"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection [Archive] - Page 3

mustardman

5th March 2014, 02:36

I'm betting somebody knows something. I find it rather interesting, that $ony is the only company massively supporting Cinavia. I suspect other companies may be aware of a possible circumvention. Hopeful thinking? Conspiracy theory? Perhaps. But then, perhaps the other companies are being asked to pay a ridiculous sum of money to employ it? One thing's for sure. If ALL the companies were suddenly using it, there would exist an even larger need, to circumvent it. Myself, I don't even give it much thought. None of my devices support detection. Though I do find this "irreversible" protection scheme intriguing.

I don't believe in the no win scenario... :p

From my reading on the matter, the licencing fees that Verance charges are truly extraordinary! Like 10K to 300K, and then per film and per disc charges on top of that. None other than a large studio could afford what they charge! Perhaps I should have taken out shares...

-- RANT BEGIN --

Am I the only one that finds it interesting / disturbing that $ony is the ONLY company that not only makes content (movies/music) but also makes technology (players/recorders). It comes as absolutely no surprise that they are one of the main perpertrators in the DRM scene. Just think back slightly to the '$ony rootkit fiasco'.

I personally will NEVER buy a $ony product. They continually push their own proprietry formats (beta, mini-disc, memorystick, DAT, and the list goes on) and don't allow other manufacturers (with incredibly few exceptions) to make equipment that uses their technology.

I know people who (sadly) only buy $ony because of their reputation in quality. I also have a damn good laugh when they pay top dollar for a system that bugs out with some DRM issue that my cheapie no-name brand cobbled together system works just fine with!

That $ony are right on board with Verance and Cinavia comes as absolutely no surprise.

-- RANT OVER --

What does interest me is rather than removing cinavia from a stream, is actually reading cinavia from a stream. And then being able to add my own 'cinavia' like data to the stream.

Sure, one method of defeating this horrible DRM scheme is to remove it, but another is adding 'scrambling' data to the cinavia stream so the BD (etc) reader can't figure out what it is getting.

There would be other uses as well, like embedding useful information into an audio stream rather than just the DRM crap that studios force upon us mere 'mortals'.

Cheers,
MM

Ghitulescu

5th March 2014, 09:08

From my reading on the matter, the licencing fees that Verance charges are truly extraordinary! Like 10K to 300K, and then per film and per disc charges on top of that. None other than a large studio could afford what they charge! Perhaps I should have taken out shares...
Well, the situation is a bit different, yet you hit the nail in the head.
The consortium has agreed that cinavia will be mandatory. Also the fees are generally "solved" internally.

That means that not only Verance has to gain from this, but also the studios, because this way they prevent a newcomer from entering the club.
Because, in the DVD world, one could optionally implement eg CSS, let alone other protections, ie he was not forced to pay CSS royalties.

mustardman

5th March 2014, 09:35

Now that is something that I didn't even consider...!

It really does turn the whole bunch of them into one big club. The RIAA & MPAA were bad enough by themselves, now they are making DVD manufacturers join the club!

What we need is an insider to release the tech details so we can have our way with it... remove it, or turn it into something that is actually useful!

MM

Ghitulescu

5th March 2014, 10:06

What we need is an insider to release the tech details so we can have our way with it... remove it, or turn it into something that is actually useful!

I am tired of repeating that the algorithms are public for years (2006-2007).

mustardman

5th March 2014, 11:09

Ghitulescu

5th March 2014, 13:32

Hmmm, my apologies. I didn't realise that. Has anyone done anything with those tech details... apart from DVDranger?

Also, additional apologies for my assertion earlier, Verance charges BD-player makers between 10K and 300K per licence (according to wikipedia), not studios. My suspicion is that the studios have to cough a LOT more than that, I don't think that Verance would settle for only charging for an occasional 'track' encoding, even with the per-disc charges added on top. Certainly not when the studios are rolling in it.

After all, if Verance spent 10 years developing it (wikipedia again), that amount of R&D would not come cheap.

MM
The official sources are the patents Verance filed since 2003 or so. Cinavia cannot be reverse engineered, at least not like it was tried by amateurs. I doubt DVD Ranger would get something out of it in due time, let alone the legal complications that may follow.

The research power (man-hours) was not that problematic, as the algorithms were already known, all of them, Verance took the the unfinished work of SDMI and tested it against a few common methods the "damn pirates" usually employ (like conversion to MP3).

The whole issue is to let the audio unchanged while removing the "noise". And since this is quite impossible now, the only weapon against this is the boycott. The problem with boycott is that no alternative exists - this is the power of monopole.

Kerry56

6th March 2014, 18:56

DVDRanger has released a version of their software that works reasonably well. Not HD level audio, but far better than anything else. There's been a lot of discussion on what it does exactly.

http://club.myce.com/f62/dvd-ranger-releases-cinex-hd-promises-unsurpassed-sound-quality-335484/

His database files do contain full length versions of the movie soundtrack. Mangled, but easily recognized as part of those movies. I just don't see how they are going to survive any legal challenge to distributing copyright protected material.

Ghitulescu

7th March 2014, 09:54

They will survive as AnyDVD does :)

Nevertheless I see a problem in having an online database. First of all, anyone can monitor who's accessing it (and combined with BD-live to identify the legal owners and the pirates - even if the detection is false one can still have problems). Secondly, the provider of the database may be legally forced to close it or the IP might be blocked. A third aspect is that a computer has to have access to internet (I won't repeat why).

rotty

7th March 2014, 22:54

DVDRanger system

The "so called database" is purely a collection of scrambled (so they don't look like audio files) AC3 audio files that are NOT Cinavia infected.

These files only contain the middle frequencies (cut off at 4K) and therefore are relatively small.

The process works by replacing the middle frequencies of your original sound track and uses your original track for the upper and lower frequencies.

