MeGUI - x264/XviD/lavc/Snow encoder with MP4/MKV/AVI output & audio

[LigH]

Please expect to need at least twice the amount of desired video + audio size, because multiplexing requires that the data is duplicated once; no application is able to insert data into the same file it is reading from, it would destroy the file trying that, by overwriting data which would have been read later.

[Malkacoglu]

Hi everybody!

This is my first post and excuse my english.

First of all I want to say MeGUI is very perfect tool for x264 AVC encoding. I like it very much.

I found a bug in program.

Bug: if you setup default x264 encoder to mencoder, subq setting working wrong. When you select 6. RDO option in command line, its show subq=5. So I manualy enter this optin in custom command line en it works right.

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/6403/mencoderbug8cj.jpg


And I want to ask some questions about some megui options

why dont you make a select option for psnr? I use it in mencoder at command line but i cant use it when i encode with x264. because in command line you add a option --no-psnr. is there a problem in x264 psnr option?

can you support mono mp3 format? for example I encode a very old movie and its sound format is mono. So I want to encode it mono mp3. Bu in your mp3 options there is no mono option.

why dont you support external audio files? For example I encode sound before the encoding proses so I want to use this file. Bu megui is not support external files. Its support it in muxer menu but i want to use it in autoencode mode.

Thank you! :cool:

Edit: I 'm using latest version MeGUI 0.2.2.3a.

[Doom9]

When you select 6. RDO option in command line, its show subq=5.Correct, I did not paste enough from the x264.exe commandline.

why dont you make a select option for psnr?psnr is useless to me.


can you support mono mp3 format?I have my doubts that I'll do that.. I like to have features I consider useful and since I don't care about old movies... You can always load an externally encoded MP3 though (see next point)

why dont you support external audio files?it is supported. Just set up your video as usual, do not load audio, press auto-encode. Then in the windows that pops up, check Add Audio Stream. Then when you press Queue, the audio muxer window will come up and you can select your MP3 audio stream.

[Malkacoglu]

Hi,

Thank you for answer my question.

[Doom9]

@Malkacoglu: the bug you reported is fixed now.

[Richard Berg]

Trying MeGUI for the first time. Nice interface, good amount of options without overwhelming.

How do I get it to use the audio track from the source?

[berrinam]

If you are doing each step separately, simply don't set up audio to encode, and then choose the original in the muxing stage. If you are using AutoEncode, similarly, don't set up the audio encoding, and when you press AutoEncode, check 'Add additional content', and you can select your audio in the muxing window which pops up.

In OneClick mode, check 'Don't encode audio', which will use the original audio.

[Richard Berg]

Hmm, I can't figure it out. Input -> Audio Input only lets me choose AC3, MP3, or WAV. Muxer -> Audio Input only lets me choose AC3, MP3, or AAC. One Click only lets me choose VOB, MPG, or TS. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing: I do TV captures. My source is an AVI file (Huff/MJPEG + PCM) processed via Avisynth.

Since my Avisynth scripts are way slower than any encoder, an ideal front-end would also have an option to render out to a temp file whenever doing 2-pass. Should be fairly straightforward to automate Avs2Avi. Is the code available? I like C#.

Finally, a minor bug report: the command line shown in the AAC config dialog doesn't update when you choose different VBR presets.

[Doom9]

Is the code available? The first post of this thread is very enlightening ;) And I'm not using avs2avi.. there's no VfW here except for preview. And you need to extract your PCM.. there is no support for combined video/audio.. mencoder's audio capabilities stand no chance against BeSweet, never have and most likely never will.

[vidhead]

the mp4 video made with MeGUI - i used mplayer GUI - MPGUI to playback, its report shows 0 for bitrate - is this normal?

