GUIDE: Stereo to 5-Channel Surround

[kempfand]

If you want safe & quick results, follow the guide on the 1st page of this threat.

The recent pages are on experimental "work-in-progress", which you might wanna try if you really are into it, but it needs a pretty good understanding of things to allow you understand "what's happening where".

I'm sure there will be new guides sooner or later, which describe howto do things. EoH already provided a quick one on the CS II VST the page before.

For the AmbioPhonic VSTs, the posted files contain a bidule to get you started. I've gotten some superb results with this one.

Andreas

[specise_8472]

I have just uploaded a Bidule to do 6.1 output from CSII to 6.1 DTS compatable.
I.E. SC mixed into LS and RS.

ftp://daphy.mine.nu/Ambiophonics/circle2ne06.rar

[specise_8472]

I have just uploaded a bidule to do reverse engineering of 5.1 sounds.
Read the Post 5.1 to WXYZ and Back to get a better idea what this is about.

I posted this here so as subscribed users will get notified:p

[daphy]

I have just uploaded a bidule to do reverse engineering of 5.1 sounds.
Read the Post 5.1 to WXYZ and Back (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68646) to get a better idea what this is about.
I think with this link it´s easier to find ;)

@ all

please do not link directly to files on the FTP-Server, because if we change anything like moving files etc. this link could be dead! :(


@specise_8472 & kempfand

this weekend I will tryout all the bidules you and kempfand have uploaded!!! (promised) ;)

CYA Daphy

[dannyv]

Originally posted by specise_8472
Have just uploaded to the FTP site a VST plugin to do ambiophonics.
At the moment just does the six mentioned encodings.


@Specise_8472

I can't seem to get on te FTP site to get this new ambisonic vts plug in. Can you tell me how I can get this vts I would realy like to try it out.

Thanks,
Dan

[@ndy]

Originally posted by dannyv
@Specise_8472

I can't seem to get on te FTP site to get this new ambisonic vts plug in. Can you tell me how I can get this vts I would realy like to try it out.

Thanks,
Dan

You`ll probably find it here (ftp://daphy.mine.nu/ambiophonics)

@ndy

[kempfand]

It's always good to have the latest updates ;)

- Bidule v0.6502 : Bidule Site (http://www.plogue.com/bidule/)

- Swiss & York Ambisonic VST's January 13th, 2004: this is a temporary download page (http://www.dmalham.freeserve.co.uk/alpha/vst_ambisonics_alphas.html)

Cheers,
Andreas

[daphy]

- Swiss & York Ambisonic VST's January 13th, 2004

will be uploaded to the ftp ASAP

Here the direct download link for plogue bidule 0.6502 (http://www332.pair.com/plogue/download/PlogueBiduleInstaller.exe) (I see no use in uploading this to the ftp, because plogue has a much better i-net connection as we have!)

CYA Daphy


Edit:
done ;)

[desertrat]

Hi,

I am new to this forum... been mostly reading since Novemeber.
I've done about 10 - 15 ambisonic mixes since then, about half of them in the DTS CD format and the other half in AC3 to make a larger compilation on DVD (haven't found a good easy to use DVD authoring program that will support DTS and is easy for making music compilations - if anyone has any recommendations from what they've tried... it would be appreciated). Most of these ambisonic mixes that I have done so far are on instrumental music. (Works exceptionally well with Ambient music... Brian Eno, JM Jarre, etc).

I have also tried the I, J, & K and CS II VST. The CS II VTS mix I can't say I was very impressed with the one track (bjork - joga) that I did. The Ambisonic mix actually sounded better to my ears. I am assuming that the CS II mix would need to be encoded in AC3 and not DTS (which is what I just tried) and will be trying that next to see if the results aren't better.

I was also wondering if anyone knows where there is a explanation of the differences between the I, J & K options. Having an understanding of what they do might make it easier to choose which option is the right one for a certain type of music.

