"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection

[xenex]

Hmm, what is now interesting is that a "DVD" now includes Cinavia - "Takers"

http://www.dvdempire.com/Exec/v4_item.asp?item_id=1557091&tab=5&back=1&anchor=1#topoftabs

No doubt that this is not for "Cinavia-protected" DVD players, but instead to close the 'loophole' of BD-Rips being remuxed with DVD AC3 audio. If the DVD AC3 audio is watermarked in the same way as the lossless BD audio, I'd expect that there will be no PS3-playable version of "Takers" at all.

[fengtao]

http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?t=7102

We noticed that too, so simply remuxing DVD AC3 audio into Blu-ray backup will not work on PS3.

Our solution at DVDFab for Cinavia on PS3 will be out very soon.

[setarip_old]

@Ghitulescu

You say:Since cinavia is SW-based (ie it requires no HW chip onboard) future and mandatory FW releases would close this loophole, too.

1) If you're correct, it's rather odd that only three or 4 standalone players (and not a SONY amongst them) are "fitted" for Cinavia.

2) I'm guessing that you haven't clicked on the links in my Posts #448 and #478 in this thread. It seems that the PS3 firmware is irreversibly hacked.

[Eza17]

In an attempt to get a feel for just how significant a factor the PS3 is vis-a-vis "Cinavia", I attempted to perform what I thought would be a relatively simple search for a comparison of the PS3 installed versus the installed user base(s) of all standalone blu-ray players.

While I can readily locate similar information, comparing the PS3 to other "game machines", to my surprise, I've thus far been unable to locate such information regarding blu-ray players.

Is anyone else able to provide such information?

Going back to this question, the best indication I could find of what sort of percentage we are talking about is given in the following article:

http://www.twice.com/article/461843-Blu_ray_Growth_Seen_Despite_IP_Streaming.php

Basically this is saying that 25 million households in America will have bluray capability by the end of the year (doesn't make it clear wether that is 2010 or 2011). The figure of 25 million does include ps3's and the article also says that until 2010, ps3's had the largest share of the bluray player market but were surpassed in this year.

Even if it was surpassed, that still puts the ps3 way above any other player. I know this article only talks about America but it does give a rough bench mark.

[Ghitulescu]

@Ghitulescu

You say:

1) If you're correct, it's rather odd that only three or 4 standalone players (and not a SONY amongst them) are "fitted" for Cinavia.

2) I'm guessing that you haven't clicked on the links in my Posts #448 and #478 in this thread. It seems that the PS3 firmware is irreversibly hacked.

to 1. - I am correct, however the algorithm is quite complicated and needs some man-hours to fit it into the current FW; and of course many HW manufacturers resist cinavia, at least for the sold units, not because they are doing a favour to us, but because implementing it into "old" gear incurs only costs but no benefits. I think they [re]negociate the deals again now - you know, Hollywood is also dependent on HW manufacturers, too, a sort of symbiosis.

to 2. - I've seen the posts. It also says there that the copyrights will be respected, this statement implies many (legal) issues ... ;)

Additional point: PS3 is not a BD player, it's a game console with BD playback option (as correctly someone said earlier). It plays the role of a laboratory white mouse - it was used by Sony to win the BD-HDDVD war and it is still used to test various techniques, including cinavia.

My deep belive is that PS3 was a real alternative to standalones only when those cost 400€ or more (2007 and earlier). Someone paying now 300-400€ for PS3 to use it exclusively as a BD player is simply mad: a SAP costs ~100€ and draws 14W, a PS3 bare costs 300€ and needs 197W. PS3 is also noisy and does not fit into a HiFi rack. And it would cause family wars: the father watching BDs vs. the kid playing games, the same time of course.

If FengTao assertions are correct, that PS3 could be forced somehow to play cinavied backups, then he won the battle but not the war: obliging the players to be online and since the FW being now silently updated, the outcome is simply reversible. Anytime now ... I would prefere AnyDVD and DVDfab be concerned with real BD players, they outnumber PS3 by 1000x ...

[Eza17]

... Anytime now ... I would prefere AnyDVD and DVDfab be concerned with real BD players, they outnumber PS3 by 1000x ...

I think this is an underestimate of the number of PS3's out there if you look at the link to the thread I posted above. Indications would be that the PS3 out-numbers any other individual player and is just under 50% of the total BD devices ever sold.

