GUIDE: Stereo to 5-Channel Surround

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Boulder
Thanks EoH, it's a very fine guide indeed:) I'm converting some older VHS tapes to DVD and I'm using the guide to make a 5.1 AC3 track - the tapes have a surprisingly good stereo sound despite the fact that the material was shot on a handheld camera long time ago.


Thanks !!
Love your signature !!!!
Please take a look at my homepage :-)

EoH

[24hourloop]

Maybe I am asking a question with an obvious answer:

a.) One method suggested using EAX, pump the thing through the conversion and then burn with the same CUE file. Unfortunately the WAV is now 1.6GB and I could locate no tool that would load the CUE. What should I use?

Using Softencode I would wind up with an AC3. How would I burn the AC3? For a regular DVD I need video or none of the tools I know will create a structure, not even IFOEDIT.

What am I missing?

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by 24hourloop
Maybe I am asking a question with an obvious answer:

a.) One method suggested using EAX, pump the thing through the conversion and then burn with the same CUE file. Unfortunately the WAV is now 1.6GB and I could locate no tool that would load the CUE. What should I use?

First : so this won't fit onto a cd :-) download Daemon tools and see if you can load the CUE into that ....


Using Softencode I would wind up with an AC3. How would I burn the AC3? For a regular DVD I need video or none of the tools I know will create a structure, not even IFOEDIT.

What am I missing?

You can burn AC3's with Sonic AC3 DVD Burner (max of 99 tracks) or use DVD Architect to make a music DVD. You can burn as much as you want (well : 99 x 99 songs maximum !). I love this program !
Here is a link to a guide I wrote :

Make a music DVD with DVD Architect
http://www.app.demon.nl/guides.htm
Good luck !

[24hourloop]

Great, thanx.

The DVD Architect method looks promising ;-)

[Umma]

Question: Couldn't we use dts with Maestro or Scenarist in the same way you suggest composing an AC3 DVD with Architect? I would love to try...but learning those progs is a b*tch...especially Scenarist.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Umma
Question: Couldn't we use dts with Maestro or Scenarist in the same way you suggest composing an AC3 DVD with Architect? I would love to try...but learning those progs is a b*tch...especially Scenarist.

I never tried it, but I think it should....
As video you use a static picture that doesn't change throughout the song. And I agree about the learning curve.....
Perhaps the newer programs can handle DTS too ? DVD Lab, TMPG Author ?

It's a pity DVD Architect became part of a package....but I still hope they will bring out an update for DTS and where you can use AC3 and DTS, without gaps !

EoH

[vtwin0001]

Can somebody please point me out where can I find Wav2wav6.exe ???

I couldn't find it here nor in google.

Thanks.

[davidv@plogue]

Hi there.

A new beta of bidule is available on plogue.com
We fixed some issues with disc streaming and parameter saving.

This doesnt include however, the Offline mode yet.

its available here:
http://plogue.com/download_form.php?file=PlogueBiduleInstaller6500test1.exe

Please try it out if you experienced problems.

Davidv

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by vtwin0001
Can somebody please point me out where can I find Wav2wav6.exe ???

I couldn't find it here nor in google.

Thanks.
It IS in this thread :-)

Well, anyway here's the link again :
http://akson.sgh.waw.pl/~wj23277/wav2wav6.zip

EoH

[vtwin0001]

Thank you, I guess I didnt searched that well...

:D

[Boulder]

Originally posted by davidv@plogue
Hi there.

A new beta of bidule is available on plogue.com
We fixed some issues with disc streaming and parameter saving.

This doesnt include however, the Offline mode yet.

its available here:
http://plogue.com/download_form.php?file=PlogueBiduleInstaller6500test1.exe

Please try it out if you experienced problems.

Davidv

Thanks, David.

Would you happen to have a changelog somewhere? I'd like to see what's changed before I upgrade:)

Did you notice my bug report a bit earlier in this thread?

@EoH: Thanks, I'll definitely have to check your website out:) Ain't it funny how all the PF and Alan Parsons fans seem to fiddle with this surround stuff?

[Eye of Horus]

@EoH: Thanks, I'll definitely have to check our website out:) Ain't it funny how all the PF and Alan Parsons fans seem to fiddle with this surround stuff?

LOL !!
I think that's because WE heard the Quad version of DSOTM and the DTS of On Air !!

grtz,

EoH

[davidv@plogue]

Yes i saw the bug report. we are investigating.
Allthough im unable to reproduce it.

