Inexpensive BD-R Media

[ni9ht_5ta1k3r]

here in Australia i can find a place that sells a 5-pack for $14 AUD or $2.80 AUD per disc....that's the cheapest i have seen so far. many other places are asking $5-6 AUD per disc while major chains have been asking $15 AUD per disc.

[vze2mp9g]

Sorry for not making it easier with a link. I simply do not want anyone mistaking my enthusiasm for these discs for anything other than sharing the goodness :). Here (http://www.mediamegamall.com/smartblu-m-260.html?osCsid=5186a2149609c5a9877eb54bd32bef25) is the duplication supplier where you can find the lowest price. They are also available elsewhere, but only in reseller quantities(600+). All the 4x 25GB SmartBlu discs listed are the same disc I was speaking of.
They also have a ridiculously low price on Falcon 25GB BD-RE's. Recording quality is excellent on those too. I will never use up the 25 spindle that I bought, but couldn't resist the price.

Thank you for the Link, I just purchased Falcon 25Gbs. You've been very helpful. :D

[DVDean]

Thank you for the Link, I just purchased Falcon 25Gbs. You've been very helpful. :D

You're quite welcome. You could also buy the same BD-RE with a TDK label on it for well over $3.00 each :). Quite a bargain at $1.49ea./shipped. I'm sure many people don't know that you can still get Made in Japan TDK BD-R/BD-RE quite easily. You just need to know that their new address is in the UAE, and they come in spindles made by FTI/Falcon ;). And Smartblu 25GB are FTI's.

[Cloudane]

Trying to work out the consensus here :)

I get my media from scan.co.uk

The last lot I got were these "AONE" branded ones: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/10pcs-cakebox-aone-blu-ray-bdr-ff-10c-25gb-full-face-printable
They identify as Philips R04 (HTL) in DVD Identifier

They burned fine and read fine at the time (burned at 4x using a BDR-205), but 6 months later they're unreadable - if I tilt them in bright light, I can see a sort of "decay" of the recording layer (odd since I thought HTL wasn't organic), in the sort of pattern that liquid would make if it were spilled on it.

So avoid those for anything long term.

Reading all the way through the thread, Ritek and Verbatim seem to get mentioned a lot but on both sides of the story. Thing is the Verbatims are expensive and they're LTH which people seem to think best avoided.

These are the Traxdata branded Riteks I'm looking at (RITE801)
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/10pcs-cake-box-ritek-(traxdata)-rite801-25gb-bd-r-4x-blu-ray-single-sided-printable-130min

Wondering if they're any good... failing that I might just have to give up on Blu-Ray as I don't like spending £1 a pop only to find they're unusable 6 months later. Not sure I want to be gambling close to £2 a go on Verbatims either.

[RobertM]

Thing is the Verbatims are expensive and they're LTH which people seem to think best avoided.


Verbatim makes both HTL and LTH. Generally you can assume that they are HTL unless the description specifically states LTH.

[Cloudane]

Ah right, yeah, I looked up the model number of the ones at Scan (which are twice the price of the Riteks) and they appear to be LTH

[DVDean]

Trying to work out the consensus here :)

I get my media from scan.co.uk

The last lot I got were these "AONE" branded ones: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/10pcs-cakebox-aone-blu-ray-bdr-ff-10c-25gb-full-face-printable
They identify as Philips R04 (HTL) in DVD Identifier

They burned fine and read fine at the time (burned at 4x using a BDR-205), but 6 months later they're unreadable - if I tilt them in bright light, I can see a sort of "decay" of the recording layer (odd since I thought HTL wasn't organic), in the sort of pattern that liquid would make if it were spilled on it.

So avoid those for anything long term.

Reading all the way through the thread, Ritek and Verbatim seem to get mentioned a lot but on both sides of the story. Thing is the Verbatims are expensive and they're LTH which people seem to think best avoided.

These are the Traxdata branded Riteks I'm looking at (RITE801)
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/10pcs-cake-box-ritek-(traxdata)-rite801-25gb-bd-r-4x-blu-ray-single-sided-printable-130min

Wondering if they're any good... failing that I might just have to give up on Blu-Ray as I don't like spending £1 a pop only to find they're unusable 6 months later. Not sure I want to be gambling close to £2 a go on Verbatims either.

I've been discussing better affordable Ritek and MBI PhilipR04 options with friends in Europe. Yes, I have heard that those Aone's are junk. These (http://www.aprmedia.com/product.php?pid=7778) are one of the better options. They are also available here (http://shop.cd-writer.com/catalog/falcon-bdr-4x-consumer-inkjet-25-pack-p-242879.html?manufacturers_id=1743) even cheaper, though they sold out a few days ago, don't know when they will be back in stock. I know of people who have found both versions of the Riteks to fail much too quickly. I think I would stay away from those. Philips branded INFOMER30 BD-R's in Europe are looking encouraging, but have not been around long enough to have much long term life feedback.

[Rich86]

The first spindle was reasonably priced - and worked fine. Both the 2nd and 3rd spindles were very inexpensive due to coupons/rebates, which is why I bought them since the 1st spindle was working so well. In hindsight, it sure seems like Optodisc and their brand name marketing partners (Merax & Inland, in my case) were simply unloading problematic product. I guess that's what got me annoyed and determined to hold them accountable in at least a small way.
I will open and try to use this 3rd spindle and see what we've got - something good like the 1st spindle - or trash like the 2nd. Then I can decide who to pester for a refund or replacement - Fry's, Inland (who has already agreed to honor their 1 year warranty) or Optodisc.

