"Cinavia"/Verance BluRay audio watermark protection [Archive] - Page 27

Ghitulescu

3rd January 2012, 13:27

EVERY and I really mean EVERY BDplayer knows the type of the disc inside irrespective of the tricks used (like booksetting) so BDMV-REC can be easily circumvented: recordable disc + cinavied track =-> illegal copy =-> audio mute + and message 1 or 3, depending on the source of the material. Until then, enjoy this solution. It's the only available one.

PS: every single optical recordable medium was designed NOT to support encryption of any kind. Encryption can only be made at replication factories. It's much simpler (and extremely effective) to control a few thousand sites than millions of CD/DVD/BD-writer/recorder owners (AKA damn pirates :) ).

setarip_old

3rd January 2012, 18:38

@jpsdr

Hi! This is specific to DVDFab apparently...Thanks, but, unless i've understood things wrong, this is useless for me.If DVDFab works as advertised to create playable "BDMV-REC" discs, why would it be useless for you?

k-c-ksum

3rd January 2012, 21:27

cinavia implementation on PC software may well be its down fall, anydvd/dvdfab coders will be able to see just how it ticks

diogen

3rd January 2012, 21:56

Verance's SDMI watermarking was defeated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Felten#SDMI_lawsuits)ones.
http://www.usenix.org/events/sec01/craver.pdf

I don't think it has improved much since, ~10 years ago.
Therefore, will be defeated again as soon as it moves from annoyance to a threat.

Diogen.

Ghitulescu

14th January 2012, 18:39

No, the algorithm was shown to have flaws.
The SDMI was not defeated, read the article carefuly, you'll notice they have access to the original samples, a luxury the hackers of BD-cinavia do not have.
The only solution to cinavia is to find a player that plays copies disregarding cinavia and be sure you'll never connect it to the internet or upgrade it yourself.

Ghitulescu

7th February 2012, 10:04

An interesting bit of information hereAs a bonus: Cinavia does not survive in DTS sound...:)

Diogen.
Google says however that this works on PS3 only - so this sounds more like a defective/incomplete implementation than a solution.

SamuriHL

7th February 2012, 13:53

An interesting bit of information here
Google says however that this works on PS3 only - so this sounds more like a defective/incomplete implementation than a solution.

This is highly inaccurate information. When I did my testing I created a dts core track and muxed it into a DVD. Cinavia was detected just fine on my ps3.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

Ghitulescu

7th February 2012, 15:21

In bitstream or decoded?
I assume the audio must be decoded in order to detect cinavia - anyway, decoding audio is a requirement of BD specs.

I don't have a PS3, the information I posted are from diogen, see the original topic, and from google (a few fora for PS3). It was not my intention to misinform people, just to bring forward something interesting.

derbeDeus

7th February 2012, 19:30

Cinavia is not detected on PS3 in Music mode. ie. any track with Cinavia will play fine. But that's something they didnt bother to do. In any other mode, BD, DVD, video file, dlna, it will detect cinavia and will act on it if it's not a trusted source (only BD and DVD can be, not sure about video file, maybe some cprm on sd or smth will do, but any discussion would be purely theoretical :) ).

SamuriHL

7th February 2012, 20:57

I believe when I was testing I tried both bitstreaming and decoding and it detected it both ways. Again, that's on a DVD that I remastered with the core DTS track from a Cinavia enabled blu-ray. AFAIK, all "loopholes" in the PS3 detection have been corrected by now in the latest firmware updates.

@Ghitulescu - my comment wasn't in reference to you posting the information. Simply the information itself was not correct. :)

diogen

7th February 2012, 21:29

When I did my testing I created a dts core track and muxed it into a DVD. Cinavia was detected just fine on my ps3.According to the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia) this doesn't apply to bitstreamed DTS sound.

That (and the linked SDMI article above) seems to indicate that the Cinavia test runs against the waveform, i.e. decoded sound.

Since DD isn't listed in the exception list, there must be more to it than just bitstreaming to fool the Cinavia test...

I still believe Cinavia is a very remote threat to existing media distribution, e.g. bypassing it.
It is more of a test run for future tech like UltraViolet...

Diogen.

SamuriHL

7th February 2012, 21:32

According to the wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinavia) this doesn't apply to bitstreamed DTS sound.

