GUIDE: Stereo to 5-Channel Surround [Archive] - Page 13

ursamtl

22nd June 2004, 14:28

Originally posted by DSP8000
@ursamtl,

From the kxProject FAQ
"Audigy2 ZS series aren't fully supported at the moment, due to the fact that we do not have an Audigy2 ZS card for testing. However, as soon as we have enough money to buy one, support will be implemented."
I'm happy with the Creative drivers and my PC setup so there's no need to change anything, maybe if they have enough good features in their drivers i'll give it a go.

Yes, I had read that too, but then I asked other users on their forum. Apparently, the drivers work fine. The only thing that's not yet implemented is 24/96. There is talk that this may be implemented in the next version of kX due out any day. The biggest thing I like about the kX drivers (other than the fact it gives me 5ms-latency ASIO on an SB Live) is that their DSP applet is very similar to Plogue Bidule in that one can create custom routings, hook-ups, etc., graphically and use a variety of plug-ins for surround, effects, etc., all accessing the card's DSP. With the right ASIO routings, you can also record these into a file using bidule. Their surrounder plugin is actually another interesting option for upmixing in that it provides a nice surround effect using the card's DSP (which is an EMU chip). Unfortunately, I haven't been able to record to bidule because of a bug in my particular model of Live (it's only a cheap OEM version) that restricts the number of ASIO recording channels . this does not occur on the Audigy1/2 or other Lives. I have been able to record from its output in Cubase on all six channels and it sounded great. It just wasn't as practical as in bidule, where one can link the playback and recording of file player and recorder objects.

Anyway, as I've said on the kX forum, the combination of Plogue bidule and the kX drivers is absolute heaven if someone likes to play around with this stuff.

Ciao
Steve.

DSP8000

22nd June 2004, 14:35

"Their surrounder plugin is actually another interesting option for upmixing in that it provides a nice surround effect using the card's DSP (which is an EMU chip)"

Hmmm, interesting...

ursamtl

22nd June 2004, 14:36

Originally posted by davidv@plogue
About that Audigy/live multiple I/O.
Ive got some of those cards and never managed to ouput multiple channels
with them, whatever the settings or kx/official drivers. If anyone knows
how, please tell me :)

Hi David,

First thanks for a wonderful program! Bidule is truly amazing in its flexibility.

As for the Audigy/live multiple I/O thing, I do it all the time without problems. I did notice that you have to have the sample rate set the same in both bidule and the kX ASIO Control Panel. Plus, at 48k, there is one kX duplex I/O Audio Device. Since the kX driver does not support recording at 44.1k, there is only one kX ASIO output device. If you look back through the forum, I posted a pic of this. Of course, you need to have the proper routings set up in the kX DSP applet as well. I'm at work now, but once I'm home, I'll PM you with routing details.

To sum it up, multichannel ASIO output using an Audigy/Live card is possible. You can even output via SPDIF to the digital inputs of a surround receiver.

By the way, [semi-offtopic mode on] have you ever thought of implementing DirectX plugin support in bidule? I do use a free rack from SpinAudio that seems to do this well, I'm just curious about this. There are some really good DX effects out there.[semi-offtopic mode off]

Regards,
Steve.

kempfand

22nd June 2004, 14:46

Originally posted by ursamtl Another important point that's been made here several times is to convert the input wave files to 32-bit floating point format before the input
...
If you don't have a commercial program to do this, I've found an excellent freeware DOS utility that converts a file quickly. It's available from the Telecommunications & Signal Processing Laboratory at McGill University here in Montreal and is called CopyAudio. Just adding here another option: Voxengo's r8brain (http://www.voxengo.com/r8brain/)

According to Aleksey (the author of r8brain), the tools uses sinc interpolation algorithms. Quality setting selects the number of control points (there can be up to 1000 control points, on Very High quality setting).

http://www.voxengo.com/r8brain/screenshot.jpg

with excellent features:- Freeware
- Reads PCM WAV files of bit depths 8, 16, 24, 32 and 64
- 32 and 64 bit files can be in IEEE floating sample format
- Mono and stereo file support
- Virtually any input and output sample rate
- Batch processing
- Writes 8, 16 and 24 bit PCM WAV files and 32 bit IEEE WAV files
- Reusable royalty-free converter DLL with explained API Think EoH mentioned this nice toy in the first place somewhere in the Forum here, and I've also very good statements on it (in terms of quality) from audio pros.

Originally posted by ursamtl ...
I think dithering the outputs makes sense as one is sure that proper dithering will be done instead of hoping it's done by Surcode or whatever AC3 encoder one uses. What are your thoughts on this?

Nearly all statements from audio pros I have been reading so for strongly recommend dithering, and therefore we indtroduced it with the bidules. I also rememebr having read something about what you mentione for SurCode (dithering, truncation, or leaving things at 32 bit), but I was not able to find the link again.
Some tests done by EoH and myself have lead us to believe that feeding 32 bit into SurCode gives slightly better results as compared to feeding (mda-) dithered 16 bit into SurCode. This still leaves two options: a) SurCode doing a decent dithering on 32 bit input, or b) mda_dither doing a bad job. Unfortunately, there are only a couple of other freeware dithering VST's, so limited choice. Finally, there also is ssrc.exe, which does an excellent job but only on 24 bit (no 32 bit input). In summary: work in progress.

Regards,

Andreas

ursamtl

22nd June 2004, 14:57

Originally posted by kempfand
Just adding here another option: Voxengo's r8brain (http://www.voxengo.com/r8brain/)

According to Aleksey (the author of r8brain), the tools uses sinc interpolation algorithms. Quality setting selects the number of control points (there can be up to 1000 control points, on Very High quality setting).

Yes, I've tried it. The only problem I have is that if I just want to change a file from 16- to 32-bit without changing the sample rate, it won't work. It seems to require a change to 48 if the input is in 44.1k. If I'm doing a surround CD, I don't want to change to 48 then back to 44.1.

Re the dither, I haven't had time to investigate the mda dither settings. Are they explained somewhere? Perhaps this will change the results.

Steve.

davidv@plogue

22nd June 2004, 15:28

Originally posted by ursamtl
Hi David,
First thanks for a wonderful program! Bidule is truly amazing in its flexibility.

