Haali Renderer [Archive]

Egh

2nd March 2006, 20:06

Recently new piece of software was released from Haali. In public, that is.

Since questions about that were scattered in several threads, I've created a thread for this one as well.

Ask questions, I'll try to get response from Haali on those :P

Info on the renderer:

1. It was released for public in the "MatroskaSplitter" build on 2006-02-25. Version of splitter in that build is 1.6.87.20

2. Alpha-tests for it were available earlier, 2006-02-13 and before that, if I'm not mistaken.

3. Haali renderer is a DirectShow renderer, i.e. similar to VMR9.

4. Haali renderer by shaders, more accurately PS 2.0 compatible shaders. If your card doesnt' have those -- you can't use the renderer.

5. Haali renderer uses bicubic interpolation for resizing.

6. That resizing is done with shaders, implementation is different to casual mpc shader-based resizing in VMR9 mode.

7. Resizing in haali renderer is supposed to be faster than resizing with shaders in VMR9 mode due to limitations of implementation in the latter.

8. That's obvious that Haali wrote the new renderer, but not so many ppl khow that shaders for resizing in VMR9 mode were also written by him.

Egh

2nd March 2006, 20:26

Question: Where to download Haali renderer?

Answer:
http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/MatroskaSplitter.exe
At the moment you can't download the renderer as separate file (it was the case during testing phase though), it's included in Haali splitter package now. The link is given above.

Question: How to check that Haali renderer is working?

Answer:
In MPC, call context menu, go to "Filters" submenu, and check if Haali renderer is there. It should be typically on top of the list, whilst Haali splitter will be in the bottom.

Question: What's the difference between VMR9 and Haali renderer?

Answer (revised):

Haali renderer is similar to VMR9 in the sense it's DirectShow Renderer as well.

Only that it uses shaders for bicubic resizing, and that's forced in the renderer, i.e. it doesnt' work if no PS 2.0 support is found on the system, cause, naturally then it would be just another VMR9. The latter uses bilinear interpolation, cause that's one which is naturally built-in the 3D accellerators from the times they were born.

Question: What's going on inside ? :)

Answer (revised):

To be more technical, in the first mode (For VMR9), mpc allocates DirectShow surface and "offscreen plain source is simply blitted to backbuffer with StretchRect()" . In second and third modes, it creates two triangles and maps the video onto them. So resizing and other transformations like rotations in the 3D mode are done in hardware, using simple bilinear interpolation. These operations don't involve shaders per se.

Proper bicubic is supposed to be two-pass process, and as far as I know that's the one of the reasons for a new separate renderer. To simply put it, it wasn't impossible to implement twopass mode via shaders in mpc with VMR9. But, as Haali himself pointed out, that would require some coding from Gabest.... Which he was apparently reluctant to do. To sum up, mpc bicubic resizing in vmr9 mode is supposed to be inferior in speed to Haali renderer (cause in vmr9 it uses single-pass).

Question: Did Haali wrote code for mpc rezising?

Answer:

Shader for bicubic resizing in VMR9 was written by Haali himself, but not the code for mpc.

Question: Are mpc shaders supported in Haali renderer?

Answer:

As Haali himself pointed out, no, they are not.

Question: What colorspaces does Haali renderer support?

Answer:

Haali renderer accepts atm only YUY2 and RGB32. Conversion is done via GPU in hardware. That means if you have slower card and fast CPU, probably good idea to force RGB32 output in ffdshow (besides that often fixes TV->PC conversion as well)

foxyshadis

3rd March 2006, 00:47

Egh

3rd March 2006, 02:56

Q: Is it possible to switch between TV (YUV 16-235->0-255) and PC mode with this? I often find myself switching between renderers because different colorspace, renderer, and gpu combinations have different output modes.

Why do you need that? Besides, AVS can be used for TV<->PC color conversion.

And what about different output with different GPUs?

roytam1

4th March 2006, 05:16

I got gray/white dots in screen with haali's renderer.

Egh

4th March 2006, 07:24

I got gray/white dots in screen with haali's renderer.

screenshot? codec decoding the video, your 3D card, colorspace used ...

roytam1

4th March 2006, 08:11

screenshot? codec decoding the video, your 3D card, colorspace used ...Screenshots:
Haali's renderer (http://roytam.byethost11.com/src/1141456029556.jpg)
VMR9 Mixing renderer (http://roytam.byethost11.com/src/1141456050788.jpg)

CPU: AMD Athlon 2600+ (2133MHz)
GPU: ATi Readon 9500
Codec: XviD 1.2.0 cvs 2006-02-28
Colorspace: not forced (default one)
OS: Win XP SP1

Edit: Opening video with haali's renderer is very slow comparing with M$ VMR9 Mixing Renderer.

foxyshadis

4th March 2006, 08:26

Why do you need that? Besides, AVS can be used for TV<->PC color conversion.

And what about different output with different GPUs?
If it always correctly processes it, great, just that some stupid mjpeg and mpeg codecs export 0-255 instead of 16-235, and passing it through avisynth is a lot of extra processing. Even besides that, if it passes that conversion on to the video card you're asking for trouble, since different methods or different cards give different conversions.

Couple references:
http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=92
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96526

Egh

4th March 2006, 08:36

Screenshots:

Edit: Opening video with haali's renderer is very slow comparing with M$ VMR9 Mixing Renderer.

1. Force RGB32 output.

2. I'm not pro at Radeon cardz :0 Please do tell equivalent for GeForce. GFX even 5500FX, not talking 5200FX is generally not recommended for haali rendered (works on small frames but fps drops 2-3 times on fullscreen resizing in my case, i have 5500FX btw).

3. Do you change resolution desktop resolution on playback?

4. How "slow" is opening? Some slowdown is natural I think.

B.F.

4th March 2006, 12:09

I had a Rageon9550 on my office PC.
All work fine.
Try to update drivers.

roytam1

4th March 2006, 14:21

1. Force RGB32 output.

2. I'm not pro at Radeon cardz :0 Please do tell equivalent for GeForce. GFX even 5500FX, not talking 5200FX is generally not recommended for haali rendered (works on small frames but fps drops 2-3 times on fullscreen resizing in my case, i have 5500FX btw).

3. Do you change resolution desktop resolution on playback?

4. How "slow" is opening? Some slowdown is natural I think.
1. That means Haali renderer doesn't work well with other colorspace? Oh dear.
3. No
4. Counting the time from the state "Opening" till to "Playing" in mpc. Haali's needs about 10 ~ 15 seconds but VMR9 Mixing Renderer only needs 3 ~ 5 seconds.

I had a Rageon9550 on my office PC.
All work fine.
Try to update drivers.
Not able to do so. New drivers kills system.
The latest driver for my PC is 5.10 beta.

Edit: Typo.

Haali

4th March 2006, 16:29

To clarify a few things:
* Supported colorspaces are RGB32 and YUY2 only. YUY2 should work fine.
* Color range is TV scale only. This is not adjustable atm.
* Colorspace conversion and resizing is done via shaders, so output should be identical regardless of the video card or drivers.
* Shaders are evaluated once per output pixel, so a lot more work is usually done for a fullscreen presentation.
* Slow startup times are probably caused by hardware configuration. Here startup time is 1-2s regardless of the renderer so didn't even bother to measure it till now.

What is done differently from other renderers:
* Resizing
* Colorspace conversion
These two above are the things I dislike most of all in stock DS renderers.
* All processing is done on a separate thread, so performance on HT/SMP systems is better, on signle CPU machines it's probably worse.
* Video RAM is used to buffer a lot of decoded frames (amount is adjustable in options).

roytam1

4th March 2006, 16:53

To clarify a few things:
1. Supported colorspaces are RGB32 and YUY2 only. YUY2 should work fine.

2. Slow startup times are probably caused by hardware configuration. Here startup time is 1-2s regardless of the renderer so didn't even bother to measure it till now.

3. All processing is done on a separate thread, so performance on HT/SMP systems is better, on signle CPU machines it's probably worse.

1. with YUY2 colorspace, while/gray dot comes.
2. I dunno. Same result(startup time of haali's is 1.5~3 times slower than VMR9 Mixing) with my friends' computer.
Test case: plain opening files in mpc, showing 100% without resizing/fullscreen
( Althon XP 1600+ o.c. 2000+, WinXP SP1, Gfx 2 Ti
P4 2.6G, WinXP SP2, Gfx 6600LE
P4 2.4G, WinXP SP1, Gfx 5500FX )
3. Seems so.

Edit: Typo.

breez

4th March 2006, 20:55

There seems to be some weird bug with the resizing.

Resizing 640x480 video to fullscreen 1280x1024 (with black bars) results in 100% CPU usage. If I just resize the window by a random amount I either get no increase in CPU usage or sometimes I hit a spot where the CPU usage goes through the roof again (100% or sometimes a smaller amount). No correlation between output frame size and CPU usage, eg. find a spot where 100% CPU usage occurs and then enlarge the window a little and the CPU usage drops to normal levels.

If I force YV12 output colorspace from ffdshow the CPU usage stays normal during any resizing. When no output colorspace is forced, YUY2 is selected and the above mentioned rise in CPU usage occurs. With RGB32 forced there is smaller rise (in fullscreen, didn't try resizing the window).

If Haali renderer only supports YUY2 and RGB32, where does the colorspace conversion from YV12 happen?

System info:
1900MHz Athlon XP
Radeon 9800Pro (should be no slouch at PS 2.0 performance)
Tested with a few different catalyst drivers (5.12, 5.13, 6.1)
MPC 2006.02.26-2.2
The Haali renderer that came with the latest splitter
Windows XP SP2

breez

4th March 2006, 22:41

Anyway, forcing YV12 in ffdshow + Haali renderer handling colorspace conversions and resizing gives me very satisfactory performance and almost enables me to playback 1080P H.264 content (give me just 200MHz more and I'm there!). Software YV12 -> RGB32 is just way too processor intensive with 1080P frames.

I also noticed another weird behavior. 1080P H.264 clip decoded by CoreAVC and shown using Haali renderer gives me a picture with the resolution 960x540 (desktop resolution is 1280x1024). However, if I enable raw video support in ffdshow (ie. clip -> CoreAVC -> ffdshow -> renderer), but actually do no processing I get the correct 1920x1080 output.

EDIT:

And of course now I notice that forcing YV12 colorspace means I'm actually getting VMR7 and not Haali at all :) :( Didn't really look at the picture when doing the comparison (no bicubic resize, gamma correction not working).

@Haali:

Will the renderer support YV12 colorspace in the future? Because with practically everything being in YV12 we need to do YV12 -> YUY2/RGB32 in software anyway (which costs CPU cycles).

Egh

5th March 2006, 00:47

EDIT:

And of course now I notice that forcing YV12 colorspace means I'm actually getting VMR7 and not Haali at all :) :( Didn't really look at the picture when doing the comparison (no bicubic resize, gamma correction not working).

Exactly. Easiest way to check is filters submenu, of course. So revise the abovementioned bugs and see if those were caused when Haali renderer was on :)

Will the renderer support YV12 colorspace in the future? Because with practically everything being in YV12 we need to do YV12 -> YUY2/RGB32 in software anyway (which costs CPU cycles).

Not that fast. YUY2 is practically same as YV12 :) Converting to RGB is another matter, of course. In YV12 and YUY2 luma is same, only chroma planes differ, and since it's only a factor of two (YUY2 has twice as much "color pixels" compared with YV12, in notation: 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 respectively), conversion YV12->YUY2 is pretty straightforward. Some additional CPU is spent to rearrange luma/color info though, but that should be rather fast (planar/interleaved conversion).

Haali

5th March 2006, 01:26

Yes, YV12->YUY2 conversion with linear upsampling is limited by memory bandwidth, not by processing speed. Doing it on the gpu will require multiple passes. I didn't test it, but I expect little or no improvement unless the gpu implements yv12 texture support in hardware.
Video size that the player sees is adjusted to make the window fit inside the screen (I hate large windows that are not entirely visible). Same thing happens with smaller clips, they are enlarged to be at least 400x300.

breez

5th March 2006, 01:31

Exactly. Easiest way to check is filters submenu, of course. So revise the abovementioned bugs and see if those were caused when Haali renderer was on :)

I checked again now, Haali renderer is present with the strange behavior (with or without ffdshow in the chain, WMV9 file).

edit: It is worth noting, that there was only a small rise in CPU usage with 640x480 XVID and DivX videos when doing fullscreen resize (decoded by ffdshow). But then with a 640x480 H.264 video (decoded with CoreAVC, ffdshow not in the chain) the CPU was at 100% again.

Not that fast. YUY2 is practically same as YV12 :) Converting to RGB is another matter, of course. In YV12 and YUY2 luma is same, only chroma planes differ, and since it's only a factor of two (YUY2 has twice as much "color pixels" compared with YV12, in notation: 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 respectively), conversion YV12->YUY2 is pretty straightforward. Some additional CPU is spent to rearrange luma/color info though, but that should be rather fast (planar/interleaved conversion).

Yes, there wasn't much difference in CPU usage with YV12 and YUY2 ffdshow (or HQ RGB32 for that matter). Just ffdshow handling raw video though takes 20% eventhough it is doing nothing (YV12 output)! Comparison made with VMR9.

No ffdshow, but just WMV9 decoder and Haali (no resize) gives me ~same 20% higher CPU usage, obviously WMV decoder doing the colorspace conversion (with bad chroma upsampling even! tsk, tsk) so that Haali renderer can accept it.

Egh

5th March 2006, 03:06

Yes, there wasn't much difference in CPU usage with YV12 and YUY2 ffdshow (or HQ RGB32 for that matter). Just ffdshow handling raw video though takes 20% eventhough it is doing nothing (YV12 output)! Comparison made with VMR9.

No ffdshow, but just WMV9 decoder and Haali (no resize) gives me ~same 20% higher CPU usage, obviously WMV decoder doing the colorspace conversion (with bad chroma upsampling even! tsk, tsk) so that Haali renderer can accept it.

For WMV9, btw, check post-processing options in it.

What is your CPU and ffdshow build btw? 20% for just passthru seems to be a bit too much. 10% would be more sensible, imo.

kurt

5th March 2006, 10:59

And of course now I notice that forcing YV12 colorspace means I'm actually getting VMR7 and not Haali at all :) :( Didn't really look at the picture when doing the comparison (no bicubic resize, gamma correction not working).
Exactly. Easiest way to check is filters submenu, of course. So revise the abovementioned bugs and see if those were caused when Haali renderer was on :)
so what is displayed in filters submenu exactly if haali renderer is working? just "video renderer"? I wonder why the renderer should run on my old matrox g400...

breez

5th March 2006, 12:51

For WMV9, btw, check post-processing options in it.

Not sure how to do it. In WMP10 options I have disabled "Use video smoothing" under Video Acceleration -> Advanced for long time. Is this it?

What is your CPU and ffdshow build btw? 20% for just passthru seems to be a bit too much. 10% would be more sensible, imo.

1900MHz Athlon XP. Previously used 21. december build and went back to Milan's latest compiled build from 29. november. The 20% rise only happens with these WMV9 in avi files :confused: AVC in MKV is fine (same resolution, framerate and colorspace) with CoreAVC being the decoder (so ffdshow's role is the same as with the WMV9 files).

so what is displayed in filters submenu exactly if haali renderer is working? just "video renderer"? I wonder why the renderer should run on my old matrox g400...

It says "Haali's Video Renderer".

Egh

5th March 2006, 20:42

so what is displayed in filters submenu exactly if haali renderer is working? just "video renderer"? I wonder why the renderer should run on my old matrox g400...

"Video renderer" is old pre VMR renderer :O

Haali renderer should be displayed in the "Filters" submenu on playback, if it's working :)

Egh

5th March 2006, 20:49

Not sure how to do it. In WMP10 options I have disabled "Use video smoothing" under Video Acceleration -> Advanced for long time. Is this it?

Truth being said, I don't know :) I would trust old ways more anyhow. I.e. either registry tweakening or downloading program which does it for you. "WMVPostpross.exe" is the name. Link for it was somewhere on doom9, along with instructions how to do essentially same thing but manually altering registry values.

Since PP complexity is directly linked with pixels per frame, disabling PP in WMV9 gives HUEG boost in speed on hdtv resolutions. I.e. with my athlon XP i couldn't watch some 1024*576 wmv9 videos withouth framedropping. Until i disabled PP. Then CPU % dropped considerably, effectively being not so much over XVid.

1900MHz Athlon XP. Previously used 21. december build and went back to Milan's latest compiled build from 29. november. The 20% rise only happens with these WMV9 in avi files :confused: AVC in MKV is fine (same resolution, framerate and colorspace) with CoreAVC being the decoder (so ffdshow's role is the same as with the WMV9 files).

Hmm... Strange. I NEVER had any problems with b0b0rs 1221 build. Sure you use his build? (SSE1 only on x264.nl). And try kuroshi SSE Athlon builds as well (but they have some problems, as I noted in ffdshow builds thread).

Sure it's WMV Decode which does WMV decoding? And which colorspace is ffdshow receiving?

kurt

5th March 2006, 20:51

"Video renderer" is old pre VMR renderer :O

Haali renderer should be displayed in the "Filters" submenu on playback, if it's working :)
ok, thank you both for clearing things up... (even if I don't like it :p)

breez

5th March 2006, 21:23

Truth being said, I don't know :) I would trust old ways more anyhow. I.e. either registry tweakening or downloading program which does it for you. "WMVPostpross.exe" is the name. Link for it was somewhere on doom9, along with instructions how to do essentially same thing but manually altering registry values.

Since PP complexity is directly linked with pixels per frame, disabling PP in WMV9 gives HUEG boost in speed on hdtv resolutions. I.e. with my athlon XP i couldn't watch some 1024*576 wmv9 videos withouth framedropping. Until i disabled PP. Then CPU % dropped considerably, effectively being not so much over XVid.

Found the WMVPostpross.exe. There is a difference in CPU usage, but the 100% @ fullscreen resize remains.

Hmm... Strange. I NEVER had any problems with b0b0rs 1221 build. Sure you use his build? (SSE1 only on x264.nl). And try kuroshi SSE Athlon builds as well (but they have some problems, as I noted in ffdshow builds thread).

Can't remember off hand if it was b0b0r's build or not, but it was a fast build and worked very well with my AXP. Note, the strange behavior is also present with the Milan's 29. nov build (which to me seems very stable). I'll try some other builds.

Sure it's WMV Decode which does WMV decoding? And which colorspace is ffdshow receiving?

Yup, "WMVideo Decoder DMO" in the filters list and ffdshow receives YV12 as expected (encode source from DVD).

chros

5th March 2006, 22:02

Edit: Opening video with haali's renderer is very slow comparing with M$ VMR9 Mixing Renderer.
Yes, same here, aprox. 3-4 sec. Geforce 6600GT, driver 81.85, MPC 6.4.8.8
Is it right ? (maybe because of desing ?)

1080P H.264 clip decoded by CoreAVC and shown using Haali renderer gives me a picture with the resolution 960x540 (desktop resolution is 1280x1024).
Same here with a *.ts file: contains a MPEG2 video ...

breez

5th March 2006, 22:27

I presume the slow startup is because of buffering. Try setting the amount of buffering lower in Haali Video Renderer properties (click on it in the filters list).

Oline 61

5th March 2006, 22:29

So this renderer properly scales the chroma in YV12 (4:2:0) so that you don't get the jaggies (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106111&highlight=vmr9+yv12)?
I have a 6600GT, so no RGB overlay, and VMR9 does a 0-255 -> 16-235 conversion that washes out the video. MY only choice is to convert to RGB and use VMR9, but then I have to switch to Overlay for non RGB sources!

breez

5th March 2006, 22:38

So this renderer properly scales the chroma in YV12 (4:2:0) so that you don't get the jaggies (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=106111&highlight=vmr9+yv12)?

Yup.

EDIT: Ah, actually the renderer doesn't support YV12 at all. I guess the YUY2 > RGB is done without such mistakes though.

I have a 6600GT, so no RGB overlay, and VMR9 does a 0-255 -> 16-235 conversion that washes out the video. MY only choice is to convert to RGB and use VMR9, but then I have to switch to Overlay for non RGB sources!

Not to be a nitpicker, but it is really the other way around, the possible conversion is from 16-235 -> 0-255 (since the levels in video are originally 16-235).

You could try the latest forceware 84.12, reportedly nvidia changed the behavior with these drivers and 16-235 -> 0-255 conversion is done with VMR9 (ppl at avsforum weren't too happy).

Oline 61

5th March 2006, 22:41

Not to be a nitpicker, but it is really the other way around, the possible conversion is from 16-235 -> 0-255 (since the levels in video are originally 16-235).

You could try the latest forceware 84.12, reportedly nvidia changed the behavior with these drivers and 16-235 -> 0-255 conversion is done with VMR9 (ppl at avsforum weren't too happy).
Okay, I am on Forceware 81.98 and it does do a 16-235 -> 0-255 conversion, making the video look washed out. Are you saying that 84.12 doesn't do the conversion or that it does do the conversion? My current setup does do the conversion.

breez

5th March 2006, 22:45

Okay, I am on Forceware 81.98 and it does do a 16-235 -> 0-255 conversion, making the video look washed out. Are you saying that 84.12 doesn't do the conversion or that it does do the conversion? My current setup does do the conversion.

In my experience, not doing conversion from 16-235 to 0-255 will make the video look washed out on a PC display (which expects levels 0-255). 84.12 does the conversion, previous drivers do not (AFAIK).

LoRd_MuldeR

5th March 2006, 22:45

Where is download for Haali Renderer?

breez

5th March 2006, 22:46

Where is download for Haali Renderer?

It is included with latest Haali media splitter.

Oline 61

5th March 2006, 22:47

Okay, I'll give 84.12 a shot.

chros

5th March 2006, 22:51

... resizing hd video ...
Same here with a *.ts file: contains a MPEG2 video ...
BTW: perhaps it's a feature !

breez

5th March 2006, 22:53

BTW: perhaps it's a feature !

Could be :) But users probably want such a feature to be an option.

JarrettH

5th March 2006, 22:54

Can't use my ffdshow with it :/

Oline 61

5th March 2006, 23:21

Thanks, breez, 84.12 solves the problem completely. That simplifies my video playback experience a great deal.

LoRd_MuldeR

6th March 2006, 00:13

It is included with latest Haali media splitter.

I have the latest Haali Media Splitter, but how to enable the Renderer?

breez

6th March 2006, 00:15

I have the latest Haali Media Splitter, but how to enable it?

You need a recent MPC (6.4.8.8 was just released). You can choose Haali renderer from the options (Output).

Egh

6th March 2006, 00:17

Where is download for Haali Renderer?

@ All:

do read first two posts before asking something!

I'm constantly updating mini-FAQ in the second post, btw.

Today included answers about shaders support in the renderer and how to identify if it's working in the decoding chain :D

Anything else worth including in the FAQ, btw?

Also I would like to see reports on Haali renderer speed in different configurations (i.e. report OS, cpu, 3D card, drivers, resolution and colorspace used and fps, of course).

Egh

6th March 2006, 00:20

Yes, same here, aprox. 3-4 sec. Geforce 6600GT, driver 81.85, MPC 6.4.8.8
Is it right ? (maybe because of desing ?)

Same here with a *.ts file: contains a MPEG2 video ...

Again: haali renderer is supposed to have slower startup, it need to engage shaders and allocate lots of VRAM.

Can you be more specific about problems with lower resolution?

In my experience, not doing conversion from 16-235 to 0-255 will make the video look washed out on a PC display (which expects levels 0-255). 84.12 does the conversion, previous drivers do not (AFAIK).

You're right. MPEG4 is in TV range (not exactly 16-235 btw :P), PC display range is 0-255. You can test all that with just one AVS command : ColorYUV(levels="TV->PC")

Converting to RGB in ffdshow, btw, takes levels into account.

LoRd_MuldeR

6th March 2006, 01:32

Again: haali renderer is supposed to have slower startup, it need to engage shaders and allocate lots of VRAM.

Okay, I found the option in MPC ;)

But startup is REALLY slow. Too slow indeed!
You press "play" and you have to wait about 10 seconds before it starts to play.
Worst is, the whole system freezes during this time.

Until this is improved, I'll have to disable Haali Renderer... :(

Egh

6th March 2006, 02:14

In my experience, not doing conversion from 16-235 to 0-255 will make the video look washed out on a PC display (which expects levels 0-255). 84.12 does the conversion, previous drivers do not (AFAIK).

I tried new drivers (which are still beta), but conversion is not done on YV12/YUY2 for VMR9. Or maybe that conversion is not for FX5500?

So far back to old good RGB32 output in ffdshow :) Btw amazingly hi-q conversion does provide a slight improvement on colors compared to plain RBG32. Can't explain why exactly :)

Oline 61

6th March 2006, 02:19

High quality conversion properly scales the chroma instead of doing pixel doubling.

Haali

6th March 2006, 09:26

Video size that the player sees is adjusted to make the window fit inside the screen (I hate large windows that are not entirely visible). Same thing happens with smaller clips, they are enlarged to be at least 400x300.
This does not affect the image in any way.

chros

6th March 2006, 09:31

I presume the slow startup is because of buffering. Try setting the amount of buffering lower in Haali Video Renderer properties (click on it in the filters list).
I have select the minimum amount of buffer (16MB) but the problem is the same, I have measured it: 10 sec ! (All ther other renderer work ok.)

So you guys want to tell me, that you have not experienced such a slow down at loading files ????

breez

6th March 2006, 13:17

I have select the minimum amount of buffer (16MB) but the problem is the same, I have measured it: 10 sec ! (All ther other renderer work ok.)

So you guys want to tell me, that you have not experienced such a slow down at loading files ????

Yes, I have the slow down as well, but 10s is not really significant for me if I'm going to watch a video 24+ minutes long :)

flanger216

7th March 2006, 03:45

Awesome... on my sys (Radeon X1300) it's much, much faster than FFDshow's lanczos resize and looks comparable.

Only one problem: I use Zoomplayer, which has a zoom function that allows you to scale video to larger than fullscreen, which is useful when watching 4:3 letterboxed content on my widescreen monitor. However, when using the Haali Renderer, the video blanks out when I enlarge the video beyond fullscreen. Of course, I don't know if the fault lies in the renderer or Zoomplayer itself, but it works perfectly with overlay and all VMR modes.

B.F.

7th March 2006, 06:08

MetalPhreak

10th March 2006, 23:21

This is pretty neat - I have a feeling this going to become my default renderer.
Ok here's a question - in the configuration for the renderer there's an option for buffer size and something called A, what is this A? (sorry if I missed this)
I also noticed the frame rate is extremely erratic - on 25fps video it's jumps between 23 and 30 fps.

Egh

11th March 2006, 04:56

Ok here's a question - in the configuration for the renderer there's an option for buffer size and something called A, what is this A? (sorry if I missed this)
I also noticed the frame rate is extremely erratic - on 25fps video it's jumps between 23 and 30 fps.

A is supposed to be parameter which affects shaprening effect. I don't know the relation between this param and standard avc style b&c params though. Need to ask Haali about it :)

B.F.

11th March 2006, 05:08

A is supposed to be parameter which affects shaprening effect. I don't know the relation between this param and standard avc style b&c params though. Need to ask Haali about it :)
The same as VirtualDub resize.
0.6 - soft
0.75 - normal
1.0 - sharp

Egh

11th March 2006, 13:37

The same as VirtualDub resize.
0.6 - soft
0.75 - normal
1.0 - sharp

What about values below 0.6?

Edit:

wheee, I found out the relation :approved:

c = -A; b + 2*c = 1;

Where A = Haali parameter; b, c = AVS parameters for bicubic sharpening.

Rash

12th March 2006, 21:58

Egh, just a suggestion. Include the Haali Splitter download link on your first post. ;)

OCedHrt

13th March 2006, 12:41

I also have a major wait time when loading videos. 10 seconds sounds about right.

Radeon 9800 Pro
2 Ghz Athlon XP-M
1 GB RAM

Update: The load time definitely varies depending on how the video is opened. If the video is opened into a new instance of mpc, the load time is instanteous. If I re-use the MPC window, it can take anywhere from 5 seconds to 15 seconds.

chros

14th March 2006, 09:56

The same as VirtualDub resize.
0.6 - soft
0.75 - normal
1.0 - sharp
From the manual of Virtualdub:
"Precise bicubic (cubic spline decimation filter):
Compute the desired pixel by applying a triangle filter to the closest N source pixels, where N=16 for enlarging and N>16 for shrinking. This mode is the same as bicubic for enlargement but gives better results when shrinking. Three different modes are given, A=-1.0, A=-.75, and A=-0.6. These vary the "stiffness" of the cubic spline and control the peaking of the filter, which perceptually alters the sharpness of the output. A=-0.6 gives the most consistent results mathematically, but the other modes may produce more visually pleasing results."

- So, when you're enlarging video, these A values doesn't take account, just when you're shrinking.
- and mathematically isn't the A=-0.6 is the sharpest ?

Update: The load time definitely varies depending on how the video is opened. If the video is opened into a new instance of mpc, the load time is instanteous. If I re-use the MPC window, it can take anywhere from 5 seconds to 15 seconds.
Confirmed with MPC v6.4.8.9 :(

LoRd_MuldeR

14th March 2006, 11:35

Update: The load time definitely varies depending on how the video is opened. If the video is opened into a new instance of mpc, the load time is instanteous. If I re-use the MPC window, it can take anywhere from 5 seconds to 15 seconds.

Hmmm...

For me it always takes 15 seconds with Haali Renderer enabled, no matter how I open the clip
(latest celtic build)

Egh

14th March 2006, 16:37

Hmmm...

For me it always takes 15 seconds with Haali Renderer enabled, no matter how I open the clip
(latest celtic build)

2 All:

You have to try harder to produce some more consistent report on this problem. The point is that Haali himself tried but failed to reproduce that bug.

It seems it's related to some specific DX/drivers/Card.

Seb.26

14th March 2006, 17:03

2 All:

You have to try harder to produce some more consistent report on this problem. The point is that Haali himself tried but failed to reproduce that bug.

It seems it's related to some specific DX/drivers/Card.
Ok:
> A64 3200+
> Ge6150
> nForceWare 84.12 (beta)
> MPC+CoreAVC+Reclock

About 10s for displaying 1st frame of video ( I will try if wait time depend on buffer size ... Does the render wait the buffer is full before start playback ? )

Is that is enought ?
( In case "No" : please ask what you want ;) )

LoRd_MuldeR

14th March 2006, 23:57

2 All:

You have to try harder to produce some more consistent report on this problem. The point is that Haali himself tried but failed to reproduce that bug.

It seems it's related to some specific DX/drivers/Card.

I use latest MPC build from Celtic Druid.
OS is WinXP (32-Bit) with SP-1.
Card is ATI Radeon 9800 Pro with Radeon Omega Drivers 3.8.221 (Catalyst 6.2)
And I use DirectX 9.0c (Feb 2006 release)

Again: Takes at least 10-15 seconds to start playback.
Computer is frozen during this time...

OCedHrt

15th March 2006, 03:08

At first I thought it might just be the ATI cards, but it seems some GeForce users are having problems too.

flanger216

15th March 2006, 05:18

Using Zoomplayer with the latest FFDshow on my Radeon x1300, there's a roughly 5-10 delay, the length of which seems to be directly proportional to how much video cache I use.

Also, very rarely I come upon a video that doesn't seek properly when I use the Haali renderer, but works fine when I use VMR9.

Scoty

15th March 2006, 10:18

i use the latest MPC with Haalis Reenderer and the NVidia PureVideo Decoder but how can i set Force RGB32 output ? in the new MPC i can not find the settings.

Egh

15th March 2006, 16:17

i use the latest MPC with Haalis Reenderer and the NVidia PureVideo Decoder but how can i set Force RGB32 output ? in the new MPC i can not find the settings.

RGB32 is enforced in the decoder. So e.g. if you use ffdshow you can disable output in YV12, YUY2 etc, apart from RGB32.

Egh

15th March 2006, 16:18

Also, very rarely I come upon a video that doesn't seek properly when I use the Haali renderer, but works fine when I use VMR9.

If that problem is reproducible (would like to know parameters of the file at least, i.e. which tracks it has, which container etc) can you upload some fragment of that to lets' say rapidshare?

Scoty

15th March 2006, 19:21

i found a other problem with Haalis Reenderer. i dont have picture on my TV. with the standart output i have a TV picture but with Haalis Reenderer i see only black screen on my TV (SVHS). what can i do ?

flanger216

15th March 2006, 23:55

If that problem is reproducible (would like to know parameters of the file at least, i.e. which tracks it has, which container etc) can you upload some fragment of that to lets' say rapidshare?

Yeah, sorry for the vague bug-report. The files were all MP42 encodes, and I remember there being some sort of problem with their indexes. Unfortunately, I've since deleted them and don't recall where I got them. Again, definitely not a big bug and probably an issue with the video-files themselves.

Egh

16th March 2006, 04:10

Scoty

16th March 2006, 09:41

What kind of standard output do you use? Overlay or VMR9?

overlay.

Egh

16th March 2006, 17:53

overlay.

Try if same effect is with VMR9 btw. Of course Haali renderer doesn't use overlay

Scoty

16th March 2006, 19:42

Try if same effect is with VMR9 btw. Of course Haali renderer doesn't use overlay

will work tv out only with overlay over svhs ?

Egh

17th March 2006, 04:01

will work tv out only with overlay over svhs ?

That's for you to research. In context of this thread you need to make sure that bugs are caused specifically by Haali renderer, not due to, like in this case, not using overlay.

KoD

25th March 2006, 11:53

Finally I can post on this board. The 5 days delay set between registering and being able to post sure is annoying.

1. People having issues with high CPU load when using YV12 or YUY2 output colorsapce from their decoder (ffdshow by default options, divx/xvid by default, too). It seems that this causes the driver to work overtime (at least on ATi cards from the 9xxx series and systems with single core CPU) and that's why you get a very high CPU usage. Force RGB32 output in your video decoder (in ffdshow, uncheck YV12 and YUY2 modes, in divx I believe there is no way to force RGB output, in XviD there's an option to force the output colorspace to RGB32). This will make your video playback run at normal (read proper) CPU usage again.

2. "I don't use YV12/YUY2 in my video driver but I can still use Haali's renderer although it's supposed to only work with YUY2 or RGB input. And this works on some files but it doesn't on others !". Most likely you were not aware of all the filters in the video rendering chain. Probably you have files with subtitles which make vsfilter to be loaded, and guess what happens... vsfilter performs the colorspace conversion from YV12 to YUY2 ! Check this by enabling the OSD page in vsfilter options and look at the input colorspace and the output one. This also means that CPU usage will be higher on certain video cards/CPU combinations, because of the problem mentioned at point 1). Feeding the renderer with YUY2 (from vsfilter output) -> high CPU usage. So, it's better to force RGB output in the video decoder.

3. High load times when opening a video file. This happens to me too, P4 2.4GHz, Ati Radeon 9700 Pro card, latest Dx, WMP10 on clean WinXp SP2 install.

4. One real problem I have noticed is tearing. This happens on all files but it's easy to spot only on those with high motion or flickering image. Haali said he'd be working on this (that was a few weeks ago).

5. Haali's renderer does not use Overlay ! It uses YUY2/RGB texture/render surfaces, just like VMR9 does ! So, of course using Overlay output will give nothing on TV-out ! And having TV-out output would probably require some other things to be implemented, things that were not really a proirity for a test release...

Egh

25th March 2006, 16:53

1.

2.

5.

As for 1. and 5. I pretty much told the same already :)

As for number 2, it could be a good explanation. I myself don't use VSFilter though :P

"And having TV-out output would probably require some other things to be implemented, things that were not really a proirity for a test release..." First, I think you still can get TV out if you change drivers configuration settings, and second, the current release of Haali renderer is no way a test release :) Test releases were prior 25th of Feb, and were not available to public.

KoD

25th March 2006, 21:42

It does look as a test release though because of the warning that's posted on Haali's website.

Regarding number 2: play the file in MPC and use graphedit to connect to the filter graph. Is there anything between the output of the video decoder and the input in Haali's renderer ?
(because magic doesn't happen ^^ )

Egh

26th March 2006, 02:38

It does look as a test release though because of the warning that's posted on Haali's website.

where is it exactly?

Regarding number 2: play the file in MPC and use graphedit to connect to the filter graph. Is there anything between the output of the video decoder and the input in Haali's renderer ?
(because magic doesn't happen ^^ )

And what should be there? :confused:

KoD

26th March 2006, 10:16

I'm sorry. Looking again on the webpage I see no warning about potential problems with the splitter. I could have sworn, though... ^^;

As for the other problem, there should be something that performs the color space conversion. Except the case that this color psace conversion is performed by the video driver (unlikely), there must be something that does it.

futurex

26th March 2006, 13:59

breez

26th March 2006, 14:24

i dont know if this has been answered already, but the delay when using haali renderer looks like its depends on the decoder. try forcing dscaler for dvd/mpeg2, when compared to intervideo for example.

on my system, using dscaler it loads instantly, while intervideo takes around 10-15 seconds

Make sure Haali renderer is on the filters list when you use Dscaler decoder. Dscaler probably outputs YV12 by default (it is switchable to YUY2 through the decoder's settings and no "auto" setting available) and that just won't work with the current Haali renderer and thus another renderer will be used (VMR7 seems to be the fallback renderer of choice in MPC).

Egh

26th March 2006, 16:58

(VMR7 seems to be the fallback renderer of choice in MPC).

i think it's more old preVMR renderer even.

futurex

27th March 2006, 01:47

its definitely using haali renderer :)

i checked the "pin info" with haali, it says input is YUY2, then i checked dscaler's "pin info" and it says YV12 for "video out"

does that mean its not working correctly/efficiently? what should it be? :)

btw im using dscaler 5.0.0.8, elecard demuxer and ffdshow raw video (i havent set ffdshow to do any processing, it just passing the video through). im using a dvb mpeg2 stream

flanger216

3rd April 2006, 23:00

Been playing around with this some more, and I've noticed I get little micro-tears in the video, similar to what VMR9 looks like when v-sync isn't working properly. For what it's worth, v-sync is forced-on in the drivers on my Radeon x1300.

breez

3rd April 2006, 23:06

KoD

4th April 2006, 23:40

KoD

5th April 2006, 22:49

Another issue: when playing something, if I pause the file the video still goes on for a little. Then I do a skip back for 5 seconds in MPC using the keyboard, I unpause playback but now the video is no longer synched to the audio. If I pause it again, skip back and unpause, video and audio are synched again.

futurex

6th April 2006, 05:37

check your cpu load when playing the file. i find it does that on hi def video, certainly not limited to haali's renderer

flanger216

21st April 2006, 08:50

Any plans on adding in some pixel-shader - based deinterlacing? That would be, well, sweet.

Egh

22nd April 2006, 00:44

Any plans on adding in some pixel-shader - based deinterlacing? That would be, well, sweet.

In theory can be done, to my knowledge. I wonder if haali himself wishes to do that, though.

flanger216

22nd April 2006, 01:49

In theory can be done, to my knowledge. I wonder if haali himself wishes to do that, though.

Yeah, I just assumed it could be done in a way similar to MPC's pixel-shader deinterlacer. Even a simple blend capability would be useful, IMO.

LoRd_MuldeR

8th May 2006, 16:00

The new version (7/05/2006) unfortunately still freezes my system for about 15 seconds each time I start playback. Is there anything I can do about that?

My specs: WinXP, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, AthlonXP 2800+

celtic_druid

8th May 2006, 16:33

Working ok here now.
Win2k SP4, ATI X1600 XT*1, X2 4200+

1-2sec delay.

My previous system I also had an excessive delay. Same video card as you to.

LoRd_MuldeR

8th May 2006, 16:45

Working ok here now.
Win2k SP4, ATI X1600 XT*1, X2 4200+

1-2sec delay.

My previous system I also had an excessive delay. Same video card as you to.

So it seems to be an incompatibility between Haali Renderer and Radeon 9800 Pro...
Problem is, that it's not only a delay. It freezes the whole system.
For example if I have web-radio playing in background and start some video in MPC with Haali Renderer enabled, the radio will also freeze.

Too sad, because Haali Renderer gives good results...

celtic_druid

8th May 2006, 16:56

Don't think it frooze the system here. I could probably put together another PC with the 9800pro in it.

LoRd_MuldeR

8th May 2006, 17:56

Don't think it frooze the system here. I could probably put together another PC with the 9800pro in it.

Maybe I should say that I use WinXP with SP-2, DirectX 9.0 (April 2006 release) and latest Omega Drivers.

EDIT: Updated to official Catalyst 6.4. No change...

Haali

8th May 2006, 21:03

LoRd_MuldeR

8th May 2006, 21:25

Could it be an incompatibility with some version of ati video drivers? Haali Renderer allocates all available VRAM at start of playback if you don't limit it in the options, so it could cause some strange effects.

I already have lastest official ATI drivers (Catalyst 6.4)
And I also tried latest Omega Drivers (based on Catalyst 6.3)
Problem unchanged with both!

I also limited VRAM to 16MB in the Haali Renderer settings (altough the 128MB of my Radeon 9800 Pro should be enough, eh?), but still no change.

So any suggestions, what can I do ???

Haali

8th May 2006, 21:31

I have no other ideas so far. I understand this happens only on ati 9800 cards, right?

LoRd_MuldeR

8th May 2006, 21:40

I have no other ideas so far. I understand this happens only on ati 9800 cards, right?

Well, it happens to me and I have only my ATI 9800 Pro.

If it happends on other 9800 Pro's this card might be the problem.
But I think it's also possible, that my specific PC is the problem.

No idea so far. Are other 9800 Pro user's here?

Palikrovol

8th May 2006, 22:00

I have a AIW 9800SE with latest Omega drivers (6.3) and i think it's ok.
It gets 8 seconds to play the movie, but is played after all.

CPU increases very much when resize to full screen.

LoopX3

8th May 2006, 23:15

I have an ATI 9800 128MB (might not be Pro) and don't have any problems. There is no delay except for loading (~1-2 sec or less).
Other comp specs: P4 2.6, WinXP SP2, DirectX (April 2006), ATI Catalyst 6.4

LoRd_MuldeR

8th May 2006, 23:21

CPU increases very much when resize to full screen.

Yes, here too.

Haali

8th May 2006, 23:27

LoRd_MuldeR

8th May 2006, 23:34

Shaders are evaluated once for each destination pixel, so if you go fullscreen there is a lot more work to be done on the gpu. GPU drivers can wait for the gpu to complete rendering by spinning in a tight loop on a cpu, and this contributes to cpu use.

Interesting. But CPU usage isn't a big problem for me. Does not go higher than 75% at maximum. The problem is the long delay it takes to startup.

What about this: If playback was already started and I press stop and then play again, it will play immediately and *not* freeze. But once I open a new file, it will again freeze for about 15 sec. Seems like the Renderer needs to be re-initialized each time I open a new file. Is there a way to avoid that? Would be some improvement, because then I only had to wait 15 secs one time...

futurex

9th May 2006, 00:59

flanger216

9th May 2006, 01:28

I have no other ideas so far. I understand this happens only on ati 9800 cards, right?

It also happens on my 512MB Radeon x1300 : about a 15-second delay, during which I get 100% CPU usage.

Sirber

9th May 2006, 01:54

sillKotscha

9th May 2006, 02:17

Any way to get overlay video mirroring on ATI?

if you use the official ati drivers and install their own control center as well, then you have to untick the coloured window...

http://i3.tinypic.com/xl9cld.png

and of course use ffdshow for overlay...

http://i3.tinypic.com/xl9gmf.png

flanger216

9th May 2006, 02:32

Works #1 on my X800XL 256MB. The more buffer I ask the more delay I get on start.

@flanger216

The decoder work at top speed to fill the buffer before the display start.

@All

Any way to get overlay video mirroring on ATI?

Oh, I know. I'm not complaining; just noting that the mysterious 15-second delay isn't limited to Radeon 9800s.

Sirber

9th May 2006, 02:40

@sillKotscha

I don't have the .NET control panel. All I have is ATI Tray Tool (http://www.radeon2.ru/atitray/). I did not find that option yet :(

[edit]

gonna get it :(

Sirber

9th May 2006, 03:00

setting the same as you now, still no overlay :(

[edit]

gonna extend desktop and fulslcreen manually then. no problem.

foxyshadis

9th May 2006, 11:20

I have a little weirdness with Haali's. Half-D1 video (ye olde VHS) gets double-sized by the renderer, and then resized again when set to full screen. At least, I think it's resizing twice, because it looks aliased as hell, presumably the effect of bicubic's sharper resize. (Especially on low A values, almost looks like point sampling.)

(On the other hand, noticing finally got me to switch on ffdshow's resize. I don't suppose there's any way to do spline resize even partially in a shader...? So much better looking than normal kernel resizers.)

Haali

9th May 2006, 15:48

No, resizing is done only once, but the size reported to the player is adjusted so the video fits the screen and is not too small.

flanger216

9th May 2006, 17:29

I still have the bug in Zoom Player where enlarging the video past 'full screen' (with 4:3 letterboxed content, for instance) causes the screen to blank out to a black screen.

B.F.

10th May 2006, 02:06

Haali
I had a GF6600 card and I had a 5 sec delay on the startup.
Drivers ForceWare 84.25

And I think you need make this autoresizig thing optional.

Soulhunter

10th May 2006, 08:07

I have a little weirdness with Haali's. Half-D1 video (ye olde VHS) gets double-sized by the renderer, and then resized again when set to full screen. At least, I think it's resizing twice, because it looks aliased as hell, presumably the effect of bicubic's sharper resize. (Especially on low A values, almost looks like point sampling.)
Looks it like this (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=772467&postcount=66) maybe?

