madVR Options Explained

[huhn]

it is doing the chroma scaling wrong and moving the chroma by half a subpixel to the right.

just use EVR CP in this case.

[aufkrawall]

Now that you say it, it indeed looks shifted and can look stupid with black lines. :(

[Asmodian]

It definitely dithers to display shadows, like a plasma, you can see it quite easily.

Banding was a huge problem when setting it up but the banding does not mean it is not dithering, only that it is bad at it.

I don't think what I was seeing was actually dithering to display shadows. :o

It looks like it is probably just very uneven brightness between pixels when at low brightness.
flat 5% gray (http://www.mediafire.com/file/88o4ac80fqfx4yn/20170831_232555.jpg)

However, I still don't think the banding is due to a lack of dithering. I think it is due to a much worse problem with this OLED TV not having a smooth response, e.g. there are visible steps between some 10 bit values but not between others or when zoomed in all the way on a luminance graph it would look like a slanted stair step (>90° "stairs"). Also it is not uniform spatially, on a solid 5% gray screen there are some obvious lines, squares, etc.

Sorry, not madVR related. :o

[huhn]

the sony, Phillips and the panasonic OLED have no real problem with banding so the issue comes down to low bit deep processing with dithering or high bit deep processing with out dithering.

don't forget an OLED needs heavy processing because it is WRGB.

[Asmodian]

Yes, I am simply not sure it is a problem with dithering (or lack thereof), it may be simply bad processing. My expectation is that it would be better if the banding was only because it didn't dither. The visible banding is not evenly spaced in a gradient, it might have obvious banding at only a few transitions, which are randomly spaced and might involve more than one 10-bit value. The number and placement of the bands does change when changing settings like contrast or black level.

I think each pixel/panel probably responds a little differently and needs to be tuned to the right gamma curve and this tuning isn't complete enough, maybe they only do it at 100%, 70% and 40% and assume the panel is smooth between them when it isn't. You can see it when measuring the gamma curve in very finely spaced steps, slight under/overshoots as you move up the curve (~1.2 dE2000 at most but still visible when looking at what should be a smooth gradient). If 73% is undershooting luminance by 1dE and 77% is overshooting by 1dE you get visible banding even if 75% is nearly perfect. This seems to be worse with some colors too, an orange gradient's bands are more obvious but seem to have the same cause.

I remember reading about the process of evening out pixel variations in the processing/display controller, LG was proud they had figured it out and it had a specific term which I cannot remember. :o

[XMonarchY]

What is Compatibility in Display Mode Optimization section? My TV works even with very low compatibility rating after optimization. Does low compatibility mean worse image quality?

Also you stated that custom modes prevent 10bit depth unless 10-12bit is already enabled in NVidia CP, but doesn't madVR use some additional colors when 10bit is selected in madVR's Configurator?

[nevcairiel]

Low compatibility means it may not work with many displays.

[Asmodian]

Also you stated that custom modes prevent 10bit depth unless 10-12bit is already enabled in NVidia CP, but doesn't madVR use some additional colors when 10bit is selected in madVR's Configurator?

I am not sure what you are asking. 10-bit does allow madVR to send additional colors to the GPU but if the GPU is in an 8-bit mode the GPU drivers will convert madVR's 10-bit output. This is lower quality than simply having madVR output 8-bit in the first place.

Also these additional colors are inside the gamut, 100% RGB is the same color in 8 or 10-bit, 10-bit simply allows finer steps inside the same color gamut.

[XMonarchY]

I am not sure what you are asking. 10-bit does allow madVR to send additional colors to the GPU but if the GPU is in an 8-bit mode the GPU drivers will convert madVR's 10-bit output. This is lower quality than simply having madVR output 8-bit in the first place.

Also these additional colors are inside the gamut, 100% RGB is the same color in 8 or 10-bit, 10-bit simply allows finer steps inside the same color gamut.

What is likely to provide better image quality on my LCD TV:
A.
- Display set to 12bit (10bit functionality) in NVidia CP
- Default/Non-Custom Display mode is used
- madVR is set to 10bit

OR

B.
- Display set to 12bit (10bit functionality) in NVidia CP
- Custom Display mode is used
- madVR is set to 10bit

?

But I guess in the end it doesn't matter that much since madVR ED is really good.

[Asmodian]

It is hard to know without knowing which TV you are using. In your two tests all you are changing is whether or not you are using a custom display mode. B is better in this case.

