Haali Renderer

[foxyshadis]

It's only resized in default window view; internally it's the full size so fullscreen (and any resize) doesn't loose any resolution. Haali's given his reasons before (keeping the player from overflowing the screen, likely you have a 1280x1024 or x800 screen) and hasn't changed it, so...

If it's really a problem you can keep it zoomed 200% to get original size in windowed mode.

[wozio]

It's a simple algorithm that chooses between weave and interpolation based on a motion threshold. Nothing advanced there.

Halli do you consider using mocomp api for deinterlacing? Judging from docs it is quite simple to implement. It is enough to have media samples with interlace info (videoinfoheader2) and then pass frame (or frames depending on deinterlacing algorithm) as a surface and receive deinterlaced surface on output. I don't know how about deinterlacing rgb surface so manual color conversion might be a problem (passing raw data from yuv into rgb surface what I suppose you are using in your renderer).

[roflrofl]

Still having problems with Haali's renderer.

Namely excessive tearing and/or loss of audio sync.

Trying to play back 720p .mkv files with CoreAVC as the decoder and 720p/1080 .TS files with FFDshow as the decoder.

With the .mkv files I find tearing is a problem.

With the .TS files tearing is a problem unless I use Nvidia Video Post Processor as an external filter and that eliminates the tearing, however, using the Post Processor causes the audio to go out of sync the moment I switch to full screen.


Edit.

Just tried deactivating all external video filters and am using the internal MPC Mpeg2 decoder to play back my .TS files...

On my PC Monitor everything is flawless but when I switch to my 32" LCD the jitter starts increasing and keeps going! SO annoying!

[Ghim]

The new release fixes most of the problems I had with Haali Renderer.

I've done a bit of testing on my computer (WinXP, Athlon 64 3500+, Nvidia 6800GT) using Zoom Player 5 and Haali Render and I have one problem left:

- When I play DVDs using Gabest's MPV decoder 1.0.0.3 (http://sourceforge.net/projects/guliverkli), it plays fine but as soon a I reach a menu in the DVD, if I try to do any action in this menu, the player freezes.

If I replace Haali Renderer with VMR7 or VMR9, or if I replace MPV decoder by ffdshow, I don't have this problem.

[moshmothma]

Latest version works great with TS files (seeking). Wierd problem with evo files though. Seeking freezes the player. Using haali and windows video decoder for vc1. Thanks

[aydc]

I have started getting pixellized images, especially when I bring sharpness to 0. This happens more with low res movies than hi res movies. Maybe it was always there but I've just noticed it, maybe it's a new problem.

My system is Windows XP, Core2 Duo, nvidia 7900 GS. I'm using zoomplayer. Any ideas on how to solve this?

[B.Slisk]

I have started getting pixellized images, especially when I bring sharpness to 0. This happens more with low res movies than hi res movies. Maybe it was always there but I've just noticed it, maybe it's a new problem.Are you using the latest version of the Haali Renderer?

The version released 31/01/2007 introduced a problem where the renderer wouldn't scale content correctly on nVidia hardware, and possibly on ATI though I can't say for sure.

This problem remained through a few releases, and I think it was finally fixed in the 07/03/2007 release, and as far as I can tell the 28/03/2007 (current) release does not have this problem, at least not on a nVidia GF6600 card and using MPC.

[leeperry]

hey guys

could we get an option to enable/disable the TV>PC thingie ?

for DVD, this is required because it's actually 16-235, so 0-255 makes the image darker.

but for AVI/MKV, you must have it disabled otherwise the image is too bright......

and outputting to RGB32 to disable the TV>PC thingie kinda ruins the point of letting Haali's Renderer convert to RGB32 in hardware with the PS2.0

or is it disabled if you output UYVY ?!?

and also.......is it supposed to be sharper with -0.00 or -1.00 ?! I've got a sharpen filter enabled in KMP so I can't really tell....

Thanks :)

[foxyshadis]

I'd be incredibly grateful to have TV/PC levels selectable as in CoreAVC now, but it's been brought up enough times that I doubt it'll ever happen. Doing it at the YUV->RGB stage minimizes banding, though, and adding a very small dither - .5 bit or so random perterbation - to the conversion equations as a cheap high-quality debanding (much much faster than ffdshow's debanding) would be even more welcome.

