Haali Renderer

[BetaBoy]

It will be released with or slightly before CoreAVC 2.0.

[THX-UltraII]

thxz!

[Faile]

It will be released with or slightly before CoreAVC 2.0 this week.

Week's quickly coming to an end :p
But seriously, is it delayed ? Been waiting for a new version of Haali for 2 years now so I am a bit anxious :)

[73ChargerFan]

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[foxyshadis]

All posts contributing nothing but harping on release dates or missed promises from this point on will be struck with rule 12 and/or rule 16. Core is eternally over-optimistic, but this thread is getting far too spammed up with curious and angry people, like the CoreAVC thread. Software is done when it's done.

I thought I'd already laid this out but I can't find the post, so no strikes yet.

[Faile]

All posts contributing nothing but harping on release dates or missed promises from this point on will be struck with rule 12 and/or rule 16. Core is eternally over-optimistic, but this thread is getting far too spammed up with curious and angry people, like the CoreAVC thread. Software is done when it's done.

I thought I'd already laid this out but I can't find the post, so no strikes yet.

Who has just edited his post and removed "this week" from it. Sorry for asking about something written by someone.
I am not familiar with Core and don't know that he is over optimistic, he seemed connected to Haali and the development of his splitter and he posted a timeframe of release.
If one is not allowed to ask about it when said timeframe is coming to an end then honestly...stuff your forum where the sun don't shine.

Look up the definition of "forum" sometime, you might learn stuff.

And yeah, go ahead and ban me to show me you are a big strong and mighty guy on the net, heh

[foxyshadis]

I'm sorry, you might wish to re-examine who and what this forum is for, get an idea of the decorum here, and reread the rules that you agreed to upon signing up. I wasn't passively "calling you out", just trying to keep the thread on track, but that was an incredibly childish response to a general request. There are better places to privately contact the people concerned. You're just pixels on a screen to me for now, I get no joy from doing a simple job. Struck (not banned) for rule 16.

[CruNcher]

@BetaBoy

Does one of the Fixes also include more compatible .mov parsing ?
i have the problem that this IMA ADPCM Audio stream is not reaching ffdshows audio decoder with Haalis Splitter but Gabest (MPC-HCs internal) Mplayer and VLC work fine :)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : ADPCM
Format settings, Firm : IMA
Codec ID : ima4
Duration : 2mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 352.8 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Stream size : 5.33 MiB (1%)
Language : English

[leeperry]

you can find the official HMS thread here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=80762&page=24

[CruNcher]

Oops
thx leeperry, it was also reported already in 2005 :D
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=727918#post727918

[Amefurashi]

This is probably going to be an old question, but I was not able to find the answer myself...

Is it a known issue that using Haali renderer with ffdshow's x264 decoding in MPC HC (or TheKMPlayer) results in a forced downsampling of a 1080p clip? 720p plays just fine and the player shows the movie window's correct size (e.g. 1280x720), but 1080p are shown in a small window (about 960x400) and, let's say, I can't capture a snapshot in its native resolution.

What to do, my friends? :confused:

[73ChargerFan]

Amefurashi, it is a known issue, but not for the reason you think.
I've already said that a couple of times, but here it goes again: video size is reduced so the player window fits the screen. This is how I want it and I'm not going to change it. If you want parts of your video to go outside the screen and become invisible, then resize your player manually or use another renderer.

[leeperry]

oh yes, as long as you run in windowed mode, HR will shrink it indeed.

[Amefurashi]

Got it, thanks. Guess I'll hop on VRM9 or EVR when dealing with 1080p content (my desktop resolution is 1680x1050, not good enough).

:thanks:

[THX-UltraII]

any news if Haali will be released any time soon?

[fastplayer]

any news if Haali will be released any time soon?
Apparently, you conveniently "missed" this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1346046#post1346046) by foxyshadis, so I will quote it again here to spare you scrolling 10 posts up:
All posts contributing nothing but harping on release dates or missed promises from this point on will be struck with rule 12 and/or rule 16.

[THX-UltraII]

sorry, didn t see that.

[leeperry]

Haali has addressed all of these issues in the upcoming 2.0 version of the Haali Media Splitter.
this would indeed appear to be the case :eek:

I will run more tests with 23.976fps MKV files @48.000Hz w/ Reclock...but this used to drop frames randomly after 1H if you didn't catch the VSYNC properly(which took a lot of luck), but from what I've seen so far jitter on 23.976fps MKV files seems FAR more stable than ever before...prepare for unforeseen consequences http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/ayuluna.gif

[BetaBoy]

I am sure there are many issues yet to be fixed... but this is moving in the right direction... and I want to thank Haali for his continued contributions.

