, no circumvention.

Despite the early-on bravado re "removal of Cinavia", I also don’t believe any useable solution to remove the watermark exists.

The language of "Removal" will quietly disappear.

I would bet (and im not a betting man) that all that will be offered will be a software player that will ignore the watermark.

And then, possibly, only useable until the PC architecture is changed to put pay to that.

[omegaman7]

And then, possibly, only useable until the PC architecture is changed to put pay to that.

You're suggesting they'll put a leash on the PC. I doubt that that will last long ;) Cinavia detection on a PC will likely happen, but there will be workarounds shortly after.

[rotty]

You're suggesting they'll put a leash on the PC. I doubt that that will last long ;) Cinavia detection on a PC will likely happen, but there will be workarounds shortly after.

The PC CPU and I/O (All I/O including Video and Audio streams) and Watermark detection will be conatined within a single chip.

There will be no workround.

[diogen]

I don't think hardware DRM on PCs will go far...

We have heard about Trusted Computing for a long time.
I think the best known (and not abandoned) implementation have Macs: OS X isn't suppose to install unless the Infineon TPM is present.
The Hackintosh community had an answer for that shortly after implementation.

I think the cycles in chip design and software are too different.
The entertainment industry has a better chance to abandon the PC as a playback platform...

Diogen.

[diogen]

The PC CPU and I/O (All I/O including Video and Audio streams) and Watermark detection will be conatined within a single chip.You can't be serious...

Diogen.

[SamuriHL]

What I could see happening is that another spec similar to PAP being created for use by software players. And what I'm saying here is that the video and audio drivers and licensed software players would be required to support this new spec. The player could then pass along whether the media is a trusted source to the audio/video drivers using an encrypted token. And then the driver can check for Cinavia. But that would require a new spec to be implemented similar to how PAP was created for bitstreaming audio on the PC. If the "trust source token" isn't passed to the driver, and Cinavia is detected, then at a driver level the audio would be muted and/or video shut off. Whatever. I don't honestly feel this will be done. I'm simply suggesting it COULD be done on a technical level. It'd be pretty stupid. I think it's far more reasonable to keep everything at the player level as it's done now. I mean, come on, we haven't even gotten that far yet. To think that imminent doom is upon us is pretty far fetched at this point in time. You're talking years out if that (for a more advanced detection routine based on hardware, I mean).

[rotty]

What I could see happening is that another spec similar to PAP being created for use by software players. And what I'm saying here is that the video and audio drivers and licensed software players would be required to support this new spec. The player could then pass along whether the media is a trusted source to the audio/video drivers using an encrypted token. And then the driver can check for Cinavia. But that would require a new spec to be implemented similar to how PAP was created for bitstreaming audio on the PC. If the "trust source token" isn't passed to the driver, and Cinavia is detected, then at a driver level the audio would be muted and/or video shut off. Whatever. I don't honestly feel this will be done. I'm simply suggesting it COULD be done on a technical level. It'd be pretty stupid. I think it's far more reasonable to keep everything at the player level as it's done now. I mean, come on, we haven't even gotten that far yet. To think that imminent doom is upon us is pretty far fetched at this point in time. You're talking years out if that (for a more advanced detection routine based on hardware, I mean).

Time will of course tell.

They know they are on to a winner with audio watermarking and the algorithms are endless.

So it could easily be worth it for them to close off all avenues.

[SamuriHL]

Time will of course tell.

They know they are on to a winner with audio watermarking and the algorithms are endless.

So it could easily be worth it for them to close off all avenues.

Sure, no doubt. My point was that you can speculate long term all you want. It doesn't change what's here and now. Today, we have a few players that support Cinavia detection. We have under 100 titles that have Cinavia on them worldwide. We do not have ANY Cinavia detection happening on the PC. That's today.

Near term, we will start to see more players with Cinavia detection. We will LIKELY see more studios start to put it on their releases, which means an uptick in titles that have Cinavia on them. Commercial PC software will eventually get this stuff added...either in the near term or not so distant long term.

Long term....speculation. Pure and simple. That's all we have. We can make all kinds of predictions about what will and won't happen, but, so far when we've tried (myself especially), we've been *WRONG*. When Cinavia came out people were SURE a year from then ALL players would have support for it, no new titles would be released without it, the PC would be locked down, and the end is here. How'd that work out? It's one of those things where if you keep making the same predictions year after year eventually you'll be proven right all along. It's actually rather meaningless.