Meritline received the bad spindle of OTCBDR media purchased there and posted the amount paid for it to my account for me to spend.
The 3rd spindle of OTCBDR media was just as useless as the 2nd. These were purchased at Fry's under the Inland brand name. I tried to return them there - and got turned away (not a surprise, but it was worth a shot). Inland had already given me a RMA # to return them since they have a 1 year warranty, so they are on the way back to Inland via USPS "media mail" for replacement. One can only hope Inland has since changed suppliers for media sold under the Inland brand name and another bad spindle of OTCBDR doesn't show up on my doorstep . . .

I am currently using "Imation" brand inkjet printable media - internal code Ritek - working perfectly fine - $20 for a 25 disc spindle @ Fry's.
Ritek branded inkjet printable media is $18 + $1 shipping for a 25 disc spindle @ Newegg.

[DVDean]

Sorry to hear that. Seems doubtful they will send back anything better. But one can hope.

If you must spend that Meritline credit on BD-R's and likely to go with cheap, the Philips 4x inkjets have been a decent grade of CMCMAG BA3's. Better gamble than any of the others I see in the $1.00/ea. range over there.

[oglaf]

Does anyone have a line on where I can get TDKBLD-RBD media at a Southern California RETAIL outlet? I have some Falcon 6x media on the way from a mail-order company, but I'd like to get started burning good discs tonight if I can.

[DVDean]

Does anyone have a line on where I can get TDKBLD-RBD media at a Southern California RETAIL outlet? I have some Falcon 6x media on the way from a mail-order company, but I'd like to get started burning good discs tonight if I can.I know that feeling :D. You finally reach that point where you're done risking your time and money on spinning the BD-R Wheel of Chance.

At retail you would have to get lucky enough to run across some stock of made in Japan or made in UAE TDK Professional spindles. Hope someone from your area knows of a stash :). Falcon's are not and will not be sold at the retail level. This is how they are capable of maintaining their no compromise/no outsourcing business model. TDK and others that sell at retail need to give you cheap in order to make any profit in that market. Here (http://orders.mediadistributors.com/Catalog.asp?categoryname=Bulk%2C+Printable+Blu-ray+Discs) is one location in Southern California for Falcons. Don't hesitate to contact Fred Perez fred.perez@falconrak.com for other professional suppliers in your area. He has been quite determined to keep Falcon USA media at a true professional quality level as other media companies struggle with losing money at the retail level and end up cutting the quality of their supposed "Professional" media to remain profitable.

[Ghitulescu]

I'm not that sure that the manufacturers actually have or implement a grading system (quality A for pro, quality B for public). I think it's either/or. Optical discs are not the mainstream storage option, so this market is small compared to the customers' one.

[DVDean]

I'm not that sure that the manufacturers actually have or implement a grading system (quality A for pro, quality B for public). I think it's either/or. Optical discs are not the mainstream storage option, so this market is small compared to the customers' one.

In fact, they do. Optical media manufacturing facilities spend a great deal of money for systems like DVD CATS and Pulstec BD-ODU to keep track of their media's quality and grade them. The grade is determined by many factors. A professional media manufacturer like FTI/Falcon who chooses to keep their materials consistent and manufactures all their own media in-house has grades based on things like stamper wear. Other manufacturers will reduce manufacturing costs and produce cheaper grades by a number of means like using thinner dye/reflective layer, running production machines at faster than ideal rates, using older production lines, or using lower quality/recycled polycarbonate. The professional optical media market is still quite substantial. Video production houses and professional duplication services among others still have need for high quality media that results in 100% usable product for them. Businesses/organizations are still using them for redundant archival records.

[Ghitulescu]

Well, you might be right, but I said a different thing: I am not talking about grading "after" (as in sampling the batches and those not fulfilling some criteria be sold as B grade), I was talking about having two lines: one or more for premium products (that must fulfil all these criteria) and one or more for consumer ones (whose products may not reach the pro criteria by design, yet still be of a good quality). A priori grading.

Optical media, to my knowledge, was never the main archival media (they are simply too small for big archives, and for regular backups they are not erasable), but yes, those corporations/organisations do still need them because they are compatible with "regular" workstations, remote located small departments may share confidential data on discs, and so on. Also small companies that are required by the law to keep archives, like medical labs or notarial offices, use either MODs or magnetic tapes. But I am located in Europe, things may be different in the USA.

[DVDean]

I'm sorry if I was not clear enough. Manufacturers are intentionally producing A priory B and C grade media to be sold at the retail/consumer level. Price competition and mark-ups through the retail supply chain require that they use the manufacturing cost-saving and quality-reducing measures that I mentioned along with others to remain profitable and competitive with media sold at the retail/consumer level. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but the difference between true professional quality media and consumer media is very real and intentional and created by A priory manufacturing/material choices by manufacturers.

[Adbear]

Trying to work out the consensus here :)

I get my media from scan.co.uk

The last lot I got were these "AONE" branded ones: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/10pcs-cakebox-aone-blu-ray-bdr-ff-10c-25gb-full-face-printable
They identify as Philips R04 (HTL) in DVD Identifier

They burned fine and read fine at the time (burned at 4x using a BDR-205), but 6 months later they're unreadable - if I tilt them in bright light, I can see a sort of "decay" of the recording layer (odd since I thought HTL wasn't organic), in the sort of pattern that liquid would make if it were spilled on it.

