"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[Kerry56]

This is a new twist (at least for me)....a disk purchased at retail with Cinavia that will not play on a PS3: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1145060

[SamuriHL]

That seems like a nasty little bug. What title is that if you don't mind me asking?

[Kerry56]

The original poster in that thread hasn't mentioned the name of the movie yet. I asked in that thread....we'll see if he responds.

[setarip_old]

I'd speculate that despite that poster's statement, the purchased Blu-ray disc is NOT a legitimate, commercial disc...

[SamuriHL]

Yea, that seems rather likely doesn't it? I've never seen a case where the PS3 misidentified an original, commercial disc as untrusted. If that happens, that'd be one serious bug in the Cinavia detection code. But, yea, you're speculation very well may be correct.

[derbeDeus]

It's most likely not a legit. In the description it says that the playback stopped: probably a message 1.

[setarip_old]

In line with my (our) initial speculation, the OP at the arstechnica forum is now "backtracking", saying that the store may have been duped into purchasing (and reselling) other-than-legitimate product ;>}

[SamuriHL]

ROFLMAO! Yea, that must have been what happened. LOL! :) Good to know that the PS3 doesn't have a super flaw that flags original discs as untrusted. :)

[whurlston]

In line with my (our) initial speculation, the OP at the arstechnica forum is now "backtracking", saying that the store may have been duped into purchasing (and reselling) other-than-legitimate product ;>}

Just to clarify, the OP (erratic) did not backtrack. The statement that the store may have been duped was made by another forum member (nofundsleft) who was also speculating.

[setarip_old]

@whurlston

Hi!

Actually, both you and I are in error. The post I referred to was made by "tenton".

In any case, unless of course that it's proven, I see no purpose/benefit/need in pursuing this any further in this thread...

[whurlston]

@whurlston

Hi!

Actually, both you and I are in error. The post I referred to was made by "tenton".Ah, you are correct. My mistake.

In any case, unless of course that it's proven, I see no purpose/benefit/need in pursuing this any further in this thread... Agreed, although I strongly suspect that tenton (and everyone here) is correct.

I would be curious to know the name of the movie. It's an interesting thread to watch for sure.

[Kerry56]

I sent a pm to erratic over at ArsTechnica asking for the name of the movie he was having trouble with. He sent word back that the movie was Coraline. The movie was shrink wrapped and appeared totally legitimate. He sent it back to the publisher and has been given a dvd version, and a full refund.

He lives in Australia and bought the movie at what is apparently a large chain of electronic stores called JB HiFi.

[SamuriHL]

Can't be the US release of Coraline as it came out before Cinavia if I remember right. I still find this to be suspect, but, that's just speculation, of course. Seems a bit strange.

[setarip_old]

@SamuriHL Can't be the US release of Coraline as it came out before Cinavia if I remember right.Actually, the initial US release of "Coraline" was in August of 2009 - and included both a 2D version and an oldstyle anaglyph (red and green glasses for viewing) 3D version.

A couple/few months ago, "Coraline" was re-released in the newer stereoscopic 3D format...

[SamuriHL]

And does this new re-release have confirmed Cinavia on it?

[setarip_old]

I don't own it, so I can't state with absolute certainty. However, it's not included in the listings maintained at DVDFab Forum, nor could I find any "Coraline"/"Cinavia" - related postings anywhere else. Only references were to April 2011 UK release.

If your curiosity is really piqued (Mine is not, because I'm sure that such a flawed LEGITIMATE commercial release would be VERY newsworthy), I guess you might try finding out if it's in any retail stores in your neck of the woods...

[Accident]

Even though all this chatter about re-encoding audio to some other format is all interesting and all, has anyone started looking at detecting the audio-mark with dsp or similar, or RE on the early decrypted firmware capable of detecting the signal?

Is there a thread with better noise/signal ratio?

[dvgeek]

Just popped a backup DVD (from a DVD not a BluRay) of "Just Do It" into my PS3 and I can't believe it that Cinavia kicked in.

