"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection [Archive] - Page 3

Xperience

27th July 2010, 13:42

Don't know if i can post it here. If not sorry about it.

Lately i read a lot of the new watermark protection in Blu-ray players.
I've red that players from 2009 till now has it mostly through a firmware update.

I can buy from someone a LG BD370 (2009) cheap.
So i thought i would buy it to play some of my AVCHD DL movies and BD-R (future).
Can anyone confirm if LG also uses Cinavia in their firmwares ?

Thanks!

b66pak

27th July 2010, 18:33

any device with bluray logo have to implement it...
_

rotty

27th July 2010, 18:59

We need an up to date list of disks that contain the abomination and boycott them.

Sending a signal for this and future.

They will soon get the message that they are attacking the good guys.

setarip_old

27th July 2010, 21:01

@rotty

As I see it, the problem with identifying such BluRay discs is that, for the time being, there are a limited number of hardware devices (mostly updated PS3s) presently owned that will react to "Cinavia" and thereby identify such a disc with certainty.

I also would anticipate a problem with "false positives" being posted - by those who have obtained something other than a legitimate, commercial Blu-Ray disc.

I would hope that while "the pros" are developing a "cure", they would initially discover and provide a means of identifying such discs, regardless of playback system...

SamuriHL

27th July 2010, 21:09

I've asked for the same thing...some way of identifying the discs that have it with a scanner of some sort. That leaves nothing to chance. We'll see if that happens.

setarip_old

28th July 2010, 22:02

From what I've read today, the newly released "Repo Men" contains "Cinavia" watermarking.

Possibly on the bright side, if the information from the following link/thread is true, it's as simple as unchecking the "Chapters" box in (certain versions of) MKVMergeGUI to eliminate the "Cinavia" in MKV versions you may have created from your actual BluRay discs.

http://ps3mediaserver.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7220

It would be good if some member(s) could confirm the following:

1) The/A legitimate version of the BluRay disc of "Repo Men" DOES contain "Cinavia" protection, and

2) The information at the thread I've provided a link to actually is successful at cleanly eliminating the "Cinavia" protection from it.

SamuriHL

28th July 2010, 22:06

That chapter nonsense has already been disproven. It's more likely they had header compression removal turned on which caused their issues.

setarip_old

28th July 2010, 22:37

Regarding the header compression, that is something I pointed out, in another Doom9 Forum thread, the other day - and it doesn't necessarily obviate other possibilities that may also exist.

However, in this instance, the poster stated: I just went to watch Repo Men and got struck down with the Cinavia WARNING Certainly, the header compression situation wouldn't generate a "Cinavia" onscreen warning.

So, as long as it's no skin off anyone's nose, I'd repeat:

It would be good if some member(s) could confirm (or refute) whether each of the following is correct:

1) The/A legitimate version of the BluRay disc of "Repo Men" DOES contain "Cinavia" protection, and

2) The information at the thread I've provided a link to actually is successful at cleanly eliminating the "Cinavia" protection from it.

http://ps3mediaserver.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7220

SamuriHL

28th July 2010, 22:47

Take it for what it's worth:

http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=272750&postcount=680

setarip_old

28th July 2010, 23:01

As I said, it doesn't necessarily obviate other possibilities that may also exist.

As we've seen in the past, there can be numerous different releases of the same title (one disc, two disc, different regions, sellthroughs, rental, etc.) at the same time - with differing or no protection schemes...

SamuriHL

28th July 2010, 23:02

I didn't suggest it did. I simply was giving you one user's account of playing a backup of his purchased disc. :)

setarip_old

29th July 2010, 01:11

Hopefully, enough responses will be posted (regarding actual BluRays as the original sources) so that we can all get a clear(er) picture of what has or hasn't been done by Universal with this release with regard to "Cinavia" - and whether or not someone has stumbled upon a fix for the present iteration of it...

