Haali Renderer

[neoufo51]

When I use Haali Renderer on MPC to play back a high definition H.264 file such as a Quicktime trailer or an MKV contained film, I get a huge video slowdown whenever I right click the video to bring up the context menu onscreen. One I left click anywhere else to get rid of the context menu, the slowdown goes away.

Anybody else experiencing this?
Would anybody like to comment on my earlier question, which I've quoted?

[cca]

humm, interesting.
gonna ask a friend on HCFR who's a long time HR user, he just bought one.

but the problem is in the drivers, I think you didn't look hard enough :D

does it say "S" or "SS" in HR's OSD ?

It was "SS" for sure. I use HR for a long time now, but until recently I had an Nvidia 8800GTS. Still, with Catalyst 8.7 beta on my ATi 4850 I failed to notice artifacts like ghosting or wrong zooming. It could be the drivers, can't argue with that, I'm just mentioning my experiences.

[leeperry]

@neoufo51 : did you update to the latest Windows SP ?
update all your drivers(chipset as well)
I've never ever heard of this problem :eek:

@cca : I'll wait for my friend's feedback and I'll get back to you.
but that'd be good news :)

zooming in MPC is centered ?!

[cca]

@cca : I'll wait for my friend's feedback and I'll get back to you.
but that'd be good news :)

zooming in MPC is centered ?!

I specifically tried zooming in and out since I read your post, and it was just fine. I did all tests in my LG 32" TV, the image is big enough for anyone to notice potential problems.

[leeperry]

/me is off to install 8.7 beta drivers :D

[cca]

Be warned, some ppl reported BSODs with these. I didn't have problems, but not one system is the same with another after all. Good luck.

[tekNerd]

Ok, this is my info:
Processore: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz (2999 MHz)
Sistema operativo: Microsoft Windows XP (Service Pack 2)
Versione DirectX: 9.0c
Videocard: Geforce PCX 5750
Versione ForceWare: 174.74
Memoria: 256 MB
Versione BIOS video: 4.36.20.41.32
IRQ: 24
Bus: PCI Express x16

I am using this beta cause the latest stable is breaking my dualview setup.

[fastplayer]

Would anybody like to comment on my earlier question, which I've quoted?
Disable AA.

[leeperry]

ok so thanks to clsid's voodoo magic(thank you so much grandmaster!! :D), the ghost lines problem seems to have improved on low amplitude scaling with the 8.7beta, but not gone.

this is with some zoom :

http://pix.nofrag.com/8/e/a/9140eff88ff4d9fc67b8d50096d8btt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/8/e/a/9140eff88ff4d9fc67b8d50096d8b.html)

and this is with a bit more :

http://pix.nofrag.com/8/5/1/f6a22cb50e9e2d3abf4b2cf882a46tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/8/5/1/f6a22cb50e9e2d3abf4b2cf882a46.html)

and zoom is still up in the sky even with the 8.7beta drivers, this is a problem on the HR side maybe ?

original :

http://pix.nofrag.com/0/1/1/3b9c78f1860709a291e6ab0b64be8tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/0/1/1/3b9c78f1860709a291e6ab0b64be8.html)

zoomed :

http://pix.nofrag.com/4/9/d/ee6e2aecfd2e0b582143e68314f2ett.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/4/9/d/ee6e2aecfd2e0b582143e68314f2e.html)

the same file in YUY2 instead of RGB32HQ(no filters enabled in ffdshow, simply decoding>YUY2, picture is perfectly fine in VMR9) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/4/b/4/c2fc52b62fb612e42393e53f26e84tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/4/b/4/c2fc52b62fb612e42393e53f26e84.html)

[cca]

leeperry, I have no idea what's causing your problems, I only feed YUY2 in HR, and never had such a weird problem with my nvidia, or my current ATi card. It scales the image properly, and zooms properly too. But in the end, we don't have the same card or OS.

