GUIDE: Stereo to 5-Channel Surround

[desertrat]

Originally posted by PeterC
I also tested Desertrat's V2 and 3, but is the Besweet
commandline output the usual one for this? this confused me.
Surely I did something wrong since both output a file with
..well one surround was like a phantom effect - very very quiet
, the other surround was loud as the front. Rest were normal
sounding. Might this have something to do with also my program
not having a recognizable 5.01 to WXYZ_O plugin . The bidule still didn't recognize it after installing and I chose to replace it from the list (I have it installed), and I tested each of the three settings and always got the same oddly quiet rear.

What am I doing wrong :S ?

[/B]

Sorry to take so long getting back to you on your question concerning the bidules I posted. First of all I would like to comment that you can forget V3, after additional testing and modification I still haven't got it to work to my satisfaction.

Now back to the other question....if your progam doesn't recognize the 5.01 to WXYZ_O plugin, you will not the proper result, since the majority of the imformation comes from that side of the chain. And yes the besweet command line is the usual one. I would suggest testing the ambi_1.5.bidule first. If you get this one working... mine should work as well.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,
desertrat

[puzio]

Hello Kempfand
Please help me.
I use Voxengo Pristine Space convolver. But Voxengo Pristine Space convolver has only 2 in pins and 2 out pins. So I don't know how I can convolve strereo file with W,X,Y impulses at one time ( I need 6 out pins!!!!!!!!!).
Thank You.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by puzio
Hello Kempfand
Please help me.
I use Voxengo Pristine Space convolver. But Voxengo Pristine Space convolver has only 2 in pins and 2 out pins. So I don't know how I can convolve strereo file with W,X,Y impulses at one time ( I need 6 out pins!!!!!!!!!).
Thank You.

Above the quality tab (left bottom), you can set the channels ....

eoH

[puzio]

Thank You EoH
I did. I enable 8 channel convolution but on the bidule's screen there are only 2 out pins!!!!

Thanks.

[kempfand]

But Voxengo Pristine Space convolver has only 2 in pins and 2 out pins In Pristine Space, use the comfiguration settings to set for 2 ins / 4 outs (or whatever you need). You have to click on the "?" on the upper-right part of the VST-screen.

Just in case, there is also a manual which describes this :p

As for the settings, you can check the picture on Farina's public server: http://www.ramsete.com/Public/Voxengo-Bformat/AudioMulch_Image.jpg

Cheers,
Andreas

[Eye of Horus]

Kempfand and me developed a new bidule based on the old Kpex method.
The results (especially on synths music are amazing !)

You need of course Bidule from Plogue and the HNM filter which can be found on Daphy's site.

The new bidule can be downloaded from :
http://www.app.demon.nl/SAD5.1inBidule.rar

It uses freeware only !!

Please give it a try and share your thoughts !!

kind regards,

Eye of Horus

[Eye of Horus]

Daphy,

Can you download it and put it on your server too ?

Thanks !!

EoH

[daphy]

@EoH

done :D

[Eye of Horus]

Hi,

thanks !!!

2 remarks :

a. It was a co-production of Kempfand AND EoH ! (credits should go , where credits should go ;) )
b. It is not an Ambisonics plugin !! It's a total different method, nothing to do with Ambisonics or Ambiophonics !! (You've put it in the Ambisonics dir.....)

The bidule is actually based on this method :
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57179
which we improved .

kind regards,

Eye of Horus

[daphy]

2 remarks :

a. It was a co-production of Kempfand AND EoH ! (credits should go , where credits should go )
b. It is not an Ambisonics plugin !! It's a total different method, nothing to do with Ambisonics or Ambiophonics !! (You've put it in the Ambisonics dir...

sorry, my mistake ;)

corrected!

[Tantulus]

Well Andreas, I managed to rewire my speakers so that I can place them at a 10 degree angle. The results were incredible. I tested it agaist the other methods using CD-RWs and I feel this method is the best for orchestral music. Congratulations on work well done. Also thanks again for all the others who have worked hard to create bidules for surround sound.

