"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection [Archive] - Page 10

SamuriHL

3rd January 2011, 00:51

If you can break open the firmware,...and compare FW versions that include it against the ones that do not(pre 2009),...then that code could explain more how this crud works.

AFIK

That's not what was said.

If I'm interpreting its potential correctly, if the hackers who came up with this are not overly greedy (as are, apparently, the creators of "PSJailbreak device"), I believe this could send the Cinavia folks back to the drawing board...

I want to know how *being able to sign code to run on the PS3* is going to send Cinavia back to the drawing board. They're completely different issues. Yes, you can install stuff on the PS3 now. That's kuel, yes, but, has nothing at all to do with the Cinavia detection code built into the software player that the PS3 uses. That player, btw, has been updated for more than just Cinavia, so, even if you could somehow rip out the player parts from an earlier firmware and install it on your later firmware to overwrite the current, Cinavia infested player, you may run into disc compatibility issues. In any case, I don't see how this spells the end of Cinavia on the PS3 just with that announcement. It's a very awesome development for the PS3 community, yes, but, not Cinavia related IMO unless I'm missing something.

setarip_old

3rd January 2011, 04:02

@SamuriHL

Hi!

1) If I understand their accomplishment, just as it would allow for the reintroduction of Linux to the PS3, it would also allow for the rollback of the PS3 firmware to prior to the inclusion of Cinavia-related code.

2) Curious, IIRC, you didn't voice similar concerns/questions when I earlier posted about the potential of the "PSJailbreak" device - only (as I stated) that it was extemely high-priced.

Perhaps some of the software engineers (Doom9 members and/or others that you know) will post regarding the possibilities.

SamuriHL

3rd January 2011, 04:21

1) Rolling back the firmware is fine, I suppose, but, it still causes the problem of not being able to use the PS3 for any online purposes. You will then be stuck with an outdated player that may have compatibility issues with discs going forward. This is no different than my idea of keeping a backup copy of the latest software players on the PC that don't contain Cinavia and using them when playing a Cinavia infected backup. So yea, that's definitely a possibility if you're willing to sacrifice online functionality of your PS3 and to use an old version of the PS3's player.

2) I didn't think of it until now, that's why. :)

In any case, if your plan is to roll back the firmware to pre-Cinavia, then absolutely, you're correct, that this will work. That wasn't how I was reading your statement when you said it rendered Cinavia useless, but, if you're willing to give up having the latest firmware, this is at least a viable option so long as there's no update needed to play the actual disc.

What would be really neat is if "they" could figure out how to hack the old player into new firmware, sign the firmware, and allow both a Cinavia free experience AND online capabilities. That would be much more interesting I think. :)

setarip_old

3rd January 2011, 04:34

One step at a time ;>}

BTW (I'm not "into" gaming) From what I've read, many games don't need to access the Internet for anything other than as a form of copy protection...

SamuriHL

3rd January 2011, 04:37

I don't want to get offtopic but I'll just say that I BELIEVE to do things like netflix streaming and hulu plus, etc, you need to have the latest firmware. To make it an "all purpose video device" I would think those options would be necessary for a lot of people. Myself included. :)

dansrfe

3rd January 2011, 05:47

Once the PS3 has already been hacked who cares about Cinavia? Just load a homebrew media player app or play the file on linux. I fail to see how Cinavia is still an issue if the firmware has already been exploited and hacked.

A.Fenderson

3rd January 2011, 09:10

I'm assuming that writing a full-featured FOSS blu-ray media player app is non-trivial, as evidenced by the fact that one doesn't even exist for x86.

Ghitulescu

3rd January 2011, 10:03

1) Rolling back the firmware is fine, I suppose, but, it still causes the problem of not being able to use the PS3 for any online purposes. You will then be stuck with an outdated player that may have compatibility issues with discs going forward. This is no different than my idea of keeping a backup copy of the latest software players on the PC that don't contain Cinavia and using them when playing a Cinavia infected backup. So yea, that's definitely a possibility if you're willing to sacrifice online functionality of your PS3 and to use an old version of the PS3's player.

I simply fail to see the mirage of "being online". Maybe I'm outdated myself too, but has the "online access" some killer advantages that one can accept cinavia or other nasty copy-protection?

