GUIDE: Stereo to 5-Channel Surround

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Umma


I'm trying to relate to this in real-world terms. The majority of what I've fooled with lately are the live boots. Since the ambience is already there, using room impulses usually serves to muddle the lower-midranges and lows. Drives me nuts sometimes and I lose track of what I've tried and what I haven't tried.

Hi Umma,

I found a plugin, only DX, that can improve your live boots in an incredible way. I understand that a lot of studios use this in a hardware version, but the plugin does the same.
Try to download it somwhere, but if you can't find it, I will upload it on usenet in the group where we always are :-)
The name of the plugin : BBE Sonic Maximizer .
I used it on an Alan Parsons Live bootleg with a very dull sound.
After using the plug...... words fail to describe the improvement !
Use it on the stereo before converting to 5.1.....

kind regards,

EoH

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
This also will go into test-mode !!

Within a few days, I will finalize my big comparison.
Accessible for everyone interested !

This is what I will do :

I took 10 pieces of different music and will process it with all available published methods.
(A quick count in my head : 10)
This will give 10*10 soundfiles.... That's too much with full songs, so from every song 2 minutes......

This must lead to a final conclusion which method is the best for a certain kind of music...


These are the titles I chose :

1. The Blue Danube - J. Strauss
A classic waltz with a lot of violins

2. When You Got A Friend - Peter Green
A blues song.

3. Mixed Emotions - The Rolling Stones
Uptempo rock.

4. Tainted Love - The Flying Pickets
An acapella song with clean voices

5. Unomathemba - Ladysmith Black Mambazo
Acapella with dark voices

6. Spente Le Stelle - Emma Shapplin
Opera voice on modern synths music.

7. Them heavy People - Kate Bush
A complete different voice !

8. The Eve Of War - Jeff Wayne
Rock with a lot of effects between left and right speakers

9. Oxygene 4 - Jean Michel Jarre
Synths

10. Hotel California - The Eagles
Softpop.

Of course it's easy to add more and more styles..... house, dance, hiphop, rap, big choirs...etc. etc.
I just took some titles from my catalog :)

I know it is an ambitious project and it will keep me from the streets for a few days. But I think this is the only way to go, now that the amount of different methods to get from 2.0 to 5.1 is getting out of hand..... :D

Remember.... from every song 2 minutes encoded with at least 10 different methods.......

Let's see which one gives the best results.....

I will yell here when it's ready and available for download in alt.binaries.sounds and alt.binaries.sounds.dts

Of course I'm open for suggestions the methods.
If there is any method nobody uses (anymore), I'll appreciate feedback, because that saves me quite some time !!

I also like to hear feedback on my choices of music...... (but please don't let this thread go into a general "I would chose another song : xxxxxx for song nr. xx" one !!!!!!!!!!)


grtz,

Eye of Horus

It took more time than I thought :(
And with new methods every week..... well, I just choose 10 and already the differences are remarkable ! (And this was the first time ever I wrote a website in PHP, which also took its time !)
I will start uploading tomorrow to alt.binaries.sounds and to alt.binaries.sounds.dts .
Monday : CD 1
Contents : the original stereo files, song1 and song2
Tuesday : CD 2
Contents : song3, song4, song5
Wednesday : CD 3
Contents : song6, song7, song8
Thursday : CD 4
Contents : song9 and song10

The website where you can vote for the best sounding version of a song, will be published after the first CD is posted.
You can only vote once for every song. After you have voted, you can view the results. To see the used methods you have to vote on every song and after that you will see which methods were used.
The combination of the style of music and the used method, delivers different results. Don't think that after hearing one song, that method will give the same good results for the 9 other songs !!

I hope you will all have a lot of fun with this test.

kind regards,

Eye of Horus

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by specise_8472
And the inputs on 3rd order ambiophonic are LRWXYZUVPQ. Outputs are the same. Namely L,R,C,LFE,SL,SR with SC muxed into the two rear surrounds for DTSes use.


File recorder outputs FL,FR,C,LFE,SL,SR.
In your layout from 3th-order to the file recorder, you don't use pin 6 of the recorder, but do use pin4. When decoding the 6 channel wav to 6 separate channels with besweet, pin 4 is the LFE.
This is your layout :
1>1
2>2
3>3
4>4
5>5
nothing to 6.