The result is a very average quality AC3 audio track, (and of course it is AC3 no matter what your original format was).

This is NOT a cure nor is Cinavia cracked in any way.

SamuriHL

8th March 2014, 01:56

Guest

8th March 2014, 02:52

Seems to me they don't have the right to distribute these things. Anyone trying to discuss specific files here risks rule 6. General concepts, OK, but please don't start talking about specific files. We don't want to jeopardise this forum. Thank you.

rotty

8th March 2014, 12:48

I'm not defending them with this next statement, BUT, we can't know for CERTAIN how they obtain the mid-range Cinavia free audio. It's entirely possible that they're using their removal process to generate it. I grant you this isn't overly LIKELY, but, since NONE of us know for SURE, we have to at least entertain the possibility that they're generating it instead of ripping it from Cinavia free sources.

That all being said, it's AC3 and not HD audio and therefore not a solution I personally accept.

Hi Samuri

It is possible that they are generating the Watermark Free audio themselves, but if that is the case, I would have thought we would NOT need the "Database", all this could be done on our own PC's running their s/w.

i.e., their s/w running on our PC could strip the middle frequencies from our audio, process it, then mix back.

Obviously, a "pre processed" version does offer a speed advantage, but as Neuron says, very very dodgy legal issues. If I remember correctly, reading the posts, there was an option on their s/w for this, im not sure, but I don't think anybody got it to work.

Also, I totally agree, AC3, plus the distortions in the processed middle frequencies, is NOT acceptable.

SamuriHL

8th March 2014, 14:18

Guest

11th March 2014, 19:09

An item originally posted here by Ch3vr0n was moved to News:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=170339

Please let's not start a discussion here about legal issues. This thread continues to be about the technical aspects of Cinavia.

johndough

24th March 2014, 12:34

They've said they may offer it as a cuda driven process in the future. If they do then you'll be able to process your own titles. Right now they're saying it takes 3 hours per 30 minutes of audio to process. So they created the database with what they call a "first pass". Given that it supports under 20 titles so far and there are 127 titles with Cinavia and growing, well, the math doesn't work out well at present.

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lol, Don't be so gullible. DVD ranger hasn't broken anything. They are likely using the old fashion technique, "audio replacement" which was used when Cinavia became a nuisance. mark my words: you will never see manual Cinavia removal with clear quality coming from them.

SamuriHL

24th March 2014, 12:55

lol, Don't be so gullible. DVD ranger hasn't broken anything. They are likely using the old fashion technique, "audio replacement" which was used when Cinavia became a nuisance. mark my words: you will never see manual Cinavia removal with clear quality coming from them.

Who said I was gullible? I never said I believed it one way or the other. I simply repeated what they claim. I have zero intention of purchasing their "solution" regardless of how it works as the end result is not hd audio. Cinavia removal with lost quality is pointless IMO. Avoidance with no loss in quality is far simpler. For the record I'm highly skeptical we'll see them release support for a movie that doesn't already contain a non-cinavia ac3 track. I'll leave it at that.

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johndough

26th March 2014, 13:21

This is in case you wanna stick to a Cinavia infected machine:
currently a solution to remove cinavia that has become viable for most users is: using Audacity, just extract the audio from the video, run Audacity and load the audio file from the video source then, go to 'effect' go to change pitch you will see percent change enter: negative 13 and simply press 'OK' export to desired audio output and mux to video. :cool: It's totally free.

Ch3vr0n

27th March 2014, 01:22

not that audacity crap again. That's not a solution, thats a workarround and it distorts the audio

Ghitulescu

27th March 2014, 11:21

That's an improvement since the last "efficient" way of removing cinavia required a change in pitch of -14 :)
I maintain my comments and happy watching Alvin and the Chipmunks

1Bullet

1st June 2014, 03:43

Rant
First let me start by saying "If Sony wants to Install Cinavia into their Movies so I can't Back them up! Then they should provide a Lifetime Warranty to evryone who purchases their BD's for what ever reason including physical damage. Unit then I will continue to work to find A hack or a fix for Cinavia.
End of Rant

I have been focusiing my efforts on the the firmware of the the standalone Blu-ray players and still am.
Before I was working on something similar to Possible DVD rangers Cinex. I was comparing the DVD audio to the Bluray audio. Then creating a patch. Then running the patch against the Blu-ray audio. Unfortunatley this did not work as it to damaged the audio.
I just got the DVDRanger Database of their Exe's. I found I could you the trial version if I had installed the Exe's. So I tried to do a back up of my disc of Zero Dark 30. First if not mention elsewhere. DVDRanger will only allow for Movie only and will under size the video. Could have been me too but don't think so. It will convert DTS MA to AC3 or DD 5.1 at 640kb/sec.
On the trial version it Places the DVDRanger Logo and Trial version onto the Vidio in the centre for the entire movie. Geat trial you get nothing for your work. However I demux the Audio and Remuxed both My Stream with their Audio. So in short I now have a remuxed Zer0 Dark 30 that is Cinavia free.
Then I started to look at DVDRangers Database. I only own 8 of the 100 that they have released. In the 8, I own the DVD is exactly the same size as the the blu-ray. Minute by minute and no changes between them. They are exactly the same movies. So this got me wondering are the just offerring the DVD audio and remuxing it back into the Blu-ray?
I am waiting for their release of some movies like Total Recall with Colin Farrell which are not exactly the same, scenes have been added and shortened so audio will not sync.
This just my thoughts but may bay some one else can comment on the other 92 releases.

laserfan

1st June 2014, 13:38

If Sony wants to Install Cinavia into their Movies so I can't Back them up! Then they should provide a Lifetime Warranty to evryone who purchases their BD's for what ever reason including physical damage.

I'm not sure if I've seen this put quite this way before but... absolutely right!