So avoid those for anything long term.

Reading all the way through the thread, Ritek and Verbatim seem to get mentioned a lot but on both sides of the story. Thing is the Verbatims are expensive and they're LTH which people seem to think best avoided.

These are the Traxdata branded Riteks I'm looking at (RITE801)
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/10pcs-cake-box-ritek-(traxdata)-rite801-25gb-bd-r-4x-blu-ray-single-sided-printable-130min

Wondering if they're any good... failing that I might just have to give up on Blu-Ray as I don't like spending £1 a pop only to find they're unusable 6 months later. Not sure I want to be gambling close to £2 a go on Verbatims either.
Don't buy the traxdata, unless they've improved in the past couple of years they have a high decay rate, over 70% of mine from 2-3 years ago now all have read errors on them. If you're in the UK and looking for a good cheap brand I've found PiiData(Ritek) seem to be very good and stable as long as you don't burn faster than their rated speed, I've been using them since they first came out and so far (over 3 years down the line and well over 800 discs) all of the discs still work (I know this because I've just recently copied them RAID box)
You can get them from here
http://www.optical-disc.co.uk/index.html

[Rich86]

Meritline received the bad spindle of OTCBDR media purchased there and posted the amount paid for it to my account for me to spend.
The 3rd spindle of OTCBDR media was just as useless as the 2nd. These were purchased at Fry's under the Inland brand name. I tried to return them there - and got turned away (not a surprise, but it was worth a shot). Inland had already given me a RMA # to return them since they have a 1 year warranty, so they are on the way back to Inland via USPS "media mail" for replacement. One can only hope Inland has since changed suppliers for media sold under the Inland brand name and another bad spindle of OTCBDR doesn't show up on my doorstep . . .

I am currently using "Imation" brand inkjet printable media - internal code Ritek - working perfectly fine - $20 for a 25 disc spindle @ Fry's.
Ritek branded inkjet printable media is $18 + $1 shipping for a 25 disc spindle @ Newegg.

My replacement spindle of BD-R media arrived from Inland. This is the warranty replacement for the OPT media purchased at Fry's. It is not the same media as what I sent them (maybe good news?). Unfortunately, it is also not ink jet printable media, which is my preference and what I sent them for replacement. It has a blue label branded "ProHT powered by Inland". I read elsewhere this may be Philips media, but I haven't opened it yet to check it out. I may try to unload it for inkjet printable media. But, at least I have successfully gotten a refund or replacement for both spindles of bad OTCBDR media.

[Ghitulescu]

Don't buy the traxdata, unless they've improved in the past couple of years they have a high decay rate, over 70% of mine from 2-3 years ago now all have read errors on them.

That is a non-sense, a company that does not manufacture something cannot "improve". Can only change to a better supplier :), but generally they change to a cheaper one.

[Adbear]

That is a non-sense, a company that does not manufacture something cannot "improve". Can only change to a better supplier :), but generally they change to a cheaper one.No it's not a 'nonsense', the quality of the discs they receive even from the same supplier may have improved, and even if they get them supplied by a different supplier the quality of the disc they supply under their own brand name may still have either improved or degraded. Just because they don't manufacture the disc themselves doesn't mean the quality of the discs they put out under their brand name can't improve or degrade.

[Rich86]

My replacement spindle of BD-R media arrived from Inland. This is the warranty replacement for the OPT media purchased at Fry's. It is not the same media as what I sent them (maybe good news?). Unfortunately, it is also not ink jet printable media, which is my preference and what I sent them for replacement. It has a blue label branded "ProHT powered by Inland". I read elsewhere this may be Philips media, but I haven't opened it yet to check it out. I may try to unload it for inkjet printable media. But, at least I have successfully gotten a refund or replacement for both spindles of bad OTCBDR media.

I heard back from Inland Media concerning my replacement "branded" media vs. the defective inkjet printable media I sent them for replacement. Quote follows:

They are from a different (better) manufacturer but the main reason for the change on the front was to promote our ProHT brand name actually. ProHT is going to attempt to mimic Inland in having the best price, but they are trying to raise the bar on quality a little bit so they will have a better reputation quality wise. ProHT products should have a much lower defect rate while still maintaining very competitive prices to our original Inland products (which we still carry in most catagories).

However, in the case of this product, all of the older Inland model have been sold or recycled already and the only new ones we will get are pre-printed with the ProHT logo.

So, it sounds like they (Inland) realized they had a quality problem with the OTCBDR media and have taken steps to head in a different direction with a different manufacturer as a result. I haven't opened or used media from the replacement spindle yet, but will report back on what it is and how it works when I do.

[setarip_old]

all of the older Inland model have been sold or recycledA skeptic might interpret that statement as Inland knowingly sold defective media...

[Ghitulescu]

No it's not a 'nonsense', the quality of the discs they receive even from the same supplier may have improved, and even if they get them supplied by a different supplier the quality of the disc they supply under their own brand name may still have either improved or degraded. Just because they don't manufacture the disc themselves doesn't mean the quality of the discs they put out under their brand name can't improve or degrade.

No, I said something different. The quality, to be compared, must be referenced. Each burner has a different, optimised strategy for each MID (at least one hopes it's like that). If ones buys a Ferrari over his old Dodge, it's not an improvement of the Dodge. If one buys Make 4 over Make 3 of a Dodge, and its quality surpasses the older one, this is an improvement.