I do agree it is primarily a games console but a quick search on the web shows a lot of people also use it as a media player.

[Ghitulescu]

I think this is an underestimate of the number of PS3's out there if you look at the link to the thread I posted above. Indications would be that the PS3 out-numbers any other individual player and is just under 50% of the total BD devices ever sold.

One of my friends has access to the sales figures of one of the biggest A/V chain in Germany, I agree it's not 1000:1 but it's definitively not 1:1, it was in the past maybe ... but this is not important now, defeating cinavia is ... the simplest way of doint it is to keep the FW updates away from the player ;)

[mike20021969]

Our solution at DVDFab for Cinavia on PS3 will be out very soon.
This sounds like great news for PS3 users.

[setarip_old]

@Ghitulescu

1) Additional point: PS3 is not a BD player, it's a game console with BD playback option (as correctly someone said earlier).What is your point in stating something everyone knows?

2) I've seen the posts. It also says there that the copyrights will be respectedWhere did you see this? If you're referring to the "failOverflow" video, there was a line on a slide about how they got their name that said "No trademark infringement" - very different than copyrights. Or are you referring to the more recent hack, of which the article states, "KaKaRoTo says 'this custom firmware is really meant for future homebrew installation', and in addition 'will not allow piracy'?."

Besides, a statement that such hacks of this nature would not infringe on copyrights would have assuredly been made with tongue planted firmly in cheek - especially since the "failOverflow" group acknowledges that their previous have been used by "others" to circumvent game protection ;>}

3)many HW manufacturers resist cinavia, at least for the sold units...because implementing it into "old" gear incurs only costs but no benefits.Whether regarding already sold or future sales, there is the same "benefit" or lack thereof to hardware-only manufacturers (SONY, of course, is a vertically and horizontally integrated entity. Its studios would theoretically benefit from reduced piracy).

4)I would prefere AnyDVD and DVDfab be concerned with real BD players, they outnumber PS3 by 1000x

Based on the reasonable-sounding statistics in the article linked to and quoted by "Eza17" in post #504, you're statement appears to be specious. Certainly, there have not been 25 BILLION (1,000 times 25 million) standalone players sold in the U.S. or anywhere else.

5) My deep belive (sic)...My, but you do enjoy wandering off the road ;>} BTW, in seeking installed user base, there's no need or point in trying to discern whether a purchaser of a PS3 uses it "exclusively as a BD player". All that's relevant is that a piece of equipment/hardware that can play Blu-ray discs has been purchased.

6) he won the battle but not the warYes, as I've already said in two or three earlier posts, resolving this initial iteration of Cinavia will "send them back to the drawing board". However, based on the information in the articles and video of the most recent two links I provided, it seems clear that presently, "the door is wide open" to access and manipulate the PS3's firmware, with SONY unable to prevent such activity (Again, PRESENTLY).

[setarip_old]

@Eza17

Thank you very much for locating that link ;>}

[Ghitulescu]

1) What is your point in stating something everyone knows?
It was in the context, and even if extracted therefrom, it would say that Sony won't loose anything (now that it won the format war and manufactures erh labels BD players) by withdrawing the BD playback capability, erh, like it did with SACD playback, should PS3 be considered less safe.
2) Where did you see this? If you're referring to the "failOverflow" video, there was a line on a slide about how they got their name that said "No trademark infringement" - very different than copyrights. Besides, a statement that such hacks of this nature would not infringe on copyrights would have assuredly been made with tongue planted firmly in cheek - especially since the "failOverflow" group acknowledges that their previous have been used by "others" to circumvent game protection ;>}
My mistake, I've read the posts long time ago and I reacted only now. Things got somehow mixed up :( I know the diference between tardemark and copyright, incidentally.
3)Whether regarding already sold or future sales, there is the same "benefit" or lack thereof to hardware-only manufacturers (SONY, of course, is a vertically and horizontally integrated entity. Its studios would theoretically benefit from reduced piracy).
Sony drew the right conclusions after the Betamax case ;)
4)
Based on the reasonable-sounding statistics in the article linked to and quoted by "Eza17" in post #504, you're statement appears to be specious. Certainly, there have not been 25 BILLION (1,000 times 25 million) standalone players sold in the U.S. or anywhere else.
As I said before, info from someone having access to some sales figures showed that PS3 sales were deep down compared to SAPs. I exagerated a bit, thinking of point 1, of course - should Sony withdraw the BD playback capability or "castrate" it ...
6) Yes, as I've already said in two or three earlier posts, resolving this initial iteration of Cinavia will "send them back to the drawing board". However, based on the information in the articles and video of the most recent two links I provided, it seems clear that presently, "the door is wide open" to access and manipulate the PS3's firmware, with SONY unable to prevent such activity (Again, PRESENTLY).
As I said, the patents I've read protect around 7 different types of embedding a "non-volatile" watermark (and combinations thereof), there's no need to go back to work, just to enforce them via AACS.

