Haali Renderer

[bmcgs]

Sorry for the typo, it is really the 169.21! :)

I'll check it out tonight at home but I'm pretty sure that VMR9 renderless might be a problem of only ZP, but I remember that HR also crashes with MPC. I use ZP because I can have specific graphs for specific file formats and also because I cannot disable the resize function in MPC when using VMR, otherwise I'd use it... I'll get back as soon as I have a conclusion.

One last thing I'd like to know - besides the video card drivers, is there anything else that might interfere with your renderer? Codecs, DirectShow merits, etc?... And finally, the beta version of the nvidia drivers it seems that it aims to upgrade the SLI performance in crisys...

Thank you!

[clsid]

If a DirectShow filter would be the cause then typically the problems would occur with all video renderers, not just specific renderers.

Changelogs for the drivers are always very incomplete. Just try the driver. If it doesn't solve the problem, then you can also revert back to 169.21.

[bmcgs]

Hi there! You were absolutely right, the new beta drivers don't cause any problems in full screen using HR or VMR9! Thank you very much for your answer.

One question that I wasn't able to see in this long thread - you use bicubic resizing in the renderer to the resolution of the screen, if I understood correctly.

So I guess that someone who uses ffdshow to resize could bypass this option in this filter (if one doesn't want to apply different resize algorithms or filters afterwards). Is it possible to tell the renderer to respect (or not) aspect ratio of the video being rendered on the fly or at least previously?

[B.Slisk]

Haali renderer will not resize a video stream if it has the same resolution as the screen output.

So if you resize to the same resolution as the desktop using ffdshow then Haali renderer wont do a bicubic resize when you play it to full screen.

If you need to change the aspect ratio I suggest you use ffdshow to do so. AFAIK Haali renderer does not have an option to enable or disable aspect ratio correction, so changes to aspect ratio will have to be done earlier in the chain.

[bmcgs]

Ok, i'll do that with ffdshow then. Nevertheless resizing to the same resolution as the screen is ok if you have the option to respect the original aspect ratio or not. Notice that with ZP it is easier to build a custom graph and add ffdshow raw filter after any mpeg2 decoder, something I wasn't able to do with MPC or WMP.

Perhaps there is something I missed during these tryouts but I abandoned MPC due to the resize issue of not respecting AR.

[leeperry]

any chance getting some feedback from Haali on this one :)

or if I force RGB32HQ BT601 from ffdshow for SD material, and keep HR in BT709 with YUY2 frames......would that work out nicely ?

I was wondering if Haali could check a few things :

1)-provide automatic 601/709 depending on the movie resolution. something like >1000 horizontal pixels : BT709, and <1000 : BT601.

right now, it's my ATI drivers that do this job with EVR, and it's very handy to have it done automatically.

2)-check the BT709 matrix.....because my ATI drivers do not use the same as HR....and theirs looks better IMHO, a bit more yellow/green.

here's with HR in 709 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/119910234672d428.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/72d4282077994)

with HR in 601 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/11991023461bb895.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/1bb8952077995)

with my ATI drivers with EVR in automatic 709 :
http://thumbnails.keepmyfile.com/42/11991023471f79f4.gif (http://www.keepmyfile.com/image/1f79f42077996)

3)-accepting YV12 as input like EVR, so there's no lossy YV12>YUY2 conversion.

all in all I love HR, but it's very annoying to switch manually between 601/709 when it could be automatic.....and the BT709 matrix doesn't look as natural as the ATI's.

Thank you for your time,

[KAnycTA]

I am using MPC HC with haali renderer (vsfilter.dll autoload - on) and when i am playing .mkv or .ogm file with internal subtitles they are selected by default. Is it possible to set external subtitles by default?

[flyersfan1970]

I built a new PC and installed Vista x64 - it's driving me nuts.

I can't seem to figure out how to get MPC to work with Haali and play a DVD (either from disc or from the hdd) without the "Macrovision fail" error. I wouldn't care so much if I didn't need subtitles - they don't work at all with any other renderer.

If someone can explain exactly how to get Haali to work, or to get subtitles working on a DVD with another renderer in MPC, I'd really appreciate it.

[Mangix]

use a different decoder? ffdshow with the DVD Decoding option works wonderfully

[flyersfan1970]

use a different decoder? ffdshow with the DVD Decoding option works wonderfully

I get the same "DVD: Macrovision fail" error.

To be sure I'm doing this right - I've unchecked MPEG-2 video in the Internal filters section of MPC. I have CCCP installed so I open the ffdshow video decoder configuration, select MPEG2 in the codec options, change it to either libavcodec or libmpeg2, and check the DVD decoding box.

Mangix - are you also running Vista x64? I can't help but wonder if that's my stumbling block.

For now I just open .IFO files with WMP11. Subtitles and all other DVD functionality works fine.

[Mangix]

nope. i have 32-bit vista

[Ingram]

Vista doesn't seem to like Haali for DVD's. I get the same error. Works with EVR. But when I try Haali Renderer I get the macrovision error on a disc that doesn't even have Macrovision.

Go figure.

[Peuj]

same for me.

[pancserzso]

There is a but with MPC-HC + Haali when playing DVD's, in XP. It simply shutters a lot. The frames are always set to 4.
Doesn't matter what I do, it goes back to 4 after I click OK.

No problem with avi's, mkv's using the same combination.

[Yong]

dvd playback work for me with HVR, only if im using ffdshow for dvd playback + hardware deinterlacing :p

other decoders like microsoft mpeg2 decoder, mpc internal mpeg2 decoder and cyberlink dvd decoder will get "Macrovision Fail" on mpc-hc :(

[chros]

New version is out today ! Thank, Haali!

changelog: http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

[vortex_hl]

New version is out today ! Thank, Haali!

changelog: http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/
ghost lines issue still there. :(
it's not hard to fix. only some coefficients need to change.

http://mpc-hc.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/mpc-hc?view=rev&revision=380

[leeperry]

yes, indeed still a lot of ghost lines when SS resize is done, with an HD2600 on XP :(

doesn't seem to occur with AA resize.

I've talked to Casimir666, he told me that he changed something in the PS resize of MPC HC from 1.0 to 0.98 and they disappeared ?!

it seems that the PS resizes of MPC were written by Haali.

anyhow, HR is smoother than ever.........even than EVR :)

hope Haali can fix the ghost lines :(

thanks for all your hard work Haali!

[Kado]

There is a but with MPC-HC + Haali when playing DVD's, in XP. It simply shutters a lot. The frames are always set to 4.
Doesn't matter what I do, it goes back to 4 after I click OK.

No problem with avi's, mkv's using the same combination.

It's not a bug, the renderer forces the minimum possible settings otherwise the DVD menus would not work.

@Haali

Thanks for this new build!

[leeperry]

this is NN(no resizing from HR) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/b/9/c/211678e1e848468f925b3d7329c24tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/b/9/c/211678e1e848468f925b3d7329c24.html)

this is SS(bicubic PS resize) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/7/e/5/b81b2569d33639dc8c0f276cab4e8tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/7/e/5/b81b2569d33639dc8c0f276cab4e8.html)

AA is not affected.

or if you could just disable the "S" resize so "A" is always used instead ?

or give an option to choose, because it seems that S works fine on nvidia, but not on ATi :(

it would be awesome if you could fix it Haali :thanks:

[pancserzso]

It's not a bug, the renderer forces the minimum possible settings otherwise the DVD menus would not work.


OK, I understand.

I think there is still a bug, but it is with MPC, if i just drag and drop a video_ts folder then sometime it's shuttering, if I open from the file menu, then not.

In the future, I think you could implement a different way for menu buffering, for example to manually disable buffering at all using a keystroke for example. Even with 4 frames it's still slow as hell compared to other renderers, and for the movie part it could be more than 4 frames.

[TheShadowRunner]

Haali installer is absolutely horrible.
Screws with icons association, adds "play" in context menu and associates mkv, ogm and all selected types to be played with WMP.
I really wish it came in a ZIP file with 2 or 3 .bat files to register needed filters/dlls and that's it.
Each time I install a new Haali, i must clean up the mess for 20 minutes :/

[fastplayer]

Haali installer is absolutely horrible.
I complained a few times about that but it has fallen on deaf ears unfortunately... :(
You should've posted in here by the way:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=80762

[iron2000]

Regarding the auto colorspace selection.
If the video is upscaled by ffdshow, will the auto selection work properly?

Haali upscaling really sucks on my PC, theres this ghost grid on the scaled picture. Downscaling is fine.

[cyberbeing]

Regarding the auto colorspace selection.
If the video is upscaled by ffdshow, will the auto selection work properly?

Haali upscaling really sucks on my PC, theres this ghost grid on the scaled picture. Downscaling is fine.

If it's upscaled to above 1024 in width, the answer to that would be no. Anytime your resize with ffdshow, Haali renderer uses whatever you resize it to as the new source dimensions. The VMR renderers behave the same way afaik.

[chros]

Regarding the auto colorspace selection.
If the video is upscaled by ffdshow, will the auto selection work properly?
It's a good catch ! I haven't thought of it ...
But, it can't be perfect: think of a standard resolution (640*352) xvid hdtv rip ...

[leeperry]

use RGB32/BT601 for upscaled SD

ok I got friggin sick of tired of the buggy EVR support in MPC HC(randomly missing the VSYNC after 30/60'), I'm back with HR on KMPlayer.......it simply works :D

hope Haali can offer an option to switch between PS and AF in his renderer, so we can switch it off for ATi cards.....in order to get rid of the ghost lines :)

[Hary]

Is there a way now to get rid of this ghost lines, or does it has to be fixed in renderer?

[rijnton]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before, but doing a quick search I couldn't find anything related in this thread.
I use Haali's Video Renderer in combination with MPC (Home Cinema) also for DVD playback and it works fine, except for the menus in a lot of dvd's. I mean, when I open a dvd I get the menu and have to select, for instance, "Play", or "Special Features" with the cursor. But when I click on the menu item, nothing happens. The only way to select it is by right clicking in MPC and choose Navigate>Jump To and select the title. When I change the video renderer in MPC to Overlay Mixer instead of HVR however, then the menus do work. Is there something I can do to get it working in HVR ?

[leeperry]

ALT+cursor keys and space ;)

that's because the DVD navigator DLL is not properly used in MPC HC I think.

[rijnton]

ALT+cursor keys and space ;)



Thanks leeperry. Woks great indeed.

But why don't I have this problem when I use Overlay Mixer instead of HVR ? (Btw, I do prefer HVR).

[leeperry]

I like EVR because it does unsharp masking....which HR doesn't do.

but the EVR support in MPC HC is not stable at all.....so if only Haali could fix the ghost lines problems, that would be MARVELOUS :)

I'm big enough to do unsharp masking in ffdshow :D

well MPC HC doesn't "map" the DVD menus properly with HR or EVR.....god knows why :D

[wiak]

use RGB32/BT601 for upscaled SD

ok I got friggin sick of tired of the buggy EVR support in MPC HC(randomly missing the VSYNC after 30/60'), I'm back with HR on KMPlayer.......it simply works :D

hope Haali can offer an option to switch between PS and AF in his renderer, so we can switch it off for ATi cards.....in order to get rid of the ghost lines :)
:stupid:
the lines are annoying on ati cards, i have a HD 3200 onboard graphics card (yes its a Onboard graphics card not a IGP) :P
i get the same on a 3870 and an X1800 if i can recall

please fix it!it happend some months ago and it affects ALL ati cards and its bad.

[KoD]

What ghost lines? I don't see anything like that here. Are you sure it's not caused by something else you guys are using?

[leeperry]

well they are ghosts, you're not supposed to see them if you don't call them 3 times in a row watching a bathroom mirror :D

open HR OSD, if you have an ATi card you will get them if any of the 2 letters of the resize is S(internal bicubic PS resize).

see here : http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1119336&postcount=1020

also the BT.709 matrix of HR is not saturated enough, but I use RGB32 to overcome this problem :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1081395&postcount=971

it's not yellow enough I think.....the ATi drivers and ffdshow give the same results..........HR is less saturated.

[iron2000]

I have those ghost lines too, for a long time.
Its been mentioned here many times before.

Using ATI HD2600Pro.
I just use ffdshow's resize, ghost lines for MPC and HR resizers as they are written by the same person.

[leeperry]

I also resize w/ ffdshow, but I can't use the pan&scan options of MPC/KMP as they kick in the PS resize of HR :(

[leeperry]

anyone ever getting a corrupt mouse pointer randomly on XP SP2 with HR and an ATi card ?

never happened w/ EVR.

I got HR set to 256 mb/256 frames...and my graphic card is 256 mb

maybe that's the problem :D

gonna try with 200/200 :eek:

[Kado]

@leeperry
I recommend a setting of 128mb and 120frames for your system.
After some testing with my previous card (6800gs 256mb) if I put anything over 140mb it would drop frames on the heavier parts of the video stream but with 128mb It would run smooth. Now with my 9800gtx 512mb even with 256mb runs ok. The problem maybe was the vista's video memory management, it uses both dedicated and system memory for graphics even if your gpu does not have that "turbo cache" stuff from nvidia that makes the gpu use additional system memory for graphics! Or maybe not!

[cyberbeing]

also the BT.709 matrix of HR is not saturated enough, but I use RGB32 to overcome this problem :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1081395&postcount=971

it's not yellow enough I think.....the ATi drivers and ffdshow give the same results..........HR is less saturated.

FFDshow BT.709 conversion HQ-RGB32 output, Haali (1920x1080 3MB png)
http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/RGB_thumb.png (http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/rgbv2.png)

FFDshow YUY2 output, Haali BT.709 conversion (1920x1080 3MB png)
http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/yuy2_thumb.png (http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/yuy2v2.png)

I have an nVidia 7800GTX 512 and you would be hard pressed to see much of a difference between those images (edit: they are now identical frames). That tells me that Haali Renderer and FFDshow use a standard method for BT.709 conversion. I would say that what your seeing either has something to do with LUT (if your display is calibrated) or your ATI hardware is doing BT.709 conversion incorrectly.

[leeperry]

well in my tests, ffdshow and the ATi drivers use the exact same 709 matrix....but HR is not as saturated :devil:

my displays(19" iiyama CRT and HC3100 Mitsubishi DLP pj) are carefully D65 calibrated with an Eye One Display 2 sensor + ARGYLLCMS/Color.HCFR

your screenshots look nice, but the colors are not saturated at all.

I could run more tests with that scene from Final Fantasy Advent Children(and make a sample so you can see it w/ your own eyes) but well, does it matter ?.....coz Haali doesn't care, and a quick fix is to output RGB32 from ffdshow :D

this would already be a god's gift to finally get a fix for the ghost lines on ATi....I've been whining about that since forever :(

@Kado: thanks for the tip, just tried your suggested settings with Reclock in 24.000fps + pstrip in 48.000Hz

this was smoother than E-V-E-R with KMPlayer :eek:

hopefully this will also fix my mouse pointer random corruption :)

[cyberbeing]

well in my tests, ffdshow and my ATi drivers use the exact same 709 matrix....and HR is not as saturated.

my displays(19" iiyama CRT and HC3100 Mitsubishi DLP pj) are carefully D65 calibrated with an Eye One Display 2 sensor + ARGYLLCMS/Color.HCFR

you screenshots look nice, but the colors are not saturated at all.


Well it is a static frame except for the light on top which flickers and I didn't notice they weren't the same until I posted. I updated the images in my previous post to be the same frame and the new file names are rgbv2.png and yuy2v2.png.

Here is another screen shot using FFDshow HQ-RGB BT.709 and EVR:
http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/evrrgb_thumb.png (http://cyberbeing.extra.hu/evrrgb.png)
It also looks virtually identical to the other two.

Haali Renderer takes calibration (LUT) into effect but EVR probably doesn't where you are seeing the difference (nVidia hardware for example only takes lut into effect for RGB but not YV12 and YUY2 on VMR/EVR renderers afaik). What you are calling unsaturated colors are actually your calibrated and accurate colors while the saturated colors are uncalibrated colors. I should also note that when you output YV12 to Haali renderer it converts to YUY2 in hardware (because it doesn't support YV12) so maybe that's why you see a difference.

[leeperry]

all the renderers take the LUT into consideration, except for OVERLAY.

and the difference is identical on my HC3100 pj, which is calibrated through its own menus.....I send a regular LUT on its HDMI input.

anyway, HR doesn't accept YV12 AT ALL.....my player will revert to another renderer if I don't send YUY2 or RGB32.

I could make a sample....but as I said, Haali doesn't give a damn anyway :D

[cyberbeing]

Your right about the YV12 and LUT thing. VSFilter was doing a conversion from YV12 to YUY2 and I just did a test and LUT does seem to be working properly on VMR renders (they must have fixed it in a recent driver because it was an issue a year or so ago).

All I'm saying is that the issue doesn't exist with my 7800GTX 512 on my calibrated Sony GDM-F520 (reference quality CRT monitor) connected via BNC. FFDShow, Haali Renderer, and nVidia hardware BT.709 conversion are all identical and there is no noticeable difference of brightness, saturation, color, or gamma between any of them. That makes your problem look like either an ATI specific issue or some configuration problem on your end.

Remember that Haali is just one guy and he probably isn't all that thrilled with the idea of spending who knows how many hours to try to work around all the problems that recent ATI hardware is causing with his renderer especially considering this isn't his full time job and is something he's doing for free (probably originally for his own use but decided to share it with everyone). I'm sure it doesn't really motivate him when he hears you say he doesn't give a damn. Kindness and patience can go a long way. If Haali can reproduce the problem then I'm sure he will get around to fixing the problem eventually. Now if he can't reproduce it or he doesn't own an ATI card then I think hopes of him fixing it anytime soon would be slim.

[leeperry]

there's a saturation difference between ffdshow in RGB32/BT709 and HR in YUY2/BT709.

not related to my graphic card because HR is seen as a 3D application, and not a video renderer to my ATi drivers.....

I could make a sample so you can see it for yourself :D

Haali is known to be THE first rate expert when it comes to PC video rendering.....hence his renderer that talks directly to the graphic card and offers the smoothest playback on PC ever(matched w/ Reclock + pstrip) :eek:

his PS script for bicubic resizing didn't work with ATi in MPC, and neither does it in HR.

some funky incompatibility with the new ATi drivers :(

anyhow, Casimir666 fixed it easily in MPC HC(after I harassed him repeatedly :D ) by changing a PS sum from 1.0 to 0.98....then the ghost lines disappeared

if Haali could offer an option to disable the built-in PS resize and let the AF do the upscaling job(as it does already for downscaling)...........that would be the shiznit :eek:

I've been telling Haali for this issue since forever :(

[clsid]

Everyone that experiences this problem should report it to ATi. If enough people complain, then maybe they will finally fix their drivers.

[leeperry]

arfster has been contacting them for PC/TV range issues............they are making a foul of him :eek:

AMD is on a tight rope at this point, their goal is to improve their 3DMark and Crysis scores I guess :D

[Shinigami-Sama]

Everyone that experiences this problem should report it to ATi. If enough people complain, then maybe they will finally fix their drivers.

isn't ATI laying off 10% of their staff this quarter?
if so I kinda doubt it...

[clsid]

I can imagine that they get hundreds of bogus bug reports. So the key is to make a report that stands out of the rest. Maybe include those few lines of shader code from MPC (with original parameters, before the 'workaround') that trigger the bug. That code is the same, at at least similar to what is used in Haali's renderer.

[leeperry]

problem is the same in KMPlayer if you enable the PS2.0 bicubic resize...........considering it's a hack of MPC, it's pretty logical :D

anyway I like HR because it's smooth, but EVR does very nice unsharp masking, that literally makes the picture jump off the screen :eek:

look how sharp EVR is (it's a thumbnail) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/c/d/7/6cd26ab6a8e899b920e48a092a471tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/c/d/7/6cd26ab6a8e899b920e48a092a471.html)

[leeperry]

ok, so following this :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1081395&postcount=971

here's a 6 mb sample of this 1080p movie(w/o audio) :
http://www.badongo.com/file/9184496

RGB32HQ/BT.709 from ffdshow / YUY2 BT.601 in HR / YUY2 BT.709 in HR :

http://thumbnails5.imagebam.com/580/968c2e5796963.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/968c2e5796963) http://thumbnails5.imagebam.com/580/f087ef5796964.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f087ef5796964) http://thumbnails5.imagebam.com/580/122ca75796966.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/122ca75796966)

HR in YUY2/BT.709 is still less saturated than EVR+ATi drivers in YV12 and/or ffdshow RGB32HQ/BT.709 :rolleyes:

another bug, if I go into the HR options while playing this sample/full movie(w/o resize in ffdshow), I get this :

http://pix.nofrag.com/a/3/6/a70670c870844aba3f1f78fdc4f77tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/a/3/6/a70670c870844aba3f1f78fdc4f77.html)

[cyberbeing]

Well your right, they aren't exactly the same. I took a few sample points on the face in photoshop and compared the difference. The numbers in the image below are on a range from 0-225 (R=Red, G=Green, B=Blue). Haali renderer has a 1 less green in all the sample points, 1 more blue in half the sample points, and 1 more red in half the sample points. Even though the difference in color is pretty minor I can see a difference in that clip. Maybe Haali renderer is rounding off a decimal place on the coefficients or whatever it uses for RGB conversion was built with a focus on speed and as a result is not very accurate.

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/3830/differenceon8.png

Haali BT.709
http://thumbnails6.imagebam.com/581/7775325800326.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/7775325800326)

FFDShow BT.709
http://thumbnails6.imagebam.com/581/d8a70d5800327.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/d8a70d5800327)

[leeperry]

yeah it's less green, definitely.

do you also get the same bug I get when you enter the HR options with this movie ?

[cyberbeing]

yeah it's less green, definitely.

do you also get the same bug I get when you enter the HR options with this movie ?

Yeah, I saw something like that happen as well except mine was split about half-way up and had only two broken things on the bottom instead of four.

[cyberbeing]

Alternative Matroska Splitter is the thread for Haali's splitter.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=80762

[leeperry]

to get back on the EVR/HR compare, it's like HR would be "Picture A" and EVR would be "Picture B" :
http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm

I use unsharp masking@33 in ffdshow in RGB32.

HR looks more natural(more details due to not being oversharpened?!) and EVR's got that stunning 3D look(because it does some sort of unsharp masking even further)..........it's a tough choice to choose between "natural" and "unsharpened to death" :eek:

[leeperry]

here's a very good test video :
http://www.badongo.com/file/9239271

It's a panning 23.976fps scene, that's poorly encoded.........so if it's not played perfectly smoothly, it exhibits tearing/blinking.

so far only HR+Reclock play it well several times in a row in 24fps@48hz...

[duckyy]

OK, Just a quick message to add myself in the "I love HR smoothness but I have an ATI card so I have to switch back to EVR to watch SD because of ghost lines" group.

I have like a lot of other ATI owners horizontal and vertical lines when I upscale an SD file using HR PS scheme.

http://pix.nofrag.com/7/4/4/d41a22b05140f43a7384ff45c3875tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/7/4/4/d41a22b05140f43a7384ff45c3875.html)

It's very easy to notice it on this capture. Around Thom Yorke's letters (and guy's face also).
The number of lines depends on the resolution. This file is for example 720*480.

Currently using an MSI 2600Pro and hate to switch to EVR (plus change input/output in ffdshow, etc etc).

Another bug maybe: I have a few .ts files containing MPEG-2 @ 17Mbps+ and combo HR + ffdshow YUY2 only use one thread in my P4HT. So the audio gets out of synch. If I block ffdshow, everything's fine. Shouldn't be an HR issue, but just in case somebody else experienced the same thing.