Changing from a supplier to another one is not an improvement. It's a new start.

Let's play this mental game: Maybe the Optiarc yields better results with OPTODISC while the LGs have very good burns with INFOMEDIAR, but not viceversa. So, for LGs a change from OPTO to INFO is an "improvement", but not for Optiarc.
Ah, if one uses newer batches of OPTODISC (same MID, thus same strategy) in the same burner and the results are better - now this is an improvement.

[DVDean]

So, it sounds like they (Inland) realized they had a quality problem with the OTCBDR media and have taken steps to head in a different direction with a different manufacturer as a result. I haven't opened or used media from the replacement spindle yet, but will report back on what it is and how it works when I do.

Anxious to hear what you find in that spindle. The suspense is killing me :D. Hopefully they did not take a tiny step in the right direction with Ritek or MBI and chose CMC or Infomedia. Their consumer grades have been looking a little more reliable recently.

I am not getting my hopes up, though. Their statement "ProHT products should have a much lower defect rate" reflects the sad truth about most of what reseller brands are selling us. The media they can buy cheaply enough to make a profit on still has an acceptable "defect rate".

[Cloudane]

I've been discussing better affordable Ritek and MBI PhilipR04 options with friends in Europe. Yes, I have heard that those Aone's are junk. These (http://www.aprmedia.com/product.php?pid=7778) are one of the better options. They are also available here (http://shop.cd-writer.com/catalog/falcon-bdr-4x-consumer-inkjet-25-pack-p-242879.html?manufacturers_id=1743) even cheaper, though they sold out a few days ago, don't know when they will be back in stock. I know of people who have found both versions of the Riteks to fail much too quickly. I think I would stay away from those. Philips branded INFOMER30 BD-R's in Europe are looking encouraging, but have not been around long enough to have much long term life feedback.

Cool, I'll bear those links in mind, thanks.

Don't buy the traxdata, unless they've improved in the past couple of years they have a high decay rate, over 70% of mine from 2-3 years ago now all have read errors on them. If you're in the UK and looking for a good cheap brand I've found PiiData(Ritek) seem to be very good and stable as long as you don't burn faster than their rated speed, I've been using them since they first came out and so far (over 3 years down the line and well over 800 discs) all of the discs still work (I know this because I've just recently copied them RAID box)
You can get them from here
http://www.optical-disc.co.uk/index.html

That's exactly what I was looking for - something tried and tested in the long term, and well priced! :thanks:

Ritek seem to have a fairly mixed reputation, but it's probably the most palatable of the options with such feedback in mind. Can't be any worse than the Aone (Philips R04)s.

[Ghitulescu]

I use Riteks 4x (cheap), no problems at all, look solid built, too.

[Adbear]

No, I said something different. The quality, to be compared, must be referenced. Each burner has a different, optimised strategy for each MID (at least one hopes it's like that). If ones buys a Ferrari over his old Dodge, it's not an improvement of the Dodge. If one buys Make 4 over Make 3 of a Dodge, and its quality surpasses the older one, this is an improvement.

Changing from a supplier to another one is not an improvement. It's a new start.

Let's play this mental game: Maybe the Optiarc yields better results with OPTODISC while the LGs have very good burns with INFOMEDIAR, but not viceversa. So, for LGs a change from OPTO to INFO is an "improvement", but not for Optiarc.
Ah, if one uses newer batches of OPTODISC (same MID, thus same strategy) in the same burner and the results are better - now this is an improvement.
Why do people always resort to these wildly inaccurate car analogies? Using your own analogy, Make 4 uses components sourced from a different manufacturer than Make 3, therefore going by your argument that can't be an improvement as the components come from a different manufacturer even though they are branded as Dodge.
The disc are supplied under their own brand name therefore their own brand can improve, makes no difference if they buy them from the same supplier and the discs get better or if they buy them from another manufacturer altogether, the disc sold as their own brand will have still improved if the new supply is better. This also has nothing to do with burner versus disc brand as the discs were burnt across a range of burners at the time and they worked at the time and have since degraded over time.

[Rich86]

A skeptic might interpret that statement as Inland knowingly sold defective media...

Well, they surely knew it was bad at some point (probably when the phone started ringing off the hook in their technical support department and their email in-boxes filled up). I imagine folks like me cost them a bit of money also, as we insisted on replacement or refunds within their 1 year warranty period . . :-)
I will say, however, that Inland was very cooperative and responsive to the problem once I contacted them. I got the RMA # promptly, and received replacement product promptly after shipping them the defective media.

I had asked the person I was communicating with if he knew what brand model the new media was, and got the following response:

"Unfortunately I do not have that information available off hand.
These discs should work more like 98% of the time given the general manufacturing defect rate, but generally it will be a whole spindle that's defective not just 1 or 2 discs.
Hopefully this new manufacturer proves to be more reliable than the last one. Let me know how it goes."


Sounds pretty clear to me they knew they had a problem. The 25 disc spindle I had was purchased for $12 after a $15 rebate from Inland . . so . . maybe at some point someone knew they were dumping marginal goods into the market. They would not be the first - and won't be the last.

The replacement media they sent me has an internal code of "PHILIP-R04-000". The spindle has a made in China sticker on the bottom. I think someone commented that Philips media was actually manufactured by CMC in Taiwan. I'm glad to not see an "OTC" code anywhere!