Maybe it's also true what I said before, that PS3 is a game console with BD-playing facility. :rolleyes:

My experience with FW and various devices, of all kind, told me that once a nasty feature has been implemented, there's no possibility to "turn back time" - no downgrade possible. I'll be glad to be wrong.

xenex

3rd January 2011, 11:02

I have to agree with Ghitulescu's basic idea. There was once a time when manufacturers sent out firmware updates and they were a "good thing." Updates to MB BIOS added support for new hardware (USB,etc.), updates to optical drives added support for newer (faster, etc.) media, and so on.

Now (last few years) we have to FEAR the updates! They may not add anything at all, but just eliminate features. I think most here have read this (or similar):

http://gadgetsteria.com/2010/04/22/updated-ps3-eula-gives-sony-complete-control-to-issue-updates-even-without-end-user-knowledgeapproval/

I don't own anything SONY by choice, but it is a scary trend when manufacturers start to force updates which are really downgrades and take away support for features which used to work.

But so far, I really only see SONY doing this. I hope the trend does not start to include others.

<sarcasm>
NEWSALERT: 2012 Sony PS3 FW Update 4.8 - Features: New Message "All PS3 uses are now disabled. New PS4 available for $1000 at www.sonystyle.com"
</sarcasm>

SamuriHL

3rd January 2011, 15:13

I simply fail to see the mirage of "being online". Maybe I'm outdated myself too, but has the "online access" some killer advantages that one can accept cinavia or other nasty copy-protection?

Then why get a PS3 at all? I mean, it's a decent blu-ray player, but, there's far better stand alones if all you're looking for is blu-ray playback. Myself, I hardly ever use it for blu-ray. I have an HTPC for that. Nonetheless, many people DO use it as an all purpose machine as that's what it's marketed for. Those people would love to be rid of Cinavia on it, but, at the same time, not lose all the rest of the functionality in the box.

Maybe it's also true what I said before, that PS3 is a game console with BD-playing facility. :rolleyes:

It does more than those 2 things alone. I pointed out a few more things that I personally do with mine than just play games and watch Blu-rays. It's quite the versatile little toy, which is probably why Sony focused Cinavia on it first. It is, after all, one of the most widely available blu-ray players. Adding Cinavia to it was easy for Sony, and made sense. (We could argue just how many people do in fact use it as a blu-ray player, but, for the purposes of Cinavia discussion, 100% do. ;))

My experience with FW and various devices, of all kind, told me that once a nasty feature has been implemented, there's no possibility to "turn back time" - no downgrade possible. I'll be glad to be wrong.

Yea, I agree on this one. Being able to turn the clock back and at least have the option to go back to pre-Cinavia firmware is good for some people. I'm not sure how much else has changed between the time Cinavia was added and the latest firmware, but, if you're playing backups, assumably you've either done a movie only without all the BD-J stuff that typically causes the need for updated players, or maybe you're streaming. So, maybe my concern about using an old version of the player isn't completely valid. So long as you only ever use backups, you're unlikely to run into a compatibilty issue.

Now, ideally, as I said, *I* would like to see the old player hacked into the latest firmware, signed, and released. That would be TRULY useful IMO.

Ghitulescu

3rd January 2011, 20:42

But so far, I really only see SONY doing this. I hope the trend does not start to include others.
Let's fill in the Hall of shame with other names of the same caliber:
Plextor (CD and DVD-writers)
Humax (DVB STBs)

Of course there are others, including Panasonic and Sharp and JVC and Samsung and so on, but since I don't own such gear I can express myself in an authoritative manner.

There's however a good thing, everything that Sony created on its own ended sooner or later at the history garbage can: SuperCassette, MiniDisk, MicroMV, MemoryStick, soon PS3 ;)

Coming back to the OT, the Intellectual Property is actually the last thing the Western World possess, as all the manufacturing centers were relocated to China. So they enforce them to squeeze money so long they can (I mean until the Chinese will be able to copy the technology, too) ... but I don't care, for many sound reasons.

setarip_old

3rd January 2011, 23:01

@Ghitulescu

Coming back to the OT...Yet again, please DO come back to my original topic (See Post #1 of this thread) - Overcoming CINAVIA

@xenex

Actually, the first Cinavia-infected release was "The Losers", a Warner Bros. release. So far, all other such releases have been by SONY.

SamuriHL

3rd January 2011, 23:16

Actually, the first Cinavia-infected release was "The Losers", a Warner Bros. release. So far, all other such releases have been by SONY.