Ch3vr0n

1st June 2014, 22:21

@1bullet: testing of their solution seems to indicate that are just replacing part of the audio with that of a cinavia free source. So they are in a away distributing copyrighted content themselves and not defeated anything. You also lose dts, last time I checked that still couldn't output to surround sound and if they could only Dolby digital not DTS.

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1Bullet

2nd June 2014, 00:23

@ Ch3vr0n

I think DVDRanger is only providing a DD 5.1 audio track off the DVD and there software just remixes it back into the Blu-ray. I could do this too. But I can only confirm this on: Friends with Benefits
White House Down
Olympus Has Fallen
Moneyball
Elysium
Captain Phillips
American Hustle
Zero Dark 30

These 8 are my discs with a DVD available with Matching Audio Tracks in DD 5.1 .

I am looking for info on the other 90 or so. If they have a matching audio track.
I will list all of DVD rangers data base as of now.

Resident Evil: Afterlife
The Ides of March
This is the End
White House Down
Olympus Has Fallen
After Earth
Moneyball
Smurfs 2
Elysium
Django Unchanged
LastVegas
Cloudy with a chance of Meatballs 2
Captain Philips
In a World…
The Company You Keep
Smurfs
Austenland
Battle Of The Year
Grown Ups 2
21 Jump Street
Zero Dark Thirty
Here Comes The Boom
Hotel Transilvania
Blue Jasmine
American Hustle
Oldboy
Men In Black 3
Kill Your Darlings
Cold Comes The Night
Ironman Rise Of Technovore
The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo
Friends With Benefits
Priest
The Hungover Games
Wadja
Colombiana
Green Hornet
The Mortal Instruments: City of Bones
The Past
The Social Network
Resident Evil: Retribution
Battle: Los Angeles
30 Mins Or Less
Insidious: Chapter 2
Midnight In Paris
The Losers
The Amazing Spider-Man
Adventures in Zambezia
Resident Evil: Damnation
Dead Man Down
Bonnie & Clyde
Arthur Christmas
The Pirates! Band of Misfits
Larry Crowne
Straw Dogs
Restless
Seven Psychopaths
Parker
Evil Dead
Bad Country
Company of Heroes
Detention
I’m So Excited!
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance
Looper
Starship Troopers: Invasion
The Raid: Redemption
The Karate Kid
About Last Night New
The Monuments Men New
That Awkward Moment New
Pompeii New

DVDRanger says they attached to the Cinavia watermark and then replaces it.
My question to them (DVDRanger) is how do you attach to the watermark, when no one but Verance and Sony can even find or see it ,in the in the Audio as they have the expensive tools to see it.
I Challenge DVD ranger Give me your command line tool you are offering future so I can test. If you are not just replacing the Blu-ray Audio with the Clean DVD audio I should be able to tell. I will even buy your Cinex-HD CMD line tool when it becomes available if you are not spoofing people.

Ghitulescu

2nd June 2014, 09:25

"If Sony wants to Install Cinavia into their Movies so I can't Back them up! Then they should provide a Lifetime Warranty to evryone who purchases their BD's for what ever reason including physical damage. Unit then I will continue to work to find A hack or a fix for Cinavia.
Why?

Do you have such a warranty on your car? On other media, like CDs or DVDs? Or even on analogue media, like vinyls? On software, in particular with games, which are the pendants to BD in terms of copyright rights and exceptions?

1Bullet

7th June 2014, 20:48

Why?

Do you have such a warranty on your car? On other media, like CDs or DVDs? Or even on analogue media, like vinyls? On software, in particular with games, which are the pendants to BD in terms of copyright rights and exceptions?

I don't like your example but I will argue it. All manufatures of cars offer at least a one year of warranty. And it it is bumper to bumper. You are also given the opportunity to purchase a extended warranty. Even in the USA they also have the Lemon Law on cars. So if manufacture sell you somethine with a problem that reoccurs 3 times to can return vehicle. So this is my case on vehicles.

I didn't thinlk my Rant would be the topic now. LOL

But I feel Cinavia is more like going to your local coffee shop.
You want a coffee, you drink it black, but at the Sony coffee shop you get your coffee there way. 3 sugar 3 cream but you don't want it this way . Too bad they bought up most of their commpetion you get it their way or nothing.
So you are now trying to figure out how to get the sugar and cream out and have your black coffee.

I will use this as an example I own the BD + DVD combo movieThe Fighter with Mark Wallburg. The pointers on the orginal disc have issue and on my player the Audio goes blank after 55 minutes. So I now have to choise take BD to end and rewind it. to 10 seconds after and watch it. Or back up a remux of it and it plays perfect. Which my remux does!

Try taking it back to Best Buy. You opened it you own it.
Now I did try contact Paramount, since the Movie did this from the first time I watched it. At least "a piss off "from them would have been nice- no responce. Now this movie has nothing to do wih Sony, but at least I could get a working copy.
With Sony they do not have to play by the lemon laws so take your car and park it forever its not your car anyway.

I think I have more rights with my car at least when I buy it. I own it and other than dealing with the police, I have the rights to change color , wreck it , modify it, my choice. I own this the car and have some rights. Sony and all the other studio's you lease the movie and have to follow their rules or you are a criminal. And its not yours. I am just glad Sony doesn't make cars yet.

I am not saying I support piracy by any means and I know Sony has this as their arguement. They say its their right to stop pirated copies.
However Sony missleads everyone into believing for every pirate copy that watched a dowloaded version of their film they lost a sale. This argument has about as much validity as me blaming a car manufaturers for using cheap steal and is why my invisible paint wont stay on my car.

@Ghitulescu -Using my coffee agumentment so you are now longer a coffee drinker, and thats ok, cause the Son'y coffee shop has to protected there shops.