IMHO it should be...
1>1
2>2
3>3
4>5
5>6
nothing to pin4

Kind regards,

EoH

[Umma]

specise - Thanks, I'll try it all over the next couple of days.

EoH - Come to find out, I have BBE Sonic Maximizer! :) I went digging around on my storage HDD and found it. Installed it just now and experimentation phase will begin after I clean the house... :( Anybody got a wife to spare??

[specise_8472]

EOH you are right about the pinouts.
I have just 'hooked' up the pins to the audio recorder wrong.
I knew this at the time, but didn't chaange them for the release bidule.

The outputs from the VST are the same as before L,R,C,SL,SR. NO LFE.
I typed wrong above. There is no LFE output. Just too quick on the fingers:D

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Umma
specise - Thanks, I'll try it all over the next couple of days.

EoH - Come to find out, I have BBE Sonic Maximizer! :) I went digging around on my storage HDD and found it. Installed it just now and experimentation phase will begin after I clean the house... :( Anybody got a wife to spare??

Hey man,

This is 2004 !!! FCOL, a real man cleans his own mess :D :D

OTOH : did you look on Ebay ?

grtz,

EoH

[Van the man]

How can I add the line in besweet? I have the non-gui version.
But when I click on the file it only shuts down again :confused:

[daphy]

@ Van the man
try CommandBar with 'CTRL+M' you get a seperate window inside of the explorer.
Download located in the 'other apps' section (http://needfulthings.webhop.org/)
(BTW needs MS Frameworks)

CYA Daphy

[Umma]

OTOH : did you look on Ebay ?

Nah, they don't have a "try before you buy" option..." :D


BTW, specise, no file is being created using the crosstalk bidule. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I name a file to be created, I picked a wav song file, I picked one of your SIR impulse files to use...and the directory is still lacking the file I was supposed to create. Processing button is on, so is offline rendering.

Any ideas?

[specise_8472]

Have you checked that Player playing and Recorder recording are Linked?

[Umma]

Thanks! That is exactly what it was. I just took it for granted that it was already linked. :)

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
It took more time than I thought :(


But......... the first CD is uploading right now to alt.binaries.sounds and alt.binaries.sounds.dts !

This is the website where you can vote for the in your opinion best sounded conversion of each song :

POLL (http://members.lycos.nl/dtsac3forum)

The methods used are (in random order) :

1. Surroundboy's
2. Ambisonics (EoH+Kempfand)
3. Synthedit-Gerzon-SIR (Kempfand)
4. CS II (commercial product)
5. SAD51 (Kpex+EoH+Kempfand)
6. WXYZ26 (Specise-8472)
7. Acid Pro (DrPaulNg)
8. VVMic (commercial product)
9. 3th Order (Specise-8472)
10. HRTF-XTC-Panorama-WXYZ (Kempfand)

I used the adviced settings in every methods, some will have a dedicated LFE channel and some don't.

Have fun !

kind regards,

Eye of Horus

[Tantulus]

Originally posted by specise_8472
Have just uploaded to the server under Ambiophonics/3rd_order two new vst's.



I can't seem to find the 3rd order bidule on the server. Is it given another name or do I have to put it together from the VST's etc. I'd really like to give it a try.

[Tantulus]

I was up all last night nursing my PC back from near disaster and I guess I'm not paying attention. I've found the 3rd order in incoming.

Sorry.

Incidentally, 3rd_order.bidule seems to be temporarily inacessible.

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
But......... the first CD is uploading right now to alt.binaries.sounds and alt.binaries.sounds.dts !

This is the website where you can vote for the in your opinion best sounded conversion of each song :

POLL (http://members.lycos.nl/dtsac3forum)

The methods used are (in random order) :

1. Surroundboy's
2. Ambisonics (EoH+Kempfand)
3. Synthedit-Gerzon-SIR (Kempfand)
4. CS II (commercial product)
5. SAD51 (Kpex+EoH+Kempfand)
6. WXYZ26 (Specise-8472)
7. Acid Pro (DrPaulNg)
8. VVMic (commercial product)
9. 3th Order (Specise-8472)
10. HRTF-XTC-Panorama-WXYZ (Kempfand)

I used the adviced settings in every methods, some will have a dedicated LFE channel and some don't.

