AMD, Intel and Nvidia driver issues and last recommended version

[NikosD]

for some reason nvidia doesn't like 10 bit as a format it does it but if 12 is possible it is doing 12. I think nVidia likes 10bit for DisplayPort only.
Which is definitely weird and it's not common for SmartTVs


You talk about full range RGB and that you know you need 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 to get 10 or 12 bit at 60 which is YCbCr. Last time I checked there was no YCbCr option.
The control panel offers RGB full or RGB limited.
I'll check it again.

[huhn]

just stick to RGB.

and well displayport devices often doesn't support 12 bit and that's pretty much the only reason.

[NikosD]

12 bit color depth support is simply non existent natively in almost all HDTVs and extremely rare in all types of monitors in general.

Also, 12 bit color needs more bandwidth.

The decision of nVidia is weird and there is no reason to defend it.

[huhn]

i'm not defending it...

and 12 bit is pretty much mandatory for TV if the TV would only support 10 bit or if 10 bit would be possible with the bandwidth but not 12 nvidia can do 10 that's why UHD 60 HZ 4.2:2 10 bit exists 12 is not possible with the pathetic HDMI spec.

is it dumb to remove the option to send less sure...
12 bit would be better in theory and mathematically but not in practise.

[NikosD]

It is surely weird and possibly wrong to support 8bit, to skip 10bit and to support 12bit again.

Weird for sure.

HDMI v2.1 supports everything with huge bandwidth but it's still so rare.

[Cowboydude99]

Am I the only person that has really terrible 23fps/24fps with NVIDIA cards?

I'm on GTX 1080. When playing any 1080p/24fps video in any player, it is like a fast slideshow. It's stop-go-stop-go. Very annoying.

I'm using a projector, so no motion interpolation from the display device.

All drivers seem to be the same.

If I play a 4k/60 file (Billy Lynn's Long whatever) it plays just fine and smooth.

[huhn]

screen of the OSD ?

you had ffdshow installed so you doing quite some harmful things.

[Cowboydude99]

Hi again. Thanks for the response. I'm not sure what is going on, even if I just use KODI 's defaults, it's still choppy.

Here's the screenshot of my madvr OSD:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jDuWhzBVSBk5vjWvQlS5fB0FkQbaL0nW

[huhn]

i don't know why you are using DXVA2 but there seems to be an issue with it on your system.

[NikosD]

I think nVidia likes 10bit for DisplayPort only.
Which is definitely weird and it's not common for SmartTVs

Last time I checked there was no YCbCr option.
The control panel offers RGB full or RGB limited.
I'll check it again. Using a custom resolution 1080p@144 Hz created in nVidia's Control Panel, not exposed initially by the display, I get very limited options for configuration.

Just RGB - 8bit color - Full (0-255) or Limited (16-235) dynamic range - HDR on/off

But using a native resolution like 3840x2160 I get:

60Hz - RGB - 8bit (only) - Full or Limited - HDR on/off

60Hz - YCbCr420 - 8bit (only) - Limited (only) - HDR off (only)

60Hz - YCbCr422 - 8bit - Limited (only) - HDR off (only)
60Hz - YCbCr422 - 10bit/12bit - Limited (only) - HDR on/off

60Hz - YCbCr444 - 8bit - Limited (only) - HDR on/off
30Hz - YCbCr444 - 12bit - Limited (only) - HDR on/off

So the only configuration for 4K@60Hz using HDR and 10bit color is YCbCr422, with only a minor limitation of Limited dynamic range.

@huhn
What would you prefer/ is "better" ?

A) 60Hz - RGB - 8bit - Full - HDR on
B) 60Hz - YCbCr422 - 10bit - Limited - HDR on
C) 60Hz - YCbCr444 - 8bit - Limited - HDR on

A or B or C ?

[WuNgUn]

This is a GOOD question... I've wondered this as well.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

[Asmodian]

A) 60Hz - RGB - 8bit - Full - HDR on

[el Filou]

Here's the screenshot of my madvr OSD:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jDuWhzBVSBk5vjWvQlS5fB0FkQbaL0nWYour decoding queue can't keep up and it looks like it's impacting rendering queue.
Are you using DXVA copyback? If you're not using black bar detection and never watch interlaced material, you can try setting the decoder mode to D3D11 Native and see if it helps.

