Haali Renderer

[bmcgs]

Sorry for the typo, it is really the 169.21! :)

I'll check it out tonight at home but I'm pretty sure that VMR9 renderless might be a problem of only ZP, but I remember that HR also crashes with MPC. I use ZP because I can have specific graphs for specific file formats and also because I cannot disable the resize function in MPC when using VMR, otherwise I'd use it... I'll get back as soon as I have a conclusion.

One last thing I'd like to know - besides the video card drivers, is there anything else that might interfere with your renderer? Codecs, DirectShow merits, etc?... And finally, the beta version of the nvidia drivers it seems that it aims to upgrade the SLI performance in crisys...

Thank you!

[clsid]

If a DirectShow filter would be the cause then typically the problems would occur with all video renderers, not just specific renderers.

Changelogs for the drivers are always very incomplete. Just try the driver. If it doesn't solve the problem, then you can also revert back to 169.21.

[bmcgs]

Hi there! You were absolutely right, the new beta drivers don't cause any problems in full screen using HR or VMR9! Thank you very much for your answer.

One question that I wasn't able to see in this long thread - you use bicubic resizing in the renderer to the resolution of the screen, if I understood correctly.

So I guess that someone who uses ffdshow to resize could bypass this option in this filter (if one doesn't want to apply different resize algorithms or filters afterwards). Is it possible to tell the renderer to respect (or not) aspect ratio of the video being rendered on the fly or at least previously?

[B.Slisk]

Haali renderer will not resize a video stream if it has the same resolution as the screen output.

So if you resize to the same resolution as the desktop using ffdshow then Haali renderer wont do a bicubic resize when you play it to full screen.

If you need to change the aspect ratio I suggest you use ffdshow to do so. AFAIK Haali renderer does not have an option to enable or disable aspect ratio correction, so changes to aspect ratio will have to be done earlier in the chain.

[bmcgs]

Ok, i'll do that with ffdshow then. Nevertheless resizing to the same resolution as the screen is ok if you have the option to respect the original aspect ratio or not. Notice that with ZP it is easier to build a custom graph and add ffdshow raw filter after any mpeg2 decoder, something I wasn't able to do with MPC or WMP.

Perhaps there is something I missed during these tryouts but I abandoned MPC due to the resize issue of not respecting AR.

[leeperry]

any chance getting some feedback from Haali on this one :)

or if I force RGB32HQ BT601 from ffdshow for SD material, and keep HR in BT709 with YUY2 frames......would that work out nicely ?

I was wondering if Haali could check a few things :

1)-provide automatic 601/709 depending on the movie resolution. something like >1000 horizontal pixels : BT709, and <1000 : BT601.

right now, it's my ATI drivers that do this job with EVR, and it's very handy to have it done automatically.

2)-check the BT709 matrix.....because my ATI drivers do not use the same as HR....and theirs looks better IMHO, a bit more yellow/green.

here's with HR in 709 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/119910234672d428.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/72d4282077994)

with HR in 601 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/11991023461bb895.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/1bb8952077995)

with my ATI drivers with EVR in automatic 709 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/11991023471f79f4.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/1f79f42077996)

3)-accepting YV12 as input like EVR, so there's no lossy YV12>YUY2 conversion.

all in all I love HR, but it's very annoying to switch manually between 601/709 when it could be automatic.....and the BT709 matrix doesn't look as natural as the ATI's.

Thank you for your time,

[KAnycTA]

I am using MPC HC with haali renderer (vsfilter.dll autoload - on) and when i am playing .mkv or .ogm file with internal subtitles they are selected by default. Is it possible to set external subtitles by default?

[flyersfan1970]

I built a new PC and installed Vista x64 - it's driving me nuts.

I can't seem to figure out how to get MPC to work with Haali and play a DVD (either from disc or from the hdd) without the "Macrovision fail" error. I wouldn't care so much if I didn't need subtitles - they don't work at all with any other renderer.

If someone can explain exactly how to get Haali to work, or to get subtitles working on a DVD with another renderer in MPC, I'd really appreciate it.