[Seb.26]

:mad: ... lot of lines here too when PS resize is applied ...
( Saphire ATI HD3470 inside )

@Haali : why don't add an option to choose the PS mode :
> bicubic resize ( like today )
> bilinear resize + sharpen ( a simple 2D convolution ie. )

This could be really great ! :)

HR is so smoooooooth ... :p

[leeperry]

haha Seb.26 :D

so you've followed my advice and finally given up on EVR and its crappy MPC HC presenter ? :D

with Reclock @24fps and pstrip in 48.000 Hz, nothing can possibly match HR smoothness :)

well if you open HR OSD, you can see "AA", "SS" or "NN"

A is Anisotropic Filtering, used for downscaling
S is the internal PS bicubic resize, used for upscaling.....with the ghost lines problem on ATi
N is Neutral

one letter for horizontal, one for vertical

if Haali could offer an option to choose between S and A for upscaling, that would be awesome as S seems to work fine with nvidia.

a simple fix for ATi has been made to MPC HC, by changing a PS sum from 1.0 to 0.98

hopefully Haali can work something out....some day :(

[Seb.26]

haha Seb.26 :D
so you've followed my advice and finally given up on EVR and its crappy MPC HC presenter ? :D
:rolleyes: ... I use HR since 2K6 little boy ... :p ...

Where I follow you is to KMP ... and you were right : it's better than MPCHC by far ! ... and so smooth ...
( to much things embeded IMO, but smooth and have skin ! ... )

[leeperry]

well, HR is so smooth.....but EVR has that amazing 3D look that makes everything literally jump out of the screen :eek:

I love to watch 100% smooth movies, but I quickly get bored if everything doesn't look 3D like with EVR.

so I'm using EVR in KMP, not as smooth as HR....but a lot smoother than EVR in MPC HC, which is sluggish to say the least :(

you can run KMP in "highspeed mode", it disables all the embedded crap ;)

EDIT : ah well **** this, what's the point to watch stuttering movies, I'm back w/ HR and its uber-smoothness :eek:

[leeperry]

ok it seems that what gives that 3D stunning look to EVR......is actually the ATi drivers :eek:

it also works with the built-in Direct3D renderers of KMPlayer.

why not HR ? :(

that makes me a sad panda... http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:3yzn4X3GixPPGM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e9/306panda.gif

[noee]

ok it seems that what gives that 3D stunning look to EVR......is actually the ATi drivers :eek:

What do you mean here?

[leeperry]

well, it also works with VMR9, but a lot less 3D like.

I'm trying some registry hacks on CCC with HR, and it seems to yield good results.

I'll keep you guys posted, I need to run more tests on the projector.

[leeperry]

ok you tell me what you think now :)

just FYI I've got CCC from the 7.11 crysis, and the 8.4 drivers on a PCI-E HD2600.

so in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\

replace every occurence of Denoise_NA and Detail_NA to 0 instead of 1

then you will the Edge Enhancement slider in CCC(I've got it in 2 places, in avivo video/advanced setttings/ and in avivo video/all settings/)

also enable cataclyst AI in the 3D settings.

I can't choose if it's better on 95 or 100 at this point, need to try on the pj

but then HR is a lot sharper, and just as 3D as EVR....I think :D

[noee]

I will try. I also found the following:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ati2mtag\Device1
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ati2mtag\Device2
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\ati2mtag\Device3

I changed those too.

[leeperry]

Improved Edge Enhancement
Using a combination hardware and software algorithm, Radeon products are now equipped to use a dynamic edge filter that adds sharpness to images, which improves “soft” encodings.

I like the way you quickly get hooked to luxury :D

I find myself seeking several times in a row to achieve <3 ms jitter, who can live with 10ms :D

on MPC HC with EVR I was getting 50/80 ms on average, and it looked....jerky :eek:

these are thumbnails to the original 720p files, with EE set to the max.

yes I'm gonna lower it....a tad :D

http://pix.nofrag.com/9/c/f/6cd34b44bdb7bf0e637695aa0f63dtt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/9/c/f/6cd34b44bdb7bf0e637695aa0f63d.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/1/8/0/f5f4a7819bdd5a32e3cff132b5b2ftt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/1/8/0/f5f4a7819bdd5a32e3cff132b5b2f.html)

[Seb.26]

I can't choose if it's better on 95 or 100 at this point, need to try on the pj
I'm surprised that you don't try this >100 by tweaking the MAX value ... :p

[leeperry]

well I applied tons of registry hacks at the same time.

I think the working one is actually this :

create a "EdgeEnhance" REG_SZ value in all the ATi keys in HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Video\

but too much EE is evil :
http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm

hurts your eyes/head, like Lanczos10 :D

I think a good value for HR is around 20 or 30.......0 is just plain too "flat" :eek:

[kutjong]

Is it only the Radeon HD series that support this tweak?

[arfster]

on MPC HC with EVR I was getting 50/80 ms on average, and it looked....jerky :eek:


Yikes, that's atrocious - any idea what was causing it? I use MPCHC+Vista+2600xt, and don't have any such problems. MPC stats show 0ms avg jitter, EVR custom's stats via ctrl-j say 1.5ms max.

[Seb.26]

Is it only the Radeon HD series that support this tweak?
From memory, lee have a 2600XT ... ;)

[leeperry]

@kutjong :
not sure, also x1x00 I think.
still experimenting at this point, as I've made a LOT of registry hacks lately.

@arfster :
well, please allow me to doubt it :)

if you calculate the difference between the first and the second figure, you get something between 30 and 80 ms on average with .net3 EVR on XP SP2 :

http://pix.nofrag.com/8/d/2/f5753e2dfec5b496d18da7b756026t.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/8/d/2/f5753e2dfec5b496d18da7b756026.html)

it's the same on many other ppl systems as well.

but actually MPC HC is worthless when used with Reclock.
it randomly loses A/V sync and drops frames like crazy after 45/60'(problem reproduced on many different boxes, using HR as well)

KMPlayer works perfectly fine with Reclock and HR/EVR(but just as jerky as MPC HC).

you can't achieve <3 ms jitter with a software renderer :rolleyes:

BTW, being the ATi guru that you are :D

it seems that the ATi drivers make EE on EVR, Overlay, VMR9 and the customized Direct3D renderers of KMPlayer.

I've tried many hacks to get it on HR, I think I've suceeded.......but it's VERY subjective to compare EE :(

maybe I've finally come to realize that EE is not something I want :eek:

as explained here :
http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm

I've known this page for a long time, and I've always thought the B picture was better...........but I'm starting to change my mind :D

you don't need excessive EE to get a 3D-like picture, it's a dirty hack that ruins the PQ :mad:

[arfster]

Lee: that's microseconds (us) reported there, ms is milliseconds :-)

100 microseconds (0.1ms) jitter is one ten-thousandth of a second off the intended display timing point - way, way beyond the human capability to detect, and especially with 24fps stuff, which is only displaying a frame every 40ms.

[leeperry]

ok, I thought they were the same :D

well anyhow, HR is way smoother than EVR with Reclock in 24fps @48Hz.......bar none.

you got no infos about EE with ATi cards on video renderers !?

it seems to be enabled by default, clearly visible on EVR/VMR/etc..

can it be applied to HR ? or is it all in my mind ? :D

[Casimir666]

ok, I thought they were the same :D

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[arfster]

well anyhow, HR is way smoother than EVR with Reclock in 24fps @48Hz.......bar none.


I wonder if it's hardware specific - to be honest I don't see much difference (evr custom is a touch micro-jittery, evr standard seems the same as Haali). There are a lot of factors there though - for example, I get a lot more jitter when I playback through my desktop USB speakers, much less through SPDIF. I also don't need to use reclock so that's different.


you got no infos about EE with ATi cards on video renderers !?

it seems to be enabled by default, clearly visible on EVR/VMR/etc..


Just the same old sharpening as ever. Relevant regkeys:

"dxva_detailenhance" is an on/off switch - setting it to zero is the same as disabling the slider on CCC 8.4+ though, so it's not too needed.

"Detail" is the level of sharpening, which is set by the slider.


At least on my setup, these only affect SD though.


I've looked in the dlls, the only other relevant key is Vforcedetailenhance, but that did nothing on my setup. At a guess, it's there to allow low end cards to force on sharpening for SD.

[leeperry]

agreed, regular EVR looks way smoother than custom EVR....but I get terrible tearing in the middle of the screen.

many other ppl do, even on nvidia. and that's the only renderer that does that to me....EVR requires lock back buffers.

but well, HR never EVER does micro-judder, I think that's because it's in direct control of the hardware and keeps the frames cache in the card's RAM :)

several friends of mine on HCFR also get much more stable frame rate with HR than with EVR custom(in MPC HR or KMP).......more linear fps, less jitter = much smoother :)

well, what about this entry then ? I thought the EE slider was messing with this one ?!

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\ATI\ACE\Backup\Settings\Graphics \MMVideo\EdgeEnhance]
"Accessible"="Compaq_Owner"
"EdgeEnhance"=dword:00000100

but all this EE stuff seems to be disabled............so wth is messing with EVR/VMR9/Overlay then ?! :(

and during all my registry hacks yesterday, I had the feeling I managed to get EE in HR(which might not be a good thing anyway :D )

do you know any way/test pattern to actually see if EE is enabled ?

[arfster]

agreed, regular EVR looks way smoother than custom EVR....but I get terrible tearing in the middle of the screen.


Ahh, annoying - I've not had that with EVR/ATI ever. It seems to be pure luck in your hardware/software combo whether you do or not though.



[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\ATI\ACE\Backup\Settings\Graphics \MMVideo\EdgeEnhance]
"Accessible"="Compaq_Owner"
"EdgeEnhance"=dword:00000100


That's the old way of revealing the CCC detail slider pre 8.3. For whatever reason, ATI opted to not have it visible (don't think it really worked properly tbh).



do you know any way/test pattern to actually see if EE is enabled ?

Probably best is to find some video of text against a starkly contrasting background. News channels with scrolling tickers are quite good for this - eg BBC News is white text against red background, makes sharpening very vis (if you look closely you can see micro-artifacts around the edges of letters).

[leeperry]

ok thank you for your help arfster :)

anyhow, I've just done a clean reinstall of the 8.4 drivers(w/o CCC and ExDeus script)

comparing HR/EVR on SD/HD stuff, it's quite obvious that EVR does a HELLUVALOT of EE...

..same goes for OVERLAY/VMR/custom Direct3D renderers from KMP(and it doesn't show on screenshots, it's clear that the drivers are doing it).

this has been witnessed by many ppl, including noee here and many friends on HCFR.

but I'm realizing that EE is not something you want.

it increases the edges on everything :eek:

but the front and the background elements can't have quite the same level of edge sharpness.

otherwise it's called a cartoon....plus it ruins a lot of details :eek:

using unsharp masking set to 35 in ffdshow with HR gives really great results, though :)

http://pix.nofrag.com/5/9/8/fd518880939d768510431669ca313tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/5/9/8/fd518880939d768510431669ca313.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/9/a/1/024c7c2b5dd4dd5ff9203b34f649ftt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/9/a/1/024c7c2b5dd4dd5ff9203b34f649f.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/b/8/0/0f2eb8bbb5b493e34e3c0dfa6e356tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/b/8/0/0f2eb8bbb5b493e34e3c0dfa6e356.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/a/2/5/4b7e6ef7abbf57df1a0292406b693tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/a/2/5/4b7e6ef7abbf57df1a0292406b693.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/f/e/9/effdc55a8ea91d84527906bdb0111tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/f/e/9/effdc55a8ea91d84527906bdb0111.html)

USM is great stuff, and no EE :

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/unsharp-mask.htm

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/graphics/tut_unsharpmask_man-orig.jpghttp://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/graphics/tut_unsharpmask_man-final.jpghttp://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/graphics/tut_unsharpmask_man-usm.jpg

of course I use it in RGB32HQ, because the ATi drivers do a very crappy software YUV>RGB conversion :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1137196&postcount=1868

and HR's BT709 matrix is also screwed up(too blue) :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1134007#post1134007

[Peuj]

Just curious, What HR settings do you use ?

[leeperry]

Just curious, What HR settings do you use ?

@leeperry
I recommend a setting of 128mb and 120frames for your system.
After some testing with my previous card (6800gs 256mb) if I put anything over 140mb it would drop frames on the heavier parts of the video stream but with 128mb It would run smooth. Now with my 9800gtx 512mb even with 256mb runs ok. The problem maybe was the vista's video memory management, it uses both dedicated and system memory for graphics even if your gpu does not have that "turbo cache" stuff from nvidia that makes the gpu use additional system memory for graphics! Or maybe not!

so far, so good :D

[duckyy]

Quick question: Is there any hotkey to switch 16-235 to 0-255 ? (like Alt Gr+O to show HR OSD)

Sometimes I check on my computer monitor and Id like that option.

[ericab]

@leeperry

what movie is this from?

http://pix.nofrag.com/b/8/0/0f2eb8bbb5b493e34e3c0dfa6e356.png

[Seb.26]

"Igor" IMO ;)

[arfster]

OK, Haali fan(atic)s, I'm doing some testing for a new setup, thought I'd include Haali. Going to do a setup with ffdshow as the decoder, using two profiles to auto-select between bt601/709 based on horizontal res above/below 1024, outputting RGB32HQ to Haali. Appreciate if anyone could answer:

1) Is the above the optimal haali setup?
2) By RGB32HQ is it meant to select RGB32 + "high quality YV12 to RGB conversion" and no other color output options?
3) are the issues with ATI and the ghost lines mentioned in previous posts resolved?
4) any other issues?

[leeperry]

1) 128mb/120 frames works very well on my PCI-E Sapphire 2600XT
2) yes
3) nope, I've been telling Haali about it for months :(
so never upscale with HR, downscale is fine as it's done through AF
4) well, no..........use RGB32HQ coz the BT709 matrix of HR is too blue, and you're good to go

in 24fps with Reclock / 48.000Hz with pstrip.........HR is simply unstoppable :eek:

you get perfect frame rate in any given situation(25fps@50Hz, 30fps@60Hz), simply perfect :D

[Seb.26]

IMO : Don't forgive (16..235)->(0..255) during the YUV->RGB in FFDSv ... ;)

[leeperry]

just leave it on standard, it does 16-235 > 0-255 on the spot.

@ericab (he sent me a PM asking for reclock/pstrip/hr combination) :

you have a LCD monitor.

these things also accept 60Hz most of the time.

you need to run pstrip @50.000Hz, use MPC HC, do the tearing test(CTRL+T).

if it passes well even after several minutes w/o tearing, your only option is to use 50Hz + 23.976@25 in Reclock and enable timestretching.

you can also try 48, but I highly doubt it's gonna go tearing free ;)

if only 60Hz is fine, then you're pretty much screwed..........you can also try 72/75 ?!

[chros]

in 24fps with Reclock / 48.000Hz with pstrip.........HR is simply unstoppable :eek:

you get perfect frame rate in any given situation(25fps@50Hz, 30fps@60Hz), simply perfect :D
Can you speak about this a little more (environment, displays) ?
What's the refresh rate of your display ? (projector ? I have 1 LCD monitor and 1 LCD TV, both with 60 Hz ...)

Thanks

[ericab]

just leave it on standard, it does 16-235 > 0-255 on the spot.

@ericab (he sent me a PM asking for reclock/pstrip/hr combination) :

you have a LCD monitor.

these things also accept 60Hz most of the time.

you need to run pstrip @50.000Hz, use MPC HC, do the tearing test(CTRL+T).

if it passes well even after several minutes w/o tearing, your only option is to use 50Hz + 23.976@25 in Reclock and enable timestretching.

you can also try 48, but I highly doubt it's gonna go tearing free ;)

if only 60Hz is fine, then you're pretty much screwed..........enjoy LCD :D

hi lee, thanks for your reply.

i went into pstrip, (display profiles --> configure)
and it looks like i only have a choice between 60 or 75hz
how do i set custom refresh rate?
if i set it to 50, (if i can...) will my monitor be damaged physically? also... if i can set it to 50hz; when i run a game will everything be alright or will i have to reset it back to 60hz ??
thanks,
eric

*edit*

for example, when i run a 720p .mkv and i go to MPC-HC's filter readout, ReClock displays "Cannot sync this PAL video to your hardware. Please set your monitor refresh rate near to a multiple of 25 Hz" under "Media Adaptation"
this is usually the message i get when playing videos with reclock running. wht do i do to fix this ??

*edit2*
fyi, my monitor is running at 60Hz, however 75Hz is a selectable option, but when i select 75 HZ as an option, my monitor goes black and says video signal not detected...

i dont know what im doing :(

[leeperry]

well first I should state that I *hate* LCD :D

these computer monitors have crappy black level, dead pixels, 60Hz only, mura effect issues, stuck to the native res, etc etc..

and the LCD projectors have misconvergence/color shading/vertical banding issues(SANYO, darn u!!!), 60Hz only except on the latest ones(they usually do 50Hz just jerky to hell), etc.. :eek:

I've got a 19" iiyama CRT connected with 5BNC, it accepts from 40Hz to 140Hz. natively.

and my DLP projector is a HC3100. does from 30Hz to 60Hz natively....and it's got a high resolution mineral glass lens which is crispy as can be(most pj have crappy plastic lenses) :eek:

you can send <30Hz but then it's wrongly mapped(the right side of the picture is blinking), and >60Hz is internally mapped to 60Hz anyhow(easy to see with MPC HC's tearing test)

MPC HC is unable to play smoothly with Reclock(drops frames like crazy after 45/60', even w/ HR), problem doesn't occur with KMPlayer.
but MPC HC has that jitter test, highly valuable to make sure that the graphic card and Reclock play nice :)

in 30Hz / 47.952Hz, the frame rate is not steady......not sure why ?!

anyway cinema projectors play 24fps material in 48Hz(2*24fps) ;)

I've complained to the pstrip support to get exact timings on my HD2600 :
http://forums.entechtaiwan.net/viewtopic.php?t=6137

but this fix only works on the HD2x00, several friends of mine with HD3x00 are having issues at this point :(

there's a trick in pstrip : under "refresh rate", you can double click on the camera and it will measure the exact current refresh rate.

on my HD2600, it's always *SPOT ON* : 48.000 / 50.000 / 60.000......same thing in Reclock.

so HR has no issues *WHATSOEVER* to offer perfectly smooth frame rate, thanks to Reclock :)

to give you an example, before the pstrip team fixed the issue. I was getting 48.545 Hz........which ended up in 24.273 fps in MPC HC(Reclock set to 24fps)........you can see the screenshot on the link I gave above :eek:

BOTTOM LINE : if your refresh rate is screwed up, don't expect miracles :devil:

@ericab :
what's your graphic card ?
well read your manual, and check google.
if it really accepts 75Hz, this might be your ticket.

[ericab]

my gfx card hooked up to my samsung lnt3242 hdtv is an 8600GT
my gfx card hooked up to my viewsonic vm2025wm is an 8800GTS (g92 core)

i cant find the refreshrate of the samsung online, but my gfx card drivers say 60. so, i guess im out of luck ?

[leeperry]

well pstrip doesn't work w/ GF8/9

you still can use the built-in custom refresh rate options of the nvidia drivers, and try 50/75

but they're far from being as accurate as pstrip.

with some patience trying 49.995/50.005 etc...you need to reach as close as possible to 50.000 or 75.000 with the pstrip camera thingie as explained above, and in reclock as well.

then do MPC HC's tearing test.

anyhow you can just pres ESC if you get "no signal", no harm possible ;)

[Seb.26]

just leave it on standard, it does 16-235 > 0-255 on the spot.
HR only does it with YU2 input ...

[Seb.26]

with some patience trying 49.995/50.005 etc...you need to reach as close as possible to 50.000 or 75.000 with the pstrip camera thingie as explained above, and in reclock as well.
The matter isn't to obtain exactly 48 or 50Hz, the goal is to obtain rock-stable refresh rate ...

I'm @48Hz (about 48Hz) and I never set Reclock to '24fps', this is useless IMO ... Just set it to 'Refreshrate/2' ... :cool:

lee: just enable Unmask@35 in FFDSv : amazing !!! ... Thanks ! :)

[leeperry]

well, HR doesn't do jack in RGB32.

ffdshow does the PC>TV range conversion, all you have to check is BT601 for SD, and 709 for HD.

well, yeah I dunno why your real refresh rate comes and goes around 48 ?!

mine never moves whatsoever, even the pstrip tech support measured that I had a 0.002 us fluctuation in 48Hz, and no fluctuation at all in 60 Hz :D

get back to them on their forum, Rik Wang is very knowledgeable :eek:

disable PowerPlay maybe ? it was giving black screens on my 2600, had to update with a BIOS that disables it.....

or get yourself a HD2600 :D

told you, the crappy EE from the ATi drivers in EVR is worthless.
unsharp masking@35 is all you need in RGB32HQ w/ HR + Reclock.

I've just watched a 2 hours HD movie in 23.976@24 in 48Hz in KMPlayer with HR, it was rock FRIGGIN' stable :D

[ericab]

I'm @48Hz (about 48Hz) and I never set Reclock to '24fps', this is useless IMO ... Just set it to 'Refreshrate/2' ... :cool:


wow, thanks Seb; that worked a trick!! :thanks:

[leeperry]

I highly doubt your LCD screens will do 48Hz w/o upsampling it internally to 60..

only MPC HC's tearing test can tell you that.

[chros]

Thanks Lee for the info, I will be chewing this ... :)

[leeperry]

no probs ;)

actually there's also a pstrip rule.

if you multiply the horizontal lines X vertical lines X refresh rate, you need to achieve no more than 3 digits after the coma(major Kudos to Seb.26 for this one :D )

that's your ramdac freq., if it's not roundable you're screwed as well.........which makes it difficult to find perfectly rock stable timings >50Hz

anyhow, your goal is to have a rock solid frame rate in MPC HC with EVR(or VMR9?), that ensures that HR will go smoooooooooth on ya :D

that's 48Hz with 23.976@24fps in Reclock :

http://pix.nofrag.com/3/7/2/f98f1346879d82dbb61dd7ab4eca8tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/3/7/2/f98f1346879d82dbb61dd7ab4eca8.html)

that's 50Hz with 25fps in Reclock :

http://pix.nofrag.com/7/7/5/7493d1d07b953e4e2d18f12fb935ftt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/7/7/5/7493d1d07b953e4e2d18f12fb935f.html)

that's 60Hz with 23.976@30 fps in Reclock ( didn't have any 29.97 material around) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/5/0/f/b3d98ca920fcaa842da046432726btt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/5/0/f/b3d98ca920fcaa842da046432726b.html)

as long as your frame rate oscillates(even slightly), it won't be as smooth in HR...

[wozio]

I have a question guys:

Do you use vsync? Fullscreen or windowed?

Asking because if you use fullscreen with vsync then jitter at the renderer less than one refresh period will not be visible anyway.

I often watch 50Hz tv on 50Hz LCD and motion is very smooth without any glitch. But I use vsync in fullscreen exclusive. In that mode rendering is bind to refresh of the screen so movie frame waits for screen anyway.

Of course display refresh rate must be equal or multiply of movie frame rate.

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

I don't use the D3D fullscreen mode, but I've got VSYNC forced in the ATi drivers(HR enforces it anyway).

these screenshots were taken in windowed customized EVR in MPC HC.

actually in D3D FS mode in MPC HC, I never get a rock stable frame rate :eek:

anyhow, in whatever mode/renderer MPC HC always loses A/V sync after 45/60 mins

it's been witnessed on many different computers, using different components....some major incompatiblity with Reclock I guess.

but when you get perfectly stable results in MPC HC, then it's the same story with HR :

http://pix.nofrag.com/2/3/d/ebd27048710629a8696f0b160a1c7tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/2/3/d/ebd27048710629a8696f0b160a1c7.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/8/5/7/1322aad279fc807b06d0d0f419847tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/8/5/7/1322aad279fc807b06d0d0f419847.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/f/9/b/81dd8c12bef74f9e318a9b9c55398tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/f/9/b/81dd8c12bef74f9e318a9b9c55398.html)

this is 25 and 50 fps 720p material in 50Hz(same timings as above with MPC HC)

[leeperry]

anyone knows what the jitter figure in the OSD actually measures ?
I mean I can start some movies and seek several times to achieve 0.01 ms, then 90 minutes later being at 2/3 ms

and sometimes I end at 10 ms(mostly with full bitrate DTS), and still no dropped frames ?

