"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[setarip_old]

@"hello_hello"

I'm sure your good buddy will hasten to point out to you that there is a difference between "MANUFACTURED" before a certain date and "SOLD" before a certain date.

Regardless, the salient point is that it seems that shortly "Cinavia"/Verance watermarking will be pervasive...

[hello_hello]

@ setarip_old,
Yes, I guess if you want to make a distinction between "manufactured" and "sold", then in context the statement does seem to be somewhat self contradictory, given products are always manufactured prior to the date they are actually sold.
Given Cinavia watermarking shortly becoming pervasive has been the salient point for quite a while now (nearly a year and a half in this thread), I guess it'll be interesting to see if in fact it is finally shortly to become pervasive. I guess we've only got to wait a little over a month to find out, but as you've pointed out yourself, there seems to be very few releases containing it. It seems a little odd for a certain detection to be mandatory in a player if there's generally nothing for it to detect.

Maybe though, studios are waiting for the time most players will detect Cinavia before bothering to include it in their releases. If the 1st January deadline happens to be accurate, maybe next year it'll be hard to find a disc which doesn't include it. I guess we won't have to wait long to find out.

One thing seems certain, if there is a deadline, most hardware manufacturers are happy to wait until the last minute. Even Sony doesn't seem to want to let it's corporate morals interfere with it's sale of Bluray players.

[rotty]

@ setarip_old,
Yes, I guess if you want to make a distinction between "manufactured" and "sold", then in context the statement does seem to be somewhat self contradictory, given products are always manufactured prior to the date they are actually sold.
Given Cinavia watermarking shortly becoming pervasive has been the salient point for quite a while now (nearly a year and a half in this thread), I guess it'll be interesting to see if in fact it is finally shortly to become pervasive. I guess we've only got to wait a little over a month to find out, but as you've pointed out yourself, there seems to be very few releases containing it. It seems a little odd for a certain detection to be mandatory in a player if there's generally nothing for it to detect.

Maybe though, studios are waiting for the time most players will detect Cinavia before bothering to include it in their releases. If the 1st January deadline happens to be accurate, maybe next year it'll be hard to find a disc which doesn't include it. I guess we won't have to wait long to find out.

One thing seems certain, if there is a deadline, most hardware manufacturers are happy to wait until the last minute. Even Sony doesn't seem to want to let it's corporate morals interfere with it's sale of Bluray players.

Yes, your last point is surprising seeing how Sony is usually unsurpassed in shooting itself in the foot.

Do you reckon that in the boardroom at Sony, they all sit round the table and try and think of things to make their latest product fail.

e.g.
"I’ve got it, lets piss off the law abiding public and corrupt the so called HD AUDIO and make it impossible for them to back up their hard bought disks, that should massively reduce sales for us"

If I were a shareholder in Sony, I would want the "head on a plate" of the guy whos idea it was to incorporate this perversion, I wouldnt want a man with that business head messing with my money.

[Ghitulescu]

If the 1st January deadline happens to be accurate, maybe next year it'll be hard to find a disc which doesn't include it. I guess we won't have to wait long to find out.
There were far many more unprotected original VHS-cassettes than those protected with Macrovision, even after 1985. Don't mix up the marchandise with its package.One thing seems certain, if there is a deadline, most hardware manufacturers are happy to wait until the last minute. Even Sony doesn't seem to want to let it's corporate morals interfere with it's sale of Bluray players. Like Sony will give a damn **** on those sales. Sony dropped manufacturing things long time ago, almost everything coming from Sony is just relabelled. Instead Sony gets a lot of money from IP things. Apparently they learned the American lesson, and very well.

[hello_hello]

There were far many more unprotected original VHS-cassettes than those protected with Macrovision, even after 1985. Don't mix up the marchandise with its package.

Don't mix up the merchandise with it's package? What does that mean?
How many people bothered duplicating VHS tapes or transferring them to DVD anyway? It doesn't seem relevant.