[Mangix]

use a different decoder? ffdshow with the DVD Decoding option works wonderfully

[flyersfan1970]

use a different decoder? ffdshow with the DVD Decoding option works wonderfully

I get the same "DVD: Macrovision fail" error.

To be sure I'm doing this right - I've unchecked MPEG-2 video in the Internal filters section of MPC. I have CCCP installed so I open the ffdshow video decoder configuration, select MPEG2 in the codec options, change it to either libavcodec or libmpeg2, and check the DVD decoding box.

Mangix - are you also running Vista x64? I can't help but wonder if that's my stumbling block.

For now I just open .IFO files with WMP11. Subtitles and all other DVD functionality works fine.

[Mangix]

nope. i have 32-bit vista

[Ingram]

Vista doesn't seem to like Haali for DVD's. I get the same error. Works with EVR. But when I try Haali Renderer I get the macrovision error on a disc that doesn't even have Macrovision.

Go figure.

[Peuj]

same for me.

[pancserzso]

There is a but with MPC-HC + Haali when playing DVD's, in XP. It simply shutters a lot. The frames are always set to 4.
Doesn't matter what I do, it goes back to 4 after I click OK.

No problem with avi's, mkv's using the same combination.

[Yong]

dvd playback work for me with HVR, only if im using ffdshow for dvd playback + hardware deinterlacing :p

other decoders like microsoft mpeg2 decoder, mpc internal mpeg2 decoder and cyberlink dvd decoder will get "Macrovision Fail" on mpc-hc :(

[chros]

New version is out today ! Thank, Haali!

changelog: http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

[vortex_hl]

New version is out today ! Thank, Haali!

changelog: http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/
ghost lines issue still there. :(
it's not hard to fix. only some coefficients need to change.

http://mpc-hc.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/mpc-hc?view=rev&revision=380

[leeperry]

yes, indeed still a lot of ghost lines when SS resize is done, with an HD2600 on XP :(

doesn't seem to occur with AA resize.

I've talked to Casimir666, he told me that he changed something in the PS resize of MPC HC from 1.0 to 0.98 and they disappeared ?!

it seems that the PS resizes of MPC were written by Haali.

anyhow, HR is smoother than ever.........even than EVR :)

hope Haali can fix the ghost lines :(

thanks for all your hard work Haali!

[Kado]

There is a but with MPC-HC + Haali when playing DVD's, in XP. It simply shutters a lot. The frames are always set to 4.
Doesn't matter what I do, it goes back to 4 after I click OK.

No problem with avi's, mkv's using the same combination.

It's not a bug, the renderer forces the minimum possible settings otherwise the DVD menus would not work.

@Haali

Thanks for this new build!

[leeperry]

this is NN(no resizing from HR) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/b/9/c/211678e1e848468f925b3d7329c24tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/b/9/c/211678e1e848468f925b3d7329c24.html)

this is SS(bicubic PS resize) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/7/e/5/b81b2569d33639dc8c0f276cab4e8tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/7/e/5/b81b2569d33639dc8c0f276cab4e8.html)

AA is not affected.

or if you could just disable the "S" resize so "A" is always used instead ?

or give an option to choose, because it seems that S works fine on nvidia, but not on ATi :(

it would be awesome if you could fix it Haali :thanks:

[pancserzso]

It's not a bug, the renderer forces the minimum possible settings otherwise the DVD menus would not work.


OK, I understand.

I think there is still a bug, but it is with MPC, if i just drag and drop a video_ts folder then sometime it's shuttering, if I open from the file menu, then not.

In the future, I think you could implement a different way for menu buffering, for example to manually disable buffering at all using a keystroke for example. Even with 4 frames it's still slow as hell compared to other renderers, and for the movie part it could be more than 4 frames.

[TheShadowRunner]

Haali installer is absolutely horrible.
Screws with icons association, adds "play" in context menu and associates mkv, ogm and all selected types to be played with WMP.
I really wish it came in a ZIP file with 2 or 3 .bat files to register needed filters/dlls and that's it.
Each time I install a new Haali, i must clean up the mess for 20 minutes :/

[fastplayer]

Haali installer is absolutely horrible.
I complained a few times about that but it has fallen on deaf ears unfortunately... :(
You should've posted in here by the way:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=80762

[iron2000]

Regarding the auto colorspace selection.
If the video is upscaled by ffdshow, will the auto selection work properly?

