"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection [Archive] - Page 17

xenex

25th February 2011, 12:01

No, the SAT/Cable have other means that prevent in the first place the recording.

Perhaps in Germany they do. In my case here, "The Losers" is in fact playing on the HBO cable network and I can in fact record it on my DVD-recorder. Unless you are personally accusing me of being a liar, this is not in dispute.

My question is if this HBO cable broadcast does or does not contain the Cinavia watermark in the audio. I have no means to check for the watermark myself, but it either is there or is not there. There are two possibilities. It would be interesting to determine which of the two is the case.

But that is just an aside to the larger point I wanted to address. I have to quote myself:

Point #2 - IMPORTANT - ADDRESS THIS PLEASE!

Many of these DRM schemes, especially Cinavia presume that any home-made recording just must be an attempt to copy the studio's "crown jewels" and distribute their movie. But it's not always the case, is it. I may be recording my baby's first steps, my dog playing with my cat, or any number of innocent things. If a TV nearby happens to be playing a Cinavia-protected video, and the watermark is there, my own personal video is then corrupted.

Cinavia doesn't care about intent, it just ASSUMES. It assumes if the watermark is heard, you are trying to copy the "crown jewels." Well, I don't care about what is playing on a TV in the background. It's not "jewels" to me, it's background noise. But, ah, it is WATERMARKED background noise.

SamuriHL has done extensive tests and has determined that Cinavia is an audio-only based watermark. Agree? I think it is beyond dispute. Now, my question is what are the possible "unintended effects" of the watermark being played in the background of otherwise innocent home recordings. SO:

(A) IF I have a Cinavia-watermarked film playing in my home in the background and

(B) IF I record something innocent within audio range of (A)

THEN does my innocently recorded video (B) get corrupted/watermarked by the Cinavia from (A) as well?

I'd say it does. And that's the evil of it.

Ghitulescu

25th February 2011, 12:27

I'm not calling anyone a liar. Any new fact is quite welcome.
What you did however was an analog copy. Cinavia does not prevent the copying, just the playback of a copy. And needs for this either old gear with new FW or new gear.

Luckily for them, old gear won't last forever.

derbeDeus

25th February 2011, 12:48

There would be all sorts of weird implications. "Babies first steps or first dance in front of TV?" Denied!! and etc.....

Hence the 20 minutes grace period. They want to let you record "babies first steps", but not "baby watched The Losers whole movie without having to P once" ;)

Stereodude

25th February 2011, 13:06

Hence the 20 minutes grace period. They want to let you record "babies first steps", but not "baby watched The Losers whole movie without having to P once" ;)Nonsense, they want to let you get interested in the movie then kill the audio on you so that more inclined to pay us so you can watch the rest of it instead of simply deciding to skip it.

Ghitulescu

25th February 2011, 20:13

People that watch Camrips on their PCs are not yet affected. Like usual with the copy protections, the most affected are the honest customers. The bright side of the story is that the originals are cheaper, in comparison with DVDs and VHSs at the same stage of evolution. If they'll drop out the idea of unskippable trailers and stuff, I will not care too much about backing up a BD. A brand BDR costs anyway at least 4€ and a BD-R DL at least 9€, compared to 10-15€ a BD-ROM. I mean brand names, not X-Layer and Co., that last 1 month after burning.

derbeDeus

25th February 2011, 20:35

Nonsense, they want to let you get interested in the movie then kill the audio on you so that more inclined to pay us so you can watch the rest of it instead of simply deciding to skip it.

Nonsense nonsense :P
Why don't they mute the audio for Message 1 then, huh?
They mute the audio to tell you, in a way, that audio is the problem with your recording (see also the Message 3).