Like Sony will give a damn **** on those sales. Sony dropped manufacturing things long time ago, almost everything coming from Sony is just relabelled. Instead Sony gets a lot of money from IP things. Apparently they learned the American lesson, and very well.

Well you tell me then, why haven't Sony rushed to implement Cinavia in their Bluray players? They've certainly not been shy to inflict the PS3 with it. I was just offering a theory. You're not even offering an alternative one.

[Ghitulescu]

There were far many more unprotected original VHS-cassettes than those protected with Macrovision, even after 1985. Don't mix up the marchandise with its package.

Don't mix up the merchandise with it's package? What does that mean?
How many people bothered duplicating VHS tapes or transferring them to DVD anyway? It doesn't seem relevant.

If the 1st January deadline happens to be accurate, maybe next year it'll be hard to find a disc which doesn't include it. I guess we won't have to wait long to find out.

Cinavia implementation is mandatory for PLAYERS not for discs.

[derbeDeus]

As I said previously, is it just me or is "the silence deafening" from our friends at Verance regarding applications of "Cinavia"?

It appears that, over the last few months, there have been less than a handful of new releases that contain "Cinavia"...

I don't think they "slowed down". It appears that all next releases from Sony will have Cinavia...

Well you tell me then, why haven't Sony rushed to implement Cinavia in their Bluray players? They've certainly not been shy to inflict the PS3 with it. I was just offering a theory. You're not even offering an alternative one.

You cannot know if they implemented it or not in their Bluray players. It's just they didn't activated it yet. ;)
There is a reason why they put it in PS3 and not in regular players. Cinavia in a bluray player will definitely affect sales if people have alternatives. That's why nobody wants to be first to activate it. PS3 is a different story: not only that they wanted to have a test, but what device can be better than one designed for another purpose than playing blurays. Sales are not affected and people will not moan too much about the crippled bd player.

[hello_hello]

Cinavia implementation is mandatory for PLAYERS not for discs.
It seems a little odd for a certain detection to be mandatory in a player if there's generally nothing for it to detect.
Maybe though, studios are waiting for the time most players will detect Cinavia before bothering to include it in their releases.
Who said anything about it being mandatory for discs?

[hello_hello]

You cannot know if they implemented it or not in their Bluray players. It's just they didn't activated it yet.

I've no doubt their players will be capable of Cinavia detection after a firmware upgrade which includes it, but until they do, it's not been implemented.

There is a reason why they put it in PS3 and not in regular players. Cinavia in a bluray player will definitely affect sales if people have alternatives. That's why nobody wants to be first to activate it.

Which was exactly my point. (am I not typing in English here?) A point I made because one poster claimed Sony don't care about their Bluray player sales without offering an alternative explanation as to why they haven't implemented it.

[derbeDeus]

I've no doubt their players will be capable of Cinavia detection after a firmware upgrade which includes it, but until they do, it's not been implemented.

For the reasons I stated above I believe that a lot of players already have the cinavia detector implemented, but it is not yet activated. Because they'll all activate it at the same time (for sales reason), implementing, deployment and testing should be done in advance. And since PS3 has it in, I think Sony other bluray players are already cinavia capable and they're just waiting D-Day.

[Ghitulescu]

A point I made because one poster claimed Sony don't care about their Bluray player sales without offering an alternative explanation as to why they haven't implemented it.
the explanation was given, but let's put the ripe fruit in the open mouth of lazy thinkers :)

Because there's no other source of HD content than the blu-ray, on which they hold the licences and part of distribution. Easy money, no headaches. The PS3, people say it's the most sold blu-ray player, fulfilled its purpose, now it's neglected (it serves now only as a testing device). Sony is much more than a manufacturer of blu-ray-players, its revenues from PS3 (it includes the games) are matched by those from movie sector. All of them are no match to its music business (sales of CDs and other media, but not audio-gear!!!). Even the insurance business represent twice the money they get from audio/video electronics (excluded PS series because they are game consoles, not A/V).

