"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[rotty]

@b66pak

Hi!

Just to be clear, have you personally backed up a commercial Blu-ray of "Karate Kid"? If so, did you receive the same error message "3" mentioned by SamuriHL? Does the back of the packaging actually have "Protected by Cinavia" accompanied by a logo?

Thank you ;>}


Because of the way Cinavia modulation works, it is possible that a disk without Cinavia watermark could trigger the Cinavia detetction.

If anybody reading this has a proven Cinavia enabled PS3, would be kind enough to play an older BD-R (NOT ROM), a disk known to be free of Cinavia embeded watermark, a disk with high ammount of movie music throughout the Movie, orchesteral music is best and see if you get any Cinavia message.

[setarip_old]

@rotty

Hi!

You've quoted my post to "b66pak"- so please explain what your post has to do with my post?

[ron spencer]

maybe a mistake setarip...does it really matter?

[setarip_old]

maybe a mistake setarip...does it really matter?Maybe "Yes" or maybe "No" - only "rotty" knows at the moment ;>}

[Ghitulescu]

Because of the way Cinavia modulation works, it is possible that a disk without Cinavia watermark could trigger the Cinavia detetction.

That was foreseen: this is why there is a repetitive watermark and this is why the trigger is activated only after a certain amount of time and [maybe false] positive detections. The detection is therefore quite precise.

[rotty]

That was foreseen: this is why the is a repetitive watermark and this is why the trigger is activated only after a certain amount of time and [maybe false] positive detections. The detection is therefore quite precise.

Yes this is true, however, once the threshold number of triggers have occoured within the designated time it will assume a watermaked disk.

A non embeded disk can do this with no watermark.

[Ghitulescu]

One of the causes of the relatively insignificant impact both DVD-Audio and SACD had was this watermarking. Both DVD-Audio and the SACD were directed to audiophiles, people that claim they can spot the differences between music at 192kHz and 96kHz and so on. Those people have spent incredible amounts of money on high end gear and expected high quality music. Either placebo or not, the watermarking annoyed them, so the sales dropped if ever launched :). This is logic in illogic ;)

So I came back to one of my posts and say we can stop it or at least delay it.

[rotty]

One of the causes of the relatively insignificant impact both DVD-Audio and SACD had was this watermarking. Both DVD-Audio and the SACD were directed to audiophiles, people that claim they can spot the differences between music at 192kHz and 96kHz and so on. Those people have spent incredible amounts of money on high end gear and expected high quality music. Either placebo or not, the watermarking annoyed them, so the sales dropped if ever launched :). This is logic in illogic ;)

So I came back to one of my posts and say we can stop it or at least delay it.

I have always said, we do have power, in fact ultimate power if we use it.

[SamuriHL]

It'll be a lot easier if they do in fact start putting the Cinavia logo on discs like they did for Karate Kid. :)

[mike20021969]

I am alone!
Thanks for your useful information!
Great Job!
I find your 3 posts, and signature link, suspicious.
(Very similar to SPAM appearing on SlySoft forum).
Or is it me?


One to watch maybe?: http://forum.doom9.org/member.php?u=188832

[rotty]

Now I know you shouldnt post an entry after a wine or two but "K Kid" protected with Cinavia, whatever for.

[rotty]

I dont know if there are any leagal issues, but what a great oppertunity for XBox to fit a Blu Ray drive to their games console and allow all formats (AVCHD etc) Cinavia free.

As I understand it, the games capability PS3 vs XBox is about parr so they could clean up.

[Ghitulescu]

So you want another trial for Microsoft? :) ;) :) ;)

[rotty]

So you want another trial for Microsoft? :) ;) :) ;)

LOL well he can afford it.

[Nalios]

It's been reported that on the back of the clamshell package, near the bottom, you'll see "Protected by Cinavia" accompanied by a logo.

Has anyone made a backup copy from an original, commercial "Karate Kid" Blu-ray and played it on a known affected firmware-updated PS3 (or one of the two or three other known affected standalone players).

If so, please describe what happened when you played the copy...
In response to your questions yes the clam shell has the Cinivia logo on it.. both the cardbaord sleeve and the back of the insert cover along with all the other trademark logos etc..