The only soluton is to refuse to buy the affected titles. In combination with solutions to copy them.

[mike20021969]

doesn't make it clear wether that is 2010 or 2011
As the story was posted 6th January 2011, then it MUST be referring to 2011 :rolleyes:

[setarip_old]

@Eza17, @mike20021969

I just read the article you, "Eza17", provided a link to. My interpretation is different than yours. Actually, the fact that the article is dated January 6, 2011makes it certain that the article cannot possibly be providing results for the calendar year 2011. Rather, the tenor of the remarks indicates that the figures are projected FYE December 31, 2010, based on actual results for the three quarters ended September 30, 2010.

Unfortunately, there's nothing in the article that allows for determining the PS3's share of "Blu-ray playback capability".

[rotty]

The only soluton is to refuse to buy the affected titles. In combination with solutions to copy them.

I know I keep saying this, but the above is the answer, we REALLY do have Ultimate power, DONT BUY THESE DISKS.

There is no weapon in their arsenal to combat that.

[jdobbs]

If you could get those other 500 million people that have no idea what "Cinavia" is and have no interest in finding out to agree with you, then it just might work.

[Ghitulescu]

If you could get those other 500 million people that have no idea what "Cinavia" is and have no interest in finding out to agree with you, then it just might work.

This is a start ;) and if more and more magazines and web sites would join the battle, like it was the case in 2004, maybe we'll get the same result, or at least a significant price drop

[Eza17]

@Eza17, @mike20021969

I just read the article you, "Eza17", provided a link to. My interpretation is different than yours. Actually, the fact that the article is dated January 6, 2011makes it certain that the article cannot possibly be providing results for the calendar year 2011. Rather, the tenor of the remarks indicates that the figures are projected FYE December 31, 2010, based on actual results for the three quarters ended September 30, 2010.

Unfortunately, there's nothing in the article that allows for determining the PS3's share of "Blu-ray playback capability".

Hi, I agree with you that the figures seem to be for 2010 and this is confirmed by another article I found from the Digital Entertainment Group:

http://www.degonline.org/pressreleases/2011/f_Q410.pdf

From scouting the web, I could only find a statement on US PS3 sales up to April 2010 which was then at 12 million (out of the worldwide sales of 41.6 million). Even on the April figure, it's clear that the PS3 is a substantial 'chunk' of the bluray player market.

[rotty]

If you could get those other 500 million people that have no idea what "Cinavia" is and have no interest in finding out to agree with you, then it just might work.

Im sorry to say this JD but that is a defeatist attitude that will always lead to, of course, DEFEAT.

Im in the glass half full club. Believe it or not, blu ray is still to a great extent an enthusiast interest and although not the entire market, it is a high proportion and they DO know about Cinavia.

You are one of the HI PROFILE people on here and I have to say I would like you to give words of encouragement to the fight against un fairness. We can make a big difference.

Spread The Word

[jdobbs]

No. Defeatist is saying "We can't undo Cinavia, so let's boycott it." If something can be added to audio, it can also be removed. And it will, you just have to give it time. Remember how daunting CSS or AACS was? Remember when they held up production of players so that BD+ could be further developed? Did a boycott solve that issue? At some point some clever young person is going to disassemble the firmware on a Cinavia player and see what it is looking for.

You're not going to get the world excited about Cinavia... hell, you can't even get me excited about it and I'm actually interested. So... change the things you can, accept the things you can't, and learn to know the difference. A few months or a year from now we'll all be talking about how there used to be something called "Cinavia" and we'll be sending checks to DVDFab or Slysoft -- either that or we'll be looking at the free code from some 19 year old kid in nowheresville is sending around. The topic then will be whatever "spinavia" comes next.