[hello_hello]

For the reasons I stated above I believe that a lot of players already have the cinavia detector implemented, but it is not yet activated.

You seriously can't see we're saying exactly the same thing, just using different terminology?

the explanation was given, but let's put the ripe fruit in the open mouth of lazy thinkers

An explanation wasn't given. I offered a theory as to why Sony haven't implemented Cinavia in their Bluray players, you stated they don't care about Bluray player sales which makes the theory invalid. Therefore I asked you why you think they haven't implemented it yet, not for a paragraph of confabulation which actually suggests they've no reason not to.
Ripe fruit in the mouth of lazy thinkers?? Pfffffft...... Once again I've got to defend insults coming from someone who constantly needs to have the topic explained to him.

[derbeDeus]

You seriously can't see we're saying exactly the same thing, just using different terminology?

Indeed, I can't. You said that a firmware update will implement it. I don't think that's the case. A firmware update is applied when/if the user wants. Manufacturers and AACS won't leave that to chance. It's more like a time bomb activation, I think.

[Ghitulescu]

A firmware update is applied when/if the user wants. Manufacturers and AACS won't leave that to chance. It's more like a time bomb activation, I think.

I tend to agree with this opinion. The HW is in place, it only need a new FW to implement the detection. The detection itself is very simple and does not put any requirements to the HW (it this HW withstands the java, it will do the detection just well :)).

The user can be forced to do himself a HW upgrade. Since disc 1 I receive the blue paper "kindly reminding me" to upgrade the FW "to take advantage of all digital benefices" or even to be able to play the disc. In two years still no problems, but there are people that might consider this ;), seriously I mean.

Then if the carrot is not working it comes the stick: there might be discs so authored (read protected) that a FW is really needed in order to play it. I'll think what to do firstly when I'll find one.

And the "hidden" thing: there might be involuntary upgrades everytime the player connects itself to the internet, allegedly to load BD-live content***. AFAIK the LGs can upgrade the FW this way.

*** I think that BD-live is the worst joke the studios played on consumers - they sell you "dynamic content", which you have to pay each time you want to see (the internet access), those availability depends entirely on the studios (you can save them locally, but this space is limited and remotely erasable), you pay more for BD-live-compatibility on the player (not much, but anyway), BD-live counts the usage of a particular title and allows lots of backdoors and traps, and I can go on and on.

[hello_hello]

Indeed, I can't. You said that a firmware update will implement it. I don't think that's the case. A firmware update is applied when/if the user wants. Manufacturers and AACS won't leave that to chance. It's more like a time bomb activation, I think.

Sure there's probably many ways the user could be tricked/coerced/fooled into applying a Firmware update containing Cinavia, but as for currently installed firmware having dormant Cinavia detection capabilities which will suddenly become active.... personally I doubt it.

[Ghitulescu]

After checking with the mods team about rule 6 ...

almost all Blu-rays with cinavia are titles like The green Hornet, Resident Evil and similar, that not only are not intellectually challenging :) but also cost a lot, God knows why. I will not spend 29.95€, nor 24.90 nor even 19.90 for a movie I don't like, sorry about that. I do not own nor will buy any of the movies listed in wikipedia as containing cinavia. Under the fair use doctrine (not the same intended use, no commercial use, extremely short samples, pure educational/research) I dare to ask for samples of cinavia infected parts of the shortest possible length but at least 20 seconds long, 1 minute I think will suffices. I intend to burn BD25, BD5 and SD/USB, and to test a whole range of European players against it, now on the twelfth hour, before cinavia will be mandatory on all players falling under the AACS provisions. I'll probably repeat the test next year, in summer or in the fall.

The results will be posted here, if this will be of interest, so people may buy their spare player before it's too late.

The samples should not contain THD audio, as I cannot process them with tsmuxer or any other SW using it, like multiAVCHD, unless there is a way unknown to me. The samples must absolutely positive contain cinavia, as rumours are that not all audio tracks do contain it, or that discs sold in a particular region don't contain it, otherwise the test will be flawed.