Also, you're playing a 23,976 fps file with a 24,000 Hz display refresh, so you're gonna have a dropped frame every 30 seconds or so at best even if everything else is perfect.

Edit: and I don't see the point of using madVR on a GTX 1080 if you're gonna use DXVA processing instead of some higher quality algos, tbh.

[NikosD]

A) 60Hz - RGB - 8bit - Full - HDR on One interesting comment I read in one from the infinite discussions around this matter:

Only use RGB 8-bit for everything on a PC, including HDR games and movies, even when connected to a HDR TV over HDMI.
The GPU does dithering for 10-bit content and there will be no banding.

A 10-bit signal to the display is only required when the source doesn't perform dithering (PS4 , Blu-ray player, etc.).
If the PS4 did dithering, it could run RGB 8-bit 60 Hz instead of subsampling at YCbCr420 10-bit 60 Hz because there isn't enough bandwidth for RGB 10-bit 60 Hz over HDMI 2.0.

If the display is 8-bit + FRC, the 10-bit signal is dithered internally by the display anyway.
A true 10-bit panel is pointless since the quantization noise on 8-bit + dithering is invisible.

On Windows, HDR apps render to a 10-bit surface and the GPU does dithering automatically if the signal is 8-bit.
So you should just use 8-bit RGB for maximum quality.

You can verify this with the banding test in the VESA DisplayHDR app in the Windows Store.For 8bit panels it is obvious that Full RGB 8bit 4K@60Hz is the best option.

The only debate is around HDR content (games, videos) using a true 10bit HDR panel at 4K@60Hz on Windows PC.

[huhn]

if you know how a computer works it's still C.

[NikosD]

Asmodian said A) you said C) and knowing how computers work I would say B)

The whole thing is a matter of compromises and implementations.

Windows HDR model has gone through a lot of changes lately, who knows the exact situation of this.

OEM drivers of GPUs are not the best components to trust, they have so many bugs and break things occasionally that used to work.

I choose 10bit native color even with 4:2:2 over any other solution.

Although in reality, I'm not sure that the difference is easy to tell.

[huhn]

ohh yeah sure A.

subsampling is very easy to tell.

[Asmodian]

I really don't understand this preference for subsampling, subsampling to 4:2:2 is an ancient compression scheme that drops 1/3 of the video data in a fairly inefficient way in order to lower bandwidth requirements. madVr dithers quite well so 8 bit and 10 bit end up visually identical while 4:2:2 is visually worse.

If you know how computers work and what the various formats are why would you choose subsampling?! If you don't trust your GPU to handle bit depths properly I would suspect the 10 bit paths a lot more than the 8 bit ones. Also, why do you trust the drivers to resample both chroma planes to 50% horizontal resolution while keeping proper 10 bit?

A and C are very similar, while B is obviously worse. A is the only option that does not rely on the GPU driver doing something correctly.

Edit: All the HDR Games I have played dithered as well, 8 bit at 30 Hz is indistinguishable from 10 bit at 30 Hz (30 Hz only for the comparison). HDR with low latency and 444 chroma is poor quality on my TV though so I don't do much HDR gaming. If your display is subsampling internally B is fine, but not actually better.

[tyguy]

I really don't understand this preference for subsampling, subsampling to 4:2:2 is an ancient compression scheme that drops 1/3 of the video data in a fairly inefficient way in order to lower bandwidth requirements. madVr dithers quite well so 8 bit and 10 bit end up visually identical while 4:2:2 is visually worse.

If you know how computers work and what the various formats are why would you choose subsampling?! If you don't trust your GPU to handle bit depths properly I would suspect the 10 bit paths a lot more than the 8 bit ones. Also, why do you trust the drivers to resample both chroma planes to 50% horizontal resolution while keeping proper 10 bit?

A and C are very similar, while B is obviously worse. A is the only option that does not rely on the GPU driver doing something correctly.
Are you using pc input label for everything sdr but switch to a different label like generic hdmi or game console for hdr content with your c9? Id love to get full chroma 100 percent of the time, but hdr is just horrible in pc mode. Grays are banded, clouds look like oil floating in water in dark scenes. Also, I thought you used ycbcr 444 with your setup?

