Haali Renderer

[leeperry]

so I can't send 16-235 with a Geforce over DVI ?!?! :(

[leeperry]

ok I've given up on outputing 16-235 with my 8600GT.

but now I'm getting tons of tearing on my new 720p projector :(

what gives ?!?!?!? :(

[aydc]

ok I've given up on outputing 16-235 with my 8600GT.

but now I'm getting tons of tearing on my new 720p projector :(

what gives ?!?!?!? :(

Have you tried making v-sync default on?

[leeperry]

thanks for the tip, I didn't think about it :D

[Flagg99]

Can anyone provide insight as to why, using either Zoomplayer 5.0 or 5.5 beta with Haali's renderer, dvds freeze on menu screens and eventually grphedit stops responding?

This doesn't happen using the Haali integrated into MPC so in theory it could be ZP but I haven't been able to find much info... I'd prefer to use ZP as it combined with Haali is MILES ahead of VMR, but the freezes are beyond frustrating...

[leeperry]

try KMPlayer ;)

[aydc]

Can anyone provide insight as to why, using either Zoomplayer 5.0 or 5.5 beta with Haali's renderer, dvds freeze on menu screens and eventually grphedit stops responding?

This doesn't happen using the Haali integrated into MPC so in theory it could be ZP but I haven't been able to find much info... I'd prefer to use ZP as it combined with Haali is MILES ahead of VMR, but the freezes are beyond frustrating...

It might be because of the notorius Macrovision incompatibility when Haali is used together with ZoomPlayer for DVD Playback. Search the ZoomPlayer forums for more info.

[Rash]

so I can't send 16-235 with a Geforce over DVI ?!?! :(
Oh, lord, that's exactely what I want, and I don't get. *sigh* :(

[leeperry]

well I've tried everything possible.....no can do...

so I increase the brightness to +16 and the contrast to -17 on my Mitsubishi HC3100 DLP projector.

does the trick really well ;)

[Flagg99]

It might be because of the notorius Macrovision incompatibility when Haali is used together with ZoomPlayer for DVD Playback. Search the ZoomPlayer forums for more info.


Thanks, I checked their forum but I don't get the error associated with it, plus I'm playing ripped DVDs (I've backed up my entire collection using DVDFab) and that should remove any macrovision issues afaik. Any other possibilities?

I absolutely love the results I get with Haali so I really want to get it running flawlessly...

[leeperry]

switch to KMPlayer then ;)

[leeperry]

hey guys, here's the lamest question on earth :D

what's actually sharper ?!?! 0 or -1.0 ?

can I use my nvidia drivers to improve the sharpness even further ?
I've tried to change the video settings in there, but it doesn't seem to change a damn thing :mad:

If I switch to an ATI HD2x00 card, can I still use HR ?!?!? :o


Thanks,

[wOxxOm]

-1 is more sharp which is subtly visible in poor quality anime in particular easily.
To increase sharpness I recommend switching to FFDShow video decoder for all the formats possible and enable Resize filter with suiting algorithm (Bicubic/Lanczos/any other) finetuning filter's settings page: luma & chroma sharpness. Important thing is to set target resolution for resize to "Desktop resolution" option of course. However this will make your CPU work hard!

[leeperry]

yeah thanks, I already have 10x lanzcos :D

I want more :o

will HR work with an ATI card ?
I think the latest nvidia drivers are really bloated when it comes to sharpness :O

[chros]

will HR work with an ATI card ?
Sure, HR only requires Pixelshader 2.0 compatible cards ...

can I use my nvidia drivers to improve the sharpness even further ?
I've tried to change the video settings in there, but it doesn't seem to change a damn thing
Yes, it's possible if you used the Video "Overlay" settings. HR is using the GPU capabilities through Direct3D so you may change those setting (but not recommended, leave it on "Controlled by application"), and you can use the settings where Digital Vibrance is ...

yeah thanks, I already have 10x lanzcos, I want more
As wOxxOm said, you can use ffdshow to apply sharpener filters: I'm using the built-in asharp filter for HD content (it's fast, and gives good quality), and you may try Seesaw with SD content (it's not fast ... :) )

[KoD]

yeah thanks, I already have 10x lanzcos :D

I want more :o

Can you live with the ringing ? You get what you're looking for, I'd say... Some people really now what 'quality' means !