To protect the site, the samples should be PM directly to me.

[setarip_old]

@Ghitulescu

Hi! I dare to ask for samples of cinavia infected parts of the shortest possible length but at least 20 seconds long, 1 minute I think will suffices.Am I misunderstanding you?

If you're intent is to test players (not the Blu-ray discs), why would you need more than one sample?

[Ghitulescu]

Because there are 7 algorithms (at the last count, today maybe more, I haven't checked the latest documentation).

[setarip_old]

@Ghitulescu

Because there are 7 algorithmsAnd won't ALL "Cinavia-ready" players respond to ANY and ALL of the algorithms?

If so, ALL players could be tested with ANY one "Cinavia"/Verance infected Blu-ray video, couldn't they?

[Ghitulescu]

AFAIK there is a sort of main channel that keeps the index key to the matching algorithm/s, this allows a lower bandwidth and a lesser impact on the audio quality.

[setarip_old]

@Ghitulescu

I don't believe that your post #1170 is a response (direct or otherwise) to my post #1169.

I see nothing in your post that specifically indicates a need for more than one "Cinavia"/Verance infected sample to test ANY and ALL players.

If I've overlooked or misunderstood something in your post(s), please feel free to enlighten me.

And, of course if, on the other hand, you now understand and agree with my suggested "one sample fits all" approach, please acknowledge...

[hello_hello]

It certainly seems to make sense that if a player is capable of detecting Cinavia it should be able to detect all variations of it. Therefore if it detects it in one sample it'd detect it in the rest, or of not, it won't.

[jetli]

As of now with current firmware, these machines do not
have any cinavia problems. The date for mandatory cinavia is now 2/1/12 according to their website.

http://www.verance.com/AdminSavR/news/news_item.php?news_id=66

i agree with whoever specified, the machines are just waiting to be enabled. After 2/1 check for firmware updates, just beware
any update could then make your machines stop playing
cinavia disks. I will not be updating mine.

jetli

[Ghitulescu]

And won't ALL "Cinavia-ready" players respond to ANY and ALL of the algorithms?
I frankly don't know this. The way cinavia is implemented is mentioned in my post below
AFAIK there is a sort of main channel that keeps the index key to the matching algorithm/s, this allows a lower bandwidth and a lesser impact on the audio quality.

I don't believe that your post #1170 is a response (direct or otherwise) to my post #1169.

I see nothing in your post that specifically indicates a need for more than one "Cinavia"/Verance infected sample to test [COLOR="DarkRed"]ANY and ALL players.

I asked for samples to be sure. Besides, there has to be a minimum size to be burned on a BD and/or DVD-RW in order to be able to be recognized by the players. I have nothing against you to do it if you think there is something wrong with my request, unlike me you have some cinavia titles.

The date for mandatory cinavia is now 2/1/12 according to their website.
American format or European? First of February or Second of January? The end of the world should occur some later in the year according to the Maya calender :)

[xenex]

Ghitulescu-

Unless I am misreading your intentions, what you will REALLY need is a sample of Ciniavia-affected audio from a "cam-rip" from a theater or such. Because only those give a Cinavia error within seconds. Cinavia audio from a Blu-Ray source has the 20-minute-or-so 'grace period' and using a one minute sample, you would not know if it were detected or not.

[Ghitulescu]

Frankly I have no idea what kind of sample I need, important is that it must contain cinavia and it should be Blu-ray compatible. If it's not, then it's of no use, as the mediaplayers, which usually are used to play such things, are not affected by cinavia, in theory. In practice, as I said it before, since they all reside on only 3 solutions from 3 chip-manufacturers, and since these chips are also used in blu-ray-players and STBs and mobile HD-devices, and since these chips are upgradable (the last one or two FW upgrades for Sigma Designs chips do contain cinavia), there is a major risk to have them contaminated too.