ChiDragon

26th February 2011, 05:49

Perhaps they feel that the type of person downloading camcorder'd theatrical films and viewing them on his STB isn't the type of person to go out and spend $10 on a ticket after a mute message comes up.

derbeDeus

26th February 2011, 22:16

The point was: the 20 mins is a "grace period". They also mention that on Cinavia/Verance site (there you'll see 10mins).
Btw: can anyone with Cinavia on LG player tell us what was the grace period there?

setarip_old

28th February 2011, 20:13

I saw the following, supposedly successful, methodology suggested at another forum. Perhaps someone with Verance/"Cinavia" affected hardware can try it:

Used Adobe Audition 1.5 to apply the following to the (ed. down)converted audio:
scientific filter - remove subsonic rumble (preset)
auto click/pop noise reduction
central channel extractor filter - karaoke (drop vocals 20dB) PRESET

HWK

1st March 2011, 00:58

I saw the following, supposedly successful, methodology suggested at another forum. Perhaps someone with Verance/"Cinavia" affected hardware can try it:

Tried it doesn't work on ps3. Still mute the audio :mad: Furthermore it remove quite bit of audio samples which can be heard if not removed. Mainly voice of actors and sometime music as well.

Stereodude

1st March 2011, 02:08

If you have two versions of the same soundtrack one with and one without can't you just subtract one from the other and see how / where they differ? If this thing is as robust as claimed the watermark can't be all that subtle.

setarip_old

1st March 2011, 03:37

@HWK

Hi!

Thank you for trying and reporting your findings ;>}

RedDwarf1

1st March 2011, 17:31

Tried it doesn't work on ps3. Still mute the audio :mad: Furthermore it remove quite bit of audio samples which can be heard if not removed. Mainly voice of actors and sometime music as well.

I saw mentioned on another forum that DVDFab 8.0.7.0 (Beta) is meant to be able to make Blu Ray Disk copies with Cinavia playable on PS3's and has done for about a month. There has since been an updated version 8.0.7.3.

http://www.dvdfab.com/cinavia.htm

http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?t=7102

setarip_old

1st March 2011, 18:10

@RedDwarf

Hi!

Thank you for the links but, if you read through this thread, you'll see that the DVDFab methodology is already well-known and has been discussed at length here ;>}

RedDwarf1

2nd March 2011, 01:18

I didn't have time to read the whole thread as was getting quite large and I always forget that this forum has a thread search capability.

So it's the streaming that it doesn't fix but direct BluRay disk playback it does as it only makes a change to the BluRay disk to allow playback but does not actually remove Cinavia.

Best of luck finding a solution. Hopefully a fix will be found like it was for Blu Ray.

Ghitulescu

2nd March 2011, 08:44

Nothing will "fix" cinavia, only its completely removal.
Temporary solutions are:
- resist upgrading
- rip the BDs (and some DVDs now) and play them on players that do not have yet cinavia on-board (see also the first point - resist upgrading)
- create fake originals (not all players can be fooled though).

cwl7454

3rd March 2011, 10:57

These posts are questioning AnyDVD vs DVDFab and what they can and can't do in regards to Blurays; can I throw a third into the mix as to their claims as this is the first time I had ever heard of them:

"Modiac blu-ray ripper , is regarded as the best conversion tool in the world, which could decrypt any one of the blu-ray discs you want and convert them into each kinds of media formats you like,"
"Rips every blu-ray discs you like and remove each kind of protections immediately."

Just curious.

mike20021969

3rd March 2011, 11:10

"Rips every blu-ray discs you like and remove each kind of protections immediately."
Except Cinavia.

Ghitulescu

3rd March 2011, 13:18

"Modiac blu-ray ripper , is regarded as the best conversion tool in the world, which could decrypt any one of the blu-ray discs you want and convert them into each kinds of media formats you like,"
"Rips every blu-ray discs you like and remove each kind of protections immediately."

Adult people should be immune to these scams :) :p

Big Vern

3rd March 2011, 16:45

So, if I muxed an AC3 soundtrack from a non Cinavia DVD to the blu-ray version of same film, would it work in Cinavia based players?