[setarip_old]

@dvgeek

Hi!

Does the original, commercial DVD and/or its packaging display the "Cinavia" logo?

[derbeDeus]

Just popped a backup DVD (from a DVD not a BluRay) of "Just Do It" into my PS3 and I can't believe it that Cinavia kicked in.

Just do it? what movie is that

[setarip_old]

"Just Do It" is a Korean comedy released on DVD in 2003. Highly unlikely this contained "Cinavia" ;>}


I'm guessing the poster actually meant "Just Go With It", released a week or two ago on DVD and Blu-ray - although I've seen no other mention that this title, in either format, contains "Cinavia" (Except for an exact duplicate of this post at the SlySoft Forum)...

[derbeDeus]

"Just Do It" is a Korean comedy released on DVD in 2003. Highly unlikely this contained "Cinavia" ;>}


I'm guessing the poster actually meant "Just Go With It", released a week or two ago on DVD and Blu-ray - although I've seen no other mention that this title, in either format, contains "Cinavia" (Except for an exact duplicate of this post at the SlySoft Forum)...

Yeah, Just Go With It would make sense. But in that case, the original DVD must have an AACS folder.

[setarip_old]

@dvgeek

What specific "Cinavia" warning popped up?

[rotty]

When buying or looking at disks on Amazon and alike, you can make customer reviews/comments on any disk.

If we see a disk that we know is Cinavia watermarked then how about we make a review/comment something like this for example:

Great film, but I for one will NOT be buying simply because the audio on this disk has been polluted by Cinavia watermarking.

I think Joe Public has a right to know.

[derbeDeus]

Good idea, but...
look at the mess there is on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia. What makes you think they'll be very accurate in the reviews? Please remember that there are discs with Cinavia logo on the box that don't have it and the other way around and there is no easy way to test for "Cinavia for BD" available yet.

[laserfan]

look at the mess there is on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia.Couple interesting things in there:

On June 5, 2009, the licensing agreements for AACS were finalized, which were updated to make Cinavia detection on commercial Blu-ray disc players a requirement.
I think we all knew this, but I wonder if anyone knows of any set-top players that have been "upgraded" via a firmware change to detect Cinavia? So far just PS3 I think? To-date everything I've read says any player designs pre-2009 can NOT be made to detect Cinavia with a simple firmware update.

Also: who here knows what the "Telesync or Cam" Cinavia movie category is referring to?

[Ghitulescu]

Are you implying here that the new cinavia-SDK for eg chipsets (Sigma Designs) cannot be introduced in the firmware?

Wikipedia is not an authoritative source. It's as reliable as the editor is. This info is an insider info, but I really think we're seen just rumours. At most separate examples united to a general concept, which may not be necessarily true.

[Accident]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telesync

[laserfan]

Are you implying here that the new cinavia-SDK for eg chipsets (Sigma Designs) cannot be introduced in the firmware?
I've seen zero evidence that Cinavia can be newly introduced to pre-2009 settop players via firmware, PS3 excepted as I already said.

[Ghitulescu]

I own a pre-2009 gear and the last FW took away its ability to play AVCHD discs (as reported - I "missed" some 8 or 9 FW upgrades since I've bought it :) and it still works even with the newest titles) but no reports concerning cinavia. This is why I always suggest to resist as hard as possible and do not upgrade/update the FW....
I think the last time when I saw an improvement in upgrading was 2002-2003, since then every single FW actually downgraded the performances/abilities ...
It's still premature I think, there are extremely few titles containing cinavia.

[hello_hello]

I just bought a Blu-ray player for a relative. The criteria was not too expensive, able to play MKV, MP4 and AVI encodes correctly, and no Cinavia. None of the models I looked at supported Cinavia. I settled on a fairly new model Sony player. Still no Cinavia.