We've changed some file handling code in the latest version,
mind to have a go?

revision history:
http://plogue.com/bidule/experimental.html


Cheers

[davidv@plogue]

speaking of DSOTM in quad.

Anyone has the SQ quad vinyl somewhere?
I have the schematics for a .bidule file that decodes CBS SQ.
But since im not yet 'setup" to do quad/5.1, i never tested it using
my copy of walter carlos's "switched on back" SQ Quad.

I guess if i had an example of say the intro to money in SQ,
idd speed up my setup :)

Cheers

[Boulder]

Thanks, upgrading it is then:) I have some stereo->5.1 work to do this week so it'll be a nice test too.

The bug could well be system dependent, those are hard to trace. We'll see if I can reproduce it with the latest version.

[Vidi_It]

Originally posted by davidv@plogue
speaking of DSOTM in quad.

Anyone has the SQ quad vinyl somewhere?
I have the schematics for a .bidule file that decodes CBS SQ.
But since im not yet 'setup" to do quad/5.1, i never tested it using
my copy of walter carlos's "switched on back" SQ Quad.

I guess if i had an example of say the intro to money in SQ,
idd speed up my setup :)

Cheers

I have a copy of DSOTM in sq. Tell me about the Bidule schematic as I would also like to convert it to 5.1.:)

[davidv@plogue]

Hi

Its basically to create a bidule group that has 2 ins and 4 outs
and does the maths that are on this page:
http://www.mtsu.edu/~dsmitche/rim456/Quad/Quad_Formats.html

the only "obscure" part is doing a 90degree phase shift,
But just use the BiduleFIR, and do a "hilbert transform"

Ill try to to the bgrp for you if i get the chance...

[daphy]

sounds interesting :rolleyes:

hope you find the necessary time ;)

[Tantulus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
This is how the layout should be :

fl > fl
fr > c
c > fr
sl > lfe
sr > sl
lfe > sr

(Thanks Rasta21 !)

kind regards,

EoH

I'm confused with the Wav2Wav6 layout. First of all my files are named Front_Left.wav etc. instead of fl etc. Do these files need to be renamed? Second, is it simply a matter of just inserting them into surcode be remapping them?

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Tantulus
I'm confused with the Wav2Wav6 layout. First of all my files are named Front_Left.wav etc. instead of fl etc. Do these files need to be renamed? Second, is it simply a matter of just inserting them into surcode be remapping them?

Front_Left =FL etc.

You can remap them by putting them in the right place in Surcode.
But you can bet you will forget at some point and put them in without the right mapping :D

EoH

[echooff]

Has anyone run DSOTM thru bidule. Can anyone reccomend other albums that compare with sterotomy after bidule.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by echooff
Has anyone run DSOTM thru bidule. Can anyone reccomend other albums that compare with sterotomy after bidule.

Stereotomy was (AFAIK) the only rock album recorded with the special Ambisonic microphones.......


EoH

[Tantulus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Front_Left =FL etc.

You can remap them by putting them in the right place in Surcode.
But you can bet you will forget at some point and put them in without the right mapping :D

EoH

You're absolutely right. I get confused when I try to put the files in the right place in Surcode. Thanks for your sage advice.

[TerraForce1]

Hi, is there a freeware .mpa vst-plugin avalaible. I would like to run some mp2 audio files trough bidule.

[davidv@plogue]

Originally posted by TerraForce1
Hi, is there a freeware .mpa vst-plugin avalaible. I would like to run some mp2 audio files trough bidule.

Hum there is a decoder yes
"Read MPEG 1&2 (layer 1,2,3) files (i.e. .mp1, .mp2, .mp3). "
(so rename your mpa to whatever the format, prolly mp2)
Get it here
http://askywhale.free.fr/vst/
Warning, this plugin seems to load the decompressed file in ram!!

Now since Bidule only process uncompressed audio streams (and will always be that way), you would have to reencode the output to mpa again after the processing.

So imho you should maybe uncompress the mpa -> wav then use the Bidule
file player and recorder.

[echooff]

@Eye of Horus




I guess what I was meaning to ask was a little input on what cd's people have tried and good results. It's my understanding from reading the thread that some produce poor results. I have recently upgraded my stereo system and I want to quickly out put a few that I can enjoy while I tinker with settings and cds

[Umma]

Pink Floyd gives good results. I've gotten good results on everything except U2. The Unforgettable Fire is heavy in the reverb, anyway, and I have a hard time keeping it from sounding muddy. The Beatles don't seem to sound right for me, either. I'm working on the White Album.