That (and the linked SDMI article above) seems to indicate that the Cinavia test runs against the waveform, i.e. decoded sound.

Since DD isn't listed in the exception list, there must be more to it than just bitstreaming to fool the Cinavia test...

I still believe Cinavia is a very remote threat to existing media distribution, e.g. bypassing it.
It is more of a test run for future tech like UltraViolet...

Diogen.

Maybe this weekend I'll whip up another copy of the DVD and try it again. From what I understand, Cinavia enabled players are required to decode the audio to check for Cinavia whether they're bitstreaming or not. Clearly the PS3 has the ability to do that, so, if bitstreaming the DTS track bypasses Cinavia, it's a bug. And I do believe they've fixed all such issues at this point. But testing will show us for sure.

Andy o

7th February 2012, 21:59

Haven't we gone through this claim before? Look at the citation for that claim at the Wikipedia page!

diogen

7th February 2012, 22:06

From what I understand, Cinavia enabled players are required to decode the audio to check for Cinavia whether they're bitstreaming or not.That might explain why this tech was missing in the first gen players: they might not have the required amount of spare horsepower to do that.
All BD players should be able to decode. But a DTS-HD MA soundtrack isn't mandatory despite becoming more common in today's releases...

Based on this write-up, Cinavia is more than just a flag to play or not to play the audio.
It suppose (at least in theory) to have many more possible meanings, hence it's more than just one bit of information.

But maybe the DVD/BD implemented only its "binary" function...

Diogen.

SamuriHL

7th February 2012, 22:14

Uhhhh, I don't quite know how to respond to that to all of that. First, I'm very :confused: by the "But a DTS-HD MA soundtrack isn't mandatory" comment. It's part of the blu-ray spec. Are you simply saying that not all discs are required to have DTS-HD MA tracks? That's true. But all licensed blu-ray players are required to be able to play them if the discs do have one. To the point about first gen players, yes, it's generally accepted that they don't have the horsepower to both bitstream and decode a track at the same time...which is a requirement for Cinavia detection. I'm also :confused: by the last part of your post. Cinavia isn't an overly complicated algorithm. Regardless of whether the user is having the player decode or bitstream the audio during playback, the player decodes the audio track, checks for the Cinavia signal, and if found validates that it's a trusted source. If it's not, the Cinavia signal tells the player what to do about it...i.e. pop up a message after 20 minutes and mute the audio for message 3 signals, or pop up a message and immediately stop playback entirely on message 1 signals. That's really all there is to it.

diogen

7th February 2012, 23:43

Are you simply saying that not all discs are required to have DTS-HD MA tracks?Yes. But all licensed blu-ray players are required to be able to play them if the discs do have one.No.
If it's not mandatory, the player doesn't have to play it. Just like DTS on DVD.

Based on how DTS-HD MA is assembled, you can have the track and play DTS core only.
Cinavia isn't an overly complicated algorithm.It would be better to claim it is not an algorithm set in stone.
If it's not, the Cinavia signal tells the player what to do about it.Yes, it does.
Like I said, at least in theory. Read this (http://www.cinavia.com/languages/english/pages/technology.html).

Diogen.

SamuriHL

8th February 2012, 00:17

The PLAYER must support DTS-HD MA as it's part of the blu-ray spec and is mandatory. As is TrueHD and obviously LPCM. So I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say with that one. And I never said the Cinavia algorithm was set in stone. :) In fact, I've repeatedly said quite the opposite. I believe wholeheartedly based on the patents that it has the ability to adapt to any successful attack. Much like what they do with BD+. They can add new message types, add varying signals for the existing message types, and even have different signals for message 3 that vary the length the player gives for a grace period. It's a rather nasty little sucker. :)

diogen

8th February 2012, 00:42

The PLAYER must support DTS-HD MA as it's part of the blu-ray spec and is mandatory.No. Read this ([/QUOTE]).
So I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say with that one.Never mind.

Diogen.

SamuriHL

8th February 2012, 00:43

No. Read this ().
Never mind.

Diogen.[/QUOTE]

http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_audio_codecs

Just so we're clear. :)

diogen

8th February 2012, 00:45

Learn the distinction between mandatory and optional.

Diogen.

EDIT:
In case you don't know that either: the site you link to is private, nothing to do with BD LA.

