Haali Renderer

[Sirber]

don't think so, didn't have a new release for a while now.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

I plan to make a debug build in a couple of days, maybe we'll see where it waits so long.

Hope this will help to fix the freezing problem...

[Sirber]

it even jam iTunes... :confused:

[mike_lee]

It's not a delay or a freeze, it's buffering data like 10 billion other software apps. If you don't want to use a decoder that buffers that's OK (and I can see why you wouldn't if it takes your PC 15 seconds to buffer 16 megs)

[Haali]

No, buffering doesn't happen until you start playback. And the delay (on a few systems) occurs before that, when the graph is created.

[mike_lee]

I'm sure I posted an apology but I don't see it. So I'm sorry for smarting off LoRd_MuldeR.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

00000000 0.00000000 [3600] ACM DRV_OPEN 11 0019A3C0
00000001 0.00012404 [3600] ACM ACMDM_DRIVER_DETAILS 11 0019A3C0
00000002 0.00015812 [3600] ACM ACMDM_FORMATTAG_DETAILS 11 0019A3C0
00000003 0.00019807 [3600] ACM ACMDM_FORMATTAG_DETAILS 11 0019A3C0
00000004 0.00028104 [3600] ACM ACMDM_DRIVER_ABOUT 11 0019A3C0
00000005 0.00107444 [3600] ACM ACMDM_FORMATTAG_DETAILS 11 0019A3C0
00000006 0.10823023 [3600] ACM DRV_CLOSE 11 0019A3C0
00000007 5.79527950 [3600] REN: CDXR created 02A52220
00000008 6.33728600 [3600] REN: Pause
00000009 6.33743763 [3600] REN: Commit
00000010 6.33747149 [3600] REN: InitAll
00000011 6.37628746 [3600] REN: Commit
00000012 6.37633419 [3600] REN: D3DI 1
00000013 6.39212847 [3600] REN: D3DI 2
00000014 6.39222336 [3600] REN: D3DI 3
00000015 6.39535093 [3600] REN: D3DI 4
00000016 6.39556217 [3600] REN: D3DI 5
00000017 6.40449286 [3600] REN: D3DI 6
00000018 6.40476370 [3600] REN: D3DI 7
00000019 6.40480375 [3600] REN: D3DI 8
00000020 6.40492916 [3600] REN: D3DA 1
00000021 6.40563822 [3600] REN: D3DA 2
00000022 6.40578270 [3600] REN: D3DA 3
00000023 6.40660095 [3600] REN: D3DA 4
00000024 6.40666437 [3600] REN: D3DA 5
00000025 6.40789604 [3600] REN: D3DA 6
00000026 6.40794277 [3600] REN: D3DA 8
00000027 6.41301060 [3600] REN: Allocated 34 buffers
00000028 6.41313028 [3600] REN: D3DA 9
00000029 6.89275026 [3600] REN: MT
00000030 6.89533567 [3600] REN: Present. (NextSample)
00000031 6.90694046 [3600] REN: Run
00000032 6.90735769 [3600] REN: Present. (PaintCur)
00000033 6.90764570 [3600] REN: No image in backbuffer for presentation. (ShowSample)
00000034 6.91077232 [3848] 114307745 has capabilities; 0
00000035 18.33591080 [3600] REN: Present. (PaintCur)
00000036 18.33595276 [3600] REN: Pause
00000037 18.34675789 [3600] REN: Commit
00000038 18.34683609 [3600] REN: InitAll
00000039 18.34687042 [3600] REN: BeginFlush
00000040 18.34701347 [3600] REN: Decommit
00000041 18.34709167 [3600] REN: DiscardInput
00000042 18.34726524 [3600] REN: DiscardVQ
00000043 18.34730148 [3600] REN: EndFlush
00000044 18.34749222 [3600] REN: Commit
00000045 18.34758949 [3600] REN: Run
00000046 18.34762001 [3600] REN: Pause
00000047 18.34873390 [3600] REN: Commit
00000048 18.34881210 [3600] REN: InitAll
00000049 18.34884644 [3600] REN: Stop
00000050 18.34905434 [3600] REN: Decommit
00000051 18.34908867 [3600] REN: DiscardInput
00000052 18.34927559 [3600] REN: Decommit
00000053 18.34929466 [3600] REN: DiscardVQ
00000054 18.36106682 [3600] REN: Present. (PaintCur)
00000055 36.12074661 [3848] 91012485 has capabilities; 32505856
00000056 36.61196518 [3848] 91012485 has capabilities; 32505856



So it doesn't happen during the init phase. too bad.