Focus on what's here today and what we KNOW that's coming up in the near term. Long term? Don't bother....it'll change anyway.

[rotty]

Sure, no doubt. My point was that you can speculate long term all you want. It doesn't change what's here and now. Today, we have a few players that support Cinavia detection. We have under 100 titles that have Cinavia on them worldwide. We do not have ANY Cinavia detection happening on the PC. That's today.

Near term, we will start to see more players with Cinavia detection. We will LIKELY see more studios start to put it on their releases, which means an uptick in titles that have Cinavia on them. Commercial PC software will eventually get this stuff added...either in the near term or not so distant long term.

Long term....speculation. Pure and simple. That's all we have. We can make all kinds of predictions about what will and won't happen, but, so far when we've tried (myself especially), we've been *WRONG*. When Cinavia came out people were SURE a year from then ALL players would have support for it, no new titles would be released without it, the PC would be locked down, and the end is here. How'd that work out? It's one of those things where if you keep making the same predictions year after year eventually you'll be proven right all along. It's actually rather meaningless.

Focus on what's here today and what we KNOW that's coming up in the near term. Long term? Don't bother....it'll change anyway.


100 titles, what number would you say IS a problem. Will you still be saying this at say 500, still at 1000, still at 5000.

What number of players enabled, what figure ?

It really feels like head in sand to me.

Right NOW cant me today or next week. NOW must mean today and a forward span of a few months.

Comercial Software Players with detection, well you know as well as I do that they will not be able to sell them if Slysoft have a player.

The Comercial Software Player Companies could go out of business.

So, the PC will then be outside the protection of Cinavia, no matter what a Company does to stop it.

Architecture change will be forced on the PC manufaturers to do something about it.

Well this is what I see as reality. Now it is an opinion, and that is what a forum is in part for.

[SamuriHL]

100 titles, what number would you say IS a problem. Will you still be saying this at say 500, still at 1000, still at 5000.

What number of players enabled, what figure ?

It really feels like head in sand to me.

Right NOW cant me today or next week. NOW must mean today and a forward span of a few months.

Comercial Software Players with detection, well you know as well as I do that they will not be able to sell them if Slysoft have a player.

The Comercial Software Player Companies could go out of business.

So, the PC will then be outside the protection of Cinavia, no matter what a Company does to stop it.

Architecture change will be forced on the PC manufaturers to do something about it.

Well this is what I see as reality. Now it is an opinion, and that is what a forum is in part for.

My head's not in the sand. Nor is it in the clouds. It's focused on what reality is today.

The number of titles is completely irrelevant. What is not irrelevant, however, is the number of players. Because the discs can be as infected with Cinavia as they want, but, if the player doesn't detect it, then it's POINTLESS. So I would say, again, to look at where we're at TODAY. Which is this: MOST people who have a BD player are not affected. I'm not talking about whether they COULD be or not. I'm simply stating that as of today, most people that own a licensed BD player are not inhibited by Cinavia at all. Regardless of how many discs there are out there that have it. Now I will agree that PS3 owners are the ones who got screwed the most. I own one, so I get it. But, quite frankly, if you're scared to death of big bad Cinavia, get another player. In fact, ALMOST any other player will do for now. We can speculate about how long those other players will remain Cinavia free or not, but, as of right now, the majority are, and the rest is nothing more than speculation. Which, as I said, we're notoriously bad at.

Please understand, I have NO problem with you having an opinion here. At all. I just wanted to share mine, as well, in that I personally think there's too much doom and gloom surrounding Cinavia. (I'm partially to blame for that, I freely admit. My own speculation over the years has done nothing to calm people's fears about it. I accept my responsibility there.) I just think it's overblown. I get what you're saying and where you're coming from. I really do. I just look back at the predictions we've made since Cinavia was released and observe that we aren't so good at it. :)

All that leads me to, keep constant watch on how things are RIGHT NOW, look for clues as to how they're going to change in the near term, and continue to exercise strategies for avoiding this stupid protection completely. That's what I'm doing and so far, other than intentionally triggering it on my PS3 for fun, I've never been affected by it. Nor should anyone who's serious about watching backups. The avoidance strategies today aren't hard. We just don't know what will change, and when, going forward when using licensed players.

