"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection [Archive] - Page 38

rotty

6th March 2013, 20:41

Correct....this is about disabling the Cinavia triggering mechanism in the player. If I recall, someone once predicted this would be the quickest way to "defeating" cinavia. Of course, they were discussing attacking firmware for hardware players, but, software players are clearly easier. This does not touch the embedded Cinavia signal in any way.

I wonder if this was a "Leak"

Either way, I bet that the Licenced S/W Player makers are well pleased with this.

Their sales of S/W players will pick up again now.

SamuriHL

6th March 2013, 21:10

rotty

6th March 2013, 21:30

I can assure you, it's not a leak. I doubt you're aware of what this means for those software players. Suffice it to say you can be sure someone's getting an @%% chewing right now from the AACS LA. This is not likely to make Cyberlink or ArcSoft very happy at all. No, this was SlySoft all the way exploiting weaknesses in how they "see" Cinavia.

Yes I just wondered.

They may well be getting a grilling but their sales WILL go up.

It should be a "Positive" lesson to the industry on how their short sightedness is so very very self defeating.

SamuriHL

6th March 2013, 22:49

omegaman7

6th March 2013, 23:05

They won't see it that way. They'll take it out on Cyberlink and ArcSoft because their implementation is weak. It'll be a major headache for them as they beef up the security and round and round we go.

LOL! They think they can leash a PC. Because that's worked so well for them so far :rolleyes: I guess I do appreciate where they're coming from. But they are sabotaging good honest people in the process :(

SamuriHL

6th March 2013, 23:37

LOL! They think they can leash a PC. Because that's worked so well for them so far :rolleyes: I guess I do appreciate where they're coming from. But they are sabotaging good honest people in the process :(

It is a hilarious attempt, I agree, but, the people that get screwed are Cyberlink and ArcSoft, and ultimately customers. So, it sucks from that view point.

rotty

7th March 2013, 00:22

Its early days to see exactly how LA will react.

An over reaction will be "cutting off their nose to spite their face".

I reckon that the "Players" will not be in any hurry to "Beef Up" their security.

Make Hay whilst the Sun shines.

Will be interesting.

SamuriHL

7th March 2013, 00:23

They will if fines or the threat of having their license pulled are in play. And from what I understand, both are on the table if they have a breach of security like this.

rotty

7th March 2013, 00:31

They will if fines or the threat of having their license pulled are in play. And from what I understand, both are on the table if they have a breach of security like this.

It is very interesting alright.

Like you say, it is a shame.

As we have probably all said and thought, if no protection whatsoever was on these disks, the price of a disk to the public would be so so so much cheaper and who the hell would bother pirating.

Just think of the amount we would buy at that, Blu Ray would have taken off big time.

These are "intelligent" people, well perhaps they just think that they are.
No business savvi (the studios that is)

LA have got savvi alright, parasites.

Guest

7th March 2013, 01:05

Drifting OT again, folks. This is for technical discussion of Cinavia. Ot posts will be deleted without further comment.

Pho3NiX

10th March 2013, 03:40

Hi

I've just found the cinavia protection.
I'm not really affected by it, but I like data processing and would like to help.

my insight: do not try to remove it :)

a) It's made specifically to be tamper resistant of simple audio transformation

b) The noise level required to confuse the protection might remove audio quality if we apply it blindly.

ALTERNATIVE:

Embed your own watermark :)

Aka add noise in the "watermark-domain" rather than in the time-domain. The watermarking algorithm will ensure that whatever noise, it'll have the least perceptible cost (while hopefully making the most damage the previously embedded watermark)

The intro of this paper is nice to explain the available watermarking methods, my bet is on "Spread-Spectrum" as it's also mentioned on wiki page.

https://anonfiles.com/file/edfd7a47d0b1fe9b064c0efd9c663bdc

---------------------

My question is ... is there still a protected sample available to investigate ?

rotty

11th March 2013, 18:43

Ghitulescu

12th March 2013, 09:14

Sorry, just realised that you probably meant, is there an audio sample "on line"
There must be, :), just google for a title known to contain cinavia, and download it on your own risks.
Because all cinavia-containing audio is commercial, and therefore protected by copyright (not that the audio made by an individual is not) and therefore the sample needed to identify the watermark clearly infringes the fair use length and thus falls under this forum's rule 6.