[Asmodian]

Well, this was a response to a general "what is better" question. If asked what is better on a LG C9 in HDR mode it changes due to faults of the C9.

I use C) YCbCr 444 limited, 8 bit, 60 Hz, Nvidia HDR On with this TV. I do change the label of the HDMI port to Home Theater when I watch HDR content but I keep the same output format. This of course subsamples in the TV but it seems to do a decent job. Sending it 10 bit 422 does not look any better, in fact it seems to be slightly worse with more banding because this TV doesn't handle 10 bit (or RGB) input very well. Others disagree, and I only notice subtle differences between all input formats in Home Theater mode, but in PC mode 10 bit and/or RGB is obviously worse. :mad:

This all gets pretty complicated when we bring the failings of individual displays into it. :(

[Klaus1189]

Sorry for interrupting you guys, I created a dedicated thread for issues or failings of individual displays here:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=180421

If you want to post some info there, that would be very nice.

I want to collect as much info as possible, so it is easier for us all to find better tvs in the future

I summarize the info in the first post. It is almost ridiculous of how many issues modern TVs can have.

Please go on, very informative here ;)

[tyguy]

Well, this was a response to a general "what is better" question. If asked what is better on a LG C9 in HDR mode it changes due to faults of the C9.

I use C) YCbCr 444 limited, 8 bit, 60 Hz, Nvidia HDR On with this TV. I do change the label of the HDMI port to Home Theater when I watch HDR content but I keep the same output format. This of course subsamples in the TV but it seems to do a decent job. Sending it 10 bit 422 does not look any better, in fact it seems to be slightly worse with more banding because this TV doesn't handle 10 bit (or RGB) input very well. Others disagree, and I only notice subtle differences between all input formats in Home Theater mode, but in PC mode 10 bit and/or RGB is obviously worse. :mad:

This all gets pretty complicated when we bring the failings of individual displays into it. :(
Do you use pc mode for sdr pc games and sdr movies?

[Asmodian]

Absolutely, I really hate subsampling.

[tyguy]

Absolutely, I really hate subsampling.
I'm wondering if the harmony remote can be programmed to change input labels. that way we only have to press 1 button instead of long pressing input button, click on edit, then click on input, scroll down to pc, apply it, and then click in the window.

[NikosD]

@moderators

Maybe the last few posts, from my question and later, could be moved to the dedicated thread regarding TVs.

And this one too.

Regarding the issue of 4K@60Hz using 10bit with HDR on, it's a corner case that happens more frequently nowadays due to the capability of many UHD TVs , implementing that configuration but on HDMI which is incapable of transferring the data.

But the issue can be more frequent in cases that RGB is not offered in all its glory for some reason (full, 10bit, HDR, high resolution, high refresh rate) and you have to compromise between RGB and some form of subsampling.

In any case I have said in the past that I don't have such good eyes distinguishing slight differences, so I can be happy in almost all cases.

But the debate is useful to know which is better in theory and in practice to check what is better in your specific configuration.

[huhn]

you wouldn't believe how much this topic has been tested and discussed on this forum.

welcome to the world of TV insanity have a small taste:
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=180421&page=2

[NikosD]

Yes, that thread I meant of Klaus1189 if it wasn't clear in my previous post.

[x7007]

Which latest nv driver works with HDR MadVR because 445.75 doesn't work. the last one worked was 442.5x or something but it has other weird issues.

[Klaus1189]

Try latest Studio driver 442.19

[VBB]

445.75 HDR works just fine. The only issue is that it exits HDR mode when you trigger a player UI, but it goes right back after. Note that this happens only if you use 10-bit or higher output in the Nvidia control panel. I will try 445.87 tonight, but I doubt this is fixed.

[VBB]

Just installed the latest Nvidia 445.87 driver. As predicted, the UI issue has not been fixed. It still switches out of 10-bit/12-bit full-screen windowed and into 8-bit windowed mode in both HDR and SDR once you pull up a player menu or status bar. This is obvious in HDR, because it also switches the display out of HDR at the same time. Again, this doesn't really break any functionality, and once the UI disappears, the player goes right back to the original mode.