Bye

foxyshadis

10th May 2006, 08:40

That's referring to the chroma interpolation? No, this is on the luma channel also. I guess that A=0 actually is point sampling, so that kind of makes sense now, and once I thought about it I realized that two bicubic resizes would actually look a lot better than a single huge jump from 320x240 to 1280x1024 anyway (just try it in photoshop, the more resize steps the nicer it looks, although it thickens edges). It's that one huge leap that looks so nasty. So letting ffdshow resize partway under a certain resolution is probably the best way anyway, if you can spare the cpu power.

Soulhunter

10th May 2006, 09:06

That's referring to the chroma interpolation?
No, wasnt about chroma interpolation, its some sort of "scaling bug" (jaggy edges) my old radeon produced when feeding RGB stuff with a horizontal resolution above 768 pix. to the overlay!

Bye

LoRd_MuldeR

10th May 2006, 12:39

@Haali:

I can playback verious files with only one time initializing the Haali Renderer. This is possible in Gaph Edit. Just keep the renderer on the graph, add new video and connect to existing Renderer. This way I have the "freezing effect", that happens when Haali Renderer is initialized, only one time, and *not* each time I play a new file. A great improvement for me. So I think this should be possible with Players like MPC too, eh? So is it the Renderer itself or a the player that needs to be updatet to support that feture? And if it's the renderer, did you ever think about adding this feature?

KoD

10th May 2006, 19:54

I have the same problem with waiting time during starting playback. It's a period in which the CPU is used at 100%. I'd say the length of the wait time is proportional with the CPU one has and not anything else. My 2.4 GHz P4 shows signs of its age.

I have a Radeon 9700Pro (so, even older than the 9800Pro) and no matter what Catalyst driver I have used since the haali renderer appeared, this problem happened all the time.

Sirber

10th May 2006, 20:02

normal, you have to fill the buffer, so your CPU decode like crazy to do it. The bigger the buffer you set, the longer the delay is.

Haali

11th May 2006, 07:55

normal, you have to fill the buffer, so your CPU decode like crazy to do it. The bigger the buffer you set, the longer the delay is.
This is incorrect. Playback starts immediately while the decoder can proceed on another thead if it can decode more data. I use a rather high priority for the renderer thread, so it's unlikely that a running decoder prevents the renderer from displaying video. Also ppl with slow startup problem experience the delay only when directx objects are initially created, not when playback starts from stopped state. I think it's some unexpected interaction with the driver or directx that causes such a long delay.

LoRd_MuldeR

11th May 2006, 08:56

This is incorrect. Playback starts immediately while the decoder can proceed on another thead if it can decode more data. I use a rather high priority for the renderer thread, so it's unlikely that a running decoder prevents the renderer from displaying video. Also ppl with slow startup problem experience the delay only when directx objects are initially created, not when playback starts from stopped state. I think it's some unexpected interaction with the driver or directx that causes such a long delay.

Ist here a way to fix that :confused:

B.F.

11th May 2006, 09:19

Haali

11th May 2006, 13:09

Can you make a render priority lower?
I don't want to do that, because the renderer needs to display frames at the requested timestamps. If it had a low priority, then decoding could interfere with that and increase jitter.

Haali

11th May 2006, 13:11

Ist here a way to fix that :confused:
There probably is, but so far the cause is not clear.

celtic_druid

11th May 2006, 14:20

Unfortunatly I changed too much in my system to determine what exactly fixed the problem here.
Different video cards.
Different CPU.
Different MB chipsets.

LoRd_MuldeR

11th May 2006, 15:13

There probably is, but so far the cause is not clear.

Is there any way I can help to find the problem ???

mike_lee

11th May 2006, 15:45

Haali, I'm like a big fan - haha, to me you are a rock star - I don't know why I got that impression :-)
Anyway, I am trying to use my new PC with g a eforce 7900 GTX card. I like ffdshow because I can change image settings (using ffpresets) on the fly. I have to moniter and review a lot of video clips at once. At around 6 clips the screen starts to get cluttered and the processors start to lag. However, using the haali renderer, which looks better to my eyes then vmr9, I can no longer tweak the ffdshow filters in real time, there is quite a delay between the time you move a fader inside ffdshow (picture properties, gamma, saturation etc) and the time the clip responds. So I wonder if you have any suggestions?

Keep up the good work.

mike_lee

11th May 2006, 15:45

- - - Dp - - -

Haali

11th May 2006, 19:51

B.F.

12th May 2006, 02:18

I don't want to do that, because the renderer needs to display frames at the requested timestamps. If it had a low priority, then decoding could interfere with that and increase jitter.
Then how about make priority control like in VDub? :)

Haali

12th May 2006, 08:11

Then how about make priority control like in VDub? :)
I don't understand why would anyone deliberately set up a system in such a way that frames can be displayed at a wrong time. It's essential for correct presentation that rendering is not delayed by other activity, especially since my renderer does this on a separate thread, and not on the decoder thread, where the decoder is suspended while waiting for presentation time. It is not some background encoding after all.

B.F.

12th May 2006, 09:08

Just for test. :)
And I don't think too high priority is a good idea.

P.S.
Maybe you separate render progect from the splitter?

LoRd_MuldeR

19th June 2006, 22:02

Any news on the "player freezes for 15 sec on the start of playback" bug ???

Haali

19th June 2006, 22:29

Not yet. So far I couldn't reproduce this. If someone relibaly hits the bug, please contact me via pm.

mike_lee

20th June 2006, 11:15

haali renderer has become my default. video looks better and since I have a large (too large) monitor the resizing superiority really made a huge difference.

Good job man.

Esc

27th June 2006, 17:36

MPC 6.4.9.0 + Haali Renderer = black screen
Any video codec (tested with Divx and AVC)
NVidia GeForce FX 5200
WinXP SP2
Any ideas why?

Egh

27th June 2006, 19:31

MPC 6.4.9.0 + Haali Renderer = black screen
Any video codec (tested with Divx and AVC)
NVidia GeForce FX 5200
WinXP SP2
Any ideas why?

Sure you forced RGB32 output, comrade? Besides, FX5200 is way too low to really use Haali renderer. I have FX5500 here, and +15-20% OCed. Still software resizer works faster.

Sirber

27th June 2006, 22:08

haali renderer has become my default. video looks better and since I have a large (too large) monitor the resizing superiority really made a huge difference.

Good job man.is it better than WMR9 + Bicubic (-1.00, PS2)?

videomixer9

27th June 2006, 22:22

btw. is that some kind of making fun of it or why do you use WMR instead of VMR all the time? :P

Esc

27th June 2006, 23:13

Sure you forced RGB32 output, comrade? Besides, FX5200 is way too low to really use Haali renderer. I have FX5500 here, and +15-20% OCed. Still software resizer works faster.
Da, comrade. If by "force" you mean go to ffdshow and uncheck in "Supported Output Colorspaces" everything but RGB32 then yes, I did that. Didn't help. And I doubt it would since my avc content is played not with ffdshow but has the same problem.
Also I forgot to mention that Haali Splitter was downloaded and installed today. Twice. So it's the latest version for sure (1.6.162.22).
And I've got another comrade who has downloaded and installed CCCP (unlike me who always install things individually). He has the same problem. That's how it actually started. He asked me if Haali Renderer was working with me.
I'll try it home on my 6600GT.

foxyshadis

27th June 2006, 23:59

is it better than WMR9 + Bicubic (-1.00, PS2)?
Haali's is a drop-in replacement for VMR9. You can enable the same shaders as you can with VMR9 renderless.

Sirber

28th June 2006, 00:05

btw. is that some kind of making fun of it or why do you use WMR instead of VMR all the time? :Ptypo, nothing more.

Sirber

28th June 2006, 00:08

wierd...

Haali (-1) is sharper than VMR9 + Bicubic (-1)...

LoRd_MuldeR

28th June 2006, 00:48

is it better than WMR9 + Bicubic (-1.00, PS2)?

Well, for my eyes VMR9 Renderless Bicubic-Mode and Haali Renderer look pretty much the same. Can't say which one looks better. The Problem with VMR9 is, that it needs software YUV->RGB convertion while Haali Renderer displays YUV correctly here. But the problem with Haali is, that it feezes my system for aboz 15 secs each time I open a new video. And since I've tons of 4:00 minute vids on my HDD, that's really nasty. Hope it get's fixed one day...

Egh

28th June 2006, 12:33

Well, for my eyes VMR9 Renderless Bicubic-Mode and Haali Renderer look pretty much the same. Can't say which one looks better.

Well if you read all messages here you know that both those things were actually done by Haali :)

And note that VMR9 bicubic resize scripting is inferior to Haali renderer in terms of performance, due to constraint to use single-pass only in MPC at the time that script was done. I believe Gabest implemented support for 2-pass modes in MPC since then, but I rekon the script remains same :P

Sirber

28th June 2006, 12:52

I already read all messages ;)

but with the delay haali renderer is not useable :(

Esc

28th June 2006, 15:03

I agree that such a long open delay makes it quite less attractive.

breez

28th June 2006, 20:34

Is a newer renderer than the one bundled with Haali Splitter 1.6.162.22 (07/05/2006) available?

Sirber

28th June 2006, 20:58

don't think so, didn't have a new release for a while now.

LoRd_MuldeR

28th June 2006, 21:50

I plan to make a debug build in a couple of days, maybe we'll see where it waits so long.

Hope this will help to fix the freezing problem...

Sirber

28th June 2006, 22:11

it even jam iTunes... :confused:

mike_lee

6th July 2006, 13:27

It's not a delay or a freeze, it's buffering data like 10 billion other software apps. If you don't want to use a decoder that buffers that's OK (and I can see why you wouldn't if it takes your PC 15 seconds to buffer 16 megs)

Haali

6th July 2006, 18:14

No, buffering doesn't happen until you start playback. And the delay (on a few systems) occurs before that, when the graph is created.

mike_lee

8th July 2006, 09:49

I'm sure I posted an apology but I don't see it. So I'm sorry for smarting off LoRd_MuldeR.

LoRd_MuldeR

8th July 2006, 10:02

00000000 0.00000000 [3600] ACM DRV_OPEN 11 0019A3C0
00000001 0.00012404 [3600] ACM ACMDM_DRIVER_DETAILS 11 0019A3C0
00000002 0.00015812 [3600] ACM ACMDM_FORMATTAG_DETAILS 11 0019A3C0
00000003 0.00019807 [3600] ACM ACMDM_FORMATTAG_DETAILS 11 0019A3C0
00000004 0.00028104 [3600] ACM ACMDM_DRIVER_ABOUT 11 0019A3C0
00000005 0.00107444 [3600] ACM ACMDM_FORMATTAG_DETAILS 11 0019A3C0
00000006 0.10823023 [3600] ACM DRV_CLOSE 11 0019A3C0
00000007 5.79527950 [3600] REN: CDXR created 02A52220
00000008 6.33728600 [3600] REN: Pause
00000009 6.33743763 [3600] REN: Commit
00000010 6.33747149 [3600] REN: InitAll
00000011 6.37628746 [3600] REN: Commit
00000012 6.37633419 [3600] REN: D3DI 1
00000013 6.39212847 [3600] REN: D3DI 2
00000014 6.39222336 [3600] REN: D3DI 3
00000015 6.39535093 [3600] REN: D3DI 4
00000016 6.39556217 [3600] REN: D3DI 5
00000017 6.40449286 [3600] REN: D3DI 6
00000018 6.40476370 [3600] REN: D3DI 7
00000019 6.40480375 [3600] REN: D3DI 8
00000020 6.40492916 [3600] REN: D3DA 1
00000021 6.40563822 [3600] REN: D3DA 2
00000022 6.40578270 [3600] REN: D3DA 3
00000023 6.40660095 [3600] REN: D3DA 4
00000024 6.40666437 [3600] REN: D3DA 5
00000025 6.40789604 [3600] REN: D3DA 6
00000026 6.40794277 [3600] REN: D3DA 8
00000027 6.41301060 [3600] REN: Allocated 34 buffers
00000028 6.41313028 [3600] REN: D3DA 9
00000029 6.89275026 [3600] REN: MT
00000030 6.89533567 [3600] REN: Present. (NextSample)
00000031 6.90694046 [3600] REN: Run
00000032 6.90735769 [3600] REN: Present. (PaintCur)
00000033 6.90764570 [3600] REN: No image in backbuffer for presentation. (ShowSample)
00000034 6.91077232 [3848] 114307745 has capabilities; 0
00000035 18.33591080 [3600] REN: Present. (PaintCur)
00000036 18.33595276 [3600] REN: Pause
00000037 18.34675789 [3600] REN: Commit
00000038 18.34683609 [3600] REN: InitAll
00000039 18.34687042 [3600] REN: BeginFlush
00000040 18.34701347 [3600] REN: Decommit
00000041 18.34709167 [3600] REN: DiscardInput
00000042 18.34726524 [3600] REN: DiscardVQ
00000043 18.34730148 [3600] REN: EndFlush
00000044 18.34749222 [3600] REN: Commit
00000045 18.34758949 [3600] REN: Run
00000046 18.34762001 [3600] REN: Pause
00000047 18.34873390 [3600] REN: Commit
00000048 18.34881210 [3600] REN: InitAll
00000049 18.34884644 [3600] REN: Stop
00000050 18.34905434 [3600] REN: Decommit
00000051 18.34908867 [3600] REN: DiscardInput
00000052 18.34927559 [3600] REN: Decommit
00000053 18.34929466 [3600] REN: DiscardVQ
00000054 18.36106682 [3600] REN: Present. (PaintCur)
00000055 36.12074661 [3848] 91012485 has capabilities; 32505856
00000056 36.61196518 [3848] 91012485 has capabilities; 32505856

So it doesn't happen during the init phase. too bad.

3ngel

8th July 2006, 11:00

Installed latest Haali Splitter.
The problem in the initial ENORMOUS amout of time to start playback it's still here. It's a pity 'cause i think this is a fundamental things that prevents most of us from even only *testing* this renderer ('cause it's obviously unusable in real contexts due to the unacceptable initial delay).
Tested with ATI X800.

Sirber

8th July 2006, 12:39

reported already many many times ;)

anonymez

26th July 2006, 02:34

been having a problem since first or second release; when i try to seek while playing a dvd, video stops and mpc becomes unresponsive. works fine with overlay/vmr. tried different video & audio decoders, dscaler, intervideo and mpc's internal. playing the individual VOBs works fine, as do all other files.

since i don't think it's been mentioned before, can anyone reproduce it? a decrypted dvd will do, so long as you play the video_ts.ifo :)

B.F.

26th July 2006, 05:00

anonymez

26th July 2006, 05:33

thanks, thought it was just me (and 3 of my PC's) :)

rig_veda

7th August 2006, 23:33

Tested the renderer that came with the 2006-07-07 splitter on a 2.8Ghz Northwood with hyperthreading and Geforce5700FX. I didn't have any delays of the sort people described.
CPU utilisation is considerably higher than when using overlay or vmr9. I initially had hoped that doing the YUY2->RGB conversion on the GPU instead of YV12->RGB on the CPU via ffdshow, would give me more free CPU cycles, but it seems the other way around on my hardware.

Anyway, what I'd like to ask Haali: how exact is the YUY2->RGB conversion done by the ps2 code? Is it identical in precision to AviSynth's ConvertToRGB or ffdshow's high quality mode? Haali Renderer definitely looks better than GeForce5700FX's hardware conversion (e.g. less banding in gradients), just like AviSynth and ffdshow do.

Sirber

11th August 2006, 14:32

Still having the delay, X800XL AGP.

MacAddict

11th August 2006, 15:47

Anxious to try this out! Anyone know if my 9700 Pro would provide acceptable performance? I've seen a few in this thread with a 9800.

Seb.26

12th August 2006, 14:44

[solved]

Where picture properties (Brightness/Contrast/Hue/Gamma) can be set for using Haalli render ???
Is it same as overlay setup in panel control ?!
... Or is it in DirectX ???
( I've got NVidia 6600GT - Fw 91.31 WHQL )

Thanks for the help . :)

[Edit]
Thanks to KoD : the setup can be done in DirectX Panel control ( Haali use Direct3D to render frames )
:)

KoD

13th August 2006, 09:54

I have a Radeon 9700 Pro and I can tell you that it's faster than using bicubic software resize in ffdshow.

There will be a few quirks, though:

- higher playback start-up time
- when you pause or skip back/forward you may loose video-to-audio synch. This is solved by simply pausing the video again and/or skipping even further back or forward and then letting it play again.
- force output to RGB32 in all your video decoders (easy to set this in ffdshow and coreavc); YUY2 output involves too much processing for the pixel shaders on a Radeon 9700 Pro and you'll have high kernel cpu loads
- sometimes you'll notice jerky pans and tearing. Enabling "Lock back-buffer before presenting" in MPC will cure this most of the time when using MPC to view your video files. You'll also have to disable the "SoftLock" option in Haali's renderer otherwise it won't work.

MacAddict

13th August 2006, 19:28

Thanks for the information. I've just installed the 9700 today in my HTPC and using this render I have to say the image quality is excellent. I'm using the max sharpness setting along with RGB32. The A64 3200 is easily playing back my movies hovering around 50% of usage. I only experience about a 2 second delay on startup, not a big problem at all.

Any suggestions which video drivers provide all around better image quality and performance with Haali's renderer?

KoD

13th August 2006, 21:41

All video drivers are the same. Just don't force antialiasing by default in them. Leave it to "application preference".

As for Seb.26, Haali's renderer has no Brightness/Contrast/Hue/Gamma controls. But you can just use your video card drivers settings for Brightness/Contrast/Hue/Gamma for Direct3D (if nvidia drivers have something like that). If not, use a third party application like Powerstrip that allows you to alter the LUT table. I don't have a nvidia card, so I don't know of any free app that can do this for a nvidia card, but they might exist, so ask around.

Seb.26

17th August 2006, 11:34

Haali

17th August 2006, 20:17

SeeMoreDigital

17th August 2006, 20:28

Hi Haali,

May I as what the most up-to-date version is of your splitter is that can handle MPEG-4 AVC within TS... And where it can be obtained.

I would like to try it with some of the new MBAFF compatible vesions of FFdshow ;)

mariner

18th August 2006, 05:12

Hi Haali,

Greetings and thank you for the excellent spltter and renderer.

Have been using the renderer in mpc for a while now, but could not get it to display 1920x1080 when playing HD .ts files. The display window stays at somethins like 640x480. Any assistance would be most appreciated.

Thank you and best regards.

ernesto

Seb.26

18th August 2006, 08:48

Seb.26 Resizing and colorspace conversion is slower on older hardware, gf6800 or better have no problems with it. And slow startup happens rarely, I've been unable to identify the issue so far since I don't have problematic hardware and can't reproduce it.
OK, I've 6600GT and A64@2.4GHz ... faster to use CPU or GPU ???

-> For the delay, I will make serious tests and report results ...

Haali

18th August 2006, 19:16

Have been using the renderer in mpc for a while now, but could not get it to display 1920x1080 when playing HD .ts files. The display window stays at somethins like 640x480. Any assistance would be most appreciated.

The initial size is lowered to fit the screen because I hate windows that needlessly span beyond the screen edges. You can still resize the video to whatever size you like.

mariner

21st August 2006, 09:22

Hi Haali, thanks for the reply.

I use a 1920x1200 screen for 1080 .ts files playback, with mpc set to 100% zoom to avoid any scaling artifacts. When Haali renderer is used, the initial window size is about 640x480, and stays the same if I enaged full screen. Is this the expected behaviour, and how to get a 1902x1080 window ?

A related question : are there plans to implement the "full screen exclusive mode" , which some claim to speed up performance?

Thanks and best regards.

dumbuser

22nd August 2006, 05:18

Have been using the Haali splitter now for some time and look for updates quite regularly. I do appreciate the work here and the concepts brought to life. :D

I would like to ask the dumb question though! Is there any plan to support the old QuickTime ASP MP4?

I can make them or download them and it works fine in QT but have never been able to play them using your front end.

Have checked this with Graph edit, it just will not open. Nero works as well as 3ivx of coarse. No it isn't a conflict as I have never had all of these installed at the same time and as I said, I have and use Graph edit.

Thanks!

mike_lee

22nd August 2006, 17:21

I have a question ( maybe a stupid one ) :

Why use Haali render ?!
> If resizing is slower than pure CPU one ( FFDShow )
> If it's adding a delay before first frame display ( about 7s for me )

PS: thanks a lot KoD for your answer ;)

I have a large LCD screen, haali re-sizes much, much netter then ffdshow and it's automatic (You choose bi-cubic in MPC-output) although I have no idea why it enlarges when I didn't specify the size anywhere, it just doubles the size on most clips. I keep a different MPC version in my windows tray which is set to VMR9 for when I need shaders. The coloring is somewhat better with haali as well. But the settings are cryptic, I have no idea where to set the sharpness slider, I'm a "soften" kind of guy and sharpening bugs the hell out of me. -0.00 is impossible isn't it? ::ribs Haali:: Also not sure what soft vsync does but I have it checked.

Seb.26

23rd August 2006, 08:34

I have a large LCD screen, haali re-sizes much, much netter then ffdshow and it's automatic (You choose bi-cubic in MPC-output) although I have no idea why it enlarges when I didn't specify the size anywhere, it just doubles the size on most clips. I keep a different MPC version in my windows tray which is set to VMR9 for when I need shaders. The coloring is somewhat better with haali as well. But the settings are cryptic, I have no idea where to set the sharpness slider, I'm a "soften" kind of guy and sharpening bugs the hell out of me. -0.00 is impossible isn't it? ::ribs Haali:: Also not sure what soft vsync does but I have it checked.
Have you really try FFDShow ?! ( with Lanczos ) ...
Because Halli can't be better ... FFDShow can use Lanczos or Bicubic ( like Haalli ) ... done in software ... but with RGB32 output with HQ 16..235 mapping correction ... :rolleyes:

Halli is a great output filter, but for the moment, it's too young for me : about 7s before starting ( with the minimum buffer ?! where does this CPU time go ??? ) ... some problem with pause and seek ... And Haalli use more CPU than FFDShow+Overlay for me ( 2.4 GHz A64 CPU with 6600GT GPU ) ...

But I'm waiting the next version to see what have change ... :D

foxyshadis

23rd August 2006, 18:39

I have a large LCD screen, haali re-sizes much, much netter then ffdshow and it's automatic (You choose bi-cubic in MPC-output) although I have no idea why it enlarges when I didn't specify the size anywhere, it just doubles the size on most clips. I keep a different MPC version in my windows tray which is set to VMR9 for when I need shaders. The coloring is somewhat better with haali as well. But the settings are cryptic, I have no idea where to set the sharpness slider, I'm a "soften" kind of guy and sharpening bugs the hell out of me. -0.00 is impossible isn't it? ::ribs Haali:: Also not sure what soft vsync does but I have it checked.
VSync keeps tearing down, at the cost of occasionally dropping frames if the decoder isn't fast enough.

It only enlarges below 600x400 or so, because who wants to watch a 320x240 window on a 1600x1200 screen? Same deal with 1920x1080 video, it sizes down. But it only resizes once in fullscreen no matter what the output size in windowed mode is.

Seb.26

24th August 2006, 08:49

VSync keeps tearing down, at the cost of occasionally dropping frames if the decoder isn't fast enough.
With Haali's render (thanks to the buffer in the graphic card) you can't have dropped frame due to the decoder speed on bitrate peak ...

For exemple with DVD : 720*480 in RGB32 -> 1350KB per frame in GC RAM -> about 50 frames (with 64MB buffer) -> more than 1 seconds buffered ... without any cropping before render ...

This is really the big good point for Haali ( IMO of course ) ...
... But the resizing method in Haali is also really good and simple for them who don't like FFDShow ...

Does anybody have an idea for the next version released ???

foxyshadis

24th August 2006, 18:27

That doesn't help if you're pushing the system so hard you still run out of buffer.

Something I'm curious about: Who controls dropping frames? The decoder, the renderer, or something else? I can't seem to force slowdowns to become framedrops anymore, which is irritating - I'd much rather drop frames occasionally than end up with a video permenently out of sync after the problem point.

Seb.26

25th August 2006, 11:02

That doesn't help if you're pushing the system so hard you still run out of buffer.
Yes, but in this case, your system can't play the movies ...

[DeliriumMode=true]
... or imagine a buffer about 1h frames ... that take about 2h to fill ...
... your can watch 1h30 of your film without any dropped frame ... but your system is about 50% 'to small' to play this ...
... But this have non-sens, buffer cost is about 2.3GB per minute in 720*480(32b)@30fps ... !!! ... maybe a day with
[DeliriumMode=false]

Something I'm curious about: Who controls dropping frames?
+10000

Why sometimes, the CPU is clear ( about 30% for DVD without PostProcessing ), the RAM is OK ( 1GB ), all is ok, but a frame is dropped ... or a frame have tearing ...

Why ?

With Halli's Render, I hope this will "the past" ... because with a lot of frames in Graphic RAM I hope video will playback without any dropped frame ... :D

Isochroma

25th August 2006, 18:47

Notes:

1. Using Haali's MKV splitter (with MKV sourcefile), the control item under Filters named "Haali's Video Renderer" is not shown when ffdshow outputs YV12. Other pixel formats result in its visibility. However, any formats other than YV12 are impossibly slow to render (no problems here with other MPC modes).

2. "Load Subtitles" option in context-menu is grayed out when using Haali's Renderer (using MKV sourcefile without subtitles). Also, since rendering is impossibly slow in anything else but YV12, I cannot play any softsubbed files using this renderer, because MPC refuses YV12 connections when subtitles are present. Gabest, please fix MPC!

Hardware is OC'd Athlon XP (2333 MHz.) AGP8X FX5200 (128 MB) on ASUS A8V8X MB, 2.5 GB RAM.

KoD

25th August 2006, 20:50

Notes to Isochroma:

- if you would take the time to read the thread from the beginning, you would see that Haali's renderer accepts YUY2 or RGB32 input by default and does not accept YV12. Something must perform the conversion to YUY2 or RGB32 for the renderer to be used, preferably the video decoder itself.

- Haali's renderer uses PS 2.0 shaders to perform its magic. In case of YUY2 input, the shaders are even longer and use your gfx card even more. And all FX5xxx Nvidia series are known to have poor shader performance. It was a big case back when the cards appeared. So, force RGB32 output in your video decoder and if that is not enough then your system is just not powerful enough to use this renderer.

Isochroma

25th August 2006, 22:13

Sorry, but YV12 works fine here. All other modes run at 1/2 framerate. Theory and practice are two different creatures entirely.

foxyshadis

26th August 2006, 06:10

Sounds like your FX5200 just can't handle Haali's - if it isn't in the filter list then you aren't using it, it falls back on VMR9 or overlay instead when YV12 is used. Evidenced by its dismal performance when it is used. The performance on mine with YUY2, YV12, or RGB32 are all pretty close, the conversion probably takes practically no time, it's the filter itself that sucks up speed.

Yes, but in this case, your system can't play the movies ...
Well, I meant for long enough to overtake the buffer, which is only second or less of HD AVC bitrate spike to bleed it dry. Not to say it won't help, it certainly will.

On the other hand, I just set it to 256M, because I have more than enough memory. =p I wouldn't mind a 1G buffer if it used it smartly!

dumbuser

26th August 2006, 20:20

The Haali splitter version 1.6.224.23 thumbs renderer crashes Windows Explorer (XP SP2) when new videos are added to the folder. The prior version 1.6.162.22 did not do this. Until this can be resolved I have had to revert to the older version.

On a positive note the MPEG TS/TP front end is working well. Is there a possibility for h.264 support in a MPEG TS/TP in the future?

FYI I have resolved the MP4 ASP problem. Is seems that when uninstalling one of the MP4 decoders it did not give back control to XviD or DivX until a reinstall of either of these. While XviD or DivX does not have this problem 3ivx does. Sorry to imply the problem may be yours. :)

Update: The problem occurs when adding a 25 FPS video to an existing folder. If you want to induce the problem erase the thumbs.db and enter and exit the folder a few times.

Also I would like to note that I have never been able to use OGG because the thumbs renderer will crash for some OGG/OGM files OGMs in particular made with the original Tobias encoder. Installing and using that filter set does not display the same problem for any OGG/OGM file and thumbs do render properly.

clsid

26th August 2006, 22:29

It already supports H.264 in TS.

Seb.26

28th August 2006, 17:45

On the other hand, I just set it to 256M, because I have more than enough memory. =p I wouldn't mind a 1G buffer if it used it smartly!
You have 512MB of CG RAM ?!!! ... :eek:

Whaoo ... With my little 128MB, I already think it's too much ...
... 256MB of RAM = 1 second buffer lenght ( 1900*1080*32b@30fps ) ... if with that you can't have smooth playback, you will never have !!! :p :D

Have fun,
Seb

PS: with this biffer size, how many seconds have you to wait before playback start ?! :confused:

PPS: anybody know something about next public release of Haali's Render ??? ( Project still running ?! )

Isochroma

28th August 2006, 19:08

Bug: Using the latest Haali renderer and MPC, when the numpad 8 & 2 are used for expanding/shrinking the video vertically, using normal rendering modes this works fine. But the HR resizes the entire video frame horizontally as well as vertically, when it should only be changing the vertical size. Probably happens for the 'horizontal only' MPC options too.

dumbuser

29th August 2006, 03:15

It already supports H.264 in TS.

Using whos decoder filter?

Not Nero, Ateme or CoreAVC! But it does do MPEG quite well! :D

chros

29th August 2006, 09:38

Seb.26

29th August 2006, 10:28

Something I'm curious about: Who controls dropping frames? The decoder, the renderer, or something else? I can't seem to force slowdowns to become framedrops anymore, which is irritating - I'd much rather drop frames occasionally than end up with a video permenently out of sync after the problem point.
Have you try Reclock audio render ?!
... if not ... it could be a big step 4 U ... :D

And also try 91.47 forceware (from 3d Guru), they are ... amazing
( great ones ! ;) )

clsid

29th August 2006, 12:30

Using whos decoder filter?

Not Nero, Ateme or CoreAVC! But it does do MPEG quite well! :D
Haali's splitter is bundled with CoreAVC and it works fine on most H.264 TS files for me.

Maybe this is your problem:Warning: TS files with missing PAT/PMT tables are not supported.

dumbuser

30th August 2006, 22:28

Haali's splitter is bundled with CoreAVC and it works fine on most H.264 TS files for me.

Maybe this is your problem:

I did notice the bundling of Haali with CoreAVC but already had the latest version. Is there something special about the bundled version. If so isn't this going to get rather confusing next time anyone updates Haali?

The problem is not PAT/PMT.

dumbuser

4th September 2006, 02:01

It already supports H.264 in TS.

I tried! And you are correct in that there are two versions. The one that is packed with CoreAVC is older than the latest public release and works slightly worse. However neither one of these supports H.264 in a MPEG TS container. I would suggest either uninstalling Gabest's mpegsplitter (if installed) or shutting it down in MPC if that's what your using to judge this.

Unfortunately I have been forced to go back to an earlier version because the thumbs render crashes Explorer when 25 FPS videos are added to the video folder. The same thing happens with OGM files made with the Tobias filters. So the MPEG TS thing will have to wait until Haali gets fixed.

clsid

4th September 2006, 12:39

I am using the latest version and it works fine on for example "BBC_H264_test6.ts" in combination with CoreAVC 1.1. PM Haali himself if you don't believe me. It may not work on all TS files. It is still in early development. I prefer Gabest splitter too atm.

molitar

5th September 2006, 23:00

Tried Haali and not for me. It breaks the secondary output to full screen. Otherwise it worked alright so I went back to vmr9.

oddball

6th September 2006, 00:08

Haali is giving me problems playing back Transport Streams (.TS). Some it will play and fast seek just fine whilst others it will balk at. When it refuses to work I get a blank screen and it just stays stuck with an incorrect playback length displayed. Using Zoom Player 5 preview. I have tried running the .TS files through MPEG2Repair and it makes no difference. I understand that Haali does not support .TS files with invalid PAT/PMT. Is there any way to check if the files I have contain it and any way to fix it?

EDIT: I split a 4.3GB file into 700 meg chunks and the 3rd split part gave me the same problems. Again running it through MPEG2Repair did not fix it enough to playback. After opening it in Avidemux and saving that part with direct stream copy it would then playback using Haali. However the AC3 audio was several hundred milliseconds out of sync. Going to try joining the two main large .TS files together using TSplitter and then run the entire thing through Avidemux to see what happens. I may have to correct for audio sync and then resplit it later.

SeeMoreDigital

6th September 2006, 08:06

Hi Oddball,

Out of interest.... Is there any particular reason why you want to keep your files as .TS streams?

By the time you've run them thru' MPEG2 Repair you might as well have run them thru' HDTVtoMPEG2 and re-muxed the streams into the .MPG container....

Just a thought!

oddball

6th September 2006, 11:22

I tried running it through HDTV2MPEG and it keeps splitting the files into 1GB chunks whereas I want to keep it in one big file. I could not playback the chunks either.

EDIT: In the end I just ran it through Avidemux and set the audio sync to -500 which seems close enough. There are flaws in this rip anyhow such as telecine 'bounce' (Image moves up and down where the telecine machine is not set correctly. Either that or the source film was problematic). I won't go into more detail than that due to this boards rules. Thanks for the suggestions though even if they did not help much.

chros

17th September 2006, 11:21

I don't know if it was mentioned: this renderer mess up the display AR on anamorphic mp4-s. No problem with Overlay or WRM9 renderless.

Seb.26

18th September 2006, 10:39

I don't know if it was mentioned: this renderer mess up the display AR on anamorphic mp4-s. No problem with Overlay or WRM9 renderless.
+1 ... same problem with anamoprhic video ... numeric key '2' in MPC is usefull ... ;)

Seb.26

18th September 2006, 10:41

An idea of new feature : An option to display some informations about the buffer, to detect underflow for exemple ... this could be usefull, not ?

chros

18th September 2006, 12:33

+1 ... same problem with anamoprhic video ... numeric key '2' in MPC is usefull ... ;)
I know this, but a bug is a bug ... :)

MaXi_TK96

3rd October 2006, 19:14

I am having a specific subtitle problem with Haali renderer, the same subtitles are displaying twice: once in the actual picture frame and then outside of it (as much bigger here). I am using MPC (Haali renderer) with Haali splitter and DirectVobSub. If I disable sub showing from DirectVobSub then both subs will be gone. This behaviour seems to be depending on the subtitle type, ASS subtitles are being displayed twice but not SRT subs. Is there some setting I am missing or is this about something else ?

foxyshadis

3rd October 2006, 20:31

MaXi_TK96

4th October 2006, 07:05

This only happens with Haali, and not VMR9? If both, it sounds more like an MPC & DirectVobSub interaction problem. A bit odd to use them together with a DX9 renderer anyway, since MPC internally already has exactly the same code as directvobsub; normally it'd be used in overlay or other players.

Okay, I feel so stupid here: this was all due to MPC's subtitling engine starting to work when using Haali renderer or VMR9. I though I had disabled MPC's subtitling engine from the options menu but apparently it needs to be disabled from playback menu too. Now working as I wanted. As far as the renderer goes I was surprised about how good the output was. If only files would start playing faster... still great work!

Kador

7th October 2006, 14:41

Hi, why is it tv-scale only ???

Haali

7th October 2006, 18:08

Hi, why is it tv-scale only ???
Because I don't have any PC-scale files.

foxyshadis

7th October 2006, 22:58

That's odd, it's always PC-scale for me, I usually run a levels beforehand if I need to.

breez

7th October 2006, 23:05

PC scale for me too. I suggest adding an option TV-scale/PC-scale though.

Haali

8th October 2006, 00:42

Just to make sure I'm not confusing things, TV scale usually means 16-235 Y levels, and that's what is usually used on DVDs and stuff like that. Are you saying that your files that use the full 0-255 range? In that case you can simply use VMR9 as its default behaviour was to use the full range. One of the reasons I've made this renderer was to correct the levels problem.

foxyshadis

8th October 2006, 00:57

Yeah, on my ATI X1400 system it decodes 0-255->0-255. VMR9 has the same behavior. It's been this way through several driver revisions. I don't mind it this way.

anonymez

8th October 2006, 01:01

in addition to post #160. this one is with 1440x1080 mpeg2 streams, i just get a black screen and MPC locks up. link to a small (4mb) sample below to save you the trouble

http://www.sendspace.com/file/cb9hp1

a few observations to cancel a few things out:

-works fine in overlay & vmr
-1920x1080 mpeg2 streams play fine
-xvid stream at the same res, 1440x1080 plays too
-container and audio makes no difference, tried ts/ps/es
-tried different splitters/decoders
-tried on two different systems, each with decent graphics cards (ati X800XL & nvidia 7900GT)

Seb.26

9th October 2006, 12:10

Egh

9th October 2006, 13:31

Are you saying that your render do the 16..235 -> 0..255 re-scale ?! :scared:

And what happen if the source is RGB32 ? ...

well incoming *RGB32* is not a problem per se, since it's not a luma-chroma type of colorspace even.

The problem might actually arise if YV12 received by the renderer has been already converted to 0..255 range.

Some scenarios this might happen:

Video is decoded by CoreAVC and VMR9 correction is on
h264 is decoded by ffdshow but the video is inherently fullrange.

LOL, it seems this topic becomes an epidemic :) Note that I suspect ffdshow doesn't do proper conversion to RGB32 if video is already in fullrange. See here for some discussion on that topic: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=884562#post884562

Haali

9th October 2006, 16:45

Are you saying that your render do the 16..235 -> 0..255 re-scale ?! :scared:

Yes, it does.

And what happen if the source is RGB32 ? ...

RGB32 is not scaled.

foxyshadis

9th October 2006, 18:12

The problem might actually arise if YV12 received by the renderer has been already converted to 0..255 range.
YUY2, you mean. And yeah, seems to be the longest running fountain of confusion, but at least it's getting better over time.

Haali, does your renderer send out Quality messages? I'm trying to capture them (in ffdshow) but haven't been successful so far; but then again, I haven't been able to pick up vmr9's either so I may be doing it wrong somehow.

Edit: Oh, it's working in VMR9 now, but it seems none are being sent from yours.

Haali

9th October 2006, 18:46

YUY2, you mean. And yeah, seems to be the longest running fountain of confusion, but at least it's getting better over time.

Haali, does your renderer send out Quality messages? I'm trying to capture them (in ffdshow) but haven't been successful so far; but then again, I haven't been able to pick up vmr9's either so I may be doing it wrong somehow.

Edit: Oh, it's working in VMR9 now, but it seems none are being sent from yours.
The result was always much uglier with the messages enabled (e.g. ffdshow would stop decoding for half a minute under some circumstances), so I disabled them. Maybe I'll add an option to turn them on in preferences.

foxyshadis

9th October 2006, 19:43

I'm trying to fix ffdshow's QoS handling now, I thought I was going batty until I got it working with VMR9. =p Even if it's just a reg hack for now, I'd like to be able to work with it. Thanks.

Peuj

10th October 2006, 12:47

Something I don't get:

Ok Haali Renderer only supports colorspaces RGB32 and YUY2 and always does TV-scale-> PC-scale conversion.

So is this renderer only useful to watch videos on a PC ?
If I want to watch a movie on my TV I need PC-scale-> TV-scale, no ?
Usually I get a best image on my TV with WMR9 and YV12 and on my PC with WMR9 and RGB32.

For information, most of my videos are YV12, so to be able to use Haali Renderer I need to set the output colorspace with ffdshow to YUY2 or RGB32. But on my computer, set the output colorspace to YUY2 + Haali Renderer takes really too much CPU (more than RGB32 + HQ) and the video lags a lot , so I can only use RGB32 with Haali Renderer.
I don't have this problem with WRM9 + YUY2.

My config:
Number of cores 1
Number of threads 2 (max 2)
Name Intel Pentium 4
Codename Prescott
Specification Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz
Package Socket 478 mPGA (platform ID = 2h)
CPUID F.3.4
Extended CPUID F.3
Core Stepping D0
Technology 90 nm
Core Speed 3400.1 MHz (17.0 x 200.0 MHz)
Rated Bus speed 800.0 MHz
Stock frequency 3400 MHz
Instructions sets MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3

Thanks

Egh

10th October 2006, 14:10

Peuj

10th October 2006, 14:22

You hardly need Haali renderer to watch videos on TV imo. As for VMR9+YV12 vs VMR9+RGB32, you can try enabling range correction in ffdshow (either with Levels or avs filter ColorYUV(levels="TV->PC"). See what better looks on your screen.

Ok thanks I will try that but just to be sure I understand:
I have a TV-scale video, Haali Renderer will re-scale it to PC-scale and then I do a range correction to re-scale to TV-scale. :confused:

If input space is YUY2 then Haali renderer does require more CPU, it is not a bug, it's a known feature :)
:D

Seb.26

10th October 2006, 16:14

Yes, it does.
RGB32 is not scaled.
Ok, all is perfect for me about ColorSpace ... thanks a lot ! :)

PS: Have you think about creating a debug version of your render ? ... with a lot of debug trace in ASCII file ...
... I'm ok to run it on my system for helping you to understand why some users (I'm in) have black screen for more than 10s before playback start ... ;)

chros

10th October 2006, 19:54

Is there out any docs or tutorial about the colorspaces (not specs, but user-friendly guides) ?
I don't get anything at all about what you're talking about ... :)

Egh

11th October 2006, 17:58

Is there out any docs or tutorial about the colorspaces (not specs, but user-friendly guides) ?
I don't get anything at all about what you're talking about ... :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV ftw:P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model
http://www.fourcc.org/fccyvrgb.php

concerning the signal used for digital television see
http://www.stewe.org/itu-recs/bt601.pdf#search=%22ITU-R%20BT.601-5%22

:search:

Eretria-chan

13th October 2006, 15:24

Whenever I use Haali's Renderer and Reclock DirectShow filter to play Sonic X sources (other sources seem to work fine with both filters enabled for playback), I get "floating point overflow" message. There appears to be a conflict between these on this source...
If I don't use Reclock, it works fine (only Haali). If I only use Reclock (not Haali), it works fine.
Aside from that, it also seems that Haali's rendered seems to get the aspect ratio all wrong.

But hey, aside from that, Haali is pretty much the only video renderer that works good on Vista!

This is using Zoom Player, btw.

Haali

13th October 2006, 19:17

Does anyone have a sample with wrong AR? All my files play with correct AR.

Eretria-chan

14th October 2006, 23:58

A little update...
The wrong aspect ratio was gotten if used with "Source." However, if I do select "Derived," it's fine.
But the rendered is also somewhat unstable. If paused for too long, it won't resume (it won't display the video but the audio will continue). When trying to play a new file (when playing a file), the player stops reponding.
Oh and when using the rendered it seems to like to "unhide" the mouse pointer. It tends to disappear whem Zoom Player (I take it is the player?) hides it, but then it appears right again.

All of this doesn't happen with other renderers.
Again, Zoom Player & Vista RC1 (x64).

cc979

17th October 2006, 22:38

just found weird bug, using ffdshow_rev404_20061017_clsid.exe and mplayerc.rev611-2.2kxp.7z

this mov/svq3 plays fine using the internal mp4/mov parser on mpc but plays very jumpy with haali splitter 07/07/2006

http://files.filefront.com/Ridge+Racer+7+TGS+06+Trailer/;6029161;/fileinfo.html

foxyshadis

18th October 2006, 00:20

SVQ3 doesn't work with haali's splitter, it's a known issue. The splitter doesn't include some data structure, haruhiko_yamagata knows a lot more about it and could provide details.

cc979

18th October 2006, 21:09

SVQ3 doesn't work with haali's splitter, it's a known issue. The splitter doesn't include some data structure, haruhiko_yamagata knows a lot more about it and could provide details.

it must be some time stamp thing or something as there was no corruption or crash just weird jumpy video

cheers anyway

Haali

18th October 2006, 22:05

SVQ3 doesn't work with haali's splitter, it's a known issue. The splitter doesn't include some data structure, haruhiko_yamagata knows a lot more about it and could provide details.
Do you have a sample that doesn't work? The ones in my collection play fine.

Seb.26

19th October 2006, 09:02

Does anyone have a sample with wrong AR? All my files play with correct AR.
I will prepare one for you this evening after job ...
... It will ok for tomorrow ... ;)

[Edit 19/10/06] I've upload a small file ( 3.4MB ) ... maybe someone can test it ...

http://membres.lycos.fr/sebfr26/Haali/Sample.mkv
( Universal intro )

Else, it's a 720*432 video with a display size of 1024*432 ( it's an anamorphic PAL DVD with top/bottom crop ... )

In any case, I will test it this evening at home ... an report if sample work or not with Haali's render ...
( I have test it with MPC and VMR9 : it's ok ... )

[Edit 20/10/06] I've done some tests yesterday, and I can't reproduce the Aspect Ratio bug ...
... I will try more this WE ... maybe the bug wasn't in the render ... I don't understand ...

[Edit 24/10/2006] Sometimes, Halli's render lost the aspect ratio, this happen with MPEG2 (DVD) by trying a jump ...

cc979

19th October 2006, 11:34

Do you have a sample that doesn't work? The ones in my collection play fine.

this one here
http://files.filefront.com/Ridge+Racer+7+TGS+06+Trailer/;6029161;/fileinfo.html

does not play correctly

ChronoReverse

23rd October 2006, 01:25

This is probably the wrong place to ask but I'll try anyways.

What would cause opening files while one is already open to be slow? For example, if I open video1.mkv in Zoomplayer or MPC, then open video2.mkv, it invariably takes a long to for it to come up and it may even crash. This seems to only occur with MKV and not MP4 (I don't use Haali for AVI).