[DVDean]

The replacement media they sent me has an internal code of "PHILIP-R04-000". The spindle has a made in China sticker on the bottom. I think someone commented that Philips media was actually manufactured by CMC in Taiwan. I'm glad to not see an "OTC" code anywhere!

Moser Baer India(MBI) bought out Philips optical media branch and manufactures PHILIPR04's. CMC has nothing to do with Philips media. I have not heard of MBI doing any production in China. So those are quite likely unlicensed "fake" PHILIPR04's.
Keep a close eye on those. They have basically already told you how long to expect them to last with their 1 year warranty. Chinese BD-R are not currently being sold as "Pro" by anyone else for good reason. Talk about marketing hype ;).

[Ghitulescu]

Chinese BD-R are not currently being sold as "Pro" by anyone else for good reason. Talk about marketing hype ;).

I don't know exactly for this type of disc, however the most crappy things I have ever seen were proudly labelled Professional, Professional quality or For professional uses or similar slogans. Look on eBay for professional - you'll see what I mean :)

[DVDean]

I don't know exactly for this type of disc, however the most crappy things I have ever seen were proudly labelled Professional, Professional quality or For professional uses or similar slogans. Look on eBay for professional - you'll see what I mean :)

I stand corrected :D. I have seen some pathetic Taiwan-made "Professional" media. I'm unfortunately willing to believe you if you say you've seen MIC "Pro".
FTI actually went into business 6 years ago in response to this decline in the standard of what is being called "Professional" media. Large investment in state-of-the-art "clean-room" technology at their facilities for all operations from production to print coating to packaging, unique in the world of optical media production. And minimum quality of media leaving the factory required to meet book spec. In 2008, with high-end production facilities already in place, they were the first company outside of Japan to begin Blu-ray production, using the best of Japanese materials and technology. Very glad that their business model proved to be sustainable and I have not had to put up with an "acceptable defect rate" with my media for several years now.

[Ghitulescu]

I was not talking about FTI media. I generally do not discuss things I don't know.
I said that many things that are more or less junk (Teleshopping quality) are labelled as Professional or similar.
I don't think that my negative comments on things that have been labelled as professional do cause to the real pro products. At least in Germany they are sold through specific channels, from profi to profi, to reuse a slogan.

[Cloudane]

Just burned a couple of my new PiData (Ritek) 4X discs and suddenly realised Toast said "Current write speed: 6x" (And maybe faster?)
That doesn't bode well for those discs then. I thought the speed of a disc was encoded on it to stop software from burning too fast unless you explicitly enable an overspeed feature :/

[Ghitulescu]

Just burned a couple of my new PiData (Ritek) 4X discs and suddenly realised Toast said "Current write speed: 6x" (And maybe faster?)
That doesn't bode well for those discs then. I thought the speed of a disc was encoded on it to stop software from burning too fast unless you explicitly enable an overspeed feature :/

Not exactly. The value indicated by the disc's manufacturer is the MAX SPEED possible with this disc if one needs to be within the required specs. How much technicality and how much marketing is hidden there I can't say.

Beasides, who's gonna buy a 12x recorder if no 12x discs are sold? :D

[hello_hello]

No, I said something different. The quality, to be compared, must be referenced. Each burner has a different, optimised strategy for each MID (at least one hopes it's like that). If ones buys a Ferrari over his old Dodge, it's not an improvement of the Dodge. If one buys Make 4 over Make 3 of a Dodge, and its quality surpasses the older one, this is an improvement.

What an odd analogy. Of course a Ferrari isn't an improved dodge, but it's still better than a dodge.
If a disc manufacturer was using "dodge" dye on their discs, but later switch to using "Ferrari" dye on the same discs, how have the discs not improved?

[hello_hello]

Just burned a couple of my new PiData (Ritek) 4X discs and suddenly realised Toast said "Current write speed: 6x" (And maybe faster?)
That doesn't bode well for those discs then. I thought the speed of a disc was encoded on it to stop software from burning too fast unless you explicitly enable an overspeed feature :/

The way I understand it, supported speeds are a function of the drive's firmware as well as the speed of the media. Nero InfoTool reports the supported speeds for a disc, and I'm pretty sure it's based on the drive's firmware. For instance I have a few different DVD burners and a Bluray burner. I can stick a 16x Verbatim disc (DVD) in each drive and the maximum speed reported by Nero InfoTool can be either 16x, 18x or 20x, depending on the drive. I can insert different brands of 16x media and get different maximum speeds. Something like this:
http://www.dslreports.com/r0/download/1298378~d2fe82f4a823a36dd7f27c4ee70ea886/dvds.png
If the burner is willing to burn the disc above it's rated speed, it should be a reasonable indication the drive's firmware is capable of decent quality at an increased speed and possibly an indication the discs are of a decent quality. I say that because a given drive will be more likely to burn good quality media at higher than it's rated speed than it will cheap media.
If you're worried about it, you should be able to set the burn speed to the disc's rated speed manually.

If the firmware doesn't support a particular disc, then I think the drive should stick to the maximum rated speed. For instance the Bluray discs I use are rated at 4x but when I run Nero InfoTool it says it's unable to determine the supported speeds... I assume because the drive's firmware doesn't specifically support those discs. The burner starts off at 1x and happily ramps up to 4x by the end of the burn though.


Beasides, who's gonna buy a 12x recorder if no 12x discs are sold?