All my blu-rays are backed up to hard drive and I stream them to the PS3 to save wear and tear on the discs and the ps3 itself (especially after hearing reports of the laser failing in some.)

The Karate Kid does trigger the Cinavia message after aprox 20 minutes when streaming. Which was the first time I had heard of the *expletive* thing! It's what prompted me to come looking
here and Afterdawn for info. Had never even heard of it until the message popped up. Damn me for updating my firmware.

However for streaming to the ps3 there is a ridiculously simple work around. (Tested and confirmed with the Karate Kid at least.) I don't own the Losers so someone else would have to test it on that.

For a disc made for use with the ps3 it should work the exact same way. No idea if it's possible with a standalone as the ps3 allows for the workaround itself.

[Inspector.Gadget]

However for streaming to the ps3 there is a ridiculously simple work around.

You're going to say that and not post what the workaround is?

[Nalios]

Call me paranoid of a firmware update to fix it..

[Jeremy Duncan]

That's not fair. Tell us how you did it.

[happycase]

I'm no expert but can't you bitstream with the PS3 and not decode the audio internally?

Also, maybe someone can check, but are Karate Kid and Losers both multi-language discs? Has anyone determined in Cinavia is on a Chinese or Spanish track?

[lithiumus]

I'm no expert but can't you bitstream with the PS3 and not decode the audio internally?

Also, maybe someone can check, but are Karate Kid and Losers both multi-language discs? Has anyone determined in Cinavia is on a Chinese or Spanish track?

Even when you select bitstream output, the PS3 still decodes internally and will detect Cinavia.

[asarian]

What's this then?

Motherboard with onboard Cinavia? (http://www.asus.nl/product.aspx?P_ID=Gdf0vtpVf72LTYgs&templete=2)

What do I see under Specs -> Audio? "BD Audio Layer Content Protection." I hope that's not built-in Cinavia, otherwise I can kiss my new, prospective HTPC goodbye.

[SamuriHL]

Most likely that's referring to Protected Audio Path, not Cinavia. Further to that, Cinavia *MUST* be done at the player level.

[8ternity]

I've read over some bb that we can put back AACS keys back to the movie and burn it and cinavia protection detect that AACS is on the disc and not enable it. I wonder if anyone test it and if it's working or not, and with wich software that we can add back AACS to our backup disc?

[SamuriHL]

I've read over some bb that we can put back AACS keys back to the movie and burn it and cinavia protection detect that AACS is on the disc and not enable it. I wonder if anyone test it and if it's working or not, and with wich software that we can add back AACS to our backup disc?

I don't know where you read this, but, it's not possible.

[Ghitulescu]

Maybe that guys own a replication factory :)

[SamuriHL]

Maybe that guys own a replication factory :)

That'd be the only way. :) A BD-R/E can't have AACS burned to it as a writeable disc doesn't have the ability to hold the information needed to decrypt the content. So, the idea of writing a disc with AACS on it is silly. Unless, of course, you can commercially press them. :D

[dirio49]

Well, not true.
We have the Japanese tv shows that have aacc.
and the vid is the disk id or something like that.

[Peer van Heuen]

Well, not true.
We have the Japanese tv shows that have aacc.
and the vid is the disk id or something like that.

Which is in fact an interesting thought...
If you can make a BDAV recorder record cinavia material to a BD-R, applying AACS, it would be interesting to see what the outcome is....

[SamuriHL]

Which is in fact an interesting thought...
If you can make a BDAV recorder record cinavia material to a BD-R, applying AACS, it would be interesting to see what the outcome is....

Uhhhhhh, HMMMMMM. I have to admit, that's not something I ever considered. That's rather interesting indeed!

[rotty]

Which is in fact an interesting thought...
If you can make a BDAV recorder record cinavia material to a BD-R, applying AACS, it would be interesting to see what the outcome is....

Im sure I dont need to say this but the problem is of course is that there would be nothing to stop an update that would check "Disk Type" i.e. check if its a ROM as opposed to BD-R/RE.

If that happened, then a burned disk with Cinavia emdedded could be classed as Non Valid.

Peer I know you wouldnt want to say too much but the feeling is that ALL the usual suspects (including Slysoft) arent sounding very optomistic re removal/disruption of Cinavia.

Thats not a complaint or knock its just the feel.