Lastly I would like to thank everyone (especially Eye of Horus for his guide) who has been involved in this discussion for the knowledge that I have acquired here :)

Time to get back to the CS II VST since I've only got seven days with it ;)

Cheers,
desertrat

[specise_8472]

Originally posted by desertrat
Hi,
I was also wondering if anyone knows where there is a explanation of the differences between the I, J & K options. Having an understanding of what they do might make it easier to choose which option is the right one for a certain type of music.
Cheers,
desertrat

Welcome to the fray:)
I suppose I had better elaborate on this:

I = The microphone array is placed at source level (L,R), below acoustic shell reflections (C), EG an outdoor amphitheater event, with audience low and behind (SL,SR) and raked upward (SC)

J = The array is more closely placed before a small ensemble at source level for direct sound and early floor and sidewall reflections (L,R), higher direct solo and ceiling reflections (C), and hall ambience from back-up (SL,SR) and back down (SC)

K = The microphone array is in an arena with sports play-action or musical instruments at microphone level (L,R), and with good high front (C) and back (SC) crowd sounds or ceiling ambience

Obviously you will not get these results perfect, but gives you a good indication of the difference between them.
The overall feedback that comes through is that J is the best. But let your ears be the judge of that.

[desertrat]

Thanks for the info specise_8472 :)

Also now that I've done the CS II VTS mix with AC3 instead of DTS it sounds much better to my ears. Will do a bit more with the VST before I make any judgement.

Cheers,
desertrat

[trooper11]

Im new to the forum, bu tive bene reading article here for a few months. I have been experimenting with this guide to get tracks for dd 5.1 files. what i want to do is rip tracks forma cd, convert each track to dd 5.1 and play those on my pc, since i have surround speakers. I got the output of the 6 wav files, but which program is best to convert that to a dd 5.1 type of file and i wasnt sure if i could play that in any player, or if only some players will do that. Thanks.

[Shayne]

@Trooper11

Quote

"03. GOAL OF THE GUIDE

To make 5 mono Wav files from a stereo source with Ambisonics, that can be feed into a surround encoder like Surcode CD or Soft Encode."

I think you need to read and search a bit hard. Type sonic or surcode in google. Try them and let us know.

Peace

[xxx666yyy777]

Quick question to the Guide itself:

You (EoH?) mention to rotate the sound field by 36 degrees counterclockwise using the bfprocedit VST. Why is that? I did not encounter any reference in any of the descriptions/papers about Ambisonics/Ambiphonics I could find. Is it "just" based on listening experience?

Thanks!

[kempfand]

The guide describes B-format-decoding to Pentagon.

If you check the picture in Emigrator for the Pentagon-decode, you'll see that it has L-R-speakers "in front", and SL-SC-SR-speakers "in the back" (all with reference to the WXY-soundimage).

Since most of the listener's living-room configuration is such that L-C-F-speakers are "in front", and SL-SR-speakers are "in the back", you have to correct for this, i.e. rotate the sound-image as described.

If you don't, you'll hear it.

Cheers,
Ândreas

[xxx666yyy777]

Originally posted by kempfand
The guide describes B-format-decoding to Pentagon.

If you check the picture in Emigrator for the Pentagon-decode, you'll see that it has L-R-speakers "in front", and SL-SC-SR-speakers "in the back" (all with reference to the WXY-soundimage).

Since most of the listener's living-room configuration is such that L-C-F-speakers are "in front", and SL-SR-speakers are "in the back", you have to correct for this, i.e. rotate the sound-image as described.

If you don't, you'll hear it.

Cheers,
Ândreas

Thanks to the answer...makes sense! One more question however:
Isn't is possible (and maybe more exact) to mirror the soundfield at the X and then at the Y axis and then assigning speaker 3 (based on the Enigmator picture) as the center, skeaker 2 ad FR, speaker 4 as FL, and so on...? Just asking out of curiosity...not trying to be a pain in the behind...I just think that mirroring on the X and Y axis should be faster and more precise than doing some rotation around a "non-standard" (i.e. not pi, or pi/2, ...) angle...