Ghitulescu

3rd March 2011, 16:47

Yes, provided no other cinavia tracks exist.

Big Vern

3rd March 2011, 17:30

Yes, provided no other cinavia tracks exist.

No, it will be just the video [movie only] from a blu-ray. muxed with a DVD AC3 soundtrack. Output will be an AVCHD [DVD9].

Thanks.

fengtao

4th March 2011, 10:25

You can mux DVD AC3 with Blu-ray video stream, and still get a Blu-ray structure, but more and more DVD discs contain Cinavia too, so it's not effective.

Big Vern

4th March 2011, 11:41

What is the best tool for doing NTSC to PAL conversion please?

I have Takers, Blu-Ray, imported from Amazon USA. I also have Takers on DVD, UK, region 2. I wanna mux the UK soundtrack with the USA blu-ray video, but first I need to get the blu-ray video to PAL with no 1-second stutter. The reason? Takers on DVD has Cinavia, but only reported in region A, USA. No one knows about the Region 2, UK version.

derbeDeus

4th March 2011, 13:12

Big Vern

4th March 2011, 13:23

It says on the back of the DVD case. Afaik, any Takers DVD, by Sony, has it.
So you're out of luck.

I did read that it was confirmed that Takers region 1, US had Cinavia, not Region 2, UK. Thats why I wanted to mess around today and see if it worked.

derbeDeus

4th March 2011, 15:27

I did read that it was confirmed that Takers region 1, US had Cinavia, not Region 2, UK. Thats why I wanted to mess around today and see if it worked.

Well, since you have Takers DVD uk, you could confirm for us if it has Cinavia logo on the box or not.

setarip_old

4th March 2011, 18:31

Considering what's being dealt with here and the obvious adversarial relationship (Users versus Studios etal), rather than accept a logo on a box as proof positive that watermarking is actually present, can someone please actually swap out the audiostreams from the "Takers" blu-ray (after confirming that those streams DO trigger Verance/"Cinavia") and swap in the audiostreams from the DVD (purportedly also containing the watermarking) - and see if this hybrid version of the Blu-ray still triggers Verance/"Cinavia"?

The excellent revealing post #603, by "xenex", brings to light OTHER aspects related to this protection but, for lack of affected hardware, does not confirm or refute the existence of the watermarking on the DVD version of "The Takers")

derbeDeus

4th March 2011, 19:15

Considering what's being dealt with here and the obvious adversarial relationship (Users versus Studios etal), rather than accept a logo on a box as proof positive that watermarking is actually present, can someone please actually swap out the audiostreams from the "Takers" blu-ray (after confirming that those streams DO trigger Verance/"Cinavia") and swap in the audiostreams from the DVD (purportedly also containing the watermarking) - and see if this hybrid version of the Blu-ray still triggers Verance/"Cinavia"?

The easiest way to test it is to make a dvd copy and test the copy without messing with track swapping. If it triggers on dvd backup, it will trigger if you put the dvd audio into bd backup.

Ghitulescu

4th March 2011, 20:33

Considering what's being dealt with here and the obvious adversarial relationship (Users versus Studios etal), rather than accept a logo on a box as proof positive that watermarking is actually present...

Well the presence of a logo means that the associated item is present. Cinavia is a mandatory part of the AACS, and the licensing protocol requires the presence of logos gfor each implemented function.

Remember the scandal Phlips created some years ago, when unCDs were launched. These are not CD-Audio, they should consequently bear no CD-DA logo. That is the power of a logo (and that of the certification body behind :)).

setarip_old

4th March 2011, 20:37

@derbeDeus

Hi!

Unless I'm mistaken (I searched this entire thread before posting this), playing a backup of the DVD version of "The Takers" does not trigger the Verance/"Cinavia" notification (Purportedly/Presumably contains the watermarking to obviate the possibility of using the DVD track on the Blu-ray version)

setarip_old

4th March 2011, 21:02

@Ghitulescu Well the presence of a logo means that the associated item is present.

