GUIDE: Stereo to 5-Channel Surround

[bitsnbytes]

I have A website I havnt updated in sometime
Its A gaming website for quake3 Arena. My online buddy makes quake3 trick movies and I demuxed his avi and converted it to 5.1 And muxed it back w/ fairly nice results and file size was much smaller than his .mp3 track :sly: . So I'm gonna make A page this weekend for gamers to use these fine tools as well as post my bidules w/ links to helpful info and tools.
I havnt set my comp up to work with my website as we recently moved and I bought some stereo eqiupment :D

Then I can just post links to my bidules here and small sample files for the Guru.

Question have you tried the BPan_m_gui if so
your thoughts? I'm using it to go to stereo havnt tried it to 5.1... How's testing going on the 3rd order tools?
And A help page http://www.dmalham.freeserve.co.uk/bpan_help.html

Thanks Again for this wonderful guide

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by bitsnbytes
I have A website I havnt updated in sometime
Its A gaming website for quake3 Arena. My online buddy makes quake3 trick movies and I demuxed his avi and converted it to 5.1 And muxed it back w/ fairly nice results and file size was much smaller than his .mp3 track :sly: . So I'm gonna make A page this weekend for gamers to use these fine tools as well as post my bidules w/ links to helpful info and tools.
I havnt set my comp up to work with my website as we recently moved and I bought some stereo eqiupment :D

Then I can just post links to my bidules here and small sample files for the Guru.

Question have you tried the BPan_m_gui if so
your thoughts? I'm using it to go to stereo havnt tried it to 5.1... How's testing going on the 3rd order tools?
And A help page http://www.dmalham.freeserve.co.uk/bpan_help.html

Thanks Again for this wonderful guide

THNX ! :D

I think we need a webpage where we can post our bidules. (Daphy are you still with us ??)
And I think every bidule should have a screen picture with it !
In case there are some special settings : add them preferred with a screen dump too.......

So... for every bidule some sort of mini guide :-)

I can supply the webspace if necessary......

About BPan_M_gui and the 3th order tools.....
I didn't experiment with them yet. I think you "should" know by now, that Kempfand is the expert of the format and I think he can answer that immediately; I am only the writer of the guide to (try to) make it understandable for everyone ;)
I do experiment a lot with all the tools however. And I like it a lot.... This Bidule system is so easy !!
And there are so many nice free plugins available !
I have been experimenting a lot with stereo spreaders just to see what kind of effect they have on the end 5.1......
And I combined the KpeX (SAD5.1) method with the Ambisonics method to see if that was an improvement.... It wasn't ! On their own they both do fine, but it's no use to combine them. Actually the theories of Kempfand were confirmed....

So, Daphy, are you still there.... ? Can we still "dump" everything to you ? Or shall I open my own space for bidules, screendumps and their explanations ?

kind regards,

EoH

[TRILIGHT]

I just wanted to thank you as well, Eye of Horus. If it were not for your guide, I would not have even considered still playing with the whole 2ch to 5ch thing. I've not had a chance to put any real time into testing but I know it's out there now.

[kempfand]

Question have you tried the BPan_m_gui if so your thoughts? If have, but not in a systematic way, and therefore I will not comment here. Something for the upcoming winter-months :D

For sure, the 'Mirror type' with B_Pan_m is sth to experiment with, as is B-Plane Mirror (http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/mustech/3d_audio/vst/bfpmirror_help.html) , as well as 'improvement' of Quad-recordings.


Kempfand is the expert of the format It was clearly a joint effort (an excellent example of team-work so-to-speak), and after all, my interest in Ambisonics got triggered by EoH's 'old' guide :) and what it delivers in terms of sound.

Andreas

[joshbm]

Hello all,

I have created a group for Bidule (instead of a project file). Download these files and put them in the Bidule "Group" folder.

5.1 Surround (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/download.aspx?file=5.1 Surround.bgrp)
6 Channel Gain (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/download.aspx?file=6ch Gain.bgrp)

The first one is the 5.1 surround. After you put it in your folder called "Group". You can access it from your "palette" and under "Groups" called "5.1 Surround". Instead of a mess like this (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/setup1.gif), you get a nice group like this (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/setup2.gif) with exactly 2 inputs and 6 outputs.

I also included something called 6ch Gain which allows you to control the gain of 6 channels at once instead of 2.

Problems:
Bidule currently does move the attributes around as you saw in the tutorial and have to manually set it to "Pentagon" under Emmigrator and move the right most notch on B-Pan to 0 degrees. To do this you can simply right click on the group (not in the palette) and hit "Grouping" and "Expand" then change your controls and then to get back go to "Grouping" again and then "Parent Group".

For me it helps because it makes it less confusing.

- joshbm

[davidv@plogue]

Nice groups!