[rotty]

What do you mean the number of titles is irrelevant.

You are the one that used a number to make your point, you are the one who used the figure of 100 not me.

You completely missed my point.

You were the one that used a number to make a point,
So I ask again, what number RIGHT NOW (as if today had that number), what number of titles WOULD you say is significant.

[omegaman7]

I don't think it's the number to date (100) that gets peoples attention. I think it has more to do with how many titles per month are being distributed with cinavia. That number is very small. Mostly $ony titles eh?

If even a couple more studios begin implementing, THAT will get peoples attention big time LOL!

[SamuriHL]

I think you missed MY point. :( 1 disc is too many *IF THE PLAYER DETECTS IT*. EVERY disc is irrelevant *IF THE PLAYER DOESN'T*. So, again, the number of titles that contain Cinavia is not the issue. It's the number of PLAYERS that is.

[SamuriHL]

I don't think it's the number to date (100) that gets peoples attention. I think it has more to do with how many titles per month are being distributed with cinavia. That number is very small. Mostly $ony titles eh?

If even a couple more studios begin implementing, THAT will get peoples attention big time LOL!

It could be ALL of them and it'd still not get my attention. :) However, if tomorrow I woke up and EVERY SINGLE BD player in the world was suddenly Cinavia enabled, then I'd be concerned.

[rotty]

I of course have no problem with you having an opinion that is opposite to mine.

You are a respected contributor and have my respect as well.

But as with any business, you cant just look at today, you need to look into the near future to make sense of life.

If you were told you have a serious illness, you wouldnt say to the doctor, I feel OK today so im not going to worry about next month.

[SamuriHL]

Let me ask you this....my PC can play ANY BD I want right now either with or without a licensed software player. And it doesn't matter at all if that BD contains Cinavia. So what, in the next year, is going to change that? Anything? Even if the commercial players get updated to support Cinavia, I am smart enough to back up the very latest version that doesn't. And if they decide to revoke the player keys of the commercial players to force you to update, I still don't care because I use AnyDVD to remove all protections anyway. And since I use AnyDVD to remove protections, that opens me up to non-commercial players that don't give a care in the world that Cinavia is in the audio stream. So, tell me, how am I going to be affected any time soon? What is the big FEAR I have to be concerned with? Anything?

[rotty]

It could be ALL of them and it'd still not get my attention. :) However, if tomorrow I woke up and EVERY SINGLE BD player in the world was suddenly Cinavia enabled, then I'd be concerned.

Now I know you dont like to look into the future but,
just out of interest, what do you think is most likley:

a) An insignificant number of players will be enabled this Year.

b) A significant number of players will be enabled this Year.

[rotty]

Let me ask you this....my PC can play ANY BD I want right now either with or without a licensed software player. And it doesn't matter at all if that BD contains Cinavia. So what, in the next year, is going to change that? Anything? Even if the commercial players get updated to support Cinavia, I am smart enough to back up the very latest version that doesn't. And if they decide to revoke the player keys of the commercial players to force you to update, I still don't care because I use AnyDVD to remove all protections anyway. And since I use AnyDVD to remove protections, that opens me up to non-commercial players that don't give a care in the world that Cinavia is in the audio stream. So, tell me, how am I going to be affected any time soon? What is the big FEAR I have to be concerned with? Anything?

I dont think you have anything to fear.

I have never even thought about it in that way.

I was just making a point as to how I see industries reacting.

I think that if you have enough PC's to last your lifetime then your more than safe (I think ???)

[SamuriHL]

Now I know you dont like to look into the future but,
just out of interest, what do you think is most likley:

a) An insignificant number of players will be enabled this Year.

b) A significant number of players will be enabled this Year.

I honestly have no idea. In 2010 I would have answered with a majority of players. Today, I'm literally saying I don't know. The reason? History has taught us well that we really don't have a clue. What is most likely and logical in every sense isn't necessarily what's going to happen. As we have seen. Since Cinavia works, shouldn't every disc have it and every player support it by now? But that's not the case. So....you tell me.

[SamuriHL]

I dont think you have anything to fear.

