"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[whurlston]

Tell me a good reason. [...] So why we should publish the 2 generation?
I can give you two.



In order to comply with the GPL license: CinExHDLW.dll, which is required for your program to work, is really nothing more that a compiled ffmpeg (as anyone with a hex editor can see).

As you said yourself:
I do not want to steal information, I prefer to discuss and share information.

[asarian]

In order to comply with the GPL license: CinExHDLW.dll, which is required for your program to work, is really nothing more that a compiled ffmpeg (as anyone with a hex editor can see).

LOL, busted! :D

[asarian]

You get a Bluray copy, an Ultraviolet copy, a digital copy, a DVD copy..... how would a system such as Ultaviolet work with Cinavia protected content if all devices could detect Cinavia? I guess you'd need a different watermark for different formats and devices would need to recognise a particular format and allow it to be played,

Pardon my ignorance, but digital copies of Blu-Rays?! Surely those aren't sold legally, right? (Or did I miss something major?)

Naturally, people in general consider 'media shifting' fair play, and so do I: I reserve the right to put my Blu-Rays on a hard disk at my media center; but I don't think the official makers of Cinavia had a 'hard disk' in mind as valid Blu-Ray medium. So, Cinavia checks would always fail on those.

As for players, while I'm at it, ask yourselves, what consitutes a player, really? In our PC, ppl generally see it as that black box we built in. But a PS3, for instance, is, as a whole, also considered a Blu-Ray player. And that's more like a PC, with a player device, a motherboard, and OS, etc.

So, I think it's more people's great resistance against Cinavia that has kept motherboard manufacturers from jumping on the Cinavia bandwagon, rather than a techical reason. And with 4K around the corner, they may simply not want to bother any more. Although Cinavia, even for 4K, would still be a heck of a strong mechanism to use.

[nevcairiel]

Pardon my ignorance, but digital copies of Blu-Rays?! Surely those aren't sold legally, right? (Or did I miss something major?)

Its a digital copy of the movie, not of the Blu-ray, which means its lower quality and it has DRM on it most of the time.

[asarian]

Its a digital copy of the movie, not of the Blu-ray, which means its lower quality and it has DRM on it most of the time.

Ah, I see. :) Guess I misread that one.

[SamuriHL]

I don't doubt that the industry can add additional drm layers to the different devices out there. Motherboards, receivers, tv's, etc. What I doubt from a technical stand point is the ability to enforce the current Cinavia drm on anything except the player. This is based on how the protection actually works rather than some fear mongering OMGZ ponies they're out to get me mentality. Once the stream leaves the player, the aacs encryption has been removed. Since Cinavia works by validating the aacs encryption, this can only happen at the player. Other drm schemes could be created but for the existing bluray format? Unlikely. For 4k? Almost assuredly.

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[Ichinisan]

Can we ADD the theatrical watermark to our own content? If so, I'd want to put a Cinavia watermark into EVERYTHING that goes online.

Encourage vloggers to do it. Videos on social media. Music streaming services.

The point? Create false Cinavia detections so often that consumer complaints will force the hardware manufacturers to abandon it.

Is that practical?

It would be awesome once the Cinavia watermark starts getting accidentally broadcast on TV news clips and such. Mass complaints from consumers. Manufacturers would be forced to abandon Cinavia (hopefully).

[jmac698]

There's a hack for various bluray hardware players to bypass cinavia btw, also you could compile xmbc for them or whatever you want (except the cpu is kinda slow). They run armv6 cpus.

http://www.malcolmstagg.com/bdp-s390.html

You can also easily extract the cinavia binary from the firmware and disassemble it, to see how it really works. Strange no one has done that yet.

[P.J]

Anyway to get rid of Cinavia in PowerDVD 15?

[Emulgator]

AnyDVD 7.6.0.0 2015 04 30
.....
- New: PowerDVD 15.0.1510.58 is now supported by AnyDVD's unique Cinavia fix
.....

[P.J]

Ah, i was using 7.5.7.0
I'll try it, thanks!

[diogen]

Just want to mention that Windows 10 makes no attempts to comply with Cinavia "terrorism".

Not only that, it can also handle MKVs out of the box without any splitters...

It looks like 4K video is the next bastion Hollywood will try to defend.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/204319-windows-10s-playready-3-0-mandates-hardware-drm-for-4k-playback

[Ch3vr0n]

playready has NOTHING to do with cinavia. Playready is a DRM to protect video casted to mobile devices. TV companies often have apps that allows you to watch TV on a mobile device. Playready is used to detect if the device is rooted and if it is decline streaming to the device to protect the copyright.

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[diogen]

playready has NOTHING to do with cinavia. Correct. Did I say it has?

I'll try in more details:

The environment (i.e. OS, in this case - Windows) has to be accommodating
for anything like Cinavia to be enforced (on the player level).

Despite rumors for at least a decade, Windows never became so accommodating.
HTPCs started as mostly Windows (still are?) and never had problem playing ripped content
Windows 10 is no exception...