Is Cinavia really much of an issue when it comes to standalone devices? I know it's supposed to be implemented in all players but it seems you've really got to go out of your way to find one.
The player I bought works perfectly, so I can't imagine updating it's firmware, ever.

I own a pre-2009 gear and the last FW took away its ability to play AVCHD discs

That's almost funny. I'm glad I use a PC for playback. How do you play your "industry standard" AVCHD discs now?

[setarip_old]

@hello_hello Is Cinavia really much of an issue when it comes to standalone devices? Presently, NO. Near term and longer term, potentially YES...

[Ghitulescu]

I just bought a Blu-ray player for a relative. The criteria was not too expensive, able to play MKV, MP4 and AVI encodes correctly, and no Cinavia. None of the models I looked at supported Cinavia. I settled on a fairly new model Sony player. Still no Cinavia.
fair new is vague. 370 and up will have cinavia.

That's almost funny. I'm glad I use a PC for playback. How do you play your "industry standard" AVCHD discs now?
The ironic irony is that you don't see that it's because of the PC that the standalones will suffer, too, as collateral damage. Almost every CP mechanism that was designed was involved in preventing a PC doing a 1:1 digital (lossless) copy or concerned the recorders but not the players.

And please read about intel insider if you're concerned about the PC as a playback device, but not from intel HP, or replace there unlock by lock ;).

[Lighto]

@muzzz33

From what I've read, in order to test the "Showtime" player's ability to circumvent "Cinavia"/Verance protection you MUST be using a "jailbroken" PS3 (with, IIRC, modified, "Custom FirmWare" version 3.55). If you're willing/able to modify your PS3 accordingly, then for purposes of testing (NOT for permanent retention), you could rent any of the following Blu-ray discs that are confirmed to contain "Cinavia"/Verance watermarking (List is courtesy of the DVDFab Forum):

Blu-ray discs:
The Losers *(Warner Brothers, volume name=THE_LOSERS) (English track only)
The Karate Kid (2010)* (Sony, volume name=THE_KARATE_KID) (most of the tracks)
The Other Guys (Sony, 14dec2010) (English track only)
Resident Evil: Afterlife 2D* (Sony, 28dec2010) (English track only)
Resident Evil: Afterlife 3D* (Sony, 28dec2010) (English track only)
Salt (Sony, 21dec2010) (English track only)
The Social Network (Sony, 11jan2011) (English track only)
Takers (Sony, 18jan2011) (English track only)
Burlesque (Sony, 01mar2011) [NOT CONFIRMED]
The Tourist* (Sony, 22mar2011) (English track only)
How Do You Know (Sony, 22mar2011) [NOT CONFIRMED]
The Green Hornet (Sony, 03may2011) (just announced)
The Green Hornet 3D (Sony, 03may2011) (just announced)
The Roommate (Sony, 17may2011) (just announced)
* for those, in teritories where the movie is not released by Warner Bros. or Sony, the Blu-ray does not have Cinavia

If you choose to modify your PS3 in accordance to the information posted at the website(s)/forums for which you and others have provided links and then proceed with testing any of the above-listed Blu-ray discs known to contain "Cinavia"/Verance watermarking, please post your findings back here ;>}

Hello setarip_old, would it be possible for you to provide a short sample video that has cinavia protection please?

I am in need of a sample video that will cause a ps3 to popup with the cinavia protection message for my school assignment to showcase the cinavia audio watermark protection. :)

[hello_hello]

fair new is vague. 370 and up will have cinavia.

I have a friend who owns a 370. I bought the 380.
They don't.

The ironic irony is that you don't see that it's because of the PC that the standalones will suffer, too, as collateral damage.

I see it, but regardless of which excuses you use to try to justify it, an industry standard device which won't play industry standard discs after an industry standard firmware update.... it is a little funny.

And please read about intel insider if you're concerned about the PC as a playback device, but not from intel HP, or replace there unlock by lock ;).

I'm not concerned. When I update my current PCs I'll have the parts and current software for creating two dedicated playback PCs. They should serve me well for a long time.