OTOH, with very high bitrate 1080p in RGB32HQ with resizing/sharpening in ffdshow, it quickly grows >300ms, so obviously I'm getting lot of dropped frames.

what's the acceptable jitter limit ? is it always linked with dropped frames ?

TIA,

[Mercury_22]

Any chance for a 64-bit version ?

[wozio]

@leeperry
What I think jitter stands for difference between time when frame should be displayed to time when it is actually displayed. So if you play 24 fps source each frame must be displayed every 41,6 ms so jitter of 10 ms will not lead to dropped frames. It depends of many things when frame will be dropped, as far as I can see in your case ffdshow drops frames when its jitter is more than 300 ms (it can be adjusted in ffdshow AFAIR).

[leeperry]

well I've checked "drop frame on delay : 1 ms" in ffdshow, it smoothes things up a lot...mostly it avoids hiccups when seeking.

and I guess the HR jitter is based on the original framerate data(e.g 23.976fps), but Reclock is changing it(23.976@24)........so how accurate is that figure ?! :D

on the last screenshot I posted above, you can see that HR says "25fps specified" >> "24 achieved"......yet I get 0.01ms jitter :D

[wozio]

Jitter is calculated for one frame not for whole file. Framerate is specified at connection between decoder and renderer and this is specified framerate. But each frame has its own time when it should be shown on screen and jitter is calculated for one current frame. For example you can have formats where variable frame rate is used (I have one such rmvb file, where when nothing changing on screen framerate drops to zero) and still have low jitter. This is common for tv broadcasts to have pal/ntsc framerate specified but inside 25 or 23,976 fps progressive frames and the you will also have mismatch between specified and achieved framerate.

Reclock as name suggests, changes clock thus changes times when frames should be presented. It doesn't change specified stream framerate.

[neoufo51]

Does anybody know the general parameters for changing the settings on the Haali Renderer properties page?

For example, I have a Core 2 @2ghz w/ 2GB of RAM and a 128mb 8400GS card on my laptop.

How do I know from my specs what the frames and buffer size settings should be?

[leeperry]

Reclock as name suggests, changes clock thus changes times when frames should be presented. It doesn't change specified stream framerate.

it does change the frame rate.

look at the above screenshot.

25 specified, 24 achieved.

I've slowed down this accelerated NTSC to normal speed.

and HR seems to get its infos from HMS, which doesn't "know" Reclock is changing the timestamps :D

[wozio]

This is exactly what I wrote. By changing clock reclock changes timestamps of the frames (when frame should be presented). Specified framerate is taken from connection media type to renderer.

[kutjong]

Does anybody know the general parameters for changing the settings on the Haali Renderer properties page?

For example, I have a Core 2 @2ghz w/ 2GB of RAM and a 128mb 8400GS card on my laptop.

How do I know from my specs what the frames and buffer size settings should be?
The buffer in HR uses RAM of your graphics card. I have 256 MB on mine, so I've set the buffer to 128 MB and 120 frames. You could set yours to about 64 MB and frames to 60.

[neoufo51]

The buffer in HR uses RAM of your graphics card. I have 256 MB on mine, so I've set the buffer to 128 MB and 120 frames. You could set yours to about 64 MB and frames to 60.
Done and I now notice slightly more improved playback! Thanks!

[kutjong]

Hm, I've come up with a strange incompatibility with HR and Reclock. Specifically it only concerns DVDs... Using MPC (clsid), ffdshow video decoder (libmpeg2), AC3filter, Reclock (1,7 beta4) and HR results in the player locking up if I try to play back a dvd. If I use the default directsound renderer with HR everything's fine, also if I use VMR9 renderless instead of HR with Reclock there is no trouble either.

So clearly there's an incompatibility using HR with Reclock for DVDs. HR and Reclock work completely fine with other video files, e.g. xvid, x264 mkv...
Does anybody else have this problem?

For now I'm using VMR9 for dvds, it would be fine if it just had an OSD like HR. :) VMR9's scaling is fine since I run my crt at 800x600@120 HZ for dvds, so there's minimal scaling.

[noee]

...Does anybody else have this problem?

I have the exact same playback chain that your do, except I use JRiver's Media Center 12 for playback, I have no problems with DVDs, either ripped or from the tray.

[leeperry]

@kutjong : try with another player, like KMPlayer.
there's a few things I've never really managed to do in MPC HC :
-read .ts properly
-read h264 .mov
-read mpeg2 program files
-get smooth playback >60 mins with Reclock

I registered the filters and stuff, but it never really worked flawlessly for some reason.

anyhow I've got many movies that randomly stutter with Haali Media Splitter+HR, and they play perfectly smoothly with KMP Matroska Reader

this issue has been observed by several ppl on another major forum......a simple fix was to demux their primary elements and remux them with the latest MKVtoolnix.

but well, it's not like Haali cares about bug reports..

[neoufo51]

I've always thought about using KMPlayer instead but the interface turns me off. However, if it plays files even better than MPC-HC and HR I might jump ship for that.

[kutjong]

but well, it's not like Haali cares about bug reports..
But he did add "autodetection" for colorimetry and for that I'm grateful. :) Anyway, I don't think there's much improvement to be made in HR anymore, except for DVD compatibility. It would be great if there was a way to use buffering when watching the movie itself. Deinterlacing is currently making my system drop frames because of the low buffer, but if I just manually open a specific .vob file, the buffer works normally and I get no dropped frames. :) But I think I already know that this seems impossible... How will HR be able to know if you're currently in the menu or watching the film?

Since I'm coming with suggestions here I believe HR's hardware "bobbing" could also use some interpolation, something like VLC's "linear" deinterlacer, which doubles framerate and adds linear interpolation for smoothing. :cool:

If these improvements would be made, HR would become the de facto renderer for the HTPC community. :) EVR could then GTFO. :devil:

[leeperry]

But he did add "autodetection" for colorimetry and for that I'm grateful. :)

yeah, I asked him about that feature like 6 months ago :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1081395#post1081395

well, HR gives ghost lines with ATi cards when its built-in PS resizer is used, and its BT709 matrix is wrong(too blue).

maybe someday we'll see fixes for that ?

for the time being I output RGB32HQ from ffdshow and I make sure that upscaling is not done by HR(downscaling is done with AF and is perfectly fine).

gotta love being a beta-tester :p

[kutjong]

well, HR gives ghost lines with ATi cards when its built-in PS resizer is used, and its BT709 matrix is wrong(too blue).
I don't get any ghostlines with my Radeon X800 XT, but I'm using drivers from january 2006 (no improvements for R420 thereafter), so I don't know if your ghostlines are because of newer drivers or the Radeon R600 generation. PS 3.0 bicubic scaling has been removed in newest version so it can't be the difference in PS 3.0 and 2.0 scaling...

As for BT.709, are you sure that ffdshow's representation is correct and Haali's incorrect? I mean it seems that ffdshow's BT.709 just has more green, how do you know which representation is correct? :)

As for the DVD buffer problem, as clsid suggested earlier in this thread, is it possible to add some hotkey that would enable normal buffering when you start watching the actual movie? As I posted earlier, if you open .vobs manually buffering is normal but I think it's because the DVD navigator filter isn't used if you do that.
Bottom-line: Does the DVD navigator filter require the 4 frame buffer when watching the film, or is the 4 frame buffer only necessary for menus? :confused:

On-the-fly changing of the buffer with DVDs doesn't work (when I watch the film), seems that HR doesn't allow it as long as the DVD navigator is in the graph. :(

[leeperry]

well yeah, it's related to a bug in the ATi drivers.....still it needs to be fixed :(

yes, if you care to look at the previous pages, ffdshow in RGB32HQ outputs the same colorspace as the ATi drivers..........yet HR is too blue and not green enough :(

[kutjong]

well yeah, it's related to a bug in the ATi drivers.....still it needs to be fixed :(
Have you tried any older drivers? If the bug appeared in a specific driver version, then I think it's clearly up to AMD to fix the bug, not Haali. If we want this bug to be fixed then it should be presented to AMD in a properly manner so that it stands out from the other poorly made support tickets...

yes, if you care to look at the previous pages, ffdshow in RGB32HQ outputs the same colorspace as the ATi drivers..........yet HR is too blue and not green enough :(
Ok, but how do we know that ffdshow and AMD have the correct matrix? :p I mean, we can't be sure for 100 %, right? ffdshow's and AMD's BT.709 matrix is probably created on basis of an official paper on the standard, but I don't think Haali drew the code out of his magic hat... :p

[Peuj]

I agree the changes (bugs, requests) from Haali are not quick but well it's free so...

[leeperry]

AMD is close to bankruptcy at this point, they don't give a damn about this issue.

I've got a HD2600XT, I'm not gonna run 10 year old drivers :D

well all my displays are carefully D65 calibrated, and I can tell you that the ATi/ffdshow matrix are perfectly fine.

apparently, HR does some rounding............that screws with the BT.709 coeffs :(

[Shinigami-Sama]

send haali 500$ and see how fast he fixes some of these bugs leeperry :P

[leeperry]

well I already sent him emails and PM's, how would $500 make a difference :D

[kutjong]

AMD is close to bankruptcy at this point, they don't give a damn about this issue.


AMD is going to own nvidia with the coming R700, so no worries of bankruptcy. :sly:

I've got a HD2600XT, I'm not gonna run 10 year old drivers :D
I didn't mean that you should keep running with those old drivers 24/7, just test if the bug is in all the driver versions for R600. If the bug isn't present in a certain catalyst version, we'll have something to base our support ticket with and hopefully get this issue resolved. :)
My next gfx card will probably a Radeon 4870 so I wouldn't mind having this bug resolved until that. :D

@Peuj: I would gladly donate to Haali if I could, but I can't find this possibility on his site..

[Lantis]

Whenever I use Haali to bob the interlaced video the jitter increases (around 5 ms of jitter por 1 second of video) and never decreases. No a big problem for SD video, where I can use VMR9 or ffdshow to deinterlace. However, with 1080i content, VMR9 and ffdshow can't pump out the 60 fps and the video in unwatchable (10 or 15 fps). Only Haali can bob deinterlace HD video in relatime (the video is very fluid) but the jitter increments constantly making the video to be out of sync with the audio.

So I ask: Is there any way to fix the jitter when Haali's bob deinterlacing the video? If the answer is no, is there any other way to achieve realtime bob deinterlacing with HD stuff?

I have a Athlon 64 X2 4400+ and a GeForce 7600GT by the way.

[wozio]

@Lantis

Your hardware should be perfectly capable of deinterlacing any content with VMR9. Are you sure it is a matter of renderer? Mine hardware is much less powerfull and I don't have any problem with deinterlacing.

Deinterlacing in VMR9/drivers is much better quality than HR.

Regards
Piotr

[Lantis]

Thanks for the reply wozio.

ffdshow + VMR9 can handle interlaced SD content all right, with or without renderer deinterlacing. The problem surfaces with 1080i where it can't even play it interlaced at 30fps.
ffdshow + HR gives very good fps (even when bobbing 1080i at 60 fps) but there's the jitter problem.

Then I tried using CyberLink MPEG decoder instead of ffdshow to play the 1080i file.
CyberLink + VMR9 looks fine, even when set to 60fps.
CyberLink + HR doesn't correct the AR (where ffdshow + HR does) and does not bob.

It seems that the problem's solved! However, VMR9 is set to PC scale and the source is TV. And I couldn't find any switches to change the scale (neither on VMR9 nor the decoder).

So now reformulate my question: Is there any way to fix the jitter when Haali's bob deinterlacing the video? If the answer is no, is there any other way to change VMR9's output RGB levels without ffdshow?

[kutjong]

is there any other way to change VMR9's output RGB levels without ffdshow?
If you're using MPC, there should be a 16-235->0-255 shader if you search in the shader list that you can find if you right-click on the video surface.

I'm currently also experiencing trouble with deinterlacing... With bob deinterlacers I can only reach 40 fps, regardless of which one I use! There is no difference if I use VMR9 renderless or HR. In ffdshow I have the interlace flag set to bob. But even with ffdshow's built-in software bob deinterlacer's I also only get 40 fps.
My graphics card is a Radeon X800 XT PE so I think it's clear that it should be well capable of HW deinterlacing... :confused: My processor is a P4 3,2E GHz so it shouldn't be too old for this stuff either.
FYI, I have AA and AF and the like on application preference.

[Lantis]

Thanks, that did the trick! Now I can watch 1080i at 60 fps properly. Although I'm still interested if the jitter in HR can be fixed, I prefer using zplayer (I like the interface better) and HR (that colorimetry autodetect is nice) but well, beggars can't be choosers.

And as for your problem, try using another decoder, that solved the low FPS yield of VMR9 for me.

[kutjong]

It seems that the 40 fps problem was because of scaling! If Haali outputs the resolution as is, HW bob works fine @ steady 50 fps.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y249/Mara-23/smooth.jpg

But as soon as I go full-screen everything goes downhill:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y249/Mara-23/notsmooth.jpg


Does this just mean that my X800 XT PE isn't fast enough to perform both deinterlacing and bicubic scaling?

[wozio]

Although I'm still interested if the jitter in HR can be fixed, I prefer using zplayer (I like the interface better) and HR (that colorimetry autodetect is nice) but well, beggars can't be choosers.

So you mean you have TV range in video output? Sorry I have ATI card and it's drivers are really mess in this area (extending HD to PC and don't SD, but can be triggered via regfix for SD also).

What you can do also for correcting TV->PC range is to set fixed brightness/contrast adjustment in drivers video settings. It will work only for VMR9/EVR but in any player using one of these renderers. AFAIR you should set brightness to -16 and contrast to 116 or something similar and you will get PC range. You should adjust it to your liking and/or calibrate display.

At least this trick works for undoing PC range in ATI cards so it should work with doing PC range in nvidia.

Regards
wozio

[Lantis]

@wozio: No, I meant the colorimetry matrix autoselect of HR (ITU-R BT.601/709). And thanks for the tip.

@kutjong: I had a around 280 frame drops when resizing (upsizing to fullscreen) high motion h264 720p60 (around 3 minutes duration) content while without resizing it only dropped 46 frames. So I guess you could right, probably the video card that can't keep up.
Also, you don't get jitter problems when using HR to bob deinterlace? Could I ask for your used filters and settings?

[wozio]

VMR9 automatically switch between 601/709 since I remember, at least for ATI cards (or to be precise, drivers switch). For me color conversion in ATI drivers is exactly the same from quality point of view than in ffdshow RGB HQ conversion.

One problem with ATI drivers is that them switch between matrixes basing on vertical size (less than 720 lines - use 601, otherwise use 709) which leads to problem when playing material which is 720p with AR 2.35:1 so their real size is something about 540 lines. Then 601 matrix is used incorrectly. In HR it is better solved basing on horizontal size.

[kutjong]

Also, you don't get jitter problems when using HR to bob deinterlace? Could I ask for your used filters and settings?
If you want to have low jitter, you should use reclock and set your display refresh rate to a multiple of the video's framerate. In my case I'm watching a PAL dvd (25fps) so I've set my refresh rate to 100 Hz. :)

FYI, to get accurate refresh rates you should use powerstrip. Windows discrete timing refresh rates are not usually accurate and this'll result in reclock having a hard time syncing.

[Shinigami-Sama]

maybe I'm an idiot but where are these renderer settings?

[kutjong]

maybe I'm an idiot but where are these renderer settings?
If you use MPC: Right-click on video surface->filters->haali video renderer.

[Shinigami-Sama]

If you use MPC: Right-click on video surface->filters->haali video renderer.

that'd explain why I never noticed it
I almost never use the context menu

thanks

[Lantis]

@wozio I couldn't find anything like that for nVidia. And changing the overlay brightness/contrast settings doesn't seem to affect VMR9. Don't worry, I have HR's problem solved.

@kutjong Wow, you're right. I set the refresh rate to 75Hz and HR's constant increasing jitter problem is solved! Thank you!

[leeperry]

well it still increases for me in 48 Hz with Reclock in 24 fps

I usually start at 0.25 and 90 mins later I'm at 9 ms

[cyberbeing]

On my system I don't have an issue with increasing jitter but more of an issue with getting it to lock in at a low jitter. With Reclock and a multiple of the video framerate refresh, whatever the jitter is at the beginning, it will say within 0.5ms throughout the whole video.

Sometimes I have to seek like 10-15 times to get a low jitter of 0-2ms and other times I can't seem to get it below 3-4ms. It makes me wonder if Haali could add some sort of automatic jitter correction to sync it as close as possible to the expected refresh for the lowest jitter. The seeking jitter workaround seems to tell me that whenever the first frame is displayed, the subsequent frames will always be displayed at an even distance apart maintaining the jitter of the first frame displayed. For all I know Haali renderer already has something like that but ReClock breaks it...

I've also had an issue where when viewing in Windowed mode with a 0.5ms jitter and then switch to fullscreen the jitter will increse to something like 3ms even if the video resolution is my screen resolution (no resizing). When I go back to Windowed mode the jitter drops back down to 0.5ms.

Reclock seems very picky with Haali Renderer+MKVs and sometimes won't detect the video stream which when that is the case Reclock seems to be designed to disable framerate changes and resampling rendering it useless. Oddly enough I have found that renaming the directory the file is in will sometimes fix it (but not always).

[wozio]

@wozio I couldn't find anything like that for nVidia.
What you could not find? Automatic color conversion matrix switch? It is automatic so it is supposed to be hidden and you will not find it ;) Try to do some tests: run some SD material via ffdshow without any resizing, make screenshot in fullscreen, then set ffdshow to resize to HD resolution, 1920x1080 for example, go to the same frame, make screenshot and compare with previous one, they should be little defferent in colors.

And changing the overlay brightness/contrast settings doesn't seem to affect VMR9.

You mean this settings? They should affect VMR9.
http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/video/nvidia/drivers/forceware91xx/videocolor-standard.png

Don't worry, I have HR's problem solved.

I'm not worry I just don't know why you use HR, when there is no benefit from it at all comparing to properly configured VMR9.

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

Sometimes I have to seek like 10-15 times to get a low jitter of 0-2ms and other times I can't seem to get it below 3-4ms. It makes me wonder if Haali could add some sort of automatic jitter correction to sync it as close as possible to the expected refresh for the lowest jitter. The seeking jitter workaround seems to tell me that whenever the first frame is displayed, the subsequent frames will always be displayed at an even distance apart maintaining the jitter of the first frame displayed. For all I know Haali renderer already has something like that but ReClock breaks it...

you need to catch the VSYNC, as simple as that....prolly due to Reclock that doesn't offer VSYNC correction with HR.

I had the same problem with MPC HC in EVR.

I also seek a number of times to catch it the best I can.

sometimes I even get 0.01ms jitter

I'm not worry I just don't know why you use HR, when there is no benefit from it at all comparing to properly configured VMR9.

When you start using HR with Reclock with a multiple refresh rate, I can assure you that nothing's as smooth as HR.

but yeah if you watch all your videos in 60Hz, there's no point in using HR and/or Reclock :p

[cc979]

50hz sync, i have seen before with some drivers you can add custom refresh rates = 50hz Pal, 60hz NTSC

[pirlouy]

I'm not worry I just don't know why you use HR, when there is no benefit from it at all comparing to properly configured VMR9.
Can you explain what are the right settings for WMR9 (with MPC HC for example) ?

I use Haali Video Renderer because (ok, I'm a noob on this) he allows me to have a real "black" and not a grey (Luma Range: TV: 16->235) and because he can resize source to the right resolution.

[kutjong]

I'm not worry I just don't know why you use HR, when there is no benefit from it at all comparing to properly configured VMR9.

Regards
Piotr
I think VMR9 will only use BT.709 colorimetry if the video's vertical resolution is at least 720 pixels. This is not good since there are many videos that simply have the black bars cropped from the video resulting in vertical resolution that is under 720 pixels. VMR9 will then incorrectly use BT.601 colorimetry.

Haali's automatic colorimetry goes by horizontal resolution and this is always 1280 or 1920 in HD. If you have problems, you can manually specify. :)

[wozio]

@leeperry
I often watch 50Hz TV broadcasts on 50 Hz LCD TV does it qualify? For me smoothest motion is when using VMR9 fullscreen exlusive in any player supporting it. On my system HR in such scenario is jerky.

@pirlouy
Resizing:
Each renderer can resize picture to right resolution. One do it better than the others. On my setup (ATI x1650 pro) HR scaling is very bad quality, MPC VMR9 renderless with bicubic is much better. Or even normal bilinear, I don't like very sharp/oversharpened picture.

Luma range:
On my setup VMR9 properly extends luma range from tv to pc with registry tweak to force this on SD. I don't see any quality difference between this and ffdshow's HQ YUV->RGB conversion but is VMR9 much faster since it does it on hardware. I don't know what about nvidia though. Using driver control panel adjustment you can undo this range extension to get tv range and calibrate display to preserve blacker-than-black and whiter -than-white information.

In MPC HC in output set VMR9 renderless, yuv mixing mode, direct3d texture with bicubic rendering, A parameter set to taste.

Only one big issue with VMR9 is that all video processing is done in graphic card drivers so you rely on drivers developers. On ATI it leads to many problems with properly configuring drivers. HR is only better in this area, it is mostly independent on drivers so it is very easy to just work. But you loose DXVA, deinterlacing, fullscreen exclusive support, driver enhancements.

[wozio]

I think VMR9 will only use BT.709 colorimetry if the video's vertical resolution is at least 720 pixels. This is not good since there are many videos that simply have the black bars cropped from the video resulting in vertical resolution that is under 720 pixels. VMR9 will then incorrectly use BT.601 colorimetry.

Yes this is a problem, I mentioned it. But on the other hand only ripped and reencoded sources suffer from this. Did you see any 720p HDTV broadcast or bluray/hddvd that is encoded without black bars when being 2,35:1?

Reencoded rips is not what I call high quality and in such case you can justify wrong colorimetry :P

[pirlouy]

bah, in fact you're right, I change my nvidia settings:
Brightness: +41% (-9)
Contrast: +65% (+15)
Saturation: +65% (+15)
and video looks similar as the HR one (2 different video players nearby to compare).

For resizing, in fact I don't see differences. Thanks

[kutjong]

Reencoded rips is not what I call high quality
True, but I would rather not make it worse by displaying wrong colors. :) Altough an easy solution with ffdshow would be to resize image so that 720 pixels are used in vertical resolution.

[Lantis]

@wozio You're right, the upscaled fullscreen image is a bit darker than the downscaled one.

I was changing the overlay controls in the old control panel. I tried with the new one (the one you pictured) but still can't get a "true black" with VMR9, not even with the values pirlouy used.

Edit: All right, found the registry fix for VMR9 levels in zplayer forums.

[leeperry]

hey guys, I dunno if any of you use Reclock + HR in 48 Hz, but if you wanna try 47.952 w/o Reclock......it's quite interesting.

I'm discussing it on the pstrip forum here:
http://forums.entechtaiwan.net/viewtopic.php?p=23662#23662

any insigh appreciated ;)

[neoufo51]

Using MPC, I notice that when playing back non-HD AVI files, I get more blocking using Haali Renderer than with both the Overlay Renderer and VMR9, which render a perfectly smooth image. The blocking isn't enough to make playback unwatchable, but I notice it when I look more closely. Anybody know how to get rid of that?

[kutjong]

Using MPC, I notice that when playing back non-HD AVI files, I get more blocking using Haali Renderer than with both the Overlay Renderer and VMR9, which render a perfectly smooth image. The blocking isn't enough to make playback unwatchable, but I notice it when I look more closely. Anybody know how to get rid of that?

Could you post screenshots of these differences? Use PrtScn instead of the save image feature in MPC.

My guess would be that you're experiencing HR's scaling bug, are you perhaps using a Radeon card?

[neoufo51]

Could you post screenshots of these differences? Use PrtScn instead of the save image feature in MPC.

My guess would be that you're experiencing HR's scaling bug, are you perhaps using a Radeon card?
Actually I think its going on with all the renderers now that I look at it. Fullscreen scaling.