[3ngel]

Installed latest Haali Splitter.
The problem in the initial ENORMOUS amout of time to start playback it's still here. It's a pity 'cause i think this is a fundamental things that prevents most of us from even only *testing* this renderer ('cause it's obviously unusable in real contexts due to the unacceptable initial delay).
Tested with ATI X800.

[Sirber]

reported already many many times ;)

[anonymez]

been having a problem since first or second release; when i try to seek while playing a dvd, video stops and mpc becomes unresponsive. works fine with overlay/vmr. tried different video & audio decoders, dscaler, intervideo and mpc's internal. playing the individual VOBs works fine, as do all other files.

since i don't think it's been mentioned before, can anyone reproduce it? a decrypted dvd will do, so long as you play the video_ts.ifo :)

[B.F.]

been having a problem since first or second release; when i try to seek while playing a dvd, video stops and mpc becomes unresponsive. works fine with overlay/vmr. tried different video & audio decoders, dscaler, intervideo and mpc's internal. playing the individual VOBs works fine, as do all other files.

since i don't think it's been mentioned before, can anyone reproduce it? a decrypted dvd will do, so long as you play the video_ts.ifo :)

Same here.

[anonymez]

thanks, thought it was just me (and 3 of my PC's) :)

[rig_veda]

Tested the renderer that came with the 2006-07-07 splitter on a 2.8Ghz Northwood with hyperthreading and Geforce5700FX. I didn't have any delays of the sort people described.
CPU utilisation is considerably higher than when using overlay or vmr9. I initially had hoped that doing the YUY2->RGB conversion on the GPU instead of YV12->RGB on the CPU via ffdshow, would give me more free CPU cycles, but it seems the other way around on my hardware.

Anyway, what I'd like to ask Haali: how exact is the YUY2->RGB conversion done by the ps2 code? Is it identical in precision to AviSynth's ConvertToRGB or ffdshow's high quality mode? Haali Renderer definitely looks better than GeForce5700FX's hardware conversion (e.g. less banding in gradients), just like AviSynth and ffdshow do.

[Sirber]

Still having the delay, X800XL AGP.

[MacAddict]

Anxious to try this out! Anyone know if my 9700 Pro would provide acceptable performance? I've seen a few in this thread with a 9800.

[Seb.26]

[solved]

Where picture properties (Brightness/Contrast/Hue/Gamma) can be set for using Haalli render ???
Is it same as overlay setup in panel control ?!
... Or is it in DirectX ???
( I've got NVidia 6600GT - Fw 91.31 WHQL )

Thanks for the help . :)

[Edit]
Thanks to KoD : the setup can be done in DirectX Panel control ( Haali use Direct3D to render frames )
:)

[KoD]

I have a Radeon 9700 Pro and I can tell you that it's faster than using bicubic software resize in ffdshow.

There will be a few quirks, though:

- higher playback start-up time
- when you pause or skip back/forward you may loose video-to-audio synch. This is solved by simply pausing the video again and/or skipping even further back or forward and then letting it play again.
- force output to RGB32 in all your video decoders (easy to set this in ffdshow and coreavc); YUY2 output involves too much processing for the pixel shaders on a Radeon 9700 Pro and you'll have high kernel cpu loads
- sometimes you'll notice jerky pans and tearing. Enabling "Lock back-buffer before presenting" in MPC will cure this most of the time when using MPC to view your video files. You'll also have to disable the "SoftLock" option in Haali's renderer otherwise it won't work.