Hey thanx!

Originally posted by ursamtl
Hi David,
If you look back through the forum, I posted a pic of this. Of course, you need to have the proper routings set up in the kX DSP applet as well. I'm at work now, but once I'm home, I'll PM you with routing details.

Yes the routing details of the kx mixer is what is most intersting.
Idd post them permanently on plogue.com

Originally posted by ursamtl
Hi David,
By the way, [semi-offtopic mode on] have you ever thought of implementing DirectX plugin support in bidule? I do use a free rack from SpinAudio that seems to do this well, I'm just curious about this. There are some really good DX effects out there.[semi-offtopic mode off]

The thought has crossed our minds more than once.
But really its a matter of priorities. The amount of work required (especially for only one platform)
vs the amount of plugins that are DX only. - We had to implement AU plugins on OSX because many plugins went out AU only - where as on PC, a company shoots itself in the feet if it only does DX/DXis.

And as you say theres the SpinAudio trick, even though its not the most stable solution, from my experience.

ursamtl

22nd June 2004, 18:38

Originally posted by kempfand
Finally, there also is ssrc.exe, which does an excellent job but only on 24 bit (no 32 bit input).Actually I recall reading somewhere that reducing from 32 to 24 bits doesn't really need dithering because the difference would be inaudible, whereas going from 24 to 16 bits definitely benefits from dithering. Therefore converting to 24 bits first might be an option.

Anyway, I'm glad my bringing up dithering in the forum prompted you to add the mda plug-in as it brings the dithering issue back up. We might not have found out from David that we may not really need to convert to 32-bit files before loading a file into a bidule. That's definitely a time-saver. The McGill audio utilities package I mentioned above has a file analyser tool with it so perhaps I'll see if this somehow might compare different 32-bit files in a testing environment. I know there is definitely a quality difference when I listen to 32-bit files outside of bidule, but that could be related to issues with my Soundblaster Live.

Steve.

Eye of Horus

22nd June 2004, 20:37

Originally posted by davidv@plogue
<snip>
Im presonally using a Terratec EWS88MT (8in/8out) card with great ASIO drivers that do buffer size mathching bidule's 512,256,128 and even 64.
So no complaints here.

Continue on the great group making (ive tried one or two)!!
;)

Cheers

Hi David !

I see you use the same soundcard as I do, so perhaps you can help me with a problem I have with it in combination with Bidule.
In the control panel I select ASIO.
I connect the output in Bidule, but whatever I try, I cannot get any output.
Using the SPDIF or the MS soundmapper gives output on 2 channels.

Can you advice me or show your settings ?

TIA !!

kind regards,

EoH

davidv@plogue

22nd June 2004, 20:45

Originally posted by Eye of Horus

Using the SPDIF or the MS soundmapper gives output on 2 channels.
Can you advice me or show your settings ?

EoH

Thats odd, ive used the Terratec multichannel ASIO driver for 3 years
whitout a hitch. But ive never tried the SPDIF I/O ever.
On the 8 analog chans its flawless.

I use 256 buffer sizes in the terratec control pannel. (same thing in bidule) so im assured of perfect timings.
Ive also tried all combinations of samplerates in bidule (from 8 to 96Khz) without probs too.
Does your 4x2 MME outputs work?

kempfand

22nd June 2004, 23:46

Originally posted by ursamtl
Anyway, I'm glad my bringing up dithering in the forum prompted you to add the mda plug-in as it brings the dithering issue back up. As a matter of fact, the discussion if and how to dither already started before it was re-vived here:

- BeSweet/BeSplit : 24 bit Question (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76679&)

- 24 bit (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74315)

and was actually triggered for me by reading advice a couple of years back:

- Best way to downsample ? (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40157)

Originally posted by ursamtl
We might not have found out from David that we may not really need to convert to 32-bit files before loading a file into a bidule. That's definitely a time-saver. EoH and myslef did a few listening test (not published): (a) feeding 16 bit, and (b) feeding upconverted 32 bit (CoolEdit method) in a bidule, then saving both as 32 bit 6-ch wav, demuxing, and SurCoding, and we felt there was a slight audible difference in quality. This seems to confirm David's remark that there are different algorithms.

I also remember some technical elaboration from Farina on why to carefully convert 16 bit source to 32 bit, but I frankly have to dig to find the reference (or re-type from my notes).

Originally posted by ursamtl
The only problem I have is that if I just want to change a file from 16- to 32-bit without changing the sample rate, it won't work. It seems to require a change to 48 if the input is in 44.1k. Good catch ! I just tried the tool again and can confirm this.

Andreas

ursamtl

23rd June 2004, 00:55

Originally posted by davidv@plogue
Yes the routing details of the kx mixer is what is most intersting.
Idd post them permanently on plogue.comHi David,

Rather PM you as I offered this afternoon, I decided to post this in the forum. I know from messages I've received that there are others who follow the forum and are interested in kX, so rather than repeat, I'll just post the basics here. For those with no interest in this, go to the next message. :)

[Ursa puts on his historian hat for the benefit of the curious]First, let me say that there are some really good guides on the www.kxproject.com web site and in their forums. You can also read there about how these drivers came about as free alternatives to the official Creative ones. The latter have tended to be optimized and focused on gamers and lately DVD playback, whereas the kX drivers were designed for serious music recording and playback.

Ok, so enough history. To put it simply, if you have a Live or Audigy soundcard, kX rocks! [Hat removed]:)

David, I don't know how much you played around with the kX DSP applet (small button at the bottom left of the Mixer or right click on the kX icon in the system tray). It allows hookups something like bidule, although not quite as developed (you can't click on "wires" to delete or move them, only right click on connection ends and choose from the menu).
[list=1]
The default kX routing as installed tries to do too much so the best thing to do is right click on the DSP background and choose "Clear DSP." (If you want to go back to the default layout, you can always choose Reinitialize DSP).

You're now going to add some objects and connect them. To identify the pins, just move your mouse over them to see the pin's label.

Right click and choose Add Effect / Plugin > Default > FXBus. It's best to place this in the left left area of the DSP applet window.