[kempfand]

Isn't is possible (and maybe more exact) to mirror the soundfield at the X and then at the Y axis and then assigning speaker 3 (based on the Enigmator picture) as the center, skeaker 2 ad FR, speaker 4 as FL, and so on...? Interesting idea :) I think (but correct me if I'm wrong) that mirroring the X-axis would already do it. Speaker 3 would be C, speaker 2 ad FL, speaker 4 ad FR etc.
I just think that mirroring on the X and Y axis should be faster and more precise than doing some rotation around a "non-standard" (i.e. not pi, or pi/2, ...) angle... It's a very long time since I had my math courses on quantum mechanics. I think in theory you are right. In practice, it really depends on how things with the VST's are implemented. Also, today's power of the PC is so good that I think it doesn't really matter (but as I said above, I like your idea).

There is a B-Plane Mirror First Order Ambisonic B-format Mirror Control (http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/vst/bfpmirror_help.html) VST, which you might want to try or play around with.

Regards,
Andreas

[Mug Funky]

http://www.planetquake.com/filterfactory/3daudio.html

has anybody seen this? it this exact guide with a different layout (it links to it as well, so i suppose it's not complete plagiarism).

i was looking for help on emigrator and found it. i suppose in a way it's allright because it gives more people awareness of ambisonics, and as the guide is lifted from here it's not spreading mis-information about it, but there's nothing there to say that Eye of Horus came up with the guide this guy is taking credit for.

[edit]

i just posted in this guy's thread on the quake 3 forums...

[daphy]

http://www.planetquake.com/filterfactory/images/bidule.jpg
nice idea - shurely makes a big boom on the bass (if correct wired - LFE should be channel 4 in the emigrator, please compare your settings ->

1 > 3 = C
2 > 1 = FL
3 > 5 = SL
4 > 6 = SR -> your HNM-Filter boosts here
5 > 2 = FR
6 > 4 = LFE)

Please share your bidule on our FTP-Server (http://needfulthings.webhop.org/)

CYA Daphy

PS: EOH doesn´t mean 'Eye Of Horas' ;)

[kempfand]

Daphy: The channel-mapping is correct in that "copied guide",
as that guide goes for ac3 using ac3enc.dll.

-ac3enc/-6chogg
Channel 1->"FL"
Channel 2->"C"
Channel 3->"FR"
Channel 4->"SL"
Channel 5->"SR"
Channel 6->"LFE" Regards,
Andreas

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by kempfand
Daphy: The channel-mapping is correct in that "copied guide",
as that guide goes for ac3 using ac3enc.dll.

Regards,
Andreas

AC3Enc.DLL ? Yuck !!! :D

Eye of HorUs !

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Mug Funky
http://www.planetquake.com/filterfactory/3daudio.html

has anybody seen this? it this exact guide with a different layout (it links to it as well, so i suppose it's not complete plagiarism).

i was looking for help on emigrator and found it. i suppose in a way it's allright because it gives more people awareness of ambisonics, and as the guide is lifted from here it's not spreading mis-information about it, but there's nothing there to say that Eye of Horus came up with the guide this guy is taking credit for.

[edit]

i just posted in this guy's thread on the quake 3 forums...

Just read what you wrote on that forum. Thanks !
Indeed it would be nice to receive some credits. Especially when you see where my very first guide lead to ! We've gone a long way from the Cooledit method to the ones we use now and we're still not there :D
New methods are developed and the writing of a new guide is a thing to do the coming weeks.

Also I would like to point out the great improvement on the Fireverb package. I always liked the Fireverb method to built your own (clean !) pulses, but didn't like the (only) 16 bits method in their Multivolver. Now you can use 32 bits and up to 96 Khz (although that's still upsampled 48 !). But using 32 bits 48 Khz roompulses and convolve to 5.1 now gives excellent results without the dull sound the 16 bit version gave.
Highly recommended , if only for 30 days because of the high pricetag.
http://www.catt.se Where you can download a 30 days trial.

grtz,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

I would like to thank everyone here on the forum who knew about my illness and who shared their best wishes. It seems like it helped, because last Monday I had my first check after the radiation and the tumor is completely gone ! Of course I need to come back to hospital the coming months for more checks, but according to the doctor it looks good and she expects it will stay that way !

Now I need to build up some condition again and finally paying more attention to what's going on in 5.1 land :D

Thanks again m8es !