Has there not been another WB Cinavia infected release since The Losers? Fascinating. I haven't been keeping score in regards to the studios that have Cinavia embedded in some of their releases. I would have thought WB would start using it more.

SamuriHL

3rd January 2011, 23:17

So, back on the topic of DEFEATING Cinavia, this link was just posted on SlySoft:

http://www.mkv2vob.com/showthread.php?tid=1962

That's extremely interesting!

setarip_old

3rd January 2011, 23:31

@samuriHL

Actually, the link you provided is to "mkv2vob Forums" (not Slysoft) - but initially interesting, nonetheless.

Is this something you've tried and, if so, confirmed as working?

SamuriHL

3rd January 2011, 23:35

@samuriHL

Actually, the link you provided is to "mkv2vob Forums" (not Slysoft) - but initially interesting, nonetheless.

Is this something you've tried and, if so, confirmed as working?

Um, didn't you read what I said? :) The *LINK* was posted on the SlySoft forum so I copied it and posted it here. :)

And no, it was JUST posted on SlySoft before I posted it here. And from the looks of the posts on the mkv2vob forum, this particular release looks broken anyway. I'm going to keep an eye on their forum for sure, though. This could be an interesting development.

setarip_old

3rd January 2011, 23:43

@SamuriHLUm, didn't you read what I said?Read, yes - absorbed, obviously not ;>}

It will be interesting to see if there are further developments...

SamuriHL

3rd January 2011, 23:49

@SamuriHLRead, yes - absorbed, obviously not ;>}

ROFL! :D It happens to all of us.

It will be interesting to see if there are further developments...

Yea, definitely. And since the source code was posted, as well, I'm sure some brave souls will take a look at it and be able to figure out what they're doing to break Cinavia detection. I'm quite impressed if it works. Unfortunately with the current version of the tool seemingly broken, it'll be difficult to determine if it actually works for now.

SamuriHL

4th January 2011, 02:09

The author just posted this on the SlySoft forum:

I am the author of that program.
It doesn't convert/transcode to PCM, it does SPDIF conversion.
The PS3 "thinks" its playing a PCM, but really its bitstreaming a DTS to the amp.
Source code
http://www.3r1c.eu/mkv2vob/dtsinpcm.c
I can assure you it does work.

This particular method may not be very useful for anydvd though, it only works on ps3 and requires an external DTS amp, otherwise you just get static.

That's a pretty sweet idea!

setarip_old

4th January 2011, 02:34

The tool as described by its author, "3r1c", sounds like it's a similar (not identical) concept to the hardware-only procedure in item #5 of Post #405 by "Eza17" (and confirmed as working by "b66pak" in Post #411) of this thread, to wit: 5. A fix that worked for me on the PS3 is to tweak the sound settings in the following way: Go to settings > Sound Settings, select the optical option and place a tick against every possible output type. Set the option relating to sound from multiple sources to 'On'. For some reason, with these sound options set, the Cinavia watermark isn't picked up

A.Fenderson

4th January 2011, 02:41

So now the question becomes: will Cinavia be updated so that implementing devices not only decode all LPCM tracks as such and check for the watermark, but also check all LPCM tracks for embedded DTS/DD/etc signals, and if detected, decode as such and again check for the watermark?

setarip_old

4th January 2011, 03:28

@A.Fenderson

Hi!

As I said in my earlier post:"I believe this could send the Cinavia folks back to the drawing board"

And who could ask for anything more? The chase is on ;>}

As one would have anticipated when "The Losers" first hit the streets, it was only going to be a short period of time until methods of defeating Cinavia would be discovered. Quite honestly I, for one, did not anticipate that apparent solutions (four - one software, one hardware/firmware mod, one multi-audio input "trick, and remarkably, simply changing the state of ONE VARIABLE!)) would appear this early on.

All four of the solutions address only the PS3. This is logical and beneficial, in light of the size of the PS3s user base versus the user bases of each individual brand of standalone Blu-ray player. And it may put smiles on the faces of some, to appreciate that, with the exception of one title, thus far all Cinavia-infected discs have been SONY releases. I'm sure solutions regarding standalones will follow.