[Ghitulescu]

AVCHD is not an industry standard. It's a subset of Blu-ray, designed for HD camcorders owners. It doesn't comprise any -ROM specs, only writable/rewritable media (DVDR, BDR, SD). There will never be a mdovie released as AVCHD (no subtitles, no HD audio, not even the second audio for the second official language of some states within US). Since I haven't upgraded I have no idea what restrictions were imposed.
PS3 was the test for cinavia. And since it's mandatory, they'll upgrade every upgradable player. Like your players...
Now, again it's funny. Any cinavia enabled standalone will play any cinavia enabled disc (never heard any complaints). Only the copies will not be played. What kind of copies? Well, since one cannot use standalones to make such copies, they can only be made using a PC. So, the next generation of CPUs will implement copyprotections deep within. Start piling old components, you'll need them ;)
Or even cheaper, start writing your congressman to outlaw these things.

[rotty]

And since it's mandatory, they'll upgrade every upgradable player.

This is the most important point of all. People asking what players are Cinavia enabled and wanting lists of those player models are are just completely missing the point. ALL PLAYERS (that are able to be) WILL, IN TIME BE CINAVIA ENABLED.

Heads need to be got out of the sand. People saying this only affects a few titles are also adding to the complacency. This time next year most titles will be. When enough Disks are out there and already bought and in our collections, the big switch on will happen.

And if anyone thinks that this can be avoided by not upgrading their player then think again, new titles after that point will not play unless the player is upgraded.

Stop this at source. This control of the paying law abiding public must end.

[hello_hello]

PS3 was the test for cinavia. And since it's mandatory, they'll upgrade every upgradable player. Like your players...

Which players? The players you previously told me already have Cinavia. Are you offering fact or just speculating?

Now, again it's funny. Any cinavia enabled standalone will play any cinavia enabled disc (never heard any complaints). Only the copies will not be played. What kind of copies? Well, since one cannot use standalones to make such copies, they can only be made using a PC.

The player I just bought will no doubt spend far more time playing encodes than actual BluRay discs. I won't update it's firmware. If and when I find a disc it won't play, I'll encode it.

So, the next generation of CPUs will implement copyprotections deep within. Start piling old components, you'll need them ;)

Do you have a crystal ball??
What's funny, is copy protections might give those old components a long, useful life. My current dual and quad core PCs will be getting upgraded shortly. The old MB/CPUs will eventually become dedicated media players. In a couple of years I'll upgrade them again. That's four dedicated media players without any copy protection woes. Should last me a fair while.

[hello_hello]

This is the most important point of all. People asking what players are Cinavia enabled and wanting lists of those player models are are just completely missing the point. ALL PLAYERS (that are able to be) WILL, IN TIME BE CINAVIA ENABLED.

What makes me somewhat sceptical is that Cinavia detection on commercial Blu-ray disc players was made a requirement two years ago. Two years later and you've got to go out of your way to find a player which includes Cinavia, even in current model Sony players. Why?

I wonder if it'll be like DVD region codes where initially every player seemed to adhere to them, then "unlock codes" for most players began appearing until in the end I'm not sure there's many players which even enforce region codes any more.

[setarip_old]

Although the doomsayers MAY eventually be proven correct, I remain optimistic. More than 1/2 the world's installed base of Blu-ray play capable hardware is comprised of PS3s. As is well-known, "Geo Hot" and others have "jailbroken" and reverse engineered various aspects of the PS3. The "Showtime player" provides Blu-ray playback capability on "jailbroken" (either directly or via dongle) PS3s.
(This may very well be a contributing factor to the thusfar minimal application of "Cinavia"/Verance protection)

I wouldn't be surprised to eventually find out that others continue to work "behind the scenes" to develop products and/or methods to either circumvent or eliminate "Cinavia"/Verance protection.