Eye of Horus

[bitsnbytes]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Just read what you wrote on that forum. Thanks !
Indeed it would be nice to receive some credits. Especially when you see where my very first guide lead to !

EoH

Lo All,
Sorry to hear from you in this manner :-(

But hey now you have looked at my site hah!

Sry but not many have taken advantage of your fine findings for quake3 trick movies. and I havnt had the time to continue the page.

but just so you know I didnt sneeky steal,I gave intentions
posted when they came about.

I also gave direct link to Eye of Horas guide
but if you feel disrespected I will add any comments to the page you like.


reference low numbered pages for my intentions
and here is page where i announced it http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60137&perpage=20&pagenumber=8

peace audio/bitsnbytes quake3 arena/G-Man

home of the filterfactory for quake3 arena mod servers for gamespy arcade

ps i hear surcode bronze will be like 99 bucks? for dvd_audio that would be sweet

[Mug Funky]

ah, okay. the direct link there made me think it wasn't "sneaky-steal", so i withheld total flamage on the quake forum... hope that wasn't too blunt there.

still, that was the only place on the page that mentioned EoH which kinda worried me. that's easily fixed i imagine :)

hehe.. to be honest, i totally suck at quake. can't move an inch without being blown-up/shredded/chopped/telefragged...

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by bitsnbytes
Lo All,
Sorry to hear from you in this manner :-(

But hey now you have looked at my site hah!

Sry but not many have taken advantage of your fine findings for quake3 trick movies. and I havnt had the time to continue the page.

but just so you know I didnt sneeky steal,I gave intentions
posted when they came about.

I also gave direct link to Eye of Horas guide
but if you feel disrespected I will add any comments to the page you like.


reference low numbered pages for my intentions
and here is page where i announced it http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60137&perpage=20&pagenumber=8

peace audio/bitsnbytes quake3 arena/G-Man

home of the filterfactory for quake3 arena mod servers for gamespy arcade

ps i hear surcode bronze will be like 99 bucks? for dvd_audio that would be sweet


Come on ! I am not offended at all. But the way you quote, it looks that way !!
The more people have advantage from my guide, the better !!!
I am honored that it is on other sites too !!

kind regards,

EoH

[kempfand]

Just for your information:

I've created a few LCR-Upmix Bidule Groups, which you might find useful: LCR Upmix Bidules (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=70678)

Cheers,
Andreas

[fateman]

i dunno what i'm doing wrong, but i followed the guide to a T and the surround file created from Bidule is blank
should i hear the file as i'm playing (and recording) it?

[Umma]

Don't take offense at any questions, cuz sometimes the simplest thing is sometimes overlooked. I should know...done that many times...

Did you make sure the processing button on the was on and the light was green before you started processing?

What kind of file are you using for a source?

You should hear something while processing, provided you don't have the offline processing enabled.

[fateman]

Yes, green light on.

I'm using a 16 bit 48000 khz stereo wav.

Offline processing is not enabled and I don't hear anything.

[fateman]

ok, I tried it again and this time did get files that contained the audio, but it didn't seem to do much. the files sound basically the same and one is blank, assuming that is the LFE.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by fateman
ok, I tried it again and this time did get files that contained the audio, but it didn't seem to do much. the files sound basically the same and one is blank, assuming that is the LFE.

Listening to one of the files, can give indeed the impression nothing changed. But....... load all of your 5 files into SF and you will see the differences.
Better..... make a DTS from them :-) and listen then !

grtz,

Eye of Horus

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Umma
Don't take offense at any questions, cuz sometimes the simplest thing is sometimes overlooked. I should know...done that many times...

Did you make sure the processing button on the was on and the light was green before you started processing?

What kind of file are you using for a source?

You should hear something while processing, provided you don't have the offline processing enabled.

And....... I always do the process without the out-connection to my soundcard ! I never hear anything.... on purpose !
After the whole process I burn a CDRW and go downstairs to my HTS and that's the first time I hear what I've been doing :D

Nothing better than a big surprise ;)

EoH

[fateman]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Listening to one of the files, can give indeed the impression nothing changed. But....... load all of your 5 files into SF and you will see the differences.
Better..... make a DTS from them :-) and listen then !

grtz,

Eye of Horus
what about the subwoofer? just add the center channel there when encoding or what?