I believe we'll all be delighted with the existing and near future solutions to come. Kudos to those who have the knowledge and dedication to solve these periodic "mysteries" - and are good enough to share them with the community ;>}

flambot

4th January 2011, 05:53

Kudos to those who have the knowledge and dedication to solve these periodic "mysteries" - and are good enough to share them with the community ;>}

Amen to that brother!

derbeDeus

4th January 2011, 11:51

The author just posted this on the SlySoft forum:

That's a pretty sweet idea!

I tried that a long time ago, but could not find an external decoder that will like the dts-in-pcm signal coming from ps3. It is a sweet idea, but not much applicable :(

Eza17

4th January 2011, 12:30

The tool as described by its author, "3r1c", sounds like it's a similar (not identical) concept to the hardware-only procedure in item #5 of Post #405 by "Eza17" (and confirmed as working by "b66pak" in Post #411) of this thread, to wit:

Another workaround for the PS3 is to use a DLNA media server (sorry if someone has already mentioned this). I have tried streaming with TVersity and cinavia is completely ignored when watching a movie by this method.

A.Fenderson

4th January 2011, 18:09

I tried that a long time ago, but could not find an external decoder that will like the dts-in-pcm signal coming from ps3. It is a sweet idea, but not much applicable :(

Full-bitrate, 48KHz DTS within PCM may not be expected by the majority of DTS-capable receivers, but 44.1KHz DTS-CD style audio might--did your setup allow you to try that? Then again, I don't know if that type of stream can be encapsulated properly in a 48KHz pcm stream, and with the different sampling rates it seems unlikely, besides I think you'd need something like SurCode to reencode down to the lower bit/sampling-rate anyway.

setarip_old

5th January 2011, 23:48

Apparently, the discovery last week by "failOverflow" (of changing the status of a solitary variable) has quickly led to software that will allow users to modify the PS3's firmware.

The potential regarding circumvention of Cinavia protection on PS3s should be all too obvious. Click on the following link:

http://kotaku.com/5725088/you-can-now-install-your-own-custom-ps3-firmware

The Scientist

9th January 2011, 03:19

As I was updating my rebox.NET tool over the weekend I thought I’d have a mess with some Cinavia titles to see if any PS3 settings and/or different output types from rebox.NET could give me successful playback of these titles. Obviously I can only speak for my own setup, FAT PS3 PAL, connected to TV (old plasma) via component cable, standard stereo output leads to TV.

PS3 audio (default): refers to my default audio settings, menu option 'Audio Input Connector /SCART / AV MULTI’
PS3 audio (all enabled): refers to the ‘audio trick’ mentioned in a few places around the net, menu option ‘Optical Digital’ and select all outputs.

http://www.videonet.webspace.virginmedia.com/_gfx/cinavia.png

I tried many sequences of playback order, sometimes MP4 first, sometimes audio default, sometimes playing one then switching to another, the only difference this would make is Cinavia would ‘kick in’ on titles before the 20 minute ‘grace’ period, especially after I’d received a warning then switch to another title. But, like the picture shows, with all the audio outputs ticked, the TS files always played OK, no matter how I tried to get it to fail.

Maybe this info will be of use to some people.

setarip_old

9th January 2011, 07:46

@The Scientist

Hi!

Did I misunderstand your test analysis? Is there a reason you didn't test with a ripped Blu-ray disc and its .M2TS files?

Ghitulescu

9th January 2011, 11:10

Obviously I can only speak for my own setup, FAT PS3 PAL, connected to TV (old plasma) via component cable, standard stereo output leads to TV.

I thought cinavia would be triggered only when using HD audio fully digital :confused: I see now they had a step ahead :mad:

derbeDeus

9th January 2011, 12:24

Obviously I can only speak for my own setup, FAT PS3 PAL, connected to TV (old plasma) via component cable, standard stereo output leads to TV.

And yet you didn't tell us your firmware version.
There is no difference between fat and slim, code-wise.
There is no difference between various Cinavia movies, it's the same watermark in all of them (I mean the digital payload).

SamuriHL

9th January 2011, 14:11

I thought cinavia would be triggered only when using HD audio fully digital :confused: I see now they had a step ahead :mad:

I'm pretty sure I posted my tests from The Losers MP4 with stereo AAC that I made back when the disc first came out. That triggers Cinavia on my PS3 quite well. So yea, it survives all re-encoding and even analog attempts to record it.