[leeperry]

well what's the limit with lanzcos to get sharpness without ringing ?

4x ?

I'm not too sure what ringing is.......but 10x looks sharper to me than 2x :(

I find spline VERY blurry :)

ok thanks chros, everything is fine with the ATI ;)

[foxyshadis]

Lanczos always causes ringing, it just gets more pronounced as the taps are increased. So do other methods, in general more sharpness = more ringing. (Switching up from bicubic to lanczos helps, but there's not really anything simple that's both sharper and less ringy than lanczos. That's why some call sinc 'perfect'. You have to use something extremely slow like NNEDI.)

If you aren't sure what ringing is, it's the lighter side of an edge turning white, and the darker side turning black. Strengthening the contrast is part of how these algorithms sharpen, the other big difference is how much aliasing (stairstepping) they cause.

If you like the effect, you can use whatever you want though.

[leeperry]

ok thanks for the reply ;)

actually I always apply sharpen to my videos, with KMP.

the basic sharpen built-in filter looks very natural to me, except for anime...because the edges are not pronounced enough I guess.

actually I've run a lot of tests on my HC3100 beamer, and lanczos 10X is indeed more blurry than 4X + luma sharpen 0.5.....I reallly don't like spline, I find it blurry :D

[leeperry]

oh BTW I have recently switched from a 8600GT to a HD2400.....and randomly HR locks up when i try to close it.

it happens with KMP and MPC, so it's not application dependant.

it never happened to me with the nvidia card :(

I use XP SP2, and 7.10 ATI drivers if that can help

[KoD]

The lock-up is something I'm experiencing as well. Only happens with MPC though, never with ZoomPlayer. Also an ATi card here, much ancient than yours (a Radeon 9700) and a single core and no HT cpu.

As for image resizing (resampling is the term that describes what really happens), foxyshadis already explained it, but you may have a look on this page as well to see various algos, as well as a visual description of various artifacts: Image resampling algorithms (http://graphics.cs.msu.ru/en/research/resampling/index.html).

[leeperry]

cool thanks for the link.

but I think lanczos 4x + luma sharpen 0.5 gives optimal results ?!?!

the locking up issue is getting me crazy.............it happens ALL THE BLOODY TIME now :(

[duckyy]

Hey people,

I'm experiencing a problem using HR with my new HD2600Pro.
I've been using HR without problems with Geforce Ti4200 and Geforce 6600GT, but with the ATI card, the frame rate drops to 15 fps.

I've actually just managed to get a steady 25fps lowering the buffers and frames in HR options.
I'm using CoreAVC 1.5, ffdshow 1502 and reclock 1.7

My card is MSI 2600Pro. Let me know if you have any clue.

[leeperry]

hey ducky, did you check all the stuff I told you about ?

anyhow your CPU is too slow, it's not HR's fault I think.

overclock the mofo ;)

[kutjong]

I love this renderer, too bad it doesn't support YV12... BTW, am I right that YV12->YUY2 conversion is lossless?
I think it would be nice though to have Haali renderer to support YV12 so that cpu usage could be lower without the YUY2 conversion.

Is there any program that can tell if a video use BT.601 or BT.709 color range? I know that in general SD=601 and HD=709 but this isn't always the case...
So switching between 601 and 709 output with Haali renderer, I see differences in colors, but how will I tell which one is right?
What colors will look out of place if wrong output is chosen?

[duckyy]

hey ducky, did you check all the stuff I told you about ?

anyhow your CPU is too slow, it's not HR's fault I think.

overclock the mofo ;)


I downloaded 3Dmark but I really don't think this is the problem (I'll give you my results tonight).

MSI 2600Pro is 256Mo, so I set 200 in frames and buffer (instead of 256 max) and now everything is fine. The CPU is charged about 30/40%

I'm full YUY2, GPU is doing resize + RGB conversion thanks to HR.