Chetwood

13th March 2013, 07:01

I think you probably should read up on fair use. The length itself is no dead giveaway.

Ghitulescu

13th March 2013, 11:13

Fair use is defined in USA only. In other countries "fair use" does not exist as such but as a general concept, like "crime". But this is off-topic. In order to make sure cinavia detection work, one needs at least 20 minutes of a movie. According to the general concept of "fair use" 10 times 20 is 200 minutes, which corresponds to a movie longer than 3 hours. Most movies are a bit longer than 90. This was my point.

pandy

13th March 2013, 14:07

Hi
my insight: do not try to remove it :)

a) It's made specifically to be tamper resistant of simple audio transformation

b) The noise level required to confuse the protection might remove audio quality if we apply it blindly.

ALTERNATIVE:

Embed your own watermark :)

Aka add noise in the "watermark-domain" rather than in the time-domain. The watermarking algorithm will ensure that whatever noise, it'll have the least perceptible cost (while hopefully making the most damage the previously embedded watermark)

The intro of this paper is nice to explain the available watermarking methods, my bet is on "Spread-Spectrum" as it's also mentioned on wiki page.

From Cinavia patents is quite clear that algorithm use long term pseudorandom (spread spectrum coded) audio signal phase changes that are detected by some type of sliding correlator with window time long enough to be not sensitive for local (short time) phase modulation (changes).
Cinavia phase changes are small enough to be not hear by human but long enough to carry data bits with sufficient margin of protection - so more or less analysis to detect Cinavia should focus on small phase changes in audio frequency domain with additional information that this information is localized over 7 - 9kHz.
If algorithm can detect presence for Cinavia then protection can be easily removed by nullifying phase changes made by Cinavia.

Ideally is to compare audio source protected and not protected by Cinavia in frequency/phase domain.

1Bullet

16th March 2013, 04:22

I am guilty of not reading all the post in this forum, so I will just ask. I have been dabbling with Cinavia for quite while. I will share what I know if others can confirm. I even had to buy a new standalone Blu ray player that Cinavia is activated on as I will will not update my standalone. Unfortunatly I will be forced to or forget Cinevia, nothing will play due to firmware no being able to read the encryption keys.
I am finding consistantly the original cinavia watermark is showing up at 18 to 22 minutes.
I personally finding at almost exactly 20 minutes into film.
I have been spliting the BDMV streams at this time (now) into 3 minute units then remuxing all pieces streams back together leaving out now stream 00006 ( 18 to 21 minutes) which is the timing of the Cinavia trigger.
I have done this with my own rip of Battle of LA and with other than the movie missing 3 minutes plays to the end.
This is becoming very time consuming, I am hoping to get down to the minute, then into the seconds. What I am trying to acomplish or better what I believe is that Cinavia watermark is on one frame only. And if that if that frame can be found it can be removed with out any loss of audio or video quality.
Has any one seen the triggers at different times for the Cinavia message Code 3 other than what I mentioned above.
I don't mean after it has been discovered which is right away unless you play a different disc.
I believe again what is happening is at 20 minutes on the audio that is infected ( sorry but I think of Cinavia as a Sony disease) the watermark is sending scripted code to the processor of the player ( in short like CRC check of the original AACS encryption key). The key has been removed with the rip of the disc, checker fails players processor shuts down audio processing player and creates the warning. The visual warning is a no more than a subtitle and may be easy to find on one frame than the actual watermark.

SamuriHL

16th March 2013, 08:32

The trigger is not 20 minutes. More like 30 seconds. 20 minutes is the grace period they give you before they activate Cinavia.

omegaman7

16th March 2013, 08:41

The trigger is not 20 minutes. More like 30 seconds. 20 minutes is the grace period they give you before they activate Cinavia.