SamuriHL

29th July 2010, 01:16

Given my testing with the US retail release of The Losers, I can tell you right now that the "just remove the chapters" nonsense is NOT going to have any affect on this protection whatsoever. It's embedded in the audio track. This is a fact. I've gone so far as to re-encode it into a very low quality 2 channel AAC and it still triggered Cinavia on my PS3. There were no chapters involved in that re-encode. What's badly needed is a way to definitively tell if a disc contains Cinavia without having to resort to making a backup and running it through a Cinavia enabled device. But so far, there hasn't been any evidence I've seen that any of the titles released this week in the US contain Cinavia. Looks like maybe The Losers was a test. Unfortunately, so far, it seems like a successful one. :)

SamuriHL

29th July 2010, 02:37

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885

I'm trying to find out how they tested The Runaways, but, it's reported (region A) to have Cinavia on it.

Nic

29th July 2010, 06:58

Yup, it's very resilient. Just to test that, it seems adding reverb or flanger or echo has no effect and it still will be detected.

Shifting the pitch got around the detection, but all these are very destructive processes.

I think once someone can detect the protection accurately they will probably be able to remove/break it too.

SamuriHL

29th July 2010, 13:58

setarip_old

29th July 2010, 18:20

@nic

Hi! Shifting the pitch got around the detection

(Pun intended) SOUNDS like this could be a big step in the right direction ;>}

b66pak

29th July 2010, 18:35

this is a VERY wrong approach...why butchering an already butchered audio (watermarked)?..you will end up with some CAM audio quality...where is the HD audio everyone likes in this?..the right think to do is to leave audio as it is and buy a linux based NMT which will play this backups...or custom firmwares for disabling the detection...
_

SamuriHL

29th July 2010, 18:39

I've already said I plan on doing absolutely nothing about Cinavia, so... :) I just find it interesting that pitch changes break detection. I don't see that in and of itself as a means to defeat it. Simply an interesting insight into how the detection works. Considering there's only 1 confirmed disc with this stuff on it anyway, it's not really a big issue at the moment. However, given that the "test" seems to be successful so far you can probably bet on seeing more discs soon. As a result it makes sense to have some method of playing backups that doesn't involve Cinavia detection. My preferred method is an HTPC with open source software. Older BD players are another possible solution, at least for now. Some day someone will find a way to non-destructively remove it. Until then, it remains an interesting case study in content protection. At least to me. :)

Guest

29th July 2010, 19:37

We shouldn't break it too early. Wait until the player base is too large for them to change it based on vulnerabilities we expose in these early disks.

b66pak

29th July 2010, 19:49

again:

considering that watermaked audio IS NOT an encryption-decryption problem and is effective against rebuilding could a moderator move this thread to rebuilding forum?
_

Guest

29th July 2010, 19:54

Not strictly decryption but it seems more appropriate here. Does it really matter?

b66pak

29th July 2010, 20:00

i think it matter...people going PRO with some rebuilding tools need to be aware that will be some heavy problems...
_

setarip_old

29th July 2010, 20:14

I concur with "Neuron2" - especially since there is already a similar thread that includes posts expressing concern about potential rebuilding problems posed by "Cinavia", in the BD Rebuilder sub-forum.

(Perhaps there would be no cause for attempted hairsplitting if this sub-forum was renamed "Decryption/Copy Protection")

jdobbs

30th July 2010, 01:36

i think it matter...people going PRO with some rebuilding tools need to be aware that will be some heavy problems...
_ I gotta' ask... do you have a vested interest in Cinavia being successful? Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there -- but you sure seem to want this to sound more serious that it seems to be from my perspective. "Heavy problems" -- c'mon, that's a little premature don't you think when we're talking about one disc?

By the way, if you're talking about BD "Rebuilder" when you say "rebuilding tools"... there is no "PRO" (and probably never will be)... and it wouldn't matter anyway since BD Rebuilder doesn't do any kind of copy protection removal anyway (watermarking or otherwise -- and never will). So I certainly can't see why it would be appropriate to move it over there????

setarip_old

31st July 2010, 07:45

It's been 10 days since I started this thread and the only specifically confirmed report of "Cinavia" on the "Losers" BluRay disc that I've seen here or elsewhere has been regarding playback on a PS3. (As I mentioned, neither my SONY BDP S360 nor PowerDVD7.3 exhibited any indication of "Cinavia")

Is it possible that, despite the claims at this forum and others, the statement "all players manufactured starting with the third quarter of 2009" will be required to contain the necessary "Cinavia" reader component(s)" is Bovine Scatology?