Peter, Paul and Mary, Crosby, Stills, and Nash came out great...

[echooff]

Thanx, I'm going to play with my new toys tonite! Anybody try tubular bells or any van halen?

[kempfand]

Gerzonic (http://www.gerzonic.net/) has published 1 update (Emigrator) and 2 new toys:

Panorama
Panorama is a 2nd Order Ambisonic Panner with a very simple user interface in the tradition of bPan.
InterGate8 Demo
The demo of InterGate8 is online! A virtual 100% ambisonic mixing desk. Limitations of the Demo: only the first two channels can be used. The Demo is first order only. Full versions shall be available in a few days.
Emigrator 1.0 (latest built)
A new build of Emigrator is available. It fixes one bug: The UI was not updated according to the internal state when loading a project in some hosts. This has been fixed for OSX and win32. Maybe this release will work in Nuendo 2.0, who knows..
Kind regards,
Andreas

[ChristianHJW]

Please explain a bit more in detail ? What exactly can i do with those plugins ? Could it help us using Vorbis surround some day ?

[echooff]

Do a search on ambisonics in the forum. Several extensive threads on the subject.

[kempfand]

Btw: I meant to add this to the sticky-post / Ambisonic guide, so I made a mistake here :devil:

No big deal, but if one of the Moderators can move / end-add it there, the better.

Regards,
Andreas

[daphy]

Hi Andreas,

have you made some testings with the new emigrator? ;)

A new build of Emigrator is available. It fixes one bug: The UI was not updated according to the internal state when loading a project in some hosts. This has been fixed for OSX and win32.

for me this bug didn´t apear again since Bidule 0.6500test1 :rolleyes:

CYA Daphy

[kempfand]

No tests yet from my side on the latest built of emigrator :(
Too much at professional work-place currently ongoing for me :o

I'll wait with further tests until the final Bidule 6.5 is out, which is rumored to offer a warp-speed offline-mode :D

Andreas

[Tantulus]

Originally posted by echooff
@Eye of Horus




I guess what I was meaning to ask was a little input on what cd's people have tried and good results. It's my understanding from reading the thread that some produce poor results. I have recently upgraded my stereo system and I want to quickly out put a few that I can enjoy while I tinker with settings and cds

If you like Orchestral music I strongly suggest The Beethoven Nine Symphonies conducted by H. von Karajan. Feels like your in a concert hall.:)

[kempfand]

You might want to try your preference from the following list. They have been reported in the quadraphonicquad forum section (http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/) to give impressive surround effects when played back through various high end decoders. I'm sure this is a good starting-point for the Ambisonic method(s) :sly:

Albums:

Aphrodite's Child -666 - 1969 Vertigo LP - 838 430-2

Beasty Boys-Hello Nasty QS Decoder

Beatles - Revolver (especially "Tomorrow Never Knows") QS Decoder

Beatles - Sgt Pepper QS Decoder

Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour
(except Walrus) QS Decoder

Beatles - White Album QS Decoder

Beatles - Yellow Submarine Original version- QS Decoder

Big Brother And The Holding Co - Cheap Thrills QSD-1

Blue Cheer - Outside Inside QSD-1

Captain Beefheart-Trout Mask Replica SQ Decoder

Paula Cole - This Fire SQ Logic

John Cooper Clarke - Best Of SQ Logic

Julian Cope-Rite 1, Rite 2, Rite Now Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Julian Cope - St. Julian QSD-1

Dead Can Dance-Into The Labyrinth Sansui Variomatrix-Surround Setting

Thomas Dolby- She Blinded Me With Science QSD-1

Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited QS decoder

Bob Dylan - Blonde On Blonde QS decoder

Fleetwood Mac - Then Play On QSD-1

Fortran 5 - Bad Head Park Tate II, surround mode

John Foxx- Metamatic Virgin CDV2146 QS decoder-Surround Setting

Peter Gabriel - Secret World Live SQ Logic

Rory Gallagher - Wheels within Wheels (2nd half of album) SQ Logic

Rory Gallagher - Let's Go To Work (Box Set) SQ Logic

Godspeed You Black Emperor-F#A# Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Grateful Dead - Anthem Of The Sun QSD-1