Now Enough of this.

Has anyone used DVD Ranger with the Internet Blocked?
I will do another rip and convert is no answer in the next few days, or anyhing else to do with Cinavia.

Cienoway

8th June 2014, 18:20

**EDIT - Truncated URLs Fixed

As I mentioned in another thread, the following appears to indicate that Foobar/Foobar2000 has the capability of identifying and eliminating audio watermarking (Post #3):

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1302992#post1302992

Although this is applicable to audio DVDs (DVD-A), if it works, it might provide some insight regarding the workings of the "Verance"/"Cinavia" watermarking methodology, as well as possibly eliminate the need to perform some testing that has already been done.This, in addition to the 2001 white paper at:

http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/sec01/craver.pdf

might provide a significant "leg up" in analysis...

How come nobody has followed up on these two leads over the years?

1Bullet

14th June 2014, 05:54

How come nobody has followed up on these two leads over the years?

Trying this as I type will report back.

onedev

28th July 2014, 22:51

DVDRanger says they attached to the Cinavia watermark and then replaces it.
My question to them (DVDRanger) is how do you attach to the watermark, when no one but Verance and Sony can even find or see it ,in the in the Audio as they have the expensive tools to see it.

Why only Verance can see Cinavia? It is not a big deal to see Cinavia inside an audio track.

Ch3vr0n

29th July 2014, 00:40

Cause verance created cinavia lol, that's why.

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onedev

29th July 2014, 01:45

setarip_old

3rd August 2014, 23:22

rotty

4th August 2014, 16:15

Sure they are the makers but this do not say that they are the only ones who can read Cinavia. 1 Bullet wrote that we simple replace the audio from DVD to BD. But why he do not compare a DVD audio track with an BD audio track. Doing a reduction on them he will see what Cinavia is. This is more than simple. With some experience in audio processing he will also see the details in Cinavia. And finaly if he select the right movies, he will also find the big bug in Cinavia.

Look at post #333

Read it, do you think it would work.

Well prob not, the marked audio is slowly moving +/- in phase, only slightly but enough to give an output and making "cancellation technique" used to see differences useless.

Also, always remember, the Cinavia watermark is NOT a signal added to the audio, its an alteration of the existing audio, in other words, the signal IS the audio.

rik1138

7th August 2014, 02:11

Sure they are the makers but this do not say that they are the only ones who can read Cinavia. 1 Bullet wrote that we simple replace the audio from DVD to BD. But why he do not compare a DVD audio track with an BD audio track. Doing a reduction on them he will see what Cinavia is. This is more than simple. With some experience in audio processing he will also see the details in Cinavia. And finaly if he select the right movies, he will also find the big bug in Cinavia.

People already have the original source WAV files of some movies before and after Cinavia has been applied, so they can see exactly what is different between them... If there's a way to hack it from that, it'll be done (although that was last year that I heard that info, and nothing has come of it that I know of... :cool: )

onedev

6th September 2014, 01:03

People already have the original source WAV files of some movies before and after Cinavia has been applied, so they can see exactly what is different between them...

Sorry, if you have the original files where Cinavia was added to, then you can identify Cinavia with an ease. It is much more complicated if you compare a DVD track with an BD track but with some tools you can cut the tracks so they will fit and you can also compare. Sure it is much work and you have to go through different technological changes of the audio but finaly it is possible. So only why some experts are not able to do this, or do not want to invest this time, it is still possible.

If there's a way to hack it from that, it'll be done (although that was last year that I heard that info, and nothing has come of it that I know of... :cool: )

You can ignore it further, but there is a solution available. It is called CinEx HD. So sorry, it is done.

onedev

6th September 2014, 01:10

@onedev

Won't you be good enough to share "the big bug in Cinavia" with those of us who have unsuccessfully put a great deal of time and effort into attempting to thoroughly and completely resolve it? (Try reading this entire thread, the first post of which was made by me more than four years ago)

Tell me a good reason. We invested more than 12 months in working on this. The first generation of CinEx created bad 2 channel audio. The second generation (again 6 months+) creates high quality ac3.
The first generation was published on source forge as open source. This was removed in case of all this offense against us. So why we should publish the 2 generation?
Fact is, our solution works and the quality is the best you have ever heard on an Cinavia free audio track.

asarian

6th September 2014, 06:39

Tell me a good reason. We invested more than 12 months in working on this. The first generation of CinEx created bad 2 channel audio. The second generation (again 6 months+) creates high quality ac3.
The first generation was published on source forge as open source. This was removed in case of all this offense against us. So why we should publish the 2 generation?
Fact is, our solution works and the quality is the best you have ever heard on an Cinavia free audio track.

Fact is, even your allegedly 'magic' removal trick will require a re-encoding of the original bit-stream. With DTS-MA/TrueHD that's a big compromize.

Besides, isn't Cinavia dead already? Last time I got a disc with Cinavia on it was a long time ago.

setarip_old

6th September 2014, 06:41

Tell me a good reason.Because, since the inception of this thread, this has been a community effort, with almost all posts made to share any and all possibly pertinent information regarding overcoming "Cinavia"...

asarian

6th September 2014, 06:46

Because, since the inception of this thread, this has been a community effort, with almost all posts made to share any and all possibly pertinent information regarding overcoming "Cinavia"...

And a community effort is should remain! Not getting anyway what commercial, proprietary gain there is to be had for a DRM removal tool to start with. The community as a whole, I think, is best served with ppl simply sharing whatever they know about it.

kurkosdr

6th September 2014, 18:01

Fact is, even your allegedly 'magic' removal trick will require a re-encoding of the original bit-stream. With DTS-MA/TrueHD that's a big compromize.

Besides, isn't Cinavia dead already? Last time I got a disc with Cinavia on it was a long time ago.