All the people who buy 22x DVD burners??

[Cloudane]

Thanks for the info on the speeds.

I'll leave the two I did at the faster speed, burn the rest at 4X for safety, and see which ones still work in 6 months :)

[hello_hello]

Cloudane,
What's the MID of the discs you're using? The only 4x Ritek media on my burner's support list are RITEK_BR2 and RITEK_BO1. The latter are LtoH discs. According to the support list my Pioneer BDR-206 should be able to burn the former at 10x and the latter at 4x, so if your discs are RITEK_BR2, then 6x probably isn't too over the top, speed-wise.
After researching my drive I guess my assumption a drive would limit the speed of unsupported media to the media's rated speed was wrong. Seems the drive probably just uses it's own maximum speed when burning unsupported media.

Seems I was also a little incorrect about my Bluray discs. I think they're rated at 6x (don't have a spindle with a label still intact to check) but according to this list they are:
Disc Manufacturer ID & Media Type ID Licensee List (http://www.blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/discmanuid-licenseelist.php)
CMC Magnetics Corporation, CMCMAG, BA5, 1-6X

So then I did some research on my drive (Pioneer BDR-206) and downloaded the media support PDF. If I'm reading it correctly when media is not supported by the drive it limits the speed to 4x but the CMCMAG media is on the list and seems to be supported at a burn speed of 12x.
After reading that, and as I'm using an older version of Nero, I thought I'd give ImgBurn a spin. When it comes to DVD media ImgBurn and Nero seem to agree on the maximum supported speed, but it appears ImgBurn is aware my drive can burn this 6x media at up to 12x whereas Nero is not. Why, I don't know.

Unfortunately I don't have any more blank discs to use to test burn speeds, but I'll be buying some in the near future. At least thanks to this thread I may have discovered the error of my ways, although it's kind of disappointing to realize I probably could have been burning these discs at 12x using ImgBurn rather than at 4x using Nero.

[DVDean]

The quality of Ritek 4x BR2 is on the low side to begin with. The 6x Ritek BR3 are slightly better, but best not burned above 4x. A friend burning some of the Ridata branded 4x BD-R's just a couple days ago wound up with error levels that make it unlikely those discs will remain readable for long. Ritek quality has not been improving.

OK folks. Here's the deal with high speed burning. The high speeds that are allowed by burner firmwares exist for the sake of professional users in duplication towers who need the faster production ability and are spending the extra money for high quality duplication grade media to enable usable high speed burns. They are generally not concerned with longevity, simply getting a usable disc in the shortest time possible. Just because your burner is willing to burn a particular disc MID at 12x or 24x does not mean it is capable of doing so with all grades of that disc.

Error rates on burns generally climb rapidly with burn speed. A little less so with high quality media, drastically so with consumer level media. If you wish to get as much longevity as possible from your media, as well as increase your odds of avoiding coasters, do not burn it above rated speed. If you have high confidence in the quality of your media, you may get decent results and longevity burning one or two speeds above the rated speed. If you are not familiar with the quality of your media or feel it may not be the best, one or two speeds below rated is often the best choice.

[hello_hello]

Error rates on burns generally climb rapidly with burn speed. A little less so with high quality media, drastically so with consumer level media. If you wish to get as much longevity as possible from your media, as well as increase your odds of avoiding coasters, do not burn it above rated speed. If you have high confidence in the quality of your media, you may get decent results and longevity burning one or two speeds above the rated speed. If you are not familiar with the quality of your media or feel it may not be the best, one or two speeds below rated is often the best choice.

Are you able to supply burn quality tests to support your speed claims?
I can't say I've ever tested a Bluray disc but I regularly test DVDs and I'm of the opinion burn quality at various speeds is very dependent on the drive/disc combination. A generalization that error rates climb rapidly with (over)speed doesn't seem to hold up.
I'm also skeptical burning at higher than rated speed is enabled specifically for professional duplication because burning speeds aren't exactly something manufacturers are scared to market to consumers, and they're certainly a factor when choosing a burner for a home PC.

There's also the fact burners don't burn at the same speed throughout the whole disc. It's quite possible a burner burning at 6x may only burn a small portion of the disc faster than it would at 4x, and it's also possible one burner burning at 4x times may ramp up to that speed earlier in the burn than a different burner burning at 6x, and would therefore be burning earlier portions of the disc faster. Ever noticed (when burning DVDs at least) how sometimes one burner at 16x may only be marginally faster at filling a disc than another burner at 12x?

Your friend who ended up with lots of errors when burning at 6x.... how much of the disc was actually burned at a faster speed than it would have been had he stuck with 4x? And did the error rate increase over the whole disc, or just towards the end where the speed increased beyond 4x?

I'm even willing to believe error rates can change according to how often the drive is used. ie whether the dust inside the drive has had a chance to build up if it doesn't get used a lot. I've had some marathon burning sessions in the past where after a while I seem to produce consistently higher quality burns for no apparent reason. I even wonder how much ambient temperature might play a part in burn quality.

[Ghitulescu]

Are you able to supply burn quality tests to support your speed claims?

You are the only one here who is of the opinion that increasing burning speed does not cause increasing errors.

And it is also interesting to see that you ask for evidence instead of providing yourself some. The burden of proof lies usually with the one going against the mainstream.

[DVDean]

Are you able to supply burn quality tests to support your speed claims?