Well put. I'm sure 1Bullet can hear that loud and clear ;)

Essentially, the trigger has to be absolutely certain, before triggering the cinavia message. Imagine if you were to record a wedding, with one of the movies in the background(The audio after all, is all that's required). The wedding would trip the message if it were too sensitive.

SeeMoreDigital

16th March 2013, 11:28

omegaman7

16th March 2013, 17:24

Have any of you guys tried playing your Cinavia infested blu-ray back-ups on 'non-disc spinning devices', such as a network/HDD capable media player or UPnP/DLNA TV?

You mean like a WDTV media player? I believe they're not required to support Cinavia. I don't doubt that a $ony device under that category would support cinavia detection though. $ony is the advocate after all...

SeeMoreDigital

16th March 2013, 17:48

You mean like a WDTV media player? I believe they're not required to support Cinavia. Yep... those sorts of media players ;)

Chetwood

17th March 2013, 09:34

From what I've read these player simply ignore the flage. Haven't tried it myself yet though.

jpsdr

17th March 2013, 09:42

It seems that they require to support Cinavia only if they have the possibility to read encrypted Blu-Ray (and are manufactured after feb 2012) either from an optical disc or an encrypted ISO. If they only support decrypted Blu-Ray (either decrypted ISO or BDMV directory data wich mean they can't read retail optical disc), they're not required to support Cinavia.

diogen

17th March 2013, 15:33

Starting with the very first media player with HD playback abilities (WD TV, 2008) the chipset powering them never supported DRM.
Not because the chipmakers are good guys, but because adding DRM costs money (licensing).
So, they manufacture two different chipsets: those that support DRM and go into BD-blayers and such and DRM-less used in media players.

Keith Jack (http://keithjack.net/), Sigma Designs' insider and active forum participant, said as much around that time on avsforum.

Diogen.

diogen

17th March 2013, 17:10

Just as a reference point: all the talk about new Intel CPU/chipsets and Microsoft Win8 enforcing Cinavia seems to be just that - talk.

I've tried playing about half a dozen movies (original m2ts AACS-less and mkv) that supposedly(*) have Cinavia in their soundtrack.

Win8 (Enterprise, as a VM) on the latest Z77 boards was just as ignorant of the DRM as Win7 is on the same hardware.
And considering how vague the definition of the BIOS is on a VM, one can safely assume that playback will be possible
for as long as today's VMs will be playable, i.e. for quite a while.

(*) Based on the list of movies from here (http://veehd.com/forum/viewtopic?f=263185).
I can't confirm that the soundtrack did in fact have the DRM since I don't (and never did) have a standalone player and/or console.

Diogen.

pandy

18th March 2013, 16:54

Guys - Cinavia is patented solution - it must be implemented at decoder side - this is not possible for non programmable DSP solution (ie decoder where DSP can't be modified - hard-coded or where hardware resources are not enough to support additional code). All reconfigurable/programmable DSP should be capable to support Cinavia however it means that Cinavia must be implemented and to do this vendor\developer\manufacturer must have license\nda\contract with Cinavia.
Some of those companies probably will be never trustworthy enough for Cinavia thus it is hard to expect that they implement Cinavia (cost of development and patent violation).

SeeMoreDigital

19th March 2013, 17:14

Have any of you guys tried playing your Cinavia infested blu-ray back-ups on 'non-disc spinning devices', such as a network/HDD capable media player or UPnP/DLNA TV?Has anyone?

Ghitulescu

19th March 2013, 18:36

A BD-copy that according to the internet is cinavia-infested worked in a Popcorn C200 as it worked in any of my non-cinavied real-disc-spinning BD-players.

Was this the answer to your question? And if it ware, did you expect some other results :) ?

SeeMoreDigital

19th March 2013, 19:41

A BD-copy that according to the internet is cinavia-infested worked in a Popcorn C200....That's good to know.

Has anybody else tried playing a Cinavia infested blu-ray back-ups on 'non-disc spinning devices', such as a network/HDD capable media player or UPnP/DLNA TV?

omegaman7

19th March 2013, 19:48

I've played multiple formats of Cinavia infected titles on my LG BD640 via flash drive. It has not been instructed to look for the cinavia watermark. Yet...