Seb.26

23rd October 2006, 09:33

This is probably the wrong place to ask but I'll try anyways.
What would cause opening files while one is already open to be slow? For example, if I open video1.mkv in Zoomplayer or MPC, then open video2.mkv, it invariably takes a long to for it to come up and it may even crash. This seems to only occur with MKV and not MP4 (I don't use Haali for AVI).
You are speaking about Haali demuxer ( Matroska splitter ) or about Haali's render ?!
( this post is for render :D )

chros

23rd October 2006, 20:10

Do you have a sample that doesn't work? The ones in my collection play fine.
Or this one (and a tons of one :) ): alien-resurrection-trailer-640.mov (http://www.movie-list.net/classics/alien-resurrection-trailer-640.mov)

Seb.26

24th October 2006, 10:10

What can be done to disable tearing with Haali's render ? ... I use :
> MPC
>> DScaler( out=YV12 )
>>> FDShow( just out=RGB32-HQ )
>>>> Reclock
>>>>> Haali's render

And there is a lot of tearing, just on the middle of the screen :scared:

... a little tech question : how could I have tearing since D3D vSync is forced in NVidia properties ?! ... The render don't use D3D ?! ...

In my mind, the render take a frame from directshow, copy it in GPU ram as a texture or something like that ... draw the texture on backbuffer with the resize shaders, swap buffer on vsync ...etc...

Another point : the buffer is used to store "input frames" ( ie: 640*480 ) or "output frames" ( ie: 1280*720 ) ...

Is it possible to have a look on source code ? :D

;)

KoD

27th October 2006, 21:19

This is what I do:
- in MPC "Lock back-buffer before presenting" is enabled
- in Haali's video renderer filter options "Soft Vsync" is disabled.

ExtraEye

29th October 2006, 19:15

Sorry for asking something that is probably answered here somehow... Though I did look through the pages of this thread and couldn't completely understand.

I use Zoom player along with ffdshow usually (outputting to RGB32 -HQ conversion) and the renderer VMR9 to view videos on a television screen (wide screen). My sources are mainly fansubs (which are mainly encoded in xvid or h264). My graphics card is Geforce 6600GT.
I tried using Halli's renderer and it worked nicely (I changed the settings to max sharpness and it was nice ^^) but it took long to load videos - normally it's done instantly and now it took about 10 seconds.

I don't really understand much about the way renderers work and people here talked about ranges and shaders and I lost track ^^

So in short I want to know if I should use the renderer or stick to VMR9 (since I pretty much always view videos on my TV).
If i switch to Halli's renderer is there a way to make it load faster?

Seb.26

30th October 2006, 10:03

This is what I do:
- in MPC "Lock back-buffer before presenting" is enabled
- in Haali's video renderer filter options "Soft Vsync" is disabled.
Thanks, I thing I have this too, but I will check ...

KoD

31st October 2006, 18:11

ExtraEye, you can't make the renderer load faster. Though, to me it looks that the last version does load faster than the previous one, but it might just be me getting accustomed. ^^

I did not know that you could chose to use Haali's renderer in ZoomPlayer. Maybe with a custom graph... But I haven't used ZoomPlayer for quite some time, things might have changed. If you are selecting VMR9 in ZoomPlayer's output options, then it uses the VMR9 Renderer and not Haali's renderer.

Seb.26, it won't cure the tearing completely, but it will be much better.

ExtraEye

31st October 2006, 18:29

It's pretty simple actually. all toy have to do is choose "custom" in filter control>audio/video devices and select from the list "Haali Video Renderer".
I'm absolutely sure it's using the halli renderer since it showed up instead of VMR9 in the filter properties page - and besides - the change was felt ^^
didn't really get an answer for what i asked but about the speed - does this mean in future versions this problem will be fixed/improved?

Haali

31st October 2006, 21:24

didn't really get an answer for what i asked but about the speed - does this mean in future versions this problem will be fixed/improved?
If you mean a startup delay around ~10s, then I've been unable to reproduce it on my machines so far.

ExtraEye

31st October 2006, 21:26

Yes that's what I meant.
Thanks for the reply anyhow.

kurt

31st October 2006, 21:38

no 10s starting problems here; neither with nvidia gf 6800 nor with ati radeon 1400...

anonymez

31st October 2006, 22:04

new versions still have the mpeg2 1440x1088 bug (just immediately closes the player without error message now), as well as the seeking issue in DVDs

Haali

1st November 2006, 21:10

new versions still have the mpeg2 1440x1088 bug (just immediately closes the player without error message now), as well as the seeking issue in DVDs
Do you have a sample to repoduce that?

LoRd_MuldeR

1st November 2006, 22:11

If you mean a startup delay around ~10s, then I've been unable to reproduce it on my machines so far.

And I still have this problem on my machine with MatroskaSplitter20061029.exe :(

Specs:
Radeon 9800 Pro
latest official Catalyst drivers
DirectX 9.0c (October 2006)
WinXP SP-2
AthlonXP 2800+
1024 MB of RAM

If it cannot be fixed, could it be possible to make MPC initilalize the Haali Renderer only one time and not for each video again?

anonymez

1st November 2006, 23:38

Do you have a sample to repoduce that?

4mb sample here (http://www.sendspace.com/file/sw93fm), and more info about it here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=884982#post884982)

more info on the dvd bug here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=855573#post855573)

MacAddict

2nd November 2006, 01:00

And I still have this problem on my machine with MatroskaSplitter20061029.exe :(

Specs:
Radeon 9800 Pro
latest official Catalyst drivers
DirectX 9.0c (October 2006)
WinXP SP-2
AthlonXP 2800+
1024 MB of RAM

If it cannot be fixed, could it be possible to make MPC initilalize the Haali Renderer only one time and not for each video again?

Isn't this delay the video being loaded into the RAM buffer though? Maybe I'm wrong here.

Seb.26

2nd November 2006, 12:39

Isn't this delay the video being loaded into the RAM buffer though? Maybe I'm wrong here.
It can't be that :

Usually decoder must decode at least at speed of 25fps ... So 10s is about 250 frames ... 250 frames of 720*576 ( ie: PAL ) RGB32 ... this is about 400MB ... So too much for just the buffering time ...

Of course, just IMHO ... :p

Have fun !

Thanks a lot Haali ... Your render is really in the best road ! :)

Seb

ExtraEye

2nd November 2006, 12:42

what do the "buffers" option and "sharpness"(i know it sharpens but how?) in the renderer do?

Seb.26

2nd November 2006, 13:37

what do the "buffers" option and "sharpness"(i know it sharpens but how?) in the renderer do?
4 Me :
> sharpeness : the power of the sharp done during resize (Bicubic)
> buffer : the amount of GC RAM that the render try to alocate

NB: what happen when user try to use 256MB on a 128MB GC ???

Seb.26

2nd November 2006, 13:45

If you mean a startup delay around ~10s, then I've been unable to reproduce it on my machines so far.

Maybe you can add some "debug tracking data" in the render ... ie : write (in txt file) data about subroutines calls, in timestamp, out timestamps ...etc...
To know what take so long ...

I'm OK to run it on my computer ...
... of course, I have the delay ... ;)

My configuration :
Hard = Win XP SP2 + A64 3200+ @2.4GHz + 1Go RAM + 6600GT PCIe 16x
Software = DScaler -> FFDShow -> Haali's render( video ) + Reclock( sound )

I use SPDIF output for sound ( passthrough )

:)

I'm sure all guys here will happy to help you if we can ... :)

PS: Source code are public or private ?!
( if public, can you help me to found them please ? )

BTW, thanks a lot for your hard job ! :)
Seb.

LoRd_MuldeR

2nd November 2006, 18:56

Isn't this delay the video being loaded into the RAM buffer though? Maybe I'm wrong here.

Well, if I use GraphEdit, then the delay (system freeze) happens when I add the Halli Renderer to the graph. Adding and connecting the video and all other required filters does not have delay. Once evrything is added I can start playback immediately! And I also can connect other Videos without delay, as long as I keep the Haali Renderer on the graph. So couldn't it be possible to make MPC to keep the Renderer too?

Haali

2nd November 2006, 21:24

4mb sample here (http://www.sendspace.com/file/sw93fm), and more info about it here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=884982#post884982)

The file plays fine here with gabest's mpeg2 decoder.

Warpman

7th November 2006, 16:38

If someone still has the "delay" bug in mpc,
open mpc--> view -->options-->playback--> UNcheck "Use worker thread to contruct the filter graph".

Seb.26

7th November 2006, 17:06

If someone still has the "delay" bug in mpc,
open mpc--> view -->options-->playback--> UNcheck "Use worker thread to contruct the filter graph".
I have ... and I will test this !!! :D

:goodpost:

NB: with this checked, you have delay, without you don't ? ;)

ExtraEye

7th November 2006, 17:42

If someone still has the "delay" bug in mpc,
open mpc--> view -->options-->playback--> UNcheck "Use worker thread to contruct the filter graph".
tried on mpc and still slow.
not very precise way to measure it, i guess, but i just counted the seconds and it was about 8 seconds on both.

Warpman

7th November 2006, 17:46

strange, i had the delay since the beginning but, on my pc it´s nearly gone now :)

Seb.26

7th November 2006, 18:09

Who use Reclock here ?

ExtraEye

7th November 2006, 18:10

not me

Seb.26

7th November 2006, 18:11

not me
Ok, so Reclock isn't the problem on my system ...

Maybe by posting our directshow graph, we will see where the problem is ?! :(

[Edit] I've STOP using Haali's render ... maybe next release ... ;o)

Tima

7th November 2006, 23:49

Maybe a known problem, but when opening avs files using Haali renderer, MPC refuses to seek them.
In any other rendering mode everything is OK.

And what is 'Soft V-Sync' for? It doesn't work for me, I have to use 'Lock back-buffer before presenting'. :/

chros

12th November 2006, 18:27

If someone still has the "delay" bug in mpc,
open mpc--> view -->options-->playback--> UNcheck "Use worker thread to contruct the filter graph".
It's not working here: the same 10 seconds delay remains ... :(
not very precise way to measure it, i guess, but i just counted the seconds...
Try Chameleon Clock (http://www.softshape.com/software/desktop/chamclock/features/) (a standard Windows tray clock replacement) which displays seconds, and here you can easily see the delay (it's not freeware though)

chros

22nd November 2006, 18:56

I know it's splitter specific things, but I don't want to create a new thread for it.

In MPC when I use SHIFT+arrows (left,right) or SHIFT+mouse it jumps to keyframes when I enable the built-in avi,mkv,mp4/mov splitter. When I disable these (Haali's kicks in) it doesn't work.

Is there any way to implement this, or is there something to limit this?

ajp_anton

24th November 2006, 00:49

I have a 24'' 1920x1200 TFT at 60Hz (Samsung 244T)
In Windows explorer, when I move windows horizontally, it looks like the picture is updated from bottom to top in slices of random size.

Watching movies using Haali splitter (in MPC), I get this same effect with the slices. Very annoying.
Looks perfect with everything else in both MPC (System Default, Old Renderer, Overlay Mixer, WMR7/9) and VLC.

foxyshadis

24th November 2006, 01:32

That's vsync. Try enabling the soft vsync option in the renderer properties.

ajp_anton

25th November 2006, 03:42

It's still activated (never deactivated it).
Tried without, no differance.

Zo®G

13th December 2006, 08:46

chros

13th December 2006, 10:11

I was finded solution that solves problem with 10s delay when starting MPlayer Clasic. Solution is: Uncheck Process priority above normal. I use ffdshow-rev684 and latest haali render. Sorry for my English.
Thanks !!!!
Did you mean "check" or "uncheck" ???
Because for me it's only working when I check this checkbox.

So now maybe Haali can do something about this bug ...

MacAddict

13th December 2006, 14:24

I just upgraded my graphics card last week from an FX5200 to a 7300GT. Now I have no delay at all when opening files. This is good but I can't explain why the delay is gone :-)

tymoxa

13th December 2006, 16:17

I have 7300GT. Still there is a delay.

Haali

14th December 2006, 01:12

This reminds me of one thing, when this startup delay happens, is the cpu 100% busy?

Zo®G

14th December 2006, 08:46

I mean "uncheck".
Yes i have 100% usage of CPU for 6-10 seconds when the box check.
This work good only when i start new instance of player. When i use playlist, i have delay when i go to the next file. Delay dissapear when i update ffdshow from rev641 to rev684, and rev641 was icl9, ffdshow rev684 i used now is msvc9.
And other thing, when i use YUY2 i have cpu usege when watching film about 25-28% on anamorf film 1024x448, when i use RGB32 with High quality conversion i have usage about 35-40% with no visualy differences.
My video card is GeForce 6600, i use ForceWare 94.71.
I change nothing of this when delay dissapear.

chros

15th December 2006, 06:12

I mean "uncheck".
Hhmmm, so it works at the opposite for me :)
So it's still mysterious bug :)
(I can't try now the 100% CPU usage, I'm not at that pc.)

Gnerma

15th December 2006, 07:00

I'm a Zoom Player user and I don't have the long load problem. Unless I disable one core of my Opteron 165 through boot.ini. I've also seen it on other single core systems.

Haali

15th December 2006, 08:08

I'm a Zoom Player user and I don't have the long load problem. Unless I disable one core of my Opteron 165 through boot.ini. I've also seen it on other single core systems.
Thanks for the tip. Finally I was able to reproduce the bug and fixed it.
It caused the rendering thread to spin during init, thus preventing other threads from running. On HT/dual core systems the init code continued to run on another cpu and immediately kicked it out of the spin loop.

KoD

15th December 2006, 20:05

Is there a way to grab a version of the renderer with the fix ?

MacAddict

16th December 2006, 00:11

Sweet, great job tracking it down :-)

LoRd_MuldeR

16th December 2006, 17:56

Is there a way to grab a version of the renderer with the fix ?

That's what I like to know too :)

chros

17th December 2006, 22:20

Thanks for the tip. Finally I was able to reproduce the bug and fixed it.
It caused the rendering thread to spin during init, thus preventing other threads from running. On HT/dual core systems the init code continued to run on another cpu and immediately kicked it out of the spin loop.
Thanks !!!! You are very smart!
And thanks to Gnerma to specify the problem...
Waiting for the new version ... :)

foxyshadis

18th December 2006, 06:52

When you post the new build, would it be possible to include the registry-key I mentioned a bit back, to enable sending Quality messages? QoS in my dev branch works pretty well so far in VMR7/9 (9 better than 7) so far, but I'd like to test it against your renderer and be able to activate it when people install newer ffdshows once it's released.

Egh

18th December 2006, 14:58

According to some actual tests done with last secret haali media splitter build :P, the infamous delay bug has dissappeared indeed.

Time for celebrarions, eh? ^^

Not that my system was affected, but it's always nice to hear when a hard-to-trace bug in a great software is crashed :)

LoRd_MuldeR

18th December 2006, 15:06

Haali

18th December 2006, 22:19

I've made a test build, you can get it at http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/mkx.r.8.exe

LoRd_MuldeR

18th December 2006, 22:58

I've made a test build, you can get it at http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/mkx.r.8.exe

Thanks Sir :)

LoRd_MuldeR

18th December 2006, 23:03

Sorry, but the test build doesn't work at all :(
If I set MPC to use Haali Renderer, it will freeze my system when I start playback. Had to kill mpc.exe from ProcessExplorer.

Wedgedkc

19th December 2006, 00:03

This fixed the delay for me. Thanks Haali.

I have another problem with the renderer, it's not a new issue with this version though. On some videos (http://media.divx.com/video/musicvideos/misc/videos/Mogwai_FriendoftheNight.divx) I get a small dotty pattern on some edges in the video. It goes away when I switch to fullscreen or 50/200% view. It moves around if I drag the window around. It's not visible if I take a snapshot in MPC although it is visible if I use Alt+PrintScreen. I've taken some screenshots (http://themansion.mine.nu/otto/files/dxr.zip) where you hopefully can see the artifacts. Am I the only one having this issue?

Also it seems like the framerate is reported *2 now.

(nvidia 6800le with 93.81 drivers - upgraded drivers today, made no difference)

tymoxa

19th December 2006, 07:54

Delay disappeared. Thanks.
(GeForce 7300gt, Forceware 84.21)

ExtraEye

19th December 2006, 10:34

Sorry, but the test build doesn't work at all :(
If I set MPC to use Haali Renderer, it will freeze my system when I start playback. Had to kill mpc.exe from ProcessExplorer.

about the same thing for me. except after i restarted my pc it didn't get stuck anymore but still didn't play

Wedgedkc

19th December 2006, 13:00

On some videos (http://media.divx.com/video/musicvideos/misc/videos/Mogwai_FriendoftheNight.divx) I get a small dotty pattern on some edges in the video.

I guess this might be happening when the height is not mod something. If I resize the player a couple of pixels, the artifacts go away.

KoD

19th December 2006, 20:08

LoRd_MuldeR

20th December 2006, 20:44

P4 2.4 Ghz, HT capable but not enabled because the motherboard does not support this feature, ATi Radeon 9700 Pro as video card

If the output colorspace is not YUY2, MPC hangs upon opening the file. (well, there is harddisk noise but nothing is shown on screen)

It also hangs if I enable the "Show timestamps" option.

When it works (using YUY2 output colospace and not messing with any option), it does start instantaneously, no hang-ups anymore.

Thanks for information :D

I had forced software YUY2 -> RGB conversion in ffdshow. That made Haali Rendere completely freeze my System on playback in MPC, so I had to kill MPC.exe from ProcessExplorer. Now I have allowed YUY2 output in ffdshow settings and it works perfect! The "15 seconds freeze" bug FINALLY is solved !!! Nevertheless the RGB bug is a new one...

Haali

20th December 2006, 22:21

RGB problem is due to some unfinished work I'm doing. That's why I didn't want to release a new version at first.

LoRd_MuldeR

20th December 2006, 22:22

RGB problem is due to some unfinished work I'm doing. That's why I didn't want to release a new version at first.

Okay. Thanks for your work! Can't wait for final version...
BTW: Could it be possible to built-in Haali Renderer into MPlayer one day instead of DShow renderer only ???

JarrettH

22nd December 2006, 22:29

Why does setting RGB32 + high quality in ffdshow look AMAZING? :confused: Far far better than forcing YV12

Haali

23rd December 2006, 00:24

Because my renderer doesn't support YV12 input at all, so you are getting a system default renderer instead.

anonymez

23rd December 2006, 07:08

is anybody able to get the renderer working in wmp? (one of those unfortunate situations where a decent player is not an option)

KoD

23rd December 2006, 10:42

WMP does not give the user the possibility to select what renderer it wishes to use.

anonymez

23rd December 2006, 11:00

exactly. tried increasing the renderer's merit-- now the default with graphedit/directshow, still nothing with wmp however

LoRd_MuldeR

23rd December 2006, 11:55

exactly. tried increasing the renderer's merit-- now the default with graphedit/directshow, still nothing with wmp however

I guess WMP forces it's own renderer to be used.
There is not much we can do about that, excpet hacking the WMP code :rolleyes:

MPC is one small EXE file. In which case you can install Haali Renderer but not MPC ?

KoD

23rd December 2006, 11:57

WMP uses VMR7.

anonymez

23rd December 2006, 12:01

MPC is one small EXE files. In which case you can install Haali Renderer but not MPC ?

not a permission issue, just that a gadget for vista's sidebar uses wmp and what looks like nearest neighbour resizing.

as i feared, not much can be done but it was worth a shot. guess i'll have to resize via ffdshow

MatMaul

30th December 2006, 19:28

This renderer is very good, I love the cache of frames in the GPU RAM, this seems to help decode HD H264 content in real time because the cache prevents peak bitrate by calculating frame in advance.

But I actually have a lot of tearing with my video card :(
I haven't tearing with vmr9 renderless renderer.

X700 mobility with catalyst 6.12

with Soft Vsync it's worse : the video is jerked.
"Lock backbuffer before presenting" doesn't solve my problem too.

Gnerma

30th December 2006, 19:37

Thanks for the update Haali. This is the bestest renderer ever (imagine the most annoying person you know saying that to get the full effect).

Anyway, I'm experience jerky pans with the new version & soft Vsync enabled as well. Turning it off solves it but of course introduces some tearing.

I'm running an X1900XT 256mb with Cat 6.11.

KoD

30th December 2006, 19:58

I don't know if others have experienced this, but personally I get MPC crashing when trying to use RGB32 with the new renderer version.

Gnerma, when playing a file, open taskmanager, go to the Performance tab, then from the menu select View -> Show Kernel Times. How is the red graph compared to the green one ? About the same size or much much smaller ? Also, what type of CPU do you have ?

anonymez

30th December 2006, 21:05

great update haali :)

is anyone able to play a DVD or a DVD folder in MPC with the renderer? always crashes here

JarrettH

30th December 2006, 21:15

Why does setting RGB32 + high quality in ffdshow look AMAZING? :confused: Far far better than forcing YV12

Because my renderer doesn't support YV12 input at all, so you are getting a system default renderer instead.

Yeah, I'm not using Haali at the moment. It sure does fix 0-255 range with RGB32...everything looks as it should! :cool:

What is the reason people use Haali? I don't understand. Any visual quality improvement? If my input video isn't YUY2 what's the point in using it?
Is there a way to see the input colourspace in ffdshow? I have it outputting RGB32+high quality conversion for divx, xvid.

ViCroié

2nd January 2007, 14:00

Yeah, I'm not using Haali at the moment. It sure does fix 0-255 range with RGB32...everything looks as it should! :cool:

What is the reason people use Haali? I don't understand. Any visual quality improvement? If my input video isn't YUY2 what's the point in using it?
Is there a way to see the input colourspace in ffdshow? I have it outputting RGB32+high quality conversion for divx, xvid.

I use it because it's faster then VMR9 Renderless, and I can controle the buffer size (which uses vid memory).

If it would be possible to do a colorconversion by the GPU (ATI advertises with it) or more colorspace inputs, haali renderer would seem perfect to me. High quality resizing, speed, 0-255 range fix, video memory buffer.

Seb.26

4th January 2007, 14:51

Hey ! ... What a great news that this pre-release for Haali's (great) Render !!!
( Thanks a lot for that Mr. Haali )

Happy new year to all here ! :o)

If it would be possible to do a colorconversion by the GPU (ATI advertises with it) or more colorspace inputs, haali renderer would seem perfect to me. High quality resizing, speed, 0-255 range fix, video memory buffer.
Try using FFDShow as a YV12->RGB32 filter with level conversion ... Haali's render accept RGB32 input and don't adapt level with it ...

Perfect for managing BTB & WTW with FFDShow's level filter ... ;)

Peuj

5th January 2007, 17:45

Hi,

I use MPC rev611-3.2, ffdshow_rev731_20061230_clsid.exe and the latest official Haali Renderer and output set to RGB32.

When I try to play the wmv file from this link http://www.jeuxvideo.fr/telecharger-video-25-gameplay-hd-1080p-39401.html

I have a black screen with the Haali Renderer but not with Overlay, VMR7/9.

Thanks

ExtraEye

5th January 2007, 18:04

Peuj

5th January 2007, 18:12

...I think it just doesn't support wmv

humm not exactly because I don't have this problem with some other wmv files.

a working wmv:

Format : Windows Media
File size : 34.6 MiB
PlayTime : 4mn 14s
Bit rate : 1142 Kbps
VBR Peak : 1462117
Buffer Average : 39691

Video #0
Codec : WMV3
Codec/Info : Windows Media Video 9
Bit rate : 991 Kbps
Width : 480 pixels
Height : 270 pixels
Aspect ratio : 16/9

Audio #0
Codec : WMA2
Codec/Info : Windows Media Audio 2
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48 KHz

The not working wmv:

Format : Windows Media
File size : 117 MiB
PlayTime : 1mn 57s
Bit rate : 8388 Kbps
Performer : Digital Rapids

Video #0
Codec : WMV3
Codec/Info : Windows Media Video 9
Bit rate : 8029 Kbps
Width : 1920 pixels
Height : 1080 pixels
Aspect ratio : 16/9

Audio #0
Codec : WMA3
Codec/Info : Windows Media Audio 3
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 48 KHz

Scoty

5th January 2007, 18:51

what is icl 9.1 ?
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=173941&package_id=199416

and how can i set Haali Renderer output to RGB32 ?

chros

6th January 2007, 09:38

High quality resizing, speed, 0-255 range fix, ...
Hhmmm ... I have tried this config, and this is much faster:
- overlay output
- ffdshow Lanczos resizing (tap=2, all others is default)

The poblem is that I want to use some sharpening filter (limitedsharpenfaster) in ffdshow, and with Haali's renderer it's impossible to playback (jerky playback)...

(Hardware: X2 4600, 1GB DDRAM, GeForce 6600GT 128MB RAM
Software: latest ffdshow from x264.nl)

ViCroié

7th January 2007, 14:18

Hhmmm ... I have tried this config, and this is much faster:
- overlay output
- ffdshow Lanczos resizing (tap=2, all others is default)

Yes its allot faster. It's not very practical though, as my video will be a fixed size. I think haali renderer will be fast in the end, I just lose too much resources due to colorconversions.
When testing Haali renderer on high def trailers, it seems that i can't play the video in any other way but overlay.

I disable "lock back-buffer" in MPC and "soft v-sync" in Haali renderer and it plays fine with a 256MB buffer (120 frames).
I don't do any color conversions either.
I get no tearing at all.
With overlay my CPU load is 50 - 60% with haali its 60 - 70%, any other configuration is unplayable.

3ngel

9th January 2007, 19:12

I have one question and a bug:

Q: Setting the sharpness value to 0 i'll not have any image alteration (that is lossless passtrough transformation) compared to the original isn't it?

B: With HuffyYUV compressed video, there is only blackscreen.

foxyshadis

10th January 2007, 01:37

How can you have a lossless passthrough if you're resizing? You have to transform it in some way, the sharpness merely controls how it's transformed.

(If your video isn't resized because it's the same as the screen size, then there's no transformation and no sharpness applied.)

aydc

10th January 2007, 07:44

Haali, thank you for the excellent image quality. It beats anything VMR has to offer. It seems to be even better than the new EVR mode in Vista.

I have a small performance problem though:

My system is Core2 Duo E6600 and GeForce 7900GS. I use DivX 6.4 and ZoomPlayer to watch movies. With VMR modes, jumping to any time in the movie is almost instantaneous. When I select Haali Renderer, I have to wait around 0.5 seconds to 1 second for the image to show when jumping.

This is not a huge problem so I keep on using HR, but if it can be solved, I'll be glad.

By the way, it'll be fantastic if you can include color controls.

Seb.26

10th January 2007, 09:45

[...]When I select Haali Renderer, I have to wait around 0.5 seconds to 1 second for the image to show when jumping.[...]
Try to reduce the size of your buffer : maybe it's the time needed to fill it ... :sly:

3ngel

10th January 2007, 11:16

@foxyshadis
Obviously i was talking about a non-resized video.

aydc

10th January 2007, 11:51

Try to reduce the size of your buffer : maybe it's the time needed to fill it ... :sly:

It didn't make a difference. None of the options do. The delay happens both in Vista an XP, but in Vista it's a bit worse.

Actually I think Haali mentioned several times that rendering and buffering are done in separate threads with rendering having higher priority, so buffering can't cause any slowdown.

Seb.26

10th January 2007, 12:05

Actually I think Haali mentioned several times that rendering and buffering are done in separate threads with rendering having higher priority, so buffering can't cause any slowdown.
Exept if Haali wait for the buffer is about full before starting playback ...

aydc

11th January 2007, 09:03

Exept if Haali wait for the buffer is about full before starting playback ...

Nope, if that was so, playback would start veeeery sloooowly. :)

It starts playing first, than starts buffering with the processing power left.

Seb.26

11th January 2007, 09:56

It starts playing first, than starts buffering with the processing power left.
Can you confirm that Haali please ?

In case of yes : a parameter to set the min buffer level before starting playback can be usefull ... starting with an empty buffer may not be a good idea in some case ... ;)

( That's why when using Haali's Render, I sometimes 'pause-wait-play' during the playback ... :D )

Haali

11th January 2007, 13:10

Yes, that's how it happens. If the decoder delivers frames faster than they can be displayed, then they are buffered. I don't think waiting at start would help, even in the best case the buffer is only a couple of seconds.

Seb.26

11th January 2007, 16:42

Yes, that's how it happens. If the decoder delivers frames faster than they can be displayed, then they are buffered.
Ok :( ...

When playback is paused, do you continue to request for frames until buffer is full ?!
( I think yes : sometimes, the playback stutter, and is smooth after "pause ... play" )

I don't think waiting at start would help, even in the best case the buffer is only a couple of seconds.
Ok ... in any case, most video start with "fast decoded" frames like logo, black frames ...ect...

PS: Do you plan to add some OSD options ?
> render FPS, decoder FPS, buffer fill % ...ect

Thanks for your work Haali !!!
I hope for new true-release of your render soon ! :D ;)

Haali

11th January 2007, 19:59

You can see buffer fill in MPC statistics bar. I abuse the Sync Offset line for that. avg: is rendered frames, dev: is freelist size.

Seb.26

12th January 2007, 11:00

You can see buffer fill in MPC statistics bar. I abuse the Sync Offset line for that. avg: is rendered frames, dev: is freelist size.
Ok, thanks for the info ... I will look this ... :)

Peuj

12th January 2007, 11:04

Henrikx

12th January 2007, 12:12

@Haali
Please look here :
http://forum.gleitz.info/showpost.php?p=315040&postcount=42
This mistake happens often, I try to explain in English !

Picture 1 : MKV Preview (with mistakes) Haali ( Shell.Ext with mistakes too, but not so much)
Picture 2 JPEG Preview (without mistakes)
Picture 3.Specialfilter Logarythmus shows the bad Part of Picture .
Picture 4. Miniature Preview MKV (without mistakes)

I had written also already to mosu , because mkvmerge .

Example: Picture City of Angels (German: Stadt der Engel)
http://www.moviemaze.de/media/wallpaper/1218/stadt-der-engel.html

Is there a solution?

3ngel

12th January 2007, 12:27

@Haali
At the moment i want to signal two bugs:

1) Black screen on HuffyYUV compressed video

2) On x264+mkv video is upside-down, can you add an "invert video" switch please?

Thanks

ExtraEye

12th January 2007, 12:36

@Haali
2) On x264+mkv video is upside-down, can you add an "invert video" switch please?
Thanks
Happens to me too. for now i use ffdshow in "output" tab to flip the picture

Haali

13th January 2007, 18:03

@All: Flipped picture can happen when using RGB due to a small bug (I fixed it already), switch to YUY2 and it should be gone.

@Peuj: The video plays fine on my machine. What codec are you using to play it?

@3ngel: Try using ffdshow for Huffy, that should fix it.

3ngel

13th January 2007, 18:24

switch to YUY2 and it should be gone
What? Are you joking? :)
I want to use RGB 'cause the quality on my video card is better when fed with RGB instead of YUY2, so i think it's a your matter to make it doing in every color space including RGB
Then use FFDShow for what? I don't understand.
In any case i don't want (and don't need) FFDshow.

Keepitsimple

13th January 2007, 22:04

Hi, excellent renderer I must say. Its the only renderer where I can switch between all my screens without mpc crashing.

Now, I have a problem with a ts file. In fullscreen I see a gray line below the movie which is around 10 pixels wide.

Egh

14th January 2007, 18:14

What? Are you joking? :)
I want to use RGB 'cause the quality on my video card is better when fed with RGB instead of YUY2, so i think it's a your matter to make it doing in every color space including RGB
Then use FFDShow for what? I don't understand.
In any case i don't want (and don't need) FFDshow.

ffdshow although, is much more contemporary than Huffman decoder you must be using. That must the the source of your problems :)

3ngel

14th January 2007, 19:35

The actual decoder i'm using (that is the ACM encoder used to encode), has no problem with both VMR9 and overlay mode, so i don't see why i have to change it (using moreover FFDShow)

Peuj

15th January 2007, 10:46

@Peuj: The video plays fine on my machine. What codec are you using to play it?

Thanks for the reply!! :)

I've tried on another machine and I cannot reproduce the problem :(

About the codec MPC says: WMVideo Decoder DMO and WMAudio Decoder DMO.

I have WMP11 installed.

And this is the list of WMVs given by GSpot:
WMV1 Windows Media Video V7 Microsoft
WMV2 Windows Media Video V8 Microsoft
WMV3 Windows Media Video V9 Microsoft
WMVA WMVA codec (supported by ffdshow)
WMVP Windows Media Video V9

The output set with ffdshow is RGB32 but I have the same issue with YUY2.

Don't know what other information could be helpful.

Thanks

Seb.26

15th January 2007, 17:47

so i don't see why i have to change it

:rolleyes: ... it's your matter to change it or not ... :p

MatMaul

15th January 2007, 18:20

Any news about jerked playback with soft vsync actived (without soft vsync I have a lot of tearing and with soft vsync the video is jerked) ?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=923596#post923596

Seb.26

16th January 2007, 11:19

Any news about jerked playback with soft vsync actived (without soft vsync I have a lot of tearing and with soft vsync the video is jerked) ?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=923596#post923596
Hum ... with all that "vsync", hard to know who do what ?

> MPC have some anti-tearing "Lock back buffer"
> Reclock have "Enable vSync correction"
> Haali's render have "soft vsync"

:o

MatMaul

16th January 2007, 12:27

Hum ... with all that "vsync", hard to know who do what ?

> MPC have some anti-tearing "Lock back buffer"
> Reclock have "Enable vSync correction"
> Haali's render have "soft vsync"

:o
I speak about haali soft vsync.
but I have also tested with "Lock back buffer"

Seb.26

16th January 2007, 14:31

Does anybody know how all this "vsync" manager works together ? :o

3ngel

16th January 2007, 16:04

it's your matter to change it or not
Oh yes in the worst case i'll change Haali Renderer :p

Other bug (in addition to Huffy and x264 UPsideDown)

BUG: When playing 1980*1080 content, the size is automatically reduced (by a ? percentage) like 1024*576, with different sizes near 1980 the size is automatically reduce randomly. In all the cases i'm not able to view contents in their original size. The problem is not present in Overlay and VRM9.

Seb.26

16th January 2007, 17:57

Oh yes in the worst case i'll change Haali Renderer :p
:D ... It's what I've done ... but I hope I will re-use Haali's render soon ! ... maybe next official release ... ;)

Haali

16th January 2007, 19:59

I've already said that a couple of times, but here it goes again: video size is reduced so the player window fits the screen. This is how I want it and I'm not going to change it. If you want parts of your video to go outside the screen and become invisible, then resize your player manually or use another renderer.

3ngel

16th January 2007, 20:19

Haali, in this case apart the fact that you at least would do provide an "alternative" to the behavour of the renderer, like an option to "auto-resize" or not, the resizing doesn't work.
I'm on a monitor 1280*1024 so on a 1920*1080 i expext 1280*720, but i get 1024*576 that is much more less than the entire available screen. Moreover on a 1280*720 video i would expect no resize, but i get a 800*470, so i say your method doesn't work very well.
In the end i say your "resize policy" can be respectable, but i think for a serious program an option to "choose" your policy (or not like me) is a minimum request. Don't you think so?

Haali

16th January 2007, 20:55

3ngel

16th January 2007, 21:30

For example, i use to have NO border around the window so in this case it would be perfectly fine for me.
Regarding tastes, well each one has his own, but the important thing is that you let each one choose what he prefers :)

EDIT: Moreover, one that choose to have the original screen size it would be for testing or other purposes too, so please let choose it :)

Egh

16th January 2007, 21:36

You'll get 1280x720 if you go fullscreen in the player. If I left it at default 1280x720, there'd be no space for the border around player window. But do you really like it when parts of player UI and video go off-screen? Of course ppl have different tastes, but this one is really surprising to me.

Why it can't use autofit to screen size like MPC does? In one of the resizing modes.

BTW, "Touch the window from inside" MPC option doesn't work for Haali renderer at all, but does nice job on VMR9 :)

aydc

25th January 2007, 09:52

Haali, when is the next version coming? It's been a month since the last one. We're getting impatient. We need nightly builds dammit. :) :)

madshi

29th January 2007, 12:13

I'm one of those people with major tearing problems. The funny thing is: Tearing doesn't seem to be as bad (or existant at all!) on my LCD monitor. But as soon as I playback the movie on my secondary DVI output (plasma) the tearing is terrible.

@Haali, just a thought: Is it possible that your rendering is synchronized to the main monitor, even if the renderer is located on the secondary monitor? My LCD is driven with 60Hz, my plasma with 25Hz. This might explain why I'm getting so much tearing on my plasma, but barely any tearing on the LCD.

No tearing at all with VMR9 on either monitor.

Keepitsimple

29th January 2007, 14:05

It would be cool if you could choose between different scalers with the new version.

KoD

29th January 2007, 15:27

There is only one scaler, a bicubic one. Nothing to choose.

Egh

29th January 2007, 23:01

There is only one scaler, a bicubic one. Nothing to choose.

Question to gurus: is it possible to implement reasonably fast spline or lanczons resizing on GPU?

Haali

29th January 2007, 23:21

They'd work fine on modern GPUs. Another question is whether they provide noticeably better quality.

Seb.26

30th January 2007, 10:20

They'd work fine on modern GPUs. Another question is whether they provide noticeably better quality.
IMO : Lanczos is better than Bicubic ( in FFDShow at least )

And what about a "limited sharpen like" with PS ?!
... and more : a 3Ddenoiser, not possible with MPC, but with 3 or 4 textures ( frame n-1, frame n, frame n+1 ... ) it can be easly made I think ...

... if you want I've wrote some smalls MPC PS filters : http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29814317

The best of the best could be to offer some frames as texture ( they are buffered in GC so ... ), and allow user to custom the PS script ( like in MPC, but more powerfull ; )

Keepitsimple

30th January 2007, 14:55

They'd work fine on modern GPUs. Another question is whether they provide noticeably better quality.
I use lanczos when I upscale in ffdshow and I feel that there is a difference. Downscaling isnt noticeable.

What kind of a gpu is necessary for hardware acc? I believe I use my cpu right now.

Antilope.CZ

31st January 2007, 19:01

This renderer is simply awesome! Great work.

But the tearing issue drives me crazy. I use MPC on secondary monitor (DualHead; LCD TV) and nothing helps. Tried HW Vsync, SW Vsync (shutters), locking back-buffer, changing refresh rate to 60Hz on both monitors. (NVIDIA card)

Also DVD mode in MPC freezes when I attempt to seek, but I can live with that.

:o

MacAddict

31st January 2007, 22:25

anonymez

1st February 2007, 03:31

new release (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/), thanks haali :)

btw, it's 2007 now ;)

NanoBot

1st February 2007, 09:07

Hi Folks und hi, Haali,

first of all many thanks for the new version of the haali splitter, which should fix the problem with wrapped PTS in transport streams. A few days before I had a stream like that, recorded with my DVB-C card, und ran into problems when I tried to convert it into a matroska file. For now, I was able to test the new version with a transport stream ( MPG2 video ) which contains a PTS rewrapp, and in worked fine. I will test it again with a TS containing h.264 video as soon as possible.

Second, a question:

The change history on haalis website from 26.10.2006 tells me:

"[Matroska] Much improved mkv2vfr utility now handles AVC video and correctly writes AVI files larger than 2GB, it is now included in the splitter package."

Unfortunately both, the older version of mkv2vfr and the one included in the newest package, for me do not handle matroska files containing a h.264 video stream > 2 GByte correctly. In my tests, the resulting avi always had a maximum size of about 2 GByte, while the video is > 6 Gbyte in real. Nevertheless, the timestamp list generated by mkv2vfr indicates that the whole matroska file has been processed. And of course I used a ntfs formatted partition for the avi.

I am asking for this function because some of my recordings from DVB, which are TS containing h.264 video, seem to have dropped or duplicated frames, making them vfr. And converting from VFR to CFR is only possible with the help of the mkv2vfr tool.

C.U. NanoBot

aydc

1st February 2007, 12:20

Haali! I love you. (in a very manly way :))

The new release is great. I used to feel seeking within avi files were much slower compared to VMR9 but it seems fast enough now. The new version seems faster and more stable. Fantastic job. ::thumbsup::

Here's a feature request: Could you add some color controls to the filter control panel? On some players, color controls work only with VMR and overlay modes so we need to control the colors within Haali Renderer. Some movies are just too dark. :)

Seb.26

1st February 2007, 12:50

new release (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/), thanks haali :)
btw, it's 2007 now ;)
Thanks to anonymez for the info ...
... BIG Thanks to Haali for this new release ( not tested yet but I'm sure it will be great ! :D )

[edit]
# Video Renderer now uses multiple passes instead of complex shaders, and works on PS 1.1 hardware. Bicubic scaling and deinterlacing are available staring with PS 1.4.

Is it faster too on just for the compatibilty ? ;)

Peuj

1st February 2007, 13:18

Thanks for the new version !!

Can somebody explain me what's the use of:
* Buffers: more you have and more the load of the video is quicker and so there are less lags?
* Frames: no idea ?
* Sharpness: I though a sharpness filter was to increase details of the image (?) but as it's a negative value does that means that it's to decrease the details ?
* Show TimeStamps: don't know timestamp :(

thanks

foxyshadis

1st February 2007, 14:36

I guess you could think of sharpness as a "smoothness", where 0 is bilinear and -1 is approximately nearest neighbor. You can find more details of the bicubic (mitchell) algorithm online if you need them.

Frames is just a maximum # of frames to buffer, if there's enough memory.

If you turn on timestamps it's obvious what it is, just a subtitle of the time (position) of each frame in seconds.

Seb.26

1st February 2007, 15:10

IMO :
* Buffers : The amount of Graphic RAM the render will use
* Frames : limit the number of frames allowed in buffer
* Sharpness : setup the resize filter
* Show TimeStamps : the "time position" of the displayed frame

Peuj

1st February 2007, 16:51

Thanks foxyshadis and Seb.26 for the details.

I think (hope) I get it.

So about Buffers and Frames if they are set to the max the playback should be better ?

About Sharpness, I've tried on some videos but if I set to 0 or -1, I see no difference. Did I miss something ? Just to understand :)

Thanks

Seb.26

1st February 2007, 17:31

About Sharpness, I've tried on some videos but if I set to 0 or -1, I see no difference. Did I miss something ? Just to understand :)
Open more your eyes ! :D :D :D

More seriously : your can better see the difference on edge and on smal details : they look "sharpen" ...

@Haali : when the resize/sharpen is done for an entering frame ?
( just before the frame is buffered or just before the frame is displayed ? )

Peuj

1st February 2007, 17:35

Open more your eyes ! :D :D :D

More seriously : your can better see the difference on edge and on smal details : they look "sharpen" ...

ok i'll try that ;)

Keepitsimple

1st February 2007, 23:26

Open more your eyes ! :D :D :D

More seriously : your can better see the difference on edge and on smal details : they look "sharpen" ...

@Haali : when the resize/sharpen is done for an entering frame ?
( just before the frame is buffered or just before the frame is displayed ? )
I tried to test this with some images. However all images that I saved came out badly distorted. Here is a link to a picture thats supposed to be Christian Bale in Equilibrium http://www.tveit.se/pontus/sharp.jpg. This happened with haali renderer but not with WMR 9 renderless. The method I used was in mpc and "File menu -> Save image".

cyberbeing

2nd February 2007, 07:36

I tried to test this with some images. However all images that I saved came out badly distorted. Here is a link to a picture thats supposed to be Christian Bale in Equilibrium http://www.tveit.se/pontus/sharp.jpg. This happened with haali renderer but not with WMR 9 renderless. The method I used was in mpc and "File menu -> Save image".

I tried the same thing with Equilibrium (1280x544) using Haali renderer and save image in mpc but I didn't have that issue.

@Haali thanks for the new build. The tearing issue I told you about (during fast motion scenes) is now completely gone and in general it seems like motion feels a lot smoother :D

Warpman

2nd February 2007, 11:35

first: http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2974/haalibugok6.th.png (http://img163.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haalibugok6.png)

second: http://xrmb2.net/img/images/635087.png

first image is rendered with haali
settings buffer:16mb frames: 40 sharpness -1

second is wmr9 renderless @bilinear -1

the source is an 640 x 480 xvid

As you can see the edges and lines in the first image look strange, this did not happen und the old build

i have a geforce 5900xt 128mb if thats important ...

Seb.26

2nd February 2007, 11:40

second is wmr9 renderless @bilinear -1
What do you mean by "Bilinear -1" ?

Try to compare same frame ... your stream is interlaced ?!

Seb.26

2nd February 2007, 11:46

WHAOOOooOOoo !!! :D :D :D

How smooth the playback is now !!! ...
... Never obtain that even with Overlay+Reclock ...

:thanks:

This render is about to become (IMO) the ultimate render !!!

NB: I use MPC with :
DScaler(YU2) -> FFDShow(resize)(RGB32) -> Haali's Render

The only "bad" points are:

> seeking freeze the video...

> rarely, some tearing can be seen ( very rarely but ... )

> "sometimes", the playback never start ?! :eek: ... ( reality is more "sometimes playback start ... lol )
... MPC's "client surface" isn't painted ... CPU are quiet, HDD too ... ?!

And the more strange is that the problem occur 2, 3 times, and ... playback start ... after closing MPC, problem for some times ... test done always on same file ( but the problem occur with all files here ) ... maybe my setup ?! ... to be continued ...

An idea ?

Seb.26

2nd February 2007, 11:48

-- Double post --

Warpman

2nd February 2007, 12:19

What do you mean by "Bilinear -1" ?