Just a quick note, the next release of bidule saves the emigrator
settings properly and has a brand new "OFFLINE" mode in order to
render files as fast as your machine can process.

Thanx for your interrest in Bidule!
And watch out for the next version around november...

Cheers

[TRILIGHT]

Originally posted by davidv@plogue
Just a quick note, the next release of bidule saves the emigrator
settings properly and has a brand new "OFFLINE" mode in order to
render files as fast as your machine can process.

AWESOME!!!! Now I can really start playing! Thanks for the update, David!

[bitsnbytes]

I think Besweet GUI changes the layout A bit
instead of
1 > 3 = C
2 > 1 = FL
3 > 5 = SL
4 > 6 = SR
5 > 2 = FR
6 > 4 = LFE (an empty wav)
as per your guide... BesweetGUI uses
1 > 2 = C
2 > 1 = FL
3 > 4 = SL
4 > 5 = SR
5 > 3 = FR
6 > 6 = LFE

I say this for my page, as I'm sure most will opt for ac3enc.dll and besweet GUI is the quickest way.



Please correct me if i'm wrong.

PS cant wait for new bidule! Thanks

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Thanks. I finally got it running with this command line...
BeSweet.exe -core( -input E:\TEST.wav -output E:\temp- -6chfloat ) -ota( -g peak )
I encoded using SoftEncode but I'm not overly impressed with what I'm hearing. Sure, it's clean and comes out all of the speakers (I was expecting something a bit more intelligent but vocals are in the rear also), but it is not as clear as the original. I can compare the two and the extracted WAV obviously has more clarity than what I'm hearing in the AC3 that was created. Any idea what could be causing this loss of clarity?

Sorry for the late reaction, must have overseen this.... :rolleyes:

If I understood it correct, you are comparing an original WAV with an AC3. Every WAV will sound better than any AC3 made of that WAV !
It's the compression !!! Just like a WAV always will sound better than a MP3. Of course a lot of us won't hear the difference between a WAV and a MP3 in 320 kbs, but...... make a WAV again from that mp3 and compare with the original WAV.....
Try encoding it in 44.1 Khz to DTS CD and compare that with the original WAV. Still compression but a lot less than in AC3's.

Anyway : More clarity can be reached
a. by converting the WAV to 32 bits before the processing
b. when you upsample in SF, do you really upsample or use the "save as..." function ? When you upsample, try adding a clarify filter.
"process" menu , "smooth/enhance" .
It helped me......

kind regards,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by bitsnbytes
I think Besweet GUI changes the layout A bit
instead of
1 > 3 = C
2 > 1 = FL
3 > 5 = SL
4 > 6 = SR
5 > 2 = FR
6 > 4 = LFE (an empty wav)
as per your guide... BesweetGUI uses
1 > 2 = C
2 > 1 = FL
3 > 4 = SL
4 > 5 = SR
5 > 3 = FR
6 > 6 = LFE

I say this for my page, as I'm sure most will opt for ac3enc.dll and besweet GUI is the quickest way.



Please correct me if i'm wrong.

PS cant wait for new bidule! Thanks

I won't correct you :-)It's already confusing enough :-))
I think this question is for the Besweet thread :-)


Anyway, what you quoted from the guide is the way the channels are recorded by the File-recorder from 6 inputs to one WAV containing these 6 channels. Right ?
And these settings are correct.
So any way you use a piece of software to extract the 6 separate mono's from that one wav, gives you back the 6 original wavs...
And they should be the same !

I used the last STABLE Besweet version (1.4 !).

If anything changed, please ask again in a Besweet Thread..... That's DSPGuru's department :-) :-)

kind regards,

EoH

[TRILIGHT]

Hey EoH! Thanks for the advice. I know what I'm hearing is not compression artifacts. I'm not using any DRC either so that can't be to blame either. I'm encoding at 384kbps which I thought was high enough. I've never been able to tell much of a difference between 384 and 448 before.

I guess I'm comparing it to the MP3 encoding I do using LAME. I challenge anyone to hear the difference in the MP3's I encode and the original. If the AC3 encoding is really to blame, is Dolby really that screwed up?? I can't imagine they would come up with algorithms worse than that found in the free LAME encoding engine but maybe they did?

Thanks for the tips on processing, EoH! I will try converting to 32bit first. I do upsample correctly but I will try adding a filter to it to see if it will help in the final output.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by joshbm
Hello all,

I have created a group for Bidule (instead of a project file). Download these files and put them in the Bidule "Group" folder.

5.1 Surround (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/download.aspx?file=5.1 Surround.bgrp)
6 Channel Gain (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/download.aspx?file=6ch Gain.bgrp)

The first one is the 5.1 surround. After you put it in your folder called "Group". You can access it from your "palette" and under "Groups" called "5.1 Surround". Instead of a mess like this (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/setup1.gif), you get a nice group like this (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/setup2.gif) with exactly 2 inputs and 6 outputs.