[MacAddict]

Thanks for the information. I've just installed the 9700 today in my HTPC and using this render I have to say the image quality is excellent. I'm using the max sharpness setting along with RGB32. The A64 3200 is easily playing back my movies hovering around 50% of usage. I only experience about a 2 second delay on startup, not a big problem at all.

Any suggestions which video drivers provide all around better image quality and performance with Haali's renderer?

[KoD]

All video drivers are the same. Just don't force antialiasing by default in them. Leave it to "application preference".

As for Seb.26, Haali's renderer has no Brightness/Contrast/Hue/Gamma controls. But you can just use your video card drivers settings for Brightness/Contrast/Hue/Gamma for Direct3D (if nvidia drivers have something like that). If not, use a third party application like Powerstrip that allows you to alter the LUT table. I don't have a nvidia card, so I don't know of any free app that can do this for a nvidia card, but they might exist, so ask around.

[Seb.26]

I have a question ( maybe a stupid one ) :

Why use Haali render ?!
> If resizing is slower than pure CPU one ( FFDShow )
> If it's adding a delay before first frame display ( about 7s for me )

PS: thanks a lot KoD for your answer ;)

[Haali]

Seb.26 Resizing and colorspace conversion is slower on older hardware, gf6800 or better have no problems with it. And slow startup happens rarely, I've been unable to identify the issue so far since I don't have problematic hardware and can't reproduce it.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi Haali,

May I as what the most up-to-date version is of your splitter is that can handle MPEG-4 AVC within TS... And where it can be obtained.

I would like to try it with some of the new MBAFF compatible vesions of FFdshow ;)

[mariner]

Hi Haali,

Greetings and thank you for the excellent spltter and renderer.

Have been using the renderer in mpc for a while now, but could not get it to display 1920x1080 when playing HD .ts files. The display window stays at somethins like 640x480. Any assistance would be most appreciated.

Thank you and best regards.

ernesto

[Seb.26]

Seb.26 Resizing and colorspace conversion is slower on older hardware, gf6800 or better have no problems with it. And slow startup happens rarely, I've been unable to identify the issue so far since I don't have problematic hardware and can't reproduce it.
OK, I've 6600GT and A64@2.4GHz ... faster to use CPU or GPU ???

-> For the delay, I will make serious tests and report results ...

[Haali]

Have been using the renderer in mpc for a while now, but could not get it to display 1920x1080 when playing HD .ts files. The display window stays at somethins like 640x480. Any assistance would be most appreciated.

The initial size is lowered to fit the screen because I hate windows that needlessly span beyond the screen edges. You can still resize the video to whatever size you like.

[mariner]

Hi Haali, thanks for the reply.

I use a 1920x1200 screen for 1080 .ts files playback, with mpc set to 100% zoom to avoid any scaling artifacts. When Haali renderer is used, the initial window size is about 640x480, and stays the same if I enaged full screen. Is this the expected behaviour, and how to get a 1902x1080 window ?

A related question : are there plans to implement the "full screen exclusive mode" , which some claim to speed up performance?

Thanks and best regards.

[dumbuser]

Have been using the Haali splitter now for some time and look for updates quite regularly. I do appreciate the work here and the concepts brought to life. :D

I would like to ask the dumb question though! Is there any plan to support the old QuickTime ASP MP4?

I can make them or download them and it works fine in QT but have never been able to play them using your front end.

Have checked this with Graph edit, it just will not open. Nero works as well as 3ivx of coarse. No it isn't a conflict as I have never had all of these installed at the same time and as I said, I have and use Graph edit.

Thanks!

[mike_lee]

I have a question ( maybe a stupid one ) :

Why use Haali render ?!
> If resizing is slower than pure CPU one ( FFDShow )
> If it's adding a delay before first frame display ( about 7s for me )

PS: thanks a lot KoD for your answer ;)

I have a large LCD screen, haali re-sizes much, much netter then ffdshow and it's automatic (You choose bi-cubic in MPC-output) although I have no idea why it enlarges when I didn't specify the size anywhere, it just doubles the size on most clips. I keep a different MPC version in my windows tray which is set to VMR9 for when I need shaders. The coloring is somewhat better with haali as well. But the settings are cryptic, I have no idea where to set the sharpness slider, I'm a "soften" kind of guy and sharpening bugs the hell out of me. -0.00 is impossible isn't it? ::ribs Haali:: Also not sure what soft vsync does but I have it checked.