Try to compare same frame ... your stream is interlaced ?!

ahh, my bad, i meant bicubic -1 selected in mpcs renderer properties

i know its not the same frame >.> but thats kinda difficult in mpc fullscreenmode ;)
and no my stream is progressive

it appears always!, not only in 1 video... and ffshow outputs yuv2 (forgot that as well)

Seb.26

2nd February 2007, 13:11

ahh, my bad, i meant bicubic -1
Ok ... :D ... just to be sure ...

i know its not the same frame >.> but thats kinda difficult in mpc fullscreenmode ;)
Tip: Switch to fullscreen and press Ctrl+G ... :sly: ... ( I think this will work ... :D ... )

And about your "problem" ... I thing it's due to the new way used to resize ( multi pass with simple PS vs single pass with complex shader ) ... try to reduce the sharp value ( -0.75 ie ) maybe you will retrieve the same picture than older release ...

About Sharpness, I've tried on some videos but if I set to 0 or -1, I see no difference. Did I miss something ? Just to understand :)
Also, don't forget to press the "Apply" button ... :D

Seb.26

2nd February 2007, 13:13

--- Too much post from me : muxing ---

Warpman

2nd February 2007, 13:15

And about your "problem" ... I thing it's due to the new way used to resize ( multi pass with simple PS vs single pass with complex shader ) ... try to reduce the sharp value ( -0.75 ie ) maybe you will retrieve the same picture than older release ...

well -0 looks _the same_! so i guess resizing is broken on my card...

tekNerd

2nd February 2007, 13:35

well -0 looks _the same_! so i guess resizing is broken on my card...

Mine too.

Seb.26

2nd February 2007, 14:06

well -0 looks _the same_! so i guess resizing is broken on my card...
Mine too.

Sound strange ... since shader level is "lower" ( PS1.1 now vs PS2.0 with older release )

Video Renderer now uses multiple passes instead of complex shaders, and works on PS 1.1 hardware. Bicubic scaling and deinterlacing are available staring with PS 1.4.

I'm sure it's working @ home for me ... what CG have you ?!
( NB: but I think the setup isn't real time ... press APPLY to see new render ... )

Tips : to see the change, you can enable OSD in FFDShow : 0 to -1 change can easly be seen on font ...

LoRd_MuldeR

2nd February 2007, 14:48

aydc

6th February 2007, 09:10

> seeking freeze the video...

I have that problem as well. While every new version seems to seek faster, seeking performance is still well below that of VMR modes.

Some people watch the movie from start to finish in one go. For such people, seeking isn't important. For people like me who jump back and forth all the time, do slow motion, fast forward, jump back again, jump forward again etc. etc., seeking performance is important. On high resolution divx movies with ZoomPlayer, Haali takes around 1,5 seconds to show the picture when seeking. That's on a Core2 Duo system. In comparison, VMR9 takes 0,3-0,4 seconds.

I'm nitpicking here though, it's a fantastic renderer. Just a bit more speed wouldn't hurt though. :)

Seb.26

6th February 2007, 09:51

I have that problem as well. While every new version seems to seek faster, seeking performance is still well below that of VMR modes.
[...]
That's on a Core2 Duo system. In comparison, VMR9 takes 0,3-0,4 seconds.
Hum ... not like me ... if the only thing I have to do is wait 3s, I will happy ... for me, the problem is more that I have to kill MPC and relaunch it ...

But (I don't know why) sometimes, I haven't any problem ... and sometimes, the render don't want to work ... :confused:

KoD

6th February 2007, 11:56

Seb.26 - are you using the tryouts ffdshow ? What happens if you disable queueing in it ?

Seb.26

6th February 2007, 12:43

Seb.26 - are you using the tryouts ffdshow ? What happens if you disable queueing in it ?
Yes ! ( don't remember exactly what version, but a 2007 one for sure )

Hum ... queue ?! ... for sure I use this (great) feature with VMR9, but don't remember if I have disabled it or not ...

What is better ? ( enable queue or not ? ) ... I think FFDShow's queue isn't really usefull due to the buffer inside the render ... do you think the problem can be from queue ?!

I must say that H'sgR ( Haali's great Render ;) ) almost work now, maybe I have disabled queue ... I will control this ... need to test it more, but it work ...
( I use it in my HTPC ... )

The main problem ( 4 me ) is the tearing in the bottom of the screen ...
... I can't undestand why there is some tearing ... I haven't any tearing in games ( when vsync is ON ) ...
... so there is why in Haali's render ? ( the render thread don't wait vsync before swap front buffer & back buffer ?! )

Anyway, I will test it more ... by watching a film tonight !!!

Haali

7th February 2007, 02:07

The renderer uses standard directx Present() calls, all vsync stuff is handled internally by directx, unless you enable soft vsync that is not recommended anymore.

sillKotscha

7th February 2007, 03:49

more speed wouldn't hurt though. :)

in MPC disable: "Lock back-buffer before presenting"...

futurex

7th February 2007, 06:25

Hi,

I just installed and tried the renderer and can use it with MPC, but on the homepage it says deinterlacing is available. Where? MPC's shaders do not work

Haali

7th February 2007, 06:45

Deinterlacing is activated automatically when the video decoder says so (e.g. "DirectShow deinterlacing" in coreavc).

futurex

7th February 2007, 07:09

Seb.26

7th February 2007, 10:46

The renderer uses standard directx Present() calls, all vsync stuff is handled internally by directx, unless you enable soft vsync that is not recommended anymore.
OK, thanks ... so I will force vsync in directx setup, disable "soft vsync" and "lock back buffer" in MPC ...

Anyway, your render have impress a lot of people on french HTPC forum, it's a fantastic render !!! :) ... every day more and more people try it ... and keep it !

So thanks a lot for your hard work ... and continue like that :D :p
... And it's true Haali : we love you !!! ;)

Peuj

7th February 2007, 11:18

Hi,

Something "strange" (at least for me) with Haali renderer:

I'm watching this video:
http://hannibalrisingexclusive.com/quicktime/hannibalrising_origin-of-evil_320x240.mov

Format : QuickTime
Format/Info : Quictime movie
Format/Family : MPEG-4
File size : 11.1 MiB
PlayTime : 5mn 21s
Bit rate : 290 Kbps
StreamSize : 138 KiB
Encoded date : UTC 2007-01-27 08:20:08
Tagged date : UTC 2007-01-26 23:20:17
Writing application : Sorenson Squeeze 4.5

Video #0
Codec : H.264
Codec/Info : H.264 (3GPP)
PlayTime : 5mn 21s
Bit rate : 223 Kbps
Width : 320 pixels
Height : 240 pixels
Aspect ratio : 4/3
Frame rate : 30.000 fps
Minimum frame rate : 30.000 fps
Maximum frame rate : 31.579 fps
StreamSize : 8.54 MiB
Encoded date : UTC 2007-01-25 19:20:11
Tagged date : UTC 2007-01-26 23:20:18

Audio #0
Codec : AAC
Codec/Family : AAC
PlayTime : 5mn 21s
Bit rate : 64 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Resolution : 16 bits
StreamSize : 2.45 MiB
Encoded date : UTC 2007-01-25 19:20:11
Tagged date : UTC 2007-01-26 23:20:17

When I use Haali Renderless I get this image:
Setting with Haali: buffers (256), frames (256), sharpness(0) or sharpness(-1).
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2909/haalior1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

When I use VMR9 Renderless I get this image:
Setting with VMR9 renderless: Render 3D + Bilinear PS 2.0
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9794/vmr9renderlessem8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I'm using the latest MPC (mplayerc.rev611-3.2) from celtic_druid and ffdshow 885. Output with ffdshow set to RGB32. And no filters enable with ffdshow.

I 've tried with the sharpness set to 0 or -1 without any difference. And before Seb.26 asks yes I have press the Apply button, close MPC and then played the video. ;)

So in case nobody notice, my "problem" is that with Halli I have pixels, the image is less smooth than with VMR9.
I though something could be done by playing with the sharpness but it seems that not? Is there something wrong with the sharpness or is this the normal image with Haali and nothing can be done?

Thanks

KoD

7th February 2007, 11:50

I've noticed the quality of the resizer is not as good as the previous versions as well. I believe Haali changed the shaders so they would run faster at the expense of quality on some hardware (maybe because of some graphic card shader units limitations). You're not the only one to notice jaggies. :(

foxyshadis

7th February 2007, 12:10

Thankyou Haali :D

But not sure i understand, so if I am using MPC's built in MPEG-2 codec, how would i tell it to use your renderer's deinterlacer instead of its own?

Would it be faster since it uses shaders and thus my video card?

You could try ffdshow's MPEG-2 decoder, which is now supposed to support interlaced signalling (and thus hardware deinterlacing). Not sure if it's via libavcodec, libmpeg2, or even if the mpeg-2 ones do at all (but absolutely sure the mpeg-4 decoders do, so no reason it shouldn't).

Hi,

Something "strange" (at least for me) with Haali renderer:

What graphics card do you have? And what driver version?

Peuj

7th February 2007, 12:13

What graphics card do you have? And what driver version?

Not a good one at my office :-) it's a GeForce FX5200 and the latest driver 93.71.

sillKotscha

7th February 2007, 12:22

@Peuj

which decoder you are using?? ... if you use coreavc for example change it to directshow deinterlacing and see if that helps...

Peuj

7th February 2007, 12:35

@Peuj

which decoder you are using?? ... if you use coreavc for example change it to directshow deinterlacing and see if that helps...

I would like to try what you say but I'm only using ffdshow and MPC. Can I change to directshow deinterlacing anyway? if yes how?

thanks

Seb.26

8th February 2007, 13:20

Just to correct something I've say in previous posts : the setup of the sharpeness is applied in real time by the render, I have test this point yesterday ...

Sorry for the bad information from me ... :o

To obtain the smoothest playback on my machine and no more tearing, following points are important :
- disable "queue" in ffdshow
- Enable "vsync controled by software" in you drivers
- disable "soft vsync" in the render
- disable "lock back lock" in MPC

(thanks Haali for your help, all is perfect now !!!)

Another thing : Fast forward is ... WAAOOHHH ...
( far better than vista IMO !!! :D )

ExtraEye

8th February 2007, 13:47

Where do I set Vsync on the driver? (I have nvidia).

Seb.26

8th February 2007, 14:08

Where do I set Vsync on the driver? (I have nvidia).
From the main menu of the new control panel ( you have 3 parts : display, game, video ), go in the game/directx part ( icon is a "space ship" ), and go in advanced or something with a lots of parameters in a listbox ...

But my memory maybe wrong ... :o

Haali

8th February 2007, 20:14

You don't really need to force vsync, just make sure it's not set to force off. Application-controlled is a better setting I think.

Warpman

8th February 2007, 23:23

You don't really need to force vsync, just make sure it's not set to force off. Application-controlled is a better setting I think.
any news on this issue ?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=947998#post947998

:thanks:

ExtraEye

8th February 2007, 23:24

I tried setting the Vsync option off in the renderer and it made the video go off sync. :(

Setting the driver to force Vsync or not forcing it didn;t make a difference.

tekNerd

9th February 2007, 00:40

I tried setting the Vsync option off in the renderer and it made the video go off sync. :(

Setting the driver to force Vsync or not forcing it didn;t make a difference.

I concur.

Seb.26

9th February 2007, 09:46

Haali's render by default try to use vsync, so not need to force vsync ON, but at least allow application control ... in another words : set what you want expected "force OFF" ... ;)

Peuj

9th February 2007, 11:47

Haali's render by default try to use vsync, so not need to force vsync ON, but at least allow application control ... in another words : set what you want expect "force OFF" ... ;)

I think you mean: excepted "force OFF" ;)

I'm not sure it will change anything to disable "queue" in ffdshow because I think it's not supported with Haali renderer.

Anyway I've tried everything but the sharpness still doesn't work for me.

Seb.26

9th February 2007, 11:58

I think you mean: excepted "force OFF" ;)
Probably ... :o ... sorry for my (too) bad English ... :o

I'm not sure it will change anything to disable "queue" in ffdshow because I think it's not supported with Haali renderer.
I don't know ... all I do is to repeat and group all Haali's directives in single post :D

Anyway I've tried everything but the sharpness still doesn't work for me.
Oh ... you are sure that a resize is needed ? ;)

Peuj

9th February 2007, 14:08

Probably ... :o ... sorry for my (too) bad English ... :o

no problems as I'm french my english is not good too. :-)

Oh ... you are sure that a resize is needed ? ;)

I don't understand what you mean? :confused:

There is a resize automatically done by Haali renderer I think because the original size of the video is 320x240 and when I open it in MPC the size of the video is around 640x480.

Seb.26

9th February 2007, 14:14

Sans deconner ?!!! :D ...
( Tu devrais venir faire un tour sur http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ un de ces jours ... )
... mdr ...

( Sorry for this quick French aside :o )

I don't understand what you mean?
I mean that the sharpen is done during the resizing, so : no resizing, no sharpening ... but if your video is 320*200, your desktop resolution must be larger ... so the resize is needed (if you wach it in full screen) ... so sharpenning must be visible (if it work) ...

the problem is elsewhere ...

... no more idea for me ... :(

Peuj

9th February 2007, 15:00

Sans deconner ?!!! :D ...
( Tu devrais venir faire un tour sur http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ un de ces jours ... )
... mdr ...

( Sorry for this quick French aside :o )

I mean that the sharpen is done during the resizing, so : no resizing, no sharpening ... but if your video is 320*200, your desktop resolution must be larger ... so the resize is needed (if you wach it in full screen) ... so sharpenning must be visible (if it work) ...

the problem is elsewhere ...

... no more idea for me ... :(

Ok I see but as I said the video is automatically resized by the Haali render so sharpening should work.
I've tried in fullscreen to be sure and the sharpening didn't work too.

Is there some limitation because of my graphic cards (GeForce FX5200 and the latest driver 93.71)?

Haali, do you have any ideas?

pssst : j'vais faire un tour sur http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/ dès que je peux ;)

Seb.26

9th February 2007, 15:29

Is there some limitation because of my graphic cards (GeForce FX5200 and the latest driver 93.71)?
No, I think your chipset can work with Pixel Shaders 2.0 ... :confused:

Peuj

9th February 2007, 17:28

No, I think your chipset can work with Pixel Shaders 2.0 ... :confused:

Thanks for help.

It seems I have to wait for Haali's ideas/comments.

3ngel

10th February 2007, 17:54

@Haali
Downloaded the latest version.

1) Your "policy resizing" doesn't work. On a 1600*1200 monitor with a 1920 input i get 1024*xxxx instead of ~1600
2) On a huffyyuv input there is black screen.

Haali

10th February 2007, 20:21

Video size is halved until it fits the screen or doubled until it is at least 400x300. This way 50% or 200% usually gives you original size.

3ngel

10th February 2007, 21:02

But, excuse me. At this point i don't get the utility of your autoresizing at all. Moreover it doesn't permit me to restore to original size with "Zoom 100%" menu item in MPC.
In the past i thought it could have some utility with the fact that you presumibly would use all the available screen size, but in this case what is the sense of it all? :confused: Sincerely with all my efforts i don't get it.

Sound strange to me that a good software like yours lost itself in this absurd matters...
So i remember you things, i think you would to fix

1) Add a switch to choose or not the "Autoresize policy"
2) Correct the black screen huffyyouv input

;)

Haali

10th February 2007, 21:49

The point of this feature is to get the video window fully visible when the file is initially opened. Sorry, but I _never_ watch videos with half of the video off-screen and invisible or when it's smaller than a postage stamp. If you prefer it that way, then you can always use VMR or other stock renderers. If for some obscure reason I need the original size, I simply use Alt-1 or Alt-3 in mpc, and if I'm going to seriously watch it, I use Alt-Enter.

3ngel

10th February 2007, 21:58

I'm not saying it as a question of "do it because i like so", and i wasn't arguing with you if i would not consider your render deserving of discussion (in order to improve it).
What i was asking from the beginning, was a simple switch to choose it or not. This switch hurts your viewing principles so much?

EDIT: Moreover i don't watch videos offscreen. I would like just to watch them occupyng as much screen as possible (and not as postage stamp as YOUR behaviour make it appear on my monitor) or at original size (for my testing purposes and for other matters)

foxyshadis

11th February 2007, 08:36

Adding switches is usually coincident with adding bugs and headaches, though, as well as UI clutter. So I can understand the reticence when it hasn't become a big issue.

Keepitsimple

11th February 2007, 11:41

Whats the point of vsync when you dont have hertz equal to a multiple of the fps of the movie? I never use vsync.

KoD

11th February 2007, 12:15

Whats the point of vsync when you dont have hertz equal to a multiple of the fps of the movie? I never use vsync.

To prevent tearing. This way, you can be sure you're not rendering on the screen a part of one frame and the rest from the next frame (the difference in position or color of the objects in those frames is what's percieved as tearing).

kurt

11th February 2007, 12:33

I got tearing as well (geforce 6800, ati radeon 1400): maybe try this clip for yourself: http://rapidshare.com/files/15969975/tearing.avi (15 mb, 1080p)

forcing vsync and disabling soft vsync doesn't help...

Seb.26

12th February 2007, 14:07

[Edit]
Deeper tests done ...
> There isn't any problem with color mapping with Haali's render when using RGB32 input.

3ngel

12th February 2007, 14:28

Apart from the fact that i'm waiting the HuffyYUY bug to be fixed :), i want to signal another bug.
On MPEG2 decoder by MPC, setting the deinterlacing to BOB, A/V gets desynched. Setting it to AUTO all is right. For sure it's not a CPU problem usage.
It seems like the renderer has some problem with the duplicated amount of data (BOB method duplicates the frame rate).

tekNerd

14th February 2007, 11:48

A new version is in, but I can't make it run in MPC. (I can't chose it as the directshow renderer).
I am a noob at this stuff, but until now I didn't need any help to do that. So, am I missing something here?

anonymez

14th February 2007, 12:47

same here, cannot select the renderer in MPC with this new version

Seb.26

14th February 2007, 12:59

Features ideas :
Could it be possible to add some important informations via OSD ?
> DirectX refresh rate
> Buffer level ( with level and max )

NB: in actual render, what is the "???????????????????????" in OSD ?

And why about adding a white vertical bar that scroll along the screen ? ( like in reclock ... this help a lot to detect smooth/un-smooth playback )

Thanks ;)
Seb

MatMaul

14th February 2007, 12:59

I haven't this problem with the last MPC build of celtic_druid.

tekNerd

14th February 2007, 13:39

I haven't this problem with the last MPC build of celtic_druid.
You mean the problem that I have, right?
Very strange than cause I have the same build.
Hmm...

PS: should I restart the computer? before I didn't had to do it, but what do I know?

Peuj

14th February 2007, 13:59

You mean the problem that I have, right?
Very strange than cause I have the same build.
Hmm...

PS: should I restart the computer? before I didn't had to do it, but what do I know?

I don't have the problem too. And I didn't reboot the computer.

Maybe you should try to close MPC, uninstall haali and reinstall.

MatMaul

14th February 2007, 14:04

I haven't restarted too :), because the installer don't ask me to reboot like it does if a component of the splitter is in use when I upgrade.

tekNerd

14th February 2007, 14:53

I don't have the problem too. And I didn't reboot the computer.

Maybe you should try to close MPC, uninstall haali and reinstall.

Now I have to reboot 'cause it seems that something was using Haali upon uninstall. Bo...

tekNerd

14th February 2007, 19:21

So I restarted, install Haali again and nothing. I still can't choose it.
WTF is going on with my computer?

EDIT:
GOT IT! The SpywareTerminator with Hips enabled, this is what is wrong with my computer.
The thing is that I allowed all, but I guess this HIPS thing is a tricky shit. Hmm...
On with testing...

KoD

14th February 2007, 21:16

I got the same problem with no longer seeing the Haali Video Renderer after installing. Asking for more info in the installer, it showed that dxr.dll was the first file to be registered and it failed with a "Could not load: E:\Program Files\Haali\MatroskaSplitter\dxr.dll" message. Simply registering that file myself worked, however.

sillKotscha

14th February 2007, 22:34

just a head up for Haali...

I didn't had any of the mentioned problems while installing your latest splitter release...

/me owning a simple XP-SP2 OS

anonymez

14th February 2007, 23:59

tried rebooting, uninstalling, re-installing etc, still disabled in MPC. like KoD, manually registering dxr.dll fixed it

XP SP2, no spyware/anti-virus installed. never happened with previous versions

Haali

15th February 2007, 03:51

It was an installer problem, I've uploaded a fixed one now.

aydc

16th February 2007, 13:17

The new version works quite good. No problems in installation or playback. There's no vsync option anymore. I didn't understand that the new sliders in the control panel were for, but I didn't have much time to try and find out. A help file might be useful in the next version.

ExtraEye

16th February 2007, 23:44

haali - new version doesn't have Vsync and now the video is out of sync for me... I lowered all settings and still :( Why was it removed?

Haali

17th February 2007, 03:37

Soft vsync always caused tearing, so I removed it. And it's not related to a/v sync.

ExtraEye

17th February 2007, 09:53

Then I don't know why this is. Does it drop frames when needed? because after I zeroed the sharpening that's the only difference that can be left. with VMR the frame droping from ffdshow works.

Haali

17th February 2007, 10:35

No, the renderer doesn't drop frames. If your machine is too slow it would lose a/v sync.

KoD

17th February 2007, 10:40

3000+ Athlon, geforce 6600GT <- That system should have no issues.

ExtraEye, use the nvidia control panel to set vsync on in it for DirectX. Also, in your decoders, let them output only rgb32 and nothing else. This does reduce cpu usage significantly on my system, even if I have a different gfx card from another manufacturer.

tekNerd

17th February 2007, 11:01

Not sure how exactly this type of testing must be done, but I just "watched them in action" so here we go:
[The same settings for both renderers]
Haali[left] VS. VMR9[right]

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9356/haalivsvmr9qa9.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9356/haalivsvmr9qa9.jpg)

KoD

17th February 2007, 11:51

You have to say which half of the image comes from which renderer. ^^

But I suspect the jaggies on the left side are from Haali's renderer. Yes, the last version did not get rid of them.

Keepitsimple

17th February 2007, 14:00

huh, I have actually never noticed that.

ExtraEye

17th February 2007, 14:13

no - still out of sync.
I have to drop frames. I watch the videos on my TV on the resolution 1920/1080. Probably a good reason to drop frames.

MetalPhreak

18th February 2007, 07:42

I also have the jaggies problem. I'm using a GeForce FX5700 with version 93.71 drivers. Been seeing this since Haali introduced support for Pixel Shader 1.1

kurt

18th February 2007, 09:39

no problem with ati radeon 1400: http://i19.tinypic.com/4brfll2.jpg

btw: thanks for solving the tearing problem. It is almost gone completely here :)

tekNerd

18th February 2007, 17:03

So, this jaggies things related to video card then.
I have a GeForce PCX 5750 with the latest driver and, I hope I am not mistaken, all of us who reported the jaggies have an nvidia card.
So, does this mean that the card is broken or that the driver is?

pinkie_1

18th February 2007, 18:22

6200 NV44 here, vsync thru driver (93.81), RGB32 as output : no particular issues with tearing.

Perhaps the culprits are the drivers (an inappropriate driver for your specific videocard ?)...

bfree

18th February 2007, 18:59

Hi, i'm having some problems with Haali Renderer.
During playback I noticed white dots appearing sometimes.
example, check right of her face. (http://dump.desertstorm.be/whitedots.png)
By reading this thread I learned it had to do something with the colorspace. When I only output RGB32 in ffdshow the dots are gone. But now they still appear in mpeg2/h264 playback. (powerdvd7 decoder, so no ffdshow involved)
What is the best way to get RGB output with this decoder or to fix the dotproblem?

I also have an h264 file that crashes mpc when I try to play it with Haali Renderer.
movie excerpt 1440x1080i.h264.dd51.ts (http://dump.desertstorm.be/1440x1080i.h264.dd51.ts)
Used filters when crashing:
http://dump.desertstorm.be/filtersh264.png
(AMD x2 3800+, nvidia 7900GT.)

moshmothma

19th February 2007, 05:19

Haali - thanks for the awesome work - does the splitter recognize the pcm soundtrack in bluray files?

Also, the sync in ts files when seeking is off. Prolly already know this.

Thanks again.

Haali

19th February 2007, 06:01

Also, the sync in ts files when seeking is off. Prolly already know this.

Sorry, doesn't happen with any of the ts files I have.

Seb.26

19th February 2007, 10:10

Hi world ! :)

I've just installed last release (15/02) ... And got tearing + jerks playback ...

CPU use is about 25% :
.Hard = Opteron dual core 2.2GHz + 6600GT PCIe + 1Go DDR2 ...
.Soft = XP pro SP2 + nForce 97.92 + MPC + DScaler(YU2) + FFDShow( resize lanczos(*1.25;4;0.8), out=RGB32 ) + Haali's render.

Back to VMR9 ...

Mc Onyx

19th February 2007, 11:56

KoD

19th February 2007, 13:28

I'm experiencing jaggies sometimes as well, and I use an Ati Radeon 9700 pro. So, it's not something linked to Nvidia cards or drivers.

The effect is very visible on subtitles rendered by vsfilter over the video - > the resized subtitles have a blocky appearance. Perhaps the shader chosen by the video renderer for certain gfx cards uses less samples to work with to speed up things ? Maybe skipping the second shader pass can cause this ? It could also be these new two pass shaders require higher fillrate than the older one pass shader so hardware on which the older shader was still able to do its job is no longer adequate ? The result is definitely not worth it. Hardware overlay resizing gives better results than the new shaders on this gfx card.

Seb.26

19th February 2007, 13:49

Maybe allow the user to select shader script can help ... ;)
... in other words : more work for Haali ... :p

@Haali : have you plan to "open" the source of your render ?!

aydc

19th February 2007, 15:01

I don't care about open source for this renderer as long as Haali himself keeps releasing a new version at least once a month.

It's not like there are a lot of people on this world who can develop a video renderer for an OS even if they had the source. :)

Gnerma

19th February 2007, 15:15

Hey there Haali. I'm having a problem with the latest versions of the rendered on Vista Business. The picture flashes back and forth between the correct image and a scrambled mess such as in this screenshot (http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/3464/haalirenderervistavt0.png). This happens about 3 - 5 times a second. Sometimes stopping the video and restarting it will clear up the problem. This can happen as soon as pressing play or it can start up randomly during playback. This does not happen with VMR9. The corruption sometimes stops happening after a while if I let the video play.

Anybody else seeing this one on any Aero enabled Vista versions?

I'm running an ATi X1900XT 256mb with Cat 7.1.

Seb.26

19th February 2007, 15:51

It's not like there are a lot of people on this world who can develop a video renderer for an OS even if they had the source. :)
but a lot of coders could add some options if they have source code ...
> OSD ( I need to know D3D detected refresh rate, today only Reclock can do that, but I don't want Reclock anymore... )
> Buffer management ( I love to be able to start playback after the buffer is x% filled )
> Set what frames are bufferred ( input frames or resized frames ? )
> Lots more ( add some shaders passes for sharpening, denoising ...ect... )

;)

But only Haali can decide to release the source or not ...

3ngel

20th February 2007, 17:18

I have to report another critical bug.
On 32bit cpu, opening a file, then stop, then close MPC, the reopen the file MPC remain freezed, and there is no way to relaunch the file unless you reset!
Well, unfortunately i have to say that this program is like a swiss cheese :) and the developer is not so disposed to improve it :(

Seb.26

20th February 2007, 17:21

I have to report another critical bug.
On 32bit cpu, opening a file, then stop, then close MPC, the reopen the file MPC remain freezed, and there is no way to relaunch the file unless you reset!
Hey ... I have found this too ... but wasn't able to define it as you do ... I will test this ;)

Well, unfortunately i have to say that this program is like a swiss cheese and the developer is not so disposed to improve it
Hmm ... ask for a refund ... :devil:

Peuj

20th February 2007, 17:33

yes it's sad, I have switched back to VMR9. :(

3ngel

20th February 2007, 18:10

Hmm ... ask for a refund
Whom i must write? :D

Antilope.CZ

20th February 2007, 19:48

Back to RGBA32 + WMR9 too :(

I thought Haali is trying to minimize the tearing instead of eliminating it, but than I noticed that WMR has the same problem. Fortunately, Lock back buffer option solves it (only with WMR), but playback is less smooth and CPU overhead rises :( Never had a problem in any game...

I wish amazon had a book how to make your own OpenGL renderer and add it to MPC :devil: I program shaders myself so it should be quite easy :o

I give Haali another year :) :thanks: anyway

bfree

21st February 2007, 00:47

I had those when my memory on the GPU was too overclocked. If you have overclocking enabled for the memory on GPU, try lowering the value.

Well the memory isn't overclocked and the dots disappear when the output is RGB32 so I guess it isn't a memoryproblem. Thanks anyways.

Seb.26

21st February 2007, 11:27

I thought Haali is trying to minimize the tearing instead of eliminating it
By the Haali's method, if you haven't tearing in games when vsync ON, you don't have with Haali render ...

The problem is elsewhere and is really strange ...

I wish amazon had a book how to make your own OpenGL renderer and add it to MPC I program shaders myself so it should be quite easy
That's why I have asked if Haali plan to open his source ... ;)
... but "drawing" is about 10% of the program ... all job is about DirectShow render ... a hard task !!! ( go in MSDN DirectShow reference ... )

Antilope.CZ

21st February 2007, 17:38

... but "drawing" is about 10% of the program ... all job is about DirectShow render ... a hard task !!! ( go in MSDN DirectShow reference ... )

Oh, I'm well aware of that :( If you could simply grab the frames and send them to video RAM, then just render with shaders of your choice. But this way, I understand how messy it must be and I admire Haali for his work.

Seb.26

21st February 2007, 18:35

But this way, I understand how messy it must be and I admire Haali for his work.
you can ... IMO it's an impressive piece of code !!!

andybkma

22nd February 2007, 00:29

Can somebody please provide a link to Haali's version 31/01/2007? I installed the newest version 15/02/2007 the other day and experience more tearing than before but like a bonehead I deleted the old version's installer. So I'm kinda stuck.. could someone pls stick it on rapidshare or something?

LoRd_MuldeR

22nd February 2007, 01:41

Seb.26

22nd February 2007, 09:47

http://mulder.brhack.net/temp/MatroskaSplitter.2007-01-31.exe ;)
Thanks too !!! ...

NB: Haali :! have you a tri-tube projector ?! ;) ... is it for that kind of hardware that you add the RGB plan H+V offset ?! ;)
( or is it for creating 3D like picture ... lol )

Haali

22nd February 2007, 10:48

NB: Haali :! have you a tri-tube projector ?! ;) ... is it for that kind of hardware that you add the RGB plan H+V offset ?! ;)
( or is it for creating 3D like picture ... lol )
An older LCD one, maybe its lcd panels are not properly aligned, or it's a low quality lens.

Seb.26

22nd February 2007, 18:07

An older LCD one, maybe its lcd panels are not properly aligned, or it's a low quality lens.
... ok, so you don't plan to emulate 3D old-scholl display ( with red+blue glasses ) ... ;)

NB: if both offset vectors are null, does the shader will do the '+' operation ?! ...
( in other words : when offset is null, is there a waste of GPU time ?! )

In any case, that a 'never seen' feature in a render !!!
... maybe -2/+2 is a little bit not enought IMO ... :D

Haali

23rd February 2007, 22:24

When all offsets are zero the code is skipped completely.

Seb.26

26th February 2007, 13:05

When all offsets are zero the code is skipped completely.
OK, that's perfect ! ...

NB: I'm re-using your render, playback problems was due to my CG ... the HR make it too hot ( about 70°c after few second ) ... :o

All is perfect for me today !!! :)

:thanks: 4 all your work.

Seb.26

27th February 2007, 12:39

27/02/2007
* New Features:
o Added MPEG PS support (incomplete).
o Added VC-1 in TS/PS support.
o Added more items to the renderer OSD.
o Renderer OSD can now be activated with right-Alt+O.
o Added LPCM in TS support (incomplete).
o Improved GDSMux utility.
o Improved seeking in TS files.
* Fixed items:
o Fixed display when the window is partially outside the screen.
o Allow playback when TS file duration can't be detected, seeking is not possible in this case.
o H.264 with short startcodes in TS is now properly handled.
o Muxer bugfixes.
Sorry for posting news like this one, maybe it's not "my task", but since nobody done it ... :o ...

sillKotscha

27th February 2007, 13:18

Sorry for posting news like this one, maybe it's not "my task", but since nobody done it ... :o ...

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=961837&postcount=533

Peuj

27th February 2007, 13:28

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=961837&postcount=533

;)

Thanks anyway Seb.26 as I don't look in "New and alternative a/v containers".

and thanks Haali too :)

For my part the Sharpness still didn't work on my config. :(
And the OSD doesn't show anything but maybe i miss something here? (I don't use any splitters)

Seb.26

27th February 2007, 14:06

Thanks anyway Seb.26 as I don't look in "New and alternative a/v containers".
I never go there too ... :D

Haali

27th February 2007, 14:15

You need d3dx9_29.dll for OSD.

Seb.26

27th February 2007, 14:18

--- Removed ---

sillKotscha

27th February 2007, 14:23

Thanks ;)

You can found them here : http://www.toymaker.info/Games/html/d3dx_dlls.html

go to microsoft and download the dxwebsetup (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=2da43d38-db71-4c1b-bc6a-9b6652cd92a3&DisplayLang=de)...

it will only update those files that you really need for an up2date DirectX 9.0c ;)

Peuj

27th February 2007, 14:40

Ok thanks all, the OSD works well now.

@ Haali do you have any idea why the Sharpness doesn't work on my config? just to know if it's normal and I stop to cry :)

GeForce FX 5200 with nvidia driver 93.81.

thanks

Haali

27th February 2007, 18:33

There is some incompatibility with gf5xxx, but I couldn't find any such card for testing so far.

Keepitsimple

28th February 2007, 00:41

I use mpc/ffdshow and haali mediasplitter.

Is Haalis renderer capable of playing yv12 colorspace? I cant get haalis renderer to work with yv12 in mpc. If I want to stay in yv12 space I have to use wmr. If I only enable yv12 in ffdshow and have haalis renderer selected in mpc I still get something called "video renderer" which I dont know what it is. I get a lot lower cpu utilization with this "video renderer" though.

Haalis seems to accept yuy2 and rgb.

Ps. How do I check which colorspace a particular movie uses?

Haali

28th February 2007, 01:05

That is correct, HR accepts only RGB32 and YUY2/UYVY. As for CPU usage, HR is designed to use shaders to achieve better quality, not minimize CPU use. So it's no surprise that it is slower than yv12 overlay.

pinkie_1

28th February 2007, 01:07

As stated many times before, it does not work with YV12.
I use mpc/ffdshow
How do I check which colorspace a particular movie uses?
Open ffdshow's video decoder configuration panel, enable OSD, check input/output colorspace, apply&save...

mariner

28th February 2007, 07:33

Hi Haali,

Thanks for the new renderer. It seems to struggle at 60fps. while vmr7(windowed) and vmr9(renderless exclusive) have no problem.. Used built-in mpc mpeg decoder with bob deinterlacing to output 1920x1080 @ 60fps clips.

Thanks and best regards.

Peuj

28th February 2007, 10:18

There is some incompatibility with gf5xxx, but I couldn't find any such card for testing so far.

Thanks for the reply.
I don't know if it's possible but if you like to send me a debug version to find what is the problem just let me know.

Warpman

28th February 2007, 19:08

resizing stil broken here :X
haali http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/9657/10915bq3.th.png (http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10915bq3.png)
vmr9 windowed
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2851/10915v2pg2.th.png (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10915v2pg2.png)

the osd works fine though... i enabled OSD... maybe its helpful in debugging

:thanks:

MacAddict

1st March 2007, 01:17

I had the same artifact issue (jaggy edges) as Warpman above the other day. Haven't played around too much with it but I'll try and reproduce it when I get home.

tekNerd

1st March 2007, 07:33

Ya, the jagged image is still here too, but I was on impression that this is a hardware+driver issue. Was I wrong?

KoD

1st March 2007, 10:11

The jaggy edges usually happen when there are fast pans. Mostly visible on diagonal lines in the image (material like anime where there is a visible sharp distinction between objects is where this is easy to spot).

Visible with 640x480 or similar resolutions when resized to 1280xsomething and not with HD material. Fonts overlayed on top of the video by vsfilter are visibly blocky when such resizing is performed.

tekNerd

1st March 2007, 11:40

Using Haali Media Splitter with:

Haali renderer: big CPU load and this is the image sample with the jaggy stuff:
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/388/010320071102tz4.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/388/010320071102tz4.jpg)

VMR 9 rendereless renderer[use regular offscreen plain surfaces, Resizer: Nearest neighbor]: fair to big CPU load [spiking like hell] and image sample:
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6923/010320071104qm5.th.jpg (http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6923/010320071104qm5.jpg)

SPECS:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2540/specsim7.jpg

If I am doing this tests all wrong please tell me and teach me. Thank u!

Peuj

1st March 2007, 11:53

SPECS:

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2540/specsim7.jpg

If I am doing this tests all wrong please tell me and teach me. Thank u!

well....

Originally Posted by Haali:
There is some incompatibility with gf5xxx, but I couldn't find any such card for testing so far.

...It seems it your case

tekNerd

1st March 2007, 12:57

Yes, you are right.
I read gf5xxx, but my mind just drove me to FX series and...the rest.
Oh well, too bad for me.
Anywho, thanks.

Warpman

1st March 2007, 17:48

There is some incompatibility with gf5xxx, but I couldn't find any such card for testing so far.
well not the perfect solution, just a suggestion....
could you make a build that uses the old long shader commands instead of multiple short ones? that worked with my 5900xt :(

because the bug appeared after you switched to that solution...

Haali

1st March 2007, 22:26

I've changed a few things that might fix the gf5xxx problem, please check http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/mkx.I.4.exe

Warpman

1st March 2007, 22:40

great haali! it's fixed!
picture looks perfect!

some samll issues though... but not really importent... im glad my favorite renderer works again...
# one open file at the same time is allowed, else the second video returns a black image...
# a click on "Show osd" and then "apply" results in a memory access violation and mpc closes...

but on the other hand BEST sharpness ever, fast as hell on my 5900xt ^^
100x :thanks:

tekNerd

2nd March 2007, 08:56

Yeesss! Works perfect!
:thanks: a bunch Haali, you are the best!

PS: Since I am here--Why the spliter is not recognizing the .hdmov? I mean, I can manually construct the graph, but in automated maner[render media file... from GraphEdit] it can't. If I rename the same file to .mov works perfect. Just wondering around, no pressure or anything.
One more time-- you are the best!

Peuj

2nd March 2007, 12:00

# a click on "Show osd" and then "apply" results in a memory access violation and mpc closes...

I cannot reproduce the problem with OSD but I have a crash with MPC when a modify the sharpness level

AppName: mplayerc.exe AppVer: 6.4.9.0 ModName: dxr.dll
ModVer: 0.0.0.0 Offset: 000269a8

but on the other hand BEST sharpness ever, fast as hell on my 5900xt ^^
100x :thanks:

Well good news for you, for my part I still don't see the difference between sharpness 0 and -1. :(

but thanks anyway @ Haalli for the work.

sidding

3rd March 2007, 04:19

man, i registered a nick here but forgot to post about this delay problem for 3 months, wonder if you guys still have it.

anyway, my ht 3.0 p4 got the same freezing problem when you open a new video or something like that too. i traced the problem back to my HAL and maybe kernel too.

i was fooling around at that moment and replaced my ACPI multiprocessors HAL with a MPS HAL and the freezing appears. if your HAL is not MPS then it's probably not what i'm talking about.

if you want to check your HAL, open device manager, the type of your HAL is under Computer. maybe the os kernel has something to do with it but that's probably not the case.

last words: please don't play with your HAL (hardware abstraction layer), it's dangerous and you can end up trashing your windows.

anonymez

7th March 2007, 22:24

New release (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/):

07/03/2007

* New Features:
o Improved gdsmux.
o Added support for S_TEXT/ASCII subtitles to the DS muxer filter.
o Added support for H.264 in MPEG-PS.
o Improved support for DD+ in MPEG-PS.
o Added a bitrate graph to the renderer OSD (only active when the splitter is used as source).
o Added some support for PCM an ulaw audio in qt files.
o Added automatic linking of VOB files.
* Fixed items:
o Renderer: eliminated an incompatibility with geforce 5 hardware.
o Renderer: fixed a distroted picture with some VfW codecs.
o Fixed a problem with seeking in MPEG-PS/TS.

:thanks:

SBeaver

8th March 2007, 00:29

I have some issues with this.
hd dvd is being scaled down to 960x540, how do I change that?

Also, when I increase the buffer I lose video and have to put it back to 32megs to get it back.

foxyshadis

8th March 2007, 01:34

You're not the only one with the problem: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123048

SBeaver

8th March 2007, 02:20

You're not the only one with the problem: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=123048

other renderers seem to be ok though, I think my problem is only with this renderer.

edit: or maybe they downscale and then upscale to fool me. I can't tell.
I can't see what else than haali could be responsible for my downscaling, I've tried both ffdshows decoder for vc1 and wmv DMO decoder and they both report that they give away a 1920x1080 size to the renderer and the haali renderer says its input is 1920x1080 and that it downscales.
Is this Vista playing tricks on me?

foxyshadis

8th March 2007, 05:57

Haali always rescales to fit your screen. If your input is the right size, you'll get it scaled from the original. Haali's renderer will never downscale and then upscale from that, a lot of people just get freaked out by the fact that it's smaller than full screen when they open it.

Ghim

9th March 2007, 13:16

I've been using Haali Renderer for some time now and I am very happy with the quality of the rendering and the processing time.

However, I have a small issue which stops me from using it all the time:

- I am using Haali Renderer with Zoom Player 5. When I watch a video in full screen, I sometimes use the zoom function of ZP to remove the black borders on the left and on the right of the videos which are sometimes present on DVDs. However, as soon as I try to zoom in (video window larger than screen), the renderer doesn't show anything anymore (black picture). As soon as I go back to a video display resolution smaller than my screen resolution, the video re-appears.

Here is my display configuration: Windows XP SP2, Geforce 6800GT, 1920x1200 resolution.

Also, I have an other quick request to make. It would be good to have a button in the configuration dialog to reset the settings to the default values.

Haali

9th March 2007, 14:35

- I am using Haali Renderer with Zoom Player 5. When I watch a video in full screen, I sometimes use the zoom function of ZP to remove the black borders on the left and on the right of the videos which are sometimes present on DVDs. However, as soon as I try to zoom in (video window larger than screen), the renderer doesn't show anything anymore (black picture). As soon as I go back to a video display resolution smaller than my screen resolution, the video re-appears.

This will be fixed in the next release.

3ngel

10th March 2007, 00:07

In this last version i have to say, that the things go good.
The critical freeze bug has been gladly corrected.
But... what does it cost to you to fix the HuffyYUV black screen bug? :( (what a pity the :cry: smile is not present)

Ghim

10th March 2007, 00:19

This will be fixed in the next release.

This is very good news !
This renderer is getting better and better ;-)

hdboy

10th March 2007, 21:23

well, just want to say a big THANKS to Haali for the renderer (using the one that comes with 07/03/07 splitter.

my setup: gigabyte 7600GT forceware 93.81, AMD X2 3800+ @2.5ghz, MPC celtic_druid latest build, 21" LCD PC monitor primary, philips plasma 1366x768 secondary, dualview, winXP SP2

I struggled a long time to get MPC to work with VMR9, but playback is never quite smooth. I can use overlay, but certain things don't work. In particular, some filters just don't want to output to 2nd monitor with overlay. So I keep switching renderer depending on what I'm playing.

Now with Haali, it's all good. Handles everything I throw at it -- ripped EVO and m2ts, 1080i mpeg2 ts, 1080p quicktime h264 trailer. Playback is as smooth as overlay, and no real difference in CPU usage. I haven't noticed the jaggies others talk about; I'll try to stare at it more closely.

Only bug so far I've found is when I set MPC to change res when going full screen, it freezes when I switches to full screeen (okay with overlay and vmr9). And I don't see any difference with sharpness 0 or -1 (is -1 sharpest or 0 sharpest?)

My requests: have the "show OSD" box be sticky so it doesn't have to be set each time (good for testing). also, have some kind of version # in the renderer dialog.

again, a big thanks. Oh, and the latest splitter is great for HD too :)

foxyshadis

11th March 2007, 11:47

It doesn't actually sharpen, it only performs softer or sharper resizing. Since it seems your video is mainly as larger or larger than your screen resolution, you won't really be affected by the sharpness parameter. (Downsize modes are barely differentiable.) When upsizing DVD or smaller you'd see it right away.

sundansx

12th March 2007, 08:11

I am using Zoomplayer 5 with the newest Nvidia Decoder and the Haali Video Renderer (HVR 1.7.100.18).
Details:
AMD X2 4200
Nvidia 7800GT video card
2Gig memory
Nvidia Video Drv 93.71
NVidia 223 Decoder (HW accel, Automatic DELCont, Best Available DIL mode, 1 tick on edge sharp, adp pix del on)
Zoomplayer 5
Bad movies showing this problem: A scanner darkly, Alien Vs. Predator

When playing a DVD to HVR in this setup, and moving back to the main menu of the DVD. There is no video displayed. When I select root menu again, it is displayed. Tried this on my HTPC (6600GT with Purvideo decoder v185, Zoom4) with older drivers...same thing. Tried both computers with overlay and VRM9..no problems.
I also noticed some intermittant zoom crashes (really a freeze), while playing DVDs, but I will consider that a seperate problem that needs more investigation to quantify it.
For S&G I tried the 7800GT setup with intervideo and powerdvd decoders and it doesn't seem to have a problem with HVR.

Have others run into this? Is the cause of this known?
thanks for any help, and thanks to Haali for your generous contributions. Great work.

aydc

13th March 2007, 18:44

Feature Request: Brightness, Gamma and Saturation controls. Shouldn't be too hard to add, and it's absolutely needed since Haali Renderer disables VMR color controls found in most players.