I also included something called 6ch Gain which allows you to control the gain of 6 channels at once instead of 2.

Problems:
Bidule currently does move the attributes around as you saw in the tutorial and have to manually set it to "Pentagon" under Emmigrator and move the right most notch on B-Pan to 0 degrees. To do this you can simply right click on the group (not in the palette) and hit "Grouping" and "Expand" then change your controls and then to get back go to "Grouping" again and then "Parent Group".

For me it helps because it makes it less confusing.

- joshbm

Hi Joshbm,

I was experimenting this evening and used your 5.1 surround group.
I made sure settings were okay, only I didn't look at the HNM filters, assuming they would be correct.
Anyway, to make a short story long.... I loaded the 6 files into CE (I refuse to use the name Audition :D ) and the LFE was completely clipped..... really terrible !

Just FYI....

Any idea ?

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Hey EoH! Thanks for the advice. I know what I'm hearing is not compression artifacts.

You said it sounded dull.... that's what happens with processing in 16 bits AND compression.



I'm not using any DRC either so that can't be to blame either. I'm encoding at 384kbps which I thought was high enough. I've never been able to tell much of a difference between 384 and 448 before.

I guess I'm comparing it to the MP3 encoding I do using LAME. I challenge anyone to hear the difference in the MP3's I encode and the original. If the AC3 encoding is really to blame, is Dolby really that screwed up?? I can't imagine they would come up with algorithms worse than that found in the free LAME encoding engine but maybe they did?

No they didn't ! but ...it's the combination of bitrate, bitdepth and processing..... Every step on the process should be done in the highest possible quality to get an excellent result.

BTW... compare an original WAV with a WAV extracted from AC3. Not by your ears but bit-by-bit.....
What's out by compression, will not get in again !!
And (in my experience) with MP3 you're only safe with bitrates higher than 160.........
Lower onces will give a hearable difference in the comparison test, higher ones only when comparing bit-by-bit......


Thanks for the tips on processing, EoH! I will try converting to 32bit first. I do upsample correctly but I will try adding a filter to it to see if it will help in the final output.

The 32 bits is the most important ! (Just like Kempfand said : Steinberg is even suggesting 64 bits now !)
Only use the filter when it still sounds dull..... but it shouldn't !

Hope it's a bit clear.... after a whole day trying and experimenting with different settings, my head is like a strainer :confused:

kind regards,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
Hi Joshbm,

I was experimenting this evening and used your 5.1 surround group.
I made sure settings were okay, only I didn't look at the HNM filters, assuming they would be correct.
Anyway, to make a short story long.... I loaded the 6 files into CE (I refuse to use the name Audition :D ) and the LFE was completely clipped..... really terrible !

Just FYI....

Any idea ?

EoH

A bit more up-to-date information. I used wav2wav6.exe to make the 6 WAV's. But..... this program has (again) another order. So I used the good old Besweet again and.... now the channels were in the right order and... the clipping is in the SR channel (instead of the LFE). Of course I will have a look at the settings in Bidule, but I thought you would like to know too .

grtz,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
A bit more up-to-date information. I used wav2wav6.exe to make the 6 WAV's. But..... this program has (again) another order. So I used the good old Besweet again and.... now the channels were in the right order and... the clipping is in the SR channel (instead of the LFE). Of course I will have a look at the settings in Bidule, but I thought you would like to know too .

grtz,

EoH

Pppppffffffff........

I finally found out what's wrong.....

When you expand the group, you will see that the connections are not what they should be !

"The first one is the 5.1 surround. After you put it in your folder called "Group". You can access it from your "palette" and under "Groups" called "5.1 Surround". Instead of a mess like this, you get a nice group like this with exactly 2 inputs and 6 outputs." . this is from your first announcement. When you check the expanded group against the "mess like this" picture, you will see the difference..... Only 5 channels instead of 6.

My fault was that I remapped the channels from your output again, which was already taken care of in the group.....

Anyway.... can you correct it ? TIA !!!

kind regards,

EoH

[joshbm]

Yeah, I was fooling around with some of the settings, :-\. I just tested it again and it sounds terrible lol. I will upload my other group that isn't clipping.

Regards,
- joshbm

[Umma]

I'm hoping I missed something in this voluminous thread...but is there a batch method that we can batch files prior to Plogue Bidule?

[joshbm]

The updated version can be redownloaded from the first link I gave you:

5.1 Surround (http://www.videocdpro.com/josh/download.aspx?file=5.1 Surround.bgrp)

You can also make your own group simply by enhancing mine or you could select all of your work area (except of course the player and recorders) and right click (once it's all highlighted) on an object that is highlighted and goto "Grouping" and "Group Selected Objects".

Than once your done you can go to "Grouping" again and "Save Selected Group".