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by kempfand
Just for your information:

I've created a few LCR-Upmix Bidule Groups, which you might find useful: LCR Upmix Bidules (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?threadid=70678)

Cheers,
Andreas

This also will go into test-mode !!

Within a few days, I will finalize my big comparison.
Accessible for everyone interested !

This is what I will do :

I took 10 pieces of different music and will process it with all available published methods.
(A quick count in my head : 10)
This will give 10*10 soundfiles.... That's too much with full songs, so from every song 2 minutes......

This must lead to a final conclusion which method is the best for a certain kind of music...


These are the titles I chose :

1. The Blue Danube - J. Strauss
A classic waltz with a lot of violins

2. When You Got A Friend - Peter Green
A blues song.

3. Mixed Emotions - The Rolling Stones
Uptempo rock.

4. Tainted Love - The Flying Pickets
An acapella song with clean voices

5. Unomathemba - Ladysmith Black Mambazo
Acapella with dark voices

6. Spente Le Stelle - Emma Shapplin
Opera voice on modern synths music.

7. Them heavy People - Kate Bush
A complete different voice !

8. The Eve Of War - Jeff Wayne
Rock with a lot of effects between left and right speakers

9. Oxygene 4 - Jean Michel Jarre
Synths

10. Hotel California - The Eagles
Softpop.

Of course it's easy to add more and more styles..... house, dance, hiphop, rap, big choirs...etc. etc.
I just took some titles from my catalog :)

I know it is an ambitious project and it will keep me from the streets for a few days. But I think this is the only way to go, now that the amount of different methods to get from 2.0 to 5.1 is getting out of hand..... :D

Remember.... from every song 2 minutes encoded with at least 10 different methods.......

Let's see which one gives the best results.....

I will yell here when it's ready and available for download in alt.binaries.sounds and alt.binaries.sounds.dts

Of course I'm open for suggestions the methods.
If there is any method nobody uses (anymore), I'll appreciate feedback, because that saves me quite some time !!

I also like to hear feedback on my choices of music...... (but please don't let this thread go into a general "I would chose another song : xxxxxx for song nr. xx" one !!!!!!!!!!)


grtz,

Eye of Horus

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by fateman
what about the subwoofer? just add the center channel there when encoding or what?

You have 5 files, no LFE ? Just leave it blank !
I chose for 5 mono files and no LFE, because it sounds better to let the receiver (or non dedicated subwoofer) handle the filtering. Also when people have an amplified LFE, it sometimes gives nasty side-effects (a lot of unwanted reverb and resonance).
(I have an amplified on my HTS and one between the 2 front-speakers on the PC. It is a big difference and I prefer the sound in 5.0 ! And if I remember correctly that's also the opinion of the Ambisonics experts .....)

Good luck and have fun !!

grtz,

EoH

[fateman]

alright, thanks man. i'll be interested to hear your results on that time consuming test you have coming up as well ;)

[Tantulus]

I just want to give a big thanks to everyone that has contributed bidules, testing etc. I have learned a lot and I am enjoying my albums as never before. Incidentally, I tried Kempfand's UJH to B layout and it resulted in the gain being too low. Is there a way to increase this in the Bidule. Otherwise I liked the result

[kempfand]

I tried Kempfand's UJH to B layout and it resulted in the gain being too low You can increase the Wet gain in SIR if things sounds still ok. I go up to -3dB sometimes.

Important (for this method):
- For the 3 instances of SIR, put the wet-gain at exactly the same values for all 3 of them (or else the sound-image is destroyed)
- Turn off the "Auto Gain"
- For the pulses used here, keep the "Dry Gain" off ("-oo dB", i.e. slider at the very bottom)


Is there a way to increase this in the Bidule ? Yes, you can add 3 instances of Gain (In Bidule: Palette -> Mixing -> Gain), and put them between Emigrator and 'Audio File Recorder'. As you have 6 speaker-channels, you need 3 of them, because Gain only has 2 in/out-pins.
Important: Put the gain-values (Amplitude) to exactly the same value for all 3 of them.