Haali

14th March 2007, 02:10

Btw, if you force AA in your drivers, the renderer can fail to work properly, so don't do that and force AA only in specific apps that don't support the setting.

Keepitsimple

14th March 2007, 04:31

haali how about adding the option of using different resizers :).

what does the sharpening 0-1 do? As I understand you use bicubic resizing at the moment. How do you make bicubic sharpen in so many steps?

aydc

14th March 2007, 10:18

Egh

18th March 2007, 19:16

After a quick comparison of ffdshow's resizing with lanzcos method to Haali's resizing (I don't know what method it uses), I can see that lanzcos is a bit sharper by default. If you select maximum sharpness with ffdshow lanzcos, it is much much much sharper than Haali Renderer's maximum sharpness.

So much sharpness isn't good for low and middle quality DivX movies, so Haali's maximum is good enough there. In high quality DVD's however, maximum sharpness resizing with Lanzcos gives an incredible image quality that looks very close to HD movies. So I use ffdshow resizing + VMR9 with DVDs, and Haali for everything else.

Haali renderer uses Bicubic resizing, which is by default in ffdshow is much blurier than Lanczos. Also take note that Lanczos can use different number of taps, which affects it's quality (and artefacts). Bicubic in theory can be done very sharp (and very bad in quality :)). Note that Haali uses one combined parameter (A), similar to vdub implementation, whilst e.g. AVS version uses both vars a and b, so you can easily oversharpen in avs using bicubic rezisor (it is recommended that 2*a+b=1, else you over- or under- sharpen video, with with equation >1 or <1 respectively).

dumbuser

19th March 2007, 05:17

I tried the newest Haali splitter today (7/3/2007 version 1.7.100.18). I find that the seeking issue in MPEG TS is still unresolved. Seeking within a standard MPEG 2 format leaves the audio way in front of the video. As long as you don't seek the sinc between audio and video is normal.

I also tried h.264 in a MPEG TS container using x264 and still don't have recognition of these files (the Haali splitter for TS shows no video pin output). The audio (ac3) is normal.

Graph Edit and WMP 11 was used for the tests. Not my favorite players :) but allows realistic results. The decoders on my system are CoreAVC 1.1.0.5 and WinDVD 7.

MPC (using Gabest's internal TS splitter) continues to play these files properly.

3ngel

20th March 2007, 17:30

I have to signal another bug.
With latest version Mkv + x264 + audio + subtitles, MPC after opening the .mkv freezes.
What does it happen?
Using vsfilter for subtitles.

Unearthly

20th March 2007, 20:13

Hello. First I'd like to say that I really like Haali's renderer so far. The resizing is very good and the IQ overall looks better than what I usually use (VMR9).

However, I have encountered a bug and I wondered if anyone else has any idea as to it (I searched this thread but was unable to find anything).

When I do a resize using either FFDShow filter Resize or using the AVISynth filter and using one (I used Lanczos), Haali zooms in on the picture rather than resize. It seems that it is only rendering the original amount of pixels rather than increasing the render size. So if I resize something from 640x480 to 1280x960 I see 640x480 of the new 1280x960 image. This happens whether the resize is default when loaded or changed during playback.

It does, however, work if I put the avisynth filters into a avs script and then load that with MPC. However, that is less convenient than using FFDShow as I need to rewrite the script for every video I want to watch.

Anyone have any ideas behind this behavior?

roflrofl

21st March 2007, 02:06

Hoping someone can help me with this bug I'm experiencing..

My setup:

Amd X2 4200
1gb DDR
7900gs 256

Dual Display : 19" CRT and 32" LG 32LC2DB HDTV

MPC
Nvidia Purevideo
CoreAVC
Haali's Renderer
FFDshow

Basically when watching HD .TS files with Haali's renderer and any decoder, eg ffdshow or purevideo..when I try to watch them on my LCD tv the "jitter" in MPC shoots up and keeps going until the audio and video is horribly out of sync..the annoying thing is that if I watch them on my CRT monitor with the same codecs and settings the sync is fine.

Anyone else have this bug?

3ngel

21st March 2007, 09:25

Basically when watching HD .TS [....] the audio and video is horribly out of sync
Same here and already signalled. Sometime it shows up even in DVD with BOB deinterlacing.

EDIT:
@Haali
Even if i'm always critic i think you're doing a good job :)

Seb.26

22nd March 2007, 14:30

Hi world ! :)

I have saw a strange thing yesterday : I've got a video file ( .IFO ) that everytime I try to play it, the max frames number is blocked to 4 ( the minimum ) ... if I change it, and them re-open the HR properties page, it's back to 4 ... but all other files are OK ( I use 50 as setting ) ...

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Is this a known bug ?! ...

Haali

23rd March 2007, 00:14

In DVD graphs queue size is limited to the minimum, otherwise interactive menus are impossible to use.

roflrofl

23rd March 2007, 00:26

Haali,

Is there any way of fixing the bug where the audio will gradually lose sync with the video on .TS files

Haali

23rd March 2007, 02:37

A/V sync does not really depend on the renderer. In DShow framework A/V sync is achieved by using Presentation TimeStamps (PTS) that are attached to each frame. When the renderer receives a frame, it calls a DShow supplied function to wait until the frame PTS occurs, and then displays the frame. These PTS are produced by the splitter filter, and are possibly augmented by decoder filters, so if A/V sync is wrong, then it is caused by wrong PTS in most cases (In other cases the renderer simply can't keep up and lags behind real time). If you have a sample that reliably reproduces improper A/V sync, please send it to me, I'll try to figure what's wrong with it.

Vepar

23rd March 2007, 14:59

I discovered very strange thing.

Playing any movie with mpc+ffdshow+haali_r frozes my entire PC. It is not BSOD or restart just everything freezes after random play time. This only happens with haali renderer while vmr7/9 works just fine.

The most strange thing is that it worked fine on my previous machine which was athlon 2600 + gf 660gt agp while the new system have athlon64 x2 3800 + gf 7600gt pci-e.

any ideas anyone? :confused:

MatMaul

24th March 2007, 14:45

your renderer seems to do not support AR changing in a middle of a stream.
I join a TS capture (http://www.etud.insa-toulouse.fr/~mvelten/test.ts) where you can see the problem.

anonova

25th March 2007, 02:14

Is there a way to get the Haali Renderer to work with video acceleration with the PureVideo decoder?
In VMR9, PureVideo states this.
Decoder Format
DirectX VA mode A (idct)
Video mixing (DirectX 9)
With the Haali Renderer it states this.
Decoder Format
Software Mode YUY2
Undefined Renderer
Would this also be the cause of MPC crashing when I try to load a single vob by itself using the Haali Renderer?

KoD

25th March 2007, 12:22

MPC hangs for me too on opening a file if I choose Halli's video renderer. Amazingly, the behavior is like follows:
- first file opens fine
- second file, if it uses haali's splitter (is a mkv or ogm), the player hangs on opening; if the file is an avi file (haali's splitter is not enabled to handle avi files), the player doesn't hang on opening
This has happened for the last two or three versions, I believe.

ZoomPlayer doesn't have this issue, so I don't know if Haali's filters are to blame on this one.

CiNcH

25th March 2007, 16:54

I have also tried to enable DXVA for Elecard and nVIDIA. It did not work. Does DXVA require special support by the renderer?

Seb.26

26th March 2007, 09:20

In DVD graphs queue size is limited to the minimum, otherwise interactive menus are impossible to use.
Ok, but how does the render known it's interactive menu ?

... I have take one of my DVD, copy the main title to my HD with DVDFabDecrypter ... then when playing VIDEO_TS.IFO the maxFrame is 4, but when openning the VTS_0x.IFO, the maxFrame is OK ...

And the VIDEO_TS.IFO doesn't contain anything exept a link to the VTS_0x.IFO ...

So, is the maxFrame limit is activated by checking a flag ?

Haali

26th March 2007, 16:31

No, DXVA is not supported, you need to use VMR9 for that, because VMR9 _is_ the official MS API for using DXVA.

Haali

26th March 2007, 16:32

Graphs are treated as DVD when there is a DVD Navigator filter in them.

Seb.26

26th March 2007, 18:31

Graphs are treated as DVD when there is a DVD Navigator filter in them.
Ok, thanks :) ...
... I will try to understand why the navigator came in my graph ... :confused:

CiNcH

27th March 2007, 22:27

No, DXVA is not supported, you need to use VMR9 for that, because VMR9 _is_ the official MS API for using DXVA.

Thanks Haali for answering. Hope you allow me another question concerning your renderer...

Deinterlacing seems to be pretty good, pretty much looks like a motion adaptive algorithm. Did you program this pixelshader yourself?

Haali

28th March 2007, 10:57

It's a simple algorithm that chooses between weave and interpolation based on a motion threshold. Nothing advanced there.

aydc

28th March 2007, 15:10

W00t!!
New version on http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

28/03/2007

* New Features:
o The installer now shows a warning if you try to overwrite a newer version of the splitter.
o Added support for TRACKSETEX tags, they work much like TRACKSET ones below, with one addition: first word in the tag's value specifies the edition ID that is linked to this trackset. If that edition is activated from the UI, the trackset is also activated.
o Track numbers instead of track IDs can be specified in TRACKSET(EX) tags by using #num syntax.
o Added support for 'h264' fourcc to the muxer.
o The splitter will now register m2ts and evo extensions when MPEG TS/PS support is enabled.
* Fixed Items:
o Some code rearrangement in the renderer that allows it to work on Intel GMA950 graphics devices (onboard graphics commonly found in laptops). Also it might reduce tearing on some other chipsets (Intel driver doesn't like to be called from multiple threads, it's possible that there are more drivers like that).
o The splitter no longer removes extra H.264 SPS and PPS NALUs from the stream, since there are transport streams where SPS and PPS do change in the middle of a stream.

Kaonashi

29th March 2007, 23:07

Something weird has been happening to me. I'm using the latest Haali (28/03/2007) and when I select it in MPC to be the Output, the high-resolution files I have get resized.

Example: an XviD encoded file, in the Matroska container gets resized from 1280 x 720 to 640 x 360.

Is there any option in MPC or in Haali that I can use to disable this?

foxyshadis

30th March 2007, 06:32

It's only resized in default window view; internally it's the full size so fullscreen (and any resize) doesn't loose any resolution. Haali's given his reasons before (keeping the player from overflowing the screen, likely you have a 1280x1024 or x800 screen) and hasn't changed it, so...

If it's really a problem you can keep it zoomed 200% to get original size in windowed mode.

wozio

30th March 2007, 06:49

It's a simple algorithm that chooses between weave and interpolation based on a motion threshold. Nothing advanced there.

Halli do you consider using mocomp api for deinterlacing? Judging from docs it is quite simple to implement. It is enough to have media samples with interlace info (videoinfoheader2) and then pass frame (or frames depending on deinterlacing algorithm) as a surface and receive deinterlaced surface on output. I don't know how about deinterlacing rgb surface so manual color conversion might be a problem (passing raw data from yuv into rgb surface what I suppose you are using in your renderer).

roflrofl

30th March 2007, 13:26

Still having problems with Haali's renderer.

Namely excessive tearing and/or loss of audio sync.

Trying to play back 720p .mkv files with CoreAVC as the decoder and 720p/1080 .TS files with FFDshow as the decoder.

With the .mkv files I find tearing is a problem.

With the .TS files tearing is a problem unless I use Nvidia Video Post Processor as an external filter and that eliminates the tearing, however, using the Post Processor causes the audio to go out of sync the moment I switch to full screen.

Edit.

Just tried deactivating all external video filters and am using the internal MPC Mpeg2 decoder to play back my .TS files...

On my PC Monitor everything is flawless but when I switch to my 32" LCD the jitter starts increasing and keeps going! SO annoying!

Ghim

30th March 2007, 17:21

The new release fixes most of the problems I had with Haali Renderer.

I've done a bit of testing on my computer (WinXP, Athlon 64 3500+, Nvidia 6800GT) using Zoom Player 5 and Haali Render and I have one problem left:

- When I play DVDs using Gabest's MPV decoder 1.0.0.3 (http://sourceforge.net/projects/guliverkli), it plays fine but as soon a I reach a menu in the DVD, if I try to do any action in this menu, the player freezes.

If I replace Haali Renderer with VMR7 or VMR9, or if I replace MPV decoder by ffdshow, I don't have this problem.

moshmothma

2nd April 2007, 06:42

Latest version works great with TS files (seeking). Wierd problem with evo files though. Seeking freezes the player. Using haali and windows video decoder for vc1. Thanks

aydc

9th April 2007, 13:23

B.Slisk

9th April 2007, 16:07

I have started getting pixellized images, especially when I bring sharpness to 0. This happens more with low res movies than hi res movies. Maybe it was always there but I've just noticed it, maybe it's a new problem.Are you using the latest version of the Haali Renderer?

The version released 31/01/2007 introduced a problem where the renderer wouldn't scale content correctly on nVidia hardware, and possibly on ATI though I can't say for sure.

This problem remained through a few releases, and I think it was finally fixed in the 07/03/2007 release, and as far as I can tell the 28/03/2007 (current) release does not have this problem, at least not on a nVidia GF6600 card and using MPC.

leeperry

9th April 2007, 20:13

hey guys

could we get an option to enable/disable the TV>PC thingie ?

for DVD, this is required because it's actually 16-235, so 0-255 makes the image darker.

but for AVI/MKV, you must have it disabled otherwise the image is too bright......

and outputting to RGB32 to disable the TV>PC thingie kinda ruins the point of letting Haali's Renderer convert to RGB32 in hardware with the PS2.0

or is it disabled if you output UYVY ?!?

and also.......is it supposed to be sharper with -0.00 or -1.00 ?! I've got a sharpen filter enabled in KMP so I can't really tell....

Thanks :)

foxyshadis

10th April 2007, 00:45

I'd be incredibly grateful to have TV/PC levels selectable as in CoreAVC now, but it's been brought up enough times that I doubt it'll ever happen. Doing it at the YUV->RGB stage minimizes banding, though, and adding a very small dither - .5 bit or so random perterbation - to the conversion equations as a cheap high-quality debanding (much much faster than ffdshow's debanding) would be even more welcome.

leeperry

10th April 2007, 07:25

well the way I see it the whole point of this renderer is that it does the RGB32 convertion in hardware with the PS 2.0
If I have to throw RGB32 at it, it loses its major feature...

do you know if it does the luma convertion when you output to YUY2/UYVY ? I don't want TV>PC convertion for AVI/MKV :o

Seb.26

10th April 2007, 10:28

Hi guys ! :)

Does anybody know what can modify the "color/brightness/contrast/gamma" of HR ?!

Why ? ...

I have created 2 pictures with paintbrush :
> 1 white background (255;255;255) with 2 greys bars (250;250;250) & (245;245;245)
> 1 black background (0;0;0) with 2 greys bars (5;5;5) & (10;10;10)

I've save them in PNG files and then I use this pictures to calibrate my TV on the full 0..255 range

And with avisynth+x264, I've encode my 2 pictures to obtain a "calibration vidéo"
( levels haven't been TV rescaled : tested with FFDShow's level filter, they are OK )

The probem is that when I show pictures in desktop, I saw the bars ( I use them to calibrate my TV )
... but when I display same pictures but in video, I don't see them ... like if levels have been change ?!
( but they don't, so it could be the render IMO ?! )

... I use MPC with RGB output to Haali's Render

If anybody want, I can provide both pictures & clip ( and .avs scripts if needed ) for testing ... ;)

Thanks ;)
Seb.

[Edit] ... the problem was elsewhere ... all is OK with Haali's Render ... :)

chros

10th April 2007, 19:26

well the way I see it the whole point of this renderer is that it does the RGB32 convertion in hardware with the PS 2.0
If I have to throw RGB32 at it, it loses its major feature...
Really ?
So am I a total idiot that I let ffdshow the HQ RGB32 conversion ??? So can I turn it off without quality loss ?

And isn't it true for WMR9 renderers, is it?

Thanks

leeperry

10th April 2007, 20:17

well converting to RGB32 HQ sucks up a helluvalot of CPU cycles....

The whole point of this totally awesome renderer is that you can throw YUY2 at it......

so it goes like :
YV12 output from ffdshow > YV12 filters(sharpen,etc..) & upscale in 720p lanzcos 8 passes >YUY2 output(very EZ to convert from YV12) > Haali's

but it's only fine for 0-255 PC content(AVI/MKV/WMVHD etc...)

so for DVD's(which are 16-235), you have to stick with RGB32 and TV>PC conversion.....

at least that's what I understand.....and so far so good :D

and if you got a nvidia videocard, you need to hack the registry to make sure that it outputs 0-255 range on the DVI outputs.........that was my problem :o

Seb.26

11th April 2007, 08:44

/!\ HR will apply "TV->PC" levels rescale with YU2 input ... not with RGB32 ... ( on any GC )

leeperry

11th April 2007, 09:09

well I don't see a difference betweeen YUY2 and RGB32 output.....I've made many screenshots and compared them.

Seb.26

11th April 2007, 11:34

Are you saying that your render do the 16..235 -> 0..255 re-scale ?!
Yes, it does.

And what happen if the source is RGB32 ? ...
RGB32 is not scaled.

But you probably use FFDShow to convert YV12 to RGB32, so the TV->PC scale is done ... :p

leeperry

11th April 2007, 12:04

Seb.26

11th April 2007, 13:26

nope, I output YUY2 from ffdshow, I don't wanna waste my CPU time at processing dodgy conversions..
Hum ... this mainly depend on what hardware you have ...
... in my case CPU (Opteron 175) is a lot faster than CG (6600GT) ... :) ... RGB32 conversion far less than 5% ...

But that's not the problem here ... :p

My previous question was more about difference about RGB32 display on desktop and RGB32 displayed by Haali's render ... :)

Any idea ?!

Seb.26

11th April 2007, 13:27

why are AVI/MKV perfectly fine......and DVD's from WinDVD8 decoder too bright ? because it's done twice ?!?!
... try with DScaler ... :confused:

leeperry

11th April 2007, 13:45

I used to use Dscaler to drive my TV card.
I know you can use its filters in ffdshow.

can Dscaler play movies as well ?

anyway, KMP+HR for AVI/MKV/WMV and WinDVD8 Platinum for DVD's........and I'm a happy camper :D

and I kinda like its TrimensionDNM stuff :)

Seb.26

11th April 2007, 15:06

I used to use Dscaler to drive my TV card.
I know you can use its filters in ffdshow.
can Dscaler play movies as well ?
anyway, KMP+HR for AVI/MKV/WMV and WinDVD8 Platinum for DVD's........and I'm a happy camper :D
and I kinda like its TrimensionDNM stuff :)
DScaler 4.xx are filters used in FFDShow, but DScaler 5.xx is a stand alone DVD decoder ... :cool:

leeperry

11th April 2007, 15:48

oh well I've tried every possible DVD decoder.
The sharpest is with windvd8

and the TrimensionDNM is a real treat to look at :)

I know you can force it in ZoomPlayer, but for sum reason the registry trick ain't working with KMPlayer......so I stick to WinDVD8, which does the TV>PC thingie properly :o

wozio

11th April 2007, 19:12

nope, I output YUY2 from ffdshow, I don't wanna waste my CPU time at processing dodgy conversions..

but it seems that AVI/MKV are 16-235 like DVD........this point I'm not sure :(

so let's say all the movies whatsoever are 16-235.....and that HR in YUY2 does the TV>PC scaling.

why are AVI/MKV perfectly fine......and DVD's from WinDVD8 decoder too bright ? because it's done twice ?!?!
once in the decoder, and once in HR ?

I think I'm gonna stick to WinDVD8 for DVD's, and KMPlayer+HR for everything else.......then all my luma problems will be gone :D

Basically video standard is to code content in video scale (16-235), I haven't seen any video clip coded at pc scale. But in pc world everything is in pc scale.

There are two approaches how to handle it, extend to pc scale or leave it as it is and just convert to rgb.

First method is good for viewing on pc but can lower quality if done inproperly.

Second method is good for video use (as htpc for examle) display can be calibrated to have best quality possible.

HR always convert to pc scale and does it quite well I suppose.

VMR9 in with latest 7.3 ATI drivers does the same thing.

wozio

11th April 2007, 19:39

As you can see below both VMR9 and HR does color conversion similar but not the same, I don't know how to judge which one is better :-) But both convert to pc levels.

Here is HR (latest version in MPC, resized to match aspect ratio):
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/9794/hrrc4.th.jpg (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hrrc4.jpg)

and here VMR9 (renderless mode in MPC):
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/5343/vmr9po4.th.jpg (http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=vmr9po4.jpg)

I'll try to compare HD source later.

In fact color conversion (yuv->rgb) is dependent on driver when using VMR9 (HR does it "manually" using PS) and not by VMR9 implementation so results can vary from driver versions or ati from nvidia.

BTW VMR9 is much better at deinterlacing than HR. I tried to ask Haali about using dxva to deinterlace since it is separate from decoding acceleration and seems to be wuite easy to implement but without any answer.

Regards
Piotr

leeperry

11th April 2007, 19:46

and you got a ATI card I presume ?

I'm colorblind, I don't see a damn difference between your two pics :D :D :D

Well, if I use WinDVD8 MPEG2 decoder with VMR9 in RGB32, the picture is too dark....

and if I play XVID in VMR9/RGB32, the image is too damn bright..

I think I'm gonna quit bother about that, WinDVD8 + TrimensionDNM for DVD, KMPlayer+HR in YUY2 for everything else :D

Leak

11th April 2007, 20:02

I'm colorblind, I don't see a damn difference between your two pics :D :D :D
Never mind the colors - if you look closely at the first image you'll find it's blurred vertically when compared to the second one...

np: Jel - Thrashin (Soft Money)

leeperry

11th April 2007, 20:23

yeah but I don't think that's related to the renderer...

wozio

11th April 2007, 20:46

yep ATI card (x1650 pro) with 7.3 drivers.

Colors are almost the same, I don't know how to compare renderers in color conversion area. Maybe later I will run some test clip with color bars then we will decide.

lepperry try to save both images on disk and use app like acdsee to switch between them, you will see difference.

blur is related to deinterlacing, this is telecined mpeg2 source which must be processed with 3:2 pulldown to have good results. In motion it looks even worse in HR. (second thing is that deinterlacing process in ati drivers applies some sharpening to the image so it is a matter of taste).

I tried also some other mpeg2 decoder (dscaler5 decoder instead of cyberlink) with both vmr9 and hr and results are the same in deinterlacing area.

I will try hd source later, ati drivers have had problems with color conversion in there.

leeperry

11th April 2007, 21:00

as far as I'm concerned I won't be throwing MPEG2 frames to HR....too cumbersome with the double TV>PC conversions(one from the MPEG2 decoder, and one from HR) and all...

and I'm not sure HR is supposed to cope with that.
his job is too provide us with a playback smooth as butter and do the RGB32 conversion with the PS 2.0.......and it does it wonderfully :)

I personnaly upscale in 720p lanzcos 8 passes, and then I throw it to my SANYO beamer in 720p over HDMI......that's the reason why the sharpness option doesn't change a damn thing, no resize whatsoever is taking place.....

HR does what it knows, and it's spectacular :D

chros

11th April 2007, 23:35

Originally Posted by Haali
Originally Posted by Seb.26
Are you saying that your render do the 16..235 -> 0..255 re-scale ?!
Yes, it does.

Originally Posted by Seb.26
And what happen if the source is RGB32 ? ...
RGB32 is not scaled.
Thanks Seb, I didn't know that too :)
So, as far as I know, I can disable the HQ RGB conversion in ffdshow, right?
And it uses less CPU (not so much, but it matters in the postprocessing stage ...)

Can be any quality difference bitween HR and HQ RGB in ffdshow?
(I have tried to see some difference with xvid and x264-HD contents, but I didn't see anything...)

and if you got a nvidia videocard, you need to hack the registry to make sure that it outputs 0-255 range on the DVI outputs..
I have a Geforce 7600GT too, so can you link to the patch ? (I'm using DVI output (HDMI input) to my LG LCD TV)

leeperry

11th April 2007, 23:47

there u go :

well as my PJ attached to DVI connectors. Since I have been upgrading my
video driver I notice crushed video VMR9 levels on my calibrated PJ. My
first thought was, ok a bad edited DVD. But, I double checked then with
well known flics, unfortunately, same result.

Nvidia mentions a work around for their very cool "new detection
feature"

http://download.nvidia.com/Windows/84.21/84.21_ForceWare_Release_Notes.pdf

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Video color-space range for DVI-only1 outputs is erroneously set to
standard mode (16-235) instead of extended mode (0-255).
A new detection feature to apply Standard CSC mode to TV outputs
(including NTSC, PAL, 480i, and 576i), included DVI-only outputs by
mistake.
Note: The driver correctly applies extended mode to analog outputs, and
standard mode to TV outputs (including NTSC, PAL, 480i, and 576i).
A future driver release will correct this and apply the extended-mode color
space to DVI-only outputs.
You can work around this issue by forcing either standard or extended mode
as follows:
1 Launch regedit and determine the current primary display card by
looking in
HKey_Local_Machine\Hardware\DeviceMap\Video
and note the GUID (global unique identifier assigned by Windows),
which is the long string in brackets { } at the end of the entry
"\device\video0".
2 Look in
HKey_Local_Machine\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\
{GUID}\0000
where {GUID} is the number derived from the previous step.
3 Open the "0000" directory and create a new DWORD called
VMRCCCSStatus and give it a value of
0x3 - to force use of the standard YUV range of 16-235
0x1 - to force use of the extended YUV range of 0-255
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I did apply VMRCCCSStatus=1 for both DVI heads and after a reboot all
went back to full PC-Level range!

qyqgpower

12th April 2007, 04:38

I think YUV range shoudn't be extended since renderer should do the same thing when finnally output the frame on PC monitor in RGB format

wozio

12th April 2007, 08:37

as far as I'm concerned I won't be throwing MPEG2 frames to HR....too cumbersome with the double TV>PC conversions(one from the MPEG2 decoder, and one from HR) and all...

and I'm not sure HR is supposed to cope with that.

Decoders doesn't and shouldn't do TV->PC conversion, this is done in renderer during yuv to rgb conversion or in filters like ffdshow. One decoder which doesn't some kind of tv->pc scale conversion is coreavc but I don't knowhow it is done there since it works only in direct connection to VMR9, if you throw some other filter between, there is no effect in this.

his job is too provide us with a playback smooth as butter and do the RGB32 conversion with the PS 2.0.......and it does it wonderfully :)

This applies only for progressive sources, Haali himself wrote me that he doesn't care about deinterlacing because he doesn't watch interlaced sources. What is the effect you can see on my snapshots.

And also this yuv to rgb conversion, as you can also see this is not that big difference comparing to VMR9.

I would rather say that HR is best in resizing area, but on my samples you can't see it since they are 1:1 without resizing in renderer.

Seb.26

12th April 2007, 09:00

This applies only for progressive sources, Haali himself wrote me that he doesn't care about deinterlacing because he doesn't watch interlaced sources.
IMO : deinterlacing in HR is useless ... this must be done by FFDShow before first resizings/post processing ...

Leak

12th April 2007, 09:18

IMO : deinterlacing in HR is useless ... this must be done by FFDShow before first resizings/post processing ...
Also, simply deinterlacing is not a great idea on telecined material (i.e. video with 3:2 pulldown applied) - and I never managed to get ATI's 3:2 pulldown removal/deinterlacing to work correctly on my Radeon X1900... :(

That's why I'm currently working on a patch for ffdshow (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=987811#post987811) to allow AviSynth and TIVTC to be used on the fly; it's not 100% finished, but it works already. :D

wozio

12th April 2007, 09:39

Also, simply deinterlacing is not a great idea on telecined material (i.e. video with 3:2 pulldown applied) - and I never managed to get ATI's 3:2 pulldown removal/deinterlacing to work correctly on my Radeon X1900... :(

Thing is that not all mpeg2 decoders outputs frames in format which allows VMR9 to use dxva deinterlacing, I haven't had succes trying ffdshow. I use dscaler5 or cyberlink mpeg2 decoders and it works really good. Cyberlink only in dxva mode, dscaler5 when outputting nv12 colorspace and with deintelacing set to automatic.

Problem is that if you put ffdshow between decoder and vmr9 for postprocessing then deinterlacing will not work since as far as I know ffdshow doesn't preserve frames' interlacing flags (videoinfoheader2?). Also I don't know if ffdshow's filters and postprocessing work correctly on interlaced frames, I don't think so.

And also VMR9 must be in mixing mode for deinterlacing (yu can control this in MPC). And in ATI driver 3:2 pulldown is disabled by default, you must enable it via CCC or ati tray tools (much better to be honest and lightweight).

That's why I'm currently working on a patch for ffdshow to allow AviSynth and TIVTC to be used on the fly; it's not 100% finished, but it works already.:(

I will try this and compare.

Leak

12th April 2007, 12:02

I use dscaler5 or cyberlink mpeg2 decoders and it works really good. Cyberlink only in dxva mode, dscaler5 when outputting nv12 colorspace and with deintelacing set to automatic.
Yeah, I did that, but while it deinterlaced somewhat it also left some strange streaks in the chroma. Granted, it's been some time since I last tried this, but the result wasn't pretty.

Also, is 3:2 pulldown removal done by analyzing the video or just by relying on the interlace flags? If it's the latter, I have a few DVDs here where this plain won't work...

wozio

12th April 2007, 12:48

Yeah, I did that, but while it deinterlaced somewhat it also left some strange streaks in the chroma. Granted, it's been some time since I last tried this, but the result wasn't pretty.

You mean something like that:
http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/video_dec/mpg_opening2_1_ati_ati.jpg
?

If yes then this is known issue with denoising in ati drivers and is possible to switch off:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=676073&page=1&pp=30

Also, is 3:2 pulldown removal done by analyzing the video or just by relying on the interlace flags? If it's the latter, I have a few DVDs here where this plain won't work...

As fas as I know both:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2551&p=7

And as you can see this is very old article, there are some newer ones.

Leak

12th April 2007, 13:15

You mean something like that:
http://www.ixbt.com/video2/images/video_dec/mpg_opening2_1_ati_ati.jpg
?

If yes then this is known issue with denoising in ati drivers and is possible to switch off:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=676073&page=1&pp=30
Looks like that, yeah... :)

I'll give it another shot when I get time. Thanks for the info!

leeperry

12th April 2007, 16:32

IMO : deinterlacing in HR is useless ... this must be done by FFDShow before first resizings/post processing ...

exactly http://images.southparkstudios.com/img/content/news/3031a.gif

linear blending must be done prior to any other filters..otherwise you'll end up with jaggies

wozio

12th April 2007, 21:20

I did some checks and results are quite interesting. I compared yuv to rgb color conversion routines of three popular methods:

- ffdshow - hq yuv to rgb conversion checked and forced rgb output to vmr9
- haali renderer - hr doesn't want to connect to ffdshow on my machine god knows why, so I've used coreavc here but I checked on vmr9 and decoding results from coreavc and ffdshow were identical
- vmr9 - yuv mixing mode enabled, yv12 output from ffdshow

I used ati tray tools to make screenshots.

Here it is:
- ffdshow:
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/ffdshow.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=ffdshow.jpg)

- haali:
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/haali.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=haali.jpg)

- vmr9:
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/vmr9.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=vmr9.jpg)

As you can see all methods are quite similar, differences are visible but not big. I won't choose any of them since I don't have reference to compare.

But thing are getting interesting when we feed VMR9 with HD source or at least with 720 lines or more (I used the same clip resized in ffdshow to 1920x1080).

- vmr9 hd:
http://images6.theimagehosting.com/vmr9_hd.th.jpg (http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=vmr9_hd.jpg)

It seems that ATI drivers apply other equations to convert in hd size than in sd size. Once more it is hard to say which method is better.

Regards
Piotr

leeperry

12th April 2007, 22:28

nice screenshots, but I'm on my beamer atm so it's hard to examinate.

OTOH, I can confirm that this goddamn nvidia card was outputting 16-235 to my SANYO Z3 beamer :o

I've forced 0-255, and now the quality is just jaw dropping with that registry hack and HR..

I'm stunned, perfect colors over HDMI in 720p, lanzcos 8 passes resize and the very natural "basic" sharpen filter of KMPlayer........which turns SD in HD with one click.........and HR makes it so freakin' smooth :D

leeperry

12th April 2007, 23:03

only last issue, the last horizontal line of the image is made of green artefacts....they don't show up when I make screenshots....and it's due to HR, not my other filters..

any clue ?!

Thanks,

HeadBangeR77

12th April 2007, 23:20

@ wozio:
Either I'm totally blind or the first screen grab using ffdshow's conversion is much more colourful in terms of intensity and saturation, while the other two remain a bit washed-out and dimmed, as it's typical for VMR9 (unless both nVidia and ATI finally fix their 2d drivers :mad: )? Excuse, but I do see a huge difference between those screen shots. If was to sort them in terms of intensity of colours, I would say the coveravc does the worst job here, since there's a difference between it and the VMR9 + YUV mixing mode (a bit better imho).

@ all
As to HD sources, we've had some interesting discussion here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=972726#post972726

it really does depend on the resolution. ;)

cheers,
HDBR77

PS. Ooops, I've just realized it's been OT.

leeperry

13th April 2007, 00:27

ooooooh....the HR screenshot looks washed out indeed..

wozio

13th April 2007, 07:39

ffdshow is very very close to vmr9 in sd mode, haali is slightly different it clearly uses other color matrix. CoreAVC has nothing to tell here since it only decodes the stream not colors. I compared coreavc with ffdshow both connected to vmr9 and frames were identical, I couldn't see any difference. So all changes we are seeing are because of haali renderer's color conversion.

Anyway there is possibility to pass to color converter (renderer in our case) color matrix used in stream but problem is that no decoder supports it.

One more time: VMR9's conversion is up to the drivers, on other driver version result could be different, the same on nvidia cards and drivers. These results are for catalyst 7.3. Here is real strenght of HR and ffdshow. It is not dependent on driver because it uses it's own method. On different cards results should be the same.

leeperry

13th April 2007, 08:37

but you got an ATI card.......colors don't look washed out on my 6800GT using the latest XP drivers.

and anyone's getting green artefacts on the last horizontal line when using HR ?

wozio

13th April 2007, 10:40

but you got an ATI card.......colors don't look washed out on my 6800GT using the latest XP drivers.
You mean using haali renderer? On my ATI they aren't also :) they are slightly different but not washed out.

leeperry

13th April 2007, 10:45

well on your screenshots, they obviously do ?!

aydc

13th April 2007, 11:40

Isn't this color business a bit off-topic for this thread?

leeperry

13th April 2007, 12:51

well Haali's relies on the drivers color scheme........which doesn't seem to compete with ffdshow RGB32.......I think it's far from being OT

wozio

13th April 2007, 13:03

well Haali's relies on the drivers color scheme........
From where did you get that? Only VMR9 with yuv input uses driver's routine to convert to rgb. Both ffdshow and haali renderer are independent on drivers.

leeperry

13th April 2007, 13:47

well on your pictures the worst color-wise is with HR

and I believe it's using the videocard PS 2.0 to convert from YUY2 to RGB32......

even if HR somehow drives the conversion, it could obviously be improved....

but Haali doesn't seem to follow this thread :D

wozio

13th April 2007, 14:32

and I believe it's using the videocard PS 2.0 to convert from YUY2 to RGB32......

even if HR somehow drives the conversion, it could obviously be improved....
Yes HR uses pixel shaders to color convert but code for this shaders were written by haali, this is exactly the same what ffdshow is doing but in the GPU not in CPU, so it is not driver nor card dependent. On nvidia you will get the same results as on ati or intel or matrox or whatever card hr may be run on.

Haali

13th April 2007, 14:39

There is nothing to be improved. HR does YUV->RGB conversion using shader programs according to BT.601 matrix, and is not affected by driver defaults. TV levels scale (16..235) is always used, since this format is found most ofthen on DVDs and in reencoded files. Using colorspace conversion in ffdshow should achieve the same results, and is not needed if you are using HR.

leeperry

13th April 2007, 14:41

well..........how come the shots from FFD and HR don't look the same then ? HR looks washed out in comparison....

and anyone knows why the last line of the image is green when using HR ?
problem doesn't occur with VMR, and doesn't show up in screenshots......so this is a renderer issue.

Thanks ;)

3ngel

13th April 2007, 15:05

There is nothing to be improved. HR does YUV->RGB conversion using shader programs according to BT.601 matrix, and is not affected by driver defaults

Haali, first take it easy when you have critics, and in my opinion (granted your render is a pioneristic work) i think you have to listen more closely to what users say, not putting yourself in the position "hey it's my work and so you follow what i do". Yes it's your work and you do what you want, but who is that uses the renderer? The users. Who make it better and better? The user. So i think that at last some "work" is done by the users and their words have some weight.

TV levels scale (16..235) is always used, since this format is found most ofthen on DVDs and in reencoded files. Using colorspace conversion in ffdshow should achieve the same results, and is not needed if you are using HR.
I have serious things to say on this 'cause on DVD the TV scale is used because they are supposed to be seen on TV ("TV scale" don't you see similarity?).
In our case we use it on PC and so at last the first thing to do is to do a conversion on PC Scale.
Moreover i think the chain vojage from avi->monitor is not so simple, so every render (included yours) has to take into account different situations (like the screenshots posted), and not simply ignoring them basing on "technical theories" (like that the renderer uses PS and so every situation is always fine).

Haali

13th April 2007, 21:51

Let me rephrase, HR always assumes its input is using TV levels, and scales that to full range before converting to RGB. This is consistent with the behavior of YUV overlays, and most sources. There was some confusion when using VMRs, because sometimes they were using PC levels, but I've heard the defaults are changed back to TV levels in recent graphics drivers by ATI and Nvidia.

One of the reasons I've written this piece of software was a desire to have stable and consistent colorspace conversion that doesn't depend on driver defaults, while using d3d hardware to have better scaling.

This unfortunate situation is partially Microsoft's fault, because they didn't provide a standard way for the decoder to signal what YUV variant it was using. Driver writers also helped by using different conversions in d3d and YUV overlays.

leeperry

14th April 2007, 01:15

ok thanks for the infos Haali and this awesome piece of software ;)

but how come the FFDShow RGB32 HQ conversion looks more colorful than yours using YUY2......if it's using the same matrix conversion ?

and what's the big fuss all about to enable the user to toggle the TV>PC conversion ?

I've just watched TROY using HR in YUY2 on my beamer, I didn't find the colors washed out at all........and actually a lot better looking than VMR9/RGB32HQ.......I'm sold, where do I sign :D

3ngel

14th April 2007, 10:52

a desire to have stable and consistent colorspace conversion that doesn't depend on driver defaults, while using d3d hardware to have better scaling.
That's a good starting point and a good principle, BUT the error for me lies in the fact that you use d3d to perform operations like scaling, in this way you call yourself the total chaos because all your hard to make the video chain consistent simply VANISHES when you call the hardware dependent functions. This because at this point you have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL anymore.
In other words after the scaling phase you can have on the video anything the hardware like. And this is exactly what it happens with so many posts concerning jagging, whasing out and anything else. This because the hardware functions can be implemented by the hardware in a correct or non correct way. They can change anything (including altering the so precious colors), and you have this demonstration with different colors on different cards, and on different drivers too!

THE SOLUTION.
Make an option to do EVERYTHING CPU and just send dumbly RGB32 (not even RGB24 'cause alignment reasons) to the GPU.
It will be a CPU intensive renderer, it will be not for anyone but you can be mathematically sure you'll have THE BEST, THE SAME QUALITY on any PC, on any card, anywhere.

But unfortunately you've shown you're against any option that modifies your "views of the things" so i have not so much hope you can consider it.

leeperry

14th April 2007, 11:28

hey 3ngel you sound quite upset :D

I'm willing to give up some color wash up for supreme smoothness and GPU acceleration anytime ;)

if I do the conversion with ffdshow in RGB32HQ, I can't upscale to 720p in lanzcos 8 passes while maintaining the "basic" sharpen filter of KMP(this thing turns SD to HD, no kidding!)

Leak

14th April 2007, 12:12

That's a good starting point and a good principle, BUT the error for me lies in the fact that you use d3d to perform operations like scaling,
Ugh... Haali's Renderer is all about doing scaling and colorspace conversion on the GPU - what's left if he throws all that out?

To answer that myself: nothing that couldn't be done by using ffdshow and it's YUY->RGB conversion with VMR/Overlay Mixer, so why bother at all then?

np: New Order - True Faith (Singles (Disc 1))

3ngel

14th April 2007, 14:02

Pheraps you haven't read well
One of the reasons I've written this piece of software was a desire to have stable and consistent colorspace conversion that doesn't depend on driver defaults
That means that haali intent is to be INDEPENDENT from GPU, (at this moment only on colorspace) not the opposite.
And concerning all the rest, i hate FFdshow, and from what i remember from the first posts of this thread (when haali was all cpu without gpu) the color conversion was better in HR than ffdshow.

KoD

14th April 2007, 14:04

I see lots of nonsense from people that don't know much about color spaces and video material, what decoders do, what renderers do and how to properly deinterlace and resize. To this there's the ever present "I'm a consumer, listen to me !" attitude many have with software that is provided freely for their use. Please stop. If you really want to know what to do, start reading instead of making theories on how it works and how it should work. If you want a good book on this topic, there's Charles Poynton's Digital Video and HDTV Algorithms and interfaces (Morgan Kaufmann).

Haali, it looks like HDTV (broadcasts and HD DVD and Bluray authored discs) are using BT.709 instead of 601 for color conversion. Furthermore, BT.709 is being pushed to be used in authoring SD TV and DVD video material too. Would you add this new mode as well ? Maybe giving the user an option list in the filter configure panel, with:
- always use 601 color matrix
- always use 709 color matrix
- auto (chooses 601 or 709 based on the input material horizontal resolution: if it's 720 or higher, then it assumes HD material and uses 709, if it's lower than 720 then it assumes SD and uses 601)

The option to manually set the renderer to use 601 or 709 is there to allow people to use other resizers (like ffdshow) on SD video to horizontal resolutions higher than 720 and still be abe to use the proper color conversion (601).

Leak

14th April 2007, 14:11

That means that haali intent is to be INDEPENDENT from GPU, (at this moment only on colorspace) not the opposite.
He meant independent from any ideas the driver has about (mis-)doing colorspace conversions.

Doing the colorspace conversion as a shader program cuts that out entirely, as pixel shaders simply perform math operations on pixels, not colorspace conversions per se. Thus whatever the driver thinks that a correct colorspace conversion is doesn't even come into play here... and video frames that get uploaded as textures don't get color converted by the driver either.

np: New Order - Waiting For The Sirens' Call (Singles (Disc 2))

Haali

14th April 2007, 14:51

Indeed, the image data is uploaded to the video card as RGBA textures even if it's actually YUV, and is converted using shaders.

While driver writers are known to alter shaders to achieve better benchmarks, I don't think it happens here. Also there is a simple way to check conversion results: taking a snapshot in MPC downloads converted image back from video card. You can open that in any editor and check the levels.

As for using BT.709, I'll probably add that in the next release.

leeperry

14th April 2007, 18:12

so the colors ain't exactly the same in HR and FFD coz one is using BT.601 and the other one BT.709 ?

indeed my bluray rips don't look as good as my DVD/DVDRip's ;)

aydc

15th April 2007, 17:52

I'm trying to solve the blockiness in Haali Renderer that popped up recently and refuses to go away no matter what I do. Every image is blocky, everything looks like I'm watching a 320x240 movie on 1600x1200 with no interpolation.

My question is, could it be caused by the 3d settings in nvidia control panel. I mean, do settings like antialiasing and texture filtering make a difference on what Haali renders?

Leak

15th April 2007, 17:59

My question is, could it be caused by the 3d settings in nvidia control panel. I mean, do settings like antialiasing and texture filtering make a difference on what Haali renders?
Well, since the Haali Renderer operates on textures (which would indicate a "yes") you might want to set all 3D options to the highest quality settings and turn off anti-aliasing...

IIRC you can just create a 3D profile for your media player.

But why not simply try this out? :)

np: Richie Hawtin - The Tunnel (DE9 - Transitions)

leeperry

15th April 2007, 18:07

Haali

16th April 2007, 05:05

aydc

16th April 2007, 20:21

aydc: Of course, HR is affected just like any other 3d app. In paticular, forcing AA in the drivers control panel is known to cause image corruption, so don't do that, and leave default settings as application controlled.

Last night I had to reinstall Windows, which of course returned everything back to normal. Good news: blockiness is gone. Bad news: I couldn't test if I could solve it by returning to default settings on nvidia control panel. :)

aydc

28th April 2007, 18:41

New version out!!

# 28/04/2007

* Fixed items:
o Fixed a regression in PS timestamps calculation.

# 27/04/2007

* New Features:
o Added support for DTS in TS stream type 0x82.
o Added support for more LPCM types in TS.
o Added workaround for some broken TS files.
o Added support for BT.709 color conversion in the renderer.
o Added support for full luma range in the renderer.
o Added workaround for filters that don't send NewSegment to the muxer.
* Fixed Items:
o Use WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE for multichannel audio.
o Fixed MPEG-2 in TS/PS parsing.
o Fixed splitter stalling on very high bitrate files.
o Fixed parsing of wrapped PTS in TS/PS.

leeperry

29th April 2007, 14:04

w00t, my favorite renderer is just getting better and better, thanks for the heads up!

so should i pick BT.601 or 709 ?!?!!? :confused:

709 is for DVD and HDTV, and 601 for all the rest ?
I'm colorblind :D

Also, XViD from ffdshow looks better in TV range on HR............but CoreAVC(with the "convert Tv scale to PC" unchecked) looks better in PC range :(

so should I check this option in CoreAVC and go with TV range ?!?!!?!?