Have fun !

kind regards,

Eye of Horus


For those of you who don't have access to newsservers : the 4 CD's are also on EDonkey !
Download this filesharing program at http://www.edonkey2000.com , install and do a search on "stereo2DTS".

Don't forget to vote !!!

kind regards,

EoH

[Tantulus]

Originally posted by Eye of Horus
For those of you who don't have access to newsservers : the 4 CD's are also on EDonkey !
Download this filesharing program at http://www.edonkey2000.com , install and do a search on "stereo2DTS".

Don't forget to vote !!!

kind regards,

EoH

Thanks I tried the news groups but I wasn't able to open the files.

[@ndy]

Originally posted by Tantulus
I was up all last night nursing my PC back from near disaster and I guess I'm not paying attention. I've found the 3rd order in incoming.

Sorry.

Incidentally, 3rd_order.bidule seems to be temporarily inacessible.

Well I´m sorry, but my homenet is a little bit messy. I just tried some things out last days so it is possible that you just picked up the time the server (ftp://daphy.mine.nu) was not reachable.
But now it should run again. If you still have problems reaching a file, just send me a PM or leave a note in the incomming folder of our ftp (ftp://daphy.mine.nu) .

For those who mention that the server is too slow:
I´m looking for a better solution (webbased or anything like that and a faster connection) but keep in mind that this is a private interest/project.

To speek in specise`s words:
"Don`t blame me, I only work here" :D

CU
@ndy

[Shayne]

e= Ambisonics second method -LFE(EOH, Kempfand)


Could you elaborate to what exactly this method entitles.

Thanks

Peace

[kempfand]

- "Ambisonics second method" = Page one of this threat
- "-LFE" means no LFE (as in the guide)

The 'Ambisonics 1st method' (not used in the test) was the one using convolution with the Impulse Responses in CoolEdit & Aurora PlugIns.

Cheers,
Andreas

[Shayne]

Thank you for your response.

Personally still favor +LFE we just need to find the perfect normalization process. Minus 5 to 6 db gain to the lfe inputs works on almost all but not all. Would be nice to isolate the lfe channel and normalize independently.

Peace

[kempfand]

Normalisation should be fine if you use it for the pure Ambisonic method as outlined on page 1 of this threat.

Careful however with the newer methods around AmbioPhonics (specie's VST's, as well as all bidules using Stereo Dipoles). Normalising all channels for these will kill the sound image. You can instead use indiviual gain's for L-R, C-SL-SR, and eventually LFE. I mentioned this before for the SIR-convolution: AutoGain Off !

Andreas

[Shayne]

Originally posted by kempfand
Normalisation should be fine if you use it for the pure Ambisonic method as outlined on page 1 of this threat.

Andreas
What do you mean fine? I prefer +LFE and i have been using page 1. I find through the HMN_filter at cut freq of 80 hz and in/out at 1/2 that bidule will many times (if no gains introduced) output this lfe channel as the maximum volume wav therefore it becomes the governing channel in normalization. We need to isolate this channel and normalize it to 95% independently of the other 5 channel normalization process.

Peace

[daphy]

Hi folks,

to get rid off the trouble with provider, traffic, performance we decided to move to another webspace with unlimited traffic and better performence (thx to Romania ;) )

One little issue is left: UPLOAD
We tried to make uploads via php-script possible but the provider 'wouldn´t like that'. So if you want to upload files, please contact @ndy or me (daphy) via PM or use the old FTP (which is still in use - but not all the time online)

The New Ambisonic Server can be found here! (http://needfulthings.webhop.org/)

CYA Daphy

[@ndy]

Hello guys,
the FTP- Server (ftp://daphy.mine.nu) will be down until the 2nd april due to a practice in my new job. You still can download all the needful things (http://needfulthings.webhop.org/) from our new webhosting. Uploads are possible in the old manner from the beginning of april on (or send a PM to Daphy (http://forum.doom9.org/private.php?s=&action=newmessage&userid=33004) if it is urgent :D )

Keep surrounding
Yours
@ndy

[desertrat]

Hi folks,

I've got a couple things on my mind...

1. I've been looking both in the newsgroups and on e-donkey for the tests, couldn't find them on either one. Maybe I'm a bit too late for the e-donkey... don't know.... only got around to installing it this week.