[sheppaul]

Actually I think its going on with all the renderers now that I look at it. Fullscreen scaling.

You have a big monitor and ATI graphic card with catalyst 8.5 for sure. I had the same problem. :)

I was unable to solve the problem with MPC. MPC have three types of VMR surfaces while KMP have four. I'm not sure why. However, the blocking of low resolution videos was not appeared in the system default surface of KMP in VMR9 Renderless.

[leeperry]

press ALT+O to show HR'S OSD

if it says S or SS, that means the internal bicubic resizer is being used.....and it gives ghost lines and artefacts on ATi cards(not on nvidia, though....I think)

[kutjong]

press ALT+O to show HR'S OSD

if it says S or SS, that means the internal bicubic resizer is being used.....and it gives ghost lines and artefacts on ATi cards(not on nvidia, though....I think)
But not on all ATi cards, though. My Radeon X800 XT is unaffected by this bug, for example. Maybe this bug is just with the HD series...

[leeperry]

is there any official answer from Haali about the jitter figure ?

I haven't found a "Search in this thread" option ?!

[kutjong]

I gave up on HR and reclock. I just couldn't tell the difference... There was so much hassle anyway changing resolution/refresh rate all the time depending on the material. Sure there was a nice placebo effect for a while with the green icon and reading CINEMA adaptation, but while comparing I couldn't tell the difference.
Maybe I just have crappy eyes. :)

[leeperry]

if your display doesn't support 1:1 24/48/72Hz, then yeah Reclock's limited.

[kutjong]

I was mosly using 120 Hz, which was compatible as a multiple of both 24 fps and 30 fps. If I had a PAL movie I would play it back at 24 fps, or if it was filmed in PAL, change to 100 Hz.
The only problem I have with reclock is its incompatibility with HR, I hate using VMR9.

[leeperry]

humm Reclock is perfectly compatible with HR, and way smoother than VMR9 :rolleyes:

http://pix.nofrag.com/e/b/d/4b0174ce2c5d47f90c1e71c1b1235tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/e/b/d/4b0174ce2c5d47f90c1e71c1b1235.html)

[kutjong]

Yeah, except with DVDs. MPC will always crash then if I'm using HR with reclock. If I switch to default directsound renderer, everything's fine.

[leeperry]

MPC is the best mediaplayer in the whole universe :p

[wozio]

http://pix.nofrag.com/a/0/4/58b9230f9d562610f70321636f3eftt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/a/0/4/58b9230f9d562610f70321636f3ef.html)

You have massive combing in this video in background, is it deinterlaced?

Regards
Piotr

[leeperry]

I don't think so but I never watch DVD's :)

you can force deinterlacing in the MPEG2 decoder or in ffdshow I think.

[Mangix]

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/4976/clipboard01jq9.png

is this normal? my refresh rate is set to 59.95hz but i'm getting so much jitter... it never seems to go below 8.5

[leeperry]

well 59.95 doesn't mean much.

what does Reclock say ?

[Mangix]

59.955hz

i tried powerstrip but for some reason, it wouldn't work for me.

[leeperry]

well don't expect miracles my friend :D

getting judder free playback on PC is a long struggle, if you're not patient you might just pass :D

[neoufo51]

When I use Haali Renderer on MPC to play back a high definition H.264 file such as a Quicktime trailer or an MKV contained film, I get a huge video slowdown whenever I right click the video to bring up the context menu onscreen. One I left click anywhere else to get rid of the context menu, the slowdown goes away.

Anybody else experiencing this?

[Flash_Git]

MPC is an old bloated player....it lacks tons of features.

DVD's works fine with KMPlayer and HR+Reclock :

How on earth can you call MPC bloated, when A) you say it's lacking and B) you use kmplayer?

[neoufo51]

How on earth can you call MPC bloated, when A) you say it's lacking and B) you use kmplayer?
I second this question.

[Shinigami-Sama]

How on earth can you call MPC bloated, when A) you say it's lacking and B) you use kmplayer?

you learn to ignore him ;)

[leeperry]

hehe my fan club made exclusively of very smart people is back!!!!! :D

well using Reclock with MPC HC is always a major failure, and I've spoken to Casimir666 many times....its presenter is just not tight enough to keep up.

MPC HC simply can't cope with Reclock's timings.

after 30/45' the jitter goes crazy, whatever with VMR9, EVR or HR....it's been witnessed on many different computers.

but anyhow you prolly watch your movies in 60Hz, so how would u care :eek:

I'm not even pointing the irony here :D

[stax76]

KMP ain't all bliss either:


45 MB disc space (MPC only 6 MB)
Startup time passing source file from shell is a major pain, probably more than twice than any other player
Violates GPL using Gabest/MPC work

[leeperry]

well KMP gets the job done ya know, and it's got awesome features like "seamless playback", extensive subs support(MPC is pathetic for subs), extensive playlist support, etc.....

with Reclock and HR, you get judderless movies.........it doesn't crap out after 40' :eek:

yeah it's 45mb, so ? I got a 500gb drive myself.

yes it violates GPL, so ? Reclock does too, I don't care I'm not a cop.

I definitely agree that they stole a lot of code from MPC, but well it's like the "reinventing the wheel" thingie.

[stax76]

The show stopper for me is the startup time.

[leeperry]

I copied all its files on a ramdisk actually :D

[Peuj]

Please, it's out of topic.

Thanks

[leeperry]

sure is :D

I wonder if there will ever be an HR fix for the ghost lines issue on ATi cards, this problem has been here for more than 1 year now :(

giving an option to disable the internal bicubic PS resizer is all we need, AF can do the job nicely :)

also when zooming in HR, it's not centered.

[leeperry]

native res is 1280*768, SD is upscaled to this resolution with AR correction.

zooming in HR is completely out-centered :(

http://pix.nofrag.com/0/6/0/a8023e41181c0424028539b0128c3tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/0/6/0/a8023e41181c0424028539b0128c3.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/b/4/4/b65a7336d4a7b751ddcf8783b4032tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/b/4/4/b65a7336d4a7b751ddcf8783b4032.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/c/d/d/5465a7b98c05e4c3f9c22b68e3c64tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/c/d/d/5465a7b98c05e4c3f9c22b68e3c64.html)

that's on XP SP3 with an HD2600, problem occurs in MPC and KMPlayer and zooming works fine in both apps with VMR9

also when opening HR preferences, sometimes you get this kind of funky problems(also happens to other ppl with nvidia cards), prolly related considering it's on the same screen portion :

http://pix.nofrag.com/7/6/7/b671dbb6bb0f91b0e78749d9e96e7tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/7/6/7/b671dbb6bb0f91b0e78749d9e96e7.html)

[Leak]

Please, it's out of topic.
Seconded.

Also, this forum has that nifty "Ignore user" list - if you didn't use it before, why not give it a try and put leeperry on it?

np: Holz - Glut (Musick To Play In The Club)

[leeperry]

heheh, I'm talking about bugs in HR.......how is that out of topic ? :D

This message is hidden because Leak is on your ignore list.

damn it works :D

I'm prolly the person who discovered the most bugs in HR lately :

-REC709 matrix quite innacurate(too blue, too red and not green enough)
-ghost lines on ATi HD cards(been talking about it for a year now)
-zooming not quite centered
-HR properties looking funky on some SD/1080p movies
-AR problem with 1.33 4:3 videos, video is shrunk vertically in YUY2....but not in RGB32 :eek:
-automatic BT601/709 matrix in YUY2 if < or >1024 horizontal pixels(Haali implemented this one after I asked him)

[clsid]

-ghost lines on ATi HD cards(been talking about it for a year now)It is a bug in the ATi drivers. It's not Haali's fault. So for the love of god, please stop whining about it. Go make a million posts at some ATi support forum. I am sure they will get so sick of you that they will put an entire project team on it.

[leeperry]

hehehe, well Casimir fixed it in MPC HC after I asked him on HCFR...it was an easy fix from what he said, he changed a PS sum from 1.0 to 0.98

ATi won't fix it, they don't care about HTPC's.........you can ask arfster :D

happy to see you around btw clsid, you've always been such a friendly person :)

you might not know it, but I took care of all the french>english translations on the official MPC HC site : http://mpc-hc.sourceforge.net/

...so I'm not simply "whining" as you so kindly and wrongfully stated :rolleyes:

[sheppaul]

It is a bug in the ATi drivers. It's not Haali's fault. So for the love of god, please stop whining about it. Go make a million posts at some ATi support forum. I am sure they will get so sick of you that they will put an entire project team on it.

+1 :devil:

[leeperry]

oops.........looks like the short bus just dropped by :D

this bug won't be fixed by ATi(what bug ? I don't see a bug :D ), and neither by Haali............so we all HR users can just rejoice and sing along http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/buvons.gif

I'm FAR from being the only one annoyed by the innacurate BT709 matrix and this ghost lines bugs......whatever on here or on HCFR.

but HR is the best renderer EVER, and these are minor bugs......so wth :rolleyes:

I'm already thinking about learning how to code in order to fix minor bugs in ffdshow by myself(considering noone's gonna do it anyhow) :cool:

[pirlouy]

MPC HC simply can't cope with Reclock's timings.
This reclock tool is buggy and not developped anymore, I've tried it several times, but then I had a lot of crashes/freezes. So I don't think the problem is in MPC HC, but with Reclock...

MPC is pathetic for subs
No problem with MPC HC...
extensive playlist support
Playlist, it's for audio, not for video. :P

Also, this forum has that nifty "Ignore user" list - if you didn't use it before, why not give it a try and put leeperry on it?
Out of topic

np: Holz - Glut (Musick To Play In The Club)
Out of topic...

[leeperry]

this is off-topic, but everyone knows MPC HC is the best mediaplayer in the world :)

I've known Reclock's author for a long while, and guess what.....Reclock works perfectly fine in KMP with HR :)

it actually works in MPC HC, but MPC's presenter is not tight enough to cope with Reclock's demanding timings........so after 45/60' it drops frames :eek:

well you haven't tried subs in KMP, it's like subs nirvana :)

well playlists in KMP are too awesome, you can simply press NEXT and it opens the next file in the same folder...automatic playlist :)

or you can enable the "seamless playback" and it will virtually paste all the files in the same folder as one big file all at once :eek:

but keep on flaming me, I like it A LOT :D

[pirlouy]

I've known Reclock's author for a long while, and guess what.....Reclock works perfectly fine in KMP with HR :)
Have you talking to him about this bug with MPC HC ? Maybe he could help resolving your issue. But reclock will still be a buggy tool I think. :P

By the way, yeah I'm a newbie, ... what is this jitter thing everybody talks about ? I think I have understood what tearing is (when there's a lag in a part _top or bottom_ of video display) but I'm not sure to see what advantage offers HR for this "jitters" problem.

[leeperry]

I know the MPC HC's main authors pretty well too, but this is too low level for anyone to be able to fix it.

and Gabest gave up a while ago.

jitter is the most annoying problem in the digital world, check out google :)

anyhow soon there will be a new player with its own A/V renderers, and that will render Reclock useless.......a friend of mine is working on it atm, can't disclose more informations at this point.

this will offer perfect A/V sync in 48/50/59.94Hz with the lowest jitter ever....the ultimate HTPC's dream :D

PS : oh look, another HR bug :D

this is with 1280*768 video upscaled from SD, AR is 1.33

I was hoping that HR's BT.601 matrix were fine, so sending YUY2 would have been an option so I could beef up my LSF settings in ffdshow........but that's a no no :devil:

I didn't touch anything, just pressed play.

RGB32 :

http://pix.nofrag.com/a/c/2/1e5d091f7aca5e013fbc5b612e871tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/a/c/2/1e5d091f7aca5e013fbc5b612e871.html)

YUY2 :

http://pix.nofrag.com/d/f/e/3f6a9583cc1a00a43d5295a63e22dtt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/d/f/e/3f6a9583cc1a00a43d5295a63e22d.html)

[cca]

I just switched to an ATI card after years of buying only nvidia, and I have not noticed any of these bugs in my ATI 4850. Which may suggest problems with the older ATI cards which were fixed in the latest generation.

[tekNerd]

Hi guys.
I was wondering if u can tell me why OSD from Haali doesn't work for me.
I am using MPCHC 1.1.613 with latest ffdshow-tryouts beta.
Thank u.

[cca]

Hi guys.
I was wondering if u can tell me why OSD from Haali doesn't work for me.
I am using MPCHC 1.1.613 with latest ffdshow-tryouts beta.
Thank u.

The only case I know for it not work, is when Haali uses PS 1.1 scaler instead of PS 2.0. That depends totally on your Graphics card, which you do not mention. By OSD you mean the one that appears by pressing right ATL + O, right?

[leeperry]

I just switched to an ATI card after years of buying only nvidia, and I have not noticed any of these bugs in my ATI 4850. Which may suggest problems with the older ATI cards which were fixed in the latest generation.
humm, interesting.
gonna ask a friend on HCFR who's a long time HR user, he just bought one.

but the problem is in the drivers, I think you didn't look hard enough :D

does it say "S" or "SS" in HR's OSD ?

[neoufo51]

When I use Haali Renderer on MPC to play back a high definition H.264 file such as a Quicktime trailer or an MKV contained film, I get a huge video slowdown whenever I right click the video to bring up the context menu onscreen. One I left click anywhere else to get rid of the context menu, the slowdown goes away.

Anybody else experiencing this?
Would anybody like to comment on my earlier question, which I've quoted?

[cca]

humm, interesting.
gonna ask a friend on HCFR who's a long time HR user, he just bought one.

but the problem is in the drivers, I think you didn't look hard enough :D

does it say "S" or "SS" in HR's OSD ?

It was "SS" for sure. I use HR for a long time now, but until recently I had an Nvidia 8800GTS. Still, with Catalyst 8.7 beta on my ATi 4850 I failed to notice artifacts like ghosting or wrong zooming. It could be the drivers, can't argue with that, I'm just mentioning my experiences.

[leeperry]

@neoufo51 : did you update to the latest Windows SP ?
update all your drivers(chipset as well)
I've never ever heard of this problem :eek:

@cca : I'll wait for my friend's feedback and I'll get back to you.
but that'd be good news :)

zooming in MPC is centered ?!

[cca]

@cca : I'll wait for my friend's feedback and I'll get back to you.
but that'd be good news :)

zooming in MPC is centered ?!

I specifically tried zooming in and out since I read your post, and it was just fine. I did all tests in my LG 32" TV, the image is big enough for anyone to notice potential problems.

[leeperry]

/me is off to install 8.7 beta drivers :D

[cca]

Be warned, some ppl reported BSODs with these. I didn't have problems, but not one system is the same with another after all. Good luck.

[tekNerd]

Ok, this is my info:
Processore: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz (2999 MHz)
Sistema operativo: Microsoft Windows XP (Service Pack 2)
Versione DirectX: 9.0c
Videocard: Geforce PCX 5750
Versione ForceWare: 174.74
Memoria: 256 MB
Versione BIOS video: 4.36.20.41.32
IRQ: 24
Bus: PCI Express x16

I am using this beta cause the latest stable is breaking my dualview setup.

[fastplayer]

Would anybody like to comment on my earlier question, which I've quoted?
Disable AA.

[leeperry]

ok so thanks to clsid's voodoo magic(thank you so much grandmaster!! :D), the ghost lines problem seems to have improved on low amplitude scaling with the 8.7beta, but not gone.

this is with some zoom :

http://pix.nofrag.com/8/e/a/9140eff88ff4d9fc67b8d50096d8btt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/8/e/a/9140eff88ff4d9fc67b8d50096d8b.html)

and this is with a bit more :

http://pix.nofrag.com/8/5/1/f6a22cb50e9e2d3abf4b2cf882a46tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/8/5/1/f6a22cb50e9e2d3abf4b2cf882a46.html)

and zoom is still up in the sky even with the 8.7beta drivers, this is a problem on the HR side maybe ?

original :

http://pix.nofrag.com/0/1/1/3b9c78f1860709a291e6ab0b64be8tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/0/1/1/3b9c78f1860709a291e6ab0b64be8.html)

zoomed :

http://pix.nofrag.com/4/9/d/ee6e2aecfd2e0b582143e68314f2ett.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/4/9/d/ee6e2aecfd2e0b582143e68314f2e.html)

the same file in YUY2 instead of RGB32HQ(no filters enabled in ffdshow, simply decoding>YUY2, picture is perfectly fine in VMR9) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/4/b/4/c2fc52b62fb612e42393e53f26e84tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/4/b/4/c2fc52b62fb612e42393e53f26e84.html)

[cca]

leeperry, I have no idea what's causing your problems, I only feed YUY2 in HR, and never had such a weird problem with my nvidia, or my current ATi card. It scales the image properly, and zooms properly too. But in the end, we don't have the same card or OS.

[leeperry]

yeah I dunno why YUY2 looks funky like that, will try some older version of ffdshow.....but when I see how fishy the REC709 matrix is in HR, I don't think I would trust its REC601 anyway :D

about the zoom issue, it's perfectly fine with VMR9, will ask my friend with the HD4850 :)

[neoufo51]

@neoufo51 : did you update to the latest Windows SP ?
update all your drivers(chipset as well)
I've never ever heard of this problem :eek:
I'm running SP3, I just updated the chipset, and I had the latest drivers from Nvidia.

I will try to disable AA as fastplayer suggested when I get home.

[Loul00]

First things first:I'd like to thank Haali and Gabest for this wonderful,wonderful software !

I've been following this thread for quite a while now since the HR has become my default renderer whenever possible .
HOWEVER,I'm growing slowly but surely angry about a few things.
My rig:
x2 4200+/x1650 xt;pwdvd 7.3,ZP using pwdvd codecs mostly(NO ffdshow or mpc-hd).
This configuration allowed me to watch anything in perfect conditions until dtshd-MA showed up (And PCM 24 Bits actually,cause of the bitrate).So I need an upgrade.CPU being compromised ,I have to look at the gpu.
I've been posponing the upgrade (I have in mind a HD 3650) because some people (Oui,je pense essentiellement à toi,Leeperry) have been flooding this thread with comments about the HR found wanting when it came to upscaling with radeo HD cards (Upscaling wich is performed without any single glitch by my x1650xt with 1.7.401.3 ).
But now,after reading cca comments ,something came to my mind (I know,I can be slow):

how many people having these ghost lines pbs (Among others)have also ffdshow and/or its flavours installed in their system ? Everybody,cca included ?

Because,could it be that all these pbs be caused by the presence of this troublemaker codec ? I must say I'm really intrigued and impatient.Thank you for your answers.

[clsid]

ffdshow has nothing to do with that issue.

[ranpha]

Somehow, I managed to eliminate the ghost line problem with my ATI IGP (780G) and HR, if I were to use ffdshow and resize the video to my monitor native res. With that, HR will use the NN instead of SS which results in no ghost lines.

http://pix.nofrag.com/2/f/d/91593820c007ed1e148ec18e3fb17tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/2/f/d/91593820c007ed1e148ec18e3fb17.html)

http://pix.nofrag.com/f/1/a/86929354b0e9d0cd8ebaef994376btt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/f/1/a/86929354b0e9d0cd8ebaef994376b.html)
Resizing to monitor resolution also results in much sharper and better looking subtitles, which is an added boost.

[cca]

That is one way to do it, but results in high CPU usage, and renders one of the best HR features useless. But if you really want to use HR, I guess you're out of options if your hardware does not cooperate.

[Loul00]

cca,do you have some kind of ffdsshow installed and wich catalyst drivers are you using ? Thanks.

[cca]

I do have ffdshow, I update it often, at the moment I have revision 2020. Also, I use Catalyst 8.7 beta.

[clsid]

ffdshow has nothing to do with that issue.
I will repeat myself so you guys won't waste your time chasing ghosts.

The ghost lines problem with shader resize is purely caused by the driver/hardware. PERIOD.

[cca]

hehe, basically I know that clsid is absolutely right, but was too tired yesterday to type a long post. So I just replied to the question directly. Indeed, ffdshow or any other decoder, is totally irrelevant to the problem.

[ranpha]

That is one way to do it, but results in high CPU usage, and renders one of the best HR features useless. But if you really want to use HR, I guess you're out of options if your hardware does not cooperate.

What is the feature you are talking about? Another question, between S, SS, NN and AA, which one is the best?

It is true that ffdshow does not cause the problem, but it can help mitigate it, at high CPU usage of course.

[cca]

I am talking about it's bicubic scaler ofcourse. SS means it is using bicubic resizing to upscale the video utilizing the pixel shaders of the card. NN means no resize done, AA means anisotropic filtering (used to downscale the image). There are 2 letters, one for the horizontal aspect and one for the vertical.

[pitch.fr]

hello I have a HD4850 on Windows XP SP3.

the zoom is centered in YUY2, but not in RGB.

I also get the pesky ghost lines with horizontal resizing, but not with vertical I think.
Only solution is to upscale in ffdshow.

still I love HR, nobody's perfect eh ?

[pitch.fr]

is there any way to enable ICC color correction in full screen ?

it works in windowed mode, but it flips back to default in full screen :(

basically if there was a way to enable PS scripts in HR, we could use 3D LUT's to get 1:1 colors on bluray's :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1161652#post1161652

the native bluray gamut is SMPTE-C, due to the telecine studios that didn't update to HDTV

[yesgrey]

anyhow soon there will be a new player with its own A/V renderers, and that will render Reclock useless.......a friend of mine is working on it atm, can't disclose more informations at this point.

Do you know if the audio renderer will support the WAVE/MME API and/or Kernel Streaming? I only use reclock because is the only audio renderer using this API. I need it for bit perfect output with my RME Fireface 400.

[rack04]

I think I found a bug in Haali Media Splitter. I cannot get this file (http://rapidshare.com/files/131388181/Departed_Trailer_XVID-muxed.mp4.html) to play using MPC-HC and Haali Media Splitter. I encoded this file with MeGUI using XVID 2 Pass HQ video profile, NDAAC-LC Multichannel HQ audio profile, and muxed into a mp4 container.

According to MediaInfo:

General
Complete name : C:\Personal\Videos\Departed Trailer_XVID-muxed.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 48.9 MiB
Duration : 2mn 24s
Overall bit rate : 2848 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:33
Tagged date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:33

Video
Format : MPEG-4 Visual
Format profile : Streaming Video@L1
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, QPel : Yes
Format settings, GMC : No warppoints
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Codec ID : 20
Duration : 2mn 24s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 2588 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 8504 Kbps
Width : 1920 pixels
Height : 816 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.35
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Resolution : 8 bits
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.066
Stream size : 44.4 MiB (91%)
Writing library : XviD 1.2.0.dev47 (UTC 2006-11-01)
Encoded date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:33
Tagged date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:35

Audio
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 2mn 24s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 257 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 393 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Rear: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Stream size : 4.41 MiB (9%)
Encoded date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:35
Tagged date : UTC 2008-07-20 16:16:35



When I try to play this file with MPC-HC and Haali Media Splitter I only get the audio. BTW, I have FFDshow Tryout SVN 2045, MPC-HC SVN 678, and Haali Media Splitter 29/03/2008 installed. Using the MPC-HC internal MP4 splitter the video plays. Thanks.

[clsid]

Haali renderer != Haali Media Splitter

So wrong topic.

[rack04]

Haali renderer != Haali Media Splitter

So wrong topic.

Sorry I meant Haali Media Splitter. MPC-HC internal MP4 splitter works with this file but not Haali Media Splitter. I'll edit my post to reflect this change.

[jellysandwich]

I tried playing a 1920x1080 video on my 1280x800 laptop, but only got a black screen.
It resizes correctly and plays audio, but no video. I also noticed that it doesn't use
my CPU at all (CPU usage stays at around 10%). Is this intentional?

Specs:
1.6ghz Core Duo
1gb RAM
Intel 945G video card
CoreAVC for video
ffdshow for audio
Haali's renderer

(I know that I shouldn't be playing 1080 videos on such a weak laptop; I'm just testing stuff out.)

Edit: Huh, weird. After trying a few more times, it started working... Guess my laptop is just messed up.