Hoa! That's a big bomb you dropped right there. Did they really stop using Cinavia or you were just lucky to buy non-Cinavia'ed discs? This list displays 2014 movies as cinavia'ed though: http://viraltnt.blogspot.gr/2013/07/list-of-movies-that-have-cinavia-2013.html

ksio89

15th September 2014, 18:30

Does Cinavia protection only show up when you use an HTIB to play the video file watermarked with it? Consider two situations:

1-I connect an HTPC (using video card HDMI output) to the HTIB HDMI input in bitstream format, so its only function is to decode and play the audio, but not to play the video file itself. The video file (or a BD backup) will be played by a media player software like MPC-HC.

2-I Play this video file in a USB stick on a modern TV/monitor which can send HD audio stream to an HTIB or a receiver.

In either cases, will be Cinavia protection still present? Or only playing a watermarked file with the bultin player from HTIB with Cinavia support will trigger it?

ChiDragon

15th September 2014, 19:15

Audio receivers don't check for Cinavia, players do.

SeeMoreDigital

15th September 2014, 20:14

Out of interest...

Is there anybody out there working on ways to disable Cinavia by re-programming/re-flashing the Blu-ray players firmware?

asarian

15th September 2014, 20:53

Out of interest...

Is there anybody out there working on ways to disable Cinavia by re-programming/re-flashing the Blu-ray players firmware?

That's how I always figured it will be cracked. In fact, on firmware-level it's actually rather 'trivial.' If I remember correctly reading the specs properly (when it first came out), there's really only one or two bytes (!) that determine the carrier type (to check whether your content is being played on the appropriate device). A simple hook into that check will disable triggering the Cinavia alarm entirely. That's Cinavia's Achilles Heel.

Getting the firmware flashed will be harder, of course. :)

asarian

15th September 2014, 20:55

Audio receivers don't check for Cinavia, players do.

Not yet. :) When they do, we're all hopelessly screwed, of course. Or like when Intel decides to add Cinavia to their (motherboard) chipsets.

asarian

15th September 2014, 21:02

Hoa! That's a big bomb you dropped right there. Did they really stop using Cinavia or you were just lucky to buy non-Cinavia'ed discs? This list displays 2014 movies as cinavia'ed though: http://viraltnt.blogspot.gr/2013/07/list-of-movies-that-have-cinavia-2013.html

I no longer notice, as I'm using a Zbox media center, these days. :)

That list, though, honestly, with a few exceptions, consists mainly of B-movies. Still it's longer than I thought it would be.

SeeMoreDigital

15th September 2014, 21:06

Getting the firmware flashed will be harder, of course. :)For some newer Blu-ray players maybe...

But for all those people who own Blu-ray players that had Cinavia added to them via a firmware update 'after' their players were originally manufactured, there might be a way of removing or disabling it...

SamuriHL

19th September 2014, 05:10

Not yet. :) When they do, we're all hopelessly screwed, of course. Or like when Intel decides to add Cinavia to their (motherboard) chipsets.

I'm very curious how people think this is going to work. Since the beginning of Cinavia people have come out of the wood work to claim that it's going to be added to everything from receivers to tv's and hell probably the new moto 360 watch I'm sure. So the receiver detects Cinavia. Then what? Let me guess, mutes the audio right? Except how does the receiver, or any other piece of equipment that isn't the player, determine if it's a copy or an original? The player decrypts the streams sent to the receiver so the aacs encryption that the Cinavia algorithm looks for is long gone at that point. When this fact is pointed out to people they then create wild schemes of how the receiver will then communicate back to the player to ask it nicely if it's an original or not. Which is nice and all but not likely to happen on bluray at this point. The new 4k discs will likely have an all new drm scheme which will likely be an evolution of the current bluray drm. But even then it's likely simply going to require whatever upgraded drm be part of the player spec. There's already receivers and tv's out there that don't include any new drm scheme but do support 4k content.

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asarian

19th September 2014, 07:43

I'm very curious how people think this is going to work. Since the beginning of Cinavia people have come out of the wood work to claim that it's going to be added to everything from receivers to tv's and hell probably the new moto 360 watch I'm sure. So the receiver detects Cinavia. Then what? Let me guess, mutes the audio right? Except how does the receiver, or any other piece of equipment that isn't the player, determine if it's a copy or an original? The player decrypts the streams sent to the receiver so the aacs encryption that the Cinavia algorithm looks for is long gone at that point. When this fact is pointed out to people they then create wild schemes of how the receiver will then communicate back to the player to ask it nicely if it's an original or not. Which is nice and all but not likely to happen on bluray at this point.

Less wild than you may think. Or, I should say, as wild as HDCP is a "wild scheme." And Intel really has been toying with the idea of built-in DRM into their chips for quite a while. Not Cinavia, to be clear, but similarly convoluted "wild" handshake schemes that everyone thinks will never occur, but then tend to happen regardless.

So far it hasn't taken place yet. But requiring (hardware) media players out there, like PS3, to do Cinavia checks is no more far-streched than forcing motherboard manufacturers to do the same. And if you have a big bag of money, and buying laws is somehow legal (only in America, LOL), the improbable is always just around the corner.