I have never even thought about it in that way.

I was just making a point as to how I see industries reacting.

I think that if you have enough PC's to last your lifetime then your more than safe (I think ???)

Right, that's been the point I was trying to make. To look at things from the viewpoint of an end user who just wants to play their backups. Myself, I make MKV's of all my discs and play them using J River's MC17. It doesn't know a darn thing about Cinavia and it couldn't care less. I could just as easily make the MKV's and play them on a WD Live TV media streaming device as my dad does. Also not affected by Cinavia. For rented discs I use TMT5 and PDVD12 with AnyDVD running. Once those get Cinavia, then I will switch to just using J River MC17 on the disc itself, or I will just simply not upgrade TMT and/or PDVD. Done. Cinavia can fade away into oblivion at that point.

I couldn't care less about how the industry reacts. What I care about is the simple down to earth question...."Is this going to affect my ability to play my backups...or not?" And so far, even in the foreseeable future, the answer is NOT. This right here is why I have the attitude I do towards Cinavia. Until I am, or am likely to be, affected by it, I simply find it a fascinating topic, but, really nothing more than that.

[rotty]

I honestly have no idea. In 2010 I would have answered with a majority of players. Today, I'm literally saying I don't know. The reason? History has taught us well that we really don't have a clue. What is most likely and logical in every sense isn't necessarily what's going to happen. As we have seen. Since Cinavia works, shouldn't every disc have it and every player support it by now? But that's not the case. So....you tell me.

Im with you on this but if I was really pushed and HAD to pick I would go for b).

I dont think we will see a removal program, so we have 2 options:

1.. The PC
2.. Dont buy

And you know which one I think has the last say.

[SamuriHL]

Im with you on this but if I was really pushed and HAD to pick I would go for b).

I dont think we will see a removal program, so we have 2 options:

1.. The PC
2.. Dont buy

And you know which one I think has the last say.

No argument there. :) I would love to say I'm not going to buy it. To support the cause. But, for me I have a policy that if I take the time to go see it in the theater, I generally buy it just on principle. Because I've already forked over 30 or more bucks to see it anyway. If it's a movie I haven't seen and am not sure about, I'll rent it. But if it's something I haven't seen but know I'm going to want to watch it more than once, I buy it. Yes, not buying is the best answer. But what happens if more studios adopt it? Are you going to have the willpower to avoid them all? I know I won't. I'm just being honest here. :)

[rotty]

No argument there. :) I would love to say I'm not going to buy it. To support the cause. But, for me I have a policy that if I take the time to go see it in the theater, I generally buy it just on principle. Because I've already forked over 30 or more bucks to see it anyway. If it's a movie I haven't seen and am not sure about, I'll rent it. But if it's something I haven't seen but know I'm going to want to watch it more than once, I buy it. Yes, not buying is the best answer. But what happens if more studios adopt it? Are you going to have the willpower to avoid them all? I know I won't. I'm just being honest here. :)

LOL, you do what I do. If have gone to see it at the Cinema, then its probably a film I want on BD. Some films ive been to see dont fall into that catagory lol.

Ive been lucky so far because I think most if not all in the Cinavia list I dont really want to see let alone own.

I will though NOT buy even if I want it if it has Cinavia.

I really think that at this early stage in both Cinavia and in fact BD uptake, we can make a great big difference if we do this.

[rotty]

It wouldnt last long, word would get about re sales figures, that would fuel it more.

You wouldnt have to hold out too long.

they would cave in.

[SamuriHL]

You have more willpower than I do for sure on that one. :) Plus I have kids and my wife to think about. I completely and totally understand the boycott idea and even support it in theory. I just know that I wouldn't be able to hold out.

[rotty]

You have more willpower than I do for sure on that one. :) Plus I have kids and my wife to think about. I completely and totally understand the boycott idea and even support it in theory. I just know that I wouldn't be able to hold out.

yeh I know, havnt had the problem yet as no movie in that list wanted. will possibly rent if need to keep the peace.
NOT BUY.

[SamuriHL]

yeh I know, havnt had the problem yet as no movie in that list wanted. will possibly rent if need to keep the peace.
NOT BUY.