2. Also I would like to know if there are guides someplace for these other methods that are used. I've done the Ambisonic a few times, the I,J & K methods and the CS II as well. Would like to try the others out as well. If someone could point me in the right direction, I'd appreciate it.

3. I've been doing some thinking about the Ambisonic vs J method mixes. There are things I like about both of them - the Ambisonic is very good for ambient music or other music that doesn't required much of a center, it creates a very nice spacious soundfield which is missing from the other type of 5.1 mixes I have tried. On the other hand the J method is good for music that needs to have a center.. but misses that nice soundfield that the Ambisonic gives you. So I've been thinking about a way to combine the two types mixes and was able to do it quite easily. I came up with 2 different bidules yeserday that I am currently testing. So far the results are promising. I will u/l the bidules as soon as the server is back up, I am interested to have some other opinions as well.

cheers,
desertrat

[desertrat]

The FTP server is up...

I have u/l my 2 bidules in the incoming dir

the file is desertrat_stereo2ambisonic_ambi_1.5_combo.rar

which contains

desertrat_stereo2ambisonic_ambi_1.5_combo (ver 2).bidule

desertrat_stereo2ambisonic_ambi_1.5_combo (ver 3).bidule

cheers,
desertrat

[@ndy]

Originally posted by desertrat
The FTP server is up...

I have u/l my 2 bidules in the incoming dir

the file is desertrat_stereo2ambisonic_ambi_1.5_combo.rar

which contains

desertrat_stereo2ambisonic_ambi_1.5_combo (ver 2).bidule

desertrat_stereo2ambisonic_ambi_1.5_combo (ver 3).bidule

cheers,
desertrat

I`ve just uploaded the file to our new server (http://www.daphy.3x.ro) . You`ll find them in the folders "ambisonic" and in "ambiophonics".:D

Bye Bye
@ndy

[desertrat]

Thanks @ndy :)

A couple of comments...

ver 2 seems to have more ambisonic content than ver 3

I'm not sure... but I suspect that the rear channels in ver 3 need to have the gain reduced a bit... still need to do some more testing and then think about how to go about it.

I used the standard ambisonic settings for the ambisonic side of the chain and the J setting for the other side.

cheers,
desertrat

[Umma]

Thanks for the uploads. I will try them out ASAP!

I have found that I usually need to decrease the rear gains about 2 dB. It feels unbalanced if I don't do this on some stuff. I still can't put my finger on just what it is that requires the gain reduction, though, because I don't have to do it all the time. It might just be the size of my room and system, though...Music that has a lot of lead guitar licks usually require the reduction (but not always), whereas music with harmonies in the singing (CSN&Y, Peter, Paul and Mary) do just fine without the reduction. The reduction can usually be done within Bidule, too, but sometimes it sounds like it's getting normalized somewhere (BeSweet?). I'm on the run so much I can't properly analyze what's what and what's happening where. :(

[desertrat]

I have found a couple of problems with ver 3 (ver 2 still seems to be ok).

The center channnel is too low in volume and the rear channels do need to have the gain reduced... looking into it, but don't know if it can be fixed yet....

cheers,
desertrat

[kempfand]

On the other hand the Ambiophonics is good for music that needs to have a center.. but misses that nice soundfield that the Ambisonic give you. I don't won't to be picky, but this statement (as well as the usage of the word Ambiophonic in the last 6 posts of this threat) is just completely wrong, full stop.

Ambiophonic always involves crosstalk-free speaker pairs (Ambiopole or Stereo Dipole) and uses the B-Format approach (Ambisonic) for the surrounds (either by convolution or by panning tools).

To quote from one of Farina's papers: In fact, a modern technique was recently developed by Ralph Glasgal, called Ambiophonics, which aims to the reproduction of a realistic sound field by simultaneous usage of the binaural approach (from which a pair of closely-spaced loudspeakers, with cross-talk canceling filters, can be driven) and of the B-format approach (driving, by convolution with the B-format impulse response, a suitable 3D array of loudspeakers, employing an Ambisonics decoder or other decoding schemes).

Also, Ambiophonics comes in different flavours, but as said, always involves the x-talk cancelled frontal speakers (Stereo Dipole (http://www.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/vap/html/sd.html)).

Cheers,
Andreas

[desertrat]

Sorry if I got something wrong here... just trying to figure out things and obviously don't quite have it right. Thanks for pointing this out.