I ask this because, despite such statements, a cursory review of the licensing page of AACS LA at:

http://www.aacsla.com/license/

yields the following opening statement:
Home » License AACS
Licensed content participants can use the AACS technology to protect content they distribute on next generation optical media. Licensed Adopters can manufacture, produce, and sell products that are AACS compliant.

Although I haven't as yet read the 187 page "Final Adopter Agreement", this statement appears to indicate that adoption of the "Cinavia" technology is OPTIONAL.

BTW Contrary to a recent posting about whether the Blu-Ray logo could appear on hardware not including the "Cinavia" component(s), it appears that the Blu-Ray logo is owned by the "Blu-Ray Disc Association", which has no direct connection to AACS LA...

asarian

31st July 2010, 07:52

Given my testing with the US retail release of The Losers, I can tell you right now that the "just remove the chapters" nonsense is NOT going to have any affect on this protection whatsoever.
And whoever even suggested so is an idiot; because this also affects streaming on the PS3 of a single m2ts file (with the main feature in it), which has no chapters at all.

asarian

31st July 2010, 08:17

I gotta' ask... do you have a vested interest in Cinavia being successful? Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there -- but you sure seem to want this to sound more serious that it seems to be from my perspective. "Heavy problems" -- c'mon, that's a little premature don't you think when we're talking about one disc?
Conversely, may I ask, do you have a vested interested in downplaying the problem? Because I most certainly foresee "heavy problems" indeed; especially when HDMI video/audio card makers are also 'forced' to build this into their video/audio chips as well.

By the way, if you're talking about BD "Rebuilder" when you say "rebuilding tools"... there is no "PRO" (and probably never will be)... and it wouldn't matter anyway since BD Rebuilder doesn't do any kind of copy protection removal anyway (watermarking or otherwise -- and never will).
In other words, soon people can't use your BD 'Rebuilder' any more to make legitimate backups of their Blu-Rays. That may not present a problem to you, but the very existence of Cinavia on a backup effectively renders that backup useless (for regular playback on a Blu-Ray player). And since you're in the business of rebuilding BD's, you'd think you'd be worried too.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting you try and remove any copy protection scheme into your software. I'm just saying that the inability to make backups (or, in my case, the inability to stream from my media server) is a matter that affects us all.

And lastly, the problem simply is big; if for nothing else, because even if it's cracked tomorrow, the concept of extracting a lossless audio track will be a thing of the past.

setarip_old

31st July 2010, 08:17

@asarian

Hi! And whoever even suggested so is an idiot

In light of the fact that we presently have no way of knowing whether (as it was with Avatar) there were several different versions of the "Losers" BluRay released, we can't say with certainty that there wasn't a version that included a simplified, non-watermark protection scheme involving chapters, subtitles, or anything else.

BTW referring to others as "idiots", especially when they're trying to be helpful, is simply rude and shortsighted...

asarian

31st July 2010, 08:33

@asarian

In light of the fact that we presently have no way of knowing whether (as it was with Avatar) there were several different versions of the "Losers" BluRay released, we can't say with certainty that there wasn't a version that included a simplified, non-watermark protection scheme involving chapters, subtitles, or anything else.

Fair enough. But then we're not talking about Cinavia any more, but about some other, totally unrelated, protection scheme. Unless radical new discoveries have been made which tie Cinavia to chapter info, we do know it's in the audio. And since Cinavia was reportedly detected while streaming as well, the only obvious conclusion must be that it cannot possible be in the chapter info.

setarip_old

31st July 2010, 08:42

@asarian

I guess you just don't get it - What if this "ruse" copy protection scheme involving chapters includes the word "CINAVIA" appearing on screen - and possibly even turns off the audio?