SamuriHL

8th February 2012, 00:46

Learn the distinction between mandatory and optional.

Diogen.

Excuse me?

Please note that this simply means that Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these audio codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which audio codec(s) they use for their releases.

Please learn to read before berating someone. You do NOT have your facts straight!!

diogen

8th February 2012, 00:58

Please learn to read before berating someone.
You do NOT have your facts straight!!Please keep your advice to yourself.

You have no clue what the word "fact" means!

For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital (AC-3), DTS, and linear PCM. Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio as well as lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.[101] BD-ROM titles must use one of the mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack. A secondary audiotrack, if present, may use any of the mandatory or optional codecs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

Diogen.

SamuriHL

8th February 2012, 01:03

Ok, whatever. I certainly am not going to argue about this with you. Believe what you will.

Andy o

8th February 2012, 02:23

duudes chill. Diogen, look at the source (http://www.twice.com/article/246434-1st_HD_DVD_Players_To_Decode_All_Mandatory_Optional_Audio_Codecs.php) of that claim. These Cinavia and blu-ray entries are either outdated or just plain lazy. The source for the "DTS doesn't trigger Cinavia on the PS3" claim is so absurd.

hello_hello

8th February 2012, 04:18

Neither are mandatory in a player according to Wikipedia.

DTS-HD Master Audio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTS-HD_Master_Audio)
DTS-HD Master Audio is a lossless audio codec created by Digital Theater System. It was previously known as DTS++.[1] It is an extension of DTS which, when played back on devices which do not support the Master Audio or High Resolution extension, degrades to a "core" track which is lossy. DTS-HD Master Audio is an optional audio format for Blu-ray Disc format exclusively. DTS-HD Master Audio has been steadily becoming the standard for Blu-ray lossless audio format.

Dolby TrueHD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_TrueHD#Blu-ray_Disc)
In the Blu-ray specification, Dolby TrueHD is an optional codec.

hello_hello

8th February 2012, 04:22

SamuriHL, you might want to take another look at your own link.
http://www.blu-ray.com/faq/#bluray_audio_codecs

Dolby TrueHD - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio - extension of DTS, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)
DTS-HD Master Audio - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)

SamuriHL

8th February 2012, 04:30

For all those blu-ray players out there that only support LPCM, DD, and DTS core, right? :rolleyes:

(You didn't even read what you wrote, did you? ENCODING is not done by a player ;) They're talking about what's mandatory and optional for studios that master discs, not what the player has to support for decoding)

hello_hello

8th February 2012, 06:32

For all those blu-ray players out there that only support LPCM, DD, and DTS core, right?

Now you're getting it. ;)
The fact that most players support more than just those three audio types doesn't make the rest of them mandatory.

(You didn't even read what you wrote, did you? ENCODING is not done by a player ;) They're talking about what's mandatory and optional for studios that master discs, not what the player has to support for decoding)

I read what I wrote, only I'm not the one misinterpreting it.
Your list shows which audio formats Bluray supports, which are mandatory in a player and which are optional.

Linear PCM (LPCM) - up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio. (mandatory)

So either you're wrong, and it means LPCM support is mandatory in a player, or you're correct and it means every Bluray discs includes an LPCM audio stream. Do you really think it's the latter?
According to your interpretation, every disc must include Linear PCM, Dolby Digitial, and DTS audio streams. Do you really believe every disc includes all three?

The same three audio formats listed as mandatory in a player below are also the only three marked as being mandatory in the list you linked to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#Audio
For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital (AC-3), DTS, and linear PCM. Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio as well as lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. BD-ROM titles must use one of the mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack . A secondary audiotrack, if present, may use any of the mandatory or optional codecs.

Andy o

8th February 2012, 06:43

SamuriHL

8th February 2012, 06:44

Yea OK...show me one of these supposed players that only supports DD/dts/lpcm then I'll believe it. It certainly won't be a profile 1.1 or higher device. For the topic at hand, which I'll remind you is cinavia, I'm positive you aren't going to show me a cinavia enabled player that doesn't support dts-hd ma and truehd decoding. You do get that blu-ray as a spec wasn't finished in the beginning right? That it has gone through several iterations as a spec?