I think the biggest obstacle to a Cinavia solution is that the limited number of titles using it isn't enough to get hackers excited yet.

Just my humble opinion.

[Ghitulescu]

No. Defeatist is saying "We can't undo Cinavia, so let's boycott it." If something can be added to audio, it can also be removed. And it will, you just have to give it time. Remember how daunting CSS or AACS was? Remember when they held up production of players so that BD+ could be further developed? Did a boycott solve that issue? At some point some clever young person is going to disassemble the firmware on a Cinavia player and see what it is looking for.
...
Just my humble opinion.

Of course you're right, but I think that rotty wanted to say that if you too would keep saying, with your authority, "Bad bad cinavia" more people would eventually be aware of.

[rotty]

No. Defeatist is saying "We can't undo Cinavia, so let's boycott it." If something can be added to audio, it can also be removed. And it will, you just have to give it time. Remember how daunting CSS or AACS was? Remember when they held up production of players so that BD+ could be further developed? Did a boycott solve that issue? At some point some clever young person is going to disassemble the firmware on a Cinavia player and see what it is looking for.

You're not going to get the world excited about Cinavia... hell, you can't even get me excited about it and I'm actually interested. So... change the things you can, accept the things you can't, and learn to know the difference. A few months or a year from now we'll all be talking about how there used to be something called "Cinavia" and we'll be sending checks to DVDFab or Slysoft -- either that or we'll be looking at the free code from some 19 year old kid in nowheresville is sending around. The topic then will be whatever "spinavia" comes next.

I think the biggest obstacle to a Cinavia solution is that the limited number of titles using it isn't enough to get hackers excited yet.

Just my humble opinion.

I agree with what you are saying completely, and what Ghitulescu is saying is what I meant. It was not meant as "a go at you" at all. Quite the opposite.

This problem should be being looked at in both directions, i.e. defeating the actual problem + boycott.

Boycott however sends a very strong message for now and the FUTURE.

Resolving the actual problem only, means that there will be another attempt at this and so on.

Boycott says we are NOT going to put up with this.

[xenex]

Just to add some Cinavia technical info. I just came across, a poster on the Slysoft forums has done some (very minor) disassembly of some watermark code that I find interesting:

http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=296946&postcount=1122

And, although I had read the patents before, I just re-read them and it's interesting how "clever" our "enemies" are - from the patents:

However, it is not necessary for every embedder and/or extractor to contain all possible watermarking technologies. The objective is to keep results of an attack inconsistent, unpredictable, and confusing both to the attacker and to the user of pirated content. For example, it may be desirable to lead the attacker to believe that an attack is successful, and to distribute his results, and then to find out that this is not the case, resulting in the attacker's loss of credibility. Similarly, it may be desirable to make the pirates invest time and effort to find a procedure, or a ‘black box’ that enables piracy only to discover that it works only for special cases.

In the case of embedders, it may be advantageous to reserve some of the embedding technologies for future use, as attacks on already deployed watermarks grow more sophisticated and more successful. Generally, the selection of watermarking technologies in the embedder must be as flexible and as dynamic as possible. This could mean that the selection of particular embedding technologies could be done in accordance with the degree of success or failure of piracy attacks on already released content.

Similarly, not all watermarking technologies may be implemented in each extraction device. This would simplify implementation of extractors in consumer devices and reduce silicon area and processing load. It will also make extractor performance unpredictable, as extraction results would differ from one device to another, making attacks inconsistent and frustrating to casual pirates.

The above quote is from here:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7369677.html

Also interesting is the Ed Felten (et. al.) attack on the SDMI challenge back in 2000:

http://www.usenix.org/events/sec01/craver.pdf

I post this just to possibly generate some technical discussion. I only know a very little about audio processing, but a bit more about assembly / machine code programming. But I find the technical details fascinating in any case. I'm a geek. :p

[Ghitulescu]

Thank you Xenex for giving support for what I've said and keep saying. Everyone keeps talking about experiencing cinavia but the same everyone didn't care to read the patents, to know what to fight to.
The aim of the studios is not to create a bulletproof protection, but to manage to have one strong enough not to be bypassed by Average Joe Jr., then to banish the tools that allow this - there's a long list of "illegal" tools in Germany - this also explains why companies like Elby moved to fiscal paradieses, before getting out of business ... It is known that a hacker can eventually crack the defense, just that hackers are few and they are somehow tolerated (like the fleas on a dog), I said 10% damages.