[leeperry]

I love this renderer, too bad it doesn't support YV12... BTW, am I right that YV12->YUY2 conversion is lossless?
I think it would be nice though to have Haali renderer to support YV12 so that cpu usage could be lower without the YUY2 conversion.

Is there any program that can tell if a video use BT.601 or BT.709 color range? I know that in general SD=601 and HD=709 but this isn't always the case...
So switching between 601 and 709 output with Haali renderer, I see differences in colors, but how will I tell which one is right?
What colors will look out of place if wrong output is chosen?

DGindex can do it for MPEG files.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7717/barsmatrixqh9.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barsmatrixqh9.jpg)

[leeperry]

any chance getting a fix for ATI cards ?!?!?!?!

please Haali, if you read me :D

[leeperry]

HR is locking up almost ALL THE TIME when I close it, with the latest ATI drivers on XP SP2.

I'm gonna turn nuts anytime soon :(

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Haali Media Splitter (2007-11-18)
http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

Changes

o New Features:
+ Removed Win9x support
+ Enabled autoloading fonts by default
+ Added support for writing zlib compressed mov headers
+ Added an option to write smaller but less compatile files in gdsmux, this behaviour was always on previously
o Fixed items:
+ Use ACM codec id 0x50 for MPEG-1 layer 1/2 audio
+ Fixed detection of MPEG-1 audio channel count
+ Various bugfixes in gdsmux
+ Eliminated a deadlock in video renderer
+ Fixed H.264 muxing
+ Fixed parsing of zlib compressed mp4/mov headers

[leeperry]

"Eliminated a deadlock in video renderer"

w00t :D

[leeperry]

ok new version seems to work flawlessly, Kudos to Haali :D

just a last question, though.

by default resize is on -0.61

If I got it right, anything above this figure will give too much ringing ?!?!

I send lanczos 4x with luma sharpen 0.8 + sharpen to HR, so I don't wanna add ANY more ringing.......I want it as "neutral" as possible.

Thanks,

Switching up from bicubic to lanczos helps, but there's not really anything simple that's both sharper and less ringy than lanczos. That's why some call sinc 'perfect'.

so sinc is a better option than lanczos ?!
what are the optimal settings pls ?

[KoD]

If you already resize to screen resolution in ffdshow, then Haali's renderer will not resize anything. If ffdshow outputs 1280xsomething and your screen resolution is 1280xsomething, then it's obvious Haali's renderer has nothing to resize.

Regarding that parameter in Haali's renderer options. That parameter is used to set how sharp or how smooth the result of the resampling (I've called it above "resizing") will be. Since you perform resizing in ffdshow, and Haali's renderer performs no resizing, you can move that slider up and down and you'll see no difference because it's never used.

Finally, sinc is the "ultimate" function. It has one big problem: it's an ideal function, mathematical beauty that can't be implemented in reality. What you see as "sinc" implemented in various places is an approximation. The "real deal" would require the use of an infinite number of samples from the past and the future; something like that can't be implemented in the real world. (on a quick search, I haven't found anything better than this (http://www.dspguide.com/ch16/1.htm) to explain it)

Finally:what are the optimal settings pls ?The answer is simple: "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder". In other words, what is beautiful for somebody may not be beautiful for someone else. Beauty is relative, not absolute. Whatever you like the most, that's what beautiful is for you.

[leeperry]

ok thanks for the reply.

my HC3100 projector has a native resolution of 1280*768

I resize all incoming SD/HD movies to this resolution in lanzcos 4X + luma sharpen 0.5 + sharpen filter, then HR does the AR resizing.

so 1024*768 for 4:3, 1280*533 for 2.40, 1280*692 for 1.85, 1280*720 for 1.78....etc etc

so -0.61 in HR is the most "neutral" for downscaling ?

I'll run some blind tests this evening :D

spline and sinc don't look as sharp as lanczos to me ;)

[Haali]

The sharpness parameter and bicubic resizing are used only when upscaling. Downscaling uses AF hardware (probably uses some proprietary algorithm). You can see the resizer mode in OSD, N=no scaling, A=AF, S=cubic. Also the osd can be invoked with right-alt+O.