1) You are apparently far more trusting of "them" than I am.

2) I've seen and read nothing that specifically precludes the appearance of the Verance/"Cinavia" logo on a DVD jacket or DVD, whether the disc contains all, some, or none of the components of that protection.

3) the licensing protocol requires the presence of logos gfor each implemented function. Perhaps just a lack of information on my part but, I'm not aware of the Verance/"Cinavia" logo appearing on any standalone players and/or PS3s manufactured after the third quarter of 2010.

Rather than speculating about what is or isn't legally required, or what may or may not exist, I'd reiterate my request that someone with Verance/"Cinavia" affected hardware actually test the video-only stream of the Blu-ray of "The Takers" combined with the audio-only stream(s) of the DVD version of "The Takers" - the results of which will be simple, concise and certain...

xenex

5th March 2011, 06:22

@setarip_old

As you noted, I do not personally own any Cinavia-affected gear, but through some internet searching I have found a few threads/posts that do seem to confirm that both the "Takers" and "Burlesque" DVDs do contain the watermark, and do trigger the message on the PS3. See these links:

http://forum.lgsoftwareinnovations.com/showthread.php?t=32602
http://club.myce.com/f116/burlesque-cinavia-protection-320182/
http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?t=11479
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?p=298906

olyteddy

5th March 2011, 08:17

Am I wrong in thinking that Cinavia encodes a message about media type? That is, if you try to play the soundtrack from a theatrical movie on a 'protected' (infected?) device it simply checks that the media type is not a movie projector and squelches it. Likewise if you play a DVD soundtrack that isn't on a pressed DVD it kills it too. If that's the case, then it can easily be applied to any media including Audio CDs (is it pressed, or is it Memorex?).
Here's a reference to this from Verance: http://www.verance.com/technology/index.php.

As to the actual encoding, this wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines brings up an interesting concept as to how the encoding might be done, using low data rates and the audio signal as a carrier.

Ghitulescu

5th March 2011, 08:31

Verance checks for the watermark. If it's present then the player triggers the message/s according to the disk: original or not. All non-disk media (especially HDDs and other storage types) are by default copies. A BD-ROM with video should have the BD-Mark (mandatory). A DVD-ROM has CSS. Recordable media do not have these copyright marks. There's no need to do additional checks (ATIP and similar old techniques).
Watermarking CD-DAs is counterproductive, first because it degrades the sound quality (killer application), secondly because there are billions of non-cinavia-enabled portable mediaplayers and standalones worldwide, so the impact will be next to none.
For your question with the projector, how many consumers do own or have access to theatrical projection gear? So inherently the format that contains the pirated movie will be a copy.

I said it several times now, read the patents! Reading them prevents the spread of misconceptions and "educated guesses"

xenex

5th March 2011, 09:17

What is really needed at this point is another thread, separate from this one, entitled "Cinavia - What We Know" or such. I myself have read the patents (most of them, not all) and I have read ALL of the AACS watermark specifications that are available. I actually 'enjoy' reading the specs and educating myself on this new tech. So I know a bit about this stuff, and I really don't speculate.

However, I do not own any Cinavia-enabled devices and do not intend to purchase such. And I'll never purchase anything made by Sony (EVER). So my ability to actually test things is limited.

I'd like to start that new thread, and would be willing to, but it's quite a bit of work to write it all up, provide references, and etc. If I find time, I may try to do so. It is frustrating to no end how much misinformation is out there.

setarip_old

5th March 2011, 10:20

@xenex

Thank you for helping maintain focus for this thread. Also thanks for finding and providing those links - they appear to provide proof positive that Verance/"Cinavia" protection can indeed "do its thing" to DVDs as well (at least, regarding the present version of the PS3).