[leeperry]

yeah I dunno why YUY2 looks funky like that, will try some older version of ffdshow.....but when I see how fishy the REC709 matrix is in HR, I don't think I would trust its REC601 anyway :D

about the zoom issue, it's perfectly fine with VMR9, will ask my friend with the HD4850 :)

[neoufo51]

@neoufo51 : did you update to the latest Windows SP ?
update all your drivers(chipset as well)
I've never ever heard of this problem :eek:
I'm running SP3, I just updated the chipset, and I had the latest drivers from Nvidia.

I will try to disable AA as fastplayer suggested when I get home.

[Loul00]

First things first:I'd like to thank Haali and Gabest for this wonderful,wonderful software !

I've been following this thread for quite a while now since the HR has become my default renderer whenever possible .
HOWEVER,I'm growing slowly but surely angry about a few things.
My rig:
x2 4200+/x1650 xt;pwdvd 7.3,ZP using pwdvd codecs mostly(NO ffdshow or mpc-hd).
This configuration allowed me to watch anything in perfect conditions until dtshd-MA showed up (And PCM 24 Bits actually,cause of the bitrate).So I need an upgrade.CPU being compromised ,I have to look at the gpu.
I've been posponing the upgrade (I have in mind a HD 3650) because some people (Oui,je pense essentiellement à toi,Leeperry) have been flooding this thread with comments about the HR found wanting when it came to upscaling with radeo HD cards (Upscaling wich is performed without any single glitch by my x1650xt with 1.7.401.3 ).
But now,after reading cca comments ,something came to my mind (I know,I can be slow):

how many people having these ghost lines pbs (Among others)have also ffdshow and/or its flavours installed in their system ? Everybody,cca included ?

Because,could it be that all these pbs be caused by the presence of this troublemaker codec ? I must say I'm really intrigued and impatient.Thank you for your answers.

[clsid]

ffdshow has nothing to do with that issue.

[ranpha]

Somehow, I managed to eliminate the ghost line problem with my ATI IGP (780G) and HR, if I were to use ffdshow and resize the video to my monitor native res. With that, HR will use the NN instead of SS which results in no ghost lines.

http://pix.nofrag.com/2/f/d/91593820c007ed1e148ec18e3fb17tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/2/f/d/91593820c007ed1e148ec18e3fb17.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/f/1/a/86929354b0e9d0cd8ebaef994376btt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/f/1/a/86929354b0e9d0cd8ebaef994376b.html)
Resizing to monitor resolution also results in much sharper and better looking subtitles, which is an added boost.

[cca]

That is one way to do it, but results in high CPU usage, and renders one of the best HR features useless. But if you really want to use HR, I guess you're out of options if your hardware does not cooperate.

[Loul00]

cca,do you have some kind of ffdsshow installed and wich catalyst drivers are you using ? Thanks.

[cca]

I do have ffdshow, I update it often, at the moment I have revision 2020. Also, I use Catalyst 8.7 beta.

[clsid]

ffdshow has nothing to do with that issue.
I will repeat myself so you guys won't waste your time chasing ghosts.

The ghost lines problem with shader resize is purely caused by the driver/hardware. PERIOD.

[cca]

hehe, basically I know that clsid is absolutely right, but was too tired yesterday to type a long post. So I just replied to the question directly. Indeed, ffdshow or any other decoder, is totally irrelevant to the problem.

[ranpha]

That is one way to do it, but results in high CPU usage, and renders one of the best HR features useless. But if you really want to use HR, I guess you're out of options if your hardware does not cooperate.

What is the feature you are talking about? Another question, between S, SS, NN and AA, which one is the best?

It is true that ffdshow does not cause the problem, but it can help mitigate it, at high CPU usage of course.

[cca]

I am talking about it's bicubic scaler ofcourse. SS means it is using bicubic resizing to upscale the video utilizing the pixel shaders of the card. NN means no resize done, AA means anisotropic filtering (used to downscale the image). There are 2 letters, one for the horizontal aspect and one for the vertical.

[pitch.fr]

hello I have a HD4850 on Windows XP SP3.

the zoom is centered in YUY2, but not in RGB.