[leeperry]

well the way I see it the whole point of this renderer is that it does the RGB32 convertion in hardware with the PS 2.0
If I have to throw RGB32 at it, it loses its major feature...

do you know if it does the luma convertion when you output to YUY2/UYVY ? I don't want TV>PC convertion for AVI/MKV :o

[Seb.26]

Hi guys ! :)

Does anybody know what can modify the "color/brightness/contrast/gamma" of HR ?!

Why ? ...

I have created 2 pictures with paintbrush :
> 1 white background (255;255;255) with 2 greys bars (250;250;250) & (245;245;245)
> 1 black background (0;0;0) with 2 greys bars (5;5;5) & (10;10;10)

I've save them in PNG files and then I use this pictures to calibrate my TV on the full 0..255 range

And with avisynth+x264, I've encode my 2 pictures to obtain a "calibration vidéo"
( levels haven't been TV rescaled : tested with FFDShow's level filter, they are OK )

The probem is that when I show pictures in desktop, I saw the bars ( I use them to calibrate my TV )
... but when I display same pictures but in video, I don't see them ... like if levels have been change ?!
( but they don't, so it could be the render IMO ?! )

... I use MPC with RGB output to Haali's Render

If anybody want, I can provide both pictures & clip ( and .avs scripts if needed ) for testing ... ;)

Thanks ;)
Seb.

[Edit] ... the problem was elsewhere ... all is OK with Haali's Render ... :)

[chros]

well the way I see it the whole point of this renderer is that it does the RGB32 convertion in hardware with the PS 2.0
If I have to throw RGB32 at it, it loses its major feature...
Really ?
So am I a total idiot that I let ffdshow the HQ RGB32 conversion ??? So can I turn it off without quality loss ?

And isn't it true for WMR9 renderers, is it?

Thanks

[leeperry]

well converting to RGB32 HQ sucks up a helluvalot of CPU cycles....

The whole point of this totally awesome renderer is that you can throw YUY2 at it......

so it goes like :
YV12 output from ffdshow > YV12 filters(sharpen,etc..) & upscale in 720p lanzcos 8 passes >YUY2 output(very EZ to convert from YV12) > Haali's

but it's only fine for 0-255 PC content(AVI/MKV/WMVHD etc...)

so for DVD's(which are 16-235), you have to stick with RGB32 and TV>PC conversion.....

at least that's what I understand.....and so far so good :D

and if you got a nvidia videocard, you need to hack the registry to make sure that it outputs 0-255 range on the DVI outputs.........that was my problem :o

[Seb.26]

/!\ HR will apply "TV->PC" levels rescale with YU2 input ... not with RGB32 ... ( on any GC )

[leeperry]

well I don't see a difference betweeen YUY2 and RGB32 output.....I've made many screenshots and compared them.

[Seb.26]

Are you saying that your render do the 16..235 -> 0..255 re-scale ?!
Yes, it does.

And what happen if the source is RGB32 ? ...
RGB32 is not scaled.

But you probably use FFDShow to convert YV12 to RGB32, so the TV->PC scale is done ... :p

[leeperry]

nope, I output YUY2 from ffdshow, I don't wanna waste my CPU time at processing dodgy conversions..

but it seems that AVI/MKV are 16-235 like DVD........this point I'm not sure :(

so let's say all the movies whatsoever are 16-235.....and that HR in YUY2 does the TV>PC scaling.

why are AVI/MKV perfectly fine......and DVD's from WinDVD8 decoder too bright ? because it's done twice ?!?!
once in the decoder, and once in HR ?

I think I'm gonna stick to WinDVD8 for DVD's, and KMPlayer+HR for everything else.......then all my luma problems will be gone :D

[Seb.26]

nope, I output YUY2 from ffdshow, I don't wanna waste my CPU time at processing dodgy conversions..
Hum ... this mainly depend on what hardware you have ...
... in my case CPU (Opteron 175) is a lot faster than CG (6600GT) ... :) ... RGB32 conversion far less than 5% ...