What's funny, though, is that because of the playback methods I use, I literally have to look on the cover or at a list to know which of mine contain Cinavia and which ones don't. LOL! When I say I'm not affected, I mean not even the littlest bit. :D At this point I figure if it's a Sony release, it likely has Cinavia. If it's a Warner Bros release, it's at least possible. And if it's anyone else, it's possible but not probable. But other than looking on the cover or seeing online that it has Cinavia, I genuinely wouldn't even know unless I tried to stream it to my PS3. I stopped using that for media playback LONG before Cinavia came around. :)

[setarip_old]

(See "Lord Mulder's" post in the "News sub-forum here)Experimental support for BluRay discs:
- Menus are deactivated in this release (will come soon).
- AACS and BD+ DRM libraries and keys are not shipped, for legal reasons.Sounds like we may soon have another reason not to be too concerned about Verance/"Cinavia" protection (When used in conjunction with DVDFab Passkey, AnyDVD, or possibly MakeMKV) ;>}

[SamuriHL]

Yea, the new VLC is pretty sweet. I hadn't seen those two entries, though. VERY NICE!

[Ghitulescu]

Again wishful thinking.

Microsoft licensed cinavia. Why? To put it on Xbox? No, probably because MS wants its in-house player to be able to play BDs on a PC, thus transforming the PC into a player and thus needing an AACS licence, too, which comes in turn with cinavia as well.

Intel will burrow DRM algorithms deep down into the CPU, so any software is useless, unless this SW patches that, before CPU (impossible, unless Intel itself provided a hook point).

Therefore the originals will play (following a sort of PAP method) while the copies will be blocked.

The standalones are cinavied, the PCs will be soon, the game consoles :) are cinavied, too. Where will one be play the copies? On his cellphone?

What I've seen here was only a wish, based that someone, somewhere, and somehow will find a solution to remove cinavia, technically I mean. Hopes go to DVDfab and AnyDVD. That is a nice delegation of tasks. But supposing they'll manage to "decinaviy" the audio, how can one get into the possession of this software? Probably booking a trip to Antigua, because the internet will be blocked as well, at least for "dangerous" sites. And hoping that the Customs won't notice the memory-stick, nor the bank transfer.

The only solution to cinavia you can do without delegating is to instruct your senator/representative to issue laws ruling out some intrusive aspects of AACS and cinavia. They could rule as illegal, for instance, the leverage of "copy tax" on media and recorders, since no copy can be made. Because cinavia cannot be legally outlawed.

[Andy o]

What's the timeframe do you think, until that happens?

[rotty]

If you knowingly buy a disk with the Cinavia watermark, then you cannot complain about Cinavia.

Not a moan, not a bad word.

It’s like slagging off a politician, saying that they are bad/useless/corrupt, and then voting for them to put them in power.

[Ghitulescu]

They start envisaging the complete digital lockdown somewhere around 1989-1990, the first results can be seen today, after some 20 years*. I think in 5-10 years (as they have less work to do now) everything that has to do with multimedia content will be definitively locked, one way or the other.

In 1920, if one destroyed his record (classical things like, the kids, the dog, the cat) that one had to buy a second original. One wanted to see twice a particular movie? No problem, s/he must buy a second ticket. We'll come back to that situation, except that tomorrow one cannot skip the trailers and commercials :). The first item is renamed today as No right to private copy (only the original is legal), the second one is renamed Video-on-demand. Old news ;).

The magnetophone (R2R) and the VCR changed this order. The studios lost both trials (in analogue) but the won the digital ones (CDR, DAT, SCMS). They lost the Rio one, but now they found the solution to this "hole", too. Simply, drop the analogue. One cannot protect the analogue that good as the digital. It was not a favour (digital quality ;)), it was a theft.

The history repeats itself. Those willing to copy macrovisioned-tapes (or DVDs the analogue way) had to rely either on a MV-remover or to hunt an older-than-1985 VCR. When MV outlawed the first, people were left only with the second solution.


* I mean everything is copy-protected, unless the law forbids it and even then, they could enforce it (that's the power of a monopole). All private SAT and Cable broadcasters use now various flags to prevent copying, time-shifting, archiving, analogue output etc. In some instances they can even prohibit the FWD (commercial skip). The DVD was a closed system (digital and analog) until someone broke the CSS. The BD learned from this early mistake and designed the system to be upgradable. The specs are also upgradable, so that they could force the users to change their players much easily (the most part of non-cinavia players has been made obsolete eg by 3D). The players will also be made as cheap as possible, so they can break around the time when a new "technology advance" rise. I read in various fora that the early models already developed laser rot symptoms, after some 4-5 years. Just in time to buy the new 3D cinavied player.