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

SamuriHL

8th February 2012, 06:47

Ooh, I thought I didn't post that last post of mine. I was writing it and didn't finish and then forgot about it. The PS3 famously didn't support DTS-HD MA at all when it came out, right? I thought with a profile update DTS-HD decoding might have become mandatory for players, but I can't find info about that.

Correct. But we seem to want to ignore the fact that the blu-ray spec has "evolved" and that cinavia isn't going to end up on a profile 1.0 device. But hey they can continue arguing amongst themselves about it. I'm done discussing it further as it is completely off topic.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk

jpsdr

8th February 2012, 10:24

Just to add some information : There is license issue. Supporting DTSHD-MA for exemple, will cost more to manufacturer, because it's a license it has to pay, for each device sold. So, if you search very cheap players, maybe you'll find devices wich not support DTSHD-MA and/or TrueHD. If you want to sell a Blu-Ray player, you must, at least, support AC3/DTS/LPCM (and others mandatory), but after, if you want, you can pay more license fees and support others format. If you want to sell a Blu-Ray, you're not obliged to put all the audio mandatory for players, but at least one.
Now, the true point : What support truly means ?
The following is what i think, from some little information i've glanced being a beta tester from an HW media player, and having seen a little history of license problem, but it needs to be verified.
Support i think means decoding ALL channels of the HD audio track, and output them in either LPCM by HDMI/SPIF, or by analog output (cinch) you have sometimes avaible on back of players. This allow you do send the HD audio track to a receiver wich doesn't decode the specific format.
Not supporting means you can't do the above, but, i think, the player still can bitstream by HDMI (i don't know for TrueHD, bit i've read that DTSHD-MA can only be bitstreamed on HDMI, not SPIF, because of bandwith) the HD audio track not decoded, to be send to a receiver wich supports it.

hello_hello

8th February 2012, 13:21

Yea OK...show me one of these supposed players that only supports DD/dts/lpcm then I'll believe it.

Nobody said there's ever been a player which supports only the mandatory codecs. Maybe there has, maybe there hasn't, but obviously the distinction between "mandatory" and "supported" is one which eludes you.

For the topic at hand, which I'll remind you is cinavia, I'm positive you aren't going to show me a cinavia enabled player that doesn't support dts-hd ma and truehd decoding.

Same problem again. An inability to make the distinction between "mandatory" and "supported".
While you're reminding me of the topic while continuing to debate the same off-topic subject, I'll point out you pretty much proved yourself to be wrong by default when you ignored the questions you were asked.

You do get that blu-ray as a spec wasn't finished in the beginning right? That it has gone through several iterations as a spec?

I also get you've shown nothing which proves codecs which were originally optional are now mandatory. Can you provide a link to the updated Bluray specs to contradict all the pesky evidence you've chosen to ignore so far? I doubt it.

diogen

8th February 2012, 15:39

There is license issue.DTS as a company had few licensing issues. Aside from (reportedly) being expensive, it isn't just their fault.
The hidef players - HD DVD and BD - were initially envisioned to support only LPCM output.
And if you want to watch the movie with the director comment overlaid, you don't really have any other options:
you can't mix together two DTS/DD soundtracks unless decoded first.

So, DTS (the company) didn't have a licensing program for AVR makers.
This was the reason AVRs were really late in supporting the new batch of DTS codecs.

Also, Sigma had problems to license DTS-HD for their non-DRM chips used in PCH, WD-TV and other media players.
That made the first generation of these players support only bitstreaming of the DTS codecs.

...i don't know for TrueHD, bit i've read that DTSHD-MA can only be bitstreamed on HDMI, not SPIF, because of bandwith) the HD audio track not decoded, to be send to a receiver wich supports it.Not because of bandwidth.
The optical cable could carry ten times the DTS-MA bandwidth without problems.
But the standard abiding silicon on the ends of the SPDIF cable cannot. Hence, only DVD-grade DD and DTS can be passed over SPDIF.

The latest Thunderbolt (http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2011/06/why-apples-2m-thunderbolt-cable-costs-a-whopping-50.ars)standard is trying to address this issue: if you buy a better cable you will get faster transfer.

Diogen.

Guest

8th February 2012, 22:13

Guys, this is all off topic for this thread now. Please take this discussion to a new thread.