Ghitulescu

19th September 2014, 07:46

I'm very curious how people think this is going to work. Since the beginning of Cinavia people have come out of the wood work to claim that it's going to be added to everything from receivers to tv's and hell probably the new moto 360 watch I'm sure. So the receiver detects Cinavia. Then what? Let me guess, mutes the audio right? Except how does the receiver, or any other piece of equipment that isn't the player, determine if it's a copy or an original? The player decrypts the streams sent to the receiver so the aacs encryption that the Cinavia algorithm looks for is long gone at that point. When this fact is pointed out to people they then create wild schemes of how the receiver will then communicate back to the player to ask it nicely if it's an original or not. Which is nice and all but not likely to happen on bluray at this point. The new 4k discs will likely have an all new drm scheme which will likely be an evolution of the current bluray drm. But even then it's likely simply going to require whatever upgraded drm be part of the player spec. There's already receivers and tv's out there that don't include any new drm scheme but do support 4k content.
As you correctly noticed, cinavia can only work at player basis. But the laptops and other things are used as players, not as bypass devices (like the AVRs). It would make sense to insert such detection routines there.

hello_hello

19th September 2014, 14:07

I'm very curious how people think this is going to work. Since the beginning of Cinavia people have come out of the wood work to claim that it's going to be added to everything from receivers to tv's and hell probably the new moto 360 watch I'm sure.

Yes, the Chicken Little claims have been around for quite a while.
It costs money to license Cinavia and doing so would make a product less attractive to consumers so it only makes sense to claim Cinavia might be included in devices such as laptops if you can explain who'd pay for it, why they'd want to pay for it, and how it would be included. Without that, it's nothing but speculation at best.
When it comes to Cinavia in other devices it's the same "all or nothing" principle as it is for Bluray players otherwise what would be the point?

Assuming this is accurate (http://blog.dvdfab.cn/cinavia-protection.html), the number of Bluray releases including Cinavia to date is 175. For DVD it's 15. That's a grand total of 190. A total of 190 in four years. And that doesn't include the titles in the list to which this disclaimer applies. I didn't count them, but a page search found 94 matches for "*".

* for those, in territories where the movie is not released by Warner Bros., Sony Pictures, 20th Century Fox, Universal Studios or Disney, the Blu-ray does not have Cinavia

Cinavia seems like it's pretty much a non-event to date. Nothing more than a bit of an inconvenience for owners of recently purchased Bluray players.

Anyone know.....
These days when you buy a movie on Bluray it often comes in multiple forms. You get a Bluray copy, an Ultraviolet copy, a digital copy, a DVD copy..... how would a system such as Ultaviolet work with Cinavia protected content if all devices could detect Cinavia? I guess you'd need a different watermark for different formats and devices would need to recognise a particular format and allow it to be played, but not others, maybe working in tandem with the copy protection methods already in use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UltraViolet_%28system%29#Selected_DRM_technologies). I've not really thought about it myself.... it's just something which popped into my head while I was typing.

whurlston

22nd September 2014, 16:53

Tell me a good reason. [...] So why we should publish the 2 generation?
I can give you two.

In order to comply with the GPL license: CinExHDLW.dll, which is required for your program to work, is really nothing more that a compiled ffmpeg (as anyone with a hex editor can see).

As you said yourself:
I do not want to steal information, I prefer to discuss and share information.

asarian

23rd September 2014, 15:44

In order to comply with the GPL license: CinExHDLW.dll, which is required for your program to work, is really nothing more that a compiled ffmpeg (as anyone with a hex editor can see).

LOL, busted! :D

asarian

23rd September 2014, 16:06

You get a Bluray copy, an Ultraviolet copy, a digital copy, a DVD copy..... how would a system such as Ultaviolet work with Cinavia protected content if all devices could detect Cinavia? I guess you'd need a different watermark for different formats and devices would need to recognise a particular format and allow it to be played,

Pardon my ignorance, but digital copies of Blu-Rays?! Surely those aren't sold legally, right? (Or did I miss something major?)

Naturally, people in general consider 'media shifting' fair play, and so do I: I reserve the right to put my Blu-Rays on a hard disk at my media center; but I don't think the official makers of Cinavia had a 'hard disk' in mind as valid Blu-Ray medium. So, Cinavia checks would always fail on those.

As for players, while I'm at it, ask yourselves, what consitutes a player, really? In our PC, ppl generally see it as that black box we built in. But a PS3, for instance, is, as a whole, also considered a Blu-Ray player. And that's more like a PC, with a player device, a motherboard, and OS, etc.

So, I think it's more people's great resistance against Cinavia that has kept motherboard manufacturers from jumping on the Cinavia bandwagon, rather than a techical reason. And with 4K around the corner, they may simply not want to bother any more. Although Cinavia, even for 4K, would still be a heck of a strong mechanism to use.

nevcairiel

23rd September 2014, 16:40

Pardon my ignorance, but digital copies of Blu-Rays?! Surely those aren't sold legally, right? (Or did I miss something major?)

Its a digital copy of the movie, not of the Blu-ray, which means its lower quality and it has DRM on it most of the time.

asarian

23rd September 2014, 16:46

Its a digital copy of the movie, not of the Blu-ray, which means its lower quality and it has DRM on it most of the time.

Ah, I see. :) Guess I misread that one.

SamuriHL

24th September 2014, 12:57

I don't doubt that the industry can add additional drm layers to the different devices out there. Motherboards, receivers, tv's, etc. What I doubt from a technical stand point is the ability to enforce the current Cinavia drm on anything except the player. This is based on how the protection actually works rather than some fear mongering OMGZ ponies they're out to get me mentality. Once the stream leaves the player, the aacs encryption has been removed. Since Cinavia works by validating the aacs encryption, this can only happen at the player. Other drm schemes could be created but for the existing bluray format? Unlikely. For 4k? Almost assuredly.

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk

Ichinisan

26th February 2015, 19:58

Can we ADD the theatrical watermark to our own content? If so, I'd want to put a Cinavia watermark into EVERYTHING that goes online.

Encourage vloggers to do it. Videos on social media. Music streaming services.

The point? Create false Cinavia detections so often that consumer complaints will force the hardware manufacturers to abandon it.

Is that practical?