Haali upscaling really sucks on my PC, theres this ghost grid on the scaled picture. Downscaling is fine.

[cyberbeing]

Regarding the auto colorspace selection.
If the video is upscaled by ffdshow, will the auto selection work properly?

Haali upscaling really sucks on my PC, theres this ghost grid on the scaled picture. Downscaling is fine.

If it's upscaled to above 1024 in width, the answer to that would be no. Anytime your resize with ffdshow, Haali renderer uses whatever you resize it to as the new source dimensions. The VMR renderers behave the same way afaik.

[chros]

Regarding the auto colorspace selection.
If the video is upscaled by ffdshow, will the auto selection work properly?
It's a good catch ! I haven't thought of it ...
But, it can't be perfect: think of a standard resolution (640*352) xvid hdtv rip ...

[leeperry]

use RGB32/BT601 for upscaled SD

ok I got friggin sick of tired of the buggy EVR support in MPC HC(randomly missing the VSYNC after 30/60'), I'm back with HR on KMPlayer.......it simply works :D

hope Haali can offer an option to switch between PS and AF in his renderer, so we can switch it off for ATi cards.....in order to get rid of the ghost lines :)

[Hary]

Is there a way now to get rid of this ghost lines, or does it has to be fixed in renderer?

[rijnton]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before, but doing a quick search I couldn't find anything related in this thread.
I use Haali's Video Renderer in combination with MPC (Home Cinema) also for DVD playback and it works fine, except for the menus in a lot of dvd's. I mean, when I open a dvd I get the menu and have to select, for instance, "Play", or "Special Features" with the cursor. But when I click on the menu item, nothing happens. The only way to select it is by right clicking in MPC and choose Navigate>Jump To and select the title. When I change the video renderer in MPC to Overlay Mixer instead of HVR however, then the menus do work. Is there something I can do to get it working in HVR ?

[leeperry]

ALT+cursor keys and space ;)

that's because the DVD navigator DLL is not properly used in MPC HC I think.

[rijnton]

ALT+cursor keys and space ;)



Thanks leeperry. Woks great indeed.

But why don't I have this problem when I use Overlay Mixer instead of HVR ? (Btw, I do prefer HVR).

[leeperry]

I like EVR because it does unsharp masking....which HR doesn't do.

but the EVR support in MPC HC is not stable at all.....so if only Haali could fix the ghost lines problems, that would be MARVELOUS :)

I'm big enough to do unsharp masking in ffdshow :D

well MPC HC doesn't "map" the DVD menus properly with HR or EVR.....god knows why :D

[wiak]

use RGB32/BT601 for upscaled SD

ok I got friggin sick of tired of the buggy EVR support in MPC HC(randomly missing the VSYNC after 30/60'), I'm back with HR on KMPlayer.......it simply works :D

hope Haali can offer an option to switch between PS and AF in his renderer, so we can switch it off for ATi cards.....in order to get rid of the ghost lines :)
:stupid:
the lines are annoying on ati cards, i have a HD 3200 onboard graphics card (yes its a Onboard graphics card not a IGP) :P
i get the same on a 3870 and an X1800 if i can recall

please fix it!it happend some months ago and it affects ALL ati cards and its bad.

[KoD]

What ghost lines? I don't see anything like that here. Are you sure it's not caused by something else you guys are using?

[leeperry]

well they are ghosts, you're not supposed to see them if you don't call them 3 times in a row watching a bathroom mirror :D

open HR OSD, if you have an ATi card you will get them if any of the 2 letters of the resize is S(internal bicubic PS resize).

see here : http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1119336&postcount=1020

also the BT.709 matrix of HR is not saturated enough, but I use RGB32 to overcome this problem :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1081395&postcount=971

it's not yellow enough I think.....the ATi drivers and ffdshow give the same results..........HR is less saturated.