But that's not the problem here ... :p

My previous question was more about difference about RGB32 display on desktop and RGB32 displayed by Haali's render ... :)

Any idea ?!

[Seb.26]

why are AVI/MKV perfectly fine......and DVD's from WinDVD8 decoder too bright ? because it's done twice ?!?!
... try with DScaler ... :confused:

[leeperry]

I used to use Dscaler to drive my TV card.
I know you can use its filters in ffdshow.

can Dscaler play movies as well ?

anyway, KMP+HR for AVI/MKV/WMV and WinDVD8 Platinum for DVD's........and I'm a happy camper :D

and I kinda like its TrimensionDNM stuff :)

[Seb.26]

I used to use Dscaler to drive my TV card.
I know you can use its filters in ffdshow.
can Dscaler play movies as well ?
anyway, KMP+HR for AVI/MKV/WMV and WinDVD8 Platinum for DVD's........and I'm a happy camper :D
and I kinda like its TrimensionDNM stuff :)
DScaler 4.xx are filters used in FFDShow, but DScaler 5.xx is a stand alone DVD decoder ... :cool:

[leeperry]

oh well I've tried every possible DVD decoder.
The sharpest is with windvd8

and the TrimensionDNM is a real treat to look at :)

I know you can force it in ZoomPlayer, but for sum reason the registry trick ain't working with KMPlayer......so I stick to WinDVD8, which does the TV>PC thingie properly :o

[wozio]

nope, I output YUY2 from ffdshow, I don't wanna waste my CPU time at processing dodgy conversions..

but it seems that AVI/MKV are 16-235 like DVD........this point I'm not sure :(

so let's say all the movies whatsoever are 16-235.....and that HR in YUY2 does the TV>PC scaling.

why are AVI/MKV perfectly fine......and DVD's from WinDVD8 decoder too bright ? because it's done twice ?!?!
once in the decoder, and once in HR ?

I think I'm gonna stick to WinDVD8 for DVD's, and KMPlayer+HR for everything else.......then all my luma problems will be gone :D

Basically video standard is to code content in video scale (16-235), I haven't seen any video clip coded at pc scale. But in pc world everything is in pc scale.

There are two approaches how to handle it, extend to pc scale or leave it as it is and just convert to rgb.

First method is good for viewing on pc but can lower quality if done inproperly.

Second method is good for video use (as htpc for examle) display can be calibrated to have best quality possible.

HR always convert to pc scale and does it quite well I suppose.

VMR9 in with latest 7.3 ATI drivers does the same thing.

[wozio]

As you can see below both VMR9 and HR does color conversion similar but not the same, I don't know how to judge which one is better :-) But both convert to pc levels.

Here is HR (latest version in MPC, resized to match aspect ratio):
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/9794/hrrc4.th.jpg (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hrrc4.jpg)

and here VMR9 (renderless mode in MPC):
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/5343/vmr9po4.th.jpg (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vmr9po4.jpg)

I'll try to compare HD source later.

In fact color conversion (yuv->rgb) is dependent on driver when using VMR9 (HR does it "manually" using PS) and not by VMR9 implementation so results can vary from driver versions or ati from nvidia.

BTW VMR9 is much better at deinterlacing than HR. I tried to ask Haali about using dxva to deinterlace since it is separate from decoding acceleration and seems to be wuite easy to implement but without any answer.

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

and you got a ATI card I presume ?

I'm colorblind, I don't see a damn difference between your two pics :D :D :D

Well, if I use WinDVD8 MPEG2 decoder with VMR9 in RGB32, the picture is too dark....

and if I play XVID in VMR9/RGB32, the image is too damn bright..

I think I'm gonna quit bother about that, WinDVD8 + TrimensionDNM for DVD, KMPlayer+HR in YUY2 for everything else :D

[Leak]

I'm colorblind, I don't see a damn difference between your two pics :D :D :D
Never mind the colors - if you look closely at the first image you'll find it's blurred vertically when compared to the second one...

np: Jel - Thrashin (Soft Money)

[leeperry]

yeah but I don't think that's related to the renderer...

[wozio]

yep ATI card (x1650 pro) with 7.3 drivers.