Regards,
- joshbm

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Umma
I'm hoping I missed something in this voluminous thread...but is there a batch method that we can batch files prior to Plogue Bidule?

Where would you use a batch for ?

EoH

[Umma]

"Where would you use a batch for ?"

Well, say if I got 10 files I want to load into Pogue Bidule. Do I just do them one at a time or can I line them up some kind of way?

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Umma
"Where would you use a batch for ?"

Well, say if I got 10 files I want to load into Pogue Bidule. Do I just do them one at a time or can I line them up some kind of way?

I'm sorry. I guess I didn't see the reason , but was rather shortsighted.... :-)

Indeed, there is no batch for 10 different files.
I guess it can be done somehow....
- make one big file from the 10 (WAV/CUE ?)
- process that big one
- make 10 files from that big one with the CUE

It is a solution and I guess it can be made into something automatic....

Anyone else with ideas ???????????


grtz,

EoH

[Umma]

make 10 files from that big one with the CUE


I like the sound of that...okay.

To keep this thread on task, can you point me to someplace that explains how to make a cue file? I know what they are, I think KPex or Andreas posted one in a thread somewhere on Doom9, but to make them is beyond me.

Thanks for the kind replies, I'm deleting, defragging, and getting ready to do a another CD. :)

D

[daphy]

:rolleyes:

@Umma

that´s easy:

1. use Exact Audio Copy V0.95 prebeta 3 (http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/eac6.html)(works fine) to rip as one WAV + CUE

2. work on the WAV (ambisonic -> DTSWAV/AC3WAV)

3. burn the CUE as CDIMAGE with NERO/CDRWIN...


alternativ

1. use Cooledit open your single WAVs append to one big WAV

2. work on the WAV (ambisonic -> DTSWAV/AC3WAV)

3. use CUESHEET Editor (http://www.dcsoft.com/prod03.htm) or a simple Texteditor to make your own CUE in the EAC stil - you will find out, it´s not that difficult ;)

4. burn the CUE as CDIMAGE with NERO/CDRWIN... (howto and further informations (http://www.dcsoft.com/cue_mastering_progs.htm))


-> this method is the only method I know to make f.e. a live concert on DTS/AC3 not to stop (for a very little, but noticeable moment) between the tracks

further questions? send PM

CYA Daphy

PS: you can also use the CUE-file with more the one WAV and you can also create a CD-TEXT CD

[Calabuig]

Sorry if it's off-topic...

I want to make a big applause for EoH and friends' work...
I'm new to this method and I'd like to try it.

But I have a problem in the Bidule installation: when it starts a message says that the program have found 46 groups and then it crashes. A new message says "access violation" and then the programs closes.

This is the last part of the bidule's log:


Now enumerating Slave Devices...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SysTimer created
Starting ReWire!
Enumeration ReWire Devices:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OnInit Opening Main Window
OnInit BiduleMainWindow in
OnInit maximize
OnInit SetTopWindow
OnInit buildGUI
BiduleMainWindow::buildGUI() in
BiduleMainWindow::buildGUI() new BiduleDocument in
BiduleDocument ctor in
BiduleDocument looking for default.bidule
opening default
--Loading C:\Programmi\Plogue\Bidule\layouts\default.bidule
XMLSerializer::load Building DOC in
XMLSerializer::build in
building children:0
building children:1
building children:2
building children:3
XMLSerializer::buildBidule of type : AudioOutput_0 with ID : UID_1026570523
AudioDevice: AudioOutput_0 id:3 master:1 ins:0 outs:2 allocated!
AudioDevice ctor out
AudioDevice::init in
AudioDevice::init out
AudioDevice: AudioOutput_0, is now acquired
XMLSerializer::buildBidule of type : MidiInput_0 with ID : UID_1026570524
MidiDevice: MidiInput_0 id:5 master:0 ins:1 outs:0 allocated!
MidiDevice: MidiInput_0, is now acquired
XMLSerializer::buildBidule of type : com.plogue.Comment with ID : UID_1026758624
XMLSerializer::buildBidule of type : com.plogue.Mixer with ID : UID_1044475375
building children:4
building children:5
building children:6
XMLSerializer::load Building DOC out
--Loading C:\Programmi\Plogue\Bidule\layouts\default.bidule done!
BiduleDocument ctor out
BiduleMainWindow::buildGUI() new BiduleDocument out
BiduleMainWindow::buildGUI() _biduleDoc->getGroupRoot()->getGeometry() in
BiduleMainWindow::buildGUI() _biduleDoc->getGroupRoot()->getGeometry() out
BiduleMainWindow::buildGUI() new Patchbay in
Severe Bidule Crash! docOpen:1 intransv:0 pbDirty:1
StackTraceExceptionFilter in
Unhandled Exception
Code: c0000005
Description: EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION
Call stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

StackTraceExceptionFilter out


Is there anyone who can help me?
Thanks in advance!