But for now, I am only thinking of blu-ray-players. Besides, cam-rips and other "indirect" sources do not test the existence of cinavia, but the strength of its survival.

Yes, I know that cinavia is detected within seconds, even within a splitsecond (read an older post of mine in this thread), however this is known only to the player until it triggers the subroutine. I need to see the warning screen. 20 minutes samples will probably infringe the fair use concept. My reasoning was that even if the length of the video piece is less than 20 minutes and cinavia is present the subroutine will be triggered, otherwise one can circumvent cinavia but making a "patchwork" (seamless playback of shorter-than-20-minutes videos, sort of chapter by chapter).

[SamuriHL]

I want to throw some serious speculation out there as food for thought. I've been thinking about the concept of enabling Cinavia in firmware updates on existing players. The question is how could they FORCE people to update. I have a very scary thought on that. What would happen if they revoke all player keys for players that they wish to update to Cinavia? This mechanism exists. They revoke player keys all the time. All that's needed is to play a disc with a new MKB that has the player key revoked. BOOM, instant need for a firmware update to update the player key. Oh, and add Cinavia. This would target all the "I'm not going to use updated firmware" people because at that point they'd have no choice in order to play original discs. Anyway, this is PURE speculation as to how they could force the update, but, given the way that blu-ray technology works, this is sadly plausible.

[laserfan]

The question is how could they FORCE people to update.
Even assuming this is technically possible i.e. that older players possess the ability to detect Cinavia thru a firmware update, to force such a thing on all players could result in huge problems for the manufacturers. I have no doubt that every time they have to do a firmware update, for whatever reason, that there are some significant number of customers that either can't do it, or fail miserably at it, resulting in problems for Customer Service and their warranty/repair/service divisions.

So to force such a thing on old players can result in significant expenses for the mfr. No doubt that's one of the reasons for the "incorporate after such-and-such date to new players" to give mfrs some breathing space in this regard.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but I REALLY doubt mfrs want to do ANYTHING AT ALL that might increase their costs or anger their customer base!

[SamuriHL]

Which I think explains why so few have added Cinavia so far. ;) I never said it would be easy or palatable. Just simply possible. :) Revoke the player key, force an update, slip in Cinavia. Of course, this would only work for players that are physically capable (i.e. have enough processing power) to handle Cinavia checking. But, players manufactured after what, september 2008, are supposed to be "cinavia capable", yes? At least according to what we've read. So, that leaves a lot of room for them to sneakily activate Cinavia detection on players sold after that date that currently don't have that functionality working. Like I said, just throwing it out there for food for thought.

P.S. All those players can update the firmware over the network as they're BD Live capable, as well. Makes it much easier...

[Ghitulescu]

I want to throw some serious speculation out there as food for thought. I've been thinking about the concept of enabling Cinavia in firmware updates on existing players. The question is how could they FORCE people to update.
They did the following AFAIK:
- put a flyer on each disc to prompt the user to upgrade. I received one with each disc I've bought since the first one. My Pio still works, without any upgrade, but only the future will tell what will happen
- they do the ancient (to me) trick of combining the good news with the bad (silent) one: for instance, they launch a player which has very good specifications, however an essential feature is missing, like decoding DTS-MA. The FW upgrade solves this issue but adds cinavia, namely silently because this is how the licensing contract requires - they did this on Pioneer and on PS3
- they could upload the FW in the background, each time the BD-live player connects itself to the internet - my player was specifically bought without LAN to prevent accidents
- they launch movies so heavily protected that cannot be played by not-upgraded players - that was the case with Avatar
I have a very scary thought on that. What would happen if they revoke all player keys for players that they wish to update to Cinavia? This mechanism exists. They revoke player keys all the time. All that's needed is to play a disc with a new MKB that has the player key revoked. BOOM, instant need for a firmware update to update the player key. Oh, and add Cinavia. This would target all the "I'm not going to use updated firmware" people because at that point they'd have no choice in order to play original discs. Anyway, this is PURE speculation as to how they could force the update, but, given the way that blu-ray technology works, this is sadly plausible.
One issue concerns the people with money. The same thing, but reversed, concerns the people with less money.
The first ones buy expensive gear, like Pioneer, Denon, Marantz or even the Goldmund Eidos. They can't be stressed with things like this, or these companies will have a hard time explaining to a customer that paid 20.000$ for a player why he can't use it. These companies will never ever be blacklisted.
The second ones buy 50$ players, but in millions. Those companies were the same that brought the divx support for DVD-players, inspite the strong opposition of Hollywood. They will find a way to solve this issue too - be it the simplest way of reversing the firmware.
The most touched people will be, as usual, those relying on gear like Sony/Panasonic, both manufacturers and both owners of studios.
Bottom line - I won't be worried too much about this, no player means no revenues for Hollywood, and the flourish of piracy, since the mediaplayers are not yet affected by cinavia.
End of story.