Colors are almost the same, I don't know how to compare renderers in color conversion area. Maybe later I will run some test clip with color bars then we will decide.

lepperry try to save both images on disk and use app like acdsee to switch between them, you will see difference.

blur is related to deinterlacing, this is telecined mpeg2 source which must be processed with 3:2 pulldown to have good results. In motion it looks even worse in HR. (second thing is that deinterlacing process in ati drivers applies some sharpening to the image so it is a matter of taste).

I tried also some other mpeg2 decoder (dscaler5 decoder instead of cyberlink) with both vmr9 and hr and results are the same in deinterlacing area.

I will try hd source later, ati drivers have had problems with color conversion in there.

[leeperry]

as far as I'm concerned I won't be throwing MPEG2 frames to HR....too cumbersome with the double TV>PC conversions(one from the MPEG2 decoder, and one from HR) and all...

and I'm not sure HR is supposed to cope with that.
his job is too provide us with a playback smooth as butter and do the RGB32 conversion with the PS 2.0.......and it does it wonderfully :)

I personnaly upscale in 720p lanzcos 8 passes, and then I throw it to my SANYO beamer in 720p over HDMI......that's the reason why the sharpness option doesn't change a damn thing, no resize whatsoever is taking place.....

HR does what it knows, and it's spectacular :D

[chros]

Originally Posted by Haali
Originally Posted by Seb.26
Are you saying that your render do the 16..235 -> 0..255 re-scale ?!
Yes, it does.

Originally Posted by Seb.26
And what happen if the source is RGB32 ? ...
RGB32 is not scaled.
Thanks Seb, I didn't know that too :)
So, as far as I know, I can disable the HQ RGB conversion in ffdshow, right?
And it uses less CPU (not so much, but it matters in the postprocessing stage ...)

Can be any quality difference bitween HR and HQ RGB in ffdshow?
(I have tried to see some difference with xvid and x264-HD contents, but I didn't see anything...)

and if you got a nvidia videocard, you need to hack the registry to make sure that it outputs 0-255 range on the DVI outputs..
I have a Geforce 7600GT too, so can you link to the patch ? (I'm using DVI output (HDMI input) to my LG LCD TV)

[leeperry]

there u go :

well as my PJ attached to DVI connectors. Since I have been upgrading my
video driver I notice crushed video VMR9 levels on my calibrated PJ. My
first thought was, ok a bad edited DVD. But, I double checked then with
well known flics, unfortunately, same result.

Nvidia mentions a work around for their very cool "new detection
feature"

http://download.nvidia.com/Windows/84.21/84.21_ForceWare_Release_Notes.pdf

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Video color-space range for DVI-only1 outputs is erroneously set to
standard mode (16-235) instead of extended mode (0-255).
A new detection feature to apply Standard CSC mode to TV outputs
(including NTSC, PAL, 480i, and 576i), included DVI-only outputs by
mistake.
Note: The driver correctly applies extended mode to analog outputs, and
standard mode to TV outputs (including NTSC, PAL, 480i, and 576i).
A future driver release will correct this and apply the extended-mode color
space to DVI-only outputs.
You can work around this issue by forcing either standard or extended mode
as follows:
1 Launch regedit and determine the current primary display card by
looking in
HKey_Local_Machine\Hardware\DeviceMap\Video
and note the GUID (global unique identifier assigned by Windows),
which is the long string in brackets { } at the end of the entry
"\device\video0".
2 Look in
HKey_Local_Machine\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\
{GUID}\0000
where {GUID} is the number derived from the previous step.
3 Open the "0000" directory and create a new DWORD called
VMRCCCSStatus and give it a value of
0x3 - to force use of the standard YUV range of 16-235
0x1 - to force use of the extended YUV range of 0-255
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I did apply VMRCCCSStatus=1 for both DVI heads and after a reboot all
went back to full PC-Level range!

[qyqgpower]

I think YUV range shoudn't be extended since renderer should do the same thing when finnally output the frame on PC monitor in RGB format

[wozio]

as far as I'm concerned I won't be throwing MPEG2 frames to HR....too cumbersome with the double TV>PC conversions(one from the MPEG2 decoder, and one from HR) and all...

and I'm not sure HR is supposed to cope with that.