Joji Hirota -The Gate SQ Logic

Iron Maiden - Dance of Death Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Jefferson Airplane - After Bathing At Baxter's QSD-1

Jimi Hendrix-Are You Experienced? Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Jimi Hendrix-Electric Ladyland Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Jimi Hendrix Experience - Axis Bold As Love QSD-1

Jethro Tull-Benefit QSD-1

King Crimson-In The Wake Of Poseiden Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Paul McCartney-Ram QS Decoder

Monster Magnet - Powertrip QSD-1

Moody Blues - In Search Of The Lost Chord QSD-1

The Mothers of Invention -Uncle Meat QS Decoder 1968 Bizarre/Warner Reprise LP - 2MS 2024

Nektar - Journey To The Center Of The Eye QSD-1

John Parish and Polly Jean Harvey-Dance Hall at Louse Point Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Pink Floyd-Piper At The Gates of Dawn Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Pink Floyd-Pompeii Sessions Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Pink Floyd-Saucerful of Secrets Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Pink Floyd-Ummagumma (studio sides) Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Robert Plant & the Strange Sensation - Dreamland
SQ Logic

Procol Harum - A Salty Dog QSD-1

Psychedelic Furs - Book Of Days QSD-1

Radiohead - Hail To The Thief Tate II, surround mode

Rolling Stones - Their Satanic Majesties Royal Request QS Decoder

The Sensational Alex Harvey Band - Rock Drill SQ Logic

Simon And Garfunkel - Bookends QS Decoder

Soundgarden - A-Sides QSD-1, surround mode

Spirit - The Twelve Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus QSD-1

Tangerine Dream-Alpha Centuri Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Tangerine Dream-Zeit Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

United States Of America - United States Of America QS Decoder - 1967 Columbia LP CS9614

Andreas Vollenweider - Book of Roses SQ Logic

Andreas Vollenweider - White Winds SQ Logic

Andreas Vollenweider - Dancing With the Lion SQ Logic

Rick Wakeman & The English Rock Ensemble-Out of the Blue Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Yes-Tales From Topographic Oceans Sansui Variomatrix-Surround setting

Frank Zappa-Lumpy Gravy Tate-SQ Mode

Regards,
Andreas

[echooff]

Thank you for the input. Gonna have fun tonite.

[Gradius]

I'm trying to do a 5.1, but I just get an empty wave on LFE channel.

Check my config here (http://www.digitalanime.com.br/config.jpg).

Please, someone post a clean LFE guide.

Gradius

[PeterC]

As a newbie to this technique I'd like to clarify one thing ?

Is it important to convert...16bit 44.1khz material
that I rip from audio cd's to 32 bit before playing
it through Bidule ?

I did mix a few Queen albums
( Queen and Queen II ) with ambisonics as a test and created
a DTS-cd combining the two using this guide.

Most of the mixes hardly gained anything from it with the exception
of a few songs (shame really), mind me
I have the oldest remasters of the set that are
said to be poor compared to the current 24bit remasters.
(I actually prefer my vinyl versions to the cd's I have..they are that..cold sounding)

But as a plus side. Live recordings sounds really
nice usually in ambisonics...or whatever the proper term for this would be. Ambi-dts ? I tested on several stereo sourced fm-radio broadcast recordings and other quality live material with stereo separation (fm/soundboard sourced bootlegs mainly) and was pleased with what I heard.

Anyone done any experimenting with their BPAN etc settings for live recordings etc ? I'm curious to what has given good results other than
the default settings displayed on this guide.
Thanks.

And a big thank you to 'Eye of Horus' for this guide.

:D

[iSpy]

I was just wondering where I could find the program wav2wav6.exe that is spoken of in this thread. Thanks, iSpy

[jorel]

link from Maxiuca posted here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52692&perpage=20&highlight=wav2wav6.exe&pagenumber=2

maybe is working:
http://tommers.w.interia.pl/wav2wav6.zip

http://akson.sgh.waw.pl/~wj23277/wav2wav6.zip

:)

[Umma]

Gradius...did you ever solve your problem?

Peter C...

I'm experimenting right now with some live stuff, but I haven't really manipulated any of the ambisonic settings. I had to run the wav through cool edit to try and clear up the muddle of the mid-range, first, but I'm having trouble cleaning up. I don't experiment with the ambisonic settings because in order to hear the results I have to burn it, and I went through too many CDs, too fast.