[Seb.26]

I have a large LCD screen, haali re-sizes much, much netter then ffdshow and it's automatic (You choose bi-cubic in MPC-output) although I have no idea why it enlarges when I didn't specify the size anywhere, it just doubles the size on most clips. I keep a different MPC version in my windows tray which is set to VMR9 for when I need shaders. The coloring is somewhat better with haali as well. But the settings are cryptic, I have no idea where to set the sharpness slider, I'm a "soften" kind of guy and sharpening bugs the hell out of me. -0.00 is impossible isn't it? ::ribs Haali:: Also not sure what soft vsync does but I have it checked.
Have you really try FFDShow ?! ( with Lanczos ) ...
Because Halli can't be better ... FFDShow can use Lanczos or Bicubic ( like Haalli ) ... done in software ... but with RGB32 output with HQ 16..235 mapping correction ... :rolleyes:

Halli is a great output filter, but for the moment, it's too young for me : about 7s before starting ( with the minimum buffer ?! where does this CPU time go ??? ) ... some problem with pause and seek ... And Haalli use more CPU than FFDShow+Overlay for me ( 2.4 GHz A64 CPU with 6600GT GPU ) ...

But I'm waiting the next version to see what have change ... :D

[foxyshadis]

I have a large LCD screen, haali re-sizes much, much netter then ffdshow and it's automatic (You choose bi-cubic in MPC-output) although I have no idea why it enlarges when I didn't specify the size anywhere, it just doubles the size on most clips. I keep a different MPC version in my windows tray which is set to VMR9 for when I need shaders. The coloring is somewhat better with haali as well. But the settings are cryptic, I have no idea where to set the sharpness slider, I'm a "soften" kind of guy and sharpening bugs the hell out of me. -0.00 is impossible isn't it? ::ribs Haali:: Also not sure what soft vsync does but I have it checked.
VSync keeps tearing down, at the cost of occasionally dropping frames if the decoder isn't fast enough.

It only enlarges below 600x400 or so, because who wants to watch a 320x240 window on a 1600x1200 screen? Same deal with 1920x1080 video, it sizes down. But it only resizes once in fullscreen no matter what the output size in windowed mode is.

[Seb.26]

VSync keeps tearing down, at the cost of occasionally dropping frames if the decoder isn't fast enough.
With Haali's render (thanks to the buffer in the graphic card) you can't have dropped frame due to the decoder speed on bitrate peak ...

For exemple with DVD : 720*480 in RGB32 -> 1350KB per frame in GC RAM -> about 50 frames (with 64MB buffer) -> more than 1 seconds buffered ... without any cropping before render ...

This is really the big good point for Haali ( IMO of course ) ...
... But the resizing method in Haali is also really good and simple for them who don't like FFDShow ...

Does anybody have an idea for the next version released ???

[foxyshadis]

That doesn't help if you're pushing the system so hard you still run out of buffer.

Something I'm curious about: Who controls dropping frames? The decoder, the renderer, or something else? I can't seem to force slowdowns to become framedrops anymore, which is irritating - I'd much rather drop frames occasionally than end up with a video permenently out of sync after the problem point.

[Seb.26]

That doesn't help if you're pushing the system so hard you still run out of buffer.
Yes, but in this case, your system can't play the movies ...

[DeliriumMode=true]
... or imagine a buffer about 1h frames ... that take about 2h to fill ...
... your can watch 1h30 of your film without any dropped frame ... but your system is about 50% 'to small' to play this ...
... But this have non-sens, buffer cost is about 2.3GB per minute in 720*480(32b)@30fps ... !!! ... maybe a day with
[DeliriumMode=false]

Something I'm curious about: Who controls dropping frames?
+10000

Why sometimes, the CPU is clear ( about 30% for DVD without PostProcessing ), the RAM is OK ( 1GB ), all is ok, but a frame is dropped ... or a frame have tearing ...