[leeperry]

now, if he could fix the slight errors in the BT601/709 conversion coeffs(I can provide the exact coeffs and test patterns), and implement this PS script to get proper colors: Color Correction with a HTPC - AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720)

this would be beyond words! http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/paradise974.gif

[Keiyakusha]

By the way about PS3 scaler. I know It was disabled on some point of developing but is there any chances to see it again? Is it possible to get some speed improvements with it? If it doesn't works fine on all hardware, maybe its better to add some checkbox so it can be enabled/disabled by user?

[leeperry]

Don't set your hopes too high, the HR DLL hasn't been updated since January 2009 and HR is a dead project as far as I can see...the new HMS seems to have a more stable jitter on 23.976 MKV files w/ DTS, but AC3 is even worse than before.

Quite honestly, when you see all that mVR offers(it's dead smooth for me in 48Hz, far smoother and sharper than HR by a long shot, Kazuya can confirm)...there's really no more reason to use HR: its REC601/709 YUY2 coeffs are wrong, it works very poorly w/ Reclock, its scaler gives ghost lines on ATi cards, no CMS whatsoever, it cannot keep up w/ 60fps streams, etc etc...BetaBoy pays Haali to improve HMS, allowing CoreAVC to work on W7 and in BD structures..this is already fantastic! but find a backup plan if you were hoping for HR bug fixes :o

[Egh]

Don't set your hopes too high, the HR DLL hasn't been updated since January 2009 and HR is a dead project as far as I can see...

Quite honestly, when you see all that mVR offers(it's dead smooth for me in 48Hz, far smoother and sharper than HR by a long shot, Kazuya can confirm)...there's really no more reason to use HR: its REC601/709 YUY2 coeffs are wrong, it works very poorly w/ Reclock, its scaler gives ghost lines on ATi cards, no CMS whatsoever, it cannot keep up w/ 60fps streams, etc etc...

Superlatives there seems a bit subjective (i.e. it is better but not "far better")

OK, I'm on Nvidia here. Practically no problems with HR whatsoever. Besides, even though mVR is better, it is still:


closed source
very slow development
no subs



Well I did have hopes for mVR, but lol, it is still technically in beta stage and having just one build released per half a year means development is nearly stalled.

[Mark_A_W]

While I don't disagree with the other comments Egh..

Subs work in madVR with DirectVobSub (aka VSfilter).

[Keiyakusha]

Quite honestly, when you see all that mVR offers(it's dead smooth for me in 48Hz, far smoother and sharper than HR by a long shot, Kazuya can confirm)...there's really no more reason to use HR: its REC601/709 YUY2 coeffs are wrong, it works very poorly w/ Reclock, its scaler gives ghost lines on ATi cards, no CMS whatsoever, it cannot keep up w/ 60fps streams

Well, as for me... HR is exactly what I need.
mVR is too slow for me, I can't watch anything smoothly with it. And doesn't supports subtitles rendering.
Coeffs... I can live with that, I don't like/use reclock, I don't like/use ATI but anyway scaling is done by FFDshow, less than 1% of my streams is at 60 fps. So I don't want to believe that HR doesn't have any future...

[leeperry]

sure, if you don't care for proper colors or uber-smoothness, HR can fit the bill(there's other bugs in HR I forgot about I think..but it doesn't matter) :)

You can also get ghost lines on nvidia BTW(I have a GF9600), there's a bug in a PS script sum(1.0 when 0.98 should be expected).

I still rest my case that in 48Hz mVR is *FAR* smoother(Kazuya and other smoothness-OCD'ed ppl can concur) and much sharper...it's really amazing, all those movies I've watched w/ HR when they could have looked so much smoother/sharper in mVR :(

ah well, same for audio as I'm currently upgrading my set up(Burson Audio HA-160 headphones amplifier, etc)....all those records I have to listen all over again to hear what I've been missing, nasty upgraditis http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/zabrak.gif

both HR/mVR are closed source, and I hardly ever watch subbed movies...when I do, ffdshow does the trick nicely(subs are blurry but well, it does work)

and Kazuya is very fond of the upscaling algorithms built into mVR, maybe he'll chime in to tell us more about it.