Thanks!

leeperry

29th April 2007, 15:05

from what this page says :
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/65/855228

I should stick to BT.709, enable TV>PC in CoreAVC and force PC range in HR ? :)

but it seems that MPEG1/2 decoders output 16-235 :(

aydc

30th April 2007, 11:42

709 looks much better to me. To compare, make screenshots of the same frame with Printscreen key and save as BMP. Then view them full screen back to back. 709 gives more vibrant colors on my system.

KoD

30th April 2007, 12:13

All those Bt.xxx options matter only when you are feeding Haali's renderer with YUY2 (if you feed it with RGB32, there's no color conversion to be performed).

It's very simple:

• for material that was encoded using BT.709, that is real HDTV tv broadcasts, Blu-Ray and HDDVD, either original or ripped, use BT.709.
• for material that was encoded using BT.601, like normal (not HDTV) TV broadcasts, DVD, or DVD rips, use BT.601. Digital TV broadcasts, even if not HDTV, might use BT.709 though.

All TV, DVD, Blu-Ray, HDDVD, and any encodes from such material you may have done yourself where you have not explicitly converted to PC scale, use TV color range. So you should let "Luma range" to TV(16-235).

Any encode you may have done yourself that used some captured sequence from a game (Quake, Half-life, whatever) or the encode of a render from a 3D modelling application (a render from Maya, 3DStudio, etc.) has a full PC range, so when playing it select "Luma range" PC(0-255).

If I said something wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me. ^^

ExtraEye

30th April 2007, 12:27

KoD - thx for the info. but what about if i output the video to a TV?
BTW: I see no difference between 709 and 601.

KoD

30th April 2007, 13:06

KoD - thx for the info. but what about if i output the video to a TV?
BTW: I see no difference between 709 and 601.

That "Luma range" setting seems to control wether 16-235 to 0-255 conversion is to be performed or not, like this:
- if "Luma range" is set to TV(16-235), then the renderer will do a conversion: 16-235 input -> 0-255 output, respectively 0-255 input -> 0-255 output but the original 0-16 and 235-255 info in the input is lost
- if "Luma range" is set to PC(0-255), then the renderer will not perform any conversion, so the range that is on input gets on output: 16-235 input -> 16-235 output, respectively 0-255 input -> 0-255 output

Or at least that's how I guess it works. Only Haali knows.

You will probably want to select "Luma range" PC(0-255), so that the renderer will not mess with the input range. Obviously, if what I guessed above is right, then any encode that uses the full 0-255 range will not be viewed properly on your TV screen, as the TV screen expects useful luma information to be contained only in the 16-235 interval.

Haali

30th April 2007, 20:00

Remeber, the frame buffer on the video card is RGB, and all these conversions in the renderer apply only to source video when it is placed into framebuffer. The FB is always RGB even if you use TV-out or whatever video output. The video card hw then converts it back to YUV for output if you have a TV connected. So all this talk about TV-out is really pointless unless you know for certain how this RGB->YUV step is implemented. My guess is that you certainly don't need to limit your *RGB* values to 16-235, as the TV encoder on the video card likely assumes normal computer RGB content. But to verify that you'd need a TV Scope to measure actual analog levels.

leeperry

30th April 2007, 20:55

709 looks much better to me. To compare, make screenshots of the same frame with Printscreen key and save as BMP. Then view them full screen back to back. 709 gives more vibrant colors on my system.

actually I can't capture 709........it looks like 601 in my captures..

709 makes the colors more vibrant indeed......but somewhat different :devil:

red looks more orange, and green looks darker...

All those Bt.xxx options matter only when you are feeding Haali's renderer with YUY2 (if you feed it with RGB32, there's no color conversion to be performed).

All TV, DVD, Blu-Ray, HDDVD, and any encodes from such material you may have done yourself where you have not explicitly converted to PC scale, use TV color range. So you should let "Luma range" to TV(16-235).

yes i output YUY2 to HR, that's the whole point :D

My guess is that you certainly don't need to limit your *RGB* values to 16-235, as the TV encoder on the video card likely assumes normal computer RGB content.

it seems that avi/mkv output to 0-255 as expected, but mpeg1/2 decorders output to 16-235

if that was possible to switch between 601/709 and TV/PC from the MKV tasktray icon and through hotkeys like CTRL+F2/CTRL+F3, that'd be so awesome :devil:

it takes several clicks to switch it in the HR configuration, and the window comes in the way ;)

anyway, HR is my number one renderer, and more than ever......Haali spacibo ;)

Haali

30th April 2007, 21:33

it seems that avi/mkv output to 0-255 as expected, but mpeg1/2 decorders output to 16-235

These figures are quite strange. Are you sure all your mkv/avi use a different luma range? I personally see fullrange content very rarely, if any.

leeperry

1st May 2007, 00:57

gee, you're losing me here again :D

I've got several bluray/HD-DVD rips in VC1 that I use for tests, and some XViD too

and when I check 16-235, my movies look too dark, the blacks are burned......

I will run more tests then :D

could you add the 601/709 and TV/PC in the MKV tasktray please ?
and some hotkeys would be awesome too........thanks for all your hard work ;)

aydc

1st May 2007, 13:04

actually I can't capture 709........it looks like 601 in my captures..

Don't use player programs' internal frame capture shortcuts. Watch the video full screen and use the PrintScreen key on your keyboard. Then save the image using an image editor like paint. This way you'll capture exactly what you see, so you'll see the difference between the two modes clearly.

By the way, thanks to Haali for listening to user feedback here and giving us these options. Now only if he could add Lanzcos resizing and Brightness/Contrast controls..... :)

leeperry

1st May 2007, 14:12

Now only if he could add Lanzcos resizing and Brightness/Contrast controls..... :)

if you upscale in lanzcos in your player(I do it in KMPlayer) or in ffdshow, the internal resize of HR is bypassed.

KMPlayer also enables you to change the brightness/contrasts controls in realtime, but I never use it ;)

concerning 601/709, 709 makes the skin tones much more realistic, less grey-ish ;)

leeperry

2nd May 2007, 01:13

btw I can't skip in MPEG-PS files if I choose Haali's Splitter........and I dunno if there's any advantage to use it for AVI either ?!

aydc

2nd May 2007, 06:14

if you upscale in lanzcos in your player(I do it in KMPlayer) or in ffdshow, the internal resize of HR is bypassed.

That depends on CPU however. On a Core2Duo 6600, ffdshow takes 40% CPU power to resize small movies to 1680x1050. Haali uses GPU instead so it would be much more efficient.

MatMaul

2nd May 2007, 06:36

btw I can't skip in MPEG-PS files if I choose Haali's Splitter........and I dunno if there's any advantage to use it for AVI either ?!
same here.
I select MPEG PS when I install and the splitter don't want to be used with ps file.

KoD

2nd May 2007, 11:42

How about splitter related issues be reported in the "Alternative Matroska splitter" thread and keep this one only for video renderer issues ? My guess is that the PS and TS splitting is still not complete. Another issue might be that Haali's splitter is not very tolerant with broken ps and ts files.

leeperry

2nd May 2007, 17:11

That depends on CPU however. On a Core2Duo 6600, ffdshow takes 40% CPU power to resize small movies to 1680x1050. Haali uses GPU instead so it would be much more efficient.

well yes, and no.
I use the "basic" sharpen filter of KMP.
KMP upscales to 720p in lanzcos 10 passes, then processes the SHARPEN filter.
I prefer to get SHARPEN on 720p, than on sh*tty XViD SD(a la 624*320) resolutions ;)

same here.
I select MPEG PS when I install and the splitter don't want to be used with ps file.

I give up on the MPEG PS support, it just doesn't work.
I was wondering if there was any point to use it for AVI mainly ;)

Isochroma

3rd May 2007, 03:00

I'm considering switching from VMR9 renderless to Haali's renderer due to its superior quality, but need to know which nVidia (no ATI cards, thanks) will be fast enough to display 720p on a 1600x1200 monitor. The requirements:

1. AGP (my mainboard uses it)

2. Fanless (home theatre setup, noise is very important)

3. reasonable power consumption

My current card is a fanless FX5200 AGP 8x, and it is not fast enough to scale DVD resolution to even 1366x768, never mind 1600x1200. All driver settings are at max performance, and AGP Fast Writes are enabled.

My CPU is an Athlon XP Barton running @ 2.33 Ghz. CPU isn't a limiting factor for playback of up to 720p AVC on my machine, using VMR9 renderless.

In light of this, I'm hoping people in this thread could contribute their experiences about how well their cards work with Haali's renderer (please include the make/mode/bus), thanks!

leeperry

3rd May 2007, 12:25

you don't need a superfast videocard to run it and your CPU is really slow so you'll get better results anyhow...just try it ;)

Isochroma

3rd May 2007, 18:53

@leeperry: "just try it" doesn't tell me what card to buy, and "your CPU is really slow" is factually incorrect.

Haali

3rd May 2007, 19:11

I've tested it on a 6800LE, and it was probably overkill for simple video rendering. I think something like a 6600 card might work fine too.

Isochroma

3rd May 2007, 19:33

Excellent, thank you Haali for the prompt reply. My goal is minimum power consumption for required functionality. I'll probably go for a 6800-class GPU if that's the case.

leeperry

3rd May 2007, 19:50

oh really....I got a 6800GT/P4 3.4EE/2gigs dual channel, it works like a champ :D

your CPU is indeed slow.......to do 720p lanzcos update, sharpen, etc....

if you balance the load on your GPU, you might get luckier ;)

wozio

3rd May 2007, 21:44

My goal is minimum power consumption for required functionality. I'll probably go for a 6800-class GPU if that's the case.
If power consuption is priority I think some medium level but from 7 line instead of top from older 6 line, for example 7600gt. I have agp version of radeon x1650 pro which is slower than 7600gt and it handles resizing from 1440x1080i50 to 1360x768 without any problem. When output resolution is 1920x1080 then it starts to slow down but remember, this is 50 fps. Some lower resolution 60fps clips are perfectly smooth even at 1920x1080.

leeperry

3rd May 2007, 22:31

are you guys sure that your GPU is limiting you ?!
you need some bad ass CPU(C2D) to handle fullHD decoding...

Peuj

4th May 2007, 17:14

Hi Haali,

I have a problem with you renderer. When I try to watch the following video on MPC or KMPlayer nothing happens. There is no sound, no images and no CPU but it's like the video is playing because the progress bar is moving.

If I switch to WMR9 renderer I don't have the issue.
I use the latest Haali renderer.
I have a FX5200 Video Card with the latest driver.

http://www.1-clickshare.com/download.php?file=668db2ff0aa53d51d566a71bbf49f0fb_517

Thanks

Kado

4th May 2007, 18:50

@Peuj
That file plays just fine on my system, using latest MPC, ffdshow rev1125 (using wmv9 codec instead of libavcodec), and latest haali renderer.

Pentium D @ 3.6ghz
GF 6800GS

Peuj

5th May 2007, 13:02

@Peuj
That file plays just fine on my system, using latest MPC, ffdshow rev1125 (using wmv9 codec instead of libavcodec), and latest haali renderer.

Pentium D @ 3.6ghz
GF 6800GS

OK Thanks I'll check which codec I'm using but I have too the latest MPC and ffdshow.
Maybe it's again something wrong with my FX5200 Video Card and Haali renderer :)

aydc

5th May 2007, 15:26

My problem with image blockiness with Haali is getting on my nerves. To better explain the problem, I made comparison screenshots. Please click on the following thumbnail to see the big image:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/4482/comparisonwd6.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comparisonwd6.jpg)

This is a 512 x 216, 23.978 fps DivX movie. This problem can be seen with all movies, however with low res movies like this one it's more apparent. Sharpness slider must be at minimum to see this clearly. If I set sharpness to maximum, the blockiness decreases, but it's still there.

Any ideas how to solve it? Can you please open a low res movie, set the sharpness slider to minimum an tell me if you experience anything like this?

Leak

5th May 2007, 15:35

Any ideas how to solve it? Can you please open a low res movie, set the sharpness slider to minimum an tell me if you experience anything like this?
What's your graphics card? Have you set all it's 3D quality options to the max in it's control panel?

np: Pole - Schöner Land (Steingarten)

aydc

5th May 2007, 20:19

What's your graphics card? Have you set all it's 3D quality options to the max in it's control panel?

I'm using an nvidia 7900 GS. I've tried various sets of drivers on both XP and Vista. I always get the blocky picture. I played a lot with driver settings with no result.

Rash

6th May 2007, 04:53

Hey guys. I just did some testing on Haali again and I must say, it is great! Not so long ago I tested it and posted my results in this thread but I remember I still preferred VMR7 (XP Default). But now Haali is great (not the same issues I had back then) and superb image quality! :D I'm on Vista.

Anyway, I have what may be a very stupid question. Is it possible to make WMP and Windows Media Center to use Haali Renderer? A registry key, maybe? I'm having an awful problem with WMP inserting gray (16) bars in order to compensate for the TV YUV range. It is a nice feature to hide the bars and produce a homogeneous image, but since I can correct this problem on ffshow, the feature adds a problem. Have a look (this was taken with ffdshow levels and RGB HQ output).
http://rash.apanela.com/images/lost_color.png
Too bad I can't use PureVideo with Haali, though. :( PureVideo produces awsome quality with the infamous TV color range.

Thanks a lot for your help. And thank you Haali for this great renderer. ;)

Kado

6th May 2007, 13:03

@Rash
KMP Player has a system filter manager that can change filter priority system wide. You should try that.

Seb.26

6th May 2007, 13:38

aydc

6th May 2007, 16:06

First : why colors aren't same in both pictures ?!

VMR9 is having the usual 0-255 vs 16-235 problems. That has nothing to do with jagged edges in the picture. Now that is cleared, do you have a solution?

Rash

6th May 2007, 17:17

I will give it a try Kado, thank you.

Humm, just one more question (in the wrong thread, I know). Can I force MPC to use PowerDVD video decoding filters? If I can I might get PureVideo with Haali to work together. :)

Seb.26

6th May 2007, 17:38

VMR9 is having the usual 0-255 vs 16-235 problems. That has nothing to do with jagged edges in the picture. Now that is cleared, do you have a solution?
What is the frame format entering HR & VRM9 ? ( YU2 I guess )
( if you use FFDShow, please activate OSD and report data ;) ... the same in HR :) )

Kado

6th May 2007, 21:09

DeathWolf

6th May 2007, 21:22

leeperry

7th May 2007, 01:23

I got a 6800Ultra with the latest official XP drivers....I've never encountered pixelisation...I don't watch super lowres videos either ;)

and I really love the BT.709 option, it makes the colors sparkling.........kick ass :D

Rash

7th May 2007, 02:12

@Rash
Yes you can force it, go to options, external filters, add them and put them in your preferred order then click on prefer for those filters, remember to put hardware acceleration enabled in the filter properties.
Haali renderer does not support DXVA so PureVideo cannot be used. VMR9 supports DXVA 1.0 and EVR is supposed to support DXVA 2.0 eventually.

Well, I know. But I can at least have some deinterlacing done in the GPU. Well, I did it and it is working great! :D Thank you. I just couldn't get the PowerDVD Audio decoder to work on MPC. MPC reports a "Macrovision failed" on a region 0 DVD I have. It works on KMPlayer, though. But on KMPlayer I can't get PowerDVD and Haali to work together. :(

aydc

7th May 2007, 17:51

What is the frame format entering HR & VRM9 ? ( YU2 I guess )
( if you use FFDShow, please activate OSD and report data ;) ... the same in HR :) )

Input colorspace: YUY2
I tried changing the output colorspace with ffdshow before feeding it to Haali, but no colorspace I tried makes any difference to the blocky image.

aydc

7th May 2007, 17:52

This sounds to me like the resize method used is different.
Did you take the screenshot while resized?

Yeah, I made the screenshot with MediaPlayerClassic at full screen mode. Returning to 100% size windowed mode doesn't make a difference however.

chros

9th May 2007, 09:06

I have uploaded an xvid-avi chunk (1.5 MB) with the renderer is mistaken. (VMR9 renderless is OK.)
http://www.mytempdir.com/1322774

http://yogurtrat.com/avatars/thumbs/972snapshot20070509095909.jpg (http://yogurtrat.com/avatars/viewer.php?id=972snapshot20070509095909.jpg)

Peuj

9th May 2007, 10:03

Hi,

I don't reproduce your problem with the latest HR,ffdshow and MPC builds.

3ngel

9th May 2007, 11:51

Once in a while i came back to say that the "Desynch" problem with "Bob deinterlancing" (tested with every possible decoder that do the Bdeint), and the "Huffy YUV" black screen is still here
:D

chros

9th May 2007, 15:18

I don't reproduce your problem with the latest HR,ffdshow and MPC builds.
Ahaaa! Thanks for the reply!

The problem related to ffdshow (I'm using ffdshow_rev1133_20070504_clsid.exe): if The Raw Video is set to All Supported at the Codecs, the problem occurs. So I don't know if it's the fault of Haali's renderer or ffdshow ... (But strange is that VMR is OK.)
(tried several MPC builds (the official 6.4.9.0 too), latest haali's package).

Rash

9th May 2007, 19:34

I just couldn't get the PowerDVD Audio decoder to work on MPC. MPC reports a "Macrovision failed" on a region 0 DVD I have.
In fact, the problem is related to Haali Media Splitter. If I choose any other video renderer both PowerDVD and MPC's internal decoder work. If I choose Haali, MPC gives me "DVD: Macrovision Fail" error. That's with a region 0 DVD I authored myself. That's too bad. :( Not only I don't get Haali's awesome quality but also I don't get the PC extended YUV range. So it seems there is no way of watching DVDs with black blacks on Vista right now. :(

Is anyone having this problem too? I can't test on KMPlayer right now because KMPlayer is not outputting DVD to Haali due to a bug (it outputs to Overlay no matter what renderer I choose).

Thanks a lot guys. I'm in love with Haali's Renderer, it would be sad if I couldn't use it to watch DVDs.

KoD

10th May 2007, 10:40

Maybe that's one of Vista's playback of protected content policies: it will only work if the video renderer is signed by Microsoft or something like that.

I still wait for all the laments that will come when people will realize using postprocessors like ffdshow will not be possible on Vista when playing protected content. People tend to complain only when hitting a wall, lol.

Rash

10th May 2007, 17:37

Yeah, well, or maybe it is just a bias you have against Vista. :(

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1320/mpchaalipurevideoxp5.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mpchaalipurevideoxp5.jpg)

I think it is a configuration entry somewhere that is blocking it, maybe it is a MPC configuration, maybe it is a PowerDVD filter configuration (then you really wouldn't be able to help me, ok), maybe it is a Haali configuration.

But that's alright. I won't ask for help anymore. ;)

leeperry

11th May 2007, 21:21

actually WinDVD 8's DVD decoder is a lot sharper than Cyberlink's

I use it with KMPlayer on XP SP2, and most of the time it connects with HR........but sometimes it just refuses :mad:

might be a Macrovision issue as you stated, I guess it'd need some tricks from HR to tell DVD decoders that it's compliant :D

I've tried several DVD's, all my shrunk DVD's work fine with WinDVD 8 video decoder/KMPlayer/HR.....

..and all my original hollywood DVD's revert to "Overlay Mixer"(without TV>PC conversion, so the image is too dark) or refuse to play(if I disable the dreaded "Overlay Mixer" with RADLIGHT FILTER MANAGER).

we'd need some tool like anydvd/dvd region free that could kill macrovision in real time.........but I'm afraid that doesn't exist....

Haali, could you please look into making HR macrovision compliant ?
or better.....make it lie about it :D

Rash

12th May 2007, 07:50

actually WinDVD 8's DVD decoder is a lot sharper than Cyberlink's
Humm, that's interesting. Too bad WinDVD 8 Audio filters suck. 2.0 DTS? Please. :( They used to have better audio decoding.

I use it with KMPlayer on XP SP2, and most of the time it connects with HR........but sometimes it just refuses :mad:
Humm, but isn't it supposed to be Vista's DRM fault? As Kod stated?

I've tried several DVD's, all my shrunk DVD's work fine with WinDVD 8 video decoder/KMPlayer/HR.....
Lucky you. I can't make KMPlayer throw DVD video to any other renderer but Overlay. So no TV->PC convertion and bad image quality. :( (KMPlayer developers said it is a bug, what version are you using?)

Haali, could you please look into making HR macrovision compliant ?
or better.....make it lie about it :D
I don't think he will. :(

leeperry

12th May 2007, 07:58

KMPlayer's developer is a d*ck.......he likes to tell users to FO........I suspect he only cares about korean users....

I've been using KMP for a loooooong time, and after I reported many bugs........all I got was a ban on his forum :o

there's an option at the top of the general options where you can choose the renderer for DVD's, it overrides the video output options.

I use the Sonic Audio decoder(that even support EAC3), I agree Windvd8's audio decoder kinda sucks.

well if we ask nicely, maybe Haali can make HR fool DVD decoders that it's macrovision compliant :D

and some hot keys/options in the taskray to toggle BT601/709 and PC/TV range would sure be totally tits too :P

Rash

12th May 2007, 18:02

That's great Lee, but where is this option? I couldn't find it. Thanks. ;)
Well, it was Z, a moderator at the KMPlayer's forum, that told me it is a bug. So I'll wait for the next beta and see if they fixed it. Besides, I am having some other problems running KMPlayer on Vista. I really liked KMPlayer, but I'll stick to MPC that is perfect so far.

(Sonic Audio decoder? You mean, the www.sonic.com ? How about we continue these offtopic discussions somewhere else? :))

As for the TV->PC range, there is something interesting here. When I set the TV option I get the full PC range (0-255). When I set the PC option I get the reduced TV (16-235) range. :D I'm not sure if this is a bug on Haali, if this is correct, by design, or if this has something to do with the drivers on my video card. :D

KoD

13th May 2007, 12:37

Read my above posts on how the TV - PC range option works.

oddball

13th May 2007, 17:22

leeperry

13th May 2007, 20:20

ok Rash, problem solved with KMP/HR on my side........it was a KMP bug :D

my DVD's have never looked so sexy ;)

Rash

15th May 2007, 06:09

Lucky you. KMP hangs on Vista with DVD + Haali. So maybe these two will never work toghether here. :(

cyberbeing

15th May 2007, 08:08

I have a problem using Haali 1.7.75.20. In the configuration under subtitles I have the following in the Audio and subtitles section.

jpn,eng;eng,off;

This used to work and only displayed English subtitles for anime shows and not for English spoken movies etc. But now it ignores it and displays English subtitles in English spoken movies no matter what player I use. Yes I know I can manually turn the subtitles off but that is not the point. This should work. The subtitles are in MKV containers and are correctly tagged as English when I check in MKVMerge GUI.
First the version 1.7.75.20 is dated 02/13/2007. You should download and install the latest version (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/MatroskaSplitter.exe) from Haali's websited dated 4/28/2007 to see if that fixed it.

I tested this out on a couple MKVs with english audio and english subs and with the setting you listed the english subs were not displayed (worked as it should).

You said that the subtitles were tagged as english but that wouldn't really matter in this scenario. That "eng,off" setting means if the audio was defined as english then no subtitles will be displayed. Was the audio stream defined as english? If it is then maybe you should upload a sample somewhere so Haali can track down the bug.

Note to Moderator: This should be moved to the Alternative Matroska Splitter (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=80762) topic

Rash

15th May 2007, 15:43

Read my above posts on how the TV - PC range option works.
I did it. Thanks Kod. ;)

Rash

16th May 2007, 06:11

Haali, could you please look into making HR macrovision compliant ?
or better.....make it lie about it :D
Today I've set ffdshow to decode all uncompressed formats to test this Macrovision thing. So ffdshow sucessfully sits between Cyberlink's decoder and the renderer. But it still doesn't work with Haali's. :(

So obviously the video is not being real-time encoded to Macrovision anywhere in the chain (and as I said earlier, I'm using a region 0 DVD).

Here is proof of what once worked. :(
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1320/mpchaalipurevideoxp5.th.jpg (http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mpchaalipurevideoxp5.jpg)

Rash

16th May 2007, 06:26

Unbelievable! (I'm so sorry for flooding this topic)

Looking at my screenshot I had an idea, to remove Cyberlink's audio from the graph. Voilá! So maybe it is Cyberlink's audio decoder checking which video renderer I am using? This is NUTS!

Anyway, it is working with ffdshow's audio filter now. Well, I think PowerDVD audio is better, but it seems I can't have everything. So I choose video. ;)

leeperry

16th May 2007, 09:27

well ;)

foxyshadis

16th May 2007, 11:00

just use Sonic Audio Decoder from Sonic.CinePlayer.HD.DVD.Decoder.v4.2

check out google ;)

That's totally uncalled for and in violation of our rules. You should know by now how often people are warned away from warez here. Struck for rule 6.

leeperry

16th May 2007, 20:55

oops edited, sorry for that!!!

moshmothma

20th May 2007, 23:31

Lucky you. KMP hangs on Vista with DVD + Haali. So maybe these two will never work toghether here. :(

That's a KMP problem. The author is aware of the KMP, Haali and DVD. Will probably be fixed in an upcoming version of KMP.

Peuj

25th May 2007, 11:01

Hi Haali,

Just to regroup some issue I have with my FX5200 and the Haali renderer:

1 - Black screen during playback:

With some videos I have a black screen during the playback and I have notice that it's always happen with the videos of a specific size.

With a size too large or too small the renderer cannot work:
It seems it's only based on the vertical size.
If the vertical size is set to 241 or under then I have black screen.
If the vertical size is set to 1025 or upper then I have black screen.

too large:
http://www.1-clickshare.com/download.php?file=668db2ff0aa53d51d566a71bbf49f0fb_517

too small:
http://www.1-clickshare.com/download.php?file=9b72ba1e4badb66ab76bcdf85d19d032_368

2 - Another Issue:

When I play this sample using Haali renderer the sound is not sync.
Download: http://www.mytempdir.com/1335646
Password: doom9

I have the issue with MPC+Haali renderer+ffdshow and to solve my problem I have to uncheck "Allow output format changes during playback" in ffdshow.

I have the problem with KMP but there is no uncheck "Allow output format changes during playback" like in ffdshow.

Thanks

leeperry

25th May 2007, 18:32

hey guys, I got a question about BT.601/709

so decoding 601 in 709 is not a good idea after all :

If you decode 601 encoded signals with a 709 decoder then the green amplitude is reduced by 15.5% so it looks darker, (which you may be interpreting as more saturated - it isn't, it's just darker) and the red amplitude is increased by about 9% and about 10% green is added to the red, so it looks lighter and is more orange (it really isn't less saturated, it's a different hue.)"

and indeed, the red looks more greenish and less saturated, and the green is darker, which kills some contrast.

what about the opposite ? what's the drawback of decoding 709 in 601 ? how can I find out if that's the case ?

Thanks,

amt

25th May 2007, 19:14

what about the opposite ? what's the drawback of decoding 709 in 601 ? how can I find out if that's the case ?
You can play around with the Color Bar Patterns available on http://www.w6rz.net and see for yourself how it's affected by different combinations of 601 and 709 conversions.

leeperry

25th May 2007, 20:00

w00t thanks, I'll check it out!

if it does the opposite of 601>709, it would make the green lighter, and the red darker and less greenish.......I just ran a test on a HDTV file, it seems to be the case.

anyway, Haali could you please set up hot keys(like CTRL+F4/F5) to switch between 601/709 and PC/TV range ?
and options in the MKV splitter tasktray would be awesome too!!!!!

DGIndex(File->Preview) is able to tell if the colorimetry of a MPEG2 file is 601 or 709, any chance of having HR finding it out by himself ? that would be the shiznit :D

Thanks for making perfect software, this rules!! :D

leeperry

26th May 2007, 17:48

another thing, could Haali add 13-235>0-255 conversion ?

because many DVD's actually have data between 13 and 16.

here's the proof from a PAL DVD :

16-235 > 0-255 conversion :
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6430/nolevellq9.png

13-235 > 0-255 conversion :
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4776/level13235ky9.png

many more DVD's have this problem, like Terminator 3, The Village, etc....

some guy is making a custom version of ffdshow that actually detects how low the black goes then converts on the fly to PC range......any chance of seeing this feature in HR ? together with 601/709 detection, that would kick major ass!!!!!!!! :D

Peuj

26th May 2007, 18:35

some guy is making a custom version of ffdshow that actually detects how low the black goes then converts on the fly to PC range......

Can you give a link for that? I'm curious about it.

Thanks

leeperry

26th May 2007, 19:44

I dearly hope you can understand french :D

the issue is being discussed in this thread :
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=170799037#170799037

and the name of the guy who's modding ffdshow with this feature is Seb26...........it's in early beta stage at this time : http://membres.lycos.fr/sebfr26/PCHC/Download_FFDShowSeb.htm

KoD

27th May 2007, 09:16

Having signals go lower that 16 is expected as well as higher than 235. It has to do with the fact that sharp filtering of signals (like you would want) and its manipulation is very hard for equipment that process such analog signals. (yeah, it comes back to limitations of analog equipment) But still, all useful information is to be considered the one inside the 16-235 range.

Peuj

27th May 2007, 09:40

Leak

27th May 2007, 10:47

and the name of the guy who's modding ffdshow with this feature is Seb26...........it's in early beta stage at this time : http://membres.lycos.fr/sebfr26/PCHC/Download_FFDShowSeb.htm
Am I the only one thinking here that he should be making code diffs available alongside his ax file?

np: Vladislav Delay - Wanted To (Kill) (Whistleblower)

leeperry

27th May 2007, 11:42

well call the FBI ;)

anyway, I use DGIndex to find out MPEG1/2 colorspaces(File>Preview), and all the MPEG1 files are actually BT.470-2

it's being discussed here :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=101482

so yeah, automatic detection for colorspace and range in HR would be a lifesaver to ensure 100% accurate rendering........which is what we all crave :D

edit : ok 470-2 is the former version of 601........but still ;)

leeperry

27th May 2007, 12:15

Peuj

27th May 2007, 13:53

Am I the only one thinking here that he should be making code diffs available alongside his ax file?

np: Vladislav Delay - Wanted To (Kill) (Whistleblower)

Yep maybe he didn't think about it and we could simply ask him (I know he's reading this forum). Or maybe he's waiting for a more stable version?

The_Keymaker

27th May 2007, 19:22

Forgive me if the issue I'm about to raise has already been addressed.

Anyway, I like the Haali renderer, but when I use it I experience A/V sync issues compared to VMR9.

I've adjusted the frames and buffer numbers but it doesn't seem to solve the problem. Is there something else I'm missing?

My system is:
C2D E6300
2Gig Ram
nVidia 8600GT
Vista 32 OS

Any help solving this would be greatly appreciate.

ffmpeg

29th May 2007, 01:37

Are haali splitter and haali renderer open source?

chros

29th May 2007, 09:25

@The_Keymaker: a sample file? I only encounter A/V desync when my CPU isn't enough quick (so no problem with Haali's renderer)

@ffmpeg: No, they aren't.

The_Keymaker

29th May 2007, 15:47

Chros,

I think you're right.

After installing faster memory which allowed me to Over Clock, much of the sync problems went away.

Compared to VMR9, Haali renderer is more CPU intensive. In addition, since I am not using PowerDVd 7.x to view HD-DVd, I am unable to make use of the hardware acceleration capabilities of the 8600GT card.

Seb.26

30th May 2007, 09:15

But still, all useful information is to be considered the one inside the 16-235 range.
Wrong IMO ... there are lots of DVD encoded with some (a lot?) pixels in BTB and WTW ...
( try looking "The village" ie. without BTB, blacks are really bad ... )

NB: That's why I've modify the level's filter in FFDShow for including this values during the YUV->RGB conversion ... :)

KoD

30th May 2007, 10:03

leeperry

30th May 2007, 10:47

yeah that's what I kept saying on that french forum.......it's not because some DVD's are poorly mastered that the decoding process should change....but still a auto-detection feature in HR wouldn't hurt :D

Seb.26

30th May 2007, 17:37

You know, you are defending a DVD-Video that was not mastered as it should have been, and now claiming that the DVD is fine, but the standards that should have been respected are wrong. It doesn't work that way. If you want to be dissatisfied with someone, be dissatisfied of the mastering house. (although it's still possible the encoder they used and the material they had to encode simply gave this kind of results beacuse it couldn't do better it that situation)
I suppose you also look in 4/3 all movies that have been wrongly flagged ... :rolleyes: ... lol

In any case, the fact is that there are some movies with BTB ... but i don't think it's the render's job to decide what must be displayed and what must be hidden ... a render must render ... that's all IMO ... so no probem 4 me with what HR do ... ;)

leeperry

30th May 2007, 17:46

Seb.26

30th May 2007, 18:09

well it's very nice that you modify ffdshow code but I like to use the latest official builds of ffd and most likely your modifications are not part of these.
and besides I'd love HR to do it for any kind of concent, like MPEG2 videos/AVC/etc....not just ffdshow...
you can try to use pc.601 instead of rec.601 in HR ( I saw last release offer this choice ) ... and them calibrate your screen on [16~235] instead [0~255] ... and when needed, just adjust the brightness of your screen ... so you have it for any kind of concent ... ;)

foxyshadis

31st May 2007, 05:32

but I like to use the latest official builds of ffd

The abandoned three year old one? Or clsid's and drevil's?

leeperry

31st May 2007, 07:51

cls' : http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=173941&package_id=199416&release_id=439938

Flash_Git

1st June 2007, 04:54

All of a sudden I can no longer load shaders with MPC + Haali. What could cause this?

leeperry

1st June 2007, 13:33

All of a sudden I can no longer load shaders with MPC + Haali. What could cause this?
terrorists ? :p

you can try to use pc.601 instead of rec.601 in HR ( I saw last release offer this choice ) ... and them calibrate your screen on [16~235] instead [0~255] ... and when needed, just adjust the brightness of your screen ... so you have it for any kind of concent ... ;)
AFAIK there's only rec.601 and rec.709 in HR....and besides my Sanyo Z3 is perfectly calibrated with the color.HCFR, so I can't be hassled to mess up with the brightness control all the bloody time :D

KoD

2nd June 2007, 09:45

What is pc.601 ? Never heard of it.

foxyshadis

2nd June 2007, 11:44

Avisynth's term for fullscale bt.601.

leeperry

2nd June 2007, 20:45

well the more it goes, the more I'm able to "see" if a movie is 601 or 709 not being decoded in the right colorspace.....but still some automatic detection scheme within HR would be totally tits :D

Mangix

2nd June 2007, 21:38

is Haali Renderer faster than Overlay?

kurt

2nd June 2007, 22:20

nope
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=962405#post962405

B.Slisk

3rd June 2007, 10:37

New version of Haali Media Splitter posted: http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

A change to the renderer mentioned: Fixed GetCurrentImage in the renderer so it behaves correctly when called indirectly via FGM.

Warpman

4th June 2007, 10:37

OSD seems not working in the new version

kurt

4th June 2007, 11:43

OSD is working here :)

KoD

4th June 2007, 11:47

If there's no resizing being performed (the video resolution is the same as the playback on screen resolution), there will be no OSD shown. But that was the behavior before as well. What has changed is that the OSD doesn't show the bitrate graph anymore.

chros

4th June 2007, 17:14

A change to the renderer mentioned: Fixed GetCurrentImage in the renderer so it behaves correctly when called indirectly via FGM.
What does it mean in practice?

Dethis

4th June 2007, 17:54

How can someone take a capture at the current colorspace ??.

I just checked and found that by selecting the BT.601 or BT.709 colorspace with Haali Renderer's controls i can clearly see the differences on the rendered image ... but the captured images are always the same and identical with the BT.601 one.

B.Slisk

4th June 2007, 20:02

How can someone take a capture at the current colorspace ??.Don't use the Save Image feature, take a screen shot instead.

If you press PrtScr a screen shot will be saved in the memory. Open your paint program of choice, even mspaint will do in a pinch, and paste the screen shot into a new document.

Pressing Alt+PrtScr will result in a screen shot of just the active program window. This can be used when you want to take a screen shot of the un-scaled image.

Taking screen shots using PrtScr will not work with some renderers but I know it works with Halli and VMR9 renderless .

Dethis

4th June 2007, 21:23

Don't use the Save Image feature, take a screen shot instead.

If you press PrtScr a screen shot will be saved in the memory. Open your paint program of choice, even mspaint will do in a pinch, and paste the screen shot into a new document.

Pressing Alt+PrtScr will result in a screen shot of just the active program window. This can be used when you want to take a screen shot of the un-scaled image.

Taking screen shots using PrtScr will not work with some renderers but I know it works with Halli and VMR9 renderless .

Thanks B.Slisk,
but unfortunately i only have a 1280X1024 screen while the desired image is 1920X1080 and i want it un-scaled.
In quick check even this downscaled image needed levels correction (pc->tv), while i didn't check at all for BT.709 compliancy.

mrkazador

4th June 2007, 21:30

Maybe someone could help me...
Why is it when using the Haali Video renderer in Zoom Player I only get half the resolution? ex..1280x720p is shown as 640x360. Tried different video codecs and splitters, still the same.
Tried using MPC and I get an error message:
"Could not load shader: Shader complex (jim.ro)"
If I continue and play it works perfectly fine.
Im using an x800gt with latest drivers.

foxyshadis

4th June 2007, 23:16

If you search this thread, others have had your concern before. If you really want the player to overflow the screen, just set it to 200% zoom. Or just use fullscreen and ignore the size it loads at, like everyone else. The renderer never sizes down and then back up, it always resizes only once at full quality, but it'll force it to load at a lower size than normal if it would overflow the screen otherwise.

The MPC error is odd, since x800 should have PS2 at least.

chros

5th June 2007, 08:22

Tried using MPC and I get an error message:
"Could not load shader: Shader complex (jim.ro)"
If I continue and play it works perfectly fine.
For me the same: so if you use Haali's renderer then you can't use shaders.

chros

5th June 2007, 08:45

A technical question:
I'm watching 23.976 fps progressive content on my LCD TV running on 60 Hz with your renderer.
What happens with the missing frames? Eg.: does Halli's renderer with the videocard driver automatically create a 3:2 pulldown?
And what do the other renderers (overlay mixer, VMR9 renderless)?

Thanks

Seb.26

5th June 2007, 17:25

chros

5th June 2007, 20:10

IMO : same frame is displayed twice ...
or displayed twice as long?
And what happens with the missing 12 frame? (24*2=48, 60-48=12)

Thanks

Leak

5th June 2007, 20:22

or displayed twice as long?
And what happens with the missing 12 frame? (24*2=48, 60-48=12)
Well, the next frame is drawn during the next vertical blank, to prevent tearing, so some frames will be displayed for 2 frames and some for 3 frames (probably alternating) - exactly what you wanted to do using AviSynth... :)

It all depends on how the renderer synchronizes with the screen's vertical refresh...

np: Legiac - Opaque (Mings Feaner)

aydc

5th June 2007, 21:03

nope
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=962405#post962405

I have this same problem too. Jagged edges are killing the image quality, due to broken resizing. I'm using the latest version of the renderer, latest nvidia drivers on a GeForce 8800 GTX. I had the same problem when I had a GeForce 7900 GS and so far nothing has changed. I'm amazed that such a problem could not be solved so far.

KoD

6th June 2007, 05:31

What is the resolution of the video file you are trying to play and to which resolution is it resized ? (you can see those figures enabling the OSD of Haali's renderer, for instance)

Also, grab a screenshot of that file in original resolution using ffdshow's "grab" feature. Post is as a png on sites like xs.to Let's see if the "jagged edges" are not there in the original. VMR9 likes to "smooth" the image sometimes and that's why jaggies are not that visible. A sharper resizing will show them in all their glory though.

chros

6th June 2007, 10:05

Well, the next frame is drawn during the next vertical blank, to prevent tearing, so some frames will be displayed for 2 frames and some for 3 frames (probably alternating) - exactly what you wanted to do using AviSynth... :)

It all depends on how the renderer synchronizes with the screen's vertical refresh...
Thanks. So it depends on the renderer and the videocard driver ...
At least I haven't got to play around the changefps() function in the script ... :)

aydc

6th June 2007, 19:10

nope
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=962405#post962405

What is the resolution of the video file you are trying to play and to which resolution is it resized ? (you can see those figures enabling the OSD of Haali's renderer, for instance)

Also, grab a screenshot of that file in original resolution using ffdshow's "grab" feature. Post is as a png on sites like xs.to Let's see if the "jagged edges" are not there in the original. VMR9 likes to "smooth" the image sometimes and that's why jaggies are not that visible. A sharper resizing will show them in all their glory though.

The problem is completely the same as with the screenshots that you see on the link kurt posted above, so it won't make a difference if I make another set of screenshots.

The problem is even more apparent if I set Haali's sharpness slider to minimum, so it's not about the resizing algorythm. It happens on all sorts of low res (like 320x200) videos. If the resolution is higher, the problem can't be seen easily, but it's still there if I look carefully.

obieobieobie

7th June 2007, 03:28

I'm really impressed by the progress of this renderer. I now use it all the time and have yet to see any problems. Well done, Haali! :)

ShadowVlican

7th June 2007, 05:35

I'm really impressed by the progress of this renderer. I now use it all the time and have yet to see any problems. Well done, Haali! :)
same here!

guess i'm one of the luckier ones? :devil:

Athlon64 X2 3800+
MSI 7300GT
Dell 2405FPW LCD

aydc

7th June 2007, 15:00

I've changed a few things that might fix the gf5xxx problem, please check http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/mkx.I.4.exe

Haali, while my 8800 GTX isn't GF5xxx, the symptoms are completely the same with people who you made this patch for. (Broken resizing, blocky image)

The link is dead now. Could you upload it again to let me try it?

leeperry

7th June 2007, 20:49

any chance getting a reply from Haali himself to know whether he could add 601/709 and PC/TV automatic detection ?
some DVD's actually contain valuable data <16 and >236, and some DVD's are 601, some others are 709...........so some simple auto-detection feature would be awesome.

if that's a no-no, some hotkeys and systray options to toggle these 2 options would make HR even better IMHO :)

Thanks for reading!

B.Slisk

9th June 2007, 21:52

any chance getting a reply from Haali himself
Perhaps you should try the mailing list mentioned on the Haali Media Splitter home page (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/).
Bug reports and feature requests
Please send feedback to our development mailing list at lists.matroska.org (http://lists.matroska.org/), or if you prefer web interface, at gmane (http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.multimedia.matroska.devel).

leeperry

10th June 2007, 00:30

well these are MKV lists, and besides Haali often comes around on this topic.

but I guess he doesn't care..

aydc

10th June 2007, 16:02

well these are MKV lists, and besides Haali often comes around on this topic.

but I guess he doesn't care..

Haali has programmed the best renderer on the market and he's giving it away for free. I think we should show more appreciation. He'll answer questions when he has the time. It's not like you're paying him anything.

leeperry

10th June 2007, 19:42

hummmm ? I've praised his renderer in each and every of my posts in this topic if you look well.

I am well aware that this is the best renderer around ;)

I would just appreciate a reply, but well he prolly got better things to do than answer silly questions on doom9 forum :D

chros

11th June 2007, 09:10

@Haali: I have come across a HLSL implementation of Lanzcos resize here (but maybe you already know that):
http://avisynth.org/JapanesePlugins
GPU plugins

Seb.26

11th June 2007, 10:20

Lancsoz resize done with shader could be great for sure ! :p

And more : why don't add some convolution based filter like sharp 3X3, 3D denoiser ...ect... :p

chros

11th June 2007, 13:32

Lancsoz resize done with shader could be great for sure ! :p

And more : why don't add some convolution based filter like sharp 3X3, 3D denoiser ...ect... :p
Well, it would be better that if the renderer supports eg. HLSL format based external files !
Because, in this case Haali doesn't have to program so much (of course he must make the framework), but "everyday users" can do that (like in MPC).
A couple of useful filters are already implemented, see: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=86793

Seb.26

11th June 2007, 18:02

Well, it would be better that if the renderer supports eg. HLSL format based external files !
Because, in this case Haali doesn't have to program so much (of course he must make the framework), but "everyday users" can do that (like in MPC).
A couple of useful filters are already implemented, see: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=86793
I've also wrote some shaders :
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29814317
( thanks to jim.ro for some of them )

PS: of course open this part for custom could be great ... and more : allow extern application do determine the shader applied ( 1 for SD, another for HD...ect ) ... wrote lines of ideas is far easier than lines of code !!! ;)

leeperry

12th June 2007, 01:18

Seb conjuge tes verbes bourdaÿl :D

wozio

12th June 2007, 08:29

I've also wrote some shaders :
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29814317
( thanks to jim.ro for some of them )

Little OT but since I don't know french I want to ask, which of this sharpening shaders is best? And is it possible to tweak them, adjust strenght for example? Which one is most configurable?

I would want to use these shaders in my app and maybe change them by defining parameters (mostly strenght) from application. Any tips how to do this best way?

Seb.26

12th June 2007, 11:31

Little OT but since I don't know french I want to ask, which of this sharpening shaders is best? And is it possible to tweak them, adjust strenght for example? Which one is most configurable?
I would want to use these shaders in my app and maybe change them by defining parameters (mostly strenght) from application. Any tips how to do this best way?
None is better than others (in this case, why don't just offer the best ?) ... all are differents ...