Regards,
Scott

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Tantulus
Well Andreas, I managed to rewire my speakers so that I can place them at a 10 degree angle. The results were incredible. I tested it agaist the other methods using CD-RWs and I feel this method is the best for orchestral music. Congratulations on work well done. Also thanks again for all the others who have worked hard to create bidules for surround sound.

Regards,
Scott

Please try our new bidule too :D
Perhaps we can surprise you again !

EoH

[Tantulus]

I actually tested the new bidule and compared it to the ambiphonics using Brian Eno's Music for Movies CD. I found the surround was impressive but it didn't have the breadth and ambience that the ambiphonics had. When I get around to it I'll compare some of my rock CD's. Currently I'm testing some other impluse responses in SIR.

I do have a request. I find the bidule rather complex and I would like to take you up on experimenting with it. At some point could you expain some of the components, such as audio matrix and the 500.0000 module (or provide me with a link). I was thinking of substituting the pristine convolver but I think that I'm getting enough sense of ambience for my ears.

Regards,
Scott

[kempfand]

Tantulus: I am glad you had good success with the Stereo Dipole. As you say correctly: "results can be incredible".

In fact, I would expect it to work very very well with orchestral music you use, as this type of music often already contains "wet" information (i.e. reverb from the recording space, ambience etc). All you then can do is to give it a better left-right localization of instruments, and that's exactly what the Stereo Dipole does.

In case you haven't already done so, I also recommend you download the test-tracks from Virtual Acoustics Project @ ISVR (http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/VAP/), burn them on CDR, and listen on your STereo Dipole. There are the 6 Stereo Dipole wave files in the Download section (http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/VAP/html/download.html).

Cheers,

Andreas

[Tantulus]

Well Andreas, I took your suggestion and downloaded the tracks fromVirtual Acoustics Project@ISVR (http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/VAP/) It made me really appreciate the stereo dipole. Incidentaly, I also found out that my speakers were out of phase when I first listened to the tracks and I couldn't hear the effect. Looks like I'll have to do my bidule comparisons all over again.

Do you think it would be possible to produce a stereo dipole for the surround speakers or would that not be an advantage?

Thanks again

Scott :cool:

[Eye of Horus]

Hi all,

A simple guide for our new Bidule is on this page :

http://www.dtsac3forum.digitalzones.com/SAD51Bidule.htm

kind regards,

EoH

[SallyDog]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Hi all,

A simple guide for our new Bidule is on this page :



@ EoH and Kempfand

Thanks for the guide. While I'm still most satisfied with the standard ambisonic bidule, your new one gave excellent results.

@EoH
On a side note, are the results of your testing of different encoding methods as performed in alt.bin.... still available? Could you (will you) post the poll results in this thread so everyone can see them?

Thanks alot guys, and keep up the good work.

Regards,

SallyDog

[Shayne]

@EoH

Thank you for your continued great work

Tried the new method on some APP and i have to say I am too still happy with page 1 plus .1

Peace

[Eye of Horus]

Hi all,

Sometimes the most simple solution is the most effective :-)

Thanks to Alastor (also member here) who made the soltion to the large file problem.

You can download the new Bidule here :

http://www.app.demon.nl/SAD51inBidulemod.rar

grtz,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Hi all,

Sometimes the most simple solution is the most effective :-)

Thanks to Alastor (also member here) who made the soltion to the large file problem.

You can download the new Bidule here :

http://www.app.demon.nl/SAD51inBidulemod.rar

grtz,

EoH

I didn't test it, but Kempfand replied with advice not to do it this way. The beginning of the files can be slightly out of sync.
He has however two alternaticves, which you can read here :

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75613

EoH

[daphy]

sorry, this link leeds to your post again

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...8181#post488181

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by daphy
sorry, this link leeds to your post again

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.p...8181#post488181

Oops....

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75613

kind regards,

EoH

[alastor]

Sorry but i d'ont speake fluently english.

The solution d'ont work with small files like mp3 songs, but work very well with big files like films sountrack.

I test tree different films 2 chapters in a serie 40 minutes each and a regular film. 105 minutes. 2,5 GB input wav file.

In all cases the bidule's layout work.

May be differences between song wav file and film wave file? The frames indicators? I d'ont know,

Alastor

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by alastor
Sorry but i d'ont speake fluently english.