[Keiyakusha]

The main thing, that you talking not about smoothness, but "super" smoothness. If the GPU is able to run mVR + stuff like Aero and there is still left some room - then mVR is the good choice. In other cases HR is the way to go. To be clear, I don't want to see HR vs mVR fight, I want to see HR as a good renderer with lower system requirements.

[Kazuya]

Well I don't try HR with Aero, but madVR is incredible !
My Z4 is changed into a VW60 killer projector !!! :p
HR looks so dusty in comparison...

And madVR isn't achieved ! Can't wait for the next release ! :D

[leeperry]

The main thing, that you talking not about smoothness, but "super" smoothness. If the GPU is able to run mVR + stuff like Aero and there is still left some room - then mVR is the good choice. In other cases HR is the way to go. To be clear, I don't want to see HR vs mVR fight, I want to see HR as a good renderer with lower system requirements.
Yes, mVR is FAR smoother than HR(w/ Reclock), and includes a full color management system...and I can't seem to be able to explain why, but the PQ is also much sharper, HR looks blurry(or "dusty" as Kazuya said) in comparison.

Anyway, I'm really not trolling here...I was simply telling you that there -most likely- won't be any change made to HR, as you were asking about the PS3 scaler being reenabled.

I don't use Aero, I'm XP resilient...I'm not willing to waste CPU/GPU cycles for a retarded GUI and zillions of useless background processes hogging my system.

Maybe you could try this freeware app? it's meant to temporarily close all the useless background stuff(and God knows there's a HELL lot of it on W7/Vista): Game Booster (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cowcotland.com%2Fnews%2F17431%2Frapide-test-du-logiciel-game-booster.html&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

[Egh]

Well, as for me... HR is exactly what I need.
mVR is too slow for me, I can't watch anything smoothly with it. And doesn't supports subtitles rendering.
Coeffs... I can live with that, I don't like/use reclock, I don't like/use ATI but anyway scaling is done by FFDshow, less than 1% of my streams is at 60 fps.

We have so much in common! :rolleyes: well practically all same for me, though I don't have any troubles with GPU power. However, to be honest, it is better to keep them on minimum power unless gaming, and that what I use even for 1080p videos.



While I don't disagree with the other comments Egh..

Subs work in madVR with DirectVobSub (aka VSfilter).

There's an ages old rule called Occam's razor. MPCHC has almost same code but renders it in a better quality, iirc. So why to use anything else if only video player I use is mpchc?

Well I don't try HR with Aero, but madVR is incredible !
My Z4 is changed into a VW60 killer projector !!! :p
HR looks so dusty in comparison...
And madVR isn't achieved ! Can't wait for the next release ! :D
Well officially HR is not archieved either. Unless I missed that somehow... Besides, not all viewers use projectors where difference is visible. Not even mentioning that most videos hardly justify even HD resolution (i.e. I mean alot of TV broadcast uses upscaled videos).

[leeperry]

mVR is not exactly a GPU hog on a rebadged 8800GS/384MB: http://thumbnails18.imagebam.com/5880/e2399458790831.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e2399458790831)

[Mark_A_W]

There's an ages old rule called Occam's razor. MPCHC has almost same code but renders it in a better quality, iirc. So why to use anything else if only video player I use is mpchc?

Well officially HR is not archieved either. Unless I missed that somehow... Besides, not all viewers use projectors where difference is visible. Not even mentioning that most videos hardly justify even HD resolution (i.e. I mean alot of TV broadcast uses upscaled videos).

Well, I'll take a better, smoother image over subtitle quality anyday.
There aren't that many movies with forced subtitles, and I only occasionally watch non-english films.

And I only watch Bluray, HD-DVD, or HDTV on my projector. TV is for the TV! I'm such a HD snob. Luckily, almost all my favourite films are available on HD now.

[leeperry]

well, my GPU-Z screenshot was on XP SP3...from what I've seen Aero is hogging GPU's, so maybe that's what they meant.

even on my 19" CRT, I can see that mVR is smoother(in 96.000Hz+Reclock).

[flanger216]

There's an ages old rule called Occam's razor. MPCHC has almost same code but renders it in a better quality, iirc. So why to use anything else if only video player I use is mpchc?