An FXBus represents input signals from inside the PC. Most importantly for use with bidule, FXBus represents the 16 ASIO channels you get as output from bidule (these channels are numbered 0-15). For example, in the following pic, the second output pin of Preservation 5x3 is connected to the fifth kX ASIO (out) input pin, which corresponds to ASIO channel 4. In the kX DSP, the same signal will appear on the fifth output pin from the top of the object, which is FXBus4.
http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/kxASIOOut.gif

Right click and choose Add Effect / Plugin > Default > prolog. Place this under the FXBus on the left part of the window. A prolog object represents input signals from outside the PC, such as AC97 for signals coming from the soundcard's line in or microphone jacks.

Right click and choose Add Effect / Plugin > Default > epilog. Place this to the right of the other two objects. The top 14 pins on an epilog object represent the output signals from the card, both analog and digital. The fifteenth and sixteenth pins represent the left and right recording inputs. The remaining pins represent the 16 ASIO input channels (for recording at 48k sample rates).

Finally, between FXBus and epilog, right click and choose Add Effect / Plugin > Basic > Stereo Mix. This will provide two stereo input paths for both the default 2-channel signals from Windows apps and the front left and right of the 5.1 mix.

Important! Be sure to double-lick the Stereo Mix object and move both sliders all the way to the right!

Connect the two output pins on the right of the Stereo Mix object to the top two pins on epilog.

Connect FXBus0 & 1 to the top two left pins on Stereo Mix. This is your standard Windows stereo feed.

The default FXBus outputs for 5.1 are FXBus4-9. Although you can reconfigure to whatever order you want, we'll go with these. Connect them as in the diagram below to:

epilog out0 - Analog Front Left
epilog out1 - Analog Front Left
epilog out2 -
epilog out3 -
epilog out4 -
epilog out5 -
epilog out6 -
epilog out7 -
epilog out8 - Analog Rear LEft
epilog out9 - Analog Rear Right
epilog out10 - Analog Center
epilog out11 - Analog Subwoofer
(these last two may display different numbers when you mouse over them but the connection will be clearly identified).

Note that the following pic is just a portion of the screen to save download bandwidth time.
http://stevethomson.ca/audio/guides/kXDSP.gif

If you plan to use line-in or a microphone, connect the top two pins on prlog to the 15th and 16th pins on epilog (RecL and RecR).

Now click the diskette icon on the right of the window and save your configuration.[/list=1]

As for the kX Mixer, you can use play around with the levels there to see what they do.

Basically, this should work. It's not exactly the way I have my system hooked up because I route my subwoofer and center to both fronts with -3dB on each to balance their volume. I've also redone my FXBus internal routings (right click and choose Tweak) so that my ASIO outs are the first six channels. This way, in bidule I can easily right-click and replace the kX ASIO out device with a 6-channel Audio Recorder (or vice versa) and not have to reconnect anything.

Note that this applies to analog connections only. I haven't even begun to explore the digital outs since my 5.1 receiver is in a room not close to my PC.

I hope this helps. Sorry for the length of the message, but this is such a useful tool for someone with a Live or Audigy who wants to get the most out of any of these upmixing bidules, that I thought it useful to share in this thread.

Regards,
Steve.

Moderator Edit: Fixed image links as per ursamtl's request

ursamtl

23rd June 2004, 03:15

Originally posted by kempfand
As a matter of fact, the discussion if and how to dither already started before it was re-vived here:

- BeSweet/BeSplit : 24 bit Question (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76679&)

- 24 bit (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74315)

and was actually triggered for me by reading advice a couple of years back:

- Best way to downsample ? (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40157)
Andreas, before I wrote my above statement, I searched the forum for "dither" and confirmed that I was the first in this thread to bring it up, in terms of discussing the need for it when converting back to 16 bits. I wasn't at all looking for "brownie points" or for attention, but in fact I was trying to subtly make a point. You wrote:

Nearly all statements from audio pros I have been reading so for strongly recommend dithering, and therefore we indtroduced it with the bidules.
This implies that you got the idea from reading and then directly decided to implement it. There's no mention that we already discussed this in the forum after I brought it up. Again, I don't want a pat on the back, I'd be writing this right now just the same way if someone else had brought it up, but I do see this as a pattern. Whenever there's a new bidule, instead of just saying here it is, there's a preambule about all the "hard work" that's gone into it. What about all the others who develop guides and bidules? Daphy, for example, makes everyone feel welcome and equally important by immediately putting their work on his forum. His enthusiasm for the joy of the technology is evident. None of them seem to need to talk about all their hard work. What really shocked me was when I clicked on the link in the the following post to this very thread:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=509574#post509574

and then saw a guide for SAD5.1 bidule that states: "The hard work and hours of testing and trying is a co-operation of Kempfand and Eye of Horus." I searched the guide for mention of the guy who came up with the original concept behind SAD5.1, Kpex, but I didn't see any mention of him whatsoever! Even in the version of the guide posted on EoH's web site, Kpex is mentioned simply as one of several contributers. I'm sorry but this really doesn't seem fair. Yes, I know you might have "improved" on his method as stated in the thread by doing it in a bidule and converting to 32-bits, but at least give the guy credit for having come up with the initial concept!

Anyway, I'm not trying to make a major issue out of this, I just think it's about time someone pointed it out. I'm sure you don't intend to make others feel slighted. To be fair, Andreas, you have gone out of your way a couple of times to praise everyone who contributes, but these little statements counteract that. Yes EoH started this thread. Yes, as I wrote last night, he is to be congratuled for having done so. However, the thread has evolved into a mini-forum on upmixing and as such everyone who contributes should be recognized for their "hard work" and when someone's idea is used, it's nice to at least make a gesture acknowledging that fact. It belongs to all of us now, so I think if we can get rid of all this unpleasantness and implied hierachy of importance, things would go better. So let's share ideas with a little more respect.

Regards,
Steve.

Umma

23rd June 2004, 06:14

It belongs to all of us now, so I think if we can get rid of all this unpleasantness and implied hierachy of importance, things would go better. So let's share ideas with a little more respect.

Dude, YOU are the one that I've seen the most rudeness and disrespect from. Despite your disclaimers that you mean no offense YOU come across as the bullying Type-A personality. EoH and Andreas's style of presentation and support have never struck me negatively as you are so quick to try and paint. To me, YOU come across, and have been coming across vaingloriously as a petulant bully in a thread of exploration and discovery that has basically been going on for well over a year, now.