Decoders doesn't and shouldn't do TV->PC conversion, this is done in renderer during yuv to rgb conversion or in filters like ffdshow. One decoder which doesn't some kind of tv->pc scale conversion is coreavc but I don't knowhow it is done there since it works only in direct connection to VMR9, if you throw some other filter between, there is no effect in this.


his job is too provide us with a playback smooth as butter and do the RGB32 conversion with the PS 2.0.......and it does it wonderfully :)


This applies only for progressive sources, Haali himself wrote me that he doesn't care about deinterlacing because he doesn't watch interlaced sources. What is the effect you can see on my snapshots.

And also this yuv to rgb conversion, as you can also see this is not that big difference comparing to VMR9.

I would rather say that HR is best in resizing area, but on my samples you can't see it since they are 1:1 without resizing in renderer.

[Seb.26]

This applies only for progressive sources, Haali himself wrote me that he doesn't care about deinterlacing because he doesn't watch interlaced sources.
IMO : deinterlacing in HR is useless ... this must be done by FFDShow before first resizings/post processing ...

[Leak]

IMO : deinterlacing in HR is useless ... this must be done by FFDShow before first resizings/post processing ...
Also, simply deinterlacing is not a great idea on telecined material (i.e. video with 3:2 pulldown applied) - and I never managed to get ATI's 3:2 pulldown removal/deinterlacing to work correctly on my Radeon X1900... :(

That's why I'm currently working on a patch for ffdshow (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=987811#post987811) to allow AviSynth and TIVTC to be used on the fly; it's not 100% finished, but it works already. :D

[wozio]

Also, simply deinterlacing is not a great idea on telecined material (i.e. video with 3:2 pulldown applied) - and I never managed to get ATI's 3:2 pulldown removal/deinterlacing to work correctly on my Radeon X1900... :(

Thing is that not all mpeg2 decoders outputs frames in format which allows VMR9 to use dxva deinterlacing, I haven't had succes trying ffdshow. I use dscaler5 or cyberlink mpeg2 decoders and it works really good. Cyberlink only in dxva mode, dscaler5 when outputting nv12 colorspace and with deintelacing set to automatic.

Problem is that if you put ffdshow between decoder and vmr9 for postprocessing then deinterlacing will not work since as far as I know ffdshow doesn't preserve frames' interlacing flags (videoinfoheader2?). Also I don't know if ffdshow's filters and postprocessing work correctly on interlaced frames, I don't think so.

And also VMR9 must be in mixing mode for deinterlacing (yu can control this in MPC). And in ATI driver 3:2 pulldown is disabled by default, you must enable it via CCC or ati tray tools (much better to be honest and lightweight).

That's why I'm currently working on a patch for ffdshow to allow AviSynth and TIVTC to be used on the fly; it's not 100% finished, but it works already.:(

I will try this and compare.

[Leak]

I use dscaler5 or cyberlink mpeg2 decoders and it works really good. Cyberlink only in dxva mode, dscaler5 when outputting nv12 colorspace and with deintelacing set to automatic.
Yeah, I did that, but while it deinterlaced somewhat it also left some strange streaks in the chroma. Granted, it's been some time since I last tried this, but the result wasn't pretty.

Also, is 3:2 pulldown removal done by analyzing the video or just by relying on the interlace flags? If it's the latter, I have a few DVDs here where this plain won't work...

[wozio]

Yeah, I did that, but while it deinterlaced somewhat it also left some strange streaks in the chroma. Granted, it's been some time since I last tried this, but the result wasn't pretty.

You mean something like that:
http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/video_dec/mpg_opening2_1_ati_ati.jpg
?

If yes then this is known issue with denoising in ati drivers and is possible to switch off:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=676073&page=1&pp=30

Also, is 3:2 pulldown removal done by analyzing the video or just by relying on the interlace flags? If it's the latter, I have a few DVDs here where this plain won't work...

As fas as I know both:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2551&p=7

And as you can see this is very old article, there are some newer ones.

[Leak]

You mean something like that:
http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/video_dec/mpg_opening2_1_ati_ati.jpg
?

If yes then this is known issue with denoising in ati drivers and is possible to switch off:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=676073&page=1&pp=30
Looks like that, yeah... :)

I'll give it another shot when I get time. Thanks for the info!