Playing J:\source\gw-3-04-e.mp4.
ISO: Unknown File Type Major Brand: avc1
Quicktime/MOV file format detected.
--------------
MOV track #0: 4310 chunks, 43100 samples
ID_VIDEO_ID=0
MOV: AVC decoder configuration record atom (43)!
MOV: Found unknown movie atom btrt (20)!
Image size: 512 x 384 (24 bpp)
Display size: 512 x 384
Fourcc: avc1 Codec: ''
--------------
MOV: longest streams: A: #-1 (0 samples) V: #0 (43100 samples)
VIDEO: [avc1] 512x384 24bpp 29.970 fps 0.0 kbps ( 0.0 kbyte/s)
ID_FILENAME=J:\source\gw-3-04-e.mp4
ID_DEMUXER=mov
ID_VIDEO_FORMAT=avc1
ID_VIDEO_BITRATE=0 <------?
ID_VIDEO_WIDTH=512
ID_VIDEO_HEIGHT=384
ID_VIDEO_FPS=29.970
ID_VIDEO_ASPECT=0.0000
ID_LENGTH=1438.10
==========================================================================
Opening video decoder: [ffmpeg] FFmpeg's libavcodec codec family
Selected video codec: [ffh264] vfm:ffmpeg (FFmpeg H.264)
==========================================================================
Audio: no sound
Starting playback...
VDec: vo config request - 512 x 384 (preferred csp: Planar YV12)
VDec: using Planar YV12 as output csp (no 0)
Movie-Aspect is undefined - no prescaling applied.
VO: [directx] 512x384 => 512x384 Planar YV12

mp4UI loads the mp4, show one video branch with Track 1 showing:
Type Video
Numberofsamples 43100
VideoType invalid <----?
Bitrate 0 <--- ?
duration 23:58.104 minutes
framerate 29.970fsp
width x height 0 x 0 <---?

if you try to export raw it throws
exception: MPEG-4 internal
reason: couldn'read sample 1

using MV2player the same mp4 shows:
resolution 512 x 384 < --looks correct
FPS = 0 <---?
Format = AVC1
Bitrate = 1154 kbps <--? if i remember correctly i fixed that at 700 or 800

the mp4 file size (without audio) 141696 kb - 2pass encode.

otherwise the mp4 plays without noticeable problem.

just curious.

[PatchWorKs]

Just a question: what about Theora ? and Dirac ?

[Doom9]

@vidhead: I wouldn't rely on MP4UI (created way before there was AVC).. but what mplayer reports could be atoms in the mp4 (somebody correct me if I'm wrong.. I never bothered learning all the details about the format).. and if an encoder / muxer doesn't write them, I guess 0 is the default.

@Just a question: what about Theora ? and Dirac ?: not available in mencoder so not really an option here. Perhaps one day in the future when they become more usable and deliver better quality and speed. In the case of Dirac, I don't even know of a tool that can take avs input and put the dirac stream into a container (plus then there's the thing about adding audio.. assuming AVI as container, any VfW based tool wouldn't work because there's no VfW Dirac codec....)

[haubrija]

Doom9,

Quick question. I saw that you were thinking about using encraw for xvid in MeGui. I'm getting ready to start my fall tv captures and was wondering if that's still your plan or if you're gonna still stick with mencoder. I really want to use custom quant matrix with windows and I think I remember you saying that with encraw we could use them. Thanks.

[Doom9]

encraw's commandline is still under heavy changes.. before it's reasonably settled I won't do anything that I have to redo two days after.

[babaz]

hi doom9
really longing for a version with "Nero-free" aac encoding (u know waht i mean, using latest besweet beta with dimzon plugins for FAAC)
would love it :D

[Doom9]

it'll happen.. it just takes time that I don't have right now.

[danpos]

Hi there! In order to sustain actualized myself in the present video editon scene, I did solve try MeGui out. The video used in present test is a piece of VOB (100 MB) chopped by kutterman.

For video encoding, I set x264.exe up through MeGui with following settings:

QPEL, CABAC, Loop -5, ChromaME, no B-Frames, 1 Reference Frames, P-Frames 8x8, Extra, other settings on default, ABR 1000 Kbits/s.

For audio encoding, I did choose AAC CBR 2.0 stereo 64 Kbits/s as output for each either AC3 5.1 tracks (english and portuguese audio tracks). Muxing is done by MP4 box CL app which is set up in GUI itself.

Follows down link for a resulting encoded clip:

MP4 AVC 1000 Kbps ABR - Two AAC 2.0 stereo 64 Kbps audio channels (http://uploadhut.com/view.php/325509.zip)
:o

Really is very impressive! :cool:

[neo_anderson]

hi,
i have 2 small questions, if want to set deblocking to -1 in megui that comes with x264 rev. 292, how to do that, should i set both alpha and beta deblocking options to -1? also, for dvd backups, which profile should be used, main or baseline or high? also, please tell me if there is any guide for using megui to do dvd backups using x264! i am little confused with 2-pass settings in megui!