If you could just present your findings/experiments/experiences without going off on a soliloquy of pontification this thread will retain its focus and stay on path. Your complaints about them sound to me as if you're describing yourself.

Like it or not, too many chiefs make for many confused indians and EoH and Kempfand have done a superb job of keeping this thread that they began on task.

This thread does NOT belong "to all of us now." Readers and experimenters are priviledged to have had these two share their mindgardens with the world here at Doom9, and they are beyond reproach in their attitude, graciousness, inventiveness, and outright friendliness.

Your discussion of techniques are interesting, but to paraphrase Bill Cosby, a steak dinner served on the lid of a garbage pail makes a wonderful meal very unappetizing.

Eye of Horus

23rd June 2004, 10:35

When Kempfand and me were busy with the last 3 bidules, we discussed the need to keep the outcoming 6 channel file below the 2 GB border, to avoid too many problems with people who use FAT32 as filesystem.
We were also discussing 16 bit vs 24 bit and the need to normalize afterwards every channel .
We came to the conclusion that the outcoming file in 16 bits would be the most practical and introduced MDA's dither into the biduile.
We never discussed it with an eye on the past here at the forum.
The only reason was what I wrote above. It was absolutely not a matter of reading here and then use the advice to dither. We never discussed that !! [PERIOD !]

For those not technical I will also try to explain the usage of our latest voice-center bidule and what you can expect and it's shortcomings.

The bidule was made with the intention to use a voice only channel in the Center speaker. When you use music with effects that float from left to right (Pink Floyd, Tangerine Dream, Vangelis, Jean Michel Jarre, Kitaro, Alan Parsons Project to name a few), don't use this bidule. Normally the sound that floats, has a higher frequency than the voice of the singer. With the bidule, it tries to float from left to right, but it will not go through the Center. In the Center it's filtered out and thus you get a strange effect. Sonething like a hole in the middle !
The ideal music for this bidule is simpler music with no floating effects form left to right, but nevertheless with a good stereo effect and a singer in the middle. When you play the stereo and would disconnect the left speaker, you shouldn't hear anything from the left speaker except the voice, in the right speaker and vice versa.
Music that suits this is soft rock or a singer with only a few instruments and not too much percussion. On this kind of music the bidule can give excellent results. (Beatles, Country, Eagles...that kind of music).

When you chose a PF song to try it, you will get disappointed.
When you use the right song for the right bidule, you will get satisfying results. Perhaps with some finetuning of the settings of the Voxengo Stereo Touch and the gains, you can even improve.
When you don't get the result you want, drop us a line and perhaps we can advice on getting better results or............ use another bidule for the song you were trying ! The combination of the right song and the right bidule is what does the trick !!

Despite all negativism dropped here, I recall my original statement : Don't go by what others think or by theory, use your own ears. They are the best judges !
Try it and if you don't like the result, try it with another song !
We didn't work for more than 2 months on these bidules to publish something that doesn't work or give bad results only !
Kempfand and I work together for more than a year now and almost daily , we have new ideas and discuss them. Yes, sometimes we come up with an idea anyone else did too before. That's inevitable !
But ... we always make sure the endproduct that we publish here, is good. I think we build up a positive name the last years here, and we try to keep up with that by publishing only the good "inventions" and not the bad ones.
(as a matter of fact : only 3 out of 20 or so, finally made it !)

That someone is constantly trying to discredit our efforts, says more about that person than about us.

kind regards,

EoH

Eye of Horus

23rd June 2004, 10:51

Originally posted by ursamtl
so I think if we can get rid of all this unpleasantness and implied hierachy of importance, things would go better. So let's share ideas with a little more respect.

Regards,
Steve.

When do you start ??

EoH

Shayne

23rd June 2004, 12:27

Originally posted by davidv@plogue
Hello all

About that Audigy/live multiple I/O.

Ive got some of those cards and never managed to ouput multiple channels with them, whatever the settings or kx/official drivers. If anyone knowshow, please tell me :)

Continue on the great group making (ive tried one or two)!!
;)

Cheers
I too have never found sound blaster worth their money. Expensive for absolutely no reason but to give you headaches. I currently use the cheap Hercules fortissimo 7.1 card and pass thru is smooth and easy here.

Thanks for the proggy.

Peace

ursamtl

23rd June 2004, 13:03

Originally posted by Umma
Like it or not, too many chiefs make for many confused indians and EoH and Kempfand have done a superb job of keeping this thread that they began on task.

This thread does NOT belong "to all of us now." Readers and experimenters are priviledged to have had these two share their mindgardens with the world here at Doom9, and they are beyond reproach in their attitude, graciousness, inventiveness, and outright friendliness.

Yes it's indeed a "superb job" to take someone else's ideas, modify them and then claim their your own without giving credit to the person who came up with the idea. That's very "gracious", very "inventive" and extremely "friendly."

If you read varous threads in this forum, you will see what someone else pointed out to me recently, the pattern is very predictable, any criticism--no matter how legitimate--is handled badly and the person criticizing is contantly accused of twisting words.

Does this thread exist for the purpose of someone to feed his own ego by constantly boasting and congratulating himself on his hard work and then publishing something that sounds like a cheap 20-year-old effect box? Or does it exist to share knowledge?

Last time I checked, it was a forum and as such, everyone who contributes to it has a share in it. Call me a bully if you want, I just don't believe in sitting back and letting hypocrisy go unmentioned.

ursamtl

23rd June 2004, 13:12

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
When do you start ??

EoH
As soon as I see you start to respect others and give others credit for their work instead of claiming it is your own.

As soon as you stop reacting negatively to the smallest criticisms and accusing anyone who does criticize you of twisting words. Just because I dared to criticize your "Ambisonics" method, you've been reacting negatively to every single statement I've made. Even when in the beginning you were at least pretending to be pleasant with me, I detected a sarcastic tone throughout your postings to me.