[NikosD]

@VBB
Yes, I have exactly the same problem and I also realized it better when switching from SDR to HDR and then back to SDR.

[lazostat]

So which is so far the most stable nvidia driver?

[ryrynz]

They're pretty much all stable. Just use the latest one.

[Cowboydude99]

Hi all.
What is the recommended NVIDIA driver for Windows 10 with 10b HDR, running 4K/60? I am also a JVC projector owner...

Lots of weird issues with this set up.
Sometimes after stopping HDR, the screen just stays black, other times it is a green tint with tons of random lines/noise running in it. Happens on multiple HDMI cables.

Is the studio driver the way to go? What about if you also game sometimes?

[huhn]

just try the current one with 8 bit RGB

[Klaus1189]

What driver are you using at the moment?
With Nvidia you won‘t get 10 bit HDR, but that is really no dealbreaker, just use RGB 8 bit 3840x2160 and you should be fine, at least if there is no issue with this JVC projector.

You won‘t recognize the difference between 8 bit and 10 bit.

It depends on the games, if you want to game a very new one and the driver crashes or has issues with it you will have to use the newest which is designed to fix the issue with that specific game. Older games are normally fine.

Try latest studio driver from yesterday, do you have any issue with it? It is the best tested driver branch for now.

[Manni]

Hi all.
What is the recommended NVIDIA driver for Windows 10 with 10b HDR, running 4K/60? I am also a JVC projector owner...

Lots of weird issues with this set up.
Sometimes after stopping HDR, the screen just stays black, other times it is a green tint with tons of random lines/noise running in it. Happens on multiple HDMI cables.

Is the studio driver the way to go? What about if you also game sometimes?

If you're a JVC owner, don't use 10bits, especially if you do games or desktop work. If you send anything above 8bits in 4K 4:4:4 (whether RGB or YCC), JVC does an internal downconversion to YCC 4:2:2 behind madVR's back that damages chroma. Sending 12bits 422 is a workaround that prevents you from making the most of madVR's chroma upscaling, so leads to a worse picture than 8bits 4:4:4, especially when upscaling 1080p and lower res to 4K.

This is on all models, including the latest 4K (I have an RS2000). When I reported this to JVC, instead of fixing it they made all options in the colorspace menu (including RGB and YCC444) send YCC422. That way it's not obvious anymore (before it was breaking the picture), but there is probably an internal limitation that prevents them from accepting 4K 12bits 4:4:4 even when there it fits the 18Gb/s bandwidth limitation, for example at 30p and below.

Use 8bits, it works at all resolutions / frame rates and it doesn't cause any banding (provided madVR dithering isn't disabled) even with 10bits HDR.

There are too many issues in 12bits with the nVidia drivers: black levels mismatch, colorspace/calibration issues, just forget about it. I use 442.74 in 4K 8bits RGB Full, MadVR set to 16-235 and the JVC set to HDMI standard, it works fine. If you need gaming/desktop, you can set madVR to 0-255 and the JVC to HDMI Enhanced. I use a CRU custom resolution and I get no frame drops for a day or more.

You won't be able to see any difference PQ-wise if you use 8bits. You might see a very slight increase in noise level near black if you stick your nose to the screen, but no added banding. It will just work. :)

[Cowboydude99]

I have sorted the issue.

I had ticked ‘Report BT.2020’ under my calibration settings in Mad VR for BT.709. Once I unticked this, the magenta issue was gone.

Your post from 1 year ago really saved me from going down a new projector rabbit hole (I was already half way in).

Unticking this box, "Report BT2020 (NVIDIA ONLY)" in MADVR solved 2 issues:

1. Green scrambled screen.
2. Magenta colored display.

I no longer have to change the hz/resolution/color after stopping/starting video.

As of now I'm getting 4K/60/422 12 bit from my GPU to my PJ.

Smooth motion is helping a lot with the judder!

Thank you all for your help!

[NoTechi]

If you're a JVC owner, don't use 10bits, especially if you do games or desktop work.
.....
You won't be able to see any difference PQ-wise if you use 8bits. You might see a very slight increase in noise level near black if you stick your nose to the screen, but no added banding. It will just work. :)

Thanks Manni for the good explanation, which finally convinced me to use 8bit. :D
At some point I switched from Epson to JVC because I had strong banding with Epson especcialy in games and couldn't use 10/12 bit to try to mitigate it. That made me hesitate to switch to 8bit voluntarily until now since the JVC being "capable" to use 10/12 bit was one major selling point to me.