The solution d'ont work with small files like mp3 songs, but work very well with big files like films sountrack.

I test tree different films 2 chapters in a serie 40 minutes each and a regular film. 105 minutes. 2,5 GB input wav file.

In all cases the bidule's layout work.

May be differences between song wav file and film wave file? The frames indicators? I d'ont know,

Alastor

When you use NTFS the limit is 4 GB !!
On Fat32 it's 2 GB.....


Away now for a 2.5 week vacation ! Yeah !!!

EoH

[alastor]

I finish to encode a very large film 2:09:04:412
Efectively i have small differences in time lenght of files center channel and lfe are ...04:064, surround 04:053 and front channels 04:405.

These differences are not significatives for a film, and the sound resultant is greather.

The proces is Bidule layout mod ( 6 recorders ) 16 bit deep, offline processing on.

Tomorrow test with offline processing off.

Alastor

[Tantulus]

I know that when I work with analogue to digital it is always advantagious to have the extra headroom with 32 bit. Why is there a need to process CD data in 32 bits when it ultimately will remain as 16 bit?

Also How does one label the files for Alaster's six recorder method E.G. Audio 001, 002 etc and how does the besweet batch file accomodate the 6 separate files. Does one run a batch file for the original batch file? I'm confused at this point!

However, as in the guide I thing multiple instances of the besweet batch should do the trick.

I haven't tried it yet but I think I could do this in Audition without using besweet. But I would like to save the work.

Regards,

Scott

[kempfand]

Why is there a need to process CD data in 32 bits when it ultimately will remain as 16 bit?
This was discussed multiple times all over.
Main reasons:
(a) Advised by all audio professionals and experts
(b) Most VST's work internally using 32 or 64 bit, and driving them with more data depth will just make 'work' them better
(c) Most important: Make a listening test yourself. We did many blind ones, and could tell the difference most of the time

But: If (after you tested yourself) you are happy with 16-bit, go for it. After all, this is just a guide, not a law :)

Also How does one label the files for Alaster's six recorder method As written elsewhere, don't use 6 mono-recorders because that will lead do un-synched things in the beginning (wouldn't be an issue if it was at the end). Use 6-channel File Recorder (32-bit files), and the BeSweet v1.5b27+ to demux to 32-bit with option "-6chfloat".

Regards,
Andreas

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by kempfand
This was discussed multiple times all over.
Main reasons:
(a) Advised by all audio professionals and experts
(b) Most VST's work internally using 32 or 64 bit, and driving them with more data depth will just make 'work' them better
(c) Most important: Make a listening test yourself. We did many blind ones, and could tell the difference most of the time

But: If (after you tested yourself) you are happy with 16-bit, go for it. After all, this is just a guide, not a law :)

As written elsewhere, don't use 6 mono-recorders because that will lead do un-synched things in the beginning (wouldn't be an issue if it was at the end). Use 6-channel File Recorder (32-bit files), and the BeSweet v1.5b27+ to demux to 32-bit with option "-6chfloat".

Regards,
Andreas

With a max length of the CD of 682 MB.......

I am away ;)

TTYL guys !

EoH

[alastor]

A question please.

I undestand the convenience of using 32 bytes deep.

Usualy the sountrack film is in 16 bytes deep, is possible to convert for process at 32 bytes float, but at end of process it is neccesary re-convert a 16 bit, or 24 for sonic foundry, because the dvd reproducers not support 32 bytes.

All convert reconvert not suppose a quality loss?

Headac3 has these conversion, is a good program?

Alastor

[kempfand]

All convert reconvert not suppose a quality loss?
Headac3 has these conversion, is a good program?

My understanding is that it depends which SW you use to convert/reconvert. If done properly, you won't get too much quality loss. I use CoolEdit/Audition with the "Convert Sample Type". Slow but good results.

I don't know HeadAC3 too well, so I cannot comment on this.

Andreas

[Tantulus]

This was discussed multiple times all over.

Sorry Andreas! I found the discussion on the merits of 32 bit processing early in this thread a bit confusing. (pardon the pun)

As to the multiple recorders, I am nervous about using besweet with files greater then 2 megs. I'll give it a try with the suggests mentioned in the thread. However I did try the SAD method on a shorter file with one recorder and I did find the results "amazing".