[Kado]

If the OSD is enabled it will mess with styled subs using mpc internal renderer only if the video is displayed at original (100%) or superior resolution.
Also it seems that the subtitles resolution is limited to 1024x768 resolution even if you use "desktop resolution" in mpc (I use 1680x1050 res for my desktop). I can provide pictures if necessary. Thanks for the updates!

[leeperry]

thank you for clearing this up Haali, and thank you for this fantastic renderer http://forum.shmup.com/images/smiles/coupdefoudre.gif

so as you predicted, it does say "NA"

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2536/hrpf1.png

BTW, what do u call "AF hardware" ?!

so my 2600XT is doing the resize I guess.....the ATI are good at doing this sort of things, so I'm not too worried :D

FIY, I've got some MKV files that work fine with the "KMP Matroska Splitter" but not with yours, would you want some samples ?
they mostly refuse to play, or no audio....this sort of problems..

PS : I heard you were working on a new version of Reclock, true ?

[Leak]

BTW, what do u call "AF hardware" ?!
Hardware that does this, i.e. the card's texture units... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anisotropic_filtering)

np: Gebrüder Teichmann - Nick (The Number Of The Beat)

[leeperry]

ohhhh right, "AF" :D

but it says "NA", not "AF"....I've just tried to force 16X AF, didn't see much change ?!

so something else than AF is taking care of the resize ?!

[foxyshadis]

ohhhh right, "AF" :D

but it says "NA", not "AF"....I've just tried to force 16X AF, didn't see much change ?!

so something else than AF is taking care of the resize ?!

Yes, ffdshow. Haali's isn't resizing it in any way if you're doing it all in ffdshow, as Haali and others just explained! Your video card, driver settings, and renderer in general don't have to modify the video when it's already the same size.

spline and sinc don't look as sharp as lanczos to me ;)

Lanczos is a truncated sinc, what ffdshow calls a sinc is actually just truncated differently than lanczos. nm though, not related to the discussion.

[leeperry]

yes, I understand that.

yet, something is resizing 1280*768 to 1280*533.....and it's not the AF apparently.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2536/hrpf1.png

[Haali]

there are two letters, one for horizontal direction, one for vertical

[leeperry]

oh ok!! that would explain :D

can I improve the PQ even further ?

would forcing 16X AF/high quality mipmap/triple buffering/24bit z-buffer change anything ?

Thanks!

[leeperry]

does 16X AF help with PQ in HR if it's being resized by the video card ? anyone pls ?

I thought AF was related to geometrical backgrounds in games.....

thanks,

[kutjong]

I don't think anisotropic filtering affects hardware rendering much, if at all. I think it will only require more work from your gfx card, same as with AA, it'll only have a bad effect.

[leeperry]

also what I think.......yet my video is vertically resized through AF ?!

so I was asking Haali if forcing 16X AF would improve the process

[foxyshadis]

Interestingly, there's a method of finding out what happens to be much faster than asking repeatedly. By using this method, I personally couldn't find any difference, and I wouldn't expect one; I'd expect Haali chose whatever was appropriate for the task.

[Leak]

Interestingly, there's a method of finding out what happens to be much faster than asking repeatedly.
That wouldn't happen to be "just friggin' trying it out already", now, would it? :D

[leeperry]

Interestingly, there's a method of finding out what happens to be much faster than asking repeatedly. By using this method, I personally couldn't find any difference, and I wouldn't expect one; I'd expect Haali chose whatever was appropriate for the task.

well yeah sometimes I think it's better, sometimes I don't :D

depending on how high I am :o

so I was simply asking for a theoritical answer :thanks:

[foxyshadis]

Take full-screen screenshots and flip back and forth with an image ABX program. (xnview and irfanview have dedicated comparison windows, for instance.) That saves you from synching up video constantly while trying to remember how the other looked... harder than it sounds when you're baked. ;)