As soon as you stop rambling constantly about how hard you work and just simply present the work and let it speak for itself, just as everyone else who contributed bidules and files to this forum has done. I didn't see species 8472, desertrat, me, or any of the other contributors doing this. We simply posted our stuff. Again I repeat what I said yesterday, why not adopt the same approach as Daphy and Andy? Treat this as an interesting experience and put everyone on an equal footing. Just because you started a thread on upmixing to surround sound doesn't mean you invented it or that we should pay you some sort of monthly hommage or worship. Does this thread exist for you or for all of us?

ursamtl

23rd June 2004, 13:22

Originally posted by Shayne
I too have never found sound blaster worth their money. Expensive for absolutely no reason but to give you headaches. I currently use the cheap Hercules fortissimo 7.1 card and pass thru is smooth and easy here.

Thanks for the proggy.

Peace
How have you found the fortissimo's analog performance? I ask this because later this year I'm upgrading my PC and that's one of the cards I'm considering. However, their web site doesn't seem very informative. Does it have a multichannel ASIO driver? This is the most important to me as I interface MIDI keyboards and guitar with my PC and I need low latency for recording and playback. Also, does it show up in a bidule as a multichannel ASIO out? (see my post above about routing the kX driver for a pic. Other than the kX drivers another thing that's making me lean towards the Audigy 2 Zs Pro is the breakout box.

I'll eventually be doing passthrough as well, but for working with these bidules, I like having good analog performance (although digital speakers might be an option too :).

Regards,
Steve.

Eye of Horus

23rd June 2004, 17:04

Originally posted by ursamtl

As soon as I see you start to respect others and give others credit for their work instead of claiming it is your own.

As soon as you stop reacting negatively to the smallest criticisms and accusing anyone who does criticize you of twisting words. Just because I dared to criticize your "Ambisonics" method, you've been reacting negatively to every single statement I've made. Even when in the beginning you were at least pretending to be pleasant with me, I detected a sarcastic tone throughout your postings to me.

As soon as you stop rambling constantly about how hard you work and just simply present the work and let it speak for itself, just as everyone else who contributed bidules and files to this forum has done. I didn't see species 8472, desertrat, me, or any of the other contributors doing this. We simply posted our stuff. Again I repeat what I said yesterday, why not adopt the same approach as Daphy and Andy? Treat this as an interesting experience and put everyone on an equal footing. Just because you started a thread on upmixing to surround sound doesn't mean you invented it or that we should pay you some sort of monthly hommage or worship. Does this thread exist for you or for all of us?

Whatever ! PLONK !!

EoH

MC24 Geeek

23rd June 2004, 18:37

Hi I have followed you instruction, but when it comes to using Besweet it does not recognise the wav file. Can you help in any way or am i doing something wronge.
Cheers
Gareth

Eye of Horus

23rd June 2004, 19:36

Originally posted by MC24 Geeek
Hi I have followed you instruction, but when it comes to using Besweet it does not recognise the wav file. Can you help in any way or am i doing something wronge.
Cheers
Gareth

Hi Gareth,

Do you have the correct settings in Plogue's Bidule ?
Go to the "edit" menu, chose "preferences",
goto Disk I/O and make sure that "use WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE" is set to "never" !
Set it to another value and Besweet doesn't recognize the WAV !

I hope this works for you !

kind regards,

EoH

@ndy

23rd June 2004, 20:02

Hello guys,
since yesterday i have a new ISP with a faster connection.
Solved also today a problem with our dynamic IP.

Have fun and keep in mind that we have three sources:

needful things #1 (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org)

needfulthings #2 (http://www.freewebtown.com/andiz)

and with upload possibility:

ftp- server (ftp://daphy.mine.nu/incoming/)

Keep surrounding

Yours
@ndy

kempfand

23rd June 2004, 23:29

Just saw that the announced and long-awaited 64-bit version of Emigrator was released: Emigrator pro64 (http://www.gerzonic.net/?prod=25&rub=2)

Emigrator pro64 is basically the same as Emigrator, but there is one big difference: it uses 64 bit resolution for the decoding and equations. 64 bit resolution improves the audiophile quality many times, because it does not suffer from floating point round off errors (introducing audible / perceptable artifacts to the digital audio signal). The resolution of the decoding equations in Emigrator pro64 is also many times finer.
Please note that this is not freeware (the author asks for $19, very reasonable in my personal opinion). If you really like Ambisonics, I recommend and encourage you to consider this. For the avoidance of any doubts: I have no special relationship to Gerzonic, but the 64 bit decoding precision will make a noticeable difference (a bit as if you feed 32 bit vs. 16 bit to VST processing tools such as bidule).

Anyhow ... just meant as info.

Andreas

ursamtl

23rd June 2004, 23:40

Originally posted by kempfand
@ Steve: Thanks for your feedback (BTW having the same experience here that running things through the ASIO gives a good anticipation on how it will come out on the big 5.1 system). Andreas,

I've now tested all the groups and bidules from the Gerzon_1997 files you uploaded and so far everything confirms my earlier statement, the Preservation_5_Speaker_v2_REC_.bidule definitely stands out as providing an accurate professional sounding mix, provided the rears are backed off a bit. The others sound similar although not as good to my ears. Actually the Preservation_5_Speaker_v1_REC_.bidule is a bit more balanced in terms of the rear levels, but for some reason I haven't yet nailed down, v2 just seems to sound better.

So, now the next step comes up. I'm sure you're familiar with plugins and progs such as Ambisone, the Spinaudio panners, etc. Perhaps you're also familiar with 3D positional audio. Have you seen anything around on the net concerning this? What would be very cool is to be able to encode some sort of vertical information into a 5.1 system. I know that without speakers mounted above, the reproduction is not going to be possible. I also know that although Ambisonics can carry vertical information, if it's recorded in the first place. However, sound card DSPs have no reached the point where they can produce nearly believable vertical sound, so the question is how do we implement it? If a program such as Ambisone can make sound appear to come from the back even from stereo speakers, surely it should be possible to make sound appear to come from above in a 5.1 system. The same goes for all those two-channel stereo TVs out there with "Virtual surround." I know mine sounds uncanny sometimes with sounds seeming to come from behind and several meters away from the TV (and no, no drugs were involved ;). Since a 5.1 mix gives us the horizontal information only, the missing ambience from over the head would be very cool if somehow synthesized.

Anybody?