[neo_anderson]

please someone help me with MeGUI Settings for dvd to x264 encoding!

[ipse]

First of all - thanks for good tool. MP4 absence is really boring in GK. :) But calculator and avs-editor in GK is much more smarter. I hope MeGUI will absorb best features from GK.

So, bugs and wishes on usability:

1. In MP4 muxer window in Video Input selection dialog I can't select nonexistent file. I want to add mux-job as final job after video and audio coding. But a have no video and audio files at this time.

2. Automaticaly set video output name in main window when opening avs-script. As it's in GK. E.g. simply changing <video>.avs to <video>.mp4 (or such other extension).
Addition: Hmm.. It's a good feature for muxing dialog too.

3. Put bitrate selection editbox in main window. This paramter changes on every new job. It is not comfortable to open codec settings window every time.

4. "Autostart job" checkbox in main window. I want to autostart only one job (usualy last) while I load chain of jobs. May be it would be better to add "Queue&Start" button near "Queue" button.


PS And do you think about centralized bugtraq? :)

[DarkNite]

@neo_anderson:

Main profile should be fine. High profile won't playback for everyone, at least not last time I checked. Nero may have updated sometime between the time I stopped paying attention to Recode\NVE\ShowTime and now.

[neo_anderson]

also, please tell me how to set deblocking to -1 in MeGUI , should alpha and beta deblocking both be set to -1?

[hellfred]

also, please tell me how to set deblocking to -1 in MeGUI , should alpha and beta deblocking both be set to -1?
I suggest you to have a look at DeathTheSheeps encoding guid :search: and mplayers manpage, there the x264encopts section. The parameters are not named exactly the same in mplayer/mencoder, x264 vfw interface and MeGUI (AFAIK) but you will get a good idea of what the different settings do.
Hellfred

[Doom9]

But calculator and avs-editor in GK is much more smarter.Please elaborate.

In MP4 muxer window in Video Input selection dialog I can't select nonexistent file. I want to add mux-job as final job after video and audio coding.Enter the awsome power of the auto-mode.. configure your video and audio, press the auto-encode button, select output and split size, check the checkbox to add streams, and you'll see a muxer window with everything needed pre-filled out, you can add your subtitle tracks and chapters.. so everything you can do with the muxer. There's no need to be able to select non-existent files (think about it logically for a sec.. it's not programmatically possible because a file open dialog needs existing files, and it doesn't make any sense because the automatization to mux after encoding is already here).

2. Automaticaly set video output name in main window when opening avs-script. Uh, I distinctively recall coding that... admittedly I had a few beers last night but my eyes do not deceive me, it's there. Not for the muxer though but I can put that onto the todo list.

3. Put bitrate selection editbox in main window. This paramter changes on every new job. It is not comfortable to open codec settings window every time.Let's see... I have a strong suspicion that you're unfamiliar with the auto mode, so that's feature 1 to make your suggestion superfluous. And there's option two: if you use the bitrate calculator, there's the apply button that applies the calculated bitrate to the currently selected codec.. and once again you don't need to configure the bitrate manually. With these two features, having a bitrate selector in the main window would be redundant, plus it breaks the separation between input/output and codec separation.

4. "Autostart job" checkbox in main window. I want to autostart only one job (usualy last) while I load chain of jobs. Uh, "load a chain of jobs"? How does that work? You probably meant to write something else as this makes no sense to me.

Let's see what happens if you add a job to the queue:
a) no job is currently being encoded
-> if autostart is enabled, the first job that will be added to the queue when you press the queue button will be encoded immediately.
-> if autostart is not enabled, the jobs will simply be added to the queue
b) a job is currently being encoded
-> regardless of the autostart, the job(s) is/are added to the queue. When the job that was being encoded when you pressed queue is done, there's another crossroads:
--> if you pressed the stop button in the queue tab, encoding will stop
--> if you didn't press stop, the next job in the queue will be encoded (taking into account job dependencies, chained jobs will be encoded after another regardless of their respective position in the queue).