At this juncture, as I've alluded to previously, we haven't seen or heard about any meaningful number of proven "Cinavia"-affected players - only the PS3 (Read my Post #129)

asarian

31st July 2010, 08:53

@asarian

I guess you just don't get it - What if this "ruse" copy protection scheme involving chapters includes the word "CINAVIA" appearing on screen - and possibly even turns off the audio?
I think you're stretching a bit here, just to argue that something Cinavia could also be inside chapters. Sure, there's always the theoretical possibility; but who would care? If that were the case, obviously it wouldn't just be in the chapter info, as that would make Cinavia extremely simple to circumvent (chapters can either be removed or rebuilt with great ease). And if it's also in the audio (which it is), then having it also in the chapter info would be utterly pointless.

setarip_old

31st July 2010, 09:18

Never mind...

Peer van Heuen

31st July 2010, 10:47

Although I haven't as yet read the 187 page "Final Adopter Agreement", this statement appears to indicate that adoption of the "Cinavia" technology is OPTIONAL.

Recently I read through part of the agreement (didn't manage the whole thing, this type of document tends to make me sick).
From what I understoood, it is optional for disc manufacturers to embed it but the detection is mandatory for any "Licensed Access Product".
That agreement also has a clause that requires the licensee to adopt any future changes to the agreement or otherwise to opt out of the whole thing. I do feel sorry for all those who signed it.

So the way I see it, all players will have it soon.
Given the langage of these documents (§1: all apples are green, §1a: exceptions given in §41 apply, §41: except for apples listed in §541a, some apples that conform to §51: may also be red or of unspecified color, .... you know what I mean...), there's always a chance I may have misread something, but I don't think so.

asarian

31st July 2010, 11:48

On a Dutch PS3 forum I frequent someone just shared this (unconfirmed) report: *

"In order to watch your movie with sound you need to rewind just a bit when you receive the [Cinavia] message. And then, just before the message re-appears wind forward a bit, past where you would get the message. Then the software can't pick up on the stream any more, and you can watch your movie with audio, after all."

I'm amazed, for one, that there's not some kind of media-change detection (as in: the PS3 realizing you're still trying to play the same movie). Why, if this is true, it opens possibilities. :)

* Translated by me, of course.

jdobbs

31st July 2010, 14:43

Never mind... You're wasting your breath in discussing this nonsense with some of these folks. The sky is falling and no one will ever convince them otherwise. Either that or they have a vested interest and are spreading silliness to somehow get "Cinavia" mentioned in as many threads as possible so the non-technicals will start running scared.

Meanwhile everybody else will continue backing up their blu-rays as this whole thing shrinks steadily into obscurity (where it belongs).

Conversely, may I ask, do you have a vested interested in downplaying the problem?
Anyone who has ever actually produced freeware with voluntary donations knows that they would make more money mowing a lawn... :( In other words, I go further in the hole every week just by throwing money away to buy blu-rays for testing -- as I did when I bought "The Losers" only to find that it backed up fine to BD-25 using nothing but AnyDVD HD alone. I played it back on my Sony S360 (which I've seen reported to have Cinavia included in the latest firmware). To make it even worse, I had to watch the whole thing just to be sure -- and the movie completely sucks and may actually be the catalyst for a new "worst acting in a villian" Oscar. So if I had a vested interest, I guess it would be a hope that this garbage actually was as hideous as you all wish, so I could go back to doing something worthwhile and profitable with my time. :)

But, I'm confident that the clever people at Slysoft will make short work of this thing... assuming it ever even gets off the ground.

I'm outta' here.

SamuriHL

31st July 2010, 15:05

Recently I read through part of the agreement (didn't manage the whole thing, this type of document tends to make me sick).
From what I understoood, it is optional for disc manufacturers to embed it but the detection is mandatory for any "Licensed Access Product".
That agreement also has a clause that requires the licensee to adopt any future changes to the agreement or otherwise to opt out of the whole thing. I do feel sorry for all those who signed it.