The Scientist

9th January 2011, 14:24

Did I misunderstand your test analysis? Is there a reason you didn't test with a ripped Blu-ray disc and its .M2TS files?
Yes I think we have a misunderstanding..... This wasn’t an exhaustive test, this was just me messing whilst I was re-writing all the audio stuff in rebox.NET over the weekend, which neither accepts nor produces .m2ts files and I can hardly put a full .m2ts file on my 4GB FAT32 USB stick for the PS3. I posted my little results just so people could see re-muxing to TS may well be a viable option for watching Cinavia movies on their PS3.

And yet you didn't tell us your firmware version.
There is no difference between fat and slim, code-wise.
There is no difference between various Cinavia movies, it's the same watermark in all of them (I mean the digital payload).
I didn't think anyone here was saying otherwise? But yes, the firmware, my bad, forgot all about that, it's v3.55.

The Scientist

9th January 2011, 14:42

I'm pretty sure I posted my tests from The Losers MP4 with stereo AAC that I made back when the disc first came out. That triggers Cinavia on my PS3 quite well. So yea, it survives all re-encoding and even analog attempts to record it.
The first time I heard about Cinavia was my brother on the phone telling me a warning had just popped up on his PS3, it was the movie 'The Losers'. Speaking as like I knew what I was talking about I told him to just convert it to a different format, which he did, but without success.

We even made an AVI with MP3 audio then used VirtualDub to save a segmented AVI of 10 minute chunks, still, Cinavia message was displayed.

SamuriHL

9th January 2011, 14:52

The first time I heard about Cinavia was my brother on the phone telling me a warning had just popped up on his PS3, it was the movie 'The Losers'. Speaking as like I knew what I was talking about I told him to just convert it to a different format, which he did, but without success.

We even made an AVI with MP3 audio then used VirtualDub to save a segmented AVI of 10 minute chunks, still, Cinavia message was displayed.

That would be typical of my experience with Cinavia, as well. It's not an easy thing to "get rid of". The "loophole" of turning on ALL audio support in the PS3 is just that...a loophole. It's not an effective means of defeating Cinavia. It's simply a "work around" for now.

rotty

9th January 2011, 16:50

That would be typical of my experience with Cinavia, as well. It's not an easy thing to "get rid of". The "loophole" of turning on ALL audio support in the PS3 is just that...a loophole. It's not an effective means of defeating Cinavia. It's simply a "work around" for now.

Cinavis WILL survive in NON HiFi audio, in fact in very poor audio, its not because its clever, its just the way the exsiting audio is altered to encode the Cinavia marks, will atomatically survive. It will survive in telephone audio bandwidth quality.

Its just audio well within the normal audio hearing spectrum, if I record the word "Hello" you would still expect to hear that and understand it even in bad bandwidth recording, its the same with Cinavia, its just the normal audio altered slightly which is then detectable by the Cinavia detection circuit.

Eza17

10th January 2011, 12:26

I think completely 'defeating' cinavia is a bit off yet and the best we can hope for is 'workarounds' in the short term. A workaround is still a defeat for cinavia as it makes the protection useless.

I think my earlier post (no. 405) shows how robust the watermark is, resistant to speeding up/slowing down, not affected when played backwards and contained within every 4 seconds of audio.

SamuriHL

10th January 2011, 13:46

Eza17

10th January 2011, 15:08

I wasn't trying to imply that work arounds are a bad thing. However, the issue with a work around or loophole is that they can be quickly and easily fixed, sending you back to square one. Hence you have to be weary of every new firmware update on the PS3 for fear of them closing this particular loophole. That's all I meant.

I couldn't agree more and of course the present 'workarounds' are only relevant to PS3's, not other players.

I think it will be interesting to see how long it takes them to patch the main loophole (audio settings 'tweak'), if it's even possible to fix with a patch. Obviously they're not going to rush a firmware update out just for this but the interesting thing will be if it is included in the next release.

setarip_old

10th January 2011, 23:01

In an attempt to get a feel for just how significant a factor the PS3 is vis-a-vis "Cinavia", I attempted to perform what I thought would be a relatively simple search for a comparison of the PS3 installed versus the installed user base(s) of all standalone blu-ray players.

While I can readily locate similar information, comparing the PS3 to other "game machines", to my surprise, I've thus far been unable to locate such information regarding blu-ray players.

Is anyone else able to provide such information?