What live stuff are you working with? ROIOs? :)

Eye of Horus...if you get the chance to read this...do you think you can convince Eric to do another APP album in ambisonics? Better yet, bring him here and ask him to post. :D

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Umma
Gradius...did you ever solve your problem?

Peter C...

I'm experimenting right now with some live stuff, but I haven't really manipulated any of the ambisonic settings. I had to run the wav through cool edit to try and clear up the muddle of the mid-range, first, but I'm having trouble cleaning up. I don't experiment with the ambisonic settings because in order to hear the results I have to burn it, and I went through too many CDs, too fast.

What live stuff are you working with? ROIOs? :)

Eye of Horus...if you get the chance to read this...do you think you can convince Eric to do another APP album in ambisonics? Better yet, bring him here and ask him to post. :D

S..t !!!
Just came back from a radio recording in the studios in Hilversum - the Netherlands. Had an excellent time with Eric ! But..... did not ask this :-(

Well..... pictures will be on the website within a few hours !

grtz,

EoH

[TerraForce1]

Hi,

I am experiencing some problems with windows 98 se and bidule. The program gets stuck at the opening screen.

I tried some GL test , they worked allright. Does somebody has a clue?

[Umma]

Bidule's home page says that it is mostly for Win2K though some people have gotten it to work with Win98. :(

[Umma]

So, uh...when is the new Bidule coming out?

[davidv@plogue]

Originally posted by Umma
So, uh...when is the new Bidule coming out?

For bidule-specific questions, you might have better chances on posting on our own phorums here http://plogue.com/phorum/list.php?f=1

However for questions about the usage on bidule in the context
of a 5.1 mix, here is fine.

To answer the question though we will release 0.6500 final
before the first half of december. I might include the
"Offline rendering" mode.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by davidv@plogue
For bidule-specific questions, you might have better chances on posting on our own phorums here http://plogue.com/phorum/list.php?f=1

However for questions about the usage on bidule in the context
of a 5.1 mix, here is fine.

To answer the question though we will release 0.6500 final
before the first half of december. I might include the
"Offline rendering" mode.

Might ???? You'd better !!!!! :devil: :D :D

Eye of Horus

[Umma]

Thanks for the reply, David. I can't WAIT for that offline rendering mode!

Yup. EoH already got the guide written up... :D

You know, guys, I've been using Virtual Microphone almost exclusively after processing through Bidule. The way I've been doing it is to just record the 4 channels that come out of bfprocedit as a wxyz file, then run it through VVM with the master gain at 3.1, using the 5.1 option (and the link boxes checked). VVM is FAST! Spits out 6 mono files in no time at all. Gotta shut it down after about 4 big conversions and start it right back up, though. I guess it's not releasing the memory, but the speed of the program MORE than cancels this out as an annoyance. Starts up fast and processes fast.

I'm not saying it's better than Besweet. You can customize your output a lot more intricately with Besweet, if you need to (and I have/do, with the DVD wavs).

Sometimes I find the final dts wav sounds better if I leave the subwoofer out (as in the original method, especially for live Floyd, anyway), but I assign the wavs as
FL = 1
FR = 3
C = 2
SUB = 4 (if I use it at all)
SL = 5
SR = 6

I'd be interested to hear what others think of this program.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Umma
Thanks for the reply, David. I can't WAIT for that offline rendering mode!

Yup. EoH already got the guide written up... :D

You know, guys, I've been using Virtual Microphone almost exclusively after processing through Bidule. The way I've been doing it is to just record the 4 channels that come out of bfprocedit as a wxyz file, then run it through VVM with the master gain at 3.1, using the 5.1 option (and the link boxes checked). VVM is FAST! Spits out 6 mono files in no time at all. Gotta shut it down after about 4 big conversions and start it right back up, though. I guess it's not releasing the memory, but the speed of the program MORE than cancels this out as an annoyance. Starts up fast and processes fast.

I'm not saying it's better than Besweet. You can customize your output a lot more intricately with Besweet, if you need to (and I have/do, with the DVD wavs).

Sometimes I find the final dts wav sounds better if I leave the subwoofer out (as in the original method, especially for live Floyd, anyway), but I assign the wavs as
FL = 1
FR = 3
C = 2
SUB = 4 (if I use it at all)
SL = 5
SR = 6

I'd be interested to hear what others think of this program.

Tried it a long time ago...... Don't know if that has changed, but the disadvantage was that it only worked with 16 bit files and thus you could hear the results were less bright than the original sound files........ And in this program it certainly was a hearable difference !

EoH