Err... Occam's razor is a logical dictate stating that the simplest solution to any given problem is most likely the correct one, in that sensitivity to pluralities and irrelevant nuance is a human failing and not a useful property to logical deduction. It argues for simplicity, but contrary to popular belief, it does not argue for reduction. In other words, it has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

You're faced with the following problem: you can get better sub rendering from MPC-HC's renderers, you can get better video quality from madVR, but you can't get both. Logical simplicity is irrelevant when faced with matters of preference, so it all depends on what you want. In fact, if you're goal is to get the best video quality possible, Occam's razor would actually advise in favor of madVR, because worrying about superfluous sub renderers is really just a distracting equivocation.

[Egh]

Err... Occam's razor is a logical dictate stating that the simplest solution to any given problem is most likely the correct one, in that sensitivity to pluralities and irrelevant nuance is a human failing and not a useful property to logical deduction. It argues for simplicity, but contrary to popular belief, it does not argue for reduction. In other words, it has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

You're faced with the following problem: you can get better sub rendering from MPC-HC's renderers, you can get better video quality from madVR, but you can't get both. Logical simplicity is irrelevant when faced with matters of preference, so it all depends on what you want. In fact, if you're goal is to get the best video quality possible, Occam's razor would actually advise in favor of madVR, because worrying about superfluous sub renderers is really just a distracting equivocation.

I disagree :p Besides, Occam's razor in layman's terms would be to not multiply entities beyond necessity. I already have MPCHC with subrenderer. If mVR doesn't support it, then it is on hold until it does.

As for smoothness -- HR smoothness is more than I need if I use my CRT @ 85Hz. I don't use projectors though and I don't have a need to do so. For non-movie sources, difference in quality doesn't even justify any change a priori.

And to sum up, real problem is that both renderers are bad, as they are underdeveloped closed source made by a one-programmer team.

How hard can it be to develop a video renderer? :P

[Mark_A_W]

Nothing will be smooth at 85hz.

[clsid]

Increasing the rendering resolution in DirectVobSub can help to increase sub quality.

[leeperry]

How hard can it be to develop a video renderer? :P
prolly always the same m$ bs? lot of undocumented stuff that you need to find out by yourself, and a poor original design that needs a lot of time/skills and imagination to fix?

Haali worked on VMR9, so he's prolly gained some knowledge "from the inside", but madshi went from scratch..see how far he went in just a couple of beta versions http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/images/smilies/headshot.gif

and yes, 85Hz is up to no good...try 89.910/96.000Hz

[Egh]

prolly always the same m$ bs? lot of undocumented stuff that you need to find out by yourself, and a poor original design that needs a lot of time/skills and imagination to fix?

Haali worked on VMR9, so he's prolly gained some knowledge "from the inside", but madshi went from scratch..see how far he went in just a couple of beta versions

Yop, and then all the development even in spite of most obvious interface bugs was suspended for 3-4 months. Things are simple -- no open source, no stability and predictability. What if a new update for let's say W7 is out, and both HR and mVR dont' work then? Waiting for months before such an issue is resolved ... That is why I'm inclined to say that *both* are bad :D

upd: btw Haali's website is apparently down today. That is exactly what I mean, actually...

[madshi]

And to sum up, real problem is that both renderers are bad, as they are underdeveloped closed source made by a one-programmer team.
You're free to use whatever renderer you want, but judging software based on whether it's closed or open source is just plain stupid. :rolleyes:

[BetaBoy]

You're free to use whatever renderer you want, but judging software based on whether it's closed or open source is just plain stupid. :rolleyes:

Agreed.

[leeperry]

no open source, no stability and predictability. What if a new update for let's say W7 is out, and both HR and mVR dont' work then?
name some open source VR..KMP is able to use plain D3D surfaces as VR:

http://thumbnails21.imagebam.com/5974/eb03ab59733487.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/eb03ab59733487)

but KMP isn't open-source either.

[Keiyakusha]

Yes, mVR is FAR smoother than HR(w/ Reclock), and includes a full color management system...and I can't seem to be able to explain why, but the PQ is also much sharper, HR looks blurry(or "dusty" as Kazuya said) in comparison.

Anyway, I'm really not trolling here...I was simply telling you that there -most likely- won't be any change made to HR, as you were asking about the PS3 scaler being reenabled.

I don't use Aero, I'm XP resilient...I'm not willing to waste CPU/GPU cycles for a retarded GUI and zillions of useless background processes hogging my system.