The important point is what the TV does with 10-bit input. If it does internal processing at <10-bit sending 10-bit from madVR is usually worse, if your display does not handle 10-bit input well it might be better to have madVR dither to 8-bit because it is so much better at dithering. This is also an issue if your GPU is sending 8-bit to your display while madVR is sending 10-bit to the GPU, the GPU has to do the final dithering to 8-bit and the GPU isn't as good at it so it would be better to send it 8-bit. So make sure everything is really using 10-bit properly before setting it anywhere.

Edit: I use these gradients to test with, does madVR 10-bit with dithering look better than without? If not I would set madVR to 8-bit. Never use madVR with the dithering off, except when testing. :)
gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1 24fps.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/file/4dia3lixs0n9xyo/gradient-perceptual-colored-v2.1_24fps.mkv)
gradient-perceptual-v2.1 24fps.mkv (http://www.mediafire.com/file/z1f4ahg3784lfwz/gradient-perceptual-v2.1_24fps.mkv)

[dvd1]

activate doubling / quadrupling... good for 576 to 1080p?
how and where to activate or deactivate them in madVR?

[Asmodian]

Yes, I like doubling for 576 to 1080p.

To activate doubling simply pick a doubling algorithm. These include super-xbr, NGU, and NNEDI3.

The options you quoted allow you to adjust what scaling factors a doubling algorithm will activate for, if the scaling factor is below that ratio madVR will use the option selected in "if any (more) scaling needs to be done:".

Let madVR decide uses 1.2x for the ratio so by default doubling will activate for 576 to 1080p.

[dvd1]

https://s26.postimg.org/n38rq7qkp/egrhtrynyjmjh.png (https://postimages.org/)

all right?

[dvd1]

https://s26.postimg.org/x1ybqfpe1/111111.png (https://postimg.org/image/sg27i33ut/)
excuse me, explain me well the values in the red paintings
are too high. how should they be?
thank you so much

[huhn]

they are fine.

[dvd1]

sorry, I want to understand why they are good?

[Asmodian]

all right?

Yes, that is good. That is also the same as “let madVR decide”.


excuse me, explain me well the values in the red paintings
are too high. how should they be?
thank you so much

Your rendering times look good, no issues at all. A few dropped frames are normal during playback start and/or seeking. The reason it looks good is because 27.52 < 40.00. :)

[dvd1]

https://s26.postimg.org/6bt0bhq2x/Immagine33333333.png (https://postimg.org/image/478naeog5/)
maximum luminance algorithms
with rendering to the limit, but little pictures of how to make a more sharp image and lower the render
grace thousand to all, but in particular to Asmodian

[dvd1]

nobody knows how to help me?

[pirlouy]

Nobody. GL !

[dvd1]

why activating and deactivating upscaling refinement options change scaler algorithms?

[huhn]

because DXVA deinterlancing is well using DXVA so DXVA scaling is used to in this case.
DXVA processing is pretty much a lost case on nvidia anyway.

[dvd1]

https://s25.postimg.org/gd9lwj9vz/Isdacvfvccwdfw.png (https://postimg.org/image/ctno6q763/)


it is not DXVA

[dvd1]

https://s25.postimg.org/w2kqwtrcf/Immagine23345666.png (https://postimg.org/image/t8hljdp63/)

[Asmodian]

Sorry, I was in the process of switching continents again. :p

If you refine after every 2x the aspect ratio should be correct for the refinement so madVR scales to the correct aspect ratio after doubling instead of after quadrupling.


maximum luminance algorithms
with rendering to the limit, but little pictures of how to make a more sharp image and lower the render

To lower the rendering time I suggest you set "activate doubling / quadrupling..." to 4.0x for quadrupling. Quadrupling and then downscaling does little good and takes a lot of power.

Sharper: I suggest LumaSharpen or AdaptiveSharpen for lower quality sources. I like crispen edges and enhance detail sometimes too, but only with high quality sources. In general I use as few methods and at as low strengths as possible, none by default, I set them up specifically for a source if I think it is too soft. I almost never use "refine the image after every ~2x upscaling step."

Add grain is good for low detail sources. Sharpen edges is good for Anime.

All in my experiance, that page is a matter of taste for every source. :)

[huhn]

https://s25.postimg.org/gd9lwj9vz/Isdacvfvccwdfw.png


it is not DXVA

well i was reading deinterlancing.