But that still leaves the question... do we have an Ambiophonic mixing method using plogue bidule and if so which one is it? I thought that the ambi 1.5 and the wxyz26 fell under this category (they are both in the ftp under that dir). Guess I was mistaken.

And could someone help with the first 2 parts... if the stereo2dts tests are still available someplace and if there is some information on the other up mixing methods? I've been able to find information on 1. Surroundboy's, 2. Ambisonics (EoH+Kempfand), 4. CS II (commercial product), 6. WXYZ26 (Specise-8472) 9. 3th Order (Specise-8472), and HRTF-XTC-Panorama-WXYZ (Kempfand)(I think this is the one on the ftp) which of course will keep me busy for awhile... now I got more testing to do :)

thanks,
desertrat

[kempfand]

No problem, desertrat. I was just trying to clarify on what Ambiophonics is. There is also some very good reading on this on Ralph Glasgal's Ambiophonics site (http://www.ambiophonics.org/).

do we have an Ambiophonic mixing method using plogue bidule and if so which one is it? See http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?postid=451435#post451435 , where it mentions specise_8472 x-talk plugin and the set of filters (impulse responses) he created. This will create your frontal Stereo Dipole (L & R speakers). As for the surrounds, you can use the B-Format panner (3_B-Pan VST) and corresponding decoder (3rd_order VST).

I created a different bidule which uses different filters (actually the ones available on Farina's public server). I didn't publish it, but can put it to the server.

In my ears, both specise_8472's and Farina's filters work very well (i.e. there is no "one is better than the other"), yet they use different methods to achieve the x-talk cancel. Up to you to decide which ones you like best.

I am still hoping that someone will write a good guide ;)

---

HRTF-XTC-Panorama-WXYZ (Kempfand)(I think this is the one on the ftp) I think EoH used a bidule which I sent him, which is not on the server, as it uses a commercial product to achieve the x-talk (Spinaudio's 3D Panner Studio). This is yet another method to create the x-talk, but it doesn't give better results than specie's or Farina's filters.

Hope this wasn't too confusing ...
Kind regards,
Andreas

[Eye of Horus]

Originally posted by kempfand
No problem, desertrat. I was just trying to clarify on what Ambiophonics is. There is also some very good reading on this on Ralph Glasgal's Ambiophonics site (http://www.ambiophonics.org/).

See http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?postid=451435#post451435 , where it mentions specise_8472 x-talk plugin and the set of filters (impulse responses) he created. This will create your frontal Stereo Dipole (L & R speakers). As for the surrounds, you can use the B-Format panner (3_B-Pan VST) and corresponding decoder (3rd_order VST).

I created a different bidule which uses different filters (actually the ones available on Farina's public server). I didn't publish it, but can put it to the server.

In my ears, both specise_8472's and Farina's filters work very well (i.e. there is no "one is better than the other"), yet they use different methods to achieve the x-talk cancel. Up to you to decide which ones you like best.

I am still hoping that someone will write a good guide ;)

---

I think EoH used a bidule which I sent him, which is not on the server, as it uses a commercial product to achieve the x-talk (Spinaudio's 3D Panner Studio). This is yet another method to create the x-talk, but it doesn't give better results than specie's or Farina's filters.

Hope this wasn't too confusing ...
Kind regards,
Andreas

Hi Andreas,

Can you put together a bidule which fits this discussion ? And upload it to the FTP server ?
I was thinking of 2 bidules :
1. Stereo Dipole + Ambiophonics for the rears
2. LCR (Gerzon's ?) and Ambiophonics for the rears

back to work......

our thanks will be great :-))

EoH

[kempfand]

Here is the outline of a true, complete Ambiophonics bidule, which implements:
- A frontal Ambiopole (Stereo Dipole)
- Ambisonics for the surround speakers, 2 in this specific case (LS, RS)

You can download the bidule, filters, and well as 2 pictures for illustration of the settings here: http://www.app.demon.nl/20040330_-_XTC_01.rar (thanks for the hosting w direct link) or from web-based FTP interface (http://needfulthings.webhop.org/).

Please note:

- This is a prototype in order to get you started. I personally use different set-ups, as I use Center Surround speaker(s), but you can easily adjust the posted bidule.