[Edit] yes, you can tweak them by adjusting constant values (the #define in the top of the filter) ... but be sure to undestand what you do ... lots of filters are convolution, so you can break the balance and produce strange result ... :D

[Edit] Try auto-translation tools, it can be usefull ... ;)

[Edit] If you need specifc filter or help about existing ones, just MP me ... :)

@leeperry: pal-temps ... celui que ça interresse : il comprend ... celui qui veut pas comprend pas ... c'est la vie ... ;)

skafidask

12th June 2007, 12:30

is it possible to include support for dxva 2.0 in this renderer like with evr in vista?? from what i know dxva 2.0 is supported both in directshow and MFT.
Maybe it is time for some people to start thinking MFT since from what microsoft says it is a much better platform from directshow. Are there any sample codes for player,codecs,renderers using MFT i wouldn't mind giving it a try since from what i see nobody is doing it yet.

SealTooGreat

15th June 2007, 23:30

Here's Recode's MP4 with mp4box's PAR applied (http://www.mytempdir.com/1353087)

Haali,
mpc+haali renderer can not display this sample at the correct aspect ratio, but with overlay everything is fine.
VLC and gmplayer are also fine. for more info see tread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=126831).

Flash_Git

16th June 2007, 11:26

i am still having a problem with playing dvd's with MPC + haali renderer. when i play the VOBs, or any file, it works fine. but when i open the dvd as a whole, mpc crashes after i try to seek

dscaler as the decoder. all is well when i change to overlay/vmr. this happens wit every dvd :(

I have this problem as well. DVD menus and things are okay, it's just when an actual title is played - black screen, wrong size and aduio only.

Tima

17th June 2007, 21:10

There's a problem with new version of Renderer. For example I have three files in the same folder:

test.avi
test.eng.srt
test.rus.ac3

When I open test.avi in MPC (either in rev 611-3 or Homecinema) using Haali Renderer, it detects and processes external audio and subs, but doesn't display subs on screen (menu item is active as if subs are displayed). When I delete or rename external audio to prevent MPC from autoloading it, everything is ok.

With other renderers everything is OK.

Noticed this problem only in last version of renderer, but I don't have old version, so I cannot state it's a new bug, thoush I'm sure it's new. :)

cyberbeing

18th June 2007, 07:09

Noticed this problem only in last version of renderer, but I don't have old version, so I cannot state it's a new bug, thoush I'm sure it's new. :)
Here, I uploaded most of the Haali Renderer versions from 10-29-2006 to 06-03-2007 (missing 02-13-2007, 02-27-2007, and 04-27-2007). Keep in mind that the ones from 2006 require a Pixel Shader 2.0 video card. Now you can track down which version the bug was introduced and find yourself a working version until Haali fixes the bug.

Get it here: http://www.mytempdir.com/1357870

masteripper

19th June 2007, 05:53

I don't know if someone has mention it but Haali seems to conflict with PowerDVD's hardware acceleration.When it is installed( in my case with the "PS" setting for the needs of some clips) the PowerDVD cannot play with HW acceleration,it plays only audio and everything else is Black

Clammerz

19th June 2007, 10:23

Hmm, 2 questions relating to the following:
http://blahtemppics2.googlepages.com/Graph1.png

http://blahtemppics2.googlepages.com/Graph2.png

1. Why doesn't Haali splitter have a subtitle output pin on it?
(Yes I have the load VSFilter forced thing on)

2. Why does Haali splitter cause more jitter?

One final kinda request/question...
If Haali splitter doesn't support Vobsubs, will it ever?

(minor note, can someone working on the VSfilter import all the old "Polygonize" code that was taken out ;_;?)

One final thing while I'm at it...
The splitter with the subtitle pin in the picture is the one that's in MPC, the external version... Why doesn't it connect to VSfilter, or the Haali renderer?

<edit> P.S. Gah! I should have put it in the splitter thread, sorry. My bad. </edit>

arfster

24th June 2007, 03:44

Selur

26th June 2007, 09:04

little Feature request for gdsmux:
Would be nice if splitting every xy MB would be possible. ;)

Kado

2nd July 2007, 15:13

@Haali

I have found some issues regarding subtitles and Haali renderer.
You can find more info here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1020953#post1020953).

leeperry

22nd July 2007, 01:41

hi there,

I'm having a convergence issue on my projector and if it was possible to offer a fix, this would be awesome for all the ppl who have projectors/rptv/etc... with the same issue.

I would need the ability to move the R/G/B signals horizontally and vertically.

my blue channel is one pixel on the right too far......if I could set it one pixel on the left in KMP I would get a perfect output :)))

is it possible ?? tell me it is please :cool:

cyberbeing

22nd July 2007, 10:20

@leeperry

That feature was added awhile ago. Update (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/MatroskaSplitter.exe) to the latest version (June 3rd, 2007) if needed and use the image adjustments tab in Haali Renderer's properties.

leeperry

22nd July 2007, 11:09

ok cool thanks!! i forgot about this, i thought it moved luma and chroma :)

could Haali give more depth please, so users can even "fix" very messed up projectors ?!?!

kurt

26th July 2007, 11:38

got this problem when opening haali renderer properties or when coming back from standby modus.

http://i18.tinypic.com/6glvvbl.jpg
--> this only happens if an anamorphic avi is played back...
None but restarting mpc solves the problem...

Testvideo (http://home.arcor.de/evil.bert/test/xvid.par.avi)

my system:
core duo 2ghz, 2 gb ram
ati radeon x1400 256 mb

cyberbeing

27th July 2007, 00:24

I tested your file and get the exact same issue.

wiak

2nd August 2007, 05:07

mpc + haali = macrovision error
but there is _NO_ macrovision in the dvd :confused:

Rash

4th August 2007, 03:51

That's true, Wiak. Go figure.

anonova

7th August 2007, 21:50

As mentioned from someone else here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1031048#post1031048), Haali's renderer does not work with the MPEG-2 demultiplexer ({E436EB83-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}) for me. MPC completely locks up when I open an MPEG-2. I always have to change it to something like the Nero splitter for it to work.

tjf

8th August 2007, 14:33

could Haali give more depth please, so users can even "fix" very messed up projectors ?!?!

I second that. It does not cure completely my red shift. See:

Before (http://www.volny.cz/tfojta/projector/before.jpg) x after (http://www.volny.cz/tfojta/projector/after.jpg)

Tomas

Terranigma

8th August 2007, 18:16

How do I get gdsmux to import ac3 files? Whenever I try and load an ac-3 file, I get "The source filter for this file could not be loaded. (80040241)", why is that? I have ac3filter installed as the directshow filter. :confused:

clsid

8th August 2007, 20:55

AC3Filter is not a source filter, only a decoder. AC3File is a source filter. It's from the same author as AC3Filter.
http://wwww.ac3filter.net

Terranigma

9th August 2007, 15:40

clsid, I forgot to thank you. That worked great. I was able to mux .mp4 (AVC) with ac-3. Thing is, I wasn't able to playback the .mp4 with the ac-3 audio though. I read a thread in the AVC Forums saying that ac-3 works in a .mp4 container, but i'd only just get the video playing back, but no luck with the audio stream (Using your custom MPClassic). To make sure that ac-3 was the culprit, I checked the statistics under File - Properties - Details, and it did'nt show any data for Audio stream. Now I have to say, these people who're claiming to have an .mp4 (AVC) video stream muxed with a ac-3 audio stream playing back without any problems, show some proof please. :)

foxyshadis

9th August 2007, 19:37

Maybe it only works with nero's splitter, since they're the ones who initially broke the standard?

in_awe

9th August 2007, 22:39

Indeed, the image data is uploaded to the video card as RGBA textures even if it's actually YUV, and is converted using shaders.

Haali,

Is this why your renderer cannot accept YV12 input (the chroma planes are smaller than the luma planes and so do not fit into an RGB texture)? If so then I have a suggestion for you. If your renderer receives YV12, expand the chroma planes to the size of the luma plane by duplicating the values. This should allow you to stuff YV12 into an RGBA texture with minimal CPU overhead. Then, when converting YV12 to RGB32 using the pixel shaders, just ignore the duplicates. Here's a picture to show what I mean (numbers are luma samples(Y), letters are chroma samples(UV)):

1 2 3 4
a b
5 6 7 8

becomes

1a 2a 3b 4b

5a 6a 7b 8b

That's for progressive frames, obviously, but interlaced frames would be handled similarly. Alternately, you could fill one sample with the correct value and the other three with a dummy value, then ignore the dummy values when processing. Picture:

1a 2x 3b 4x

5x 6x 7x 8x

If your renderer could accept YV12 directly, that would be great. As it stands right now, any YV12 video requires some CPU time to convert to YUY2 or RGB32 so that your renderer can accept it. Hopefully just duplicating values or inserting dummy ones would require less CPU time.

If I haven't been clear in explaining this, let me know.

P.S. - Thanks for your patience with this forum, Haali. I just finished reading all of the posts in this thread. Some people are overly demanding in requesting new features and seem to think that if they repeat the request 5 times then you will be more likely to implement it. I have yet to see you blow up at someone and tell them to just shut up, even though some have probably deserved it. One request for a new feature is enough folks! Only post again about it if you need to further explain the request. If Haali thinks it's a good idea then he will implement it. If he doesn't, hounding him about it is just going to make him ignore you or even worse, give up on the project.

...Edit...

I just relized that YV12 being planar probably has something to do with this too. So, you would have to both expand the chroma planes and convert to packed. With that extra step, maybe the CPU time savings won't be much. Still, having your renderer be able to accept YV12 directly might be worth it just in the confusion it will save people.

in_awe

13th August 2007, 15:39

After some more thought, I have a better possible way to have the Haali Renderer accept YV12 input. Can 8 bit textures be sent to the video card in DirectX? If so then you could pass each plane of a YV12 frame to the card as an 8 bit texture. The pixel shaders could then access the three textures to process into an RGB32 frame/texture. I'm not a DirectX or pixel shader programmer though, so I don't know if the things I am suggesting are possible.

leeperry

14th August 2007, 01:41

I second that. It does not cure completely my red shift. See:

Before (http://www.volny.cz/tfojta/projector/before.jpg) x after (http://www.volny.cz/tfojta/projector/after.jpg)

Tomas

well now I got a DLP projector.......and it's got another problem :(

the left half of the image is a tiny bit darker than the right side.......

I guess Haali doesn't read this topic anymore......but anyway if that was possible to make the right side as dark as the left side with some option to choose the limit, that would be totally awesome :)

gigah72

31st August 2007, 09:04

i use haali renderer as default output in mpc, now i downloaded a 720p hd trailer from apple and realized, i can't view it with this renderer, same with upsized avs script, or the resize filter set in ffdshow to match screen resolution. no problem with other renderer output in mpc.
is this a known problem?

chros

4th September 2007, 20:34

i use haali renderer as default output in mpc, now i downloaded a 720p hd trailer from apple and realized, i can't view it with this renderer, ...
Which trailer is this? URL ?
I've never encountered any problem with Apple's trailer with this setup ...

ShadowVlican

6th September 2007, 04:54

red5goahead

28th September 2007, 23:39

thanks so much for this renderer . I use it ever under Kmplayer.
It's great. no tearing, no stuttering. almost perfect.

look at these images please.

the first one is with haali in upscaling mode. no resize into KMP.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9449/bionicwomanhaaliresizeio6.th.png (http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bionicwomanhaaliresizeio6.png)

the second one is downscaling because I a lancos resize is applied (->1280x720)

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/4847/bionicwomanhaaliresizeawb2.th.png (http://img443.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bionicwomanhaaliresizeawb2.png)

near beatiful mouth and nose of Michelle Ryan :) there is on first image an horizontal line. the image seems slided on the left. seems a resize problem because in the second images it do not appear.

my system: Vista Business,Asus p5k, Ati 2600 Pro, Cpu Intel e4400, Kmp player.
divx 6.7.0.1 codec in this test.

red5goahead

29th September 2007, 00:20

also look at that very strange situation:

under Vista

first filtergraph, dvdnavigator with vmr9 (also with video render)
it work fine.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2344/filtergraphdvdnavigatortt2.th.png (http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=filtergraphdvdnavigatortt2.png)

in the second test (look image) the only presence of
haali renderer into graph build editor (it's not in chain) causes fail to load the graph:

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3379/filtergraphdvdnavigatorby1.th.png (http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=filtergraphdvdnavigatorby1.png)

there is an incompability between haali render and dvd navigator directshow filter?

moshmothma

1st October 2007, 03:07

aydc

3rd October 2007, 18:17

Does anyone know where Haali is? He seems to have abandoned this project. No updates in a long time, and he doesn't post here anymore...

B.Slisk

3rd October 2007, 19:23

Does anyone know where Haali is? He seems to have abandoned this project. No updates in a long time, and he doesn't post here anymore...
Haali is a bit preoccupied with work right now but is still keeping up with the thread, just not posting much.

See the "Alternative Matroska Splitter" (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=80762&page=37) thread, page 37 - 38.

aydc

4th October 2007, 18:12

Haali is a bit preoccupied with work right now but is still keeping up with the thread, just not posting much.

Cool! Haali Renderer wouldn't be the same without Haali.... :)

Shakey_Jake33

9th October 2007, 02:34

Sorry if I'm just very behind the times, but did anyone ever find a way to get around the 'Macrovision Fail' bug when trying to play a DVD in Haali renderer?

KoD

9th October 2007, 11:59

Rip the DVD to your hard-disk and play it from there. Or use a program like AnyDVD that removes the disc protection on the fly ?

Shakey_Jake33

9th October 2007, 12:10

I'm using AnyDVD actually, which is why it's so wierd! A few pages back, people were reporting getting the same error messege on their own made R0 discs.

Rash

9th October 2007, 16:39

Shakey, that have to do with the decoder, not the disc. I don't know why some decoders require Macrovision when sending the data to the renderer. If you change it to another decoder you might get rid of this error.

CyberLink decoder and Haali used to work here.

Shakey_Jake33

9th October 2007, 17:05

Switching to ffdshow worked a treat - thanks. Shame Cyberlink doesn't work, though I guess the hardware deinterlacing is no big deal really.

red5goahead

16th October 2007, 08:26

do you know haali renderer apply a 3:2 pulldown on 24 fps material to change frame rate to monitor refresh rate at 60 hz.? Actually I use haali renderer with kmp and coreavc professional for mkv/avc1 material. at 24 fps on a monitor with 60 hz refresh rate. fluidity is almost fine.
thanks a lot.

leeperry

18th October 2007, 16:37

hey guys, simple question :D

I'm gonna connect my PC in HDMI to a videoprojector, where the input is not 0-255 but 16-235

so I will force this in my nvidia drivers......but what about Haali's Renderer ?! I should leave it to 16-235 or 0-255 ?!

Thanks,

Adub

18th October 2007, 19:10

If the projector will only be your monitor, I would leave Haali's as 16-235.

If you will have another monitor in addition to your projector, then leave it as 0-255.

leeperry

19th October 2007, 12:57

ok thanks for the reply.

well right now, I got HR and my nvidia drivers set to 0-255 and I've raised to brightness to +16 on the projector.

my goal is to have the 8600GTS send 16-235 to the projector, as I'm having gamma issues(it's too bright)

goddamn I forced 16-235 in the registry, dunno why it still sends 0-255 :o

foxyshadis

19th October 2007, 18:25

They removed that registry hack a while back, actually. Can you send it RGB? That way you can do the conversion however you want.

leeperry

21st October 2007, 08:59

so I can't send 16-235 with a Geforce over DVI ?!?! :(

leeperry

24th October 2007, 22:44

ok I've given up on outputing 16-235 with my 8600GT.

but now I'm getting tons of tearing on my new 720p projector :(

what gives ?!?!?!? :(

aydc

26th October 2007, 18:05

ok I've given up on outputing 16-235 with my 8600GT.

but now I'm getting tons of tearing on my new 720p projector :(

what gives ?!?!?!? :(

Have you tried making v-sync default on?

leeperry

26th October 2007, 20:59

thanks for the tip, I didn't think about it :D

Flagg99

28th October 2007, 00:06

Can anyone provide insight as to why, using either Zoomplayer 5.0 or 5.5 beta with Haali's renderer, dvds freeze on menu screens and eventually grphedit stops responding?

This doesn't happen using the Haali integrated into MPC so in theory it could be ZP but I haven't been able to find much info... I'd prefer to use ZP as it combined with Haali is MILES ahead of VMR, but the freezes are beyond frustrating...

leeperry

28th October 2007, 09:23

try KMPlayer ;)

aydc

29th October 2007, 09:37

Rash

29th October 2007, 17:54

so I can't send 16-235 with a Geforce over DVI ?!?! :(
Oh, lord, that's exactely what I want, and I don't get. *sigh* :(

leeperry

29th October 2007, 19:08

well I've tried everything possible.....no can do...

so I increase the brightness to +16 and the contrast to -17 on my Mitsubishi HC3100 DLP projector.

does the trick really well ;)

Flagg99

29th October 2007, 21:07

It might be because of the notorius Macrovision incompatibility when Haali is used together with ZoomPlayer for DVD Playback. Search the ZoomPlayer forums for more info.

Thanks, I checked their forum but I don't get the error associated with it, plus I'm playing ripped DVDs (I've backed up my entire collection using DVDFab) and that should remove any macrovision issues afaik. Any other possibilities?

I absolutely love the results I get with Haali so I really want to get it running flawlessly...

leeperry

30th October 2007, 13:03

switch to KMPlayer then ;)

leeperry

7th November 2007, 01:54

hey guys, here's the lamest question on earth :D

what's actually sharper ?!?! 0 or -1.0 ?

can I use my nvidia drivers to improve the sharpness even further ?
I've tried to change the video settings in there, but it doesn't seem to change a damn thing :mad:

If I switch to an ATI HD2x00 card, can I still use HR ?!?!? :o

Thanks,

wOxxOm

7th November 2007, 10:23

-1 is more sharp which is subtly visible in poor quality anime in particular easily.
To increase sharpness I recommend switching to FFDShow video decoder for all the formats possible and enable Resize filter with suiting algorithm (Bicubic/Lanczos/any other) finetuning filter's settings page: luma & chroma sharpness. Important thing is to set target resolution for resize to "Desktop resolution" option of course. However this will make your CPU work hard!

leeperry

7th November 2007, 11:13

yeah thanks, I already have 10x lanzcos :D

I want more :o

will HR work with an ATI card ?
I think the latest nvidia drivers are really bloated when it comes to sharpness :O

chros

9th November 2007, 06:39

will HR work with an ATI card ?
Sure, HR only requires Pixelshader 2.0 compatible cards ...

can I use my nvidia drivers to improve the sharpness even further ?
I've tried to change the video settings in there, but it doesn't seem to change a damn thing
Yes, it's possible if you used the Video "Overlay" settings. HR is using the GPU capabilities through Direct3D so you may change those setting (but not recommended, leave it on "Controlled by application"), and you can use the settings where Digital Vibrance is ...

yeah thanks, I already have 10x lanzcos, I want more
As wOxxOm said, you can use ffdshow to apply sharpener filters: I'm using the built-in asharp filter for HD content (it's fast, and gives good quality), and you may try Seesaw with SD content (it's not fast ... :) )

KoD

9th November 2007, 08:03

yeah thanks, I already have 10x lanzcos :D

I want more :o

Can you live with the ringing ? You get what you're looking for, I'd say... Some people really now what 'quality' means !

leeperry

9th November 2007, 21:08

well what's the limit with lanzcos to get sharpness without ringing ?

4x ?

I'm not too sure what ringing is.......but 10x looks sharper to me than 2x :(

I find spline VERY blurry :)

ok thanks chros, everything is fine with the ATI ;)

foxyshadis

11th November 2007, 04:17

Lanczos always causes ringing, it just gets more pronounced as the taps are increased. So do other methods, in general more sharpness = more ringing. (Switching up from bicubic to lanczos helps, but there's not really anything simple that's both sharper and less ringy than lanczos. That's why some call sinc 'perfect'. You have to use something extremely slow like NNEDI.)

If you aren't sure what ringing is, it's the lighter side of an edge turning white, and the darker side turning black. Strengthening the contrast is part of how these algorithms sharpen, the other big difference is how much aliasing (stairstepping) they cause.

If you like the effect, you can use whatever you want though.

leeperry

11th November 2007, 10:49

ok thanks for the reply ;)

actually I always apply sharpen to my videos, with KMP.

the basic sharpen built-in filter looks very natural to me, except for anime...because the edges are not pronounced enough I guess.

actually I've run a lot of tests on my HC3100 beamer, and lanczos 10X is indeed more blurry than 4X + luma sharpen 0.5.....I reallly don't like spline, I find it blurry :D

leeperry

11th November 2007, 23:50

oh BTW I have recently switched from a 8600GT to a HD2400.....and randomly HR locks up when i try to close it.

it happens with KMP and MPC, so it's not application dependant.

it never happened to me with the nvidia card :(

I use XP SP2, and 7.10 ATI drivers if that can help

KoD

12th November 2007, 13:44

The lock-up is something I'm experiencing as well. Only happens with MPC though, never with ZoomPlayer. Also an ATi card here, much ancient than yours (a Radeon 9700) and a single core and no HT cpu.

As for image resizing (resampling is the term that describes what really happens), foxyshadis already explained it, but you may have a look on this page as well to see various algos, as well as a visual description of various artifacts: Image resampling algorithms (http://graphics.cs.msu.ru/en/research/resampling/index.html).

leeperry

12th November 2007, 14:33

cool thanks for the link.

but I think lanczos 4x + luma sharpen 0.5 gives optimal results ?!?!

the locking up issue is getting me crazy.............it happens ALL THE BLOODY TIME now :(

duckyy

13th November 2007, 07:33

Hey people,

I'm experiencing a problem using HR with my new HD2600Pro.
I've been using HR without problems with Geforce Ti4200 and Geforce 6600GT, but with the ATI card, the frame rate drops to 15 fps.

I've actually just managed to get a steady 25fps lowering the buffers and frames in HR options.
I'm using CoreAVC 1.5, ffdshow 1502 and reclock 1.7

My card is MSI 2600Pro. Let me know if you have any clue.

leeperry

13th November 2007, 11:45

hey ducky, did you check all the stuff I told you about ?

anyhow your CPU is too slow, it's not HR's fault I think.

overclock the mofo ;)

kutjong

13th November 2007, 14:23

I love this renderer, too bad it doesn't support YV12... BTW, am I right that YV12->YUY2 conversion is lossless?
I think it would be nice though to have Haali renderer to support YV12 so that cpu usage could be lower without the YUY2 conversion.

Is there any program that can tell if a video use BT.601 or BT.709 color range? I know that in general SD=601 and HD=709 but this isn't always the case...
So switching between 601 and 709 output with Haali renderer, I see differences in colors, but how will I tell which one is right?
What colors will look out of place if wrong output is chosen?

duckyy

13th November 2007, 14:39

hey ducky, did you check all the stuff I told you about ?

anyhow your CPU is too slow, it's not HR's fault I think.

overclock the mofo ;)

I downloaded 3Dmark but I really don't think this is the problem (I'll give you my results tonight).

MSI 2600Pro is 256Mo, so I set 200 in frames and buffer (instead of 256 max) and now everything is fine. The CPU is charged about 30/40%

I'm full YUY2, GPU is doing resize + RGB conversion thanks to HR.

leeperry

13th November 2007, 14:40

leeperry

14th November 2007, 18:23

any chance getting a fix for ATI cards ?!?!?!?!

please Haali, if you read me :D

leeperry

16th November 2007, 21:49

HR is locking up almost ALL THE TIME when I close it, with the latest ATI drivers on XP SP2.

I'm gonna turn nuts anytime soon :(

LoRd_MuldeR

18th November 2007, 22:56

Haali Media Splitter (2007-11-18)
http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

Changes

o New Features:
+ Removed Win9x support
+ Enabled autoloading fonts by default
+ Added support for writing zlib compressed mov headers
+ Added an option to write smaller but less compatile files in gdsmux, this behaviour was always on previously
o Fixed items:
+ Use ACM codec id 0x50 for MPEG-1 layer 1/2 audio
+ Fixed detection of MPEG-1 audio channel count
+ Various bugfixes in gdsmux
+ Eliminated a deadlock in video renderer
+ Fixed H.264 muxing
+ Fixed parsing of zlib compressed mp4/mov headers

leeperry

18th November 2007, 23:42

"Eliminated a deadlock in video renderer"

w00t :D

leeperry

19th November 2007, 10:35

ok new version seems to work flawlessly, Kudos to Haali :D

just a last question, though.

by default resize is on -0.61

If I got it right, anything above this figure will give too much ringing ?!?!

I send lanczos 4x with luma sharpen 0.8 + sharpen to HR, so I don't wanna add ANY more ringing.......I want it as "neutral" as possible.

Thanks,

Switching up from bicubic to lanczos helps, but there's not really anything simple that's both sharper and less ringy than lanczos. That's why some call sinc 'perfect'.

so sinc is a better option than lanczos ?!
what are the optimal settings pls ?

KoD

19th November 2007, 18:24

If you already resize to screen resolution in ffdshow, then Haali's renderer will not resize anything. If ffdshow outputs 1280xsomething and your screen resolution is 1280xsomething, then it's obvious Haali's renderer has nothing to resize.

Regarding that parameter in Haali's renderer options. That parameter is used to set how sharp or how smooth the result of the resampling (I've called it above "resizing") will be. Since you perform resizing in ffdshow, and Haali's renderer performs no resizing, you can move that slider up and down and you'll see no difference because it's never used.

Finally, sinc is the "ultimate" function. It has one big problem: it's an ideal function, mathematical beauty that can't be implemented in reality. What you see as "sinc" implemented in various places is an approximation. The "real deal" would require the use of an infinite number of samples from the past and the future; something like that can't be implemented in the real world. (on a quick search, I haven't found anything better than this (http://www.dspguide.com/ch16/1.htm) to explain it)

Finally:what are the optimal settings pls ?The answer is simple: "the beauty is in the eye of the beholder". In other words, what is beautiful for somebody may not be beautiful for someone else. Beauty is relative, not absolute. Whatever you like the most, that's what beautiful is for you.

leeperry

19th November 2007, 18:37

ok thanks for the reply.

my HC3100 projector has a native resolution of 1280*768

I resize all incoming SD/HD movies to this resolution in lanzcos 4X + luma sharpen 0.5 + sharpen filter, then HR does the AR resizing.

so 1024*768 for 4:3, 1280*533 for 2.40, 1280*692 for 1.85, 1280*720 for 1.78....etc etc

so -0.61 in HR is the most "neutral" for downscaling ?

I'll run some blind tests this evening :D

spline and sinc don't look as sharp as lanczos to me ;)

Haali

19th November 2007, 21:58

The sharpness parameter and bicubic resizing are used only when upscaling. Downscaling uses AF hardware (probably uses some proprietary algorithm). You can see the resizer mode in OSD, N=no scaling, A=AF, S=cubic. Also the osd can be invoked with right-alt+O.

Kado

19th November 2007, 22:57

If the OSD is enabled it will mess with styled subs using mpc internal renderer only if the video is displayed at original (100%) or superior resolution.
Also it seems that the subtitles resolution is limited to 1024x768 resolution even if you use "desktop resolution" in mpc (I use 1680x1050 res for my desktop). I can provide pictures if necessary. Thanks for the updates!

leeperry

19th November 2007, 23:03

thank you for clearing this up Haali, and thank you for this fantastic renderer http://forum.shmup.com/images/smiles/coupdefoudre.gif

so as you predicted, it does say "NA"

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2536/hrpf1.png

BTW, what do u call "AF hardware" ?!

so my 2600XT is doing the resize I guess.....the ATI are good at doing this sort of things, so I'm not too worried :D

FIY, I've got some MKV files that work fine with the "KMP Matroska Splitter" but not with yours, would you want some samples ?
they mostly refuse to play, or no audio....this sort of problems..

PS : I heard you were working on a new version of Reclock, true ?

Leak

19th November 2007, 23:51

BTW, what do u call "AF hardware" ?!
Hardware that does this, i.e. the card's texture units... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anisotropic_filtering)

np: Gebrüder Teichmann - Nick (The Number Of The Beat)

leeperry

20th November 2007, 00:14

ohhhh right, "AF" :D

but it says "NA", not "AF"....I've just tried to force 16X AF, didn't see much change ?!

so something else than AF is taking care of the resize ?!

foxyshadis

20th November 2007, 07:14

ohhhh right, "AF" :D

but it says "NA", not "AF"....I've just tried to force 16X AF, didn't see much change ?!

so something else than AF is taking care of the resize ?!

Yes, ffdshow. Haali's isn't resizing it in any way if you're doing it all in ffdshow, as Haali and others just explained! Your video card, driver settings, and renderer in general don't have to modify the video when it's already the same size.

spline and sinc don't look as sharp as lanczos to me ;)

Lanczos is a truncated sinc, what ffdshow calls a sinc is actually just truncated differently than lanczos. nm though, not related to the discussion.

leeperry

20th November 2007, 10:47

yes, I understand that.

yet, something is resizing 1280*768 to 1280*533.....and it's not the AF apparently.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2536/hrpf1.png

Haali

20th November 2007, 11:49

there are two letters, one for horizontal direction, one for vertical

leeperry

20th November 2007, 12:01

oh ok!! that would explain :D

can I improve the PQ even further ?

would forcing 16X AF/high quality mipmap/triple buffering/24bit z-buffer change anything ?

Thanks!

leeperry

23rd November 2007, 10:21

does 16X AF help with PQ in HR if it's being resized by the video card ? anyone pls ?

I thought AF was related to geometrical backgrounds in games.....

thanks,

kutjong

23rd November 2007, 11:31

I don't think anisotropic filtering affects hardware rendering much, if at all. I think it will only require more work from your gfx card, same as with AA, it'll only have a bad effect.

leeperry

23rd November 2007, 11:50

also what I think.......yet my video is vertically resized through AF ?!

so I was asking Haali if forcing 16X AF would improve the process

foxyshadis

23rd November 2007, 12:28

Leak

23rd November 2007, 13:31

Interestingly, there's a method of finding out what happens to be much faster than asking repeatedly.
That wouldn't happen to be "just friggin' trying it out already", now, would it? :D

leeperry

23rd November 2007, 13:41

Interestingly, there's a method of finding out what happens to be much faster than asking repeatedly. By using this method, I personally couldn't find any difference, and I wouldn't expect one; I'd expect Haali chose whatever was appropriate for the task.

well yeah sometimes I think it's better, sometimes I don't :D

depending on how high I am :o

so I was simply asking for a theoritical answer :thanks:

foxyshadis

24th November 2007, 08:10

Take full-screen screenshots and flip back and forth with an image ABX program. (xnview and irfanview have dedicated comparison windows, for instance.) That saves you from synching up video constantly while trying to remember how the other looked... harder than it sounds when you're baked. ;)

leeperry

24th November 2007, 10:12

good point but I'm not sure that would show up in screenshots.

anyway 16X AF suffers from very slight judder with 1080p content, and 8X AF is fine....so 8X that is :D

foxyshadis

24th November 2007, 13:21

There's no difference between a screenshot and the playing video (outside of overlay renderer). o.O What's on the screen is on the screen either way. An LCD's refresh rate is the only thing I can see having an effect on that, but that'll be uniformly negative and only serve to cover up any differences that might exist.

leeperry

24th November 2007, 13:42

well yeah, anyway I'd love to get a reply from Haali on this one, to know if there's any sense at all to force 8X AF when AF resizing takes place :D

iron2000

24th November 2007, 17:08

What is the effect of the buffer and frame sliders?
The higher the better?

I get lines in the video if I let Haali Renderer upscale the video, is it some video card problem?
Same thing happens with VMR9 on PS2.0 methods.
So I'm using ffdshow to resize.

Yong

24th November 2007, 17:35

iron2000

24th November 2007, 17:57

Yup, using an ATI card.
So thats the problem.

Yong

24th November 2007, 18:24

let ffdshow handle resize might help to eliminate the lines problem, resize to higher resolution is better.

the buffer and frame slider are somekind of frame queuing like ffdshow?
i think higher value only helps if your are playing high resolution video.

iron2000

25th November 2007, 03:42

Maybe there should be some guides written to help promote Haali Renderer and to make it easier to use and tweak.

Like the guides at the ffdshow-tryout page.

kutjong

25th November 2007, 22:56

I would love to see hotkeys for changing between TV and PC levels on-the-fly and also for BT.601 and BT.709, since I'm constantly changing these depending if I'm viewing HD or SD material.

Anybody else agree?

BTW, I'm also quite interested in tweaking those buffer and frames settings. I believe those can make big difference when playing back HD material.

Kado

25th November 2007, 23:27

There isn't much to configure in the renderer settings anyway.
Let's see:
The "buffers" slider adjusts the amount of video memory reserved for the renderer to save video frames.
The "frames" slider limits the number of frames to be saved on the reserved video memory, the number of frames saved will depend on the amount of the reserved memory, will also depend on the video resolution and color space used (RGB32 will consume more memory than YUV2 and so less frames will fit on the same amount of memory, higher resolution video will consume more memory as well).
The "sharpness" slider will set the sharpness for the resized videos being -1 the most sharp possible.
The "YUV colorspace" can be selected to give more accurate color reproduction being "BT.601" for standard resolution material and "BT.709" more used for High Definition material (this may not be accurate).

I suppose the rest is self-explanatory.

You can think of the "Buffers / Frame" system as the queue system used in ffdshow try-outs for VMR9, and if you see a lot of HD stuff use some high values on those two sliders.

In my system I generally use 128MB for the buffers, 120 frames, -0.75 for sharpness, BT.709 and TV range, I have 256MB of video memory.

Hope this helps someone.

kutjong

26th November 2007, 01:52

Thanks for the enlightenment, Kado. I think I will use the same settings as you since it works really well on my setup, too.

Does anybody know what the point of having ffdshow converting YV12/YUY2 to RGB32 before rendering? I suppose it just simply does a TV->PC conversion (if necessary)? I don't see any benefit in that since Haali renderer can do this in hardware much faster. Yet I see many people doing this...
With VMR9 it's different though, since it ouputs in the default luma range (or is it always TV range?), then a RGB32 conversion would be nice, but if I understand correctly ATI and Nvidia cards do this by default in hardware when using VMR9 but this also depends on driver version (in some it's enabled, in some disabled??). What a mess!

Anyway, I don't like the TV->PC conversion very much since it isn't quite lossless if I've understood correctly (some luma data is lost), so I always just output in the TV luma range and adjust my display so that black=black, this way no luma data is lost, I think. This solution looks better anyway, IMO.
There's downsides for this though, video that is encoded with PC levels will look darker than they're supposed to, but I don't consider this as a big problem, because not much PC level video exist. One's desktop and web browsing will in addition have too dark luma (light black/grey will be black and black will be "blacker" than black). That doesn't bother me at all though, since I only watch movies on my HTPC.

It's a shame though that there's no application that will tell one if a video file is encoded in BT.601 or BT.709. I know DGIndex can do this for MPEG but I don't think there is one for DivX, XviD, x264 etc... I mostly have to resort to my eyes for choosing the right color range and I think I'm getting quite good at it, but it still bothers me a little that I have to check for conversion color errors when watching new material. This is also a reason why I think that hotkeys for changing color/luma range would be a good idea.

Kado

26th November 2007, 13:52

Does anybody know what the point of having ffdshow converting YV12/YUY2 to RGB32 before rendering?

Some nVidia cards don't provide quality YUV to RGB conversion so you can have ffdshow do that instead, and haruhiko provided additional settings like the TV<=>PC settings and the YUV color setting. So if your CPU can handle both decoding and RGB conversion you should use it. VMR9 outputs properly with RGB because there's nothing to convert.

Shakey_Jake33

26th November 2007, 17:04

I assume BT.709 should only really be your default if you primarily view HD content? I've kept Haali at default and it looks fine for me, even on my HD footage (which might be encoded for BT.601 anyway).

kutjong

26th November 2007, 17:50

Some nVidia cards don't provide quality YUV to RGB conversion so you can have ffdshow do that instead, and haruhiko provided additional settings like the TV<=>PC settings and the YUV color setting. So if your CPU can handle both decoding and RGB conversion you should use it. VMR9 outputs properly with RGB because there's nothing to convert.
So in other words, YV12/YUY2 to RGB conversion in ffdshow is only good with VMR9, right? With Haali, you can just select TV range and it will do the RGB and luma conversion in hardware.

@Shakey_Jake33

Yeah, BT.709 should be your default color range if you primarily watch HD content, altough not all HD material is in BT.709, some may be in BT.601.
It might be hard for you to spot these color conversion errors and it might not even bother you. It certainly didn't bother me before I knew about this issue... Now that I know, it has become a more psychical thing, I guess.

Anyway, this one image helps much in spotting color conversion errors (kudos to leeperry):

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7717/barsmatrixqh9.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barsmatrixqh9.jpg)

Shakey_Jake33

26th November 2007, 17:56

Well, when I set BT.709 and watch SD content, the colour levels are *noticably* incorrect, whereas the HD content I have looks fine in BT.601. Obviously I have no 'reference' to know they are correct, but you can tell when colours are blatently wrong even without seeing what they're supposed to look like. Mind you, in the case of stuff like HDTV rips, they might have been made for BT.601 anyway. I try not to think too much about it, otherwise I become obsessed with 'correct' and I end up suffering sleepless nights!

Looking at Kado's settings, the default Buffers/Frames setting seems awfully low, and has me wondering if I should change to similar!

kutjong

26th November 2007, 18:42

Hehe, I think I'm already getting obsessed with this correct video playback stuff. Not having any sleepless nights yet, though. ;)

It's sometimes annoying when you can't play back video the way you would like it. An ideal renderer would IMO be:
Haali's renderer with DXVA 1/2 support, YV12 input support and autodetection of color range. :p
Maybe even resizing in PS 3.0, but I don't know if that would show any improvement.

If Haali would have these features, I think it would be the definite renderer. Anyway. I may be getting way over my head with this stuff, because I don't know squat about software programming/development.

Kado

26th November 2007, 21:10

@Shakey_Jake33
Looking at Kado's settings, the default Buffers/Frames setting seems awfully low, and has me wondering if I should change to similar!
If you set them too high you will get no picture or crash the player, they are low as a precaution but tune them as you like.

@kutjong
So in other words, YV12/YUY2 to RGB conversion in ffdshow is only good with VMR9, right? With Haali, you can just select TV range and it will do the RGB and luma conversion in hardware.

Remember that is always the same hardware doing the conversion and you'll get better results from ffdshow converter, the problem with VMR9 was that it always outputted PC levels (I think EVR did it too except for EVR custom), where in Haali you can choose. I recommend ffdshow RGB conversion except if your CPU can't handle both the decoding and conversion and if it drop frames.

What I would like for the renderer to support is subtitles resolution exceeding the 1024x768 resolution from the mpc internal renderer and DXVA.

kutjong

26th November 2007, 21:21

@kutjong

Remember that is always the same hardware doing the conversion and you'll get better results from ffdshow converter, the problem with VMR9 was that it always outputted PC levels (I think EVR did it too except for EVR custom), where in Haali you can choose. I recommend ffdshow RGB conversion except if your CPU can't handle both the decoding and conversion and if it drop frames.
So you're saying that ffdshow does RGB conversion in hardware? I thought ffdshow was all about doing everything in software...

Anyway, as I said, I'm not doing TV->PC luma conversion. I simply calibrate my projector so that TV range black looks black, not dark grey. This looks much better than doing a TV->PC conversion, IMO.

Kado

26th November 2007, 21:40

No ffdshow do it in software, the renderers do in hardware.

kutjong

26th November 2007, 22:15

So... Wouldn't Haali renderer be better for that since it does the YUY2->RGB conversion in hardware?

Kado

26th November 2007, 22:32

kutjong

27th November 2007, 01:10

vmr9, evr do it in hardware as well. there are some nvidia graphics cards that don't give good conversion. the problem with evr and vmr9 is that they output always in pc leves if the input is YV12/YUV2 unless registry tweaked.
Yeah, and in some driver releases the registry tweak won't even work...

Man, putting buffer size to 128 mb and frames to 120 has really helped on HD playback. I'm now able to play back x264 1080p material with CoreaAVC with standard deblocking on my laptop. Before this I always had to disable deblocking to play it back properly.

My laptop is btw: Core 2 duo T7200 2 GHz, 7600 Go, 2048 MB RAM, XP etc...

foxyshadis

27th November 2007, 04:11

Anyway, I don't like the TV->PC conversion very much since it isn't quite lossless if I've understood correctly (some luma data is lost), so I always just output in the TV luma range and adjust my display so that black=black, this way no luma data is lost, I think. This solution looks better anyway, IMO.

YUV->RGB is the lossy conversion, using TV or PC coefficients doesn't change anything, and it's much simpler than recalibrating your monitor every time you watch something. Of course, TV->PC conversion is lossy if done entirely in the YUV or RGB domain, as well; thus the preference for doing it all in one step.

You should actually get slightly better (less banding) results by performing the conversion, but that's only if your monitor isn't a cheap 6-bit or 7-bit screen.

iron2000

27th November 2007, 05:58

Thanks for the explanation and suggestion, Kado.

From what I think I understand, the only differences between Haali's and VMR9 is that its more configurable and has a different way resizing videos.

Putting those two differences aside are there anymore advantages of using Haali's?

KoD

27th November 2007, 11:53

Putting those two differences aside are there anymore advantages of using Haali's?
What other advantages would you expect ? Care to elaborate ?

Yong

27th November 2007, 12:30

iron2000

28th November 2007, 06:29

kutjong

28th November 2007, 13:05

Maybe not advantages but differences.

Read the first page again and the main difference is the way they resize videos so if you take that away they are both the same thing? Then Haali's advantage is that it allows the user to change the buffer and frames values?
Haali also supports options for color range and luma range. VMR9 always outputs in tv range (doesn't convert to PC), this'll make black look like dark grey etc...
Haali's superior resizing is already enough for me to choose it over VMR9, the only thing that Haali lacks is DXVA and YV12 input support.

Kado

28th November 2007, 14:33

VMR9 always outputs in tv range (doesn't convert to PC)
Its the other way around, VMR9 uses the the full luma range, i.e. the PC levels.

For the differences although both use shader model 2 and bicubic haali seems more efficient (haali coded both resizing engines), haali can use shader model 1 as well in the latest versions. another point is the advanced configurability and osd for av info. VMR9 sometimes display that one pixel line in the videos haali does not. Since I don't really need DXVA Haali rules! There are some problems with the subs when using haali and mpc internal renderer but that's just me wanting supreme quality, will document later.

iron2000

28th November 2007, 15:10

hmm...
The resizing doesn't matter to me as videos will have lines if PS2.0 methods are used, currently using ffdshow to resize.

Is DXVA = hardware acceleration?
How much does the video card play in the case of using Haali's or VMR9, are there any difference?

Is it that if the codec does not do DXVA than it doesn't matter if the renderer supports DXVA or not?

kutjong

28th November 2007, 18:41

Its the other way around, VMR9 uses the the full luma range, i.e. the PC levels.

You know what I meant. ;) VMR9 just displays the TV levels in PC levels without doing the actual conversion, I mean.

@iron2000

For DXVA, you need a DXVA compatible decoder, renderer and graphics card. Nvidia calls their DXVA implementation Purevideo and ATI theirs AVIVO.
AFAIK, the only DXVA compatible renderers are VMR9 and EVR. DXVA decoders... Well, I don't think there's any open source decoders that would support it. But commercial e.g purevideo decoder, cyberlink decoder support it. Ffdshow doesn't, FYI.

DXVA simply adds hardware acceleration for video decoding and other advanced features such as noise reduction, motion adaptive deinterlacing etc... You can do all this in software I suppose, but it would probably be way too heavy for a CPU.
DXVA is really helpful when decoding H.264 material.

Kado

28th November 2007, 22:30

WMV3/9 supports DVXA for the version 11 of the codec. You can use Zambelli's WMV PowerToy (http://www.citizeninsomniac.com/WMV/) to enable those options. Use VMR9 because it does not seem to work with EVR at least for me (6800GS and Vista x86).

kutjong

28th November 2007, 22:43

Yeah... DXVA is also only available for MPEG-2, H.264, WMV and VC-1, I think. No DXVA for MPEG 4-ASP (XviD, DivX), but decoding that doesn't take much on the CPU anyway.

And then there's DXVA 1.0 and 2.0... I'm not quite certain about the differences, but I think 2.0 requires EVR to work and a DX10 capable graphics card? :confused: 1.0 requires VMR9 and DX9, and I believe it's not compatible with EVR.
I also think that 2.0 is the only way to get 100% HW acceleration with H.264.

Anyway, if 2.0 requires DX10 then there's no way to make it work on XP, altough I've heard that Nvidia is working on somehow getting DXVA 2.0 on XP. Can't remember where I read that, though.

Also, is it even possible to implement DXVA 1.0/2.0 into a opensource/personal project? I mean, does it require a license of some sort? Just thinking if it's even possible to implement it in Haali renderer...
I would guess though that Haali doesn't even want it/need it. :p

iron2000

29th November 2007, 07:40

Thanks for the answers, I feel enlightened!

Kado

29th November 2007, 15:15

I also think that 2.0 is the only way to get 100% HW acceleration with H.264.

The level of acceleration depends on the hardware used, of course only the latest cards (directx10) have full hardware acceleration and they use DXVA 2.0. While the ATI cards have full hardware acceleration the nVidia ones still lack full acceleration for VC-1 encoded streams (even the 8800GT).

With DXVA 1.0 you have limited acceleration for WMV/VC-1,MPEG2 and H.264 (H.264 in XP only) with compatible hardware and for DXVA 2.0 you have full (with the limitations stated before) hardware acceleration for the same formats, with full I mean decoding and post-processing in hardware.

Anyway this tread sure is going off topic with all this DXVA talking...

mjrweed

29th November 2007, 21:25

chros

29th November 2007, 22:03

This might be a stupid question, but here go`s:
No, it's not !
Haali said that he wants this feature, and we couldn't tell him to include an option for it at least (He doesn't like when some portion of the video is outside of the screen).