What is really needed at this point is another thread, separate from this one, entitled "Cinavia - What We Know" or such.Personally, I think you have a wonderful idea ;>}

A couple of suggestions, if I may, before you get it rolling:

1) With the cooperation of "Doom9", get yourself appointed as a "special" moderator, specifically for the new thread you've proposed. This would allow you to make certain that proper focus is maintained for the thread - including the deletion of inapplicable posts.

2) Arrange for any and all detailed true development work and communication regarding same to be done somewhere other than at the Doom9 Forum (With, perhaps, periodic generalized updates/progress reports posted to this thread)

cwl7454

5th March 2011, 10:27

@xenex

However, I do not own any Cinavia-enabled devices and do not intend to purchase such. And I'll never purchase anything made by Sony (EVER).

I too am like you, ever since sony's attempted deception I have never purchased another sony product, nor do I intend to. Am in no hurry to jump into the BR foray untill things are sorted out. Will simply rent from redbox and return if I ever desire to see something in bluray. Right now am content with dvd, alot less hassle.
My personal feeling is that they want me to buy, for a expensive price, a BRay that I am going to watch once or twice, no thanks.

mayhem2408

8th March 2011, 02:34

Does anyone have the Audio files ripped from the DVD and the Bluray from "The Takers". I'd like to get my hands on them and pump them through some equipment to see if I can spot the differences.
Once we know what to look for we can work on removing it.

setarip_old

8th March 2011, 04:31

@mayhem2408

Hi!

We don't share copyrighted materials at the Doom9 Forums...

Please note that in light of the fact that "The Takers" is the first (known) release to have Verance/"Cinavia" protection on BOTH the Blu-ray and DVD releases, it would seem highly unlikely that any meaningful information could be gained by comparing their audiostreams...

mayhem2408

8th March 2011, 07:04

Can someone give me the name of a Movie where the Bluray release has Cinavia and the DVD does not. I'll go and by them and see what I come up with.

setarip_old

8th March 2011, 08:18

@mayhem2048

Click on the following link:

http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?p=46933

mayhem2408

9th March 2011, 19:51

@mayhem2048

Click on the following link:

http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?p=46933

Thanks. I already have Salt on Bluray, so I will get it on DVD as well and do some comparisons on the audio tracks and see if I can find anything. Has anyone else tried this before?

jpsdr

10th March 2011, 09:23

Is there any way before trying to do anything to confirm for sure that Salt DVD don't have also Cinavia ?

xenex

10th March 2011, 10:15

Besides there being absolutely ZERO reports of the presence of Cinavia on the "Salt" DVD anywhere on the entirety of the internet, as well as the lack of the "Cinavia Protected" logo on the back of the DVD cover, one might also note that the DVD itself does not contain an AACS folder, which is a prerequisite of Cinavia protected DVDs. Please see here:

http://www.aacsla.com/specifications/AACS_Spec_Signed_CSS_Final_0.951.pdf

ADDENDUM:

To be clear, in the following, I speak only of Cinavia-affected DVD media. Not Blu-Ray.

Ok, (1) IF a DVD's audio is suspected to contain the Cinavia watermark, that DVD MUST contain an AACS folder. The contents of that folder, a hash table and a content certificate are the ONLY WAY for a Cinavia-detection-enabled player to verify the "TRUSTED_SOURCE" status. Ergo, if a DVD suspected of containing a Cinavia watermark does not contain an AACS folder, it does not contain the Cinavia watermark.

Now, (2) CAN a DVD contain an AACS folder without having the Cinavia watermark? Well, yes, of course it can. HOWEVER a Cinavia-detection-enabled player will only look for the AACS folder upon detection of the Cinavia watermark. (Might as well delete it then, no watermark, no check!)

So, (3) basically, presence of an AACS folder on a DVD indicates the presence of the Cinavia watermark in the audio. The absence of the AACS folder on a DVD indicates the absence of the Cinavia watermark in the audio.