[SamuriHL]

True enough. And I've been told by others now that my theory of revoking the player keys is not likely. So I will relent on that one. :) I simply wanted to say that the theory was POSSIBLE, regardless of how likely it is. Software players (PDVD, TMT, WinDVD, PS3) have auto-revoking keys that require updates every few months. To my knowledge, no hardware player key has been revoked. But the methodology exists in the AACS standard to do so. That was my only point. As for introducing artificial problems that are "solved" by updating the firmware, yes, I definitely believe that. And I get your point about high end equipment vs cheap equipment vs the rest stuck in the middle.

[hello_hello]

I want to throw some serious speculation out there as food for thought. I've been thinking about the concept of enabling Cinavia in firmware updates on existing players. The question is how could they FORCE people to update. I have a very scary thought on that. What would happen if they revoke all player keys for players that they wish to update to Cinavia?

While I wouldn't say it's impossible, does the Cinavia licence agreement say anything about pre-existing or older players having to be updated to detect Cinavia before a certain date etc?
Because if not I'd wonder why the manufacturers, who certainly seem to be in no hurry to include it in their hardware until they absolutely have to, would want to force it onto owners of existing devices unless they have to. There may be a reason why they would, but from the hardware manufacturer's viewpoint I'm not sure what it might be.

[SamuriHL]

I don't think the hardware mfg's WANT to add Cinavia unless they are also a content provider (ahem, Sony). But they have a license agreement with the AACSLA. Who knows what that agreement says. Nonetheless, while what I'm saying is technically possible, I've relented and agree that it's incredibly unlikely. Just be aware of it. Cause if they do it, I'm coming back and posting a big I told you so! :D J/K :)

[laserfan]

I don't think the hardware mfg's WANT to add Cinavia...Just be aware of it.
Oh come on then. We've been aware of this possibility since the very first appearance of Cinavia, what, a year, three years ago? Why are you trying to get people wound-up about it at this time?

[SamuriHL]

Oh come on then. We've been aware of this possibility since the very first appearance of Cinavia, what, a year, three years ago? Why are you trying to get people wound-up about it at this time?

Because we're closing in on the date that it's about to become MANDATORY. Is that really all that hard to understand? Give me a break.

[setarip_old]

If nothing else, at that time it will be interesting to see what, if any, NEW wrinkles Verance may have up its sleeve - and what NEW developments the developers/programmers/hackers in and around our community may have quietly come up with...

[SamuriHL]

If nothing else, at that time it will be interesting to see what, if any, NEW wrinkles Verance may have up its sleeve - and what NEW developments the developers/programmers/hackers in and around our community may have quietly come up with...

I agree. My intent wasn't to get people "wound up". It was to open a discussion based up on what I CLEARLY labelled speculation about what possibilities could be done. Personally, I know if I bought a player in the past year or two that I thought was "safe" from Cinavia and they add it in sneakily, I'd be pretty upset. Since we're getting very close to the mandatory date for which ALL players sold must include Cinavia detection, I thought it might be prudent to discuss the possibilities for existing players and what, IF ANYTHING, that could mean to them. Apparently others disagree that it's worth thinking about. I suspect we'll find out soon enough. And I'm more curious as to whether more studios decide to adopt Cinavia once all the players being sold support it.