I also get the pesky ghost lines with horizontal resizing, but not with vertical I think.
Only solution is to upscale in ffdshow.

still I love HR, nobody's perfect eh ?

[pitch.fr]

is there any way to enable ICC color correction in full screen ?

it works in windowed mode, but it flips back to default in full screen :(

basically if there was a way to enable PS scripts in HR, we could use 3D LUT's to get 1:1 colors on bluray's :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1161652#post1161652

the native bluray gamut is SMPTE-C, due to the telecine studios that didn't update to HDTV

[yesgrey]

anyhow soon there will be a new player with its own A/V renderers, and that will render Reclock useless.......a friend of mine is working on it atm, can't disclose more informations at this point.

Do you know if the audio renderer will support the WAVE/MME API and/or Kernel Streaming? I only use reclock because is the only audio renderer using this API. I need it for bit perfect output with my RME Fireface 400.

[rack04]

I think I found a bug in Haali Media Splitter. I cannot get this file (http://rapidshare.com/files/131388181/Departed_Trailer_XVID-muxed.mp4.html) to play using MPC-HC and Haali Media Splitter. I encoded this file with MeGUI using XVID 2 Pass HQ video profile, NDAAC-LC Multichannel HQ audio profile, and muxed into a mp4 container.

According to MediaInfo:

General
Complete name : C:\Personal\Videos\Departed Trailer_XVID-muxed.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 48.9 MiB
Duration : 2mn 24s
Overall bit rate : 2848 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:33
Tagged date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:33

Video
Format : MPEG-4 Visual
Format profile : Streaming Video@L1
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, QPel : Yes
Format settings, GMC : No warppoints
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Codec ID : 20
Duration : 2mn 24s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 2588 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 8504 Kbps
Width : 1920 pixels
Height : 816 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.35
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.066
Stream size : 44.4 MiB (91%)
Writing library : XviD 1.2.0.dev47 (UTC 2006-11-01)
Encoded date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:33
Tagged date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:35

Audio
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 2mn 24s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 257 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 393 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Rear: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Stream size : 4.41 MiB (9%)
Encoded date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:35
Tagged date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:35



When I try to play this file with MPC-HC and Haali Media Splitter I only get the audio. BTW, I have FFDshow Tryout SVN 2045, MPC-HC SVN 678, and Haali Media Splitter 29/03/2008 installed. Using the MPC-HC internal MP4 splitter the video plays. Thanks.

[clsid]

Haali renderer != Haali Media Splitter

So wrong topic.

[rack04]

Haali renderer != Haali Media Splitter

So wrong topic.

Sorry I meant Haali Media Splitter. MPC-HC internal MP4 splitter works with this file but not Haali Media Splitter. I'll edit my post to reflect this change.

[jellysandwich]

I tried playing a 1920x1080 video on my 1280x800 laptop, but only got a black screen.
It resizes correctly and plays audio, but no video. I also noticed that it doesn't use
my CPU at all (CPU usage stays at around 10%). Is this intentional?

Specs:
1.6ghz Core Duo
1gb RAM
Intel 945G video card
CoreAVC for video
ffdshow for audio
Haali's renderer

(I know that I shouldn't be playing 1080 videos on such a weak laptop; I'm just testing stuff out.)

Edit: Huh, weird. After trying a few more times, it started working... Guess my laptop is just messed up.

[pitch.fr]

ok so here's a comparison with BT.709 content in HR and in ffdshow :

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3989/comparohrffbx9.png

conducted with this test pattern : http://www.w6rz.net/bars709.zip

and it's exactly the same with the 601 pattern, the conversion is far more accurate in ffdshow : http://www.w6rz.net/bars601.zip

and Haali told me a month ago by email that he might include this PS script in HR :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720

so we could finally get gamut conversion in HR....but well, I guess that's never gonna happen :(

HR is by far the smoothest and the best PC video renderer hands down, just a few fixes here and there and it could be perfect :eek:

Haali could even turn it shareware, neither I or my folks on AVS/HCFR would mind shelling a few bucks for such a fantastic piece of software :)

[Mangix]

little question here. currently on my vista PC, Haali Renderer gives me jitter at around 8.5ms. i get no dropped frames but if i use a renderer like VMR9, i get around 1ms jitter with a 29.97fps file(running at 60hz refresh rate) and with reclock, i get 0 when i set it to nearest integer. but for some reason, Haali always stays at 8.5ms no matter how i configure reclock. is there any reason for it?