MC24 Geeek

24th June 2004, 00:11

Hi

Thanks for the reply, I have tried what you said but still have no joy. Here is the error log i get.

Error 58: Error : Unknown Input-File Format : "c:\Agility DVD Files Encore\test.wav".
Quiting...
[00:00:00:000] Conversion Completed !
Logging ends : 06/24/04 , 00:07:55.

Sorry to be a pain but i am very new to all this.
Cheers
Gareth

kempfand

24th June 2004, 00:23

Steve,

I can only give some general information to your question.

Ambisone: It's a bit unclear as to what they really do, and they don't disclose anything. I think you better look at at WaveArt's WaveSurroundA VST doing similar things but much better documented and coming from someone with a very prooved track-record (Bill Gardiner).

SpinAudio: Uses XTC (cross-talk concellation). Basically the same topic as the Stereo Dipole I published erlier in this thred (using filters made available by Farina) as well as the XTC VST (including custom-made filter) by Species. SpinAudio's 3D Panner Studio has excellent help files.

For general introduction, see: ISVR Stereo Dipole (http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/vap/html/sd.html) as well as the related demo WAV files (but you need the closely spaced speakers for the demo to work coorectly).

On howto implement vertical decoding, see Miller's papers (http://www.filmaker.com/papers.htm, with the i, j, k decodings) as well as the VST's published by "Species" here (IMHO, they are excellent, but that's my personal taste).

Regarding "missing ambience from over the head would be very cool if somehow synthesized": I had a very similar thought and once called it "virtual Z restorer/panner" (meaning that Z/horizontal could be created from WXY, even when 'just' using artificall algorithms). That would be really cool indeed.

On howto use one speaker of current ITU-5.1 sytems for vertical informatation (i.e. one of the 5-6 speakers used for decoding vertical data), I just know that Farina, Malham, and others are aware of the the need for more research on this, and that there are efforts on this front, but this is very early work-in-progress and we have to take it as 'teaser' of what to expect over the next 12-24 months.

Sorry for the limited answer (have to leave for a ahort business travel) but hope this helps.

Andreas

Shayne

24th June 2004, 01:32

Originally posted by kempfand
Just saw that the announced and long-awaited 64-bit version of Emigrator

Please note that this is not freeware ....

Anyhow ... just meant as info.

Andreas
Funny not even a trial? Would need a trial to get 20 out of me im such a cheap #!?%

Anyway EOH has me tickled pink getting my tunes rocken like they are now .... Thankz.

Maybe you can up load the ftp a sample 32 vs. 64 (same clip) so we can hear the diff.

Peace

daphy

24th June 2004, 06:32

@MC24 Geeek
the error 58 is already solved a couple weeks ago ( look here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77271)) I laid a text file (important.txt) on needfulthings ->'plogue' which contains kempfand´s solution! ;)

ursamtl

25th June 2004, 13:07

Originally posted by kempfand
Steve,

I can only give some general information to your question.

Ambisone: It's a bit unclear as to what they really do, and they don't disclose anything. I think you better look at at WaveArt's WaveSurroundA VST doing similar things but much better documented and coming from someone with a very prooved track-record (Bill Gardiner).

SpinAudio: Uses XTC (cross-talk concellation). Basically the same topic as the Stereo Dipole I published erlier in this thred (using filters made available by Farina) as well as the XTC VST (including custom-made filter) by Species. SpinAudio's 3D Panner Studio has excellent help files.

For general introduction, see: ISVR Stereo Dipole (http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/vap/html/sd.html) as well as the related demo WAV files (but you need the closely spaced speakers for the demo to work coorectly).

On howto implement vertical decoding, see Miller's papers (http://www.filmaker.com/papers.htm, with the i, j, k decodings) as well as the VST's published by "Species" here (IMHO, they are excellent, but that's my personal taste).

Regarding "missing ambience from over the head would be very cool if somehow synthesized": I had a very similar thought and once called it "virtual Z restorer/panner" (meaning that Z/horizontal could be created from WXY, even when 'just' using artificall algorithms). That would be really cool indeed.

On howto use one speaker of current ITU-5.1 sytems for vertical informatation (i.e. one of the 5-6 speakers used for decoding vertical data), I just know that Farina, Malham, and others are aware of the the need for more research on this, and that there are efforts on this front, but this is very early work-in-progress and we have to take it as 'teaser' of what to expect over the next 12-24 months.

Sorry for the limited answer (have to leave for a ahort business travel) but hope this helps.

Andreas Thanks for your answers, Andreas. Actually, I've tried Ambisone, Wavesurround, and the Spin Audio stuff. Personally I've found that the Ambisone gives the most realistic sounding horizontal directionality. It does have an elevation setting, but this doesn't seem to accomplish very much. If one closes his eyes and concentrates, there is some sense of difference among the various elevation levels, but how much of it is real and how much is sort of created by the power of "suggestion" or expectation? What I mean by that is, if one expects the sound to give a sense of vertical space, does he or she "fill in" missing psychoacoustic information, or is it actually there?

I still would love to get my hands on whatever the H2O team used for a 2-channel sound file that played during one of their install routines I once tried. It gave an incredibly realistic impression of water bubbling from the front in stereo and then out from the center over the listener's head. It was quite astounding in its realism.

I'm also wondering about Maven 3D Pro. This is a program that looks quite impressive, handles multichannel files, etc., but no one seems to talk about it on here or on any of the other sound forums. I tried the demo once but I didn't have the time to master it to the point where I could do much with it before it expired.

Thanks for the tips concerning Species 8472's VSTs. I'd downloaded them and tried to do something, but the center pages of this thread can tend to be a complete blur. Everyone was uploading bidules and VSTs around the same time and the details on each method didn't seem to get thoroughly discussed.

As for the Ambisonic decoding, I've tried playing around with some stuff but, while I get some interesting horizontal effects--especially when boosting the Y channel width info as in UpMix Studio-- I still haven't had much success with anything vertical. The same old problem arises, trying to apply Ambisonic encoding and decoding to sonic material that was not recorded for Ambisonics. The information just isn't there, so one must--as you said--apply artifical algorithms.

With the right HRTF processing some sense of vertical space should be possible. Or, perhaps some impulse responses with height info could be used to create b-format files with the Z info.