Don't know if it ever could or will though. We mostly watch netflix and flash drive backups. The disc player began having audio hiccups. Brief moments of no audio(fraction of a second).

diogen

20th March 2013, 23:38

Has anybody else tried playing a Cinavia infested blu-ray back-ups on 'non-disc spinning devices'...Is this a joke?
None of the "non-disc spinning devices" pay any attention to DRM.
Because none of them are authorized (and never will be) BD players.

Not all of them will play BD backups - can't play ISOs, can't handle bandwidth, etc. - but if they do, they couldn't care less about DRM.

There is another class of devices that does this perfectly since the week muslix64 made his first post - computers.
It would be harder to make a PC notice DRM than ignore it...:)

Diogen.

SeeMoreDigital

21st March 2013, 10:33

Is this a joke?
None of the "non-disc spinning devices" pay any attention to DRM.
Because none of them are authorized (and never will be) BD players.

Not all of them will play BD backups - can't play ISOs, can't handle bandwidth, etc. - but if they do, they couldn't care less about DRM.
So there you have it then... Given it's possible to play Cinavia infested Blu-ray and DVD back-up's on "non-disc spinning devices", Cinavia is not really that much of a problem.

Indeed, I've tested my two DNLA TV's and 4 media players (including Oppo BDP-103) and found that I can play such files stored on my NAS perfectly...

Guest

21st March 2013, 14:34

Again I remind you this thread is not for general DRM discussion. OT/inflammatory posts have been removed. Please constrain yourselves to technical matters concerning Cinavia in this thread. You are free to start other threads for more general discussion regarding DRM.

SamuriHL

26th March 2013, 01:01

http://www.dvd2hd.com/2013/03/25/cinex-delayed-or-hoax/

Their claims to having a Cinavia solution really don't sit well with me. They claim they're going to release a white paper on Cinavia. That should give us all the technical information we need about how Cinavia works. I, however, won't be holding my breath on that white paper being forth coming. Ever.

Big Vern

1st April 2013, 11:41

Cinavia busted!!!

Was looking good till I realized what the date is today :)

http://www.myce.com/news/myce-releases-tool-for-circumventing-cinavia-protection-66639/

SamuriHL

1st April 2013, 12:18

Cinavia fix... Xifaivanic. ;)

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk HD

libawm

18th April 2013, 20:16

http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=295800&postcount=1108

Ch3vr0n

18th April 2013, 22:01

Euhm the post you link to is 2 years old.

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Mark_Venture

23rd April 2013, 15:48

So there you have it then... Given it's possible to play Cinavia infested Blu-ray and DVD back-up's on "non-disc spinning devices", Cinavia is not really that much of a problem.

Indeed, I've tested my two DNLA TV's and 4 media players (including Oppo BDP-103) and found that I can play such files stored on my NAS perfectly...
So is it safe to say that Bluray players (like Sony, Panasonic, LG, etc) that support DLNA Playback from a DLNA media server in order to play or file stream blurays that are backed up to MKV files should not be impacted?

I've seen posts/talk about PS3 being impacted, is that only when playing via a burned bluray (BD-R) disc? or via DLNA also?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand because I'm looking at getting a 3D bluray player (possibly Sony BDPS5100), and I'm concerned about being able to play my backups (made with BD-Rebuilder) from my media server via DLNA. (I use windows file sharing with my OLD LG BD390 and BD570 2D players now, without issue, but looks like all newer players only support DLNA)

SeeMoreDigital

23rd April 2013, 16:31

So is it safe to say that Bluray players (like Sony, Panasonic, LG, etc) that support DLNA Playback from a DLNA media server in order to play or file stream blurays that are backed up to MKV files should not be impacted?No... It's not safe to say that at all.

I can only speak from my own personal experiences using my own equipment...

sneaker_ger

23rd April 2013, 16:35

So is it safe to say that Bluray players (like Sony, Panasonic, LG, etc) that support DLNA Playback from a DLNA media server in order to play or file stream blurays that are backed up to MKV files should not be impacted?