[iron2000]

I have those ghost lines too, for a long time.
Its been mentioned here many times before.

Using ATI HD2600Pro.
I just use ffdshow's resize, ghost lines for MPC and HR resizers as they are written by the same person.

[leeperry]

I also resize w/ ffdshow, but I can't use the pan&scan options of MPC/KMP as they kick in the PS resize of HR :(

[leeperry]

anyone ever getting a corrupt mouse pointer randomly on XP SP2 with HR and an ATi card ?

never happened w/ EVR.

I got HR set to 256 mb/256 frames...and my graphic card is 256 mb

maybe that's the problem :D

gonna try with 200/200 :eek:

[Kado]

@leeperry
I recommend a setting of 128mb and 120frames for your system.
After some testing with my previous card (6800gs 256mb) if I put anything over 140mb it would drop frames on the heavier parts of the video stream but with 128mb It would run smooth. Now with my 9800gtx 512mb even with 256mb runs ok. The problem maybe was the vista's video memory management, it uses both dedicated and system memory for graphics even if your gpu does not have that "turbo cache" stuff from nvidia that makes the gpu use additional system memory for graphics! Or maybe not!

[cyberbeing]

also the BT.709 matrix of HR is not saturated enough, but I use RGB32 to overcome this problem :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1081395&postcount=971

it's not yellow enough I think.....the ATi drivers and ffdshow give the same results..........HR is less saturated.

FFDshow BT.709 conversion HQ-RGB32 output, Haali (1920x1080 3MB png)
http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/RGB_thumb.png (http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/rgbv2.png)

FFDshow YUY2 output, Haali BT.709 conversion (1920x1080 3MB png)
http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/yuy2_thumb.png (http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/yuy2v2.png)

I have an nVidia 7800GTX 512 and you would be hard pressed to see much of a difference between those images (edit: they are now identical frames). That tells me that Haali Renderer and FFDshow use a standard method for BT.709 conversion. I would say that what your seeing either has something to do with LUT (if your display is calibrated) or your ATI hardware is doing BT.709 conversion incorrectly.

[leeperry]

well in my tests, ffdshow and the ATi drivers use the exact same 709 matrix....but HR is not as saturated :devil:

my displays(19" iiyama CRT and HC3100 Mitsubishi DLP pj) are carefully D65 calibrated with an Eye One Display 2 sensor + ARGYLLCMS/Color.HCFR

your screenshots look nice, but the colors are not saturated at all.

I could run more tests with that scene from Final Fantasy Advent Children(and make a sample so you can see it w/ your own eyes) but well, does it matter ?.....coz Haali doesn't care, and a quick fix is to output RGB32 from ffdshow :D

this would already be a god's gift to finally get a fix for the ghost lines on ATi....I've been whining about that since forever :(

@Kado: thanks for the tip, just tried your suggested settings with Reclock in 24.000fps + pstrip in 48.000Hz

this was smoother than E-V-E-R with KMPlayer :eek:

hopefully this will also fix my mouse pointer random corruption :)

[cyberbeing]

well in my tests, ffdshow and my ATi drivers use the exact same 709 matrix....and HR is not as saturated.

my displays(19" iiyama CRT and HC3100 Mitsubishi DLP pj) are carefully D65 calibrated with an Eye One Display 2 sensor + ARGYLLCMS/Color.HCFR

you screenshots look nice, but the colors are not saturated at all.


Well it is a static frame except for the light on top which flickers and I didn't notice they weren't the same until I posted. I updated the images in my previous post to be the same frame and the new file names are rgbv2.png and yuy2v2.png.

Here is another screen shot using FFDshow HQ-RGB BT.709 and EVR:
http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/evrrgb_thumb.png (http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/evrrgb.png)
It also looks virtually identical to the other two.

Haali Renderer takes calibration (LUT) into effect but EVR probably doesn't where you are seeing the difference (nVidia hardware for example only takes lut into effect for RGB but not YV12 and YUY2 on VMR/EVR renderers afaik). What you are calling unsaturated colors are actually your calibrated and accurate colors while the saturated colors are uncalibrated colors. I should also note that when you output YV12 to Haali renderer it converts to YUY2 in hardware (because it doesn't support YV12) so maybe that's why you see a difference.