[dvd1]

@Asmodian

do i have 576 to 1080p of low quality as imadVR imposed for an image with as much detail as possible?
chroma upscaling
image dowscaling
image upscaling
upscaling refiremnt

rendering


thank you so much

[Asmodian]

Yes, I think you have picked good settings.

Upscaling refinement:
I would never use those settings but if you like how it looks it is good. Enhance detail sharpens artifacts in low quality sources too much for me, especially every 2x and strength 3! That is too strong and too much even for high quality sources.

[dvd1]

Yes, I think you have picked good settings.

Upscaling refinement:
I would never use those settings but if you like how it looks it is good. Enhance detail sharpens artifacts in low quality sources too much for me, especially every 2x and strength 3! That is too strong and too much even for high quality sources.
can you set the settings to me?
chroma upscaling ?
image dowscaling ?
image upscaling ?
upscaling refiremnt ?

rendering ?

[Asmodian]

No, sorry. It may be the language barrier but I have told you all those already.

Use my settings.bin (http://www.mediafire.com/file/2c118c36s25w554/settings.bin) if you want to use my recommendations. Turn down NGU quality if you have to and switch to ordered dithering.

[70MM]

I wanted to see your settings but settings.bin doesnt work for me, is there something wrong?

[Asmodian]

Did you reset to defaults before copying it into madVR's directory?

[dvd1]

for low quality source in upscaling refinement
is that okay?

https://s1.postimg.org/3jgjuqu6bz/Catturaasdffgf.png (https://postimages.org/)

[huhn]

if you like it yes.

[Asmodian]

Those are reasonable settings for lower quality content, I might use something like that.

But really, as huhn said, if you like how it looks it is correct. I change what I use for all sorts of reasons and there are always sources or even displays that look better with weird options.

Trust your eyes, especially true with that page.

[dvd1]

I just like that, only rendering is 38ms, is not it high?
how can I lower it without having negative reflections on the obtained images?

[Asmodian]

As I said:

To lower the rendering time I suggest you set "activate doubling / quadrupling..." to 4.0x for quadrupling.

[nussman]

i.e. set NGU chroma doubling to medium and test if you see any differences.
This whole madVR thing will not work for you if you keep on asking without testing yourself.

[dvd1]

As I said:
how should i do it?

[Asmodian]

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/asmodian3/quadrupling%204.0x_zpsfivf9o9t.png

[nsnhd]

I'm playing around with NGU options and see that there are NGU Soft/Standards/Sharp, each of them comes with qualities Low/Medium/High/Very High.
So, I wonder what exactly the differences applied for them, eg. between NGU Sharp/Low and NGU Standard/High ? I know experiments count but would like to know the differences but haven't found explanations.

[Asmodian]

The technical differences in the quality levels are known only to madshi but they are probably something like number of neurons used, a pure speed v.s. quality trade-off. The quality levels don't really change the sharpness, they change the precision of the predictions.

The differences between Soft, Standard, Sharp, and AA are differences in the algorithms themselves, for example Sharp is very sharp at all quality levels and AA is softer and anti-aliases well at all quality levels. Normal and Soft are simply less sharp versions of the Sharp algorithm while AA behaves slightly differently. AA does not have a direct quadrupling mode and shifts the image very slightly up and to the left. Performance is similar between them all, with the exception that direct quadrupling is faster than doubling twice.

[nsnhd]

The technical differences in the quality levels are known only to madshi but they are probably something like number of neurons used, a pure speed v.s. quality trade-off. The quality levels don't really change the sharpness, they change the precision of the predictions.

The differences between Soft, Standard, Sharp, and AA are differences in the algorithms themselves, for example Sharp is very sharp at all quality levels and AA is softer and anti-aliases well at all quality levels. Normal and Soft are simply less sharp versions of the Sharp algorithm while AA behaves slightly differently. AA does not have a direct quadrupling mode and shifts the image very slightly up and to the left. Performance is similar between them all, with the exception that direct quadrupling is faster than doubling twice.

Thanks, so to make it simple if sharp image is my taste, I'll ignore others and just use NGU Sharp with highest possible quality level that my GPU can deal with ?

[Asmodian]

Exactly, simply pick an algorithm you like and then tune quality to account for GPU or different resolutions.

[dRumMzZ]

Hello everyone,
I hope this is the most appropriate thread for my problem, if it isn't please direct me to the right place.
I'm trying to use madVR in order to play a Blu-Ray movie with the "top-and-bottom" option (I was following this tutorial (https://www.tchapin.com/how-to-watch-3d-blu-ray-movies-on-the-htc-vive-or-oculus-rift-without-having-to-re-encode-the-movie/)). I've tried using different versions and settings but nothing changes, it always plays as if madVR's settings are taking no effect.