[pitch.fr]

ok so here's a comparison with BT.709 content in HR and in ffdshow :

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3989/comparohrffbx9.png

conducted with this test pattern : http://www.w6rz.net/bars709.zip

and it's exactly the same with the 601 pattern, the conversion is far more accurate in ffdshow : http://www.w6rz.net/bars601.zip

and Haali told me a month ago by email that he might include this PS script in HR :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720

so we could finally get gamut conversion in HR....but well, I guess that's never gonna happen :(

HR is by far the smoothest and the best PC video renderer hands down, just a few fixes here and there and it could be perfect :eek:

Haali could even turn it shareware, neither I or my folks on AVS/HCFR would mind shelling a few bucks for such a fantastic piece of software :)

[Mangix]

little question here. currently on my vista PC, Haali Renderer gives me jitter at around 8.5ms. i get no dropped frames but if i use a renderer like VMR9, i get around 1ms jitter with a 29.97fps file(running at 60hz refresh rate) and with reclock, i get 0 when i set it to nearest integer. but for some reason, Haali always stays at 8.5ms no matter how i configure reclock. is there any reason for it?

[pitch.fr]

I'd say you get tons of dropped frames at +8ms, that's the limit at which HR starts dropping.

ideally using HR+Reclock, you need to run 47.952/48Hz for 23.976/24fps, 50Hz for 25fps and 59.94Hz for 29.97fps.

I usually get <0.05ms jitter :

http://pix.nofrag.com/3/7/2/f9dd4bb16cde2c99452be634e747f.png

[jellysandwich]

Is there a way to get higher quality subtitles with Haali's renderer?

It seems like it doesn't use the full desktop resolution, which leads to fuzzy and jaggy subtitles...

[Kado]

That only seems to happen with MPC HC, check with kmplayer. I prefer MPC HC anyway.

[pitch.fr]

anyone using an ATI card sometimes gets his media player hanging at shut down ?

I usually need to kill MPC/KMP with the task manager.

this "deadlock" problem was solved with a previous release of HR where it was a lot worse before, but it still happens for me from time to time on XP SP3 with the 8.x drivers :(

with EVR, it never hangs...tested with MPC HC and KMPlayer.

http://pix.nofrag.com/1/0/a/d1278051e72152d5abd4efdf439fett.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/1/0/a/d1278051e72152d5abd4efdf439fe.html)

[JarrettH]

Can someone tell me what I need to have setup in ffdshow to work with haali correctly? :thanks:

I've got it setup doing RGB32 output. I remember I didn't use Haali in the past for not supporting YV12...is that relevant anymore? The most useful info I can find on this splitter is the first post from 2 years ago. Does "supported spaces" mean output?

[clsid]

You don't have to change anything.

[AspectRadio]

I was wondering if it was possible to use the Haali renderer with WMP 11 (Vista) without having to tweak anything too advanced (i.e. registry stuff)?

Additional info: I have the latest CCCP installed.

[clsid]

Not possible. It requires major tweakage.

[THX-UltraII]

0-255 vs. 16-235 on HTPC, trying to understand what is going on

I ve finally managed to get a totally stutter free HTPC where I playback 3 kinds of video files:
1. Standard def. dvd material, 2. .wmv HD files and 3. .mkv HD files.

I use windows XP with sp3 installed on have a ATI HD 4350 video card. My HTPC is connected to my digital projector, the Mitsubishi HC7000 (HDMI out on HD4350 to HDMI1 in on HC7000). I use the latest driver for the 4350, 8.10driver (note that the 8.11 driver does not support the 4350! I ve checked this!).

As for software playback on my HTPC I use Media Player Classic HC with Haali’s Video Renderer (and for .mkv files Core AVC 1.8.5 comes in).

The ‘problem’ I now run into is the so called ‘Luma Range’ in Haali’s Video Renderer (and Input Levels and Output Levels in the Core AVC options). All three (Luma Range, Input Levels and Output Levels) can be set to TV (16-235) or PC (0-255). I do know that it is the color range of the video, but would like to know 2 things:

1. What is the best to pick if you have the ATI HD4350 and a digital projector like me for Luma Range, Input Levels and Output levels?
2. When I select 16-235 the picture that my projector displays becomes more dark and selecting 0-255 makes the picture look more grey and brighter. What should I select?

Thanks for all help!

[leeperry]

there's no need to ask the same question in 2 threads ;)

it depends on whether your pj offers the option to work in 16-235 or 0-255

if it's TV range only, output 16-235 from HR by checking "PC range"...meaning there won't be any level conversion

if it can work in PC range(a PC does a better RGB conversion than most displays), then check "TV range" and HR will convert from TV to PC

for ultimate RGB goodness, use ffdshow in RGB32HQ.......or better ConvertToRGB32() in the AVS filter of ffdshow(it makes 5% larger PNG files, so it's prolly more accurate)

besides using HR in YUY2 is not the best idea, as its BT601/709 coeffs are not green enough(only matters if your display is D65 calibrated)

[THX-UltraII]

there's no need to ask the same question in 2 threads ;)

sorry for this, other topic is closed.

it depends on whether your pj offers the option to work in 16-235 or 0-255

I looked up the manual just a moment ago but cannot find anything on 16-235 / 0-255 support.

if it's TV range only, output 16-235 from HR by checking "PC range"...meaning there won't be any level conversion

I do not understand what you are saying here m8, IF my HC7000 only supports TV Range (16-235), shouldn t I check TV Range (16-235) instead of PC range (0-255)? Correct me if I m wrong please!

if it can work in PC range(a PC does a better RGB conversion than most displays), then check "TV range" and HR will convert from TV to PC

Same as above: should t I pick PC range if my display supports PC Range?

for ultimate RGB goodness, use ffdshow in RGB32HQ.......or better ConvertToRGB32() in the AVS filter of ffdshow(it makes 5% larger PNG files, so it's prolly more accurate)

sorry man, don t understand this :( Can I achieve this maybe by choosing this as an external filter in the options of MPC HC?

besides using HR in YUY2 is not the best idea, as its BT601/709 coeffs are not green enough(only matters if your display is D65 calibrated)

Also don t understand you here :( Are you saying maybe that Haali's Renderer only uses YUY2 and that this is not good for picture quality/colors?

Thanks for all help m8!

[leeperry]

I looked up the manual just a moment ago but cannot find anything on 16-235 / 0-255 support.
well, look again :)

my HC3100 works in 0-255 in 1280*768, but 16-235 in 1280*720...it's clearly explained in the manual.

you can also use test patterns to find that out.

HR's levels conversion talks about the source, not the destination levels.

your source is 16-235, if you want no conversion and output 16-235 set it to "PC levels"

if your display is 0-255, set it to TV, so it converts from TV to PC ;)

what I meant is that if your HC7k is D65 calibrated, you may wanna use HR in RGB32 instead of YUY2 coz its YCrCb>RGB conversion coeffs are not green enough.

if your display is not carefully calibrated with a commercial sensor(eye one display/spyder) then it don't matter :p

[THX-UltraII]

well, look again :)

my HC3100 works in 0-255 in 1280*768, but 16-235 in 1280*720...it's clearly explained in the manual.

It must be me but I cannot find it anywhere in the manual of the HC7000. http://www.mitsubishielectric.nl/Products/Projectors/Home_Cinema/HC7000.aspx?pgeId=201&objectname=ProductShow&pdtId=221&pcyId=16

you can also use test patterns to find that out.

Which test patern could I use for this?

HR's levels conversion talks about the source, not the destination levels.

So with the Core AVC codec I should use Input Levels TV and Output Levels TV or PC depending on my projector capabilities?

your source is 16-235, if you want no conversion and output 16-235 set it to "PC levels"

understood!

if your display is 0-255, set it to TV, so it converts from TV to PC ;)

clear!

what I meant is that if your HC7k is D65 calibrated, you may wanna use HR in RGB32 instead of YUY2 coz its YCrCb>RGB conversion coeffs are not green enough.

It is D6500 calibrated.
How do I use Haali's Renderer in RGB32? I cannot select this anywhere.

if your display is not carefully calibrated with a commercial sensor(eye one display/spyder) then it don't matter :p

My display is ISF professionally calibrated :)


What do you recommend for filter using when you want to display standard def. dvd's, hd wmv's and hd .mkv's?

VMR9/Haali/Core AVC or Haali/Core AVC only? Or something else?

Thanks again for all help Perry!

[leeperry]

you can use the THX test available on most Lucas/Disney DVD's to find out whether your pj works in PC or TV mode I guess.

I got CoreAVC set to TV levels for both input/output

if you wanna use HR in RGB32, your best option is to add ffdshow in RGB32 and check "high quality YV12 to RGB32 conversion"....I know CoreAVC can output RGB32 but I ain't sure whether it does it HQ :D

well I use a variety of Avisynth scripts from Didee on my HD movies, but anyway if your display is ISF calibrated that'd be a shame to watch movies within the super-funky wide gamut of your HC7k :eek:

movies are mastered in SMPTE-C for US/ASIA, and EBU for Europe, so you may wanna put this script to good use to get proper colors(and not grossly oversaturated) :
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720

these are the ref gamuts :

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/download/file.php?id=54246

and this is your HC7k :

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/BE/HC7000/usine-cie.jpg

I'm in contact with Haali so he adds gamut conversion into HR, but it doesn't work too well atm :(

anyhow you're a newbie at this point, and there's MUCH knowledge that you need to acquire...if you speak french I got a link that might save your day :D

[THX-UltraII]

you can use the THX test available on most Lucas/Disney DVD's to find out whether your pj works in PC or TV mode I guess.
I just found out that my HC7000 does support both 16-235 and 0-255. I can select this by switching between input mode (normal or enhanced) in my setup of the HC7000

if you wanna use HR in RGB32, your best option is to add ffdshow in RGB32 and check "high quality YV12 to RGB32 conversion"
can I do this by just installing latest ffshow version and then select External Filters in MPC HC and add high quality YV12 to RGB32 conversion filter?

anyhow you're a newbie at this point, and there's MUCH knowledge that you need to acquire...if you speak french I got a link that might save your day :D
I m trying the best I can:rolleyes: Don t speak French at all, just a little English :cool:


I ask my same question on the Video Help forum http://forum.videohelp.com/topic360331.html. A gut named jagabo suggested my to use Overlay as Output Renderer. What is you opinion on that? Isn t VMR9 providing better picture quality than overlay?

As you can see in that topic he provided me with 2 .mpg file which has a grey patch in it. I quote from another topic:

On a properly calibrated system the patches marked 16, 12, 4, and 0 should all be perfectly black. You should be able to see that 20 is slightly lighter than black. The patches marked 235, 239, 251, and 255 should all be full white. 231 should be slightly darker. You should be able to see a difference between all the patches in the row from 16 to 235.

Isn t it so that my screen has to look like this picture (showing BTB and WTW correct right?).:
http://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1913273/not.png[/quote][/quote]

and not like this?:
http://forum.videohelp.com/images/guides/p1913273/should.png

Correct me again if I m wrong please and thxz again for your help.

[leeperry]

no, you have to use ffdshow and output RGB32HQ for proper BT601/709>RGB conversion.

Overlay is a legacy video renderer, HR is far better! smoother, support LUT's, frames cache, automatic BT601/709 conversion in YUY2, etc etc ;)

set your pj to PC range, and enjoy the show

[cyberbeing]

So it sounds like Haali gave you a test version of Haali Renderer with gamut conversion? How long ago was that? Did he ever tell you how far along he is in implementing it? Was he still just experimenting with how to implement it, the last you talked to him?

Another thing that would be nice to see in the next version of Haali Renderer, would be having the frame buffer increased to at least 512MB. With 256MB it's only able to hold very few 1080p RGB frames.

[leeperry]

he did yeah, but it doesn't work at this point.........apparently the 1/0.45 gamma correction of the 3D LUT is not effective or sumthing :(

that was like a week ago ;)

Haali is a very busy man, and his HMS/HR package doesn't have a very high priority on his TODO list...so don't count on it I'd say.

how many 1080p frames can you fit in 256MB ?

[cyberbeing]

Anyway it's still nice to hear that Haali is even partially working on that 3D LUT gamut conversion as you have been talking about that for a long time.

how many 1080p frames can you fit in 256MB ?

1920x1080 RGB = 32 frames
1920x1080 YUY2 = 64 frames

[leeperry]

well 32 frames is more than enough, I'd say.

anything above 6 is overkill from what Casimir666 told me a while ago, and creates unwanted latency I think.

and basically it's good if it's a multiple of the actual frame rate......I got it set to 6 max myself, works fine for 24fps in Reclock :D

well I use the original gamut PS script in ffdshow with the Avishader script, so it's no big deal if HR can't do it itself.

but the frames go back & forth between the GPU<>CPU, so it sucks a lot of CPU......but it's either this or use MPC HC in VMR9/EVR :eek:

and it sucks too much CPU for 1080p on my o/c Q6600, but well next year we'll all have Nehalem...

[Steveo08]

1920x1080 RGB = 32 frames
1920x1080 YUY2 = 64 frames[/QUOTE]



is that the same for 720p in hr?

[NoX1911]

how many 1080p frames can you fit in 256mb ?
1920x1080 rgb = 32 frames
1920x1080 yuy2 = 64 frames
rgb24=43
yuy2=64
yv12=86

[cyberbeing]

is that the same for 720p in hr?
No. For 1280x720:
YUY2=145
RGB32=72

rgb24=43
yuy2=64
yv12=86

Why are you listing values for RGB24 and YV12? Haali Renderer doesn't support RGB24 or YV12. The only input it supports (and caches) is RGB32 and YUY2.

[Steveo08]

[QUOTE=cyberbeing;1224767]No. For 1280x720:
YUY2=145
RGB32=72



thank you! but how did you calculate it?

[cyberbeing]

No. For 1280x720:
YUY2=145
RGB32=72


thank you! but how did you calculate it?

The simple way, if you own a video card with more then 256MB of memory, is to just set the frame cache to 256MB, open a video, and look at the Haali Renderer statistics to see how many frames it caches.

An alternative method for RGB32 is to save a uncompressed RGB32 BMP with the dimensions you want and divide the size of the BMP by 256MB (rounding down). As for YUY2, I'm not too familiar with how to save an uncompressed YUY2 image to do the same method.

[Steveo08]

The simple way, if you own a video card with more then 256MB of memory, is to just set the frame cache to 256MB, open a video, and look at the Haali Renderer statistics to see how many frames it caches.

An alternative method for RGB32 is to save a uncompressed RGB32 BMP with the dimensions you want and divide the size of the BMP by 256MB (rounding down). As for YUY2, I'm not too familiar with how to save an uncompressed YUY2 image to do the same method.



thanks for the info. :)

[RealNC]

I have big problems with Haali's renderer and some 60FPS videos I made when playing them full screen (in MPC-HC 1.1.796.0). Example video where this happens:

Video (99.8MB) (http://foss.math.aegean.gr/~realnc/vids/3DMark2000.mkv)
Mirror if above doesn't work. (http://realnc.kamenos.gr/3DMark2000.mkv)

Playing this full screen on my 1280x1024 desktop (so the renderer scales it from 640x480 to 1280x960) results in big framedrops. The video is 60FPS but Haali's can't keep up; it drops lots of frames and only does 48-50FPS. It plays fine only if I leave it windowed 1:1 with no scaling. CPU load is very low in either case. Same with GPU load (reported by Catalyst 8.12 and GPU-Z.)

This is under Windows XP SP3 on an Intel Core 2 Duo @ 3.33GHz, 4GB DDR2 RAM and a Radeon HD4870. I don't know if I'm asking for too much, but can someone confirm the problem is actually with Haali's renderer rather than with something else on my system by trying to play the video?

[cyberbeing]

I think it is a Haali Renderer issue with certain resolution/refresh combos and fullscreen 60fps content. It is something like a lag where it can't achieve 60fps but only in fullscreen. If you maximize the window (instead of going fullscreen), does the problem go away?

[RealNC]

No, it still drops frames. If I resize the window, the bigger I make it, the worse the framedrop gets. 640x480 (1:1): 60FPS. ~800x600: ~58FPS. ~1024x768: 56FPS. 1280x960: 48FPS.

[cyberbeing]

It must be a difference because you have an ATI card and I have an NVIDIA card. On mine I only see a low framerate in full screen when my monitor is set to the same resolution as yours (1280x1024@60Hz right?). Maximized or at any other resolution, it's perfect.

Edit: Well I rolled back to the Haali Renderer included with the 6/3/2007 build of MatroskaSplitter and the problem went away completely. Every build 11/18/2007 and newer seems to have a 60fps, fullscreen, low framerate problem, with certain resolution/refresh combos on my PC.
/me kicks himself for taking over a year to realize there was a problem when Haali was around more often. :(
I guess that means I should try to track down Haali and hope he still has the source code from way back then.

Edit2: PM sent to Haali

[shaolin95]

I was trying to use Haali again to compare against EVR but the image is upside down!
Any ideas? :-)

[cyberbeing]

You must be outputting RGB and using a decoder that doesn't realize it should be flipping the output (or flipping it when it should not).

[shaolin95]

I am using ffdshow and yes, using avisynth ConvertoRGB32. With EVR Cust it works fine though. Any way to correct this behavior then?

[cyberbeing]

Well it shouldn't be doing that. FFDshow and ConverttoRGB32 works fine over here. Is your ffdshow a recent tryout build (http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=173941&package_id=199416)? Anything else in the filter graph except FFDshow?

When connecting FFDshow directly to Haali Renderer the output colorspace under Info&CPU should be using and report "RGB32". Video is displayed correct.
When connecting FFDshow through VSFilter and then to Haali Renderer the output colorspace under Info&CPU should be using and report "RGB32, Flipped". Video is displayed correct.

On some rare files (I would say <1%) the video ends up flipped no matter what when using Haali Renderer with RGB. Does the same thing happen to you for all files? I know I have some anamorphic xvid MKVs from 2005 which always end up flipped whenever outputting RGB32 for whatever reason. Could you upload a sample?

As a workaround you could check 'Flip video' in FFDshow's output panel, but you really shouldn't have to do that under normal circumstances.

[shaolin95]

I will check all that and report back...
thanks a lot for the suggestions cyberbeing.
BTW, is there a way to get a full report on the filters I am using to post here?

[cyberbeing]

What player are you using?

With MPC you could just right click on the video, roll over filters, hit PrtScn, and paste the resulting screenshot into paint or something.

With Zoom Player you would right click on the video, roll over filter properties, click Graph Information, expand all the + signs resize the window so everything is shown, hit PrtScn, and paste the resulting screenshot into paint or something.

[aydc]

Does anyone know if the project is still alive? It's been almost a year since the renderer was last updated.

[Astrophizz]

It's not so much a project I don't think (at least not a community one). Leeperry can probably give you the latest info since he is in touch with Haali... I think there have been updates but no official release. Maybe with coreAVC 2.0....

[Mistar Muffin]

I am having a problem with the built in resizing in Haali's renderer. My HTPC is using and unusual resolution, and I assume that's the problem. My HTPC has a custom timing of 1808x1020. This is what fits my screen. It let's me account for overscan without scaling. It works. However, when Haali upscales standard def material, such as XviD to that resolution, I get a faint checkerboard pattern in the video. It looks like very large macroblocking but it does not move. The checkboard pattern remains static in the picture. It's not easy to see but it's there. I know it is Haali becuause I can go into ffdshow and enable resizing, and I told ffdshow to resize everything to 1808 width while maintaining AR. This eliminates the artifacts (still using Haali renderer). In fact, with video fullscreen, I can use the ffdshow options to enable/disable the resizing and see the checkerboard pattern appear and disappear. Is there any chance of getting this bug fixed or is my workaround the best I'm going to get? I hate resizing everything ffdshow decodes without discrimination.

Thanks fellas.

[leeperry]

there have been updates but no official release.
yep
when Haali upscales standard def material, such as XviD to that resolution, I get a faint checkerboard pattern in the video.
and you have an ATi card, right ?
resize to native res in ffdshow, and your troubles will be far away.
the good side is that you can upscale in spline36, HR only does bicubic :o

[Steveo08]

@leeperry

is it possible to get the inofficial release from haali?

[leeperry]

@leeperry

is it possible to get the inofficial release from haali?
ask Haali http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/mrbrelle.gif

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Haali Media Splitter 2009-01-11

Haali Media Splitter

Changes

11/01/2009

New Features:

The shortcut for gdsmux is created in the start menu

Fixed items:

Broken Matroska files with looped SeekHeads could cause a hang in Matroska Parser, the number of SeekHeads is now limited to 10
Removed the workaround to find tags written by Matroska Shell Extension, this caused excessive file scanning when opening files created by recent MKVToolnix
File linking is now enabled by default




http://haali.cs.msu.ru/mkv/

[clsid]

Great news. Although the changelog is surprisingly short.

[Snowknight26]

Still has the LPCM bug, no?

[cyberbeing]

The problem with new Haali Renderer builds described in post #1261 (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1231443&postcount=1261) still exists, but considering he hasn't checked the forum since July 2008, he probably hasn't even seen my PM yet.

[STaRGaZeR]

Still has the LPCM bug, no?

Yep :(

[leeperry]

he hasn't checked the forum since July 2008
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1235639&postcount=880

[cyberbeing]

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1235639&postcount=880

Yeah, I noticed that he returned the next morning after I made that post.

leeperry, do you have both an ATI and an nVidia card now? I thought you only had an ATI but you posted a CoreAVC CUDA benchmark a few days back. What card are you using currently?

Do you have the same problem with that video RealNC posted when watching fullscreen at 1280x1024@60hz? If so, does the 6/3/2007 build of Haali Renderer fix it for you like it does for me?

[leeperry]

Yeah, I noticed that he returned the next morning after I made that post.

leeperry, do you have both an ATI and an nVidia card now? I thought you only had an ATI but you posted a CoreAVC CUDA benchmark a few days back. What card are you using currently?

Do you have the same problem with that video RealNC posted when watching fullscreen at 1280x1024@60hz? If so, does the 6/3/2007 build of Haali Renderer fix it for you like it does for me?
I got a GF9600 now.
I've just tried that sample in 1280*1024@59.940 & 1280*768@59.940 w/ Reclock, and the frame rate quickly falls to 48fps and doesn't increase much...

the 6/3/2007 build fixed the problem indeed :eek:

no wonder I had so many problems with the 50fps HD bits from ORF1, and some 59.94fps WMV's :rolleyes:

well good luck getting this bug fixed, I've annoyed Haali for the gamut for like 1 year before I got a reply...I've also told him about all the other problems for +1 year(wrong 601/709 YUY2 coeffs, ghost lines when upscaling on both nvidia/ati, uncentered zoom in RGB32 on ati, jitter problem with 23.976 MKV's in Reclock)

Haali's swamped w/ work, and doesn't have any more free time to work on his fantastic HMS/HR package :(

you still could use his latest package with the dxr.dll from the 6/3/2007 build :p

I personally don't have many videos that are >30fps, so I'll stick w/ the latest build.

[cyberbeing]

you still could use his latest package with the dxr.dll from the 6/3/2007 build :p

I personally don't have many videos that are >30fps, so I'll stick w/ the latest build.

Yep, that is exactly what I have been doing ever since I discovered it fixed it (using old dxr.dll with new everything else).

I don't run into much 60fps content either, but that 6/3/2007 build also feels like it is a bit faster all-around and keeps vsync better (smoother) with my less then exact framerate multiple refresh rates with or without Reclock. That could just be my imagination though.

The only thing I really miss in that old build is the auto selection BT.601/BT.709, but since I send it RGB most of the time anyways, it's not a major annoyance.

[iron2000]

Was hoping for some fix for the grid lines for the resize.
Not really important as ffdshow is doing the resize now.

[aydc]

Was hoping for some fix for the grid lines for the resize.
Not really important as ffdshow is doing the resize now.

Yeah that's a big problem for me too. ffdshow is not the solution because it runs on the CPU and it's slow. Haali runs on the GPU and is much faster, though image quality is not so good beacuse of these visible resize blocks.