No, not at all. The only players that are relatively safe are the ones that do not have Blu-Ray drives. Since it costs money to license and implement Cinavia and customers don't want Cinavia, firms will usually avoid it if they can. The Oppo player seems to be an exception (short google search suggests it does not implement Cinavia for mkv), but I wouldn't rely on a Sony player to behave the same (not least because Sony is a content producer as well and might have a different stance on copy protection than pure player manufacturers). Your best bet is a separate player.

Ch3vr0n

23rd April 2013, 17:20

You're both wrong. Dlna players can have a bluray drive just fine and not be impacted by cinavia. The only thing that matters is the player LICENSING date. If that date is before Feb 1st 2012, then mandatory cinavia detection is not required. Not for a disc, not for an avi, not for an mkv, not for anything. Is that that Feb 1st or lager, then mandatory detection is required for any playable source. Whether it is a dvd, bluray, mobile movie format (avi, mkv, MPG, hdd rip, ISO) doesn't matter. Any player licensed (NOT MANUFACTURED) after that date must detect it. So even if a player was still being produced and receives updates today, if it was licensed before Feb 1st 2012 it doesn't need cinavia detection capabilities.

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sneaker_ger

23rd April 2013, 19:07

My answer was not wrong. There are players that had Cinavia even before that date (this thread was opened mid 2010), but I don't know a single player without Blu-Ray capabilities that has Cinavia.

SeeMoreDigital

23rd April 2013, 20:20

...but I don't know a single player without Blu-Ray capabilities that has Cinavia.Agreed...

setarip_old

29th April 2013, 18:37

Although I don't own one, I'd speculate that any SONY brand DVD-only player, portable or otherwise, is likely to have Verance/"Cinavia" built in, if it was licensed after February 2012 - or perhaps earlier (since it's our "friends" at SONY we're talking about)

1Bullet

4th May 2013, 03:25

The only thing that matters is the player LICENSING date. If that date is before Feb 1st 2012, then mandatory cinavia detection is not required. Not for a disc, not for an avi, not for an mkv, not for anything. Is that that Feb 1st or lager, then mandatory detection is required for any playable source. Whether it is a dvd, bluray, mobile movie format (avi, mkv, MPG, hdd rip, ISO) doesn't matter. Any player licensed (NOT MANUFACTURED) after that date must detect it. So even if a player was still being produced and receives updates today, if it was licensed before Feb 1st 2012 it doesn't need cinavia detection capabilities.

I beg to differ, I have multiple Samsung BD players now. I have 2 X BD 5300 made on Apr.and Sept 2011 , 2 x BD 5700 made Oct and Nov. 2011 and 1 X LG BD640C. On one of each of the Samsungs , after being update by Samsung in Feb 2012 to firware version 1023.0, they now detect cinavia. The other 2 are at earlier versions and will never be allowed, by me to update. The second BD 5300 I just picked up a month ago for $ 69.00 with v. 1017 installed. The infected BD 5700, I have screwed up trying to test code I wrote updating it to v.1050, a no existant firmware. My firmware worked kinda but screwed me up thinking cinavia watermark is at the 20-22 minute. The player still works but need to try writing more code. This is where I now feel cinavia fix will come from. The hardware needs to be patched, similar to making a player region free.
But with both cinavia infected Samsungs and the LG playing MKV, AVI of solid state HDD,or USB (36 gb) cinavia warning 3 will pop up. even converting audio to MP3 which is a waste.
So now anything I want to back up with Cinavia, is now Movie Only, cause you only need new firmware updates for the special features and java menus. The un-update players play these backups with no issues. A recent example Zero Dark Thirty. The dvd audio is 3 seconds longer making it impossible to sink to the blu-ray by muxing, even worse out of 5 of the 16 chapers they are also different lenghts. just so the DVD audio can not be used.
Cinavia fix is going to come from hardware fixes.

hello_hello

7th May 2013, 23:22

I beg to differ, I have multiple Samsung BD players now. I have 2 X BD 5300 made on Apr.and Sept 2011 , 2 x BD 5700 made Oct and Nov. 2011 and 1 X LG BD640C. On one of each of the Samsungs , after being update by Samsung in Feb 2012 to firware version 1023.0, they now detect cinavia.