It would be awesome once the Cinavia watermark starts getting accidentally broadcast on TV news clips and such. Mass complaints from consumers. Manufacturers would be forced to abandon Cinavia (hopefully).

jmac698

1st March 2015, 07:26

There's a hack for various bluray hardware players to bypass cinavia btw, also you could compile xmbc for them or whatever you want (except the cpu is kinda slow). They run armv6 cpus.

http://www.malcolmstagg.com/bdp-s390.html

You can also easily extract the cinavia binary from the firmware and disassemble it, to see how it really works. Strange no one has done that yet.

P.J

18th July 2015, 19:45

Anyway to get rid of Cinavia in PowerDVD 15?

Emulgator

20th July 2015, 18:14

AnyDVD 7.6.0.0 2015 04 30
.....
- New: PowerDVD 15.0.1510.58 is now supported by AnyDVD's unique Cinavia fix
.....

P.J

20th July 2015, 20:02

Ah, i was using 7.5.7.0
I'll try it, thanks!

diogen

30th July 2015, 17:34

Just want to mention that Windows 10 makes no attempts to comply with Cinavia "terrorism".

Not only that, it can also handle MKVs out of the box without any splitters...

It looks like 4K video is the next bastion Hollywood will try to defend.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/204319-windows-10s-playready-3-0-mandates-hardware-drm-for-4k-playback

Ch3vr0n

30th July 2015, 17:54

playready has NOTHING to do with cinavia. Playready is a DRM to protect video casted to mobile devices. TV companies often have apps that allows you to watch TV on a mobile device. Playready is used to detect if the device is rooted and if it is decline streaming to the device to protect the copyright.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 7 met Tapatalk

diogen

30th July 2015, 18:52

playready has NOTHING to do with cinavia. Correct. Did I say it has?

I'll try in more details:

The environment (i.e. OS, in this case - Windows) has to be accommodating
for anything like Cinavia to be enforced (on the player level).

Despite rumors for at least a decade, Windows never became so accommodating.
HTPCs started as mostly Windows (still are?) and never had problem playing ripped content
Windows 10 is no exception...

That makes anything up to Blu-ray a lost cause to defend (for Hollywood).

4K video might be another game altogether...

Ch3vr0n

30th July 2015, 19:49

The environment (i.e. OS, in this case - Windows) has to be accommodating
for anything like Cinavia to be enforced (on the player level).

No it doesn't,

the PLAYER has to be accomdating. It doesn't matter WHAT OS you use, the only thing that matters is if the player is LICENSED for blu-ray playback after feb 1st 2012. If it is = mandatory detection, if it isn't = no detection required.

diogen

30th July 2015, 19:55

Who cares about license?

VLC (for better or worse) is playing anything on Windows since introduction.
Is it licensed? No. Never was never will. Can it play rips? Yes.

The OS - aka Windows - could prevent it from playing but never did...

Can you be more articulate about what point you are trying to make?

Ch3vr0n

31st July 2015, 02:59

You don't get it, the licensed player part comes into play if they want to add full menu support. Does vlc play rips, sure. Can it maintain the original menu? Can it may java menus? No. THAT is what the licensed part is about.

The OS CAN'T and never will, is Windows a blu-ray player? It's an environment in which you INSTALL a player into. It's THAT player that has to or doesn't have to detect cinavia. It's nothing window should even care about.

That's not even counting the added cost it would bring, it's $$$ to even be allowed to use it and cost an additional $$$ per copy it's used into.

You're the one that brought playready into a topic that's got nothing to do with cinavia or even decryption in general, not me.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn Nexus 7 met Tapatalk

Keiyakusha

31st July 2015, 03:36

Ch3vr0n
You are right, windows is not necessarily relevant here. But the whole thing has something to do with Cinavia. These news aren't only about windows. Manufacturers are going to add DRM support to PCs on a hardware level. One day we may see Cinavia implementation integrated in our PCs and what software player we use to playback stuff might become irrelevant since it could be checked for watermark after it is already processed by player and before it'll be sent to speakers. If for example it will detect the watermark but will not detect a matching bluray disc in the drive it may refuse to give anything but silence. This is just a speculation though.

Ch3vr0n

31st July 2015, 04:14

cinavia implementation in our PC's? I seriously doubt that. No hardware manufacturer in their right mind is willingly going to add the needed hardware in the motherboad/optical drives. 1) they don't have to because neither a motherboard or optical drive can detect it on its own and 2) The cost comes into play to even be allowed to use it and again per item it's used on 3) ppl will just go to manufacturers that don't have it. I doubt companies like Asus would want their profits get eaten by implementing it and lose even more due to lack of sales.

without Windows the hardware items are just big pieces of paperweight, the only way windows would be required to add cinavia support is if they add a player that's fully compliant with the standard and has full menu support. Considering the fact that even WMP can barely play a simple DVD and that they release N versions (due to the anti-trust case by the EU) i doubt they'd ever do it (right). They can't get WMP to play a simple DVD right, let alone adding a complicated component such as a fully compliant BD player and 1) risk a new anti-trust case by the EU, and have the added cost of paying verance to use it and again per copy of windows sold.

That'll happen when hell freezes over.

SamuriHL

31st July 2015, 04:47

It's a misconception to think only a licensed player could handle menus... Even java ones. Just because it hasn't yet been done does not preclude the possibility. It'd take emulating the jvm implementation of the bluray spec. We know that's possible already as we know of a company that's already doing it. ;) Never count out the tenacity of the open source community. The licensing is really about the protections in place and getting access to the implementation of those components. Audio and video codes, jvm, aacs, bd+, Cinavia... That's what the license is really for. You get a player key when you implement all of that and keep it secure. The underlying tech like menus could be reverse engineered in a library for non licensed players to use. Basic menus have already been done. Give them time.

Also, don't limit yourself with the whole Cinavia thing. Saying they can't /won't implement it in the os. Irrelevant. They can and probably will invent new protection mechanisms going forward to protect 4k. I can guarantee they won't be limited to a watermark in the audio stream.