There is no feature to encode "just this job" automatically and I don't see this as particularly useful. If you wish to get this, two clicks will take you there: 1) click on queue tab, 2)press the stop button. this will prevent any futher jobs from being encoded, but leaves the job that is currently being encoded to be encoded till the end.

When jobs error out, chained jobs are automatically skipped and the next non chained but queued job will be encoded (provided nobody pressed stop in the meantime).

Last but not least, pressing the stop button twice (it changes names from stop to start and reverse), will "re-start" the queue mode.. so if you decide at some point that you still want subsequent jobs to be encoded, just press that button again.

[bob0r]

Searched for "megui upsample"

I am not sure if this was already asked once, or in some to do list but:
Can MeGUI Upsample audio? like from 44KHz to 48KHz?
.... since Sony PSP only can play LC-AAC 48KHz, its quite wanted.


Also... what about winamp aac and aacplus encoding support?
Dimzon is going great with it, and the output is perfect, not those dirty nero files!

[Doom9]

audio wise I'm planning faac integration but nothing else at this point. The winamp encoders, as well as the reference encoder have one major drawback: they're CBR only. I'm waiting for a HA listening test to prove that those encoders beat faac despite CBR - perhaps that would change my mind.. but I have no plans in supporting 10 different AAC codecs.
And why would you need to upsample of digiTV and DVD uses 48KHz anyway?

[Sharktooth]

AAC+ v2 wont be bad though...

[bob0r]

..
And why would you need to upsample of digiTV and DVD uses 48KHz anyway?

Uhm, back in the day all movies were encoded 44KHz because some players could not handle 48KHz, including xbox in the beginning.

A lot of (old) divx/xvid movies can be converted to x264 for PSP with superb quality, but we MUST have 48KHz. Now i know encoding my own .aac with besweet and all with 48KHz is easy. BUTTTTTT since Megui is the best GUI i have seen in a long time, and i so love it, i would really love to see this, i would think, simple option.

---

As for the AACplus encoder, i agree about not supporting a lot of encoders, but FAAC for LC-AAC en winamp aacplus.dll for HE-AAC(AAC+SBR+PS) encoding would be perfect for now. CBR may not be what we want now, but until we can get any other, why not support it now.

(At least don't use nero for encoding AAC files, they are <insert nasty words here> !!

[Doom9]

A lot of (old) divx/xvid movies can be converted to x264 for PSP with superb quality, but we MUST have 48KHz.Cough cough, ayee matee (imagine me wearing an eye patch). If it's a legitimate backup, there should be a DVD to re-rip, shouldn't there?
why not support it now.Adding another audio encoder isn't such a small deal.. audio encoding related stuff is all over the place (well, not really, but there's plenty of instances that need to be changed now that I'm adding faac support, and one of the main reasons I never added Vorbis support is the additional complexity in adding yet another audio codec). I won't switch out the nero classes, conceptually it doesn't matter what the output is if the encoder is different.. just as there are two ASP codecs that are handled independently in the video area, there will now be two AAC codecs that will be handled differently.. and to make matters worse, I either have to mess with the dropdown in the main GUI or make an aac encoder selection in the settings.
PS is only useful for very low bitrates, which might be suited for mobile devices, but the PSP cannot handle HE, can it. For PC / Standalone playback, PS is really not needed as the bitrate simply is too low to give you a real movie feeling. Even I can hear bad audio at some point and I'm the exact opposite of an audiophile.

[bob0r]

Cough cough, ayee matee (imagine me wearing an eye patch). If it's a legitimate backup, there should be a DVD to re-rip, shouldn't there?
....

Uhm? Downloading in The Netherlands is still 100% legal.
Just sharing it is illegal, or when the contents itself is illegal (like kiddie porn, el-qaeda training video maybe... you get my point)

---

About the aac codec again, yes i agree, though psp will probably be "ready" in the future soon :)
You do whatever you want, its your party! ... you now know what the guests want though ;)

[Doom9]

well, I'm sorry, legal or not, I have always despised such format conversions and no tool of mine would ever support such a thing.. just like downsampling is out of the question for me. And obviously, somebody needs to share for you to be download ;) Those that downsample will need to come to my brainwashing seminar.. I'll teach them not to downsample.

[bob0r]

I will use -ssrc( --rate 48000 ) in besweet

bob0r slaps Doom9 with the :thanks: board

[Doom9]

a new release it out. there's your faac support...