[pitch.fr]

I'd say you get tons of dropped frames at +8ms, that's the limit at which HR starts dropping.

ideally using HR+Reclock, you need to run 47.952/48Hz for 23.976/24fps, 50Hz for 25fps and 59.94Hz for 29.97fps.

I usually get <0.05ms jitter :

http://pix.nofrag.com/3/7/2/f9dd4bb16cde2c99452be634e747f.png

[jellysandwich]

Is there a way to get higher quality subtitles with Haali's renderer?

It seems like it doesn't use the full desktop resolution, which leads to fuzzy and jaggy subtitles...

[Kado]

That only seems to happen with MPC HC, check with kmplayer. I prefer MPC HC anyway.

[pitch.fr]

anyone using an ATI card sometimes gets his media player hanging at shut down ?

I usually need to kill MPC/KMP with the task manager.

this "deadlock" problem was solved with a previous release of HR where it was a lot worse before, but it still happens for me from time to time on XP SP3 with the 8.x drivers :(

with EVR, it never hangs...tested with MPC HC and KMPlayer.

http://pix.nofrag.com/1/0/a/d1278051e72152d5abd4efdf439fett.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/1/0/a/d1278051e72152d5abd4efdf439fe.html)

[JarrettH]

Can someone tell me what I need to have setup in ffdshow to work with haali correctly? :thanks:

I've got it setup doing RGB32 output. I remember I didn't use Haali in the past for not supporting YV12...is that relevant anymore? The most useful info I can find on this splitter is the first post from 2 years ago. Does "supported spaces" mean output?

[clsid]

You don't have to change anything.

[AspectRadio]

I was wondering if it was possible to use the Haali renderer with WMP 11 (Vista) without having to tweak anything too advanced (i.e. registry stuff)?

Additional info: I have the latest CCCP installed.

[clsid]

Not possible. It requires major tweakage.

[THX-UltraII]

0-255 vs. 16-235 on HTPC, trying to understand what is going on

I ve finally managed to get a totally stutter free HTPC where I playback 3 kinds of video files:
1. Standard def. dvd material, 2. .wmv HD files and 3. .mkv HD files.

I use windows XP with sp3 installed on have a ATI HD 4350 video card. My HTPC is connected to my digital projector, the Mitsubishi HC7000 (HDMI out on HD4350 to HDMI1 in on HC7000). I use the latest driver for the 4350, 8.10driver (note that the 8.11 driver does not support the 4350! I ve checked this!).

As for software playback on my HTPC I use Media Player Classic HC with Haali’s Video Renderer (and for .mkv files Core AVC 1.8.5 comes in).

The ‘problem’ I now run into is the so called ‘Luma Range’ in Haali’s Video Renderer (and Input Levels and Output Levels in the Core AVC options). All three (Luma Range, Input Levels and Output Levels) can be set to TV (16-235) or PC (0-255). I do know that it is the color range of the video, but would like to know 2 things:

1. What is the best to pick if you have the ATI HD4350 and a digital projector like me for Luma Range, Input Levels and Output levels?
2. When I select 16-235 the picture that my projector displays becomes more dark and selecting 0-255 makes the picture look more grey and brighter. What should I select?

Thanks for all help!