[davidv@plogue]

EXCEPTION_ACCESS_VIOLATION

Could you send the full Bidule.log to support@plogue.com?

Cheers

[Calabuig]

Ok, I can use Bidule changing the screen colors depth to 256!
It's Matrox G400TV's fault!
(Anywhere, if is there anyone who can help me...!)
Another question: I own a home theatre system and I'd like to make a 5.1 CD (with LFE). Could you suggest me "good" values for LFE's HNM_filter?
Thanks in advance!

@daphy
The link to your 2.1to5 layout doesn't work (I used "save as..." option). Could you fix it? Thanks

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Calabuig
Ok, I can use Bidule changing the screen colors depth to 256!
It's Matrox G400TV's fault!
(Anywhere, if is there anyone who can help me...!)
Another question: I own a home theatre system and I'd like to make a 5.1 CD (with LFE). Could you suggest me "good" values for LFE's HNM_filter?
Thanks in advance!

@daphy
The link to your 2.1to5 layout doesn't work (I used "save as..." option). Could you fix it? Thanks

I would almost say : RTFT !!!! :D
(Read The F.....g Thread !)

But I won't.........

Joshbm posted a 5.1 group !

kind regards,

EoH

[bitsnbytes]

Managed to start the page but have not expanded the page so as not to confuse the gamers.
Yes this page is for gamers so its based on ac3enc.dll.
I will be expanding and dressing it up as real life allows I will Be adding A Bidule page ... Groups etc.

Again thanks

http://www.planetquake.com/filterfactory/3daudio.html

[vtwin0001]

Hello, I just tried the method given, but I am getting strange results.

Its a VHS to DVD cnversion, so I took the .mpa file and converted it to 48Khz WAV (its already 2ch) with Headac3he.

I sucesfully converted the Stereo WAV file to 6 ch WAV; the resulting file was called result.wav and its size is 3.71 Gb

When I tried to run BeSweet on command line, I've got this:

D:\AC3 Audio from Stereo 2 5.1\BeSweetv1.4>BeSweet.exe -core( -input c:\result.wav -output c:\tempor\temp- -type wav -6ch ) -ota( -G max )
BeSweet v1.4 by DSPguru.
--------------------------

[00:00:00:000] +------- BeSweet -----
[00:00:00:000] | Input : c:\result.wav
[00:00:00:000] | Output: FL, FR, SL, SR, C, LFE
[00:00:00:000] | Floating-Point Process: No
[00:00:00:000] | Source Sample-Rate: 48.0KHz
[00:00:00:000] +---------------------
[00:00:00:000] Conversion Completed !
[00:00:00:000] <-- Transcoding Duration


Visit DSPguru's Homepage at :
http://DSPguru.doom9.net/

D:\AC3 Audio from Stereo 2 5.1\BeSweetv1.4>

as you can see the time it took to convert it was zero, and the resulting files are 44kb each, therefore, I think there was no conversion at all

What am I doing wrong with Besweet?

Please help

Thanks.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by vtwin0001
Hello, I just tried the method given, but I am getting strange results.

Its a VHS to DVD cnversion, so I took the .mpa file and converted it to 48Khz WAV (its already 2ch) with Headac3he.

I sucesfully converted the Stereo WAV file to 6 ch WAV; the resulting file was called result.wav and its size is 3.71 Gb

When I tried to run BeSweet on command line, I've got this:

D:\AC3 Audio from Stereo 2 5.1\BeSweetv1.4>BeSweet.exe -core( -input c:\result.wav -output c:\tempor\temp- -type wav -6ch ) -ota( -G max )
BeSweet v1.4 by DSPguru.
--------------------------

[00:00:00:000] +------- BeSweet -----
[00:00:00:000] | Input : c:\result.wav
[00:00:00:000] | Output: FL, FR, SL, SR, C, LFE
[00:00:00:000] | Floating-Point Process: No
[00:00:00:000] | Source Sample-Rate: 48.0KHz
[00:00:00:000] +---------------------
[00:00:00:000] Conversion Completed !
[00:00:00:000] <-- Transcoding Duration


Visit DSPguru's Homepage at :
http://DSPguru.doom9.net/

D:\AC3 Audio from Stereo 2 5.1\BeSweetv1.4>

as you can see the time it took to convert it was zero, and the resulting files are 44kb each, therefore, I think there was no conversion at all

What am I doing wrong with Besweet?

Please help

Thanks.