- The left tree of the bidule is for the Stereo Dipole, the right tree is for the B-Format (2nd order Ambisonic) surrounds.

- The Stereo Dipole is created by x-talk cancelling filters (impulse responses) which are from Angelo Farina's public web server. They were employed in the original Stereo Dipole setup by David Wareing (one of the originators of this methodology). These are optimised for +/- 10 deg spacing of the frontal speakers (totalling up to 20 deg), and for "normal" (not binaural) recordings (no HRTF inverse filtering here). Again: If you use them on "regular" speaker setup's (such as +/- 30 deg, they will not work).

- As mentioned before, be aware that a Stereo Dipole is the basis of the Ambiophonics method (look at Ralph Glasgal's great site (http://www.ambiophonics.org/)).

- specise_8472 implemented another methodology for the x-talk cancellation (look at
his posting on this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?postid=451435#post451435) and the following posts). His most recent VST's and filters have been posted on the FTP by Daphy & @ndy (ftp://daphy.mine.nu/), and are now available on the web-based interface (http://needfulthings.webhop.org/). My personal opinion is that species' VST's (x-talk and others) as well as filters work very well, so you might want to also try his setup.

- The Ambiophonic prototye bidule uses all free VST's (i.e. SIR for the convolution). This makes things a bit tricky, as SIR has a 8960 samples latency, which makes it necessary to use 'dummy' instances of SIR in order to keep the Stereo Dipole and the Surrounds in-sync.
Things are much easier if you use commercial convolver VST's, such as the new state-of-the-art Voxengo Pristine Space convolver, which solved all these problems. Voxengo can convolve 8 impulse responses simultaneously, and much more efficiently than SIR.

- Usage of the SIR convolvers: An important point is to disable the autoranging feature of SIR, setting manually the gain, and ensuring that the two instances have exactly the same gain.
-- Always use 0 dB for Wet, and -6dB for Dry.
-- As for the dummy instances of SIR, don't load any filter, and use 'Off' for Wet, and 0 dB for Dry.
-- See enclosed pictures for details.

- Surrounds: I use Gerzonic's Panorama and Emigrator for the surrounds. They both apply 2nd order Ambisonic.
As mentioned above, the prototype bidule only decodes to 2 surrounds (SL, SR), but you can adjust this if you have 1-2 Center Surround speakers. Be aware that for a proper Ambisonic system feeding the surrounds, you will need more speakers (sweet-spot problem with less than 5-6 speakers at the min), but since Ambisonic in this case is 'just' used to 'support' the Stereo Dipole, this might be ok.

- Credits: This 'poor man's Ambiophonic' would not be possible without the pioneering research of Gerzon, Farina, Glasgal, Miller, Kirkeby, Nelson, Hamada, Wareing, Dalenbäck, Leese, just to name a few. Needless to say that I have enormous respect for these people, as well as for the creators of great software tools such as Plogue Bidule, SIR, Gerzonic, CATT.

- Final remarks:
-- I think that you will never find filters that x-talk cancel well on all types music, that is free of coloration on all music, and works for all people. Up to each of us to experiment and see where it works well.
-- You need good (!), matched speakers for the Stereo Dipole to work well (i.e. balanced frequency response curve).

- Suggested Music: I've found that the Stereo Dipole works extremely well on Pink Floyd's The Final Cut, as well as on Roger Waters' Pros And Cons Of Hitchhiking (and possibly also on Amused to Death). Give it a try if you have these handy.

Hope this is helpful,
Andreas

[daphy]

Hi folks,

I have uploaded the file to www.needfulthings.webhop.org , you will find it in folder ambisonic>latest!

kempfand & me are thinking about a change in structure of this website :confused: - mixing the methodes leads to sorting problems :D

-> So this target folder could be moved very soon on an other place :o

Thx to EOH for quick help!

CYA Daphy

[PeterC]

Hi all

I seem to have completely lost the ball with all these
new bidules flying around, haven't read this thread for a while
. I tried the "complete Ambiophonics bidule" with Rocket Man by Elton John, I don't know if I did something wrong, I had trouble locating
the vocal when listening, the rears sounded very loud and it was like Elton's voice was floating around me. Perhaps somebody slipped something in my tea ;-)

Anyway, could anybody please tell me what is the current so-called "best" or preferred method that utilizes the center channel?