Maybe you could try this freeware app? it's meant to temporarily close all the useless background stuff(and God knows there's a HELL lot of it on W7/Vista): Game Booster (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cowcotland.com%2Fnews%2F17431%2Frapide-test-du-logiciel-game-booster.html&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
Sorry for really late response, I missed your post for some reason...
Game Booster is a nice software, but unlikely it can free some GPU resources. The processes that it terminates seems not related to GPU.
Unfortunately I can't test anything now. I just discovered that for some reason when madvr starts and/or ends its work everything hangs for a few minutes so I even can't move my mouse. Maybe I need to update it or something. I think this started to happen after drivers update. I'll check this later.
And aero... I can disable it when the player starts, I think this is no big deal. However with its vsync I have smoother result when using renderers other than madvr. By the way not sure about cycles, but using GPU-Z i can see that aero can eat up to 128mb video memory with just few windows open (no video, games or something).

And to sum up, real problem is that both renderers are bad, as they are underdeveloped closed source made by a one-programmer team.

Well... one programmer is not necessarily bad thing. And closed source... I think its also can be good, but yes only when its feature rich and bug free, which isn't the case here.

[namaiki]

HR looks blurry(or "dusty" as Kazuya said) in comparison.
Atifacts from sharpening with Bicubic resizer?

Is that with default settings for the Bicubic resizer or have you tried tweaking it?

I just discovered that for some reason when madvr starts and/or ends its work everything hangs for a few minutes so I even can't move my mouse.

Same for me.. (Geforce 9600M GT, Forceware 186.88)

At the start, when it's 'frozen', press the start key on your keyboard a few times(switches focus from media player to start menu and vice versa), and that will unfreeze it for me. :p

At the end, I use taskkill, and the RAM still appears to be taken back from the program.

[leeperry]

Artifacts from sharpening with Bicubic resizer?
we both used it in NN mode(1:1, scaling disabled)...actually it's dead obvious that mVR is sharper & smoother(using Reclock in 48/50.000Hz), HR and HMS suffer from jitter...the delivery time is not spot-on, it goes around the clock and the VSYNC fliptime.

even HMS makes mVR lose track after 45/60 mins(even in MPC), the internal KMP MKV splitter can play 2H movies w/o a glitch...Haali doesn't care for Reclock support, and it shows..luckily KMP's MKV splitter works like a charm(and also supports FLAC/subs/etc...)

well, a wild guess would be that HR seems to be doing some slight sample and hold...anyway it's not as sharp and looks blurry, maybe the reason is somewhere else, you can do so many things w/ PS scripts...

madshi discussed it here: technical question: sample-and-hold effect? - AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=802850)

basically DLP's don't seem to do any sample & hold...but tLCD's do, which gives an impression of smoother but it's actually blurrier(you can play around w/ the frame rate doublers in ffdshow to see what I mean)

I personally cannot stand tLCD pj's as all their cons are deal breakers for me(misconvergence/vertical banding/shading/etc), I've always been told about MDA(Motion Dithering Artifacts) on DLP...well, it's said to look like black "cell shading-like" outlines around fast moving objects, but I've never been able to see anything like that on my Mitsu HC910/1100/3100..but I think Mitsu is known to be one of the companies that handles DLP the best(Toshiba being pretty bad, their "HD2+ Mustang" chip pj's like the MT700 would suffer from terrible banding...the Mitsu HC1100 using the same chip is completely untouched). But I can also notice mVR's smoothness edge on my 19" CRT(and Kazuya too on his LCD monitor in 29.97fps@60Hz).

I also use LSF in ffdshow to sharpen up the motion blur, it looks so good :)

PS: it could also be due to the chroma being softer in mVR, which gives the impression of a sharper luma maybe?

[Mark_A_W]

Leeperry

Do you know if the KMP splitter is able to be used as an external filter?

I'd like to try it in Zoom Player.

[leeperry]

You'd need to extract it from the .exe...I tried several methods, but failed. And maybe it'd still be locked to KMP..maybe coz they hacked it from Gabest :p

[Mark_A_W]

I tried the MPC HC Gabest splitter but it didn't work well at all with mkvs.

[namaiki]

I tried the MPC HC Gabest splitter but it didn't work well at all with mkvs.

What specifically? I'm just curious because I've never really tried it..

[leeperry]

I tried the MPC HC Gabest splitter but it didn't work well at all with mkvs.
well, I was just kidding...but KMP is known to use stolen code from MPC, and they embedded the splitter within the exe so noone could look into it...maybe there's a good reason ;)

anyway, you're also a Reclock addict and tried both mVR/HR...what's your take on it? both are just as smooth to you in 96Hz on your three eyed monster?