[christpunchers2008]

I've noticed the ghostline problem with my ATI HD 3850. With an older card, the x1950, HR was perfect. With 3850, the ghostlines are always there.

But I've found a temporary "fix" to this issue using ATI Tool Tray.
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Tweak/Video-Tweak/ATI-Tray-Tools.shtml

Install it, right click on the icon in your taskbar on the right, go to "Tweaks > standard Tweaks". Under "Shaders", there should be an "Override Pixel Shader Version" pull down area, in there choose anything from 1.1 to 1.4 and this will force your videocard to use the selected version instead of default Pixel Shader 2.0.

Play your video again and the ghostlines should be gone with HR. However without Pixel Shader 2.0 it seems that you cannot sharpen the image with HR (the slider is grayed out). I guess this a 2.0 and above exclusive function. But IMO it's worth the trade-off. I would rather watch the material at its purest state with HR vs. using sharpening to give you pseudo HD while being FORCED to withstand those ugly ghostlines.

[leeperry]

great find, I'll pass it to my friends running ATi!

I also get ghost lines on my GF9600 sometimes, but not w/ very low zoom ratios apparently..

[Amour]

Can Haali render .xvid files?
I have issues finding something to play the softsubs from .xvid files.

[christpunchers2008]

great find, I'll pass it to my friends running ATi!

I also get ghost lines on my GF9600 sometimes, but not w/ very low zoom ratios apparently..

It seems that if I use a lower zoom or overzoom slightly and not full screen zoom the ghostlines disappear. Example: I would use 150% for a 720p video for it to fit perfectly as fullscreen, but the ghostlines are there. But if I go to 152% or 149% zoom the ghostlines are gone.

Do Nvidia have this product with HR or is it exclusive to ATi only?

[leeperry]

It seems that if I use a lower zoom or overzoom slightly and not full screen zoom the ghostlines disappear. Example: I would use 150% for a 720p video for it to fit perfectly as fullscreen, but the ghostlines are there. But if I go to 152% or 149% zoom the ghostlines are gone.

Do Nvidia have this product with HR or is it exclusive to ATi only?
well I've been traumatized by these lines on the ATi, I always send native res to HR since then :D

it's also doable through RivaTuner, I might try it....maybe HR is not as 1:1 as I initially thought :o

http://www.imlin.com/pwh/5200_tweakpage.htm

[Egh]

Can somebody post a screenshot demonstrating these ghostlines? I thought that issue was fixed long time ago...

[iron2000]

Heres one with the lines:
http://stashbox.org/488233/lines.png

[leeperry]

and it would take 5 secs to Haali to fix it....Casimir found the problem in MPC(Haali wrote the PS scaler code there too), he needs to change the sum of one of his PS scripts to 0.98 instead of 1

and same goes for the terrible jitter w/ 23.976fps MKV and Reclock....it's perfect w/ 25/29.97fps MKV, it would take him a few mins to fix the glitch(bad sync between HMS>HR?).

too bad he has no time and no plan on fixing these bugs(we had a few emails that led to NOTHING :()...this package is a lost cause, waiting for mVR to mature and moving on is the best option(MPC's MKV splitter is also becoming more and more usable, and there's the KMP MKV splitter too)

so much lost potential here, so much fantastic work done.....and yet it's :
-totally unusable w/ Reclock and 23.976 MKV(works perfectly on 25!)
-unusuable in YUY2 coz the 601/709 coeffs are messed up
-can't scale on ATi due to these ghost lines
->50fps videos stutter in the latest build, when they work fine in older ones
..and more bugs I forgot about :o

[mark0077]

and it would take 5 secs to Haali to fix it....Casimir found the problem in MPC(Haali wrote the PS scaler code there too), he needs to change the sum of one of his PS scripts to 0.98 instead of 1

and same goes for the terrible jitter w/ 23.976fps MKV and Reclock....it's perfect w/ 25/29.97fps MKV, it would take him a few mins to fix the glitch.

too bad he has no time and no plan on fixing these bugs(we had a few emails that led to NOTHING)...this package is a lost cause, waiting for mVR to mature and moving on is the best option(MPC's MKV splitter is also becoming more and more usable, and there's KMP's MKV splitter too)

so much lost potential here, so much fantastic work done.....and yet it's unusable :(

leeperry, just a question as I know you used Haali alot in the past. How do you get around the fact that Haali and madVR will have problems playing copy protected material.... even stuff like DVD's. I would consider using madVR for its excellent colorspace conversions etc, and then reclock for vsyncing (although I prefer beliyaal's evr-cp), but i can't due to macrovision errors with madVR and Haali.

[leeperry]

AnyDVD fixes the problem I think? maybe DVD43 too?

[mark0077]

AnyDVD fixes the problem I think? maybe DVD43 too?

Excellent. I just wish madshi had a more urgent interest in audio / video sync stuff.... thanks.

[Mark_A_W]

AnyDVD fixes the problem I think? maybe DVD43 too?

Not on Vista. I cannot play a DVD with Haali on Vista, using the Haali Renderer.

Not a problem, coz DVD is dead :cool:

[leeperry]

Excellent. I just wish madshi had a more urgent interest in audio / video sync stuff.... thanks.
mVR is hell smooth here in 48Hz(as much as HR :eek:), did you fiddle w/ your video timings and install Reclock?

[leeperry]

Not on Vista. I cannot play a DVD with Haali on Vista, using the Haali Renderer.

Not a problem, coz DVD is dead :cool:
I usually played the first VOB of the movie and everything was cool(w/ DVD43 in the back), it even allows Reclock to detect the frame rate(it doesn't work w/ .ifo's as you know ;))

but KMP has a "seamless playback" feature that MPC doesn't, so clicking on the 1st VOB opens all the VOB's at once and seamlessly :)

[mark0077]

mVR is hell smooth here in 48Hz(as much as HR :eek:), did you fiddle w/ your video timings and install Reclock?

My TV has some problems at 24hz that Samsung don't seem to want to fix with firmware updates so I am happy with 60hz. If madVR doesn't do anything to keep audio / video in sync I can't see it ever being useful for me in this regard.

[leeperry]

not even 50Hz? you'd be better off timestretching to 25fps than getting constant judder IMO....plus you can PALSpeedDown and timestretch on top of it, so the audio pitch is genuine.

[madshi]

I just wish madshi had a more urgent interest in audio / video sync stuff.... thanks.
I have to build the foundation first before I can put a house on top of it. It doesn't make sense to work on audio/video sync if basic playback doesn't even work perfectly yet. One step at a time.

madVR is just about a week old (!!!). Learn some patience, man!

[mark0077]

Oh I have plenty of patience, relax now!

PS: Everyone appreciates the work on madVR, just excited to see it progress :D:D. Will no doubt be the renderer of choice in the near future. Thanks.

[Jong]

Not on Vista. I cannot play a DVD with Haali on Vista, using the Haali Renderer.

Not a problem, coz DVD is dead :cool:There cannot be a DRM issue if AnyDVD is running. If there is a problem it is with displaying and navigating menus and switching video streams. This can be fixed in the renderer. Sounds like Haali is not going to fix his, but Madshi sounds like he will for sure.

[Jong]

Oh I have plenty of patience, relax now!

PS: Everyone appreciates the work on madVR, just excited to see it progress :D:D. Will no doubt be the renderer of choice in the near future. Thanks.It is right to focus on video quality and reliability first before moving on to fix smoothness/vsync issues.

OT in the Haali thread, I know, but as we are discussing it. I would personally say things will go a lot quicker if MadVR is made so Reclock is able to reliably do its job on vsync rather than reinventing the wheel. We all know how difficult it is to get this right.

That would mean the benefits of VMR9/EVR exclusive mode, no tearing but allowing Reclock to keep frame presentation away from vsync/flip time (by triple buffering?), but with tighter presentation and the quality benefits of MadVR.

[leeperry]

allowing Reclock to keep frame presentation away from vsync/flip time(by triple buffering?)
http://www.image-load.eu/out.php/i157809_d3d.png

http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/lucykc.gif

[Jong]

http://www.image-load.eu/out.php/i157809_d3d.png

http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/lucykc.gifYeah,

a) How do you get this info to display. It used to for me and I disabled it. Now I have no idea how to get it back! :o

b) what does it mean! :o

I think D3D exclusive mode uses triple buffering - it never tears - I'm pretty sure it is truly "flipping" (no blit) the front and back buffers - yet Reclock can still control "vsync". I think it thinks it is controlling "vsync" but in this case it actually controls the time the third buffer is flipped into the back buffer. But I've yet to hear from anyone who really knows the answer, or can be bothered to share it!

[leeperry]

well, open D3DOverrider.exe, force it for MPC and enabled forced triple buffering/VSYNC

then open RivaTuner, go to the monitoring options, add the "D3D events" monitor and there you go.

I can force triple buffering in either the nvidia drivers for MPC/KMP and in D3DOverrider, but HR doesn't care...and it crashes MPC HC+EVR on XP, where it's known to work amazingly well on Vista to make it "stick" to the VSYNC(Reclock never misses the VSYNC fliptime).

for mVR, as you can see it's a no go :o

now for the explanation of what makes it not workee : http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/microsoft.xna.framework.graphics.swapeffect.aspx

[Jong]

well, open D3DOverrider.exe, force it for MPC and enabled forced triple buffering/VSYNC

then open RivaTuner, go to the monitoring options, add the "D3D events" monitor and there you go.

I can force triple buffering in either the nvidia drivers for MPC/KMP and in D3DOverrider, but HR doesn't care...and it crashes MPC HC+EVR on XP, where it's known to work amazingly well on Vista to make it "stick" to the VSYNC(Reclock never misses the VSYNC fliptime).

for mVR, as you can see it's a no go :o

now for the explanation of what makes it not workee : http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/microsoft.xna.framework.graphics.swapeffect.aspxAh yeah thanks. I had forgotten the events were enabled/disabled in Rivatuner :o. Anyway, all is very OT. Will continue elsewhere.

[Mark_A_W]

it even allows Reclock to detect the frame rate(it doesn't work w/ .ifo's as you know ;))

I've never noticed that.

But I really don't watch DVDs anymore. On the rare occasion that I do I tend to convert it to a single MPG anyway.

DVD's get watched on the Tele using the XBMC, not on the projector using the PC.

HD is here and I'm not going back, not unless it's a really cool film (I did just rent Nightbreed on DVD...cool).

Mark

[pokazene_maslo]

Hello. I'm also having that problem with those "ghost lines" when using bicubic resizer and zooming video. I tried MPCHC 1.2.1043.0 x64, 1.2.908 x64, 1.2.908 x86 all with same results. That trick with ATT limiting PS to 1.4 is working.
OS: vista x64 sp1
GPU: ATI HD 3870, cat 9.3

[Mark_A_W]

There cannot be a DRM issue if AnyDVD is running. If there is a problem it is with displaying and navigating menus and switching video streams. This can be fixed in the renderer. Sounds like Haali is not going to fix his, but Madshi sounds like he will for sure.


I get a Macrovision error, even with Anydvd running. Go Figure.

[Jong]

It is probably not a real DRM problem, but is being interpreted as such. Did you see this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1272072#post1272072)?

[LigH]

Excuse me ... is this an example of the "ATI ghost-lines"? A user of the german doom9/Gleitz board reported it for a combination of kmplayer and Haali renderer, on an ATI HD2600 Pro.

http://mitglied.lycos.de/ghumpf/NIM.png

[Astrophizz]

Those look like them, though slightly different from other examples I've seen. It probably varies though.

[LigH]

I got reports that limiting the Pixel Shader version helped. Praise the ATT developer for allowing to save a link that calls the player with the tweak and resets it after quitting it.

[leeperry]

sucks that Haali totally gave up on HR, it barely works when it could be the best renderer ever w/ some minor polishing :(

[Anima123]

I got reports that limiting the Pixel Shader version helped. Praise the ATT developer for allowing to save a link that calls the player with the tweak and resets it after quitting it.

I've searched a little but failed to find how to limit the Pixel Shader version. Could you please give us a link of how-to?

[leeperry]

I've searched a little but failed to find how to limit the Pixel Shader version. Could you please give us a link of how-to?
read the last page or so, it's also possible on nvidia but requires a reboot.

[leeperry]

BTW, I dunno if you guys noticed but HR w/ Reclock in 96.000Hz is simply perfect!

you can seek as much as you want, it NEVER misses the VSYNC :eek:

and the jitter is very stable! double :eek:

if only it worked this well in 48.000Hz :(

now I want a projector that accepts 96Hz....I will try to contact Haali again, maybe he'll have some time to fix HR a bit :)

[Mark_A_W]

Not for me. MadVR at 96hz spanks it.

I've been running 96hz for years and Haali has only been "ok".

[leeperry]

well ok, but KMP doesn't support mVR...and every renderer in MPC(EVR/mVR/VMR9) likes to randomly drop frames after 1H of continuous playback on XP(not just for me, apparently it's a VSYNC lock problem that only Aero or exclusive D3D can fix altogether).

what is amazing is that HR *never* misses the VSYNC in 96Hz, I can seek zillion times and the jitter is always in the 1-3ms region...and it hardly drifts :eek:

in 48Hz, it takes a friggin' miracle to catch the VSYNC properly :(

yeah, as soon as KMP will support mVR(it's in the works I heard) and W7 will be RTM, I might take the big jump...still HR is smooth as hell in 48Hz if you're lucky enough to catch the VSYNC properly, and it doesn't hiccup after 1H on XP :)

I guess Haali will never improve HR, so it's as good as it's gonna get for me atm...and whatever the GUI or the seamless playback will never put me off KMP :D

[Kazuya]

96Hz looks attractive but I haven't any display to test it ! :(
I still use HR at 50Hz with KMP... VSync is good most of time, but needs a rapid control at beginning of the movie.

[chuuey]

i have some tearing happening on my 9400m, using coreavc and cuda acceleration, i guess the memory on the card is lacking, maybe i should upgrade the ram then it will assign more to it, anyone has a similar setup? Maybe i should change something in the renderer settings? other then that it's really great :>

has anyone managed to get this working at all without tearing from time to time on a card with 128vram? I guess i should upgrade the memory to get 256, i hope that solves my problems with all the other renderers than overlays and vmr

[chuuey]

Ok, sorry for the bump on this but i wanted to share my find today, first of all i noticed that every time i played video on my kuro with 24hz output, i was getting a lot of tearing, at first i blamed it on Cuda and coreavc, well, ffdshow did the same thing, so i decided to take this deeper. First thing: my 9400m does not display proper 24hz signal, the refresh rate should be 23.976 and actually it displays in 23.970, so i created a new custom resolution in the control panel, and forced the refresh rate to 23.976, and what do you know? No more tearing, Haali Renderer and CoreAVC+ CUDA, works very nice, i bumped the buffer to 64mb and frames to 4 in the settings, works very well, try it and maybe for people that had this issues this will be a nice solution, btw drivers version 186.81 WQHL and 256mb of vram, cheers :)

[BetaBoy]

well ok, but KMP doesn't support mVR...and every renderer in MPC(EVR/mVR/VMR9) likes to randomly drop frames after 1H of continuous playback on XP(not just for me, apparently it's a VSYNC lock problem that only Aero or exclusive D3D can fix altogether).

what is amazing is that HR *never* misses the VSYNC in 96Hz, I can seek zillion times and the jitter is always in the 1-3ms region...and it hardly drifts :eek:

in 48Hz, it takes a friggin' miracle to catch the VSYNC properly :(

yeah, as soon as KMP will support mVR(it's in the works I heard) and W7 will be RTM, I might take the big jump...still HR is smooth as hell in 48Hz if you're lucky enough to catch the VSYNC properly, and it doesn't hiccup after 1H on XP :)

I guess Haali will never improve HR, so it's as good as it's gonna get for me atm...and whatever the GUI or the seamless playback will never put me off KMP :D

Haali has addressed all of these issues in the upcoming 2.0 version of the Haali Media Splitter.

[Mark_A_W]

Haali has addressed all of these issues in the upcoming 2.0 version of the Haali Media Splitter.


Ok...


SPILL IT!!

Exactly how "upcoming" is upcoming???

[Thunderbolt8]

just like "done" in "it's done when it's done"

[leeperry]

Haali has addressed all of these issues in the upcoming 2.0 version of the Haali Media Splitter.
ok, thanks for the headsup BetaBoy! :eek:

well, if HR could never miss the VSYNC on XP SP3(Beliyaal has shown that it was entirely possible w/ his EVR CP), and not having that god**** annoying ascending/descending jitter problem w/ Reclock on 23.976fps MKV(problem doesn't occur w/ 25 or 29.97)...this would be really awesome! apparently there's too much jitter in HMS's output and it slowly desyncs from HR :confused:

but honestly, I think madVR is sharper and smoother than HR(in perfectly matched refresh rates of course like 25fps@50.000/23.976@48.000Hz etc), and it's now supported by KMP :o

I've explained the problem many many times to Haali, each time he told me he was swamped w/ work and didn't care for Reclock support anyway...

[THX-UltraII]

Ok, I have some issues with the bt.601 and .709 thing that I don t understand and I think that this is the topic where to get answers. (see also my topic http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=150086).

I found out that when I play HD content (.mkv 1080p material) I get different results of the video that is shown when I use different renderers/programs/combinations. I want to know which one is giving me the correct video. In the tests I ve done there are 2 different screenshots.

SCREENSHOT 1:
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/1196/btmt1.png

SCREENSHOT 2:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7241/ampc1.png

Screenshot 1 seems a little greenish and screenshot 2 more blue. I already found out that it all has something to do with the .601 and .709 settings but I don t know which screenshot is 'right'.

Here are the results (all with the same 1080p .mkv file):
- Total Media Theater 3: SCREENSHOT1
- MPC-HC EVR with BT.601 -> BT.709 shader: SCREENSHOT1
- MPC-HC VMR9 with BT.601 -> BT.709 shader: SCREENSHOT1
- MPC-HC EVR without shader: SCREENSHOT2
- MPC-HC VMR9 without shader: SCREENSHOT2
- MPC-HC with Haali Renderer and YUV Colorspace on the Default BT.601: SCREENSHOT1
- MPC-HC with Haali Renderer and YUV Colorspace on BT.709: SCREENSHOT2

[kutjong]

All HD (720p and larger) material should be in BT.709 colorspace, but there's really no way to be sure. Most renderers usually switch to BT.709 when the input resolution is 720p (or 1280 width) or greater.

Anyway, I usually don't see any difference if the wrong colorspace is used so I don't care much anymore, I just leave colorspace to Auto in Haali renderer.
As for your screenshots, I think nr. 2 looks more natural.

[THX-UltraII]

thxz for your reply but I m still waiting for the correct answer: which screenshot is the correct one....... In other words: which renderer/program/combination is correct to use.

btw.: if screenshot 1 is the correct one, Arcsofts Total Media Theater (commercial) has a big problem and sends out the wrong video

[leeperry]

the 601/709 coeffs in HR are severely screwed up..use ffdshow in RGB32HQ as reference.

ati cards will only do 709 if y>719, so 1280*5xx movies will be decoded in 601

[THX-UltraII]

the 601/709 coeffs in HR are severely screwed up..use ffdshow in RGB32HQ as reference.

ati cards will only do 709 if y>719, so 1280*5xx movies will be decoded in 601

So...............WHICH screenshot/setting/combination I posted is correct??

Like, I said before, IS eg. tmt3 giving the correct picture??

[leeperry]

I don't know, use this test pattern in RGB32HQ REC.709 ffdshow, then compare it: http://www.sendspace.com/file/spmmas

you might be shocked by how wrong HR is...and its 601 coeffs are just as wrong..

[THX-UltraII]

I don't know, use this test pattern in RGB32HQ REC.709 ffdshow, then compare it: http://www.sendspace.com/file/spmmas

you might be shocked by how wrong HR is...and its 601 coeffs are just as wrong..

So your saying that FFdshow does a good job in this 709/601 thing? (still dont know exactly what it is). Is it possible to use ffdshow to ONLY do this REC.709 you talk about?

[leeperry]

output RGB32HQ from ffdshow, done :)

but it takes more CPU than HR in YUY2 of course.

Luma (video) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luma_(video)#Rec._601_luma_versus_Rec._709_luma_coefficients)

[THX-UltraII]

output RGB32HQ from ffdshow, done :)

but it takes more CPU than HR in YUY2 of course.

Luma (video) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luma_(video)#Rec._601_luma_versus_Rec._709_luma_coefficients)

and what about the input section of ffdshow? I assume that I have to do something over there in order to 'activate' ffdshow when running a file.

[leeperry]

"raw video" : "all supported" would help I guess

[THX-UltraII]

I don't know, use this test pattern in RGB32HQ REC.709 ffdshow, then compare it: http://www.sendspace.com/file/spmmas

you might be shocked by how wrong HR is...and its 601 coeffs are just as wrong..

When playing this file, what is correct? Seeing al the squares displayed?

I still don t understand it entirely: I have my ATI CCC setting on Full RGB output. If I use this, you would say that I dont need the ffdshow HQ RGB32 output?

[leeperry]

use ffdshow as a color reference, then compare against your other players...they should output the SAME EXACT colors.

might need to remux to .mp4 or .ts as I'm not sure PDVD or TMT open MKV..I think you can just rename to .avi and PDVD would open it

[THX-UltraII]

When I play a BD folder (CERTIFICATE/BDMV) with MPC-HC I CAN select subtitles (with Haali Media Splitter filter) but they do not show up. With TMT3 it works fine so the subs ARE there.

What could be wrong?

I use latest MPC-HC build with EVR custom, latest directX, FFdshow video decoder RGB32HQ output, ATI 4350 with 9.10 driver

[THX-UltraII]

any words on a release date of Haali Media Splitter 2.0?

[leeperry]

it's being betatested as we speak ;)

[tmbt]

Hi guys,
talking about math. Haali render is better in terms of quality than custom evr ?
From what i can understand reading this forum i can obtain better quality using MadVr. But i got some problems using that render so i would to know if i should use custom evr or haali render.
Other question : what's new the haali 2.0 ?
Thx

[chuuey]

well from what i saw on the forums, a bug with 24hz output and CoreAVC is no longer present, can't wait :)

[Klaus_1250]

it's being betatested as we speak ;)
Do you have a download link? Latest beta I could find is quite old.

[Keiyakusha]

There is no any new public betas. Final version of haali's tools should be released around this week...

[clsid]

It's a private beta test.

I can confirm that TrueHD is working with yesterdays beta.

[STaRGaZeR]

:cool:

[THX-UltraII]

any thoughts if Haali Splitter will be released early this week?

[BetaBoy]

It will be released with or slightly before CoreAVC 2.0.

[THX-UltraII]

thxz!

[Faile]

It will be released with or slightly before CoreAVC 2.0 this week.

Week's quickly coming to an end :p
But seriously, is it delayed ? Been waiting for a new version of Haali for 2 years now so I am a bit anxious :)

[73ChargerFan]

//|\\
\\|//

[foxyshadis]

All posts contributing nothing but harping on release dates or missed promises from this point on will be struck with rule 12 and/or rule 16. Core is eternally over-optimistic, but this thread is getting far too spammed up with curious and angry people, like the CoreAVC thread. Software is done when it's done.

I thought I'd already laid this out but I can't find the post, so no strikes yet.

[Faile]

All posts contributing nothing but harping on release dates or missed promises from this point on will be struck with rule 12 and/or rule 16. Core is eternally over-optimistic, but this thread is getting far too spammed up with curious and angry people, like the CoreAVC thread. Software is done when it's done.

I thought I'd already laid this out but I can't find the post, so no strikes yet.

Who has just edited his post and removed "this week" from it. Sorry for asking about something written by someone.
I am not familiar with Core and don't know that he is over optimistic, he seemed connected to Haali and the development of his splitter and he posted a timeframe of release.
If one is not allowed to ask about it when said timeframe is coming to an end then honestly...stuff your forum where the sun don't shine.

Look up the definition of "forum" sometime, you might learn stuff.