Keiyakusha

31st July 2015, 04:52

Ch3vr0n your point is probably right, but my point wasn't strictly about cinavia. Major manufacturers are already adding hardware routines to facilitate DRM in win10. Granted there is no word about cinavia, but I don't see why they will not be willing to add it too, or at least something equivalently nasty. Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and Qualcomm, good luck finding manufacturers that won't have it. This is mainly concerning video playback, not audio. But hdmi audio, for example, also need to go through GPU

Ghitulescu

31st July 2015, 07:58

While the player is indeed forced to comply with cinavia, so far only if it provides full men support, nothing prevent the hardware manufacturers to implement a detection routine in their chipset, routine that may or not be available to programming.

In fact all major chipset mfgs like SigmaDesign and MediaTek "advertised" once their products will incorporate cinavia, like they currently incorporate MacroVision.

Now, a lot of people are using the computer to watch movies. This cannot be argued against, as everytime I suggest a HW player dozens of replies come back with this "standard clause".

Considering that alternative players exist, like the aforementioned VLC, isn't this a problem to be solved by media distributors?
I mean it will be utterly stupid to allow the "unauthorised" playback when they have the means to prevent this. It can be incorporated into a chip or software-wise. Sofar and AFAIK M$ did not comply with the requirements of DVD and BD, because their player does not support ex fabrica the playback of such media. So the incorporation of the cinavia in the chipset solves all the issues, even if the OS issuer chooses not to comply.
Since the computers today are almost 1million times better than 20 years ago, yet they need more or less the same time to do the same job :), the tendency will forcely be to use HW acceleration ... circle closed.

One last detail - it must not happen today, but it will eventually. One has only to track the evolution (DRM-wise) of satellite broadcasting and draw the conclusions.

diogen

31st July 2015, 14:28

You don't get it...Geeez...
Reading comprehension problems?

Who talks about playing (or not) legitimate discs?
I talk about rips. Backups, you know? A DRM-less copy of the disc?
And that is what this site is all about...

Multiple attempts were made to prevent this from happening (playing rips).
The first wave was trying to prevent ripping itself: CSS, AACS, BD+, etc....
All were defeated...

And those that were not defeated, died in obscurity: SACD, DVDA...

Now the attempt is made to prevent playback itself: Cinavia.

Cinavia can succeed only when every member of the playback chain is playing by the rules (imposed by copyright holders).

This can be done - if so desired - on standalone BD players, game consoles, etc. Because the OS controls what is and is not allowed to be played.

Windows - at least in theory - could have achieved the same. But never did. Including Win10.
There were talks about protected audio/media path for years. But Microsoft never locked up the OS...

The ultimate goal - and we might get there in 10 years or so - is to completely eliminate hard copies and do only streaming.
Example: Ultraviolet.

This way the protection can be updated daily (if needed) and copyright holders have complete control of the whole playback chain...

Chetwood

1st August 2015, 07:08

Unless of course people manage to hack into the chain or simply record and recode from the screen. With such a high quality source, the copies should look decent enough.

diogen

1st August 2015, 15:17

...or simply record and recode from the screen.This would be doable...
I think Ben Waggoner - a mod on this forum - mentioned once that he'd be interested in trying this (while talking about restoration of old movies).
Setting up a high quality playback system and record it at 1080/60p...

The only downside, that setup would cost an arm and a leg and would not be a topic of discussion on doom9...:)

spock2000

2nd August 2015, 03:11

Hello everybody

I have a ps3 and a ps4 u.s.a. versions. I noticed a couple months ago I can stream to both consoles using the application Plex media server with the plex pass. Plex pass subscription costs 5.00 a month. No cinavia on both consoles :) . Also noticed the newest firmware for the ps4 has enabled playing video files via usb flash drive. I'm so happy!!! No cinavia present yet on that also for now :) The movie I tried was Ghost rider vengenance on Bluray disc. Cinavia showed up. Then Ghost rider vengenance via usb flashdrive compressed using handbrake. No cinavia on the ps4.:):):) Of course I always have my sony bdp-s360 or xbox 360 just in case Sony decides to include it in later firmware updates

Chetwood

2nd August 2015, 07:14

The only downside, that setup would cost an arm and a leg and would not be a topic of discussion on doom9...:)
Sure, but aren't the scene groups already doing this to get their Netflix releases out?

asarian

25th April 2016, 20:01

Andy o

1st May 2016, 23:36

Hmm, I was looking at a new system (either S1151 or S2011-v3), and, to my shock, I saw this on both systems (Realtek® ALC1150):

BD Audio Layer Content Protection

What is this?! So. no more streaming?!?

That's likely so blu-ray players such as TMT and PowerDVD can tap into it so they do not downsample audio, it's an old known issue/non-issue (depending on if you use those programs or not, or if you care about the downsampling).

Andy o

2nd May 2016, 00:17

And those that were not defeated, died in obscurity: SACD, DVDA...
I'm not sure not being rippable was the cause of the demise of these (though maybe part of it). DVD-A could be fully ripped at the end, for whatever that's worth. I think it may have been the prices and the inconvenience of it all. CD's have been in decline for a long time too, btw.

Cinavia can succeed only when every member of the playback chain is playing by the rules (imposed by copyright holders).

This can be done - if so desired - on standalone BD players, game consoles, etc. Because the OS controls what is and is not allowed to be played.

Windows - at least in theory - could have achieved the same. But never did. Including Win10.
There were talks about protected audio/media path for years. But Microsoft never locked up the OS...

It's way harder to achieve in Windows, and arguably it probably never will be, cause they might just have to disallow third party players. As far as I understand, for those other devices you mentioned, there are no third party players available. It is still the player's job to detect Cinavia, not the OS's.