Otherwise I liked the result I agree the result is very good. Even better results can be achieved by using David Malham's Third Order VST Ambisonic Tools (http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/vst/vst3_ambisonics.html) . As confirmed by the experts and also my listening tests, every 2nd/3rd-order Ambisonic panning beats 1st order. If you want, I can post a small bidule for Pentagon-decode.

Cheers,
Andreas

[SallyDog]

Originally posted by kempfand
If you want, I can post a small bidule for Pentagon-decode.

Cheers,
Andreas


Please post :D

thanks
SallyDog

[kempfand]

I've uploaded a 3rd order bidule (incl. 2 screenshots) to the FTP (ftp://daphy.mine.nu/) (currently in /Incoming/3rd_Order/ ). Some remarks:

- I have set it up such that it decodes to Pentagon-rig.

- You'll need 2 VST's: BFDecFHH.dll & BFPanFHH.dll. They can be found on with Hochschule für Musik Winterthur Zürich VST Ambisonic Tools (http://www.dmalham.freeserve.co.uk/alpha/vst_ambisonics_alphas.html) in the York Plugins Windows Version (http://www.dmalham.freeserve.co.uk/alpha/v2yorkambisonic.zip) . Just copy the 2 dll's to your VST-directory.

- I have added gains for all 5 speakers. IMPORTANT: If you change the gain, change it to the same Amplitude for all 3 instances of Gain (or else the sound-image will not work).

- Some limited documentation is available with the old version of the VST's: Third Order VST Ambisonic Tools (http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/vst/vst3_ambisonics.html)

Good luck and happy testing,
Andreas

[daphy]

Hi Andreas,

those two VST-plugins are already uploaded on the FTP (since 230104 ;) ) and part of the plugins-complete-0400219.rar.

I would suggest to move the bidule to the ambisonic section?!?

CYA Daphy

[puzio]

Thank You Kempfand.

Can You tell me what is the channel mapping of the multichannel output? Please.

THX

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by puzio
Thank You Kempfand.

Can You tell me what is the channel mapping of the multichannel output? Please.

THX

Standard ! FL,FR,C,LFE,RL,RR

grtz,

Eye of Horus

[Umma]

I'm curious...with Minnetonka's Discwelder coming out soon, cheaply, will their be any application of these conversion methods to DVD-A? Will it sound any better, equal, whatever? I am planning on getting a DVD-A player, soon. Best Buy has one for $149...a Pioneer DVD player capable of all the surround modes.

(thrown in in retrospect)
I would imagine that we would encode UHJ to B, process it, then go back from B to a multichannel UHJ file. Then run it through the DVD-A program (Discwelder). Losslessly. DVD-A is supposed to be lossless, though it will hold dts and DD, and some video. Just thinkin' aloud, here...

I find it really interesting that, after the explosion of interest in conversion to dts and DD over here at this forum that companies such as Minnetonka are now hawking their wares to the home-user so the home user can upmix their music. :) NICE!

But they gotta come down on their prices some more!

[Van the man]

this looks great :)
Gonna try it out, but the emigrator link doesnt work :confused:
And how can I mux all the .wav 's back to one .wav file?

Any ideas?

Van

[Umma]

Originally posted by Van the man
this looks great :)
Gonna try it out, but the emigrator link doesnt work :confused:
And how can I mux all the .wav 's back to one .wav file?

Any ideas?

Van

You mean after Besweet? You need Surcode dts encoder or a Dolby Digital encoder to make either a dts/wav file or AC3 file.

You mean this (http://www.gerzonic.com/?rub=3) Emigrator link?

:)

[specise_8472]

Have just uploaded to the server under Ambiophonics/3rd_order two new vst's.

3_B-Pan is my version of the york bpanfhh 3rd order ambisonic encoder.
3rd_order is version 2 of my ambiosonic decoder that allows you to decode into either 1,2,3 order. 1 being the usual WXYZ, 2 adding the 2nd order UV and 3 adding 3rd order PQ.