So, it's normal (unfortunately), and if it's bothering you (like many of us) just resize the player at double sizes (eg: ALT+3 in MPC), and in this case the renderer doesn't resize at all !!!

mjrweed

29th November 2007, 22:24

Thanks for the quick reply chros.

Ive set mpc to go directly into fullscreen when starting a video file. I guess that will have to do :)

Haali

30th November 2007, 22:01

A few notes about HR regarding the previous discussion:
1) HR produces predictable results independent of the driver version or settings when doing YUV to RGB conversion.
2) HR does bicubic upscaling using shaders 2.0 and AF downscaling.
3) HR uses shaders 2.0 for deinterlacing, frame doubling is the only available method.

When only shaders 1.x are available HR uses hardware scaling and does only YUV->RGB conversion using shaders, deinterlacing is also not available.

leeperry

1st December 2007, 02:40

ok thanks for the clarifications

but why does 16X AF create tearing then ?
no point in forcing 8X AF at all for "AA" content ?

any chance providing support for DXVA ?
Whenever I enable Trimension DNM in the WinDVD6 video decoder I get a lot of tearing.....which doesn't occur in overlay.

and also H264 acceleration from PowerDVD's filter is not working with HR....I believe this one is using DXVA2 ;)

and some hotkey for BT601/709 would be handy, just like some auto-detection would be....if any possible ?!

Thanks for all!!!

Leak

1st December 2007, 12:08

but why does 16X AF create tearing then ?
Because it needs more memory bandwidth than 8x AF? If getting an image out will take too long it's too late to wait for VSync, so probably the renderer immediately starts on the next frame - that'd of course cause tearing.

np: Future Sound Of London - Long Shadows (From The Archives Vol. 3)

Haali

1st December 2007, 17:28

HR already uses maximum possible AF samples, and enables VSync. Forcing these settings in driver control panel only screws other unsuspecting apps.

leeperry

1st December 2007, 17:55

alright, sounds fair enough ;)

I would guess that you would force top-quality AF resizing....but you don't seem to be using 16X AF ?

with 1080p high bitrate movies, I get tearing if I force 16X AF, which I don't with 8X ?!

any chance auto-detecting the colorspace ?
that would be so awesome :D

or at least setting up a hotkey to toggle them.

благодарю Вас ;)

rijnton

1st December 2007, 22:18

My setup:
Vista
MPC Home Cinema
ffdshow
haali splitter

This might be a stupid question, but here go`s:
When i chose haali`s video render as output, and try to play a 1280x720 file, it seems to resize the image to 640x360(Video properties) when my screen res is 1280x720. Any way to use haali`s video render without the resizing of the video?
(When i switch back to default render in mpc, it plays in 1280x720)

I see this too and maybe MY question, as a new member of this forum and a noob IS stupid:
Does that mean that without any additional settings and when playing in fullscreen, I only get half of the reolution ?
Or in other words, is 640x360 in fact "blown up" to 1280x720 ?
(I have a HD-ready LCD TV as display and resolution set to 720p fwiw and use HR in MPC)

And may I ask another question: I read Kado's post, a few pages back, about the Buffer and Frame sliders.
Could you give me a recommendation on how to set it ?
I watch a lot of HD material and have 768MB video memory on my 8800GTX. (If of interest, my cpu is a Core2 E6600).
Thanks in advance.
Ton

Haali

1st December 2007, 23:21

No, only the initial window size is affected. Using many buffers may help on a slow pc. I think on your setup it won't gain anything.

Shakey_Jake33

2nd December 2007, 00:32

I see this too and maybe MY question, as a new member of this forum and a noob IS stupid:
Does that mean that without any additional settings and when playing in fullscreen, I only get half of the reolution ?
Or in other words, is 640x360 in fact "blown up" to 1280x720 ?
(I have a HD-ready LCD TV as display and resolution set to 720p fwiw and use HR in MPC)

It only affects Windowed, it's just making it so that when your video is so high a resolution that it overscans the TV (when windowed), it halfs the resolution. Annoyed me at first, but I've become to like it. You can Press Right-Alt+O to see exactly what resizing is going on.

rijnton

2nd December 2007, 15:39

Thanks for the replies.
May I still ask a few more questions then ?
1) I have my display (tv) calibrated, with DVE, to video levels so that 16 is black.
Is it correct that I have to set Luma Range in HR to PC (o-255) then ? I noticed that when I set it to TV, I cannot make btb visible, even when I increase brightness of tv to max. Set to PC I can see btb. (of course I calibrate then so that 16=black and btb resolves in the background). And should CoreAVC, for H.264, be set to TV output ?
2) What is the best setting in CoreAVC for Output Formats, YUY2 on top or RGB32 ? I noticed that cpu usage with RGB32 is about doubled compared to YUY2, although still rather low (YUY2=around 20% and RGB32=around 40%).
3) I have HR as a component of the CCCP package and apparently it is not the latest version. Can I install the latest version of Haali Media Splitter over it ?
Thanks in advance.
Ton

kutjong

2nd December 2007, 18:21

rijnton

2nd December 2007, 19:05

1. If you select PC levels in Haali, it will output in PC levels without doing any conversion to PC levels. If you select TV, then it'll do the TV->PC conversion. I keep coreavc on auto, then it won't do any sort of luma range conversion. I let Haali do that.

Thanks. Just to know if I understand it correctly:
So to keep blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white and then calibrate my tv to that (so 16=reference black) I indeed have to set Haali to PC ?
And when set to TV Haali "clips" 0-15 en 236-255 and expands the 16-235 range to 0-255 ?

kutjong

2nd December 2007, 23:00

Thanks. Just to know if I understand it correctly:
So to keep blacker-than-black and whiter-than-white and then calibrate my tv to that (so 16=reference black) I indeed have to set Haali to PC ?
And when set to TV Haali "clips" 0-15 en 236-255 and expands the 16-235 range to 0-255 ?
Yes. Consider the luma range options as options for input. E.g if your video material is in TV range, you would normally want to do the TV->PC conversion, then you select TV as "input".
But in your (and my) case, we're getting the correct luma output by calibrating our display, so that means we have to choose PC as "input" so that no conversion is made.

Rash

3rd December 2007, 15:27

Anyway, this one image helps much in spotting color conversion errors (kudos to leeperry):

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7717/barsmatrixqh9.th.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barsmatrixqh9.jpg)
Really great picture! :)

About the VMR9 and EVR discussion, it seems that with new NVIDIA drivers the EVR convertion is smarter here. Actually working. The only real problem I have is that EVR still adds grey bars (16, 16, 16) no matter what video is playing. So when I watch HD content I have blacks in video and grey bars. That is just awful.

zgx

3rd December 2007, 21:14

I'm not sure this is the correct thread but here goes.

I'm currently using VMR9 Renderless in ZoomPlayer 5 mainly because I want to get subtitles working. I get bad tearing when playing x264 encoded content (E6750, 8600GT, Windows XP).

If I use reclock 1.6 and VSYNC the tearing is gone and that's great and all. But when I play high bitrate x264 content I get the audio slighly out of sync. If I remove ReClock the audio is in sync but the tearing is back.

Have tried different decoders (CoreAVC, Cyberlink and ffdshow) but nothing works.

Is Haali renderer something that would help me in some way? Does it work with subtitles?

Any other idead how to get no tearing and still having synced audio?

Kado

4th December 2007, 09:13

Try Media Player Classic Homecinema (http://tibrium.neuf.fr/), along with Haali splitter and Haali renderer (http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/). Haali renderer supports subtitles and has several other features and settings, you won't know until you try, requires GPU with shader model 1 but you may get better results if your GPU has shader model 2 or better.

KoD

4th December 2007, 10:42

As far as I can remember, using the integrated subtitler of MPC is a bad idea for two reasons:
1. .ass subtitles have horizontal scaling to account for the difference between the frame aspect ratio and the display aspect ratio (subs are compressed horizontally; for instance, when the frame is 720x480 pixels but display resolution must be 852x480), but MPC's internal subtitler draws on top of the 852x480 frame, not on the 720x480 one
2. for same reasons as above, positioning is completely wrong when using .ass subtitles

That's why everybody that is involved in the process of creating .ass subs recommends to use vsfilter and not MPC's internal subtitler.

zgx

4th December 2007, 11:26

Thanks for your feedback Kado and KoD.

I tried Haali Renderer out but at first it didn’t help. But thanks to the OSD feature I could see how the “jitter” changed when I was using ReClock. It started out at a few ms but quickly rised to ~20 ms and then after a few seconds it was back to a few ms and then quickly up to ~20 ms again. This jitter is most likely what was causing the slight audio sync problem.

When not using reclock I think the tearing was slightly better with Haali but far from perfect. With relock the tearing was gone.

After a lot of experimentation I changed my refresh rate from 24 Hz to 60 Hz and Haali then showed that the “jitter” was lower and more stable at around 5-7 ms all the time. I could probably change “time shift” in AC3Filter or ffdshow to compensate for 6 ms or something like that but it seams this jitter is only appearing in some high bitrate encodes.

I’m going to give Haali Renderer a good try to see if I can do without WMR9. Thinking about what kind of settings I should use.

- I'm mostly viewing HD material.
- I have 512 MB memory on an Nvidia 8600GT and 2 GB RAM.
- The display is an Epson TW1000 projector (1920x1080) (DVI-HDMI cable used).

1. BT.709 for HD material right?
2. 128MB buffer or can/should I use more?
3. How many frames should I set it to? (someone recommended 120)
4. Will TV range give me more correct black levels and colors?
5. Sharpness does not affect playback when there is no scaling?
6. What’s suitable sharpness value for upscaling 720p to 1080p?

Kado

4th December 2007, 11:44

@zgx
1=>Correct in most occasions.
2=>128mb is enough but this is only to help in avoiding frame drops in case the CPU can't cope with the decoding, I use 128mb and have 6800gs 256mb, in my case using higher settings gives worse results under heavy load.
3=>That recommendation was probably from my post, this setting is more a limit because you can only fit about 32 frames with 1920x1080 resolution and YUV2 color space even if you set it to 120 frames using 128mb of buffers.
4=>Most videos use TV range so yes.
5=>Yes.
6=>Well that's really up to your taste so try various settings, but remember that -1 is the most sharp possible.

@KoD

Could you provide some screenshots displaying those issues if possible?

rijnton

4th December 2007, 15:11

@zgx

4=>Most videos use TV range so yes.

Athough it was not my question, I am a bit confused now,
How is this to reconcile with kutjong's answer tp my question on the previous page of this thread ?
Quote: "Yes. Consider the luma range options as options for input. E.g if your video material is in TV range, you would normally want to do the TV->PC conversion, then you select TV as "input".
But in your (and my) case, we're getting the correct luma output by calibrating our display, so that means we have to choose PC as "input" so that no conversion is made".

kutjong

4th December 2007, 17:26

For most people, calibrating the display for correct luma is not a practical solution, since that'll make everything that is in PC range look too dark, mostly this includes everything else but video in TV range. Therefore it's just easier to make a TV->PC conversion.

But if you have a HTPC and only watch movies on it, you usually get better results by calibrating the display than doing the conversion. This looks better for me.

rijnton

5th December 2007, 01:31

@kutjong: I sent you a pm.

KoD

5th December 2007, 11:28

@KoD

Could you provide some screenshots displaying those issues if possible?
If I find time, yes. But it would be easier to do it yourself.

Just take any anamorphic encode (and encode whose frame aspect ratio is not the display aspect ratio), then use Aegisub to make a subtitle file. Load the video in Aegisub so you can easily position each sub line. You can edit the style to use a font that would really look distorted when horizontally compressed.

rijnton

7th December 2007, 20:06

Finally I have read this complete thread.
One question though. A few pages back I read about the 3D settings of the driver when using HR, but it's not completely clear to me which settings I should use.
Could you give me some recommendations ? FWIW, I have the Geforce 8800GTX with 163.75 drivers.
TIA.
Ton

mjrweed

7th December 2007, 22:36

I see this too and maybe MY question, as a new member of this forum and a noob IS stupid:
Does that mean that without any additional settings and when playing in fullscreen, I only get half of the reolution ?
Or in other words, is 640x360 in fact "blown up" to 1280x720 ?
(I have a HD-ready LCD TV as display and resolution set to 720p fwiw and use HR in MPC)

No, only the initial window size is affected.

Okay, so the fact that when i click properties in MPC homecinema in fullscreen mode, and it still shows 640x360 is nothing to worry about? I`m still seeing a 1280x720 image even though mpc is telling me the image is 640x360??

Kado

7th December 2007, 23:42

@mjrweed
Check the size of the video with the renderer OSD (ALT GR + O).

rijnton

9th December 2007, 14:46

kutjong

9th December 2007, 15:06

Nobody know an answer ?
Just leave the settings at application-controlled. Haali renderer then chooses the optimal AF samples and enables v-sync for itself, no need to force them yourself.

rijnton

10th December 2007, 14:22

Just leave the settings at application-controlled. Haali renderer then chooses the optimal AF samples and enables v-sync for itself, no need to force them yourself.

And are V-sync and AF the only settings that are of importance ? And should I leave the others at default ?
And what about AA ? Is it best to force it OFF ?

Kado

10th December 2007, 17:01

@rijnton
Just leave everything application controlled. You´ll probably only get worse results by tweaking the settings manually.

lstepnio

10th December 2007, 17:49

I'm using the latest version of the Haali Media Splitter and Video Renderer for playback of HD x264/MKV media files using the CoreAVC 1.5 decoder.

Haali Media Splitter
AC3Filter
CoreAVC 1.5 (1.6 removes skip deblocking so I'm still running 1.5)
Haali Video Renderer

The problem is related to having the "switch resolution on fullscreen" enabled in Zoom Player when using the Haali Video Renderer. This will causes Zoomplayer to lockup most of the time when closing the application while the video is playing. Testing shows that if the video is stopped prior to closing the application the lockup does not occur. If I switch to VMR or Overlay for the renderer the application lockup does not occur. If I disable "switch resolution on fullscreen" in the application the issue does not occur.

I'm guessing this is a timing issue with the renderer still holding resources while the Zoomplayer application is switching resolutions back to the desktop settings when exiting. I'm not sure if this should be handled by ZP or by Haali. I haven't tried to replicate with another DS player.

leeperry

11th December 2007, 11:46

red5goahead

11th December 2007, 12:28

hey guys I got a h264/dts/mkv movie that gives judder to hell with HR.
http://www.badongo.com/file/5547139
problem doesn't seem to come from the splitter, because I've tried both Haali's Media Splitter and KMP MKV Splitter and the problem remains exactly the same.
If I use Reclock, it's perfectly smooth.
HR is at fault ?!

Confirm . that file has stuttering. My refresh rate is 75 HZ and the file have 25 fps. I try it under ZP with coreavc as video decoder and dscaler as audio decoder (for dts). If I switch to evr (xp version) no stuttering is present. But the problem could be the audio decoding because with gabest mpa or ffdshow audio the play is smooth but slow..It's weird.

leeperry

11th December 2007, 12:47

hey red5 ;)

you run EVR on XP ?!?!?!?!

I've always thought that Reclock was aimed at snobby people, but obvisouly it's useful......even with HR :o

and doing "paltruspeed" by lowering to 23.976 with Reclock is not only smooth as butter, but also gives the right sound pitch.

Here's my config in KMPlayer :

[Primary Filtergraph]
0) - KMP Matroska Reader
1) - KMP AVI<->AC3/DTS Transform
2) - ffdshow Video Decoder
3) - InterVideo Audio Decoder
4) - KMP Video Transform
5) - Haali's Video Renderer
6) - DirectSound: SB X-Fi Audio [C080]

red5goahead

11th December 2007, 12:55

try Ac3 filter for dts decoding

[Primary Filtergraph]
0) - Chaos.mkv
1) - AC3 Filter for DTS
2) - CoreAVC Video Decoder
3) - KMP Audio Transform(Copy)
4) - Haali's Video Renderer
5) - Default DirectSound Device

no stuttering with ac3 filter ad decoder audio for dts
obviolsy no reclock.

kutjong

11th December 2007, 12:56

hey guys I got a h264/dts/mkv movie that gives judder to hell with HR.

http://www.badongo.com/file/5547139

problem doesn't seem to come from the splitter, because I've tried both Haali's Media Splitter and KMP MKV Splitter and the problem remains exactly the same.

If I use Reclock, it's perfectly smooth.

HR is at fault ?!
That clip plays back fine on my system, I use MPC 6.4.9.1, CoreAVC 1.5, Haali splitter, Haali renderer and AC3filter with SPDIF enabled so that my Audigy 2 ZS does the DTS decoding in hardware. :)

The clip plays back with about 5 ms jitter and Haali buffers 97 frames ahead. I have the buffer set to 128 mb and 120 frames, I have a 256 mb geforce 7600 Go graphics card.

Maybe you should try AC3filter or/and bigger buffer with Haali renderer?

leeperry

11th December 2007, 13:07

kutjong

11th December 2007, 14:00

I have 200/200 set as buffer in HR, seems to be smoother than 256/256 on my HD2600XT PCI-E

gotcha red5! Intervideo audio filter seems to be at fault :D

problem also seems to be gone if I use CinePlayer Sonic HD DVD pack 4.3 for DTS

I'll try on my HC3100 this evening, thanks for your help fellas ;)

and BTW, that BT.601/709 is driving me nuts, I'll post some screenshots and you'll tell me.

I mainly watch mkv 720p files, and I'm always wondering about the colorspace.

simple rules seem to be that if ppl look too green in 709, it's 601
and if colors look washed out with reds being too dark in 601, it's 709
I'm not suprised that 200 mb is smoother than 256 mb, 256 dries your graphics card completely since that's all the ram it has, and there should be some ram for windows GDI, too. ;)

Oh, and about colorspace, I wonder what's the case with BT.470 encoded material? When I play some mpeg files through dgindex, they all have BT.470-2 colorimetry. Is BT.470-2 just a standard for analog video? Is BT.601 identical to 470-2 but just digital? And for last, does Haali renderer play back 470-2 correctly?

leeperry

11th December 2007, 14:46

kutjong

11th December 2007, 15:32

BT470-2 = BT601 AFAIK

so anyone's got tips to find out whether a movie is 601 or 709 ?

BTW my file seems to be stuttering a bit with CinePlayer Sonic HD DVD pack 4.2(4.3 refuses to output DTS for sum reason...)

I think I will always use Reclock from now on when I watch movies on my pj ;)
I would also like to know a solution for this 601 and 709 mess. Currently I just use 601 for everything<720p and 709 for all that is >720p and hope it to be correct. Trying to detect those color errors is quite tiresome.

Anyway, what do you use for DTS decoding? A receiver, software or your X-Fi card? Software should be your last choice.

leeperry

11th December 2007, 17:56

a lot of DVD's actually run 709.
you can check it with DGIndex.

well my X-Fi card is supposed to have some DTS decoding capabilities, but I still need some software decoder I think ?!

any idea how to use the X-Fi decoder within a DS player ?

I've compared all the AC3/DTS decoders I have(AC3filter, Intervideo, Cyberlink, Sonic) and Sonic is the most natural one.
The others sounds dull or too "computer"-like.

I use a pair of MDR-CD3000 SONY headphones and I used several DTS96/24 DVD's to run the test ;)

Shakey_Jake33

11th December 2007, 18:54

a lot of DVD's actually run 709.
you can check it with DGIndex.

Which means they look wrong on a TV then, surely?

kutjong

11th December 2007, 20:17

well my X-Fi card is supposed to have some DTS decoding capabilities, but I still need some software decoder I think ?!

any idea how to use the X-Fi decoder within a DS player ?
To use your X-Fi for AC3/DTS decoding, you still need a a directshow filter to pass the stream to your soundcard for processing. You do this by enabling SPDIF in that filter, this will make the filter forward the stream to your soundcard for decoding. The important part is not to enable SPDIF in your X-Fi's options, though.

I don't know though if X-Fi supports DTS96/24 decoding. I've noticed that DTS-HD isn't supported by my Audigy 2 ZS... It'll try to decode it but it sounds like garbage. In this case I have to use software decoding with AC3filter. :o

How do you use DGIndex to check DVDs? It won't accept .vob.

leeperry

11th December 2007, 21:05

kutjong

11th December 2007, 22:46

so i need to choose SPDIF output in my DS player, then disable SPDIF in the X-Fi drivers ?

I'll give it a shot then :D

well, last time I tried it did accept .vob, just make sure to have AnyDVD in the back so it's not CSS encrypted ;)
I don't know if you have to enable SPDIF in the media player, but you certainly have to do it in the directshow filter that you use for AC3/DTS decoding.

With anydvd, vobs now work with DGIndex... I've gone through about 8 DVDs (both PAL and NTSC) with DGIndex and apparently all are in BT.709?? I thought that DVDs were mostly in BT.601, not 709.
Autodetect in Haali renderer would be a very nice feature.

Anyway, I have to use VMR9 to get those nice purevideo features (which need DXVA), so currently I'm not using Haali renderer for DVDs.

Sharc

11th December 2007, 23:49

......I've gone through about 8 DVDs (both PAL and NTSC) with DGIndex and apparently all are in BT.709?? ......

I assume you checked with DGIndex 1.4.9? A change has been introduced from DGIndex 1.5.0 beta 12 onwards, see for example
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1063746#post1063746 and related discussions on colorimetry.
* When a stream does not declare the colorimetry, matrix_coefficients=1 is assumed for HD video and matrix_coefficients=5 is assumed for SD video.

kutjong

12th December 2007, 01:17

I assume you checked with DGIndex 1.4.9? A change has been introduced from DGIndex 1.5.0 beta 12 onwards, see for example
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1063746#post1063746 and related discussions on colorimetry.
* When a stream does not declare the colorimetry, matrix_coefficients=1 is assumed for HD video and matrix_coefficients=5 is assumed for SD video.
Yeah, I was using 1.4.9. With the new beta it shows *BT.470-2 on those DVDs. I suppose that this means that there is no colorimetry flag that tells what colorspace it uses, and DGIndex assumes then that it's 470-2.

leeperry

12th December 2007, 01:48

kutjong

12th December 2007, 13:49

Hm, I think I've found a bug. If I play DVDs with Haali renderer, the renderer will always go to default setting on the frame buffer. It also seems that Haali renderer doesn't react to changing the buffer on-the-fly, but the problem is that the renderer always defaults the frame buffer if you restart it! This happens with all mpeg-2/DVD decoders.

It is quite annoying since Haali renderer isn't capable of smooth frame doubling deinterlacing with a 4 frame buffer, I think. If I go fullscreen with a 29,97 fps DVD, Haali renderer isn't capable of rendering 60 fps, it only goes to about 50 fps and there is about 900 ms jitter, which isn't smooth. If I am not in fullscreen, Haali renders 60 fps perfectly, so I think a bigger buffer is needed but it's currently impossible to set a higher frame buffer than 4 since the renderer doesn't remember that setting!

If you want to use Haali's deinterlacing, in ffdshow you have to set interlace flag in output media type to "bob". You'll find this in the output tab. Also, you have to use libmpeg2 decoder, with libavcodec the interlace flag doesn't work.

foxyshadis

12th December 2007, 19:10

so DGIndex is useless then.

there's another tool that can check the colorspace, but only if it's been commented in the stream.

if anyone knows of such tools ?

anyhow, automatic detection in HR is most likely impossible....

Automatic detection of what? The only difference between the colormatrices is that one is slightly oranger; it can be decoded perfectly validly either way. If no information is present in the source stream, no other tool can help. (601/470 is supposed to be default in the absense of a flag, though.)

Which means they look wrong on a TV then, surely?
Pretty much. Not many DVD players even bother to read the flag.

leeperry

12th December 2007, 19:34

well yeah, that's what I meant.

we're teh screwed, it can't be auto-detected.

so we need easy rules to see it by eye...

simple rules seem to be that if ppl look too green in 709, it's 601
and if colors look washed out with reds being too dark in 601, it's 709

would be pretty cool if Haali could set a hotkey to switch :D

leeperry

16th December 2007, 00:03

just wanted to add that once your display is D65 calibrated with some serious equipment(I used a spyder2pro), BT601 or 709 becomes crystal clear :D

that's when you have a non-calibrated device that it's just a choice between 1)crappy colors or 2)crappy colors :D

rijnton

18th December 2007, 00:37

Hm, I think I've found a bug. If I play DVDs with Haali renderer, the renderer will always go to default setting on the frame buffer. .

I noticed that too. Does that mean that Haali's renderer actually is not suited for dvd playback ?
And can Haali confirm that it is a bug ?

kutjong

18th December 2007, 01:52

I noticed that too. Does that mean that Haali's renderer actually is not suited for dvd playback ?
And can Haali confirm that it is a bug ?
I sent him a PM about it yesterday. Still waiting for a reply...

KoD

18th December 2007, 10:10

My guess would be that when playing DVDs, the renderer can not use buffering because menu display would not work properly anymore.

rijnton

18th December 2007, 15:07

My guess would be that when playing DVDs, the renderer can not use buffering because menu display would not work properly anymore.

I also asked about it in the CCCP forum and according to the link, given in the last reply, that seems to be right.

TheFluff

18th December 2007, 21:40

It is indeed correct according to Haali himself. Quote from this thread, 20 pages back or so:
In DVD graphs queue size is limited to the minimum, otherwise interactive menus are impossible to use.
(http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=974020&postcount=535)

kutjong

18th December 2007, 23:32

Damn, this means there's no way to use Haali's deinterlacing with dvds.. A 4 frame buffer just isn't enough to render 30 fps as 60 fps.

Shakey_Jake33

19th December 2007, 07:41

I'm not sure what the problem is, I use Haali renderer with DVD's, using Haali's to deinterlace, with no problem.

kutjong

19th December 2007, 13:09

I'm not sure what the problem is, I use Haali renderer with DVD's, using Haali's to deinterlace, with no problem.
Hm, on my desktop PC deinterlacing is smooth, steady 50 fps with only 4-5 ms jitter. My source is a PAL DVD.
On my laptop, the deinterlacing works well also, as long as the video doesn't go fullscreen. When I go fullscreen, only 40 fps is achieved, causing jitter and stuttering.
On my laptop, I have a Core 2 Duo T7200, 2048 MB RAM and a Geforce 7600 Go 256 MB graphics card. My desktop is: Pentium 4 3.2E GHz, 1024 MB RAM and a X800 XT graphics card.

Is the graphics card on my laptop the bottleneck? How fast does your graphics card need to be for smooth deinterlacing??

Edit: My laptop's native resolution is 1680x1050, while on my desktop PC I used 1280x1024, so scaling on my laptop would of course require much more resources. So I changed the resolution on my laptop to 1280x720 and now deinterlacing worked better, 50 fps is achieved, but there is about 20-50 ms jitter (it keeps changing all the time within this range)... On my desktop it was only 4 ms. Do you think this is a problem? I didn't see any stuttering or something like that anyway.

Shakey_Jake33

19th December 2007, 15:20

My spec is a Core2 Extreme X6800, 2GB DDR2 and a GeForce 7900 GTO, desktop resolution 1360x768. No idea what would be the cause for the problems for you tbh, because it just plays DVD's exactly the same as any other media, .vob files too.
I get constant 8ms jitter on everything, all file formats, which is fine.

I am using ffdshow for Mpeg2, with the 'Set interlace flag in output media' ticked and set to bob.

kutjong

19th December 2007, 16:55

I am using ffdshow for Mpeg2, with the 'Set interlace flag in output media' ticked and set to bob.
I'm using the same procedure.

Maybe I should just try different drivers. I'm currently using the 93.71s. Do you recommend any specific drivers for 7000 series?

Shakey_Jake33

19th December 2007, 19:02

Well, I'm using 169.25 =P Quite a fair bit higher.

Haali

19th December 2007, 19:42

kutjong: looks like your video card is not fast enough, deinterlacing in HR is not optimized and uses a lot of memory bandwidth, also the upscaler runs twice per frame, and the amount of work it does is proportional to the destination size (each output pixel is computed separately).

Yong

20th December 2007, 04:28

i got 200ms jitter, and its keep increasing(ffdshow/libmpeg2), tried 1024x768, and native 1680x1050 desktop resolution, same problem, source is NTSC DVD.
my pc spec: amd x2 6000+, ati radeon 2600xt and 2gb of system memory.
the ~200ms jitter still there even just play the vob file with 24 frames buffered.

cca

20th December 2007, 10:55

Question: How did you manage to use the Haali Renderer for DVDs? I never managed to make it work, MPC freezes, and ZoomPlayer says "Macrovision Error". I use Windows Vista x64 with an Nvdia 8800GTS

LoRd_MuldeR

20th December 2007, 11:44

I use MPC (latest builds by CLSID) + ffdshow-tryouts (latest build).
It will also use the "DVD Navigator" filter, but that one ships with Windows/DirectShow.
In ffdshow "Codecs" configuration, set MPEG2 to "libmpeg2" for DVD playback.
Furthermore check "DVD decoding (not working yet)", which can be found below.
Although stated that it does not work yet, it actually does work fine :)

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3026/fileffdshowdvdqe7.th.png (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fileffdshowdvdqe7.png) http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6974/fileffdshowdvd2id8.th.png (http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fileffdshowdvd2id8.png)

Note: I'm on Windows XP Professional x64-Edition, so I cannot say if it works on Vista x64 the same way...

Yong

20th December 2007, 12:10

Question: How did you manage to use the Haali Renderer for DVDs? I never managed to make it work, MPC freezes, and ZoomPlayer says "Macrovision Error". I use Windows Vista x64 with an Nvdia 8800GTS
dont give up that easily :p , yeah i got the error message "Macrovision Fail" in mpc hc too, but it works after the second try lol :rolleyes:

kutjong

20th December 2007, 12:12

Question: How did you manage to use the Haali Renderer for DVDs? I never managed to make it work, MPC freezes, and ZoomPlayer says "Macrovision Error". I use Windows Vista x64 with an Nvdia 8800GTS
I just use MPC, HR, AC3filter and ffdshow's mpeg2lib for dvd playback. No trouble, except that when going from menu to menu the screen will sometimes remain black for about 20 seconds before the selected menu shows up. This doesn't happen with VMR-9.
I'm using win xp though. Maybe HR isn't quite so Vista x64 compatible.

cca

20th December 2007, 15:34

Well, I tried the same setups, no matter what I try, MPC just totally freezes and I have to end task. Haali just won't work with a DVD graph in my setup.

Shakey_Jake33

20th December 2007, 16:51

I use Vista x64, so it does work fine in that! Newest ffdshow tryouts, libmpeg2, DVD Decoding checked. Macrovision error appears when I use ffdshow for AC3/DTS, but not if I use AC3Filter, so I just use that.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9866/clipboard01vt3.th.jpg (http://img135.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard01vt3.jpg)

cca

20th December 2007, 17:03

Hmm, I use reclock as my audio renderer, I wonder if that makes a difference, because I also use AC3Filter for AC3/DTS anyway.

cca

20th December 2007, 19:51

OK, now without reclock, it does not hang, but I always get Macrovision Fail error. Tried multiple times...

Leak

21st December 2007, 11:52

OK, now without reclock, it does not hang, but I always get Macrovision Fail error. Tried multiple times...
Reclock will only work with VMR or Overlay Mixer, so no surprises there...

Rash

22nd December 2007, 17:04

This Macrovision Error is the most random error I've ever seen. I also get it with a certain combination of codecs, but suddenly this combination changes and I have to find a new one. I solved it by using Cyberlink + AC3 filter and EVR Custom Presenter.

Shakey_Jake33

22nd December 2007, 20:34

It does seem to be real random. I used to get it using Cyberlink for Mpeg2, and solved it by using ffdshow libmpeg2. Started happening again, and solved it by disabling ffdshow for AC3/DTS* and using AC3filter (bearing in mind I'm using SPDIF passthrough on both, so it's not even decoding). All is good right now, which is good because I like Haali and prefer it to EVR Custom (EVR Custom gives me that wierd vertical line on some encodes when using Bicubic resize).

*even if the DVD uses LPCM for sound instead of DD/DTS

EDIT - Randomly got the error today, panicked and wanted to cry. Then realised I forgot to tick DVD Decoding in ffdshow when installing the new build. Fixed now - it's so fussy!

Jedd

26th December 2007, 17:54

Yong

27th December 2007, 11:46

Radeon 2600xt, Core2, XP SP2, latest MPC, ffdshow - all fresh install. Just tried Haali renderer (mostly out of curiosity) on my new 1920x1080 screen
1) Whet set to 100% zoom it occupies only half of the screen on 1080p material
2) When 720p is set to full screen - all lines have the horrible jagged edges

None of the above seen in VMR9.

Do I need some special tweaks to make it work? Couldn't find anything on the first page in Q/A.
is the video look like this?
http://xs322.xs.to/xs322/07524/shakugan.jpg
warning: 1mb jpeg file :p

im using 2600xt too, VMR9 Renderless have the same problem but less "lines" than HR and EVR custom presenter.
those lines always and only appear on highlighted area IIRC when the video is zoom to fullscreen mode, especially the video resolution is 720x480.(can anyone confirm this?)

vortex_hl

27th December 2007, 12:41

is the video look like this?
http://xs322.xs.to/xs322/07524/shakugan.jpg
warning: 1mb jpeg file :p

im using 2600xt too, VMR9 Renderless have the same problem but less "lines" than HR and EVR custom presenter.
those lines always and only appear on highlighted area IIRC when the video is zoom to fullscreen mode, especially the video resolution is 720x480.(can anyone confirm this?)

same problem here (hd2600 pro). this problem occurs when re-sizer use pixel shader 2.0.

Shakey_Jake33

29th December 2007, 00:19

I can't actually remember if I've posted this already, apologies if so. This is more about Haali Splitter than Haali Renderer, but they seem to be one and the same package anyway. When installing the Mpeg PS splitter, works fine except for anything with PCM audio, where I get no sound. Works fine using mpc's internal spliter. Dunno if this is a known bug.

Kado

29th December 2007, 03:47

The internal h264 decoder does not decode video in my case. I can see the subtitles though... also whey you configure it the boxes don't remain ticked.

Oops, I posted in the wrong tread... sorry about that.

foxyshadis

29th December 2007, 20:41

Shakey_Jake33

30th December 2007, 01:25

^I guess that's why I didn't find it in this topic when I looked for it! Didn't think to look there tbh!

leeperry

31st December 2007, 13:04

hey guys I've been playing around with EVR on XP SP2, and I was wondering if Haali could check a few things :

1)-provide automatic 601/709 depending on the movie resolution. something like >1000 horizontal pixels : BT709, and <1000 : BT601.

right now, it's my ATI drivers that do this job with EVR, and it's very handy to have it done automatically.

2)-check the BT709 matrix.....because my ATI drivers do not use the same as HR....and theirs looks better IMHO, a bit more yellow/green.

here's with HR in 709 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/119910234672d428.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/72d4282077994)

with HR in 601 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/11991023461bb895.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/1bb8952077995)

with my ATI drivers with EVR in automatic 709 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/11991023471f79f4.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/1f79f42077996)

3)-accepting YV12 as input like EVR, so there's no lossy YV12>YUY2 conversion.

all in all I love HR, but it's very annoying to switch manually between 601/709 when it could be automatic.....and the BT709 matrix doesn't look as natural as the ATI's.

Thank you for your time,

Peuj

1st January 2008, 21:24

New Haali Media Splitter version:

http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

# 29/12/2007

* Fixed items:
o Fixed a glitch in red/blue shift code and extended the maximum shift range

# 26/12/2007

* New Features:
o Added V_MJPEG support
o Implemented slightly faster red/blue planes shift
o Added more stable bicubic upscaling when PS 3 are available
* Fixed items:
o Restored Windows 2000 compatibility
o Fixed audio tracks stopping too early in files with ordered chapters

sarah99

3rd January 2008, 13:28

I have just discovered that versions of Haali splitter after v1.7.189.11 will not allow playback of HD-DVD .EVO files containing MPEG-4 AVC encoded content

For HD-DVDs and the .EVO files
Haali 1.7.401.3 doesn't play MPEG-4 AVC
Haali 1.7.359.22 doesn't play MPEG-4 AVC
Haali 1.7.189.11 does play MPEG-4 AVC

These HD-DVDs include
Transformers, Star Trek, Shooter

leeperry

4th January 2008, 22:43

if only it was possible to make the BT601/709 selection automatic depending on horizontal size........but I guess that's never gonna happen anyhow :(

also, SD movies(512*384 or 640*480) look terribly pixelated with lot of jaggies/interlacing artefacts after a few seconds :o

original size :

http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/1199486552b678ed.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/b678ed2087086)

720p upscale with HR :

http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/119948655273af1f.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/73af1f2087087)

I've tried to play around with the sharpness level to no available.

the OSD says "SS".

720p movies look fine, but the internal bicubic resize of HR looks more like "fast bilinear" to me :confused:

cyberbeing

5th January 2008, 10:44

I also have what seems like the same bug when resizing 640x480 and 640x360 videos in haali renderer and feeding it RGB32 (blocking and jaggedness). I don't get a problem when outputting YV12 or YUY2, resizing to fullscreen, or using a different source resolution other then the two mentioned. Enabling resizing to a different resolution in ffdshow and then disabling it when a video is playing seems to fix the bug temporarily.

The bug seems to have first appeared in the 12/26/2007 build which was the one haali introduced "more stable PS3.0 bicubic upscaling" and I would assume that is what is to blame considering my video card (7800GTX 512) supports PS3.0. The 11/18/2007 build of dxr.dll doesn't have this bug.

leeperry

5th January 2008, 10:59

yeah I think this is the same bug

I use HR in YUY2 on XP SP2 on a ATI HD2600 PCI-E, using 7.11 WHQL drivers

as soon as the internal bicubic resizer is used, I get very ugly video quality.

it's always been the case, but I thought that was my videocard drivers doing an awful job.

Rash

7th January 2008, 16:28

OK I've tested extensively all the renderers available, you simply can't beat HR butter smoothness.
That's interesting. Here EVR is much smoother than HR.

leeperry

7th January 2008, 16:49

yes you're right.

actually EVR is using some amazing process that gives a stronger 3D depth impression than any other renderer.

EVR support in KMPlayer was very poor, so my tests results were flawed.

in MPC HC, EVR looks smooth as butter and most impressive.

and with EVR, I can let my videocard drivers manage the BT601/709 issue automatically..........which is really great too :D

Rash

7th January 2008, 16:55

I believe that's because we're talking about EVR Custom. As far as I know, the player itself takes care of the rendering in this case. So it is not surprising that EVR Custom is different on two different players.

I had forgotten you use KMPlayer. I use MPC. ;)

kutjong

20th January 2008, 17:21

Any chance of getting improvements on DVD playback? I mean, can't the buffer go up once you start to play the movie and then go back to 4 frames in menus? If you open up a sinlge .vob of the main movie, buffering works normally, and deinterlacing is butter smooth on my laptop. With a 4 frame buffer, it's not capable of this. :(

leeperry

20th January 2008, 17:25

it's meant to be like this to provide perfect compatiblity with the "DVD Navigator" filter.

iron2000

20th January 2008, 17:40

For one of my lower quality XVID video EVR shows them with faded colors while HR maintains the same "black is not grey" colors.

Seems like aside from HQ H264 files, the colors seem faded in EVR.
Even in HQ files, HR produces more natural colors to me, like in HR red looks red but in EVR its a bit bright a little near orange.

With all the colors thingy, I don't know which should be the true colors anymore.

For the ATI driver, I only have the driver installed.
Didn't install the CCC.

kutjong

20th January 2008, 19:06

it's meant to be like this to provide perfect compatiblity with the "DVD Navigator" filter.
Yes, I know that, but why can't the buffer be upped when you start playing the main movie? If I open the main movie manually in MPC, the buffer is at my preffered 128 MB and deinterlacing works perfectly. If I play the main movie through the menus, it will play with a 4 frame buffer and deinterlacing is choppy. Does the DVD navigator require the buffer to be at 4 frames even during main movie playback?

clsid

20th January 2008, 22:33

I assume the problem is that there is no way for the renderer to detect whether you are viewing a menu or the movie at any given point in time.

Perhaps a key combo could be added that allows a user to manually override the buffer limitation. Navigate the menu, start the menu, hit key combo, enjoy.

CruNcher

21st January 2008, 08:30

Haali i get a Problem with your Splitter and Cyberlinks Decoder it seems to not accept Matroskas AR and also doesn't get the Bitstreams (AVC) SAR and so fallsback to 1:1 playback :(
With CoreAVC 1.6 and your Splitter ofcourse there aren't such problems. Ok i found out that Mkvmerge strips the bitstreams sar away so it's not a bug.

CruNcher

30th January 2008, 10:59

Haali could you please add into the Splitter configuration the default extensions that are by standard used in your splitter like .EVO so the user can disable your Splitter for a given extension easily?

fastplayer

1st February 2008, 19:54

Using the Haali renderer, MPC zooms a 352x264 DivX5 video to 200% upon start. Zooming it back to 100% via ALT+2 doesn't work. Auto-zoom is set to 100% in MPC though (Options --> Playback). This doesn't happen with anyone of the other renderers, so I guess this is HR-related. :confused:
I'm using the latest Haali version, clsid's latest MPC build with its internal AVI splitter and ffdshow build 1827. This is on XP with a Radeon X800GTO and the latest CAT drivers.

Link to video (15,7MB):
http://www.slobodnadalmacija.hr/20051203/images/ciovo.avi

Edit: Happens on other files with similar resolution too (MPEG1 352x240). Zooming "back" to 50% in MPC sets the resolution to its original size.

Adub

1st February 2008, 20:52

Check your ffdshow settings. Make sure it isn't causing the zoom. The renderer shouldn't be doing anything that increases your video size.

fastplayer

1st February 2008, 21:04

Check your ffdshow settings. Make sure it isn't causing the zoom. The renderer shouldn't be doing anything that increases your video size.
Resize & aspect is disabled. Only thing that is enabled, is subtitles support.

Can you or anyone else at least reproduce the issue?

Edit: Should've searched harder...
Video size that the player sees is adjusted to make the window fit inside the screen (I hate large windows that are not entirely visible). Same thing happens with smaller clips, they are enlarged to be at least 400x300.

Miryan

7th February 2008, 00:26

Maybe someone can help, its a little bit odd. Haali renderer does some tearing on my MPC HC, but, in Kmplayer: No tearing, everything is fine. What did I do wrong with MPC?

MasterNobody

7th February 2008, 01:40

As I known, Haali Render almost never drop frames and in most situation it is good. But there are situations when I prefer the render drop frames instead of trying to play video at increased fps for jitter compensation (synchronization with audio) because it need smaller CPU/GPU time and so compensate it quicker without the risk of further jitter increase. So I ask to make the option to allow frame dropping when jitter exceeds some threshold (user editable), for example 1000 ms. May be I am wrong and this never will help than explain me why.

Shinigami-Sama

7th February 2008, 09:51

hmm
I've noticed people mentioning how HR is supposed to be better than VRM9, however when ever I use HR(grabbed the latest splitter a week or two ago) it uses 5-40% more CPU, normally 15% more on both ASP/AVC content, anime and film
I did a quick run through this thread and didn't noticed an answer

this is on an AMD 3500+ newcastle @ 2.2ghz with a 200M, MPC-HC from a month and a half ago give or take a week
it also tears more on certain 3d sequences
I have yet to try EVR though...

chros

7th February 2008, 11:55

@Shinigami-Sama: and on what video card?

Shinigami-Sama

7th February 2008, 21:20

@Shinigami-Sama: and on what video card?

this is on an AMD 3500+ newcastle @ 2.2ghz with a 200M, MPC-HC

so
ATI mobility 200m

chros

8th February 2008, 09:50

ATI mobility 200m
Hhmmm ...
http://www.notebookcheck.net/ATI-Radeon-Xpress-200M.2175.0.html

"ATI Radeon Xpress 200M is the shared memory integrated graphic card from ATI. It is a derivate of the Mobility Radeon X300 graphic card, but slower because of the lack of own memory and slower clock speed."

Maybe that's the problem: shared memory !
If it's the case, you should use another renderer ...

Shinigami-Sama

8th February 2008, 10:14

Hhmmm ...
http://www.notebookcheck.net/ATI-Radeon-Xpress-200M.2175.0.html

"ATI Radeon Xpress 200M is the shared memory integrated graphic card from ATI. It is a derivate of the Mobility Radeon X300 graphic card, but slower because of the lack of own memory and slower clock speed."

Maybe that's the problem: shared memory !
If it's the case, you should use another renderer ...

only when in UDM mode
its in sideport ( on-chip memory )
128megs dedicated on chip memory

bmcgs

11th February 2008, 13:03

Hi there everyone, first post on this excelent forum!

I'm running Zoomplayer 5.02 with XP Pro + SP2 and I've tried HR to check if it could solve my problem but it didn't.

When playing any kind of movie (mpeg4, mpeg2, h.264) the HR crashes Zoomplayer in fullscreen only. It also happens with VMR9 renderless (which I guess it could be normal since Zoomplayer indicates it is experimental). Overlay (mixer or not) in full screen doesn't fill the screen with the movie, only a small part. Only VMR9 Windowed mode works flawlessly.

From what I've read it seems that HR is the best renderer. So, I guess could it be my problem only but I'm really hoping that it might be something else! :)

Codecs installed : besides the default ones, Haali media splitter, ffdshow latest version, Core AVC, DScaler 0.0.8, XVid 1.1.3 and DirectVobsub. Zoomplayer is configured for Smartplay, Dscaler for mpeg2 sources + ffdshow postprocessing, CoreAVC for h.264 and vc-1 sources and ffdshow audio and video for everything else. Let me highlight the fact that every single movie crashes using HR or VMR9 renderless.

My video card is a 8800 GT with the latest WHQL drivers.

Can someone help me? Thanks!