[jetli]

According to a tech at OPPO digital, there is no firm requirement or date that Cinavia has to be implemented in any given player.
But he did say, that if, Cinavia wished it to be a secret, they would have to keep it a secret.

2/1/12 is the big date. Be leary of any firmware updates after that. BTW, 2/1/12 is just 30 days past the holidays!
Any conspiracy theorists out there?

t

[SamuriHL]

Yea, their license with the AACS LA has to be followed, so, I suspect that includes provisions for "silently increasing security". So that wouldn't surprise anyone. That'd not be a popular decision with their customers though. Oppo players aren't cheap.

[Ghitulescu]

According to a tech at OPPO digital, there is no firm requirement or date that Cinavia has to be implemented in any given player.

People answering the public questions have a standard set of clauses, any deviance might have serious consequences, and a new job, even in China, is not something easy to be obtained.

Besides, Rovi and AAC-LA do not say anything about the production of a certain device, but they insist on the sales (as this will infringe the patents), and if one doesn't sale, either file for bankruptcy, or modifies the HW/SW.

[laserfan]

My intent wasn't to get people "wound up".When someone makes hundreds (perhaps thousands) of posts on this subject, over multiple AV boards over multiple years, and on a topic that has already been over-discussed to death, well at some point I have to believe there's an agenda somewhere. If not I think it qualifies as panic-peddling.

"Cinavia is falling! Cinavia is falling!" :p

[SamuriHL]

When someone makes hundreds (perhaps thousands) of posts on this subject, over multiple AV boards over multiple years, and on a topic that has already been over-discussed to death, well at some point I have to believe there's an agenda somewhere. If not I think it qualifies as panic-peddling.

"Cinavia is falling! Cinavia is falling!" :p

Then I suggest you put me on your ignore list and move along then. I'm sorry discussion about Cinavia and it's possible ramifications for people who have paid for equipment and content causes you to think I'm "panic peddling". :rolleyes: But honestly, I really don't care what your opinion is.

[[SLiM]D12]

One thing i've noticed, and i'm not sure why, but lately only blurays have been coming out with cinavia. The DVD's don't have it and i'm a little confused. There was a time where they were including on both formats ,but they've stopped dvd for quite a few movies in 2011, just take a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia#List_of_Known_Releases_with_Cinavia_Watermarking

[SamuriHL]

D12;1543788']One thing i've noticed, and i'm not sure why, but lately only blurays have been coming out with cinavia. The DVD's don't have it and i'm a little confused. There was a time where they were including on both formats ,but they've stopped dvd for quite a few movies in 2011, just take a look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia#List_of_Known_Releases_with_Cinavia_Watermarking

I wonder if they ran into issues with those titles? It's weird, though, as all they were doing is adding an AACS folder on the DVD so that Cinavia enabled blu-ray players could verify the DVD's as a trusted source. I haven't honestly looked at the DVD's that have come with my latest titles. But that's definitely interesting. There's not exactly a "lot" of discs with Cinavia on it anyway. But I would have thought since they were doing the DVD thing they'd continue with it. Weird.

[Ghitulescu]

Even assuming this is technically possible i.e. that older players possess the ability to detect Cinavia thru a firmware update, to force such a thing on all players could result in huge problems for the manufacturers.

It appears that there is a misunderstanding in what cinavia is and how it acts.
Unlike the digital CPS usually called Macrovision after the company that implemented it, and which was designed to prevent the copying of a DVD to a tape or another DVD using a DVD-recorder, cinavia doesn't prevent any copying. Macrovision-infected DVDs contain a bit saying Stop, this is protected, you damn pirate, erh, dear customer, and the detection of this bit set will make the player issue a signal to a hardware GPU that will then add the macrovision flavours to the analog signal: the AGC-pulses, the colorstripes, and the corresponding bits in the VBI lines (for DVD-recorders).