To use the associated bidule, you will need to download my crosstalk plugin from the server under crosstalk.

As you will notice, the 3-b-pan is linked to the associated SIR settings. So whatever of my impulse files you use in SIR, just use the same settings in 3-b-pan. (only front at the moment)

But you can use the 3-b-pan as a standalone, jsut choose one of the settings to enable decode properly. The outputs are the same as bpanfhh ie: WXYZUVPQ.
And the inputs on 3rd order ambiophonic are LRWXYZUVPQ. Outputs are the same. Namely L,R,C,SL,SR with SC muxed into the two rear surrounds for DTSes use.
EDIT: NO LFE OUTPUT

Edit: If there is enouth interest, I can make a reverse VST that reverses existing 5.1 into 1st 2nd 3rd order files. The same way as my 1st order reverse VST.

[Umma]

Thanks. I will try the crosstalk plugin again. I couldn't get it to work the last time I tried.

I don't understand what you mean by the reverse VST. Just what are the benefits of a VST such as this? If I take a pre-existing, non-ambi/ambiophonic dts/DD 5.1 mix, run it through the reverse VST, it will calculate and assign the WXYZ calculations to a resulting multichannel file? And those WXY assignments can then be adjusted differently as the file is re-encoded back to a 5.1 dts or DD5.1?

I'm trying to relate to this in real-world terms. The majority of what I've fooled with lately are the live boots. Since the ambience is already there, using room impulses usually serves to muddle the lower-midranges and lows. Drives me nuts sometimes and I lose track of what I've tried and what I haven't tried. Room impulses work great with soundboard recordings, though. Maybe the WZYZ settings in a newly calculated, post-reverse VST file can adjust the ambient muddle that happens in a 5.1 upmix with live recordings? Am I making any sense?

I guess an experiment would be to take a file and do it the old way, i.e. combine the stereo for a mono center, split the left and right for FL, FR, and SR and SL...make a 5.1 file, reverse it into a 1,2,or 3 order file, adjust the new WXYZ assignments, re-encode. Would there be any benefits to doing this? Or maybe I'm missing a crucial concept, here? :confused:

[specise_8472]

Originally posted by Umma
Thanks. I will try the crosstalk plugin again. I couldn't get it to work the last time I tried.

I don't understand what you mean by the reverse VST. Just what are the benefits of a VST such as this? If I take a pre-existing, non-ambi/ambiophonic dts/DD 5.1 mix, run it through the reverse VST, it will calculate and assign the WXYZ calculations to a resulting multichannel file? And those WXY assignments can then be adjusted differently as the file is re-encoded back to a 5.1 dts or DD5.1?


I have had good results with this Reverse method. One of the best was Saving Private Ryan scene 2 where they storm the beach at Omaha. The original has good bullets whizzing around etc. After reversing then converting straight back into 5.1 from the WXYZ (no playing around), there seemed to be a distinct difference in the surrounds. If anything the overall effect should be slightly degraded from the original, but it still sounded better to me. The reason I wrote it in the first place is that sycho?? (I think) wanted it.


I'm trying to relate to this in real-world terms. The majority of what I've fooled with lately are the live boots. Since the ambience is already there, using room impulses usually serves to muddle the lower-midranges and lows. Drives me nuts sometimes and I lose track of what I've tried and what I haven't tried. Room impulses work great with soundboard recordings, though. Maybe the WZYZ settings in a newly calculated, post-reverse VST file can adjust the ambient muddle that happens in a 5.1 upmix with live recordings? Am I making any sense?


My crosstalk plugin uses my own special Impulses to 'spread' the soundfield out to the angles in them. And so my new 3-b-pan (I also have a straight b-pan)uses these angles to compute the Azimuth for Ambisonic encoding.


I guess an experiment would be to take a file and do it the old way, i.e. combine the stereo for a mono center, split the left and right for FL, FR, and SR and SL...make a 5.1 file, reverse it into a 1,2,or 3 order file, adjust the new WXYZ assignments, re-encode. Would there be any benefits to doing this? Or maybe I'm missing a crucial concept, here? :confused:
This method may have merits. Try it and tell us the results.