[leeperry]

there's no need to ask the same question in 2 threads ;)

it depends on whether your pj offers the option to work in 16-235 or 0-255

if it's TV range only, output 16-235 from HR by checking "PC range"...meaning there won't be any level conversion

if it can work in PC range(a PC does a better RGB conversion than most displays), then check "TV range" and HR will convert from TV to PC

for ultimate RGB goodness, use ffdshow in RGB32HQ.......or better ConvertToRGB32() in the AVS filter of ffdshow(it makes 5% larger PNG files, so it's prolly more accurate)

besides using HR in YUY2 is not the best idea, as its BT601/709 coeffs are not green enough(only matters if your display is D65 calibrated)

[THX-UltraII]

there's no need to ask the same question in 2 threads ;)

sorry for this, other topic is closed.

it depends on whether your pj offers the option to work in 16-235 or 0-255

I looked up the manual just a moment ago but cannot find anything on 16-235 / 0-255 support.

if it's TV range only, output 16-235 from HR by checking "PC range"...meaning there won't be any level conversion

I do not understand what you are saying here m8, IF my HC7000 only supports TV Range (16-235), shouldn t I check TV Range (16-235) instead of PC range (0-255)? Correct me if I m wrong please!

if it can work in PC range(a PC does a better RGB conversion than most displays), then check "TV range" and HR will convert from TV to PC

Same as above: should t I pick PC range if my display supports PC Range?

for ultimate RGB goodness, use ffdshow in RGB32HQ.......or better ConvertToRGB32() in the AVS filter of ffdshow(it makes 5% larger PNG files, so it's prolly more accurate)

sorry man, don t understand this :( Can I achieve this maybe by choosing this as an external filter in the options of MPC HC?

besides using HR in YUY2 is not the best idea, as its BT601/709 coeffs are not green enough(only matters if your display is D65 calibrated)

Also don t understand you here :( Are you saying maybe that Haali's Renderer only uses YUY2 and that this is not good for picture quality/colors?

Thanks for all help m8!

[leeperry]

I looked up the manual just a moment ago but cannot find anything on 16-235 / 0-255 support.
well, look again :)

my HC3100 works in 0-255 in 1280*768, but 16-235 in 1280*720...it's clearly explained in the manual.

you can also use test patterns to find that out.

HR's levels conversion talks about the source, not the destination levels.

your source is 16-235, if you want no conversion and output 16-235 set it to "PC levels"

if your display is 0-255, set it to TV, so it converts from TV to PC ;)

what I meant is that if your HC7k is D65 calibrated, you may wanna use HR in RGB32 instead of YUY2 coz its YCrCb>RGB conversion coeffs are not green enough.

if your display is not carefully calibrated with a commercial sensor(eye one display/spyder) then it don't matter :p

[THX-UltraII]

well, look again :)

my HC3100 works in 0-255 in 1280*768, but 16-235 in 1280*720...it's clearly explained in the manual.

It must be me but I cannot find it anywhere in the manual of the HC7000. http://www.mitsubishielectric.nl/Products/Projectors/Home_Cinema/HC7000.aspx?pgeId=201&objectname=ProductShow&pdtId=221&pcyId=16

you can also use test patterns to find that out.

Which test patern could I use for this?

HR's levels conversion talks about the source, not the destination levels.

So with the Core AVC codec I should use Input Levels TV and Output Levels TV or PC depending on my projector capabilities?

your source is 16-235, if you want no conversion and output 16-235 set it to "PC levels"

understood!

if your display is 0-255, set it to TV, so it converts from TV to PC ;)

clear!

what I meant is that if your HC7k is D65 calibrated, you may wanna use HR in RGB32 instead of YUY2 coz its YCrCb>RGB conversion coeffs are not green enough.

It is D6500 calibrated.
How do I use Haali's Renderer in RGB32? I cannot select this anywhere.

if your display is not carefully calibrated with a commercial sensor(eye one display/spyder) then it don't matter :p

My display is ISF professionally calibrated :)


What do you recommend for filter using when you want to display standard def. dvd's, hd wmv's and hd .mkv's?

VMR9/Haali/Core AVC or Haali/Core AVC only? Or something else?

Thanks again for all help Perry!