Thanks for the patience and the advice from others

Scott :o

[Umma]

I used Besweet tonight on a 2.58 GB 48/32-bit file tonight. Worked fine. :)

[Tantulus]

I'm trying a 2.9 Gig file and I'm getting different file lengths (at least it transcode all the way). Looks like I'm going to have to split the file.

Scott

P.S. Never mind! I didn't have enough disk space. After clearing things up besweet worked fine.

Once again, my naivety is exposed. 2.9 GB works fine.

[desertrat]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Kempfand and me developed a new bidule based on the old Kpex method.
The results (especially on synths music are amazing !)

You need of course Bidule from Plogue and the HNM filter which can be found on Daphy's site.

The new bidule can be downloaded from :
http://www.app.demon.nl/SAD5.1inBidule.rar

It uses freeware only !!

Please give it a try and share your thoughts !!

kind regards,

Eye of Horus

Thanks very much EOH and Kempfand. I have tried this new SAD5.1 bidule and am very pleased with the results. My test was done using The Best Of The Art Of Noise (1988 Version) and it came out so good, I had to do another AON right away. I have used ambisonic and wxyz methods with this album and was never quite happy with how they came out. For this type of music this bidule is excellent.

Cheers,
desertrat

[ursamtl]

Hi,

As I mentioned in another thread earlier today, I've been playing around with the various stereo-to-5.1 methods presented in the forum here. I've tried the Ambisonics guide several times, along with some of the variations presented throughout the thread. So far, I've not been at all impressed with the results. I've read the statements that the method presented here may not be to everyone's liking, but I've also read other comments from people who describe the ambisonic approach as providing a nice soundstage that gives a sense of a defined space, etc. All I've been able to get so far is a greatly narrowed stereo field that borders on mono with the same thing duplicated in the rear surround speakers. I don't think it's a case of bad connections as I've retried it several times according to the instructions. Plus, if I play with the controls in b_pan and bprocedit, I can hear the soundfield move around from one speaker to the other, but I don't get a sense of width to the sound. It's almost like panning a mono signal around four or five channels.

I'm not looking for instruments coming out of all speakers. Ideally I want as close as possible to the same big, immersive sound I get from a nice 5.1 DVD sountrack. I want the surround channels to reinforce the front and give me the sense that the instrument is playing on a soundstage in front of me, as if I'm in the room. The positive comments I've read about ambisonics seem to indicate that this is what people are getting, but I'm not!

I've gotten a far more pleasing result by creating a bidule that more or less duplicates the calculations in the Matrixmixer DirectX filter (from sourceforge) and then adding SIR to the back (with another dummy SIR on the front channels) and loading it with an impulse recorded from a Lexicon 960 that I found at www.noisevault.com. The impulse called "big wooden room" seems to work very well with the right levels. I'm at work now on my lunch break so I have no access to my files, but I'll try to post the bidule when I'm home.

In closing let me echo some other comments I've read here in saying that all the work you people are doing is truly amazing. I've learned a lot and am thoroughly enjoying all this experimenting! Keep it up!

[Tantulus]

Ursamtl:
Kempfand has a "true ambiphonics" with ambisonics for the surround. I found this method to truely broaden the sound with depth added by the rear speakers. The only problem is getting the front speakers to form a 10 degree angle. I rewired my front speakers to acheive this angle and I was impressed. However, it's a nusience to move the speakers when switching from music to movies.

I have experimented with reverb but my inexperience only produced an echoing sound but no ambience. I've thought of using Audtion (formally Cool Edit Pro) and then feeding the file to the bidule. Again, I'm too inexperienced to work out the myriad of settings for the Reverb effect. Short of the ambiphonic method I've found the SAD5.1 method very satisfactory. I can hear solo instruments coming from the center speaker and I can locate sections of a symphonic orchestra. I agree with you that I still don't feel true ambience but I compared some of the bidules with a DVD of a live recording of Beethoven's 9th and I got some ambience but the soundscape wasn't that broad either. Someday, I'd like to sneak into Symphony Hall and record an impulse for convolution but I don't have the equipment.