[HWK]

The first solution to disable Cinavia is here. DVDFab has a new way of creating backups so they don't trigger Cinavia anymore. This solution is particularly useful for PS3 users who were the most affected by Cinavia. What makes it a great solution is that the disc is much like the original, a protected backup so the Cinavia-enabled player will see it as trusted source and will play it back just like the original. People have made protected (isos) backups in the past, but those had the disadvantage that they only worked with the programs that made them; well, these protected backups are supposed to work on standalone players too.

Technical details: the discs created are called BDMV-REC as they are AACS protected recordable BDMV. Another solution would be AACS protected BDAV, like the ones produced by Japanese BD recorders.

Requirements:
original Blu-ray disc with Cinavia watermark. DVDFab and DVDFab Passkey will tell if you have such a disc
a BD-RE (recommended for initial tests) or BD-R disc to store the protected backup
a BD writer
updated writing software. DVDFab checks for it anyway

Pros:
It is a solution to disable Cinavia, exactly as it is disabled for the original disc, due to (AACS) protection layer being active.
DVDFab does all the tricks involved to create such a protected backup at a push of a button.
The disc can preserve all the original features like menus, interactivity, BD-Live.
Broad firmware support: PS3 users with firmware from 1.60 and up to 3.55 can use BDMV-REC discs; fw3.55 is the latest at the time of writing.
At any time, DVDFab or DVDFab Passkey can be used to remove the protection, if you need to.
This is kind of an official solution, because it involves support from AACS standards, the same standards that force adoption of Cinavia
While we tested it on PS3 for now, it may work on other players too. As results from tests will become available we'll update you with. Also it seems that only PS3 has Cinavia detector in current, up-to-date firmware (others disabled it, like LG, or just announced it for future firmware).

Cons:
BDMV-REC is not implemented by all players. BD Players implemented Blu-ray standards as they saw fit to market their products. Not all of them have implemented AACS Recordable BDMV (BDMV-REC). PS3, being one of the best players, did.
If not on PS3, we encourage users to check the playback support for "AACS protected recordable BDMV" either with BD Player support or with a BD-RE.
PC players support protected BDAV, but not BDMV-REC.
Cinavia is not removed, just disabled. Well, whatever works We tried to provide you with a solution asap and this was the quickest.

We plan to add support for the above-mentioned protected BDAV which gives a much broader adoption among BD Players, but does not have all the features: no menu, no interactivity, no BD-live, it simply is a Movie-only format.

Source:
http://forum.dvdfab.com/showthread.php?t=7102

[setarip_old]

@fengtao

Can this Cinavia-circumventing version of DVDFab ( wonderful news, by the way ;>} ) be used either presently, or modified, to create an .ISO image file that might then be compressed to BD9 or BD5 and, therefore, not require a Blu-ray burner (a BD ROM would suffice)?

[rotty]

Now I would say im an optimist and don’t want to put a downer on this but remember the extract from Xenex a few posts ago.

I have fears that the measures so far can may well be ephemeral.
Working disks produced by this method may soon be coasters.

Looking at this from the other side of the fence, as Xenex pointed out, this is the sort of thing they have been waiting for. Have people think that its cracked or circumvented, let it go on for a while then ...

If you were a power in the implementation of Cinavia what would you do for the next f/w update.

Yep that’s right, one of the things you had in mind all along, have the player check the disk itself, i.e. have it check the type of disk, is it a ROM, simple as that. If it is NOT a ROM and has Cinavia watermark then .............

When I read this back to myself it makes me sound a right kill joy and ungratful for any efforts to combat this which I am certainly not, but I am a realist, and it is just an honest opinion. I hope im very wrong.

[setarip_old]

As I've said before, disc copy protection is, and always will be "a cat and mouse game", ever since the "unbreakable" CSS was first defeated. Now that the PS3 has been hacked, purportedly irreversibly, by "Geohot"/George Hotz (acknowledged/confirmed by a lawsuit by SONY), I'd speculate that those who are actively involved in attempting to overcome, circumvent, and/or eliminate Cinavia protection are, for at least these past few days, smiling broadly ;>}

[rotty]

As I've said before, disc copy protection is, and always will be "a cat and mouse game", ever since the "unbreakable" CSS was first defeated. Now that the PS3 has been hacked, purportedly irreversibly, by "Geohot"/George Hotz (acknowledged/confirmed by a lawsuit by SONY), I'd speculate that those who are actively involved in attempting to overcome, circumvent, and/or eliminate Cinavia protection are, for at least these past few days, smiling broadly ;>}

Hi Setarip

Yes but this is very different. When a code was cracked for DVD and BD, the disk you made would work, and in fact work for the lifetime of the disk.