I also tested Desertrat's V2 and 3, but is the Besweet
commandline output the usual one for this? this confused me.
Surely I did something wrong since both output a file with
..well one surround was like a phantom effect - very very quiet
, the other surround was loud as the front. Rest were normal
sounding. Might this have something to do with also my program
not having a recognizable 5.01 to WXYZ_O plugin . The bidule still didn't recognize it after installing and I chose to replace it from the list (I have it installed), and I tested each of the three settings and always got the same oddly quiet rear.

What am I doing wrong :S ?


EDIT: Addition, on desertrat's it's the right-surround
that always comes out as a total fuzzy quiet piece :S

[Shayne]

Quote "the vocal when listening, the rears sounded very loud" = new amp

all is here and you should add help. Please read and look for linkz and all methods are there ........... the first page and 25 after is all you have to read here.

All sounds so good at the farm

Peace

[Lex55]

Nice results

Tested with Eric Clapton Layla unpluged

Trying to Add LFE AS Well Thinking on crossover off 60hz.

[kempfand]

thinking on crossover off 60 Hz Actually, if you use the bidule for the Stereo Dipole I posted in the first place, you should put things to 0 Hz (i.e. no cross-over at all).

Reason: Someone kindly made me aware that I made a mistake in the x-talk bidule I posted.

Actually, x-talk cancellation is needed at low frequencies but not so much at the high frequencies. At high frequencies the head itself inhibits the x-talk since it is larger than the wavelength. If at all, the cross-over filters should be used at high frequencies, not at low frequencies as outlined in my original bidule. Guess I had too much Wisky when I did it ...

Anyhow: I took the cross-over filters out for now (post corrected, as well as bidule in the zip-file).

Kind regards,
Andreas

[Lex55]

Got some nice results using your new enlightments

My next test will be combining First method with last one

Finale objective is crating good 5.1 DD from my Produced films.

[specise_8472]

Have just uploaded into FTP server under Incoming\Ambiophonics

Allinone.dll

My latest offering.
Basically it is as stated, All in one package.
Stereo in 5 channel out.(Usual ordering L,R,C,SL,SR)

It uses my own custom method to get true? stereo surrounds. Not the same sounding as is the case now with the Ambi methods.
It still uses Ambisonics to compute the surrounds and Center Front. But with my own twist.

BTW for the Neo6 fans, the SC is mixed into the surrounds as I normally do.

[daphy]

Hi folks,

thx specise_8472 for the new methode -> the old FTP is unbelieveable slow - stay tuned - I will upload the file to new webspace within a couple of hours ;)

CYA Daphy

[Tantulus]

I have been following this thread for several months now and I'm afraid that I'm becoming hopelessly confused.

Part of the problem was that I was unable to download the test files from the newsgroup (I never used one before) nor could I obtain them from donkey2000.

I would appreciate a little hand-holding in my attempts to master converting stereo into surround sound.

Essentially, I am interested in encoding my stereo orchestral CD's into dts. I wish to emulate a symphony or chamber hall with a bit of ambience.

What I have been doing is making an image file of my CD, run it through Bidule and use wav2wav6 to convert the resultant file into 6 mono files and then use softencode to encode into dts. I use Wave2Wave6 because the CD images are usually to large for besweet to handle. I understand that the ultimate result is a matter of taste but I would appreciate some suggestions as to which method will give me a somewhat broad space with a hint of reverb but not to much gain in the rear surround.

I've noticed that most tests were done on vocal or band tracks and I find that with symphonic music I'm swamped with sound from all directions. I've developed quite a coaster collection and I would like to narrow the possibilites a little.

If anyone has experience with orchestral music and has some recommondations as to which methods would be most useful I will be greatly appreciative.

Thanks again and keep up the good work.

[kempfand]

First of all, if you don't know (yet) which is a good set-up for you, I'd recommend that you use small extracts of the music (1 minute max; 30 secs is usually enough). You can collate some snippets (i.e. 10 of them coming from various CD's, having 30 secs each) and use these for testing purposes until you have a setup which is good for you. This will save you lot's of time, plus you will learn to get a feeling what different bidules do.

As for ochestral music, I don't want to discourage you, but you might be out of luck here ... Reason is that the music you use is not anechoic (dry) and already has the characteristics (reverb, ambience) of the listening space / concert hall where it was recorded. This is especially the case for orchestral music.