And yeah, go ahead and ban me to show me you are a big strong and mighty guy on the net, heh

[foxyshadis]

I'm sorry, you might wish to re-examine who and what this forum is for, get an idea of the decorum here, and reread the rules that you agreed to upon signing up. I wasn't passively "calling you out", just trying to keep the thread on track, but that was an incredibly childish response to a general request. There are better places to privately contact the people concerned. You're just pixels on a screen to me for now, I get no joy from doing a simple job. Struck (not banned) for rule 16.

[CruNcher]

@BetaBoy

Does one of the Fixes also include more compatible .mov parsing ?
i have the problem that this IMA ADPCM Audio stream is not reaching ffdshows audio decoder with Haalis Splitter but Gabest (MPC-HCs internal) Mplayer and VLC work fine :)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : ADPCM
Format settings, Firm : IMA
Codec ID : ima4
Duration : 2mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 352.8 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Resolution : 16 bits
Stream size : 5.33 MiB (1%)
Language : English

[leeperry]

you can find the official HMS thread here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=80762&page=24

[CruNcher]

Oops
thx leeperry, it was also reported already in 2005 :D
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=727918#post727918

[Amefurashi]

This is probably going to be an old question, but I was not able to find the answer myself...

Is it a known issue that using Haali renderer with ffdshow's x264 decoding in MPC HC (or TheKMPlayer) results in a forced downsampling of a 1080p clip? 720p plays just fine and the player shows the movie window's correct size (e.g. 1280x720), but 1080p are shown in a small window (about 960x400) and, let's say, I can't capture a snapshot in its native resolution.

What to do, my friends? :confused:

[73ChargerFan]

Amefurashi, it is a known issue, but not for the reason you think.
I've already said that a couple of times, but here it goes again: video size is reduced so the player window fits the screen. This is how I want it and I'm not going to change it. If you want parts of your video to go outside the screen and become invisible, then resize your player manually or use another renderer.

[leeperry]

oh yes, as long as you run in windowed mode, HR will shrink it indeed.

[Amefurashi]

Got it, thanks. Guess I'll hop on VRM9 or EVR when dealing with 1080p content (my desktop resolution is 1680x1050, not good enough).

:thanks:

[THX-UltraII]

any news if Haali will be released any time soon?

[fastplayer]

any news if Haali will be released any time soon?
Apparently, you conveniently "missed" this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1346046#post1346046) by foxyshadis, so I will quote it again here to spare you scrolling 10 posts up:
All posts contributing nothing but harping on release dates or missed promises from this point on will be struck with rule 12 and/or rule 16.

[THX-UltraII]

sorry, didn t see that.

[leeperry]

Haali has addressed all of these issues in the upcoming 2.0 version of the Haali Media Splitter.
this would indeed appear to be the case :eek:

I will run more tests with 23.976fps MKV files @48.000Hz w/ Reclock...but this used to drop frames randomly after 1H if you didn't catch the VSYNC properly(which took a lot of luck), but from what I've seen so far jitter on 23.976fps MKV files seems FAR more stable than ever before...prepare for unforeseen consequences http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/ayuluna.gif

[BetaBoy]

I am sure there are many issues yet to be fixed... but this is moving in the right direction... and I want to thank Haali for his continued contributions.

[leeperry]

now, if he could fix the slight errors in the BT601/709 conversion coeffs(I can provide the exact coeffs and test patterns), and implement this PS script to get proper colors: Color Correction with a HTPC - AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912720)

this would be beyond words! http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/paradise974.gif

[Keiyakusha]

By the way about PS3 scaler. I know It was disabled on some point of developing but is there any chances to see it again? Is it possible to get some speed improvements with it? If it doesn't works fine on all hardware, maybe its better to add some checkbox so it can be enabled/disabled by user?

[leeperry]

Don't set your hopes too high, the HR DLL hasn't been updated since January 2009 and HR is a dead project as far as I can see...the new HMS seems to have a more stable jitter on 23.976 MKV files w/ DTS, but AC3 is even worse than before.

Quite honestly, when you see all that mVR offers(it's dead smooth for me in 48Hz, far smoother and sharper than HR by a long shot, Kazuya can confirm)...there's really no more reason to use HR: its REC601/709 YUY2 coeffs are wrong, it works very poorly w/ Reclock, its scaler gives ghost lines on ATi cards, no CMS whatsoever, it cannot keep up w/ 60fps streams, etc etc...BetaBoy pays Haali to improve HMS, allowing CoreAVC to work on W7 and in BD structures..this is already fantastic! but find a backup plan if you were hoping for HR bug fixes :o

[Egh]

Don't set your hopes too high, the HR DLL hasn't been updated since January 2009 and HR is a dead project as far as I can see...

Quite honestly, when you see all that mVR offers(it's dead smooth for me in 48Hz, far smoother and sharper than HR by a long shot, Kazuya can confirm)...there's really no more reason to use HR: its REC601/709 YUY2 coeffs are wrong, it works very poorly w/ Reclock, its scaler gives ghost lines on ATi cards, no CMS whatsoever, it cannot keep up w/ 60fps streams, etc etc...

Superlatives there seems a bit subjective (i.e. it is better but not "far better")

OK, I'm on Nvidia here. Practically no problems with HR whatsoever. Besides, even though mVR is better, it is still:


closed source
very slow development
no subs



Well I did have hopes for mVR, but lol, it is still technically in beta stage and having just one build released per half a year means development is nearly stalled.

[Mark_A_W]

While I don't disagree with the other comments Egh..

Subs work in madVR with DirectVobSub (aka VSfilter).

[Keiyakusha]

Quite honestly, when you see all that mVR offers(it's dead smooth for me in 48Hz, far smoother and sharper than HR by a long shot, Kazuya can confirm)...there's really no more reason to use HR: its REC601/709 YUY2 coeffs are wrong, it works very poorly w/ Reclock, its scaler gives ghost lines on ATi cards, no CMS whatsoever, it cannot keep up w/ 60fps streams

Well, as for me... HR is exactly what I need.
mVR is too slow for me, I can't watch anything smoothly with it. And doesn't supports subtitles rendering.
Coeffs... I can live with that, I don't like/use reclock, I don't like/use ATI but anyway scaling is done by FFDshow, less than 1% of my streams is at 60 fps. So I don't want to believe that HR doesn't have any future...

[leeperry]

sure, if you don't care for proper colors or uber-smoothness, HR can fit the bill(there's other bugs in HR I forgot about I think..but it doesn't matter) :)

You can also get ghost lines on nvidia BTW(I have a GF9600), there's a bug in a PS script sum(1.0 when 0.98 should be expected).

I still rest my case that in 48Hz mVR is *FAR* smoother(Kazuya and other smoothness-OCD'ed ppl can concur) and much sharper...it's really amazing, all those movies I've watched w/ HR when they could have looked so much smoother/sharper in mVR :(

ah well, same for audio as I'm currently upgrading my set up(Burson Audio HA-160 headphones amplifier, etc)....all those records I have to listen all over again to hear what I've been missing, nasty upgraditis http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/zabrak.gif

both HR/mVR are closed source, and I hardly ever watch subbed movies...when I do, ffdshow does the trick nicely(subs are blurry but well, it does work)

and Kazuya is very fond of the upscaling algorithms built into mVR, maybe he'll chime in to tell us more about it.

[Keiyakusha]

The main thing, that you talking not about smoothness, but "super" smoothness. If the GPU is able to run mVR + stuff like Aero and there is still left some room - then mVR is the good choice. In other cases HR is the way to go. To be clear, I don't want to see HR vs mVR fight, I want to see HR as a good renderer with lower system requirements.

[Kazuya]

Well I don't try HR with Aero, but madVR is incredible !
My Z4 is changed into a VW60 killer projector !!! :p
HR looks so dusty in comparison...

And madVR isn't achieved ! Can't wait for the next release ! :D

[leeperry]

The main thing, that you talking not about smoothness, but "super" smoothness. If the GPU is able to run mVR + stuff like Aero and there is still left some room - then mVR is the good choice. In other cases HR is the way to go. To be clear, I don't want to see HR vs mVR fight, I want to see HR as a good renderer with lower system requirements.
Yes, mVR is FAR smoother than HR(w/ Reclock), and includes a full color management system...and I can't seem to be able to explain why, but the PQ is also much sharper, HR looks blurry(or "dusty" as Kazuya said) in comparison.

Anyway, I'm really not trolling here...I was simply telling you that there -most likely- won't be any change made to HR, as you were asking about the PS3 scaler being reenabled.

I don't use Aero, I'm XP resilient...I'm not willing to waste CPU/GPU cycles for a retarded GUI and zillions of useless background processes hogging my system.

Maybe you could try this freeware app? it's meant to temporarily close all the useless background stuff(and God knows there's a HELL lot of it on W7/Vista): Game Booster (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cowcotland.com%2Fnews%2F17431%2Frapide-test-du-logiciel-game-booster.html&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

[Egh]

Well, as for me... HR is exactly what I need.
mVR is too slow for me, I can't watch anything smoothly with it. And doesn't supports subtitles rendering.
Coeffs... I can live with that, I don't like/use reclock, I don't like/use ATI but anyway scaling is done by FFDshow, less than 1% of my streams is at 60 fps.

We have so much in common! :rolleyes: well practically all same for me, though I don't have any troubles with GPU power. However, to be honest, it is better to keep them on minimum power unless gaming, and that what I use even for 1080p videos.



While I don't disagree with the other comments Egh..

Subs work in madVR with DirectVobSub (aka VSfilter).

There's an ages old rule called Occam's razor. MPCHC has almost same code but renders it in a better quality, iirc. So why to use anything else if only video player I use is mpchc?

Well I don't try HR with Aero, but madVR is incredible !
My Z4 is changed into a VW60 killer projector !!! :p
HR looks so dusty in comparison...
And madVR isn't achieved ! Can't wait for the next release ! :D
Well officially HR is not archieved either. Unless I missed that somehow... Besides, not all viewers use projectors where difference is visible. Not even mentioning that most videos hardly justify even HD resolution (i.e. I mean alot of TV broadcast uses upscaled videos).

[leeperry]

mVR is not exactly a GPU hog on a rebadged 8800GS/384MB: http://thumbnails18.imagebam.com/5880/e2399458790831.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e2399458790831)

[Mark_A_W]

There's an ages old rule called Occam's razor. MPCHC has almost same code but renders it in a better quality, iirc. So why to use anything else if only video player I use is mpchc?

Well officially HR is not archieved either. Unless I missed that somehow... Besides, not all viewers use projectors where difference is visible. Not even mentioning that most videos hardly justify even HD resolution (i.e. I mean alot of TV broadcast uses upscaled videos).

Well, I'll take a better, smoother image over subtitle quality anyday.
There aren't that many movies with forced subtitles, and I only occasionally watch non-english films.

And I only watch Bluray, HD-DVD, or HDTV on my projector. TV is for the TV! I'm such a HD snob. Luckily, almost all my favourite films are available on HD now.

[leeperry]

well, my GPU-Z screenshot was on XP SP3...from what I've seen Aero is hogging GPU's, so maybe that's what they meant.

even on my 19" CRT, I can see that mVR is smoother(in 96.000Hz+Reclock).

[flanger216]

There's an ages old rule called Occam's razor. MPCHC has almost same code but renders it in a better quality, iirc. So why to use anything else if only video player I use is mpchc?

Err... Occam's razor is a logical dictate stating that the simplest solution to any given problem is most likely the correct one, in that sensitivity to pluralities and irrelevant nuance is a human failing and not a useful property to logical deduction. It argues for simplicity, but contrary to popular belief, it does not argue for reduction. In other words, it has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

You're faced with the following problem: you can get better sub rendering from MPC-HC's renderers, you can get better video quality from madVR, but you can't get both. Logical simplicity is irrelevant when faced with matters of preference, so it all depends on what you want. In fact, if you're goal is to get the best video quality possible, Occam's razor would actually advise in favor of madVR, because worrying about superfluous sub renderers is really just a distracting equivocation.

[Egh]

Err... Occam's razor is a logical dictate stating that the simplest solution to any given problem is most likely the correct one, in that sensitivity to pluralities and irrelevant nuance is a human failing and not a useful property to logical deduction. It argues for simplicity, but contrary to popular belief, it does not argue for reduction. In other words, it has nothing to do with what you're talking about.

You're faced with the following problem: you can get better sub rendering from MPC-HC's renderers, you can get better video quality from madVR, but you can't get both. Logical simplicity is irrelevant when faced with matters of preference, so it all depends on what you want. In fact, if you're goal is to get the best video quality possible, Occam's razor would actually advise in favor of madVR, because worrying about superfluous sub renderers is really just a distracting equivocation.

I disagree :p Besides, Occam's razor in layman's terms would be to not multiply entities beyond necessity. I already have MPCHC with subrenderer. If mVR doesn't support it, then it is on hold until it does.

As for smoothness -- HR smoothness is more than I need if I use my CRT @ 85Hz. I don't use projectors though and I don't have a need to do so. For non-movie sources, difference in quality doesn't even justify any change a priori.

And to sum up, real problem is that both renderers are bad, as they are underdeveloped closed source made by a one-programmer team.

How hard can it be to develop a video renderer? :P

[Mark_A_W]

Nothing will be smooth at 85hz.

[clsid]

Increasing the rendering resolution in DirectVobSub can help to increase sub quality.

[leeperry]

How hard can it be to develop a video renderer? :P
prolly always the same m$ bs? lot of undocumented stuff that you need to find out by yourself, and a poor original design that needs a lot of time/skills and imagination to fix?

Haali worked on VMR9, so he's prolly gained some knowledge "from the inside", but madshi went from scratch..see how far he went in just a couple of beta versions http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/images/smilies/headshot.gif

and yes, 85Hz is up to no good...try 89.910/96.000Hz

[Egh]

prolly always the same m$ bs? lot of undocumented stuff that you need to find out by yourself, and a poor original design that needs a lot of time/skills and imagination to fix?

Haali worked on VMR9, so he's prolly gained some knowledge "from the inside", but madshi went from scratch..see how far he went in just a couple of beta versions

Yop, and then all the development even in spite of most obvious interface bugs was suspended for 3-4 months. Things are simple -- no open source, no stability and predictability. What if a new update for let's say W7 is out, and both HR and mVR dont' work then? Waiting for months before such an issue is resolved ... That is why I'm inclined to say that *both* are bad :D

upd: btw Haali's website is apparently down today. That is exactly what I mean, actually...

[madshi]

And to sum up, real problem is that both renderers are bad, as they are underdeveloped closed source made by a one-programmer team.
You're free to use whatever renderer you want, but judging software based on whether it's closed or open source is just plain stupid. :rolleyes:

[BetaBoy]

You're free to use whatever renderer you want, but judging software based on whether it's closed or open source is just plain stupid. :rolleyes:

Agreed.

[leeperry]

no open source, no stability and predictability. What if a new update for let's say W7 is out, and both HR and mVR dont' work then?
name some open source VR..KMP is able to use plain D3D surfaces as VR:

http://thumbnails21.imagebam.com/5974/eb03ab59733487.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/eb03ab59733487)

but KMP isn't open-source either.

[Keiyakusha]

Yes, mVR is FAR smoother than HR(w/ Reclock), and includes a full color management system...and I can't seem to be able to explain why, but the PQ is also much sharper, HR looks blurry(or "dusty" as Kazuya said) in comparison.

Anyway, I'm really not trolling here...I was simply telling you that there -most likely- won't be any change made to HR, as you were asking about the PS3 scaler being reenabled.

I don't use Aero, I'm XP resilient...I'm not willing to waste CPU/GPU cycles for a retarded GUI and zillions of useless background processes hogging my system.

Maybe you could try this freeware app? it's meant to temporarily close all the useless background stuff(and God knows there's a HELL lot of it on W7/Vista): Game Booster (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cowcotland.com%2Fnews%2F17431%2Frapide-test-du-logiciel-game-booster.html&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
Sorry for really late response, I missed your post for some reason...
Game Booster is a nice software, but unlikely it can free some GPU resources. The processes that it terminates seems not related to GPU.
Unfortunately I can't test anything now. I just discovered that for some reason when madvr starts and/or ends its work everything hangs for a few minutes so I even can't move my mouse. Maybe I need to update it or something. I think this started to happen after drivers update. I'll check this later.
And aero... I can disable it when the player starts, I think this is no big deal. However with its vsync I have smoother result when using renderers other than madvr. By the way not sure about cycles, but using GPU-Z i can see that aero can eat up to 128mb video memory with just few windows open (no video, games or something).

And to sum up, real problem is that both renderers are bad, as they are underdeveloped closed source made by a one-programmer team.

Well... one programmer is not necessarily bad thing. And closed source... I think its also can be good, but yes only when its feature rich and bug free, which isn't the case here.

[namaiki]

HR looks blurry(or "dusty" as Kazuya said) in comparison.
Atifacts from sharpening with Bicubic resizer?

Is that with default settings for the Bicubic resizer or have you tried tweaking it?

I just discovered that for some reason when madvr starts and/or ends its work everything hangs for a few minutes so I even can't move my mouse.

Same for me.. (Geforce 9600M GT, Forceware 186.88)

At the start, when it's 'frozen', press the start key on your keyboard a few times(switches focus from media player to start menu and vice versa), and that will unfreeze it for me. :p

At the end, I use taskkill, and the RAM still appears to be taken back from the program.

[leeperry]

Artifacts from sharpening with Bicubic resizer?
we both used it in NN mode(1:1, scaling disabled)...actually it's dead obvious that mVR is sharper & smoother(using Reclock in 48/50.000Hz), HR and HMS suffer from jitter...the delivery time is not spot-on, it goes around the clock and the VSYNC fliptime.

even HMS makes mVR lose track after 45/60 mins(even in MPC), the internal KMP MKV splitter can play 2H movies w/o a glitch...Haali doesn't care for Reclock support, and it shows..luckily KMP's MKV splitter works like a charm(and also supports FLAC/subs/etc...)

well, a wild guess would be that HR seems to be doing some slight sample and hold...anyway it's not as sharp and looks blurry, maybe the reason is somewhere else, you can do so many things w/ PS scripts...

madshi discussed it here: technical question: sample-and-hold effect? - AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=802850)

basically DLP's don't seem to do any sample & hold...but tLCD's do, which gives an impression of smoother but it's actually blurrier(you can play around w/ the frame rate doublers in ffdshow to see what I mean)

I personally cannot stand tLCD pj's as all their cons are deal breakers for me(misconvergence/vertical banding/shading/etc), I've always been told about MDA(Motion Dithering Artifacts) on DLP...well, it's said to look like black "cell shading-like" outlines around fast moving objects, but I've never been able to see anything like that on my Mitsu HC910/1100/3100..but I think Mitsu is known to be one of the companies that handles DLP the best(Toshiba being pretty bad, their "HD2+ Mustang" chip pj's like the MT700 would suffer from terrible banding...the Mitsu HC1100 using the same chip is completely untouched). But I can also notice mVR's smoothness edge on my 19" CRT(and Kazuya too on his LCD monitor in 29.97fps@60Hz).

I also use LSF in ffdshow to sharpen up the motion blur, it looks so good :)

PS: it could also be due to the chroma being softer in mVR, which gives the impression of a sharper luma maybe?

[Mark_A_W]

Leeperry

Do you know if the KMP splitter is able to be used as an external filter?

I'd like to try it in Zoom Player.

[leeperry]

You'd need to extract it from the .exe...I tried several methods, but failed. And maybe it'd still be locked to KMP..maybe coz they hacked it from Gabest :p

[Mark_A_W]

I tried the MPC HC Gabest splitter but it didn't work well at all with mkvs.

[namaiki]

I tried the MPC HC Gabest splitter but it didn't work well at all with mkvs.

What specifically? I'm just curious because I've never really tried it..

[leeperry]

I tried the MPC HC Gabest splitter but it didn't work well at all with mkvs.
well, I was just kidding...but KMP is known to use stolen code from MPC, and they embedded the splitter within the exe so noone could look into it...maybe there's a good reason ;)

anyway, you're also a Reclock addict and tried both mVR/HR...what's your take on it? both are just as smooth to you in 96Hz on your three eyed monster?

[Mark_A_W]

What specifically? I'm just curious because I've never really tried it..

It won't connect at all.

I'm trying the MPC HC Gabest MPEG2 splitter/source and they just don't work at all with mkv files.


Maybe I'm using the wrong filters, but I also tried the MPEG4 splitter..no go either.

[Mercury_22]

It won't connect at all.

I'm trying the MPC HC Gabest MPEG2 splitter/source and they just don't work at all with mkv files.


Maybe I'm using the wrong filters, but I also tried the MPEG4 splitter..no go either.
And the name of the splitters you are trying to use didn't give you any clue about if you can or can't use them for mkv files ?
My suggestion is to try MatroskaSplitter for mkv files

[Mark_A_W]

And the name of the splitters you are trying to use didn't give you any clue about if you can or can't use them for mkv files ?
My suggestion is to try MatroskaSplitter for mkv files

Yes, but it's not always indicative.
For instance, you use the MPEG2 Splitter for .m2ts files.


But thank you, I will try that.

Edit: Yes, it works. The reason I didn't try it before was I didn't have it registered - I missed that one.

[Mercury_22]

Yes, but it's not always indicative.
For instance, you use the MPEG2 Splitter for .m2ts files.


But thank you, I will try that.

Edit: Yes, it works. The reason I didn't try it before was I didn't have it registered - I missed that one.

AFAIK the name of MPC-HC's standalone splitter it's MpegSplitter.ax not MPEG2 Splitter http://www.xvidvideo.ru/media-player-classic-home-cinema-x86-x64/media-player-classic-homecinema-x86-x64-svn-1410.html

[Mark_A_W]

Now you are just being picky.

[chuuey]

wasn't the 2.0 renderer supposed to be released with coreavc 2.0? What happened?

[Keiyakusha]

renderer? no. splitter - yes.
many peoples wanted it, but there was only hope. As you can see haali has no motivation even for fixing bugs in splitter. So the renderer seems to be completely forgotten.

[Blight]

A new version of Haali's is out as of the 19th:
http://haali.su/mkv/

I couldn't get TrueHD audio to play with it, not using FFDShow for decoding a BluRay TS file.

Here's the change list:
* New Features:
o Added a 64-bit version
o A shell extension was removed from the splitter. This will be available seprately at a later date.
o Added truehd and mlp support for Matroska files and transpor streams
* Fixed items:
o Fixed lpcm in transport streams support

[Keiyakusha]

Sure its out. But there is not a single change in the renderer since 29/03/2008

[chuuey]

Haali has addressed all of these issues in the upcoming 2.0 version of the Haali Media Splitter.

that's what i'm talking about, there i said about 24hz bugs ;)

[Egh]

Sure its out. But there is not a single change in the renderer since 29/03/2008

How do you know? :)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

How do you know? :)

No changes to the renderer are listed in the changelog on Haali's site. Also it was discussed in the CoreAVC thread.

[Keiyakusha]

Egh
Well, it will be good if there is changes, but its hard to believe since haali even didn't find the time to fix more important bugs in splitter...

[73ChargerFan]

Haali has a job. I wonder if he'd be willing to open source this, so others can work on it also.

[Egh]

Haali has a job. I wonder if he'd be willing to open source this, so others can work on it also.

Open-source Renderer is a Holy Grail apparently. So many years and still no solution? :))

I guess developers do not care for being famous... I'm quite sure there will be many early adopters of the open source renderer provided it is more or less stable :)

[madshi]

Open-source Renderer is a Holy Grail apparently. So many years and still no solution? :))
There is a Microsoft demo video renderer, which is open source. If you are simple enough to believe that being open source automatically makes a renderer mutate into "Holy Grail", then why don't you compile and use that one? Obviously it must be Holy Grail because it's open source!? :rolleyes:

I guess developers do not care for being famous...
Where is Gabest's fame for developing MPC? Where is Beliyaal's fame for developing the MPC HC EVR Custom implementation? Where is albain's fame for making HD audio bitstreaming work? Where is Casimir666's fame for implementing DXVA support? I don't think any normal end user knows any of the mentioned developers. Do *you* know who developed the libav TrueHD decoder? Maybe/probably these devs (who all did a great job) didn't aim for being famous, so no big problem. But believing that open sourceing your work makes you famous is rather "funny" IMHO.