The massive difference with the approach to circumventing Cinavia in the example from DVDFab is that a disk that you have created and that works fine and does not trigger the player into disrrupting playback could suddenly, at some future date, do just that and be useless.

Very very different from say CSS being removed from a DVD etc.

[setarip_old]

Yes, it's important, as "Rotty" has pointed out, that obviously, a solution that does not incorporate the BDMV disc standard is not a permanent solution.

However, more important is the simple fact that someone has now found (and offered to the community) a way to circumvent the PRESENT methodology employed regarding Cinavia. One does not have to be omniprescient to realize and appreciate that this first professional Cinavia-related success story, combined with (or, likely, resulting from) the purportedly irreversible hacking of the PS3, is not the "end all and be all" in the bigger Blu-ray protection challenge - rather this represents a "shot across the bow" of Verance, that COMPELS Verance to respond.

Prognostications regarding these non-BDMV Blu-rays becoming coasters are likely correct, but unnecessarily defeatist and no big deal - unless you're more concerned about the cost of new blank discs and the time required to make new backups, once the next iteration of Cinavia shows itself and is "resolved" by members of the community.

Without comparing the nature of types of protection, we are all still smiling about the alleged invulnerability of AACS and BD+. On the other hand, one should be aware that, if DVD licensing had been as organized and far reaching as is (apparently) that of Blu-ray licensing. We might all be saddled with several different DVD players capable of playing ONLY specially formatted discs - such as those players Disney distributes with screeners.

There are just so many ways one can say and recognize that this is an ongoing "cat and mouse game" - and historically, the "cat" (the community) has eventually always caught the "mouse" (the protection schemes)...

[rotty]

There are just so many ways one can say and recognize that this is an ongoing "cat and mouse game" - and historically, the "cat" (the community) has eventually always caught the "mouse" (the protection schemes)...

The problem now is that the Cat does NOT know if the solution acually IS the solution. The created disks may work for quite some time, only to find that actually the mouse has fooled you.

[setarip_old]

Yet again - it's an ONGOING game...

Instead of trying to pick out one sentence out of context (as you've now done two or three times) to "support" your defeatist attitude, I'd suggest you appreciate them as parts of the overall context of the postings in which they appear.

Yet again, without comparing the nature of types of protection, we are all still smiling about the alleged invulnerability of AACS and BD+.

Cinavia is not the end all and be all, just a stumbling block on the road...

[rotty]

Yet again - it's an ONGOING game...

Instead of trying to pick out one sentence out of context (as you've now done two or three times) to "support" your defeatist attitude, I'd suggest you appreciate them as parts of the overall context of the postings in which they appear.

Yet again, without comparing the nature of types of protection, we are all still smiling about the alleged invulnerability of AACS and BD+.

Cinavia is not the end all and be all, just a stumbling block on the road...


Who said it was the end of the road. And why on earth the attitude, a little over sensitive.

Reading your last post anyone would believe I had attacked you or your views which I have not.

I picked out that sentence because that was the one I felt was relevant, simple as that. The whole of your text is there for all to see in your post.

I am certainly not defeatist. I am a realist, and I am also an optimist.

So to backup your view that I am defeatist, let’s see where we are 1 year from here, (coasters n all).

[derbeDeus]

Yes, it's important, as "Rotty" has pointed out, that obviously, a solution that does not incorporate the BDMV disc standard is not a permanent solution.
...
Prognostications regarding these non-BDMV Blu-rays becoming coasters are likely correct

Two things to point here: there are two main standards here:
BDMV and BDAV. Anything else belongs to one of them. For instance AVCHD is a BDMV sort, AVCREC too. BDMV-rec is just a made up name, it's nowhere else to be found and I guess it simply tells BDMV on a recordable disc.

The other thing is that if sony&co decides to ban it, they simply throw away a part of the AACS standard, the one referring to recordable BDMV.

[setarip_old]

let’s see where we are 1 year from hereUndoubtedly several (solved) iterations of Cinavia further along than we are today...