Just to be on the safe side, I have to select 8bit within the gpu driver and madvr display properties, right?

NoTechi

[huhn]

yes in the driver and madVR.

banding in computer games is pretty normal it just depends on the game.
use a banding test with madVR to make sure it's not the device.

[claw]

Thanks Manni for the good explanation, which finally convinced me to use 8bit. :D
At some point I switched from Epson to JVC because I had strong banding with Epson especcialy in games and couldn't use 10/12 bit to try to mitigate it. That made me hesitate to switch to 8bit voluntarily until now since the JVC being "capable" to use 10/12 bit was one major selling point to me.

Just to be on the safe side, I have to select 8bit within the gpu driver and madvr display properties, right?

NoTechi

I recently switched from RGB 12-bit to RGB 8-bit as well with a JVC RS500.

I had to disable Report BT2020 in MadVR to avoid the magenta bug in the JVC.

[Manni]

Just to be on the safe side, I have to select 8bit within the gpu driver and madvr display properties, right?

Correct, 8bits in both. Never use Auto for bit depth in madVR, it’s not meant to detect the bitdepth.

[brazen1]

You guys are aware that nVidia drivers are back to retaining 12bit after a reboot right?

[sat4all]

Yeah noticed that too, but forgot to alert the folks over here. :p

[Manni]

You guys are aware that nVidia drivers are back to retaining 12bit after a reboot right?

Unfortunately there is still a mismatch in black levels between sdr and hdr unless you set madVR to send different levels (16-235 in SDR, 0-255 in HDR), which isn’t ideal if the pj is set to video levels.

If anyone knows a correct combo that works with the JVCs, please post.

Of course there is the forced chroma downconversion to YCC 4:2:2 behind madVR’s back in 12bits with the JVCs (and I suspect most displays/projectors), but let’s put that aside.

[mzso]

Hi!

Probably a dumb question, but how do I get my nvidia card (ENGTS450) to produce 4:4:4 with a TV? I see no settings or even what subsampling is used shown anywhere.
But the test image (https://www.rtings.com/images/test-materials/2017/chroma-444.png) I just found looks like crap in the blue rows and the last two, I guess the video signal is sub-sampled.

[huhn]

the issue is usually the display not the graphics card setting.
becaues for so reason it's cool to subsample incoming signal.
PC mode is usually needed and there are a lot of older TV that can't do 4:4:4 at all.

[mzso]

the issue is usually the display not the graphics card setting.
becaues for so reason it's cool to subsample incoming signal.
PC mode is usually needed and there are a lot of older TV that can't do 4:4:4 at all.

I see. Thanks for the tip.
What I found is that if I enable the "1080p Piexl by 4pixels" option I get correct text. Though I'm nut sure why. Up-scaling to UHD can't be this dreadful... Maybe some sort of subsampling is active until I enable this for some reason.

The "1080p Pure Direct" option also fixes the appearance. And looking at it now closely it looks like I get proper up-scaling. (if I enable the former option atop of this I get the more aliased text of native 1080p.)

Anyway. I still have more (possibly) on-topic issues.
Such as I can't figure out why resolutions above FHD appear in the driver's or Windows' settings. The TV is UHD and the card goes up to 1600p.
Hmm. As I'm writing this I notice that only this is specified by the manufacturer: "D-Sub Max Resolution : 2048x1536, DVI Max Resolution : 2560x1600"
Could it be that the HDMI port only goes up to 1080p, and I have to use the DVI with and adapter?

[huhn]

just to tell you in the first place pure direct mode breaks 23/24p output is a panasonic special they do this intentionally with pride.

it's HDMI 1.3a so try a lower refreshrate and it can't do 3d and neither offically UHD (but the bandwidth is the same as 1.4).
scroll down to PC resolutions is may be listed there or try a custom resolution.
DVI -> HDMI shouldn't work on passive it's just sending the same HDMI signal and a active cable would cost more then your GPU.
just get a "new" GPU.