[asarian]

Im sure I dont need to say this but the problem is of course is that there would be nothing to stop an update that would check "Disk Type" i.e. check if its a ROM as opposed to BD-R/RE.


I believe it was Neuron2 himself who suggested maybe we really shouldn't talk in public about how to break it, if possible, and wait revealing stuff until the industry has committed itself far enough to have reached the point of no return.

Just sayin' I suddenly see the wisdom in those words now. :)

[rotty]

I believe it was Neuron2 himself who suggested maybe we really shouldn't talk in public about how to break it, if possible, and wait revealing stuff until the industry has committed itself far enough to have reached the point of no return.

Just sayin' I suddenly see the wisdom in those words now. :)

Hi Asarian

Yes I do of course understand that, its the general feel with this one that I was talking about, obviously, if there were a fix then we dont want it out there yet, or near future.

The feel I have is that everybody is talking in "Digital" terms with this marking. Of course, most experts in this field are digital.

A totally analogue understanding of Cinavia is required before a digital approach to remove/disrupt it is possible.

[b66pak]

it looks like its gaining speed...the last score is a very big title: Angelina's "SALT" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944835/)...
_

[k-c-ksum]

Resident Evil Afterlife is also cinavia marked. Sony releases trickling through, soon it will be a flood

[b66pak]

we are talking BD RETAIL ONLY here, so NO ts, r5, screeners or cam...
_

[k-c-ksum]

we are talking BD RETAIL ONLY here, so NO ts, r5, screeners or cam...
_


Res Evil afterlife 2 and 3d RETAIL cinavia marked

[sporic]

check this out:

http://ipb.quicksilverscreen.com/index.php?showtopic=224950

[kypec]

check this out:
http://ipb.quicksilverscreen.com/index.php?showtopic=224950
It's too easy to be true and besides, it's been posted in July already. I just can't believe that if this solution was effective it wouldn't be all over internet by now, sorry.

[sporic]

for goodness sake, I'm not asking you to take their word. try it out and see what happens would be a good idea.

[derbeDeus]

check this out:

http://ipb.quicksilverscreen.com/index.php?showtopic=224950

that's pure bs. it's been said thousands of times that it is so, simply because it cannot work. whoever understands what cinavia is will find any solution like that equivalent to voodoo.

[kurkosdr]

Just to sum it up, is there ANY way to get rid of Cinavia for a given file as of this date?

What if we mute the audio segments that have the cinavia watermark? A clumsy solution, but it's should do the job.

The best solution IMO is to find the noise pattern that gets embedded in the audio during the mastering stage. I mean, there's got to be a noise pattern. Either a pattern of analog ticks, or a pattern of analog hisses, or pink noise, or whatever.

Like rotty, I too believe that Cinavia is completely analog in nature, because it can survive recording from a microphone. I think that the glorious cinavia watermark is nothing more than a noise signal mixed to the audio track with a tool like Audacity. Nothing more.

If we can only find the pattern, then we can remove it, by doing the exact reverse procedure. So, it can be done.

[setarip_old]

@sporic

Hi!

You're repeating earlier postings to this thread (including mine). Click on the following link:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1421456&postcount=109

[setarip_old]

Is this possibly a solution for updated PS3 users (at a price)?

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Firmware-Downgrades-Available-for-the-PlayStation-3-with-New-Jailbreak-Tech-166699.shtml

[SamuriHL]

Definitely a HUGE price to pay. But interesting nonetheless.

[Klendathu]

What we know:


Cinavia triggers after a certain time
Cinavia triggers in shorter intervals if you stop and resume, meaning the first trigger delay is software based.
Cinavia is not fooled by skipping around, meaning it must always be there
Cinavia cannot be removed by transcoding the audio to another format, meaning it is NOT a digital watermark
Cinavia does not require an active internet connection, meaning it is in the file.
Cinavia cannot be heard
Cinavia cannot be removed by removing some of the channels


Let's take a look at the soundfile then:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5334/49809333.png (http://img204.imageshack.us/i/49809333.png/)