I've had the same problems lately with files larger than 2 GB.
I used wav2wav6.exe instead to get the 6 mono files.
Only one thing : the channel naming is different.
The resulting files must be renamed like this :

fl > fl
fr > fr
c > c
sl > lfe
sr > sl
lfe > sr

kind regards,

EoH

[daphy]

@ EOH

I did much encoding last week -> it now works perfect for me without LFE (you´re right, no need of this hn-filter) :D :D

I also managed to integrate the results in DTS to VOBs - this wasn´t a nice job, ´cause programs like IFOEDIT doesn´t do the expected actions (wasting sooo much time on it) :angry: so I had to switch to a commercial program (maybe I will write a guide for this :rolleyes: ).

some little hints
-> DTS-WAV CDs(PCM) work perfect on 32/44.1 no need to transform back to 16/44.1
-> 32 bit encoding needs to be checked every single channel for the click at the beginning

-> you can also mux DTS-WAV PCM (16/48) to DVD - but you will have only trouble with that (synchronize movie etc.)

-> beware of a too big file (6 channel WAV) because Besweet won´t accept them. Until now I don´t know the exactly size when you have to split your source file in to two pieces ~ around one hour at 32/48 :( I would recommend :o this means less than ~5GB

CYA Daphy

[daphy]

I've had the same problems lately with files larger than 2 GB.
I used WAV2WAV6.EXE (http://needfulthings.webhop.org/) instead to get the 6 mono files.
Only one thing : the channel naming is different.
The resulting files must be renamed like this :

fl > fl
fr > fr
c > c
sl > lfe
sr > sl
lfe > sr

kind regards,

EoH



like:

c:\wav2wav6.exe 6wav.wav :confused:

I guess somethings missing

I haven´t tried this so far, but I remember this as part of the former ambi-guide :rolleyes:

CYA Daphy

[SallyDog]

Besweet should be able to handle files larger than 2g using 32 bit floating, although I have yet to succeed with this method.

@EoH - thanks for the wav2wav6 mapping info. I've been trying to figure that out for the last week. :D :D

SallyDog

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by daphy
I guess somethings missing

I haven´t tried this so far, but I remember this as part of the former ambi-guide :rolleyes:

CYA Daphy

This is the commandline :
(you can put it in any directory you like, so here c:\test)

c:\test\wav2wav6.exe input.wav -44

This wil give 6 mono wav, with names frontleft,frontright,center,surroundleft,surroundright,subwoofer.
in 16 bit 44.1 Khz in the same directory.

( -48 is the default input )

I don't know if it works with 32 bits though ......

kind regards,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by SallyDog
Besweet should be able to handle files larger than 2g using 32 bit floating, although I have yet to succeed with this method.

@EoH - thanks for the wav2wav6 mapping info. I've been trying to figure that out for the last week. :D :D

SallyDog

Hi Sallydog,

I don't know what's wrong, but every version of Besweet I tried (from 1.3 to 1.5b21) crashes on files larger than 2 GB (16 bits !) on Window 2000 pro or on XP pro. (Both with the latest SP's).

It crashes with differences though :
1. it starts and goes through the whole proces. At the end : crash
2. it starts and is ready within 2 seconds.

I tried several things like auto channel, 6 channels... makes no difference.
On my PC the versions worked without problem on smaller files......


grtz,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by daphy
@ EOH

I did much encoding last week -> it now works perfect for me without LFE (you´re right, no need of this hn-filter) :D :D

I also managed to integrate the results in DTS to VOBs - this wasn´t a nice job, ´cause programs like IFOEDIT doesn´t do the expected actions (wasting sooo much time on it) :angry: so I had to switch to a commercial program (maybe I will write a guide for this :rolleyes: ).


@Daphy
I also did a few albums and..... here it is the other way round :-)
I made one with a LFE that sounded better than without..... !!
I guess it just has too much to do with the "playing" equipment.

DTS to VOBs > Do you mean something similar like DVDArchitect does with AC3 ? Making music albums ?
Which program did you use ? I would love to see a guide !!

And now we're busy..... hey, I had some other questions for you, but you didn't respond. Perhaps overseen ???

Question was : do you still provide the webspace to post the Bidules and screenshots ? If not...please let me know, because I have the intention to built one myself, but don't want to invent the wheel twice :-)

OTOH it won't be before the new Dibule version is finished !


kind regards............


EoH

[SallyDog]

@EoH

See the BeSweet FAQ thread in this forum, question #30.

Regards,

SallyDog

[rasta21]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
I've had the same problems lately with files larger than 2 GB.
I used wav2wav6.exe instead to get the 6 mono files.
Only one thing : the channel naming is different.
The resulting files must be renamed like this :

fl > fl
fr > fr
c > c
sl > lfe
sr > sl
lfe > sr

kind regards,

EoH

...i think you have to change some front to center, too.

fr > c
c > fr

...or fl...if you prefer this way

[TerraForce1]

Well hi,

my question, as stupid as it may sound, is the following. Can the output (let's say a 32 bit recording)of Bidule be used as an input again. I really like the ambisonic sound image that is created by Bidule. I don't know if it is possible to feed this sound image again trough bidule to achieve a better sound than the first. Or will it stay the same. (I look at it like a 2nd pass for Bidule)

I have done no testing, because I am now converting a movie soundtrack, but suddenly it came up in my mind.