That makes anything up to Blu-ray a lost cause to defend (for Hollywood).

4K video might be another game altogether...

[Ch3vr0n]

The environment (i.e. OS, in this case - Windows) has to be accommodating
for anything like Cinavia to be enforced (on the player level).

No it doesn't,

the PLAYER has to be accomdating. It doesn't matter WHAT OS you use, the only thing that matters is if the player is LICENSED for blu-ray playback after feb 1st 2012. If it is = mandatory detection, if it isn't = no detection required.

[diogen]

Who cares about license?

VLC (for better or worse) is playing anything on Windows since introduction.
Is it licensed? No. Never was never will. Can it play rips? Yes.

The OS - aka Windows - could prevent it from playing but never did...

Can you be more articulate about what point you are trying to make?

[Ch3vr0n]

You don't get it, the licensed player part comes into play if they want to add full menu support. Does vlc play rips, sure. Can it maintain the original menu? Can it may java menus? No. THAT is what the licensed part is about.

The OS CAN'T and never will, is Windows a blu-ray player? It's an environment in which you INSTALL a player into. It's THAT player that has to or doesn't have to detect cinavia. It's nothing window should even care about.

That's not even counting the added cost it would bring, it's $$$ to even be allowed to use it and cost an additional $$$ per copy it's used into.

You're the one that brought playready into a topic that's got nothing to do with cinavia or even decryption in general, not me.

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[Keiyakusha]

Ch3vr0n
You are right, windows is not necessarily relevant here. But the whole thing has something to do with Cinavia. These news aren't only about windows. Manufacturers are going to add DRM support to PCs on a hardware level. One day we may see Cinavia implementation integrated in our PCs and what software player we use to playback stuff might become irrelevant since it could be checked for watermark after it is already processed by player and before it'll be sent to speakers. If for example it will detect the watermark but will not detect a matching bluray disc in the drive it may refuse to give anything but silence. This is just a speculation though.

[Ch3vr0n]

cinavia implementation in our PC's? I seriously doubt that. No hardware manufacturer in their right mind is willingly going to add the needed hardware in the motherboad/optical drives. 1) they don't have to because neither a motherboard or optical drive can detect it on its own and 2) The cost comes into play to even be allowed to use it and again per item it's used on 3) ppl will just go to manufacturers that don't have it. I doubt companies like Asus would want their profits get eaten by implementing it and lose even more due to lack of sales.

without Windows the hardware items are just big pieces of paperweight, the only way windows would be required to add cinavia support is if they add a player that's fully compliant with the standard and has full menu support. Considering the fact that even WMP can barely play a simple DVD and that they release N versions (due to the anti-trust case by the EU) i doubt they'd ever do it (right). They can't get WMP to play a simple DVD right, let alone adding a complicated component such as a fully compliant BD player and 1) risk a new anti-trust case by the EU, and have the added cost of paying verance to use it and again per copy of windows sold.

That'll happen when hell freezes over.

[SamuriHL]

It's a misconception to think only a licensed player could handle menus... Even java ones. Just because it hasn't yet been done does not preclude the possibility. It'd take emulating the jvm implementation of the bluray spec. We know that's possible already as we know of a company that's already doing it. ;) Never count out the tenacity of the open source community. The licensing is really about the protections in place and getting access to the implementation of those components. Audio and video codes, jvm, aacs, bd+, Cinavia... That's what the license is really for. You get a player key when you implement all of that and keep it secure. The underlying tech like menus could be reverse engineered in a library for non licensed players to use. Basic menus have already been done. Give them time.

Also, don't limit yourself with the whole Cinavia thing. Saying they can't /won't implement it in the os. Irrelevant. They can and probably will invent new protection mechanisms going forward to protect 4k. I can guarantee they won't be limited to a watermark in the audio stream.

[Keiyakusha]

Ch3vr0n your point is probably right, but my point wasn't strictly about cinavia. Major manufacturers are already adding hardware routines to facilitate DRM in win10. Granted there is no word about cinavia, but I don't see why they will not be willing to add it too, or at least something equivalently nasty. Intel, AMD, Nvidia, and Qualcomm, good luck finding manufacturers that won't have it. This is mainly concerning video playback, not audio. But hdmi audio, for example, also need to go through GPU

[Ghitulescu]

While the player is indeed forced to comply with cinavia, so far only if it provides full men support, nothing prevent the hardware manufacturers to implement a detection routine in their chipset, routine that may or not be available to programming.

In fact all major chipset mfgs like SigmaDesign and MediaTek "advertised" once their products will incorporate cinavia, like they currently incorporate MacroVision.

Now, a lot of people are using the computer to watch movies. This cannot be argued against, as everytime I suggest a HW player dozens of replies come back with this "standard clause".