[Ghitulescu]

The other thing is that if sony&co decides to ban it, they simply throw away a part of the AACS standard, the one referring to recordable BDMV.

Try not to forget that Matsushita is also involved in this game.

Anyway, as I said, the BD specs are continuously evolving, which defeats the purpose of a standard :p.

[rotty]

Undoubtedly several (solved) iterations of Cinavia further along than we are today...

Absolutely, im sure your right, many.

What I was saying was just caution, where as before, if a new encryption came out, when the disks were cracked, the created burned disks were safe, i.e. the created disk would always work.

The protection was encryption or corruption, and you know if you have been successful in removal of that.

Audio watermarking is different, you don’t want to remove the audio as you did with encryption. Digital stream marking along with many analogue types of marking are available, many of which could and probably are employed on these watermarked disks.

So what does this mean, well players right now may have f/w setup for perhaps one or two watermark types even though they are capable of detecting all of them.

So these new backup disks we have made and work fine could still contain marks we did not know about, we need the audio so we have inadvertently passed on the unknown marks. Unknown because they did not trigger the players on this f/w version.

This would be the first time in the history of video media where our known working backup collection could become useless at a future date. (Excluding longevity of course).

Please don’t think im defeatist, I have taken in what you and other people are saying, its just that we should be very cautious this time, it is different.

[derbeDeus]

So what does this mean, well players right now may have f/w setup for perhaps one or two watermark types even though they are capable of detecting all of them.

So these new backup disks we have made and work fine could still contain marks we did not know about, we need the audio so we have inadvertently passed on the unknown marks. Unknown because they did not trigger the players on this f/w version.

What you are talking about here applies to the case when Cinavia watermark is removed, not disabled. Indeed I've read that bit too (iirc, in a patent) that the watermark detector in a player will detect only whatever matches its stego key. And a removal tool based on a single player will likely remove it only partially. Yes, that makes sense, but is not the case here.

These kind of backups have Cinavia disabled for the same reason it is disabled on the original discs.

[rotty]

What you are talking about here applies to the case when Cinavia watermark is removed, not disabled. Indeed I've read that bit too (iirc, in a patent) that the watermark detector in a player will detect only whatever matches its stego key. And a removal tool based on a single player will likely remove it only partially. Yes, that makes sense, but is not the case here.

These kind of backups have Cinavia disabled for the same reason it is disabled on the original discs.

Hi derbeDeus

It will be interesting if our friends in the encryption removal buisness(s) place a warning "may still contain nuts" lol, on the s/w, i.e. may still contain watermarks (unknowable at this time).

I expect Peer will put us right and I hope we are wrong on this, and put to rest our fears.

[setarip_old]

It's my opinion that it's shortsighted to ignore the tremendously significant fact that the PS3 has been hacked, "including its Blu-ray and PS3 keys" - purportedly irreversibly. At least for now, as well as other things "non-Cinavia", this appears to blast open the door (with no way for SONY to close it for the time being) to exploration and cirumvention of "everything Cinavia" contained in the bowels of the PS3 - whether currently activated or "sleeper"/"time bomb" in nature. Once obtained and overcome regarding the PS3, it would presumably be a short time until such knowledge would be applied to all pure standalone players as well...

[rotty]

Yes, the attack on the PS3 is very interesting.

I don’t know, but I have had the impression that Sony don’t seem that bothered if the PS3 looses the ability to play Blu ray disks in favour of their standalone players.

It may be that the next gen of disks need an update to all players (not necessarily anything to do with Cinavia) to play the new disks. This update would NOT be available to the PS3. Only a guess.

As for back engineering, well not all Cinavia/other Audio watermark algorithm/program implementations will be in flash, these would have come with updates in the future, so although of some use, and of course interesting, not the whole picture.

So very significant these victories but we must keep our feet on the ground, how much this will impact on other standalones I think we must just see. Here's hoping.

[kurkosdr]

Don't want to rain on your parade guys, but doesn't the DVD Fab method require that we use the m2ts container and don't do any re-encoding? Having to avoid the use of the mkv container and the re-encoding of the content isn't much of a win IMO.

Why can't we take the DTS track from an NTSC DVD-Video and replace the cinavia marked audio with that? I would do it myself, but I live in Europe, and all DVDs here are 25p, so synchronizing the audio with the 24p bluray image will be hard. But why can't someone from the NTSC part of the world do it?
Please answer...