So the way I see it, all players will have it soon.
Given the langage of these documents (§1: all apples are green, §1a: exceptions given in §41 apply, §41: except for apples listed in §541a, some apples that conform to §51: may also be red or of unspecified color, .... you know what I mean...), there's always a chance I may have misread something, but I don't think so.

Oh man, I can't believe you actually went and read that! :p That's something that would give me a migraine. Thanks for the info, though, that's very enlightening and slightly depressing. Still, we apparently have time as so far there's only one or maybe two discs that contain this at the moment. From what I read it looks as though all the studios have signed on to use it at some point. So we can expect to see more of it going forward.

laserfan

31st July 2010, 16:29

I'm outta' here.Say it ain't so--we need all the rational, calming perspectives we can get!

Regarding your "Losers" straight (decrypted) copy, you said:
I played it back on my Sony S360 (which I've seen reported to have Cinavia included in the latest firmware).Not sure what you're saying here. That the reports of Cinavia in the latest firmware (when did it come out?) are bogus?

SamuriHL

31st July 2010, 16:37

There are only 2 players that are confirmed to have cinavia detection at this point in time. The PS3 is the obvious one, but, the LG BD550 is another that contains it. The S360 with the 007 firmware does not contain it.

fengtao

31st July 2010, 17:36

There are more players which have Cinavia detector, please check it out at http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?t=7102

SamuriHL

31st July 2010, 17:43

Thanks! That's good information to keep track of. :) I know it seems silly to worry about it when "only one disc" has it, but, that seems like a very short sighted mentality to me. It seems clear that The Losers region A discs (and probably other regions) was a test to see how well it'd work in the real world and whether people would complain about audio quality. I think it's safe to say their test was successful in their eyes and that we'll likely see this on more discs in the next few months. And more players. Keeping track of players that already have it enabled seems like a wise thing just to give those in the market for a player options on what to buy depending on if they care about cinavia or not. I see nothing wrong with being prepared and thinking ahead, personally.

musicman2311

31st July 2010, 19:27

setarip_old

31st July 2010, 19:40

@fengtao

Thank you for continuing to unselfishly share your "Cinavi"-related information with the Community ;>}

It will be interesting to see how many varieties of "Cinavi" eventually appear - and what tools are developed and how complex or simple they will be...

A.Fenderson

31st July 2010, 19:43

hi all, I assume Cinavia is likely a very low frequency signal. For those who have a copy and want to test it, run the audio through a steep high pass filter with corner frequency of 20 Hz or so - i would be very eager to learn if that has an effect

If they're restricting the signal to frequencies that low, it's probably only for the home-release type Cinavia signalling. I don't think most pro camcorder mics' frequency ranges extend that low, much less integrated cam mics--so if the low-end is used, it seems far more likely it would be for the type of signal used home releases, while the movie-theater signal would have to be in a range that's likely to be picked up by the cheapest of integrated cam mics. Which implies they can imbed a signal in the audible range for theaters that most people will never notice, which to me implies they would necessarily limit all signalling types to this audible range so as to make it far more difficult to remove any signal type without degrading or destroying the audio. :)

musicman2311

1st August 2010, 09:20

If they're restricting the signal to frequencies that low, it's probably only for the home-release type Cinavia signalling. I don't think most pro camcorder mics' frequency ranges extend that low, much less integrated cam mics--so if the low-end is used, it seems far more likely it would be for the type of signal used home releases, while the movie-theater signal would have to be in a range that's likely to be picked up by the cheapest of integrated cam mics. Which implies they can imbed a signal in the audible range for theaters that most people will never notice, which to me implies they would necessarily limit all signalling types to this audible range so as to make it far more difficult to remove any signal type without degrading or destroying the audio. :)

good point!

mike20021969

1st August 2010, 09:45

I read on fengtao's link that it survives pitch-shift.
it is supposed to resist various transformations of the audio stream like re-compression, analog playback&record, re-sampling, pitch shift
Yet, I have read on SlySoft forum that pitch-shift defeats it.
The only thing I've seen so far that "works" is pitch adjustment
http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=273114&postcount=739

Bit of confusion there.