That said, I'm looking forward to your bidule. Thanks for your contribution.

Scott

[specise_8472]

Originally posted by Tantulus
Ursamtl:
Kempfand has a "true ambiphonics" with ambisonics for the surround. I found this method to truely broaden the sound with depth added by the rear speakers. The only problem is getting the front speakers to form a 10 degree angle. I rewired my front speakers to acheive this angle and I was impressed. However, it's a nusience to move the speakers when switching from music to movies.

What I think Kempfand has done is the same as me.
Most modern Amps have an A and B output for the front speakers.
Just put a second set of speakers on the B channel for Ambipole recordings. (10 deg.). Then just use remote to switch between music and movies.

[ursamtl]

Originally posted by Tantulus
Ursamtl:

I have experimented with reverb but my inexperience only produced an echoing sound but no ambience....Someday, I'd like to sneak into Symphony Hall and record an impulse for convolution but I don't have the equipment.



Well hey, go to www.noisevault.com and check out the impulses there that are free to download. Load them into SIR and try it out. I haven't had the chance to play around much with this stuff yet, but the potential is amazing.


That said, I'm looking forward to your bidule. Thanks for your contribution.


I haven't had time to put it all together yet. Last night when I sat down and looked at my bidule, I realized it was a messy mass of connections. It sounds good, but it looks like hell! :) I also realized that, although I did some initial experiments with encoding 5.1 files and burning to CD, most of my time has been spent monitoring the different bidules through a Soundblaster Live using the amazing kx drivers from www.kxproject.dom. I add a kx ASIO out device in plogue (15 channels available!) and then route them to the appropriate speakers using the kx DSP applet, which also has a similar modular connection setup.

Anyway, I'll clean up my bidule, add a 6-chan File Recorder in place of the kx ASIO outs and upload it on the weekend.

[kempfand]

Originally posted by specise_8472
What I think Kempfand has done is the same as me.
Most modern Amps have an A and B output for the front speakers.
Just put a second set of speakers on the B channel for Ambipole recordings. (10 deg.). Then just use remote to switch between music and movies. This is exactly how I do it. It actually was specise_8472 who triggered the idea of doing it that way.

Originally posted by ursamtl
Well hey, go to www.noisevault.com and check out the impulses there that are free to download. Load them into SIR and try it out. I haven't had the chance to play around much with this stuff yet, but the potential is amazing. The readings and filters @ NoiseVault are TRUELY amazing, and it is so much fun to play with all these impulse responses.

using the amazing kx drivers from www.kxproject.com Didn't know this drivers, but am very keen to play with it. Thanks for hinting to this.

Kind regards,
Andreas

[specise_8472]

Have just uploaded to the FTP server some new toys.
Daphy will put on Web server when he can.

It is a very good Mono to stereo conversion utility. And feeding the result into one of the above 2 to 5 methods produces astounding results. Better than I had hoped for. I myself personally use my Allinone process.

Uploaded are 5 groups to put in the group directory of Plogue.
And 1 VST .dll file. This file is just the same x-talk cancel that I posted a while ago. But all of these files are needed to make it work.

They are
allpass 44.bgrp
allpass 48.bgrp
mono to stereo 44.bgrp :edit
mono to stereo 48.bgrp :edit
x-talk.bgrp
x-talk 15.dll

USEAGE:
After everything installed, just drag the mono to stero 44 or 48 group onto the screen and input mono, output to stereo recorder. As simple as that. At the moment the group only uses the allpass 44.bgrp. I am now uploading two new groups to do inputs of 44.1 and 48.

EDIT: have just uploaded the new bgps as mono to stereo 44 and 48.
Just choose the right one to match your input frequency.

For those interested - it is basically feeding the mono signal through two banks of cascaded filters. Each bank is a 19 pole Allpass filter. Then feeding the resultant signals through my x-talk filter to produce better channel seperation.

[Umma]

Each bank is a 19 pole Allpass filter. Then feeding the resultant signals through my x-talk filter to produce better channel seperation.


Can you explain, or point me to someplace that explains what is meant by "pole" in the context of audio?