[daphy]

Originally posted by daphy
I guess somethings missing

I haven´t tried this so far, but I remember this as part of the former ambi-guide

CYA Daphy


This is the commandline :
(you can put it in any directory you like, so here c:\test)

c:\test\wav2wav6.exe input.wav -44

This wil give 6 mono wav, with names frontleft,frontright,center,surroundleft,surroundright,subwoofer.
in 16 bit 44.1 Khz in the same directory.

( -48 is the default input )

I don't know if it works with 32 bits though ......

kind regards,

EoH

Hi folks,

I did some testing with wav2wav6.exe -> result 32bit/48KHz splitting ended always in 6 empty wavs :( so we can´t use this with greater file size, what means we stick at besweet and the 2GB barrier. :(

[daphy]

DVD sound track guide:

If you want to do some tracks for DVD this means much work in splitting and mergin´ files.



A. Sound
1. I would recommend to split the 32/48 source WAV at about ~40-45 min or less

2. then run the ambisonic part on each file

3. splitt the 6wav-file (result from bidule) with besweet (the file would be around 2GB),

4. lower (NOT CUTTING because of the synchronization) the volumen if necesary at the beginning of EACH of the channel files because of the noisy scratch produced mostly in 32bit(?),

5. merge all channel files with f.e. 'open apend' (monoFL1 + monoFL2 + monoFLxx -> monoFL ... )

6. then transform via encoder to DTS/AC3.



B. Movie
1a. Use f.e. Smartripper to demux the movie track from DVD -> result a single file (MV2) - (you can also use ChaptorXtraktor to make a chapterfile in DVD Maestro styl)

1b. Use a MPEG Encoder like TMPEG Plus / MainConcept / ProEncoder... to transform your AVI-file into a MV2/MPV/MPG ... file (basic MPEG Stream -> no sound input selected, this makes the rest little easier).
If necessary you can merge more than one AVI before doing this with VirtualDub <open> AVI1 <open apending segment> AVI2 ... ;) then saving using source file modus.



C. Merging (not authoring in Hollywood style)
Because of being so much impressed of the DTS vs. AC3 comparison I do always work with DTS.

The only program I found which is EASY to use for our needs is DVD Maestro (2.9 not supported anymore, maybe someone would find a as easy method with a other program)
-> I´m also tired of messing around and wasting time with Scenarist, THIS IS DEFINITIVLY NO EASY TO USE PROGRAM, IF YOU WANT TO SUGGEST THIS MAKE YOUR OWN GUIDE AND POST ´EM BEFORE SUGGESTING IT :angry:

1. open the app and drag´n´drop the MV2 and the DTS, AC3 (beware of naked PCM-Tracks because of the sampling rate) to the box down right.
Now the program prozesses each single file, depending of the file size you can go in the kitchen and make another cup of cafe :rolleyes:

2. Now drag´n´drop each file to the top (right), position zero, that means beware of not exact positions because of the synchronization

(3. Chaptors: use the chaptorfile from ChaptorXtraktor - but you have to check them, found a bug in DVD Maestro)

(4. Make your Hollywoodstyl Menue, else)

5. delete the menues in DVD Maestro recommended)

6 Complile to VOB/IFO/BUB


D. Make it fit to DVD
I noticed with DTS Tracks a lag of space on DVD since I have no DVD-RAM writer there only two oportunities left:

a. Shrink
Use DVD Shrink/Nero Recode or what ever on the files to make it fit!
I strongly recommend to use the reauthor combined with the deeper scan option - do not shrink lower than 70% in my opinon the quiality the is still acceptable.

b. Split
Use DVDFab to split the files, don´t forget to use a nice splitting graphic :D

That´s it

For the first take calculate a weekend on a two hour film ;)

Any suggestions - or ideas to explain it easier?

CYA Daphy

[DSPguru]

Originally posted by daphy
I did some testing with wav2wav6.exe -> result 32bit/48KHz splitting ended always in 6 empty wavs :( so we can´t use this with greater file size, what means we stick at besweet and the 2GB barrier. :( your attention to q30 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15738).. ;)


@EoH
any chance that you update your guide according to this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60907&perpage=5&pagenumber=6) ?

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by DSPguru
your attention to q30 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15738).. ;)


@EoH
any chance that you update your guide according to this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60907&perpage=5&pagenumber=6) ?

I still need to update the guide, but on this point :
I am a bit confused. Besweet (all versions I have) crashed when I tried to extract 6 mono wavs from a bigger than 2 GB file. But Wav2wav6 did the job !