[leeperry]

all the renderers take the LUT into consideration, except for OVERLAY.

and the difference is identical on my HC3100 pj, which is calibrated through its own menus.....I send a regular LUT on its HDMI input.

anyway, HR doesn't accept YV12 AT ALL.....my player will revert to another renderer if I don't send YUY2 or RGB32.

I could make a sample....but as I said, Haali doesn't give a damn anyway :D

[cyberbeing]

Your right about the YV12 and LUT thing. VSFilter was doing a conversion from YV12 to YUY2 and I just did a test and LUT does seem to be working properly on VMR renders (they must have fixed it in a recent driver because it was an issue a year or so ago).

All I'm saying is that the issue doesn't exist with my 7800GTX 512 on my calibrated Sony GDM-F520 (reference quality CRT monitor) connected via BNC. FFDShow, Haali Renderer, and nVidia hardware BT.709 conversion are all identical and there is no noticeable difference of brightness, saturation, color, or gamma between any of them. That makes your problem look like either an ATI specific issue or some configuration problem on your end.

Remember that Haali is just one guy and he probably isn't all that thrilled with the idea of spending who knows how many hours to try to work around all the problems that recent ATI hardware is causing with his renderer especially considering this isn't his full time job and is something he's doing for free (probably originally for his own use but decided to share it with everyone). I'm sure it doesn't really motivate him when he hears you say he doesn't give a damn. Kindness and patience can go a long way. If Haali can reproduce the problem then I'm sure he will get around to fixing the problem eventually. Now if he can't reproduce it or he doesn't own an ATI card then I think hopes of him fixing it anytime soon would be slim.

[leeperry]

there's a saturation difference between ffdshow in RGB32/BT709 and HR in YUY2/BT709.

not related to my graphic card because HR is seen as a 3D application, and not a video renderer to my ATi drivers.....

I could make a sample so you can see it for yourself :D

Haali is known to be THE first rate expert when it comes to PC video rendering.....hence his renderer that talks directly to the graphic card and offers the smoothest playback on PC ever(matched w/ Reclock + pstrip) :eek:

his PS script for bicubic resizing didn't work with ATi in MPC, and neither does it in HR.

some funky incompatibility with the new ATi drivers :(

anyhow, Casimir666 fixed it easily in MPC HC(after I harassed him repeatedly :D ) by changing a PS sum from 1.0 to 0.98....then the ghost lines disappeared

if Haali could offer an option to disable the built-in PS resize and let the AF do the upscaling job(as it does already for downscaling)...........that would be the shiznit :eek:

I've been telling Haali for this issue since forever :(

[clsid]

Everyone that experiences this problem should report it to ATi. If enough people complain, then maybe they will finally fix their drivers.

[leeperry]

arfster has been contacting them for PC/TV range issues............they are making a foul of him :eek:

AMD is on a tight rope at this point, their goal is to improve their 3DMark and Crysis scores I guess :D

[Shinigami-Sama]

Everyone that experiences this problem should report it to ATi. If enough people complain, then maybe they will finally fix their drivers.

isn't ATI laying off 10% of their staff this quarter?
if so I kinda doubt it...

[clsid]

I can imagine that they get hundreds of bogus bug reports. So the key is to make a report that stands out of the rest. Maybe include those few lines of shader code from MPC (with original parameters, before the 'workaround') that trigger the bug. That code is the same, at at least similar to what is used in Haali's renderer.

[leeperry]

problem is the same in KMPlayer if you enable the PS2.0 bicubic resize...........considering it's a hack of MPC, it's pretty logical :D

anyway I like HR because it's smooth, but EVR does very nice unsharp masking, that literally makes the picture jump off the screen :eek:

look how sharp EVR is (it's a thumbnail) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/c/d/7/6cd26ab6a8e899b920e48a092a471tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/c/d/7/6cd26ab6a8e899b920e48a092a471.html)