[rotty]

I think people have taken the 23.976 f rate audio from DVD and done this. Also the film version would have to be exactly the same to keep audio in sync throught.
I suppose this only has limited time before the watermark(s) are introduced in DVD audio, even if it is just to stop BD backup.

As im sure you know, it is not the real answer.

[Ghitulescu]

And they could use different cuts, so the audio won't fit anylonger.

[Kerry56]

...I suppose this only has limited time before the watermark(s) are introduced in DVD audio, even if it is just to stop BD backup.

Takers R1 DVD has already come out with Cinavia. http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885&page=48

[SamuriHL]

Takers R1 DVD has already come out with Cinavia. http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885&page=48

I know that's been said, but, here's a question for anyone who has that disc and has a PS3 or other Cinavia supporting player...If you make a backup of the DVD, let's say with AnyDVD or whatever, burn it to a blank DVD, and attempt to play it, is Cinavia detected? I'm not talking about remastering it. I'm talking about simply removing any protection on the disc and making a full out copy with menus, trailers, and all. So basically (assuming no structural protection which is probably unlikely since most discs use it these days, but, for the sake of argument..) a DVD backup with CSS removed....does the PS3 or another player then bring up a Cinavia message and mute the audio as it does on the BD's that have Cinavia?

[setarip_old]

does the PS3 or another player then bring up a Cinavia message and mute the audio as it does on the BD's that have Cinavia?That's a very disconcerting possibility, as I believe it wouldn't take significant modification for the Cinavia "package" to check for CSS rather than AACS. If the AACS-LA licensee studios who are also DVDFLLC licensees "buy into it", it could appear on virtually all commercial disc-based movie media.

Of course, depending on the Cinavia-related fixes that, in the near future, result from the recent "irreversible" hack of the PS3, this may or may not prove to be a significant problem.

On the other hand, please note that in this ongoing "cat and mouse game", the Cinavia folks have now been REQUIRED to enhance/modify its payload in response to this community's effort.

[SamuriHL]

That's a very disconcerting possibility, as I believe it wouldn't take significant modification for the Cinavia "package" to check for CSS rather than AACS. If the AACS-LA member studios "buy into it", it could appear on virtually all commercial disc-based movie media.

Of course, depending on the Cinavia-related fixes that, in the near future, result from the recent "irreversible" hack of the PS3, this may or may not prove to be a significant problem.

On the other hand, please note that in this ongoing "cat and mouse game", the Cinavia folks have now been REQUIRED to enhance/modify its payload in response to this community's effort.

Yea, I wasn't trying to get into the whole cat and mouse discussion, as we know how that's going to go. My curiosity surrounds whether or not a backup trips it. The reason I ask is that when I took The Losers DTS-HD MA track, converted it to standard DTS, and added it to the _DVD_ version, it DID trip it, but, that may be because it was looking for AACS, not CSS. So, I'm really interested in how a commercial DVD with Cinavia behaves.

[setarip_old]

I believe the official release date for "The Takers" is this coming Tuesday...

[kurkosdr]

Takers R1 DVD has already come out with Cinavia. http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=41885&page=48
We 're screwed. Once word gets out in hollywood that cinavia does pose a speedbump to the 'pirates', most DVDs would come with it, and new dvd players would be required to have cinavia detection and be firmware upgradeable (so cinavia can be changed). So, even if we manage to get rid of the current version, a new one will appear that will trigger new players made afterwards and players with upgraded firmwares.
If you thing i am exaggerating, let me remind you that this is from the same people who brought us HDCP, protected video path and intel drm.

I see only one solution: Class action lawsuit. You can't advertise "DivxHD playback", "Bluray playback", "Divx playback" and then selectively block some discs from playing. It's false advertising. After all, back ups are still legal, if you do them in a foreign country were anti circumvention doesnt apply and bring the back ups home. If the guys who sued comcast won, then this case can be won too.

If this fails, then our playback devices will be split into the free ones (VLC, Boxee Box, standalone media players without an optical drive) and the non free ones (practically all new dvd/bluray players)

[SamuriHL]

I believe the official release date for "The Takers" is this coming Tuesday...

Ah, yes, you're correct. With all the reports out there I thought it was out already. My mistake. I guess we'll find out this week the info I'm inquiring about.