What Ch3vr0n posted is correct. Cinavia is mandatory for players licensed after the cut-off date. It doesn't mean players prior to that date can't contain Cinavia and it doesn't mean firmware upgrades for players sold prior to the cutoff date can't contain Cinavia, it just means it wasn't mandatory.

I don't know how Cinavia is implemented in hardware, but as it seems the same firmware update can sometimes be used for several models from a particular manufacturer, I suspect many manufacturers decided to include Cinavia earlier than required simply so they didn't have to maintain two versions of firmware.... one with Cinavia and one without. Hence some firmware updates for older model players contain Cinavia even though it wassn't mandatory for it to do so. At least that's my theory.

Where I am (Australia), it's surprised me Sony still don't appear to have released Cinavia infected firmware for any model sold before the cuto-off date, even if it was a current model at the time (with one exception). I'd assume newer models have it, but most of the players which were current at the time have only had a single firmware update since the cut-off date. Maybe because the players haven't required further firmware updates Sony decided it wasn't worth releasing new firmware solely for the purpose of adding Cinavia? Or maybe those Australian model players didn't have Cinavia implemented in hardware?

rotty

8th May 2013, 16:42

Or maybe those Australian model players didn't have Cinavia implemented in hardware?

Im not sure if the player have H/W to detect Cinavia, they just have to have powerfull enough Processor to do it on the fly without running out of steam to do playback.

For example, Cinavia is impelmented in some S/W PC players, the PC has no Cinavia detection H/W.

AFAIK, earlier players cannot impliment the Watermark detection routines simply because they are not powerfull enough to do it in real time and playback.

hello_hello

10th May 2013, 02:52

Im not sure if the player have H/W to detect Cinavia, they just have to have powerfull enough Processor to do it on the fly without running out of steam to do playback.

You're probably right. My player's the BDP-S480, and while I'd assume it's powerful enough, I have no idea if it contains the same hardware as the same model player in other countries.
Out of curiosity I just checked, and the last firmware update for my player in Australia was April 2012 and it's not advertised as containing Cinavia. I looked at Sony's African site and it's exactly the same. The only advertised change in the firmware is "BRAVIA Internet Video improvement".

Unfortunately Sony keeps re-directing me when I try to use their U.S. or European sites, so I had to rely on Google's cache instead, but it appears the last US firmware release for the 480 was August 2012 and it's advertised as containing Cinavia along with a host of other updates/improvements.

As the same firmware download seems to apply to all models in a series (ie BDP-S480/S485/S580/S780) and some countries/regions seem to have Cinavia infected firmware for a particular model while other countries regions don't, I could only speculate as to the reason. Maybe they contain different hardware, maybe Sony decided it's not worth releasing firmware solely for the purpose of adding Cinavia in some countries/regions, or maybe it was purely a marketing decision. I don't know anybody who bothers updating their Bluray player firmware anyway, as we don't seem to need to where I am. I have a friend with a BDP-S360 which still plays all the discs she buys and it's so old I'm pretty sure it can't play video via USB.

While I was looking around I did notice the newer models (490/590/790), which were released after the cut-off date, still don't have firmware updates which are advertised as containing Cinavia where I am. The updates for those players in the U.S. do advertise Cinavia. I'm only speculating, but it does imply those players weren't Cinavia capable when they were originally released, even though they were released after the cut-off date (I guess they were licensed before then). Taking that speculation a step further, maybe Sony are still selling Bluray players without Cinavia in some regions (ie where I am).

Anyone in the Asia-Pacific region who owns a 490/590/790 and can confirm whether or not it had Cinavia out of the box?
Out of curiosity, next time I drive past my local store I might call in and ask if they can tell me whether any of the players they currently sell are Cinavia-free.