[rotty]

Although the doomsayers MAY eventually be proven correct, I remain optimistic. More than 1/2 the world's installed base of Blu-ray play capable hardware is comprised of PS3s. As is well-known, "Geo Hot" and others have "jailbroken" and reverse engineered various aspects of the PS3. The "Showtime player" provides Blu-ray playback capability on "jailbroken" (either directly or via dongle) PS3s.
(This may very well be a contributing factor to the thusfar minimal application of "Cinavia"/Verance protection)

I wouldn't be surprised to eventually find out that others continue to work "behind the scenes" to develop products and/or methods to either circuvent or eliminate "Cinavia"/Verance protection.

Well Setarip I hope your right. I'm sure you would agree, there are times when it's good to be proved right but equally good in many cases to be proved wrong, this is such a case.

But, just because I dont agree with you that dosent make me a doomsayer. It makes them someone with an opinion as valid and as much of a contribution as yours.

There certainly isnt any point in arguing re this topic as time will answer it once and for all.

I think that it will be possible to break Cinavia, its just that its not that practical in the domestic enviroment, i.e. re encoding HD lossless audio and the removal butchery may be worse than the watermark itself.

The best answer is the one you hope for and thats up to us all.

A lot of money has been put into this and all later players will be activated you can bet your life. They know its unpopular and so will wait, but as you know it is now basically mandatory within the spec.

However, financial matters overrule everything so ....................
It wont come to pass if we dont let it.

[hello_hello]

A lot of money has been put into this and all later players will be activated you can bet your life. They know its unpopular and so will wait, but as you know it is now basically mandatory within the spec.

It's been mandatory for a couple of years. How can something be mandatory while at the same time all the manufacturers can sit on their hands for a few years before implementing it? Is it a conspiracy? Aren't their laws regarding that sort of thing?

[Midzuki]

So, the next generation of CPUs will implement copyprotections deep within.

No problemos, man. Even a Blu-Ray player can be emulated in software, and a minimalistic and dedicated operating shisutemu will be written and compiled, if necessary. :devil: :cool: :) :p :D

[Ghitulescu]

While I agree that there's no uncrackable protection, I have to say that the new protections are way above the level of Joe Doe, especially for those that ripping a DVD/BD/CD means the download of the latest *** software and click RUN/START (software that actually does the dirty job for them).

As I like to repeat myself, this have to be regulated at the legislations' level (the copyright eventually expire, the copyprotection must never be circumvented). It's like the state grants you free entrace to a museum, but you are not allowed to touch the handle of the door to get in. Wake up people!

This is the wrong way of acting. It solves some problems, but does not hit the nail in the head, as the studios managed to do it.

[hello_hello]

While I agree that there's no uncrackable protection, I have to say that the new protections are way above the level of Joe Doe, especially for those that ripping a DVD/BD/CD means the download of the latest *** software and click RUN/START (software that actually does the dirty job for them).

How are these newer copy protections different from older copy protections in that respect? Can the average Joe Doe rip a copy protected DVD without the aid of third party software doing the dirty work for them? Can the average Joe Doe even copy a protected VHS tape by removing the macrovision themselves, or do they still require third party hardware/software to remove it for them?

As I like to repeat myself, this have to be regulated at the legislations' level (the copyright eventually expire, the copyprotection must never be circumvented). It's like the state grants you free entrace to a museum, but you are not allowed to touch the handle of the door to get in. Wake up people!

What makes you think everyone else is asleep? It seems fairly obvious the laws (in the US at least) which allow you to make a backup copy of copyrighted material you own are in contradiction with the laws which forbid the reverse engineering of copy protection.

I guess you must have been too busy repeating yourself to answer my questions. Do you know my players will eventually have Cinavia enabled via a firmware update or are you just offering speculation as fact?
How do you know the next generation of CPUs will have copy protection built in?

[xkodi]

BTW, "Cinavia" protection is removed on PS3 with latest REBUG firmware, here is what the changelog of the release says:

FEATURE – Cinavia protection disabled

but you can visit REBUG webpage for more details about the project and their latest release.