PS: the future in communications will foresee only cables (copper or optical or whatever new technology). Because only the cable can guarantee a targeted distribution of the information (for instance you see your own customised "version" of CNN news, while your neighbour might see the same CNN news but with a different content) and of course its full control (like selective filtering of internet - google does it for years).

[ro-ee]

Intel will burrow DRM algorithms deep down into the CPU, so any software is useless, unless this SW patches that, before CPU (impossible, unless Intel itself provided a hook point).

Therefore the originals will play (following a sort of PAP method) while the copies will be blocked.


As long as no cpu-accelerated methods are used, DRM algorithms have no say in this. Think of it that way: just as currently you can let the graphics card decode the video (and where DRM algorithms could detect and block it), you can still have it all done in cpu (though this may have a speed impact). And in cpu it's pure software (think of ffmpeg).

One problem could be the output of audio through a on-chipset sound chip. If the chipset maker decides it doesn't allow watermarked (i.e. cinavia'd) audio to be played if no prior authentication has been done with a certain software, then we're again screwed. To mitigate this either one has to use extra hardware (a spare sound card) or find a way to authenticate itself so even the sound chip detects cinavia, it lets it pass because it thinks it comes from a trusted source.

As a rule of thumb I would say: if it can be done completely in software, you're still safe. Once you rely on hardware acceleration (and the hw has detection algorithms), you need to fool the hw into thinking it comes from a trusted source or use HW w/o the detection.

[rotty]

As long as no cpu-accelerated methods are used, DRM algorithms have no say in this. Think of it that way: just as currently you can let the graphics card decode the video (and where DRM algorithms could detect and block it), you can still have it all done in cpu (though this may have a speed impact). And in cpu it's pure software (think of ffmpeg).

One problem could be the output of audio through a on-chipset sound chip. If the chipset maker decides it doesn't allow watermarked (i.e. cinavia'd) audio to be played if no prior authentication has been done with a certain software, then we're again screwed. To mitigate this either one has to use extra hardware (a spare sound card) or find a way to authenticate itself so even the sound chip detects cinavia, it lets it pass because it thinks it comes from a trusted source.

As a rule of thumb I would say: if it can be done completely in software, you're still safe. Once you rely on hardware acceleration (and the hw has detection algorithms), you need to fool the hw into thinking it comes from a trusted source or use HW w/o the detection.

The CPU will become a single chip.
This Chip will have:
1..The main CPU
2..A small 8/16 bit CPU for DRM running on board s/w
3..All I/O

Where would your external soundcard get its input signal.

From the single chip CPU. The stream from the I/O would be blocked.

[ro-ee]

The CPU will become a single chip.
This Chip will have:
1..The main CPU
2..A small 8/16 bit CPU for DRM running on board s/w
3..All I/O

Where would your external soundcard get its input signal.

From the single chip CPU. The stream from the I/O would be blocked.

As long as there are buses connecting the hardware, there's still a chance. Normal or external PCI (Thunderbolt), or even USB audio adapters can receive data from the CPU, and unless the CPU (or at least the DRM part of it) scans ALL I/O for unwanted content, this is still a possibility.

[Ghitulescu]

1. Intel manufactures graphic cards :)
2. non-HW-accelerated reencodings/decodings/etc are painfully slow on older (and non-DRMed) systems
3. Microsoft already tried to get rid of alternative (in this case) sound drivers (the trustworthy ASIO & co) by proposing WASAPI. Since the audio stream MUST pass through WASAPI in order to get out from the system to AVR+Speakers, I see no difficulty in implementing the watermark detection there (it shouldn't be so hard, weaker GPU/CPUs of standalone do this currently). Microsoft licensed cinavia. For Xbox720 only? Why this hurry, as it will be sold only in 1.5 years?
4. There is since long time a requirement that all "sensible" parts of a system to be monolithic (no more soldering, no more bridging, no more cutting traces, no more test points etc.) to prevent tampering. AACS also requires this. HDCP requires this. "The weakest Link" can render the whole system "dead" or crippled.