Personally? Thousands. Plextor scans. BenQ scans. Lite-on scans. FACTORY SCANS. I would point you to club.MYCE for thousands more.

The fact that error rates continue to rise beyond a certain speed with any media is simple physics. As burn speed increases and laser pulses get faster, motor speed control becomes more critical, vibration induces miswrites, disc tilt pushes tilt compensation to it's limits, etc., etc.

I am intimately aquainted with CAV, P-CAV, CLV, Z-CLV. These have nothing to do with the fact that write errors are more likely at higher than rated speed.

You need to understand something. Your consumer drive is not as accurate as the testing equipment used at the factory level. A 4x, 8x, 16x rated media is required to provide a burn that meets industry book spec at that speed tested by highly accurate systems. Media manufacturers provide prime samples of their media to meet this certification. All too often much of what comes from their factory will not meet that standard. Entirely too few manufacturers continue to hold that level of quality after initial certification.
On the other hand, if they had a disc formulation that could burn to spec at 18x, 20x, 24x, they would be shouting it from the rooftops and selling 20x dvd's like hotcakes. Have you noticed that isn't happening?

Only the highest quality media will be able to yield a burn that is within spec at above rated speed. Many spindles of media do require burning at lower than rated speed to come close to a book spec burn. Most people are not using the highest quality media. Most people who are using average quality media and following your advice will pop their overspeed burned disc in their drive a year from now and find it unreadable. Does that make you feel good about yourself?

My reference to Riteks was simply to try to help save people from coastering their BR2's in spite of your wrong guess that they might be good enough to overspeed. And the friend that is seeing poor quality with BR2 at rated speed is the moderator for an optical media forum. He actually does know what he's talking about. There's no mystery behind the short longevity of Riteks.

Anyone with some knowledge of optical media and burners knows better than to advise people to burn their media as fast as they can. It would be irresponsible. I've lost count of the times I've helped a forum member stop burning coasters by manually setting their burn speed lower and not letting their burning software choose a higher speed.

Your superstitions about changing error rates are cute :). I have a friend who swears he gets better burns when he's wearing his dark blue pinstriped shirt. Harmless fun, I suppose.

[Rich86]

Well, they surely knew it was bad at some point (probably when the phone started ringing off the hook in their technical support department and their email in-boxes filled up). I imagine folks like me cost them a bit of money also, as we insisted on replacement or refunds within their 1 year warranty period . . :-)
I will say, however, that Inland was very cooperative and responsive to the problem once I contacted them. I got the RMA # promptly, and received replacement product promptly after shipping them the defective media.

I had asked the person I was communicating with if he knew what brand model the new media was, and got the following response:

"Unfortunately I do not have that information available off hand.
These discs should work more like 98% of the time given the general manufacturing defect rate, but generally it will be a whole spindle that's defective not just 1 or 2 discs.
Hopefully this new manufacturer proves to be more reliable than the last one. Let me know how it goes."


Sounds pretty clear to me they knew they had a problem. The 25 disc spindle I had was purchased for $12 after a $15 rebate from Inland . . so . . maybe at some point someone knew they were dumping marginal goods into the market. They would not be the first - and won't be the last.

The replacement media they sent me has an internal code of "PHILIP-R04-000". The spindle has a made in China sticker on the bottom. I think someone commented that Philips media was actually manufactured by CMC in Taiwan. I'm glad to not see an "OTC" code anywhere!

Update:
I just burned the 1st disc out of the spindle of Philip-R04-000 replacement media from Inland. It burned fine @ 4x and seems to read/play just fine.

[diogen]

The fact that error rates continue to rise beyond a certain speed with any media is simple physics.Very much so. But what is that "certain speed"?

The first CD burners ($3,000 apiece, IIRC) couldn't do anything better than 1x.
Today burning CDs at less than 24x I'm not sure is possible. At least without hacking the burner.
Hence, that "certain speed" is a moving target.

On the other hand, there were tests showing that going above 52x speed lifts the odds of disk destruction to 50/50...

For the record: I haven't done much CD/DVD burning over the last few years, use hard drive based storage instead.

Diogen.

[Ghitulescu]

Today burning CDs at less than 24x I'm not sure is possible. At least without hacking the burner.

I think it's 8x or 10x for most burners. The only new CD-burners that allowed 4x or (god forbid :)) 1x was the Yamaha CRW-F1 (44x) and the Plextor Premium (54x). NEW is a relative term, but in this context it refers to the last generations of pure CD-burners.

The latest generations of DVD-burners did not allow anything below 4x if not 6x, even with 1x, 2x or 4x rated media.

Writable media should never be burned above their rated speed. Even their rated speed is sometimes nothing than gambling, especially with budget manufacturers or distributors, as they tend to give some fantasy values (marketing).

[Rich86]

I think it's 8x or 10x for most burners. The only new CD-burners that allowed 4x or (god forbid :)) 1x was the Yamaha CRW-F1 (44x) and the Plextor Premium (54x). NEW is a relative term, but in this context it refers to the last generations of pure CD-burners.

The latest generations of DVD-burners did not allow anything below 4x if not 6x, even with 1x, 2x or 4x rated media.

Writable media should never be burned above their rated speed. Even their rated speed is sometimes nothing than gambling, especially with budget manufacturers or distributors, as they tend to give some fantasy values (marketing).