What you see is a five minute snapshot of a Cinavia movie I legally own. No copyprotection had to be circumvented in the creation of this picture. What you should notice is the stripe at 15khz. The intensity varies, but no matter what you do, it is always there. Zoom in closer and it'll appear where you thought it was not. Look at any part of the movie in this way and it will be there. A stripe means there is a concurrent sound of the same frequency from one frame to the next. This stripe is in the entire dts file from beginning to end on all channels except the lfc. This means that this is an artificial analogue signal. With everything else being digital, why should there be something like that? Because you would transcode it to ac3, mp3 or any other format. A watermark you copy, instead of stripping it away like you do with all the other digital watermarks. The one thing Cinavia does, what other watermarks don't. You cannot hear it, either because your hearing does no longer respond to 15khz, or if it still does, the sound is almost muted. But it is there, from beginning to end, if anything, this is what the software responds to. I took a look on some movies which are not Cinavia protected and none of them has any of those crazy 15khz stripes.

You know, if the shoe fits... ...this is Cinavia and it takes two clicks to strip. It is concurrent with some myths about how people supposedly stripped Cinavia by running weird filters. It is very easy to program a software to filter out such a signal, by comparison, looking for inaudible echoes is ghastly.

I am tempted to go out and buy more Cinavia protected movies to confirm this, but I trust one of you can either prove my theory or tear me a new one on how wrong I am.

[Ghitulescu]

What we know:


Cinavia triggers after a certain time
Cinavia triggers in shorter intervals if you stop and resume, meaning the first trigger delay is software based.
Cinavia is not fooled by skipping around, meaning it must always be there
Cinavia cannot be removed by transcoding the audio to another format, meaning it is NOT a digital watermark
Cinavia does not require an active internet connection, meaning it is in the file.
Cinavia cannot be heard
Cinavia cannot be removed by removing some of the channels


Cinavia does not trigger anything. The system recognises the pattern embedded into the audio and has the liberty to trigger anytime its manufacturer decides. The system itself recognises the cinavia in few seconds, but has to wait several times more, in order to avoid the false detection.

The same for the second item.

Still the same for the third item.

Cinavia is part of the audio, if you scroll back to some of my posts you'll find there their own words describing this.

Cinavia can be heard, the movies generally are louder/noisier and this could mask the 15kHz noise or whatever pattern they use.

===========

All your deductions could have been "skipped" if you have had the willingness to read the patents.

However, thank you for showing us the histogram of a cinavia sound. :goodpost:

[mike20021969]

What you should notice is the stripe at 15khz....I took a look on some movies which are not Cinavia protected and none of them has any of those crazy 15khz stripes.
I thought that even if the audio quality was reduced to that of a mobile phone or AM radio, Cinavia could still be detected?

[SamuriHL]

I thought that even if the audio quality was reduced to that of a mobile phone or AM radio, Cinavia could still be detected?

Yes, it can.

[kurkosdr]

You know, if the shoe fits... ...this is Cinavia and it takes two clicks to strip. It is concurrent with some myths about how people supposedly stripped Cinavia by running weird filters. It is very easy to program a software to filter out such a signal, by comparison, looking for inaudible echoes is ghastly.
Thanks for the bunch of info. You 've practically cracked Cinavia entirely by yourself. :)

If you can make such program, the entire internet will be patting you on the back.


This reminds me of an auto switch off technology marketed some years ago, where a TV would automatically switch off itself when you switched off the VCR. How they did it? The VCR simply inserted a special pulse at the vblank of the composite signal. The aforementioned TVs would look for said signal, pick it up, and proceed to switch off themselves. Ordinary TVs would just ignore such signal.

WSS and CGMS-A work in a similar way, and both need a device that's 'signal-aware' to work.

Yup, the idea behind Cinavia is that much old. Only that instead of being a pulse/bit sequense inserted in some blank area, it's a noise pattern inserted in the audio waveform. Obviously, this was done so the signal can survive conversion (either to analog or to other format).
But the basics are the same. The device looks for the pattern, picks it up, and proceeds to switch off/stop playback. This proves that, like many other copy protection schemes from Hollywood, cinavia is a pretty old idea held secret through obscurity and tight non-disclosure agreements.

Again, thanks for Klendathu for finding it out.

[laserfan]

I thought that even if the audio quality was reduced to that of a mobile phone or AM radio, Cinavia could still be detected?

Yes, it can.
Then there must be more to this or else a "simple" notch filter at 15kHz oughta remove it, right? I for one would not likely tell such an excision has been made from the original.