Cinavia will prevent only the playback of a illegitimate copy. To this end, a software subroutine analyses the decoded signal (decoding audio is a mandatory feature of all blu-ray players from profile 1.1) for a watermark, this is then decoded to find the algorithms used to hide the real watermark. Once this is detected, then again the FW has to launch a subroutine that will stop the playback and display a warning.

How cinavia works as presented above has some speculative parts, as I don't know for sure which patents are enforced and which are not. But people that have decoded the FW of a certain BD-player probably know more.

So ALL players may be upgraded to cinavia, provided the GPU is upgradable (and it generally is, positive alerts are known for Sigma Designs SMP**** chips).

[diogen]

It looks like there is a long way to go before Cinavia has any chance to disrupt the established way of doing things...

1. According to the Wiki, it requires a hardware component capable of handling the watermark.
Very few existing players have it. Only ones sold after 1/1/2012 must have it.
Hence, studios will be hesitant to activate it in their releases if they don't want to pi$$ off their customers.
A little bit like BD+ ...

2. AACS keys are upgraded regularly.
If the watermarking detection can be done in software instead of hardware, this capability can be slipped in with a scheduled AACS key update.
But all the media players (PCH, Patriot, WD-TV, etc.) and PCs that are used to play back ripped and DRM-stripped BD/DVD are not under any threat. Not now, not in the future.

3. The only real threat is making TVs/projectors - i.e. all presentation devices - act on the presence of the watermark.
And that won't happen quickly...

Diogen.

[SamuriHL]

I completely agree with everything except number 3. How would that work? Only the player knows if it's a trusted source (AACS is present) or not. Once it leaves the player, any "down stream" device has no idea if it was a trusted source or not. So, I don't know how this could get embedded into other devices. What I mean is *I* don't understand how that could work.

[diogen]

When the time comes and
a)nothing but HDMI (or its descendant) is allowed to carry a BD stream: we are getting there;
b)every "authorized" TV and receiver have ARC (Audio Return Channel): all $300+ TVs and $150+ AVR have them today;
c)DTS is not an exception
you won't be able to avoid the audio track hitting the TV.

Hence, the TV will have a say in what gets played.

Considering Google plans to have its software embedded in 50% of new TVs in 6 months, it's not just a tale...

Diogen.

[SamuriHL]

But that doesn't help clear up my confusion as to how that would work. It matters not where the audio GOES after it leaves the player. The problem is, the AACS encryption has been removed at that point. Only the player then knows if the source was encrypted or not. (That's the current definition of a Cinavia "trusted source"....is there AACS encryption?) So how would a TV know if it was trusted or not? That's the part I don't understand when people talk about receivers and TV's, etc "getting Cinavia embedded in them." And they claim I'm the one saying Cinavia is falling. LOL! :D The way I understand Cinavia is that it's very basic. Signal is embedded in audio. Player decodes audio and detects signal. Player determines if the source is a "trusted source" by whether it contains AACS encryption or not. Player reacts to the trusted source flag of yes/no by playing/muting and displaying an error. That's really it. Just not sure how that applies outside the player. Or even how it could in the future unless we're not talking about Cinavia and instead some other protection.

[diogen]

The player spits out (bitsteams) not yet decoded but DRM stripped audio+video stream.
The video is in the clear, the audio has the watermark.

The receiver splits the stream, sends the video to the TV and decodes the audio.
Each of those - AVR and TV - have "veto" rights for playback.

If the audio stream has the watermark, the playback will be authorized only if the original was AACS-ed.
How the AACS flag was passed with the bitstream to the AVR/TV duo is technicality.

Again, I believe this won't happen soon, if at all.
By the time everything is lined up for this to be implemented optical media will most likely be dead...

Diogen.