Have a good weekend,
Steve.

ursamtl

25th June 2004, 13:40

As I mentioned on the plogue forum, in their default installation, the kX drivers for the Soundblaster Live/Audigy swap the front and rear signals sent to the analog output jacks on the cards. This was done because the AC97 codec chip used for the fronts--especially on the SB Lives--was of inferior quality to the chip used for the rears. In the kX Mixer, there's a switch that will reverse this if a user doesn't want the swap.

Consequently, someone may be unaware of this and wondering why there's no sound when installing the drivers with only front speakers hooked up. In such a case, try either plugging the speakers into the rear channel output or using the switch in the kX control panel.

Regards,
Steve

Eye of Horus

27th June 2004, 12:46

I have a strange problem with Bidule/Besweet.
I have in Bidule : a 2 channel file player, one VST and a 6 channel filerecorder.
I have these all in 16 bits, the recorder records a 6 channel file in 16 bits and Besweet makes it 6 mono wav's with the normal order : FL,FR,C,LFE,SL,SR.
In the same layout I change the playing file to a 32 bit floating one and set the filerecorder to 32 bits float.
It writes a 6 channel wav.
This 6 channel wav goes through Besweet with the -6ch replaced by -6chfloat.
Now the order of the 6 mono files is completely mixed up !
LFE=SL, C=SR, FR=LFE, FL=C, SL=FL and SR=FR

Anyone any idea ??

kind regards,

EoH

Shayne

28th June 2004, 01:26

Bidule and besweet versions would be? This was a problem with an older version of bidule and besweet but have not had this problem for a while.

Peace

Eye of Horus

28th June 2004, 08:35

Originally posted by Shayne
Bidule and besweet versions would be? This was a problem with an older version of bidule and besweet but have not had this problem for a while.

Peace

Bidule 0.6602 and Besweet b28

EoH

Shayne

28th June 2004, 23:37

I have tested 6601 and b28 and the 32 bit float output tested by gain decreases is correct. I have not tried 6602 maybe you should try the 6601 version and see if it is the same garbage out. If it is correct than it would be something changed in the .2 version. This has happened before.

Peace

Eye of Horus

29th June 2004, 18:21

Originally posted by Shayne
I have tested 6601 and b28 and the 32 bit float output tested by gain decreases is correct. I have not tried 6602 maybe you should try the 6601 version and see if it is the same garbage out. If it is correct than it would be something changed in the .2 version. This has happened before.

Peace

I'm sorry : it's 0.6601 !

Today I tested again with the SRS VST : same problem, but... there is a pattern.

should be - is
FL - SL
FR - SR
C - LFE
LFE - FR
SL - C
SR - LFE

And again only with 32 bits files in a layout I used a minute before in and with 16 bits without any problem......

EoH

Shayne

30th June 2004, 01:28

Hmmm?

Perhaps you could post the layout file and we could test here. Would think it is only how you pin out to the recorder and things should not change. As i mentioned before your guide and 32 bit works just fine with pin outs and these two versions.

Peace

KpeX

30th June 2004, 04:24

Hi all,

Although things have been more on-topic over the last few posts, I'd ask you all again to keep things civil and on-topic. Anyone not respecting this is begging for an R4 or R16 strike.

As far as credit goes, I think the credit of contributors such as EoH and kempfand goes without saying. A comprehensive guide such as the one presented in this thread helps users more than any simple batch file could do. Think of the doom9 site. Without D9's guides, it would be nothing but a software archive. But his tenacious guides make it one of the most respected AV sites on the web. The bidules and methods used in this thread are well beyond my expertise and I don't feel that any credit needs to be given that hasn't already.

Now hopefully we can all move on and continue this groundbreaking audio conversion discussion.

Eye of Horus

30th June 2004, 07:56

Originally posted by Shayne
Hmmm?

Perhaps you could post the layout file and we could test here. Would think it is only how you pin out to the recorder and things should not change. As i mentioned before your guide and 32 bit works just fine with pin outs and these two versions.

Peace

There is not much of a layout file :D
Besides, when I change the order of the pins, it would come back with a 16 bit file !
Anyway : 2 ch fileplayer, a VST that makes 6 channels (it's only 1 VST, not a complex group : A DPL decoder) and a 6 channel recorder. That's really all there is !

EoH

Eye of Horus

30th June 2004, 09:09

Hi all,

One of the best commercial stereo to surround VST plugins, is available for a 7 days trial. The retail price is $299.
I can recommend you to try this !
http://www.surroundadvertising.com/store-vst/mall/default.asp

(but please take notice of the above messages about the pin layout on my setup, that is different when feeding 32 bits files instead of 16 bits..........)

An alternative in freeware can be found on :
http://multiphonie.free.fr/acousmodules_en.htm

These guys have a large collection of free VST's. I tried the Spat DPL decoder and was very pleased with the results.
If you put the free Voxengo Stereo Touch to the rears, you can get some incredible results.

They also have more surround plugins, even for 7.1 !
A highly recommended site !

Enjoy !

kind regards,

EoH

MaroonMike

1st July 2004, 12:53

EoH,

I have a humble request: would it be possible to put up a page with the various surround "types" and maybe give a brief descritpion of each with the pros & cons? I realize this is highly subjective, but for folks like me who don't get as much time to try out all the bidules & plugins, it might help us zoom in on what we are looking for.

Thanks,
Mike

daphy

1st July 2004, 13:20

@MaroonMike

for folks like me who don't get as much time to try out

I think this is one thing we all got in common, so don´t be disappointed when no one wants to start again at very begining (about 2 years ago) to comment every direction which was created in this long time. I once had the idea to this but I gave up because I also one of those who don't get as much time to try out , as married husband sometimes clocks ticking a little different ;)
So one thing is left from this idea: a PDF file with a 'little bit' of structure means a table of contents which leads you direct to the different methodes. I did this in May 2004, and from time to time I ´ll update this 'guide' which is actually nothing more or less than this thread. You´ll find it on the usual places.