Now compare that to Haali. His work is closed source, yet far more end users know his name compared to Gabest, Beliyaal, albain or Casimir666. So if you turn on your brain, you might come to the (right) conclusion that open sourceing your work is a good idea only if you do NOT aim to be famous.

I'm quite sure there will be many early adopters of the open source renderer provided it is more or less stable :)
By far most users don't really care at all about whether a software is open source or closed source. What difference does it make to them? They're not developers! They have no use for the source code. End users only care about two things: (1) Is it free or not? And (2) is it working well or not?

[avivahl]

Now compare that to Haali. His work is closed source, yet far more end users know his name compared to Gabest, Beliyaal, albain or Casimir666.Well, only because it's called "Haali Media Splitter". I can assure you that if Gabest would have called his player "Gabest Media Player" (or "GaBEST" hehe), he would have been more well known.

So if you turn on your brain, you might come to the (right) conclusion that open sourceing your work is a good idea only if you do NOT aim to be famous.Just as equally wrong logic. :P

[leeperry]

open source usually means lotsa ppl(both pro and newbies) working on the same broken piece of code, and at some point it'll be so messy that noone will be able to fix it anymore..as long as it works and its coder didn't abandon the project(like when ogo sold the Reclock source to Slysoft, who kept it in a drawer for several years), who gives a damn whether it's open source..I think you guys are troll feeding, let Egh think what he wants.

Casimir666 is very famous on french A/V forums, I dunno if he ever got laid thanks to his uber coding skills...but we can only hope :)

[madshi]

open source usually means lotsa ppl(both pro and newbies) working on the same broken piece of code, and at some point it'll be so messy that noone will be able to fix it anymore..
Probably some open source projects are that way, but there are certainly many good open source projects out there, too. IMHO we should stop doing politics. We should not judge software based on whether it's closed or open source. We should judge software based on its quality alone.

Anyway, this is my last comment on open vs. closed in this thread...

[foxyshadis]

Moved all of the posts about MPC-HC to the MPC-HC thread. Also all the talk about open source and fame/notoriety would be better discussed in its own thread.

[THX-UltraII]

Have a problem with Haali Media Splitter:

Haali seems to have the problem that there is only one audiostream possible when playing a .m2ts to choose in I ve noticed that this is always the audio commentary. Is there a way to fix this? Are you guys also you the MPC-HC internal MPEG/TS splitter instead of the Haali splitter?

[leeperry]

Have a problem with Haali Media Splitter
you can find the official HMS thread here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=80762&page=24

[Frank K Abbott]

I don't quite understand how "Luma Levels" exactly functions in Haali Renderer. My ffdshow is set for RGB32, TV input levels, Computer output levels and my CoreAVC is set to Auto Detect, Auto Detect. Haali Renderer is set to TV Levels. I'm using this on a computer screen. I cannot understand if the Luma Levels is for video input or video output in the renderer and how it functions if ffdshow is already converting levels from TV to Computer.

[Keiyakusha]

Frank K Abbott
Don't really understand how your filter chain looks like. You have CoreAVC and FFDshow both at the same time?

Anyway levels is only for YUV->RGB conversion. If Haali takes RGB as input, this option makes no difference. If it takes YUY2, then by setting TV levels you saying that your source have TV levels (which is DVD, BD, TV captures...), so Haali's output will be PC. And by setting PC levels you saying that your source is PC (which normally you shouldn't) and there will be no conversion.

[Frank K Abbott]

Frank K Abbott
Don't really understand how your filter chain looks like. You have CoreAVC and FFDshow both at the same time?

Anyway levels is only for YUV->RGB conversion. If Haali takes RGB as input, this option makes no difference. If it takes YUY2, then by setting TV levels you saying that your source have TV levels (which is DVD, BD, TV captures...), so Haali's output will be PC. And by setting PC levels you saying that your source is PC (which normally you shouldn't) and there will be no conversion.

CoreAVC runs for all H.264/AVC material and ffdshow runs for nearly everything else. So is it wise to set CoreAVC to output to RGB32 as well?

[Keiyakusha]

CoreAVC runs for all H.264/AVC material and ffdshow runs for nearly everything else. So is it wise to set CoreAVC to output to RGB32 as well?

Ahh i see.
About CoreAVC... thats up to you but i guess yes. Because otherwise your source will be converted to YUY2 before it gets to the renderer which is probably worse. However you should check if CoreAVC applies TV->PC conversion for RGB if both options set to Auto (i never tried). If no, you need to force that.

[Frank K Abbott]

ok so I set CoreAVC to RGB32 and I confirmed it is outputting that by the OSD in Haali Renderer. I also forced the input as TV and output as PC because to tell you the truth even I don't know what it does with Auto Detect. So basically with RGB32 going to Haali the Luma Level options are basically non-existant and Haali plays whatever it gets from CoreAVC or ffdshow? Also I have been wondering but why don't dvds and bds get stored as RGB32? And why is it not the default to output as RGB32 in ffdshow or CoreAVC? Are there other benefits with YUV or YUY2?

[Keiyakusha]

So basically with RGB32 going to Haali the Luma Level options are basically non-existant and Haali plays whatever it gets from CoreAVC or ffdshow?
Yep.

Also I have been wondering but why don't dvds and bds get stored as RGB32?
Because it takes waaaay more space and harder to compress.

And why is it not the default to output as RGB32 in ffdshow or CoreAVC? Are there other benefits with YUV or YUY2?
Well there are different scenarios, this is offtop here but having non-rgb input to the renderer is not bad. In some cases even better than RGB. Its just haali's downside (imho) that it wants YUY2 when all content out there most likely YV12.

[Frank K Abbott]

Ah, I see. btw I was just wondering if the renderer might get some future updates since it is a bit old though still one of the best. Have you heard anything about it?

[leeperry]

having non-rgb input to the renderer is not bad. In some cases even better than RGB. Its just haali's downside (imho) that it wants YUY2 when all content out there most likely YV12.
if you check the beginning of this thread, Haali made it clear that YV12>YUY2 conversion was very light and essentially lossless....the major issue w/ feeding YUY2 to HR is that its RGB conversion BT.601/709 coeffs are way off..so you get bogus colors duh. there's also of LOT of other open issues in HR(just like in HMS :o)

RGB32HQ in ffdshow is perfect, but it's a CPU hog.
I was just wondering if the renderer might get some future updates
it hasn't been updated for the past 2 years or so and last time I spoke to Haali he said that HR was "on hold", so don't count on it.

mVR came to overcome its drawbacks, but it hasn't been updated in +7 months either: madVR - high quality video renderer (GPU assisted) - Doom9's Forum (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228)

[Keiyakusha]

leeperry
Thats why I put "imho" there. Light or no, I don't like conversions like that when they can be avoided. Personally I'm using ffdshow as postprocessor so its always possible to have nice RGB even with CoreAVC. :rolleyes:

[leeperry]

YV12>YUY2 won't make any visible difference...but HR's bogus 601/709 coeffs very much will...ah well, HR is history anyway.

[Frank K Abbott]

I simply love ffdshow's post processing power. RGB32HQ conversion of course and most of the time I run a 2-3 line AviSynth script along with it too. Works well. And the result of converting to RGB32 in CoreAVC is just...Wow. Much better than HR doing the conversion. Colors look a bit better as well as a bit of the lighting.

[leeperry]

outputting RGB32 from CoreAVC and using Avisynth scripting in ffdshow on top will lead to many useless lossy conversions...not sure that's what you're saying, though ;)

[Frank K Abbott]

outputting RGB32 from CoreAVC and using Avisynth scripting in ffdshow on top will lead to many useless lossy conversions...not sure that's what you're saying, though ;)

CoreAVC and ffdshow are being used for two completely different scenarios. CoreAVC is for mpeg-4/avc/h.264 type material and ffdshow is for the rest. I only have one decoder working on one type of file at a time thanks to the brilliance of filter merits :D

[~Revolution~]

Is there a way to "hack" the 256MB limit since I want to fully utilize the 1 GB gddr3 mem I have on my gfx card.

[leeperry]

don't think so, and it would be a jitter party anyway..Casimir already made it clear that there isn't much point caching more than 4/5 frames

[~Revolution~]

Is there any hope of some bug fixes in Haali Renderer since it already is near perfect just a few more fixes maybe?

[LegendaryPOO]

Can someone explain how the scaler works in Haali? Or any renderer for the fact.
I am playing MPC-HC on my Core2 Duo with 8500gt on 1080p output. I thought I was having problem with aliasing, lots of edge problems with jaggies. WMP had no issue with any 1080p content, looked smooth as.
Checking the OSD with Haali, it shows my 1080p content scaled to 899x506. What is this meaning? My movies are being scaled back to less than half of the original image?
I cannot find any other information on this in Google, or maybe I dont know what im supposed to be looking for. Is thi scaling making my images look all awful? It makes it look bad in space scenes where the stars are just flickering. Is it Haali itself?

[namaiki]

What is the resolution of your screen? Are you playing in full-screen?

[LegendaryPOO]

Yes I am. When I go to windowed mode, it says the display is even less (which I assume is correct by seeing the window size). I do not know if there is a way in any other renderer to see if the image is being scaled differently.
I played the same file on my laptop, and while the laptop is lower res, it said was displaying correctly.
I just have that sinking feeling that I have not been watching movies the way they should be, half the res of normal.

[namaiki]

Could you please post a screenshot? (do not resize the image) Put it on imageshack or other.

[LegendaryPOO]

http://img510.imageshack.us/i/ghostpc.jpg/

It shows with the scaler 1920x1080 -> 899x375.

[namaiki]

What media player is that in?

If you're not using Media Player Classic Homecinema, you should be!

[LegendaryPOO]

Yep, 1.3.1774.0
Any ideas what is going on? Im guessing its not supposed to happen.

[namaiki]

No idea what's happening. Try a newer MPC-HC and while you're at it, try default settings.

By the way, if you've got a decent video card, I would recommend you use Overlay.

edit: are you using HDMI and resizing the thing to fit your TV?

[dansrfe]

If you recall, Haali himself mentioned that he disliked having the video resolution and the screen resolution being the same or nearly the same. Due to this if any video being attempted to be played had a resolution within a certain amount of the screens resolution. The video would temporarily be shown at half the resolution in order to not have such an overwhelming effect the minute the video was opened. If after that the user wants to view the full resolution or something larger than half the resolution he/she can resize it to their liking or make it full screen to display the full resolution and in the case of 1080p video on a 1080p screen, without any scaler being applied.

[namaiki]

Yes, but '899x375' is not half of any standard resolution.

Also, the OSD looks blurry which it generally looks very sharp.

[leeperry]

did you try to reset MPC? what did you set in /View/Video Frame/? "touch window from inside"? it's most likely your player not instructing HR properly.

[dansrfe]

http://img510.imageshack.us/i/ghostpc.jpg/

It shows with the scaler 1920x1080 -> 899x375.

Oh sorry about that. Didn't see this picture. Yeah this is definitely not how its supposed to be working. As leeperry pointed out I think its something to do with the video frame settings in MPC.

[rahzel]

I'm using Haali Renderer with MPC HC and ReClock which ReClock's Vsync disabled. I don't see any tearing, but when I pause and resume, sometimes I see a tearing line that doesn't go away until I pause and resume again. It's either near the bottom or in the bottom half of the screen.

I'm using a Radeon 5450 connected to my LCD TV via HDMI. I have Windows 7 set to 23Hz and my TV supports 24Hz native mode. If relevant at all, I have ATI CCC vsync set to off unless the application asks for it.

edit: I've just discovered that Aero/Desktop composition can affect tearing/vsync. I've recently disabled Aero because it was causing me problems with DXVA, but I'm no longer using DXVA so I've re-enabled Aero. Now I don't see tearing in EVR or Haali. How does Aero affect tearing/vsync?

[adam777]

BTW, a new version of Halli Media splitter was released a few days ago...

[dansrfe]

Any chance of seeing a new and improved version of Haali Renderer?

[B.F.]

Not a chance, I think.
Too bad every freeware hardware renderer project remain half finished.

[Nitrius]

Just wondering, what do you gain by using Haali splitter with MPC HC? And how do you configure it to work with MPC HC?

[namaiki]

Just wondering, what do you gain by using Haali splitter with MPC HC? And how do you configure it to work with MPC HC?

For one, you get support for linked segments in MKV. Not sure about anything else.

'Configure it' by installing it.

[Barlow]

And make sure the MPC mkv splitter is disabled.

Haali's splitter has more advantages though, like better support for multiple audio streams (sometimes not selectable with MPC's splitter) and language/subtitle priorities.

[Malow]

anyone tried haali renderer with nvidia forceware v257.21?

i got tearing and jerky playback. tried various 3D settings (buffer, v-sync, etc) and nothing worked.

back to v197.77, everything works perfect.

using MPC-HC with 9800GT

[laserfan]

back to v197.77, everything works perfect.Izzat right? I can find only that the last official release was 197.45, and the last 197 beta was .57.

[dansrfe]

is Haali Renderer open-source by any chance? If so I think this project needs to be restarted and the renderer definitely needs some bug fixes and improvements.

[73ChargerFan]

is Haali Renderer open-source by any chance?

No it isn't.

[dansrfe]

Dear Haali,

If you are still out there and visit doom9, can you please make your renderer open source for the benefit of videokind.

Thanks :)

[Keiyakusha]

dansrfe
Believe it or not, it was asked so many times so now we can say that there is no hope.

[Malow]

Izzat right? I can find only that the last official release was 197.45, and the last 197 beta was .57.

http://downloads.guru3d.com/Forceware-197.77-Win-XP-32-bit-WHQL-download-2554.html

found here. was the latest ive found before 2xx

[dansrfe]

Can someone at least make a patch or bugfix for the Macrovision error when playing DVD's in Win 7? That's the only problem I have. Everything else works great for me with Haali Renderer.

[leeperry]

new build of the HMS package available: http://haali.su/mkv/
14/08/2010
Fixed items:
Fixed aspect ratio processing in certain Matroska files, which caused errors on open

[dansrfe]

Bugfix for the Macrovision error when playing DVD's in Win 7! :(

[oddball]

I've noticed when Haali is used as splitter instead of internal MPC-HC's splitter I get more dropped frames by scrolling up and down a webpage during playback. Any idea why? This is worse in combination with CoreAVC than DXVA although DXVA does it as well. Just not as badly. Not that you should be doing anything other than watching the video of course :)

[LigH]

Just noticed:

While an OpenGL application runs, the Haali Renderer silently fails and simply shows blackness. VRM9 Renderless at least reports a problem:

---------------------------
Error creating DX9 allocation presenter
---------------------------
CreateDevice failed

D3DERR_OUTOFVIDEOMEMORY
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

[JanWillem32]

MPC-HC's VMR-9 (renderless), EVR CP and EVR Sync have a few error messages built-in. I do hope a few more can be added soon, as a lot of items can still fail silently.

[mzso]

Hi!
How is this renderer supposed to work? Because anytime I tried it all it did for scaling was magnify pixels into blocks, which is totally hideous. But why doesn't it work? All the other renderers are functioning.

[mzso]

Haali renderer looks like this. With huge blocks. Can anyone at least give a hint what could cause it to show such broken rendering?
http://thumbnails37.imagebam.com/14487/cef530144860452.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/cef530144860452)

[Thunderbolt8]

somethings cleary wrong there (dont ask me what it is though), thats not the normal image quality. maybe others can help if you post your (player) configuration

[mzso]

somethings cleary wrong there (dont ask me what it is though), thats not the normal image quality. maybe others can help if you post your (player) configuration

So far it seems player independent. Looks like that with MPC-HC, kmplayer, potplayer. Also changing the renderers settings do nothing to help the issue

[namaiki]

Is Haali Renderer loading in those situations? Check the Play-> Filters menu (in MPC-HC).

[mzso]

Is Haali Renderer loading in those situations? Check the Play-> Filters menu (in MPC-HC).

Yeah. It alway loads, like this.

[ForceX]

Funny. Turn on Haali's OSD and post a screenshot. Also, try changing the Sharpness slider, see if that has an effect on the picture.

[mzso]

Funny. Turn on Haali's OSD and post a screenshot. Also, try changing the Sharpness slider, see if that has an effect on the picture.

Here's one.
http://thumbnails56.imagebam.com/14537/7f8f1f145362212.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/7f8f1f145362212)
I didn't notice any change when I moved the slider.

[namaiki]

What else is being loaded? Any chance that there is any other filter that might be doing resizing like DirectVobSub's double resolution option? (though it is already weird if the sharpness setting in Haali Renderer isn't working)

[mzso]

What else is being loaded? Any chance that there is any other filter that might be doing resizing like DirectVobSub's double resolution option? (though it is already weird if the sharpness setting in Haali Renderer isn't working)

Nothing of the sort... I'm clueless.

[Mark_A_W]

Why don't you guys try madVR instead of Haali Renderer?

I replaced HR as soon as madVR was released, with no regrets at all.

[mzso]

Why don't you guys try madVR instead of Haali Renderer?

I replaced HR as soon as madVR was released, with no regrets at all.

Because its too heavy for all videos. Plus it tends to cause hangs.

[blaster00]

Haali renderer looks like this. With huge blocks. Can anyone at least give a hint what could cause it to show such broken rendering?
http://thumbnails37.imagebam.com/14487/cef530144860452.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/cef530144860452)

I got the same quality with my ATI mobile HD3470 card. But it works fine with my Intel buildin card. I am using a thinkpad laptop with switchable display card. And I kept all softwares and drivers up to date.

[blaster00]

Because its too heavy for all videos. Plus it tends to cause hangs.

Because the author refused to make a x64 build.

[Mark_A_W]

Because its too heavy for all videos. Plus it tends to cause hangs.

Get a proper PC. It doesn't hang for me - v0.73 is awesome.

Because the author refused to make a x64 build.

x64 is completely pointless for video playback. No video playback application should ever need more that 2GB of ram.

I run exclusively 32 bit video filters on a 64 bit PC, there is no problem.

[leeperry]

Haali renderer looks like this. With huge blocks. Can anyone at least give a hint what could cause it to show such broken rendering?
http://thumbnails37.imagebam.com/14487/cef530144860452.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/cef530144860452)
IIRC, there's an option that requires a reboot in Rivatuner that will fix this problem on ATi hardware...something to do w/ PS support IIRC. Read the last pages of this thread, it was discussed here I think.

Make sure not to use HR in YUY2 as its BT.601/709 coeffs are borked...you're not getting the right colors.

[Hera]

64-bit CPUs have twice the amount of registers - which means less need to access L1/2/3 cache which is slower.

[fastplayer]

64-bit CPUs have twice the amount of registers - which means less need to access L1/2/3 cache which is slower.
...and pointers are - surprise, surprise - twice as big as in 32-bit...

By the way, what is the point of this thread? There hasn't been one HR-related fix/update in HMS for years which means it's practically dead and anybody using it, is just looking for trouble. Why?

[Hera]

...and pointers are - surprise, surprise - twice as big as in 32-bit...

By the way, what is the point of this thread? There hasn't been one HR-related fix/update in HMS for years which means it's practically dead and anybody using it, is just looking for trouble. Why?

EVR hasn't caught up yet.
EX: EVR drops audio when it cannot catch up, Haali doesn't. (Just frame-skipping doesn't interfere with the experience as much)

[mzso]

Get a proper PC. It doesn't hang for me - v0.73 is awesome.



x64 is completely pointless for video playback. No video playback application should ever need more that 2GB of ram.

I run exclusively 32 bit video filters on a 64 bit PC, there is no problem.
I have a proper PC.
IIRC, there's an option that requires a reboot in Rivatuner that will fix this problem on ATi hardware...something to do w/ PS support IIRC. Read the last pages of this thread, it was discussed here I think.

Make sure not to use HR in YUY2 as its BT.601/709 coeffs are borked...you're not getting the right colors.
Thanks for the tip. I'll try check it out.
I got the same quality with my ATI mobile HD3470 card. But it works fine with my Intel buildin card. I am using a thinkpad laptop with switchable display card. And I kept all softwares and drivers up to date.
Kind of suspected it might turn out to be a video card issue...

[BetaBoy]

Contrast to Fastplayer's statement, HMS has never been more popular or is distributed more then it is right now.

In fact we have been working on it over the past few months and plan a first release with CoreAVC 3.0 and for CoreMVC 3D. This new version will not address all the issues, but it will start the ball rolling again to work on it as reports come in.

[Mark_A_W]

The Splitter or the Renderer? I used both for years and years.

But the Renderer has never played smooth for HD video - not completely. madVR is as smooth as silk.

And the splitter doesn't label the audio streams on Bluray - makes it impossible to use. LAVSplitter does everything, very, very well.

[Octo-puss]

and plan a first release with CoreAVC 3.0
LOL!!!!!
So in a few years?

[fastplayer]

Contrast to Fastplayer's statement, HMS has never been more popular or is distributed more then it is right now.
Just to clarify: I was talking about the included renderer, not the splitter package in general.

[clsid]

I would be nice to see a public bug tracker for Haali and CoreCodec products. With active feedback from a developer. Because currently there is no central place to report bugs, or view known bugs, the communication sucks, feedback takes way too long if any at all, and it takes ages for bugs to be fixed or even acknowledged.

[blaster00]

IIRC, there's an option that requires a reboot in Rivatuner that will fix this problem on ATi hardware...something to do w/ PS support IIRC. Read the last pages of this thread, it was discussed here I think.

Make sure not to use HR in YUY2 as its BT.601/709 coeffs are borked...you're not getting the right colors.

Didn't see any difference between RGB32 and YUY2. Is it just me or HR does it ok now?

[leeperry]

Didn't see any difference between RGB32 and YUY2. Is it just me or HR does it ok now?
it does not AFAIK, try this: rec709.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/?sfd13vqrgn7vh6i)

[blaster00]

it does not AFAIK, try this: rec709.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/?sfd13vqrgn7vh6i)

You are right, there are some difference.But RGB32 and YUY2@BT.601 are same, YUY2@BT.709 and YUY2@auto are same. And I think RGB32 is a little wired... Which one is right?
I am a little confused. The clip is in BT.709, right? So if HR is working fine, set YUY2 in coreave and BT.709 or auto in HR are ok; set RGB32 in coreavc will also be ok. If HR is wrong, while, RGB32 should be right.
I am changing color space from coreavc, because I do not have ffdshow installed.

RGB32
http://thumbnails56.imagebam.com/14573/386af8145724809.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/386af8145724809)
YUY2 601
http://thumbnails48.imagebam.com/14573/d1de3b145724815.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/d1de3b145724815)
YUY2 709
http://thumbnails37.imagebam.com/14573/4db73c145724823.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/4db73c145724823)
YUY2 auto
http://thumbnails55.imagebam.com/14573/3ed0c8145724827.jpg (http://www.imagebam.com/image/3ed0c8145724827)

[Gaius]

How does one install Haali Renderer alone while NOT installing Haali Splitter?

MadVR is fine for my desktop but its too much for my laptop and I wish to use Haali Renderer but keep LAV for media splitting of MKV files.

[Qaq]

DSH Friendly Name Haali Video Renderer
REG Driver File ....\Haali\MatroskaSplitter\dxr.dll

[mzso]

How does one install Haali Renderer alone while NOT installing Haali Splitter?

MadVR is fine for my desktop but its too much for my laptop and I wish to use Haali Renderer but keep LAV for media splitting of MKV files.

If you install Haali splitter doesn't mean you have to use it too.

[Midzuki]

How does one install Haali Renderer alone while NOT installing Haali Splitter?

Unpack the installer, extract dxr.dll, then run

regsvr32 "Path-To\dxr.dll"

[Gaius]

Unpack the installer, extract dxr.dll, then run

regvr32 "Path-To\dxr.dll"
Thank you.