[leeperry]

you can use the THX test available on most Lucas/Disney DVD's to find out whether your pj works in PC or TV mode I guess.

I got CoreAVC set to TV levels for both input/output

if you wanna use HR in RGB32, your best option is to add ffdshow in RGB32 and check "high quality YV12 to RGB32 conversion"....I know CoreAVC can output RGB32 but I ain't sure whether it does it HQ :D

well I use a variety of Avisynth scripts from Didee on my HD movies, but anyway if your display is ISF calibrated that'd be a shame to watch movies within the super-funky wide gamut of your HC7k :eek:

movies are mastered in SMPTE-C for US/ASIA, and EBU for Europe, so you may wanna put this script to good use to get proper colors(and not grossly oversaturated) :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720

these are the ref gamuts :

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/download/file.php?id=54246

and this is your HC7k :

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/BE/HC7000/usine-cie.jpg

I'm in contact with Haali so he adds gamut conversion into HR, but it doesn't work too well atm :(

anyhow you're a newbie at this point, and there's MUCH knowledge that you need to acquire...if you speak french I got a link that might save your day :D

[THX-UltraII]

you can use the THX test available on most Lucas/Disney DVD's to find out whether your pj works in PC or TV mode I guess.
I just found out that my HC7000 does support both 16-235 and 0-255. I can select this by switching between input mode (normal or enhanced) in my setup of the HC7000

if you wanna use HR in RGB32, your best option is to add ffdshow in RGB32 and check "high quality YV12 to RGB32 conversion"
can I do this by just installing latest ffshow version and then select External Filters in MPC HC and add high quality YV12 to RGB32 conversion filter?

anyhow you're a newbie at this point, and there's MUCH knowledge that you need to acquire...if you speak french I got a link that might save your day :D
I m trying the best I can:rolleyes: Don t speak French at all, just a little English :cool:


I ask my same question on the Video Help forum http://forum.videohelp.com/topic360331.html. A gut named jagabo suggested my to use Overlay as Output Renderer. What is you opinion on that? Isn t VMR9 providing better picture quality than overlay?

As you can see in that topic he provided me with 2 .mpg file which has a grey patch in it. I quote from another topic:

On a properly calibrated system the patches marked 16, 12, 4, and 0 should all be perfectly black. You should be able to see that 20 is slightly lighter than black. The patches marked 235, 239, 251, and 255 should all be full white. 231 should be slightly darker. You should be able to see a difference between all the patches in the row from 16 to 235.

Isn t it so that my screen has to look like this picture (showing BTB and WTW correct right?).:
http://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1913273/not.png[/quote][/quote]

and not like this?:
http://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1913273/should.png

Correct me again if I m wrong please and thxz again for your help.

[leeperry]

no, you have to use ffdshow and output RGB32HQ for proper BT601/709>RGB conversion.

Overlay is a legacy video renderer, HR is far better! smoother, support LUT's, frames cache, automatic BT601/709 conversion in YUY2, etc etc ;)

set your pj to PC range, and enjoy the show

[cyberbeing]

So it sounds like Haali gave you a test version of Haali Renderer with gamut conversion? How long ago was that? Did he ever tell you how far along he is in implementing it? Was he still just experimenting with how to implement it, the last you talked to him?

Another thing that would be nice to see in the next version of Haali Renderer, would be having the frame buffer increased to at least 512MB. With 256MB it's only able to hold very few 1080p RGB frames.

[leeperry]

he did yeah, but it doesn't work at this point.........apparently the 1/0.45 gamma correction of the 3D LUT is not effective or sumthing :(

that was like a week ago ;)

Haali is a very busy man, and his HMS/HR package doesn't have a very high priority on his TODO list...so don't count on it I'd say.

how many 1080p frames can you fit in 256MB ?

[cyberbeing]

Anyway it's still nice to hear that Haali is even partially working on that 3D LUT gamut conversion as you have been talking about that for a long time.

how many 1080p frames can you fit in 256MB ?

1920x1080 RGB = 32 frames
1920x1080 YUY2 = 64 frames