Thanks!

[Tantulus]

I wish I could afford more speakers so that I don't have to move mine for the ambiphonic affect; perhaps someday...

So far my favorit method is SAD5.1inbidule and I would like to experiment with the noisevault SIRS. Could someone suggest or give me a hint how to add them to the bidule and how to use the multiple impluses.(16 in one set).

Finally, hurrah for the mono to stereo bidule. I've bee doing it with Audition using delays, mixing and echo effects with mediocre results. I really envy all of you that construct these bidules.

Regards,
Scott

[kempfand]

Could someone suggest or give me a hint how to add them to the bidule and how to use the multiple impluses The answer was already given some posts above on this page by ursamtl:

"Adding SIR to the back (with another dummy SIR on the front channels) and loading it with an impulse recorded from a Lexicon 960 that I found at www.noisevault.com."

Note the importance of adding dummy SIR's (you'll need 2 to cover L, R, C), or else things will be out of sync due to SIR's latency.

As to which impulses: This really depends on your taste and the music, but if you read the posts at Noisevault, you'll get an idea of what people rank best (such as the Sony DRE777 or Lexicon 960 ones :cool: ).

For artificial reverbs, you can try
- Classic Reverb (http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-reverb.php)
- Ambience (http://www.smartelectronix.com/~magnus/)
- FreeVerb (http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/Freeverb/)
or the various commercial ones from Wave Arts, SpinAudio, PSP, Waves, etc.)

Regards,
Andreas

[Shayne]

Hi,

Made me update bidule

Is anyone else having trouble with the new bidule 6601?

Or does anyone have it working with the guide?

Thank you

Peace

[Umma]

My files keep getting saved as "Raw PCM or Unsupported Format." Driving me bloody insane, it is! Can't figure it out!

[kempfand]

Look slike BeSweet currently only handles no WAVE Format Extensible and no 24-bit.

So you must set 'never' for the WAVE Format Extensible (with Preference), and use 16 or 32 bit for the Audio File Writer.

Regards,

Andreas

[Umma]

That did it, Andreas. Thanks. :)

[PeterC]

I get the following error from one of the mono to stereo groups in Bidule.

Unable to parse C:\program files\plogue\bidule\groups\mono to stereo 48.bgrp
An exception occurred! Type:UnexpectedEOFException, Message: The end of input was
not expected

What might be the cause of this ? :S

[ursamtl]

Hi folks,

As promised, I just uploaded a zip file containing the bidule I created in an attempt to emulate the equations for 5.1 I found in the MatrixMixer DirectX filter available on SourceForge.net. I've also included a couple of screen grabs to show the basic layout I use (it includes the kX ASIO outputs, which you may not have) and my rear SIR settings. It's simply a first attempt so my apologies if it duplicates something someone else here has tried and I've overlooked.

Note that the two front channels by themselves sound almost like surround channels. Adding the center channel gives them the body they need. You can use the four level controls to play around with the mix, providing you can monitor. For the LFE level, if your input file has a lot of bass, back off on this level a bit.


One thing I may try to implement for next version is a crossover routing lower octaves from the center back to the individual front left and right channels (since a lot of center speakers don't have as full a range).

This was all done @ 44.1k, 16-bits. I haven't had time to experiment with higher levels. One thing I am curious about is that no one has mentioned dithering if you convert to 32 bits for processing and then write 16-bit files.

Anyway, enjoy. This gives a huge sound to some recordings with a lot of ambient pads, etc. I tried Seal's Love's Divine last night and it sounded gigantic! It also sounded great with the remastered tracks from Deep Purple Machine Head or Elton's Tiny Dancer.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by ursamtl
One thing I am curious about is that no one has mentioned dithering if you convert to 32 bits for processing and then write 16-bit files.

When you convert in Soundforge from 16 bits to 32 bits, there is no dither option.
The 6 mono 32 bits files are directly used in Surcode.
So there is no dithering involved at all.......
Of course it would be different if you do the 32 to 16 bits in SF or CE !

I certainly will try out your method and compare it with the one we're currently working on (and the others)!

Good job and perhaps you can consider a newbie manual ?

kind regards,

EoH