SamuriHL

11th January 2011, 01:21

That info is highly controversial from what I've seen out there. The reason I say that is because Sony counts EVERY PS3 as a BD player, which in fact is not true. So no, I've never seen "actual" BD usage figures that are even remotely considered accurate.

setarip_old

11th January 2011, 02:16

@SamuriHL

Hi!

It wouldn't be controversial to me, for the purpose I stated ("Just to get a feel...").

Therefore, if you can point to, or state, such information, I'd appreciate it.

I'm desirous of comparing the total number of PS3s sold to the toal number of (all brands combined, excluding the PS3) standalone Blu-ray players sold...

SamuriHL

11th January 2011, 03:34

It's been a while since I last read about it. I can't seem to find the article I had read. There were a lot of complaints about Sony's reporting of *EVERY* PS3 sold counted as a blu-ray player that's actually used. The reality is that not everyone uses the PS3 as a blu-ray player. Some people ONLY use it as a media player. So the hard figures are going to be difficult to find at best. I definitely understand what you're wishing to compare. I myself would find such a comparison very very interesting. I hope someone somewhere can point you to it. I'd be very curious to see how big the PS3 is as a percentage of the total for actually used blu-ray players.

A.Fenderson

11th January 2011, 03:53

There were a lot of complaints about Sony's reporting of *EVERY* PS3 sold counted as a blu-ray player that's actually used. The reality is that not everyone uses the PS3 as a blu-ray player. Some people ONLY use it as a media player.

If I had to guess, I would say even more people use it only as a video game console. :)

SamuriHL

11th January 2011, 04:19

If I had to guess, I would say even more people use it only as a video game console. :)

Yea, that was the controversy. It was speculated that the majority of people bought it strictly as a game console. But Sony didn't see it that way and in fact used sales numbers of PS3's sold as "evidence" that blu-ray was winning against HD DVD. Microsoft couldn't counter because they didn't include the HD DVD drive as part of the 360...instead making it an addon. Anyway, back to the point, it's going to be EXTREMELY difficult to find that information. I just did a search and couldn't turn up anything useful. If someone has this information, I'm sure seta and I would be extremely happy to have it.

setarip_old

11th January 2011, 05:04

Please stay focussed - As I said in Post #491, the only thing I'm seeking iswithout regard to usage, a comparison of the PS3 installed versus the installed user base(s) of all standalone blu-ray players. The purpose is to try and appreciate the possible impact of "Cinavia" on the Blu-ray viewing world as a whole.

As such, my quest(ion) has nothing to do with gaming console comparisons, non-Blu-ray usage of PS3s, or disputes between MS and SONY...

Adub

11th January 2011, 07:23

Just got this email from DVDFAB:

It is pleasure to take this opportunity to share an exciting news that DVDFab has the power to tackle the playback problem of Cinavia protected Blu-ray on PS3. This is definitely a great breakthrough as DVDFab is the world first universal solution to play backup of Cinavia protected Blu-ray disc on PS3.

Now DVDFab can copy any Blu-ray disc with Cinavia watermark, and create a protected disc BDMV-REC disc which can be played on PS3. Why BDMV-REC? Since it is very much the same as the original BDMV-ROM (the original disc), with menus, interactivity, BD-Live, etc. So from now on, with DVDFab, you can enjoy backup disc of any Cinavia protected Blu-ray movies on your PS3.

What is more, DVDFab is working on other Cinavia solutions as well. No time later, a solution which supports protected BDAV and is more compatible with most BD players will come out for use.

We hope all the effort we paid will meet the needs of more and more global users and make DVDFab become a world-renowned brand.

setarip_old

11th January 2011, 11:16

Ghitulescu

11th January 2011, 11:29

If this is borne out by user testing (And I see no reason why it wouldn't be. "fengtao" doesn't "blow smoke"), it sounds like it may already be necessary for the "Cinavia" folks to "go back to the drawing board" (as I previously suggested might have to occur in the near future) - or, perhaps, just tuck their tails between their legs and disappear into the night.

No need, so far only 2 embodiments of the 128 possibilities (current licencing stand) were implemented. Since cinavia is SW-based (ie it requires no HW chip onboard) future and mandatory FW releases would close this loophole, too.

However, the combined non-acceptance of cinavia titles by consumer and methods to circumvent this protection might have the same result as the 2004 action against unCDs.