[Ghitulescu]

It's only half (or very little ) speculation concerning both aspects: that your and your friends' players will eventually end "upgraded" to cinavia, unless you/your friend chose not to upgrade. However, according to the cinavia agreement the manufacturer is not allowed to tell the public (in the firmware log) when cinavia will be implemented but to use standard clauses like "Various playback improvements" and, as usual, there's no way back (flashing a lower AKA uncinavied version of the FW). People might be tricked to upgrade, but what harm is that, everyone uses only originals/legal obtained media, don't they?
The intel insider is no speculation at all, the next CPUs will have DRM protections inside (which, well, this is speculating, HD video is a fact, HD audio is rumoured). In combination with a new window OS (vista-like, which vista served, like ME, to test the customers acceptance) that will mean ... you're smart enough to figure it out yourself.

[derbeDeus]

It's been mandatory for a couple of years. How can something be mandatory while at the same time all the manufacturers can sit on their hands for a few years before implementing it? Is it a conspiracy? Aren't their laws regarding that sort of thing?

Why are you so sure that they didn't implement it yet?

Let's talk a bit about strategy here:
First PS3 firmware to implement Cinavia detector was released in November 2009. First BD to have Cinavia was made/released around June/July 2010. So if you had a PS3, not only that you were not notified when you upgraded to 3.10 that you'll install a Cinavia detector, but at that time you didn't even know what that is and how's gonna do any harm to your backup/streaming habits. Ppl tried back then to track it... was it 3.15, was it 3.10?

What makes you think that Sony implemented Cinavia detector only in one product and not in the others? Because they had different processors? Verance site already said that they had detectors for multiple procs. Was it a test? Why would you test on the most popular product, at first?

Ppl assume that one by one manufacturers will start complying to the license and will be implementing Cinavia detector that will refuse to play backup copies or bootleg cam discs. But that will affect sales, nobody will buy their player anymore. At least not until all manufacturers will have Cinavia in place.
It's a fact that they won't be able to implement it at the same time. So how do you solve the problem? Nobody wants to be first.

At the moment there are two "brave" pioneers: PS3 (the bd player that you buy for other reasons) and the Hi-end BD players (whose users are not interested to backup discs). LG was the odd one out, but they went back (in the hide;) ) quickly.

I think the strategy here is to not let the users know which player implemented Cinavia yet, so the sales are not biased. Let everyone (manufacturers) implement it. That takes time, lots of it. And when the time is right, when users have bought with high confidence (Sony players or other brands), the bomb ticks and in a short time, every player will have Cinavia detector enabled.
I don't know if it's a time-triggered "bomb" or the firmwares will "call home" to ask "ready to activate?" My bet is that they are in "deployment phase" still and that, aside from the public licenses that manufacturers have to implement Cinavia, they also had secret (for obvious reasons) agreements, not to activate it before being told to do so.

BTW, "Cinavia" protection is removed on PS3 with latest REBUG firmware, here is what the changelog of the release says:

FEATURE – Cinavia protection disabled

but you can visit REBUG webpage for more details about the project and their latest release.
Nice one. What did they do? disable the callbacks for M1 and M3? :)

[hello_hello]

Why are you so sure that they didn't implement it yet?

I tested it on a couple of players.

What makes you think that Sony implemented Cinavia detector only in one product and not in the others?

Because aside from the PS3 Sony don't seem to have implemented Cinavia. I'll admit I haven't checked every model Bluray player they make.

Because they had different processors? Verance site already said that they had detectors for multiple procs. Was it a test? Why would you test on the most popular product, at first?

Because all the other devices are Bluray players??

[derbeDeus]

I tested it on a couple of players.



Because aside from the PS3 Sony don't seem to have implemented Cinavia. I'll admit I haven't checked every model Bluray player they make.

How did you check? Did you look into the firmware?