Another thing to keep in mind is, that some people will not like the room-sound that Ambisonics creates (even if it is correct!) ... This is because many people are too much used to what what the "Tonmeisters" (German expression for soundmasters) usually produce on current multichannel dolby mixes.

Also keep in mind that most people are so used to stereo, such that hearing too much of the room won't sell (even if it is right). Just my opinion ...

You might want to try the VST created by specise_8472 (either the original one called 'WXYZ_to_5.0', or the latest one just announced a few posts above), as it keeps the stereo image for L & R speakers, yet adds some nice "room" through C, SL, SR.

Good luck,
Andreas

[Lex55]

Few weeks ago i was in the same feeling you are now.

As my recommendation is just start at the first method as guided in the first page by Eye of Horus

Play with it so you will learn the pros and cons of that guide.

Only after you familiar with that you might think of starting upgrading your results following expert's remarks.

Good Luck

[Shayne]

Originally posted by Tantulus
I've developed quite a coaster collection and I would like to narrow the possibilites a little.


Well i would buy a 60 buck Hercules sound card for my computer and optical out to my amp. ie use my computer as the dvd player. This would produce absolutely no coasters and give you 100 gig dvd's which makes changing a lot less frequent.

[rc]

Hi Specise,

I dl your new method All In One.Rar and it came out only a
file "allinone.dll". Pls let me know how to use it. Is it just
a plug in for Winamp????

Thank you


rc:D

[Tantulus]

First of all, thanks for the earlier advice, Andreas, I will start experimenting with the other VST's. I guess what I'm trying to do is take away the stereo sweet spot and translate the recorded ambience to give the recording a fuller feel. The first thing I did was to adjust the initial stero2ambi bidule with LFE and 6 channel gain to decrease the surround. Still not satisfied.

BTW, I read Ralph Glasgal's article and decided I am asking too much out of 5.1. However, I did try your Ambiophonics method even though my room couldn't accomodate a 20 degree separation of my speakers. I used your first bidule (the server was down so I couldn't use your second bidule). Anyway, the results still allowed me to localize a solo instrument (although the instrument seemed somewhat broader than life) and the surround effects were wonderfully warm, giving a decent illusion of ambience.

If possible could you please PM me your bidule with the corrected X-talk while the server is down. Also, any more info on this method would be very interesting. I am especially interested in the use of impulse responses in your method. I want to apologize in advance but I'd like a little more hand-holding until I can get better familiarized with ambisonics/ambiphonics.

Sincerly,
Scott

[kempfand]

If possible could you please PM me your bidule with the corrected X-talk while the server is down The hosting with EoH now contains the corrected bidule and pictures: http://www.app.demon.nl/20040330_-_XTC_01.rar. But it will only work well for +/- 10 deg speaker setup.

On howto create the B-Format:I am especially interested in the use of impulse responses in your method. I often use the ones outlined on Angelo Farina's public server. The link is in his guide: Conversion between UHJ and B-format (http://www.angelofarina.it/aurora/conversion_between_uhj_and_b.htm#Audiomulch), and it uses the SIR convolver.

State of the art these days is the Voxengo's Pristine Space 1.1, which can convolve simultaneous 8 indepdendent filters, and even has a "zero latency mode". There is a nice outline for AudioMulch, also on Farina's public server: Voxengo-Bformat (http://pcfarina.eng.unipr.it/public/Voxengo-Bformat/).

I want to apologize in advance but I'd like a little more hand-holding until I can get better familiarized with ambisonics/ambiphonics. No problem, but I suggest you start with EoH's excellent guide on the 1st page of this threat. Having done so will help you to understand the basics (i.e. what is done why), and you will later be able to compare (by listening) where more advanced methods differ.

If you really have time (now or later), I highly recommend tha CATT-F (FIReVerb) package. For pure Ambisonics, it currently delivers the best results (at the expense of slower speed, and no real-time processing as with Bidule). You can get a fully-working test-license, which is valid for 1 months (I believe). The package also contains an excellent Help-file and even a small Ambisonics tutorial (of which I learnt alot). Link: CATT-F / FIReVerb (http://www.catt.se/the_suite.htm)

Good luck & in a hurry,
Andreas