My philosophy has always been to select a burn speed in the middle of the burners capabilities and rated media (ex. 48x speed cd-r media in a 52x burner gets 24x, 16x DVD media generally gets 8X). This approach has served me well, so far (although I find with some BD-R media, my drive seems to insist on using 4x burn speed with 4x media - but it works ok).

[DVDean]

Update:
I just burned the 1st disc out of the spindle of Philip-R04-000 replacement media from Inland. It burned fine @ 4x and seems to read/play just fine.Glad to hear it.

From my experience, your burn speed recipe is a very good way to end up with usable/durable discs.

Very much so. But what is that "certain speed"?

With media quality varying as much as it does from some manufacturers, that is a moving target :) .
One of the best reasons to advise conservative burn speeds to allow for the occasional sub-par batch of media.

[diogen]

In January this year, while cleaning one of the shelves, I found a black zipped sleeve with half a dozen burned CDs.
Those were at least 15 years old since they had Netscape Web Server (and related) software burned on it, multiple copies.
I don't recall when and how I burned it, but the media was not really top of the line, more like no-name with one white (writable!) side.

I put it into my optical CD/DVD/HD-DVD/BD drive (LG) and had absolutely no problems reading the content...

Admittedly, this evidence is nothing but anecdotal.
But I think there is more than just burning speed responsible for the longevity of burned media.
Leave a CD with the data side facing direct sunlight, and you might not be able to read it by the end of the day.

Regardless of burning speed...

Diogen.

[F3L0N]

Hey all, I browsed through this thread briefly, so sorry if this has been covered... But I was wondering if anyone has a suggestion for BD-25 media to use with a PS3 Slim? just upgraded to a BD burner and was hoping for a recommendation of something that works well. Thanks for the help!

[Ch3vr0n]

There's only 1 brand i use for all my different types of blanks, that's verbatim. Playback pretty much guaranteed on any device

[hello_hello]

Well I'm late coming back to this thread, but I hadn't realized there were further replies, and upon reading them was astounded (well I wasn't really surprised at all) to discover how selective the memory can be when it's convenient.

You are the only one here who is of the opinion that increasing burning speed does not cause increasing errors.

And it is also interesting to see that you ask for evidence instead of providing yourself some. The burden of proof lies usually with the one going against the mainstream.

One of the many times I've posted quality test results.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1535400#post1535400

And of course I never said increasing burning speed can't increase errors, I said it's dependent on the media and the drive's burning strategy etc. Chances are there's a particular speed at which a particular drive is going to burn best using a particular media, and I'd be willing to bet more often than not, it's not going to be the drive's slowest speed.
I've stated several times in other threads I have a couple of old Pioneer burners which seem to do best at 12x using 16x Verbatim media so that's the speed I use.


Only the highest quality media will be able to yield a burn that is within spec at above rated speed. Many spindles of media do require burning at lower than rated speed to come close to a book spec burn. Most people are not using the highest quality media. Most people who are using average quality media and following your advice will pop their overspeed burned disc in their drive a year from now and find it unreadable. Does that make you feel good about yourself?

I wasn't arguing that's not the case. I simply stated that I don't think you can offer a generalization that higher speed = more errors as you originally did. I've used cheap media in the past where no doubt the best quality was obtained by slowing down the burn, however maybe some manufacturers are more responsible than others. I just looked at the media support list for the latest Pioneer DVD burner (24x) and currently there's only 2 brands of media it'll burn at 24x, 3 brands at 22x, 12 brands a 20x, 24 brands at 18x and 26 brands of disc at 16x.
So you can't just stick in any old disc and burn at more than 18x, and your speed argument doesn't take the drive's burn strategy into account. There's a very strong likelihood a given burner will burn 90% of the disc at the same speed regardless of whether you burn at 16x, 20x or 24x.... it might only be the last few percent of the disc which ever achieves the maximum speed, and chances are much of that speed is more marketing than it is a reduction in burning time.

I've got one burner here which (if memory serves me correctly), when it's set to burn at 12x, ramps up to that speed much faster than another drive set to burn at 16x. For a good portion of the disc it's burning faster at 12x than the second burner at 16x, so a burn using the second drive isn't all that much faster in total burning time.
Drives don't burn the disc at the same speed from start to finish, yet "slower is better" generalizations often seem to be made under the assumption they do.

My reference to Riteks was simply to try to help save people from coastering their BR2's in spite of your wrong guess that they might be good enough to overspeed. And the friend that is seeing poor quality with BR2 at rated speed is the moderator for an optical media forum. He actually does know what he's talking about. There's no mystery behind the short longevity of Riteks.

I never made any reference to Ritek, so saying I wrongly guessed they're good enough to overspeed is simply putting words in my mouth, and of course if the quality is poor at rated speed it's not likely to improve at faster speeds, but there's nothing to say it'll decrease either. If a particular burner isn't doing well with a particular media at it's rated speed, you don't need to be an moderator of an optical forum to know it simply isn't very good at burning to those discs. As I've said, it depends as much on the burner being used as it does the disc.

Anyone with some knowledge of optical media and burners knows better than to advise people to burn their media as fast as they can. It would be irresponsible.

Well I guess it's just as well that's not what I said, isn't it?

Very much so. But what is that "certain speed"?
The first CD burners ($3,000 apiece, IIRC) couldn't do anything better than 1x.
Today burning CDs at less than 24x I'm not sure is possible. At least without hacking the burner.
Hence, that "certain speed" is a moving target.

Thank you. My point exactly.