Why ?

With Halli's Render, I hope this will "the past" ... because with a lot of frames in Graphic RAM I hope video will playback without any dropped frame ... :D

[Isochroma]

Notes:

1. Using Haali's MKV splitter (with MKV sourcefile), the control item under Filters named "Haali's Video Renderer" is not shown when ffdshow outputs YV12. Other pixel formats result in its visibility. However, any formats other than YV12 are impossibly slow to render (no problems here with other MPC modes).

2. "Load Subtitles" option in context-menu is grayed out when using Haali's Renderer (using MKV sourcefile without subtitles). Also, since rendering is impossibly slow in anything else but YV12, I cannot play any softsubbed files using this renderer, because MPC refuses YV12 connections when subtitles are present. Gabest, please fix MPC!

Hardware is OC'd Athlon XP (2333 MHz.) AGP8X FX5200 (128 MB) on ASUS A8V8X MB, 2.5 GB RAM.

[KoD]

Notes to Isochroma:

- if you would take the time to read the thread from the beginning, you would see that Haali's renderer accepts YUY2 or RGB32 input by default and does not accept YV12. Something must perform the conversion to YUY2 or RGB32 for the renderer to be used, preferably the video decoder itself.

- Haali's renderer uses PS 2.0 shaders to perform its magic. In case of YUY2 input, the shaders are even longer and use your gfx card even more. And all FX5xxx Nvidia series are known to have poor shader performance. It was a big case back when the cards appeared. So, force RGB32 output in your video decoder and if that is not enough then your system is just not powerful enough to use this renderer.

[Isochroma]

Sorry, but YV12 works fine here. All other modes run at 1/2 framerate. Theory and practice are two different creatures entirely.

[foxyshadis]

Sounds like your FX5200 just can't handle Haali's - if it isn't in the filter list then you aren't using it, it falls back on VMR9 or overlay instead when YV12 is used. Evidenced by its dismal performance when it is used. The performance on mine with YUY2, YV12, or RGB32 are all pretty close, the conversion probably takes practically no time, it's the filter itself that sucks up speed.

Yes, but in this case, your system can't play the movies ...
Well, I meant for long enough to overtake the buffer, which is only second or less of HD AVC bitrate spike to bleed it dry. Not to say it won't help, it certainly will.

On the other hand, I just set it to 256M, because I have more than enough memory. =p I wouldn't mind a 1G buffer if it used it smartly!

[dumbuser]

The Haali splitter version 1.6.224.23 thumbs renderer crashes Windows Explorer (XP SP2) when new videos are added to the folder. The prior version 1.6.162.22 did not do this. Until this can be resolved I have had to revert to the older version.

On a positive note the MPEG TS/TP front end is working well. Is there a possibility for h.264 support in a MPEG TS/TP in the future?

FYI I have resolved the MP4 ASP problem. Is seems that when uninstalling one of the MP4 decoders it did not give back control to XviD or DivX until a reinstall of either of these. While XviD or DivX does not have this problem 3ivx does. Sorry to imply the problem may be yours. :)

Update: The problem occurs when adding a 25 FPS video to an existing folder. If you want to induce the problem erase the thumbs.db and enter and exit the folder a few times.

Also I would like to note that I have never been able to use OGG because the thumbs renderer will crash for some OGG/OGM files OGMs in particular made with the original Tobias encoder. Installing and using that filter set does not display the same problem for any OGG/OGM file and thumbs do render properly.

[clsid]

It already supports H.264 in TS.