@Daphy : you make a strange conclusion : it doesn't work on 32/48, so we must find another solution for files bigger than 2 GB. But these both have nothing to do with each other ! It doesn't work on 32/48, but it does work on files bigger than 2 GB ! (with the right OS and filesystem, of course !) I had no problem at all on Windows 2000 with a 3.6 GB 16/48 file on NTFS.


So am I right in this conclusion :

File in 16 or 32 bits and smaller than 2 GB > Use Besweet
File in 16 bits and smaller or bigger tahn 2 GB > use wav2wav6
File in 32 bits and larger than 2 GB > use Cooledit ??

kind regards,

EoH

[daphy]

@Daphy : you make a strange conclusion : it doesn't work on 32/48, so we must find another solution for files bigger than 2 GB. But these both have nothing to do with each other ! It doesn't work on 32/48, but it does work on files bigger than 2 GB ! (with the right OS and filesystem, of course !) I had no problem at all on Windows 2000 with a 3.6 GB 16/48 file on NTFS.

Hi EoH

shurely strange but it works fine for me. ;)
Still the main problem is if you transcode the whole 2 hour 32/48 WAV in one go, you´ll get a about 5.8 GB file (6wav-file ambisonic).

And now suddendly something very surprising happend: you start besweet to split and it works :rolleyes: but finished after (it differs everytime) a splitting time from f.e. 25min -> you get 6 six files with 25min - definitivly no crash at all -> cause with the GUI commandline besweet tries to start the surcode app - this wouldn´t happen if besweet crashes, am I right?).

I tried to find out where the mistake is, ok I do know the 2GB barrier, but those 6 single WAVs are alright but only unfinished.

I use cooledit on the 6wavfile (ambisonic):
the scanner stops after 25min (again!!!!) and shows me a 25min 32/48 mono file :confused: :confused: :confused:


So am I right in this conclusion :So am I right in this conclusion :
File in 16 or 32 bits and smaller than 2 GB > Use Besweet
File in 16 bits and smaller or bigger tahn 2 GB > use wav2wav6
File in 32 bits and larger than 2 GB > use Cooledit ??

sorry EoH
-> for me it seams that cooledit wouldn´t solve the big filesize problem

why 25min or 3:37min... (take1/take2...)
I start believing that this is not meanly a besweet/cooledit problem maybe more a bidule problem.

Ok this is why I start splitting the source file (stereo file) up to 4 times - transcode the pieces to 6wavs (ambisonic), split into 6 single mono wavs and then again merge them to 6 single 2h 32/48 mono wavs (as mentioned in the guide) (FL/FR/C/SL/SR)

Maybe the guy from plodge can help us to find out if there is a second size barriere caused by bidule :(

CYA Daphy

PS: hope someone would understand what I mean :cool:

[Calabuig]

Hi, I've a problem with Besweet when I try to create single 6 mono wav files. It produces 6 files but when I open one of them, the player says that his lenght is 6:12:00 hours (the original and the bidule result file is 1:59:55 and larger than 2Gb).
I try wav2wav6 but the resulted files' names are wrong.
Eye of Horus suggest to rename them like this:

fl > fl
fr > fr
c > c
sl > lfe
sr > sl
lfe > sr

but Rasta21 says we must also rename:

fr > c
c > fr

"...or fl...if you prefer this way"

Can you help me to make it right?
Thanks in advance!

[daphy]

Hi, I've a problem with Besweet when I try to create single 6 mono wav files. It produces 6 files but when I open one of them, the player says that his lenght is 6:12:00 hours (the original and the bidule result file is 1:59:55 and larger than 2Gb).

Question

what source file format do you use?

16bit/32bit - 44.1/48KHz

CYA Daphy

[Calabuig]

16bit - 48Khz

Wav2wav6 is ok, but I'm in a mess with the resulted files' names...

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Calabuig
16bit - 48Khz

Wav2wav6 is ok, but I'm in a mess with the resulted files' names...

I will do some tests and give you the definitive answer ASAP....

kind regards,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

This is how the layout should be :

fl > fl
fr > c
c > fr
sl > lfe
sr > sl
lfe > sr

(Thanks Rasta21 !)

kind regards,

EoH

[Boulder]

Thanks EoH, it's a very fine guide indeed:) I'm converting some older VHS tapes to DVD and I'm using the guide to make a 5.1 AC3 track - the tapes have a surprisingly good stereo sound despite the fact that the material was shot on a handheld camera long time ago.

EDIT: Thanks for the Soft Encode command line tip, I couldn't get the program working in the GUI mode, it just crashed after a short while. The command line works perfect!

Also a note to davidv@plogue: I can reproduce one situation where the CPU usage hits over 100%.
1) Start Bidule
2) Load a layout
3) Open audio file player and enter a file
4) Open audio file recorder and enter the destination file
5) Activate signal processing

Bang, 100% it is;)

If you close the audio file player before going to the audio file recorder and close the recorder before activating signal processing, the CPU usage will remain normal.

Hope this helps.