Considering that alternative players exist, like the aforementioned VLC, isn't this a problem to be solved by media distributors?
I mean it will be utterly stupid to allow the "unauthorised" playback when they have the means to prevent this. It can be incorporated into a chip or software-wise. Sofar and AFAIK M$ did not comply with the requirements of DVD and BD, because their player does not support ex fabrica the playback of such media. So the incorporation of the cinavia in the chipset solves all the issues, even if the OS issuer chooses not to comply.
Since the computers today are almost 1million times better than 20 years ago, yet they need more or less the same time to do the same job :), the tendency will forcely be to use HW acceleration ... circle closed.

One last detail - it must not happen today, but it will eventually. One has only to track the evolution (DRM-wise) of satellite broadcasting and draw the conclusions.

[diogen]

You don't get it...Geeez...
Reading comprehension problems?

Who talks about playing (or not) legitimate discs?
I talk about rips. Backups, you know? A DRM-less copy of the disc?
And that is what this site is all about...

Multiple attempts were made to prevent this from happening (playing rips).
The first wave was trying to prevent ripping itself: CSS, AACS, BD+, etc....
All were defeated...

And those that were not defeated, died in obscurity: SACD, DVDA...

Now the attempt is made to prevent playback itself: Cinavia.

Cinavia can succeed only when every member of the playback chain is playing by the rules (imposed by copyright holders).

This can be done - if so desired - on standalone BD players, game consoles, etc. Because the OS controls what is and is not allowed to be played.

Windows - at least in theory - could have achieved the same. But never did. Including Win10.
There were talks about protected audio/media path for years. But Microsoft never locked up the OS...

The ultimate goal - and we might get there in 10 years or so - is to completely eliminate hard copies and do only streaming.
Example: Ultraviolet.

This way the protection can be updated daily (if needed) and copyright holders have complete control of the whole playback chain...

[Chetwood]

Unless of course people manage to hack into the chain or simply record and recode from the screen. With such a high quality source, the copies should look decent enough.

[diogen]

...or simply record and recode from the screen.This would be doable...
I think Ben Waggoner - a mod on this forum - mentioned once that he'd be interested in trying this (while talking about restoration of old movies).
Setting up a high quality playback system and record it at 1080/60p...

The only downside, that setup would cost an arm and a leg and would not be a topic of discussion on doom9...:)

[spock2000]

Hello everybody

I have a ps3 and a ps4 u.s.a. versions. I noticed a couple months ago I can stream to both consoles using the application Plex media server with the plex pass. Plex pass subscription costs 5.00 a month. No cinavia on both consoles :) . Also noticed the newest firmware for the ps4 has enabled playing video files via usb flash drive. I'm so happy!!! No cinavia present yet on that also for now :) The movie I tried was Ghost rider vengenance on Bluray disc. Cinavia showed up. Then Ghost rider vengenance via usb flashdrive compressed using handbrake. No cinavia on the ps4.:):):) Of course I always have my sony bdp-s360 or xbox 360 just in case Sony decides to include it in later firmware updates

[Chetwood]

The only downside, that setup would cost an arm and a leg and would not be a topic of discussion on doom9...:)
Sure, but aren't the scene groups already doing this to get their Netflix releases out?

[asarian]

Hmm, I was looking at a new system (either S1151 or S2011-v3), and, to my shock, I saw this on both systems (Realtek® ALC1150):

BD Audio Layer Content Protection

What is this?! So. no more streaming?!?

[Andy o]

Hmm, I was looking at a new system (either S1151 or S2011-v3), and, to my shock, I saw this on both systems (Realtek® ALC1150):

BD Audio Layer Content Protection

What is this?! So. no more streaming?!?

That's likely so blu-ray players such as TMT and PowerDVD can tap into it so they do not downsample audio, it's an old known issue/non-issue (depending on if you use those programs or not, or if you care about the downsampling).

[Andy o]

And those that were not defeated, died in obscurity: SACD, DVDA...
I'm not sure not being rippable was the cause of the demise of these (though maybe part of it). DVD-A could be fully ripped at the end, for whatever that's worth. I think it may have been the prices and the inconvenience of it all. CD's have been in decline for a long time too, btw.

Cinavia can succeed only when every member of the playback chain is playing by the rules (imposed by copyright holders).

This can be done - if so desired - on standalone BD players, game consoles, etc. Because the OS controls what is and is not allowed to be played.

Windows - at least in theory - could have achieved the same. But never did. Including Win10.
There were talks about protected audio/media path for years. But Microsoft never locked up the OS...


It's way harder to achieve in Windows, and arguably it probably never will be, cause they might just have to disallow third party players. As far as I understand, for those other devices you mentioned, there are no third party players available. It is still the player's job to detect Cinavia, not the OS's.

[asarian]

That's likely so blu-ray players such as TMT and PowerDVD can tap into it so they do not downsample audio, it's an old known issue/non-issue (depending on if you use those programs or not, or if you care about the downsampling).

Yeah, my bad. I read up on it, and this 'BD Audio Layer Content Protection' is most certainly not Cinavia.

We'd be totally hosed, of course, if it were.