[babaz]

a new release it out. there's your faac support...

for the holy ghost!
this is fantastic - have to try it immediately
:thanks:

[bob0r]

a new release it out. there's your faac support...

Great, now we can create complete PSP videos without extra tools.
Oh wait we can't, we can't upsample audio to 48000Khz :devil: :D

Next step replace NAAC with WAAC and we all happy! (N = Nero, W = Winamp) :scared: :goodpost:

(Nero = AACPLUS v1 (AAC+SBR))
(Winamp = AACPLUS v1/v2 (AAC+SBR+PS))
(Yes Nero can do ABR on AAC+SBR, but when the file size is so small and still sounds so well, who cares about ABR?)

:devil: :devil: mode: Support both Nero and Winamp, shall we start paypal for Doom9? The poor guy. :eek:

[max-holz]

Is it possible to have a guide that explain step by step how to encode using MeGUI and x264, also creation of AviSynth script and .avs files?
I have used the search function but I didn't find something suitable like the GordianKnot guide.

:thanks:

P.S

I'am a novice in this ground, I have always used tools like AutoGK or XMpeg doing my videos, is it a problem?

[Doom9]

@max-holz: tools - one click encoder and you don't really need a guide ;) you just need to create an audio and a video profile

[Doom9]

Oh wait we can't, we can't upsample audio to 48000KhzNot gonna happen. But you can always edit the job xml files and put whatever you like into the commandline and have it executed.. there just won't be any gui support for that.

Next step replace NAAC with WAAC and we all happy! (N = Nero, W = Winamp) Not gonna happen considering the lack of any non CBR mode. And PS is really pointless for DVD backups.

[max-holz]

@max-holz: tools - one click encoder and you don't really need a guide ;) you just need to create an audio and a video profile

I have tried with this script, MeGUI freeze and hang up:

LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\DGMPGDec\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\filters\autocrop.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\filters\RemoveGrainSSE3.dll")

movie = mpeg2source("C:\Scambio\Elaborazione Video\Hana\agk_tmp\Hana.d2v")
cropclip = autocrop(movie,mode=0,wmultof=4,hmultof=4,samples=8000,aspect=0,threshold=34,samplestartframe=1,leftadd=0,rightadd=0,topadd=0,bottomadd=0)
fixed_aspect = 1.42222222222222
c_width = width(cropclip)
c_height = round(height(cropclip) / fixed_aspect)
input_par = float(c_width)/float(c_height)
input_par = (input_par > 1.4) || (input_par < 1.25) ? input_par : (4.0/3.0)
out_width = 704
out_height = round(float(out_width) / input_par)
hmod = out_height - (floor(out_height / 16 ) * 16)
out_height = (hmod > 4) ? (out_height + (16 - hmod)) : (out_height - hmod)
new_aspect = (float(out_width) / float(out_height)) / fixed_aspect
autocrop(movie,mode=0,wmultof=4,hmultof=4,samples=8000,aspect=new_aspect,threshold=34,samplestartframe=1,leftadd=0,rightadd=0,topadd=0,bottomadd=0)
LanczosResize(out_width,out_height)
RemoveGrain(mode=2)
SelectRangeEvery(300,15)

[Doom9]

I swear one day we'll have a rule that if you claim a problem and don't provide reproduceability, you're going to get striked. It's not so much different from rule1..

[max-holz]

I swear one day we'll have a rule that if you claim a problem and don't provide reproduceability, you're going to get striked. It's not so much different from rule1..

I said I'am a novice.....

there is no error, simply the application freeze

[Doom9]

there's logs, jobs, etc.. it doesn't take a masters degree to post them. And if you say you're a novice, if your AviSynth script has more lines than you have fingers, something is really wrong.

[max-holz]

there's logs, jobs, etc.. it doesn't take a masters degree to post them. And if you say you're a novice, if your AviSynth script has more lines than you have fingers, something is really wrong.

No log, simply the application freeze and CPU goes to 100% when I press the button Queue,

[Doom9]

geez.. can I reproduce that? Screw that godawful script.. take a simple three liner that loads the d2v, crops and resizes, then explain what you do starting with you double clicking on megui.exe. This is the basics of error reporting, I presume everybody knows that as everybody knows the basics of what do do