[rotty]

As long as there are buses connecting the hardware, there's still a chance. Normal or external PCI (Thunderbolt), or even USB audio adapters can receive data from the CPU, and unless the CPU (or at least the DRM part of it) scans ALL I/O for unwanted content, this is still a possibility.

The Bus as you and I understand it at present wont exist. All I/O will be subject to the single chip.

[Ghitulescu]

Like Sigma Designs SoCs (http://www.sigmadesigns.com/uploads/documents/selection_guide.pdf). The only "access point" seems to be the DRAM, but this could be integrated as well or could hold only useless data. They are called "Secure Media Processors" for a reason, right?

[xenex]

The Sigma SoC chips implement a wide variety of functions, including decoding many audio formats, many video formats, and YES even Cinavia "detection." However, they cannot (and do not) implement Cinavia ENFORCEMENT. That part must be done within the firmware of the player itself. As has been seen recently with Cinavia ENFORCEMENT being recently added to a Sony and a Samsung player. The SoC can detect the watermark, but the firmware of the player may (or may not) bother to act on it.

-xenex

[ro-ee]

are we still talking about PCs or other single-chip-embedded devices? Even with the advent of all these tablet and whatever devices, where more and more users settle with a locked down system, I still do believe there will be computers like current PCs where you can start any software you want and plug in any hardware you like. The future is bleak for the other devices though, with secure boot and whatever, where only certified software will run, ruling out all self-compiled and not-so-off-the-shelf software and open source in general.

[Ghitulescu]

When I pointed to SoCs I knew they won't be that soon found in a PC. I wanted just to show the future (or the past). The intelligent periferics (like IDE) took over various functions a CPU once did. If the CPU in a eg Sinclair Spectrum did everything (including the timing for the optional floppy interface) except encoding the video, the much powerful CPUs of today can do it, too*. There is an initiative, whose name I've forgot ATM, to replace the old BIOS with a "trusted platform". Why? Because the old system allowed for bypassing whatever locks the modern OSes might want to put in.

So the technical solution to cinavia on PCs seems again to be "DON'T UPDATE, DON'T UPGRADE". Keep your system as it is now (if you're happy with) and away from internet.

*According to Verance, the detection routine doesn't need more than 10Mips, thus a Pentium class CPU would fully suffice.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL

Hi! Myself, I make MKV's of all my discs and play them using J River's MC17So, based on the current limitations of MKV, does your statement mean you'll be willing to purchase "Cinavia"-infected Blu-ray discs at retail, despite the fact that you may not be able to view "PIP" and possibly other "Extras" that you'll have paid for? (whether you'd like to or not)

[SamuriHL]

@SamuriHL

Hi! So, based on the current limitations of MKV, does your statement mean you'll be willing to purchase "Cinavia"-infected Blu-ray discs at retail, despite the fact that you may not be able to view "PIP" and possibly other "Extras" that you'll have paid for? (whether you'd like to or not)

That's correct. I don't generally care about so called "extras". And if I want to watch them, I can just as easily pop the original in a licensed player and call it good. I generally care about having the movie on my HTPC's so I can watch the main movie across my gigabit network. I get what you're asking, though, and it's a fair point. But for me, the answer is yes, I will accept the limitations of MKV.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL
I get what you're asking, though, and it's a fair point.Thanks for replying ;>}

I asked so that the answer to my question would be posted for all to read - so that no one might be misled into thinking that your procedures would result in a viewable "Full Disc" Blu-ray backup...

[SamuriHL]

@SamuriHL
Thanks for replying ;>}

I asked so that the answer to my question would be posted for all to read - so that no one might be misled into thinking that your procedures would result in a viewable "Full Disc" Blu-ray backup...

Yes, that's completely fair to point out. My method will only do movie only backups. The method for anyone wanting full disc backups is to create an ISO file (or rip to folder *IF* your chosen player supports that function), mount the ISO (if created), and open it with a *non-cinavia* version of a commercial software player like TMT, PDVD, or WinDVD. This is why I recommend keeping the old versions around in case you need them. That should keep you in movie heaven, with all the extras, for quite some time.