Eye of Horus

1st July 2004, 15:02

Eye of Horus

1st July 2004, 15:04

Originally posted by daphy
@MaroonMike

I think this is one thing we all got in common, so don´t be disappointed when no one wants to start again at very begining (about 2 years ago) to comment every direction which was created in this long time. I once had the idea to this but I gave up because I also one of those , as married husband sometimes clocks ticking a little different ;)
So one thing is left from this idea: a PDF file with a 'little bit' of structure means a table of contents which leads you direct to the different methodes. I did this in May 2004, and from time to time I ´ll update this 'guide' which is actually nothing more or less than this thread. You´ll find it on the usual places.

Hey Daphy,

You had more time : Germany went after the first round :D :D
I still needed two evenings for Holland, but.... that's over too now :mad: :mad:

just kidding !!

kind regards,

EoH

daphy

1st July 2004, 15:45

Hey Daphy,

You had more time : Germany went after the first round
I still needed two evenings for Holland, but.... that's over too now
:D :D :D

let´s say 'patt' this time ;)

ursamtl

1st July 2004, 16:19

Originally posted by MaroonMike
EoH,

I have a humble request: would it be possible to put up a page with the various surround "types" and maybe give a brief descritpion of each with the pros & cons? I realize this is highly subjective, but for folks like me who don't get as much time to try out all the bidules & plugins, it might help us zoom in on what we are looking for.

Thanks,
Mike

Actually I proposed something similar to this recently to the moderators. The existing surround "sticky" would be replaced with a thread that starts by listing the different guides and methods and providing links to their individual threads or places within a thread. Discussions of surround sound methods in general would continue in the general sticky forum. Each new guide or method that comes along would be a non-sticky thread. The beginning of an individual thread would present the method or guide and then discussions about its technicalities, pros, cons, etc., would follow.

The only remaining question would be what to do with the current sticky thread. Obviously, no one has the time or desire to take this existing thread and split it up, rewrite it, or whatever, so it would still exist, but as a "non-sticky" thread that would be referenced from the sticky list, just like all the surround guides. That would preserve all the valuable information in this thread. Perhaps each contributor of a method could submit the link to his or her posting and then whoever manages the new sticky thread list could add the link.

The problem with the existing setup is that some surround methods never get mentioned in this thread but simply scroll off the first page list of recent threads. I found a couple of the methods I tried entirely by accident. Yes, people can search for them, but if the list were at the beginning of a thread is presented as a "sticky" it should give equal time to all the methods. As I mentioned recently in a reply to kempfand, there were some interesting bidules, vsts, etc., coming up in the middle of this thread, but reading to find them and get info can get really tedious. As well, the thread starts with one guide and for the first few pages, that's all that's discussed, so a newcomer may assume, as I did when I first found it a few weeks ago, that the whole thread focused on the original Ambisonic-based approach. Once I discovered some of the riches buried in the middle, I was surprised and happy!

Daphy and Andy do an amazing job with their server, but downloading the files and then actually implementing them as intended is often not easy. The PDF is good, but it needs constant updating. Anyway, I hope the mods do something because newcomers are missing some potentially great stuff. Yes, this thread is fascinating to read, but it's become somewhat leviathan for people who like you said just want to find something that might be what they're looking for, zoom in on it and have fun!

Regards,
Steve.

Tantulus

2nd July 2004, 00:55

Well, I compared DPL from my receiver, SAD5.1 with an ambient hall impulse response, the Voice-Non Center.Bidule, the Preservation_5_Speaker_v2_REC_.bidule, using a segment of the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth. I have to agree with Ursamtl that the Preservation_5v2_REc_.bidule is impressive. It even brought out to an extent the natural ambience of the concert hall in addition to filling the room as Ursamtl pointed out. For grins I added the ambient hall Impulse Response to the Preservation bidule (nod to Kempfand)and I was blown away (perhaps too much!) But again, it still all comes down to the engineering of the recording and other factors. For instance, I found that by switching the surround speakers from dipole, to direct or to bipole, I could refine the results of the above methods to my taste. Scattering the surround output produces a better feeling of space with all the above methods but particularly with the Gerzon method. So far I would vote for Preservation_5v2_REC.bidule number one followed by, at least, the Voice-Non Center/Instrumental for choral/orchestral works.

However, SAD5.1 was the winner for a solo instrument backed up by a consort. So at the risk of being redundant, I think the best approach is to really familarize oneself with what each bidle has to offer then listen carefully to the original CD to get a feeling for how it is produced and only then apply the most appropriate surround method.

Thanks everyone for enriching my experience with music!
Scott

ursamtl

2nd July 2004, 16:06

Originally posted by Tantulus
Well, I compared DPL from my receiver, SAD5.1 with an ambient hall impulse response, the Voice-Non Center.Bidule, the Preservation_5_Speaker_v2_REC_.bidule, using a segment of the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth. I have to agree with Ursamtl that the Preservation_5v2_REc_.bidule is impressive. It even brought out to an extent the natural ambience of the concert hall in addition to filling the room as Ursamtl pointed out. For grins I added the ambient hall Impulse Response to the Preservation bidule (nod to Kempfand)and I was blown away (perhaps too much!) But again, it still all comes down to the engineering of the recording and other factors. For instance, I found that by switching the surround speakers from dipole, to direct or to bipole, I could refine the results of the above methods to my taste. Scattering the surround output produces a better feeling of space with all the above methods but particularly with the Gerzon method. So far I would vote for Preservation_5v2_REC.bidule number one followed by, at least, the Voice-Non Center/Instrumental for choral/orchestral works.

However, SAD5.1 was the winner for a solo instrument backed up by a consort. So at the risk of being redundant, I think the best approach is to really familarize oneself with what each bidle has to offer then listen carefully to the original CD to get a feeling for how it is produced and only then apply the most appropriate surround method.

Thanks everyone for enriching my experience with music!
Scott

Hi Scott,

Nice to hear your experiments are going well. Your discussion of the bipole surrounds reminded me of some reading I did recently regarding THX certification. Part of that standard calls for such an approach for the surrounds.

Stay tuned because if you liked the bidules so far in this thread, you're going to love what I'm working on now! I should finish testing and writing a guide in another week or two. Ironically, I was testing it on the final movement of Beethoven's 9th yesterday as well as on a John Williams recording of Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez. Talk about filling a room with sound! :)

Steve.