I am using a laptop and I noticed that in my monitor's device info, the 3d formats is set to none (https://i.imgur.com/4j0pUZQ.png). Is it supposed to be like that?
Also, is the tutorial missing something or am I just not doing something right?

Thank you :)

[huhn]

the totorial is for VR headset so are you using a VR headset?
madVr needs 3D BDs as a source to convert them to any other 3D format.
your end device needs to support 3D to get well 3D.

Now, go to the “External Filters” section and click the “Add Filter” button. You will want to add five filters. Make sure that each one’s priority level is set to “Prefer”, so they over-ride the default internal filters:
1. LAV Audio Decoder
2. LAV Splitter
3. LAV Splitter Source
4. LAV Video Decoder
5. madVR
Under the “general settings” section, I also tweaked a couple of things. In particular, I enabled windowed overlay, as well as the checkbox for using Direct3D 11 for presentation.
meanwhile on the internet...

[dRumMzZ]

the totorial is for VR headset so are you using a VR headset?
madVr needs 3D BDs as a source to convert them to any other 3D format.
your end device needs to support 3D to get well 3D.

Yes, a rift.
Sorry if this is too stupid but, what do you mean by "support 3D", though? Is that what the "3D formats" option means?
Do I need a 3D-capable monitor? If so, doesn't that defeat the purpose of the tutorial? Also, the monitor identified in the tutorial does not seem to be capable of it, hence my confusion (regarding the "3d formats" option).

Under the “general settings” section, I also tweaked a couple of things. In particular, I enabled windowed overlay, as well as the checkbox for using Direct3D 11 for presentation.

I have also tried using these settings on and off, I can provide a screenshot later if you need.

[huhn]

Yes, a rift.
Sorry if this is too stupid but, what do you mean by "support 3D", though? Is that what the "3D formats" option means?
Do I need a 3D-capable monitor? If so, doesn't that defeat the purpose of the tutorial? Also, the monitor identified in the tutorial does not seem to be capable of it, hence my confusion (regarding the "3d formats" option).
ok doesn't look complicated at all. a lot of the setting he is setting up make absolutely no sense... just saying.
your rift support Top bottom 3D and some other formats the 3D support is given kind of at least.
the firs thing you need to do is getting top bottom on the display ignore the rift for now.

deinstall these freaking codec packs and every else related to directshow.
install MPC-hc.
install madVR.
option -> output -> set madVR as the video renderer
go to internal filter now and disable all (right clock disable all filter)
install lavfilter
when you install lavfilter you need to install the software intel 3D decoder. by default this is not done. unlike the tutorial DXVA should not work or well it is simply not used. use the default lavfilter settings and you should be fine.
now you have to play a frame packed 3D file or with other words a BD remux/decrypted disc you can find a sample here: http://kodi.wiki/view/Samples .
SBS encodes will not work.
for the madVR settings try the defaults with top bottom 3D and enable 3D playback.
if you play a 3D file and make me a screen with the madVR OSD (control+j) i can see what is wrong.

after this works you have to get this somehow some way into the rift with an virtual desktop or what ever and what else you find in that guide.
I have also tried using these settings on and off, I can provide a screenshot later if you need.
it's not important it just why...

and think about a new thread in software players.
not sure if a user with a rift and madVR knowledge will look into the madVR option explained thread.

[dRumMzZ]

deinstall these freaking codec packs and every else related to directshow.
install MPC-hc.
install madVR.
option -> output -> set madVR as the video renderer
go to internal filter now and disable all (right clock disable all filter)
install lavfilter
when you install lavfilter you need to install the software intel 3D decoder. by default this is not done. unlike the tutorial DXVA should not work or well it is simply not used. use the default lavfilter settings and you should be fine.

Tried following this but I was a bit lost on the Intel decoder part. What is it exactly? I see an "IntelQuickSyncDecoder.dll" inside my "MPC-HC/LAVFilters64" folder.
Now I'm getting "cannot render file", probably messed up somewhere.
Also, I noticed on the madVR's thread people complaining about Nvidia drivers messing up their setups. Could that be my main problem?

[huhn]

is about HDR.

this decoder is needed: https://abload.de/img/mvcdecodermdahd.png