[Seb.26]

On the other hand, I just set it to 256M, because I have more than enough memory. =p I wouldn't mind a 1G buffer if it used it smartly!
You have 512MB of CG RAM ?!!! ... :eek:

Whaoo ... With my little 128MB, I already think it's too much ...
... 256MB of RAM = 1 second buffer lenght ( 1900*1080*32b@30fps ) ... if with that you can't have smooth playback, you will never have !!! :p :D

Have fun,
Seb

PS: with this biffer size, how many seconds have you to wait before playback start ?! :confused:

PPS: anybody know something about next public release of Haali's Render ??? ( Project still running ?! )

[Isochroma]

Bug: Using the latest Haali renderer and MPC, when the numpad 8 & 2 are used for expanding/shrinking the video vertically, using normal rendering modes this works fine. But the HR resizes the entire video frame horizontally as well as vertically, when it should only be changing the vertical size. Probably happens for the 'horizontal only' MPC options too.

[dumbuser]

It already supports H.264 in TS.

Using whos decoder filter?

Not Nero, Ateme or CoreAVC! But it does do MPEG quite well! :D

[chros]

Bug: Using the latest Haali renderer and MPC, when the numpad 8 & 2 are used for expanding/shrinking the video vertically, using normal rendering modes this works fine. But the HR resizes the entire video frame horizontally as well as vertically, when it should only be changing the vertical size. Probably happens for the 'horizontal only' MPC options too.

Confirmed.

[Seb.26]

Something I'm curious about: Who controls dropping frames? The decoder, the renderer, or something else? I can't seem to force slowdowns to become framedrops anymore, which is irritating - I'd much rather drop frames occasionally than end up with a video permenently out of sync after the problem point.
Have you try Reclock audio render ?!
... if not ... it could be a big step 4 U ... :D

And also try 91.47 forceware (from 3d Guru), they are ... amazing
( great ones ! ;) )

[clsid]

Using whos decoder filter?

Not Nero, Ateme or CoreAVC! But it does do MPEG quite well! :D
Haali's splitter is bundled with CoreAVC and it works fine on most H.264 TS files for me.

Maybe this is your problem:Warning: TS files with missing PAT/PMT tables are not supported.

[dumbuser]

Haali's splitter is bundled with CoreAVC and it works fine on most H.264 TS files for me.

Maybe this is your problem:

I did notice the bundling of Haali with CoreAVC but already had the latest version. Is there something special about the bundled version. If so isn't this going to get rather confusing next time anyone updates Haali?

The problem is not PAT/PMT.

[dumbuser]

It already supports H.264 in TS.

I tried! And you are correct in that there are two versions. The one that is packed with CoreAVC is older than the latest public release and works slightly worse. However neither one of these supports H.264 in a MPEG TS container. I would suggest either uninstalling Gabest's mpegsplitter (if installed) or shutting it down in MPC if that's what your using to judge this.

Unfortunately I have been forced to go back to an earlier version because the thumbs render crashes Explorer when 25 FPS videos are added to the video folder. The same thing happens with OGM files made with the Tobias filters. So the MPEG TS thing will have to wait until Haali gets fixed.

[clsid]

I am using the latest version and it works fine on for example "BBC_H264_test6.ts" in combination with CoreAVC 1.1. PM Haali himself if you don't believe me. It may not work on all TS files. It is still in early development. I prefer Gabest splitter too atm.

[molitar]

Tried Haali and not for me. It breaks the secondary output to full screen. Otherwise it worked alright so I went back to vmr9.

[oddball]

Haali is giving me problems playing back Transport Streams (.TS). Some it will play and fast seek just fine whilst others it will balk at. When it refuses to work I get a blank screen and it just stays stuck with an incorrect playback length displayed. Using Zoom Player 5 preview. I have tried running the .TS files through MPEG2Repair and it makes no difference. I understand that Haali does not support .TS files with invalid PAT/PMT. Is there any way to check if the files I have contain it and any way to fix it?

EDIT: I split a 4.3GB file into 700 meg chunks and the 3rd split part gave me the same problems. Again running it through MPEG2Repair did not fix it enough to playback. After opening it in Avidemux and saving that part with direct stream copy it would then playback using Haali. However the AC3 audio was several hundred milliseconds out of sync. Going to try joining the two main large .TS files together using TSplitter and then run the entire thing through Avidemux to see what happens. I may have to correct for audio sync and then resplit it later.