[leeperry]

IMO : deinterlacing in HR is useless ... this must be done by FFDShow before first resizings/post processing ...

exactly http://images.southparkstudios.com/img/content/news/3031a.gif

linear blending must be done prior to any other filters..otherwise you'll end up with jaggies

[wozio]

I did some checks and results are quite interesting. I compared yuv to rgb color conversion routines of three popular methods:

- ffdshow - hq yuv to rgb conversion checked and forced rgb output to vmr9
- haali renderer - hr doesn't want to connect to ffdshow on my machine god knows why, so I've used coreavc here but I checked on vmr9 and decoding results from coreavc and ffdshow were identical
- vmr9 - yuv mixing mode enabled, yv12 output from ffdshow

I used ati tray tools to make screenshots.

Here it is:
- ffdshow:
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/ffdshow.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=ffdshow.jpg)

- haali:
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/haali.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=haali.jpg)

- vmr9:
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/vmr9.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=vmr9.jpg)

As you can see all methods are quite similar, differences are visible but not big. I won't choose any of them since I don't have reference to compare.

But thing are getting interesting when we feed VMR9 with HD source or at least with 720 lines or more (I used the same clip resized in ffdshow to 1920x1080).

- vmr9 hd:
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/vmr9_hd.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=vmr9_hd.jpg)

It seems that ATI drivers apply other equations to convert in hd size than in sd size. Once more it is hard to say which method is better.

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

nice screenshots, but I'm on my beamer atm so it's hard to examinate.

OTOH, I can confirm that this goddamn nvidia card was outputting 16-235 to my SANYO Z3 beamer :o

I've forced 0-255, and now the quality is just jaw dropping with that registry hack and HR..

I'm stunned, perfect colors over HDMI in 720p, lanzcos 8 passes resize and the very natural "basic" sharpen filter of KMPlayer........which turns SD in HD with one click.........and HR makes it so freakin' smooth :D

[leeperry]

only last issue, the last horizontal line of the image is made of green artefacts....they don't show up when I make screenshots....and it's due to HR, not my other filters..

any clue ?!

Thanks,

[HeadBangeR77]

@ wozio:
Either I'm totally blind or the first screen grab using ffdshow's conversion is much more colourful in terms of intensity and saturation, while the other two remain a bit washed-out and dimmed, as it's typical for VMR9 (unless both nVidia and ATI finally fix their 2d drivers :mad: )? Excuse, but I do see a huge difference between those screen shots. If was to sort them in terms of intensity of colours, I would say the coveravc does the worst job here, since there's a difference between it and the VMR9 + YUV mixing mode (a bit better imho).

@ all
As to HD sources, we've had some interesting discussion here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=972726#post972726

it really does depend on the resolution. ;)

cheers,
HDBR77

PS. Ooops, I've just realized it's been OT.

[leeperry]

ooooooh....the HR screenshot looks washed out indeed..

[wozio]

ffdshow is very very close to vmr9 in sd mode, haali is slightly different it clearly uses other color matrix. CoreAVC has nothing to tell here since it only decodes the stream not colors. I compared coreavc with ffdshow both connected to vmr9 and frames were identical, I couldn't see any difference. So all changes we are seeing are because of haali renderer's color conversion.

Anyway there is possibility to pass to color converter (renderer in our case) color matrix used in stream but problem is that no decoder supports it.

One more time: VMR9's conversion is up to the drivers, on other driver version result could be different, the same on nvidia cards and drivers. These results are for catalyst 7.3. Here is real strenght of HR and ffdshow. It is not dependent on driver because it uses it's own method. On different cards results should be the same.

[leeperry]

but you got an ATI card.......colors don't look washed out on my 6800GT using the latest XP drivers.

and anyone's getting green artefacts on the last horizontal line when using HR ?

[wozio]

but you got an ATI card.......colors don't look washed out on my 6800GT using the latest XP drivers.
You mean using haali renderer? On my ATI they aren't also :) they are slightly different but not washed out.

[leeperry]

well on your screenshots, they obviously do ?!

[aydc]

Isn't this color business a bit off-topic for this thread?