SamuriHL

9th February 2012, 21:41

From the DVD Fab forum:

The DVDFab developers have asked me to make all users aware of the folllowing:

Installing PS3 firmware v4.10 or greater will cause the Cinavia workaround to no longer be effective with BDMV-REC discs produced by DVDFab.

The discs will still be playable, but Cinavia will be activated as with a normal backup disc. This firmware (thanks SONY!) causes the BDMV-REC discs to not be seen as a "trusted source" and thus become ineffective.

Work on a removal-type solution continues.

http://forum.dvdfab.com/showpost.php?p=109873&postcount=436

Ghitulescu

9th February 2012, 22:00

It doesn't matter what kind of circumvetion those of dvdfab/anydvd will come - DISC_TYPE=Recordable + cinavia means it's a copy. End of story. Even if is your video, if by accident you recorded cinavia sound (wedding, party etc.) it will still trigger cinavia because you don't have the right to use the music.
I've said this long time ago.

SamuriHL

9th February 2012, 22:01

As have I. Now the point has been made quite clearly by Sony. :)

rotty

9th February 2012, 23:12

diogen

10th February 2012, 04:52

Reports that the final AACS will have audio watermarking technology go back 4 years
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?p=89041#post89041

No prophetical talents required...

Diogen.

Andy o

10th February 2012, 05:00

That's not what they were talking about, but it was indeed obvious that Sony was gonna plug that hole.

diogen

11th February 2012, 17:27

That's not what they were talking about...Who are "they"?
Posters above or reports 4 years ago?

From my forum experience there is a very strong inverse correlation between the "I told you so!" and "Fact!" posts and IQ of the posters...

Diogen.

Ghitulescu

11th February 2012, 18:24

No prophetical talents required...

The reason the industry pushed the "digital" technology was simple and I've said it some 15 years ago to some colleagues, it's the copy protection. One cannot protect the analog the very same way (advantages and disadvantages) as the digital.

Since the technology needs to be adopted, "they" must let it more or less free, at the beginning, only to close all the "holes" later. The least obvious to many is the closing of the analog loop hole this year.

I remember the outcry of several years in USA concerning the infamous broadcast flag. People start complaining only at the "run time", despite no changes in the ATSC standard has been committed since its initial draft: why did they not comment when the specs have been drafted? "Future implementation" :) the future is now ;)

Step-by-step, the digital locks will prevent anything the content provders don't like (and probably, as the DAT/CDR examples have shown, will lock many legal rights down as well, for the manufacturer fears more the studios than the stupid consumer that will buy anyway the product provided the price is low enough).

Cinavia only needed to pass the legal requirements, not the technical ones - the latter were laid out since the very first draft of the BD.

rotty

11th February 2012, 19:16

I Have just read the Wiki list re Cinavia infected disks. they say that:

"As of 2012, only Sony Pictures releases have implemented Cinavia DRM"

Well this is the only time, now and only now that we can send the best message we can, dont buy Sony Pictures releases with Cinavia.

This will of course send a message to ALL studios/distributors.

Yes yes I know I have said it before.

SamuriHL

11th February 2012, 19:33

Once again proving that wiki information is a bunch of BS. :) Sony is NOT the only one to have implemented Cinavia. In fact, it wasn't even the first! Check out who released The Losers. ;)

setarip_old

11th February 2012, 21:19

@SamuriHL

Hi! Maybe it's time to take a deep breath to reduce your frustration level a bit ;>}

Actually, it just seems to be a case of poor wording in the WikiPedia post. It should have said something like, "Thusfar, all Cinavia-infected Blu-rays released in 2012 have been distributed or otherwise controlled (produced or owned) by SONY and/or its subsidiaries".

Here's the list per WikiPedia - and its unintentionally misleading quote:

2012

1.Anonymous
2.Bucky Larson: Born To Be A Star
3.Carnage
4.Courageous
5.Don't Be Afraid Of The Dark
6.Drive
7.Higher Ground
8.The Ides Of March
9.London Boulevard
10.Midnight in Paris
11.Moneyball
12.Restless
13.Take Shelter
14.The Rum Diary
15.The Skin I Live In
As of 2012, only Sony Pictures releases have implemented Cinavia DRM.
If you know of any 2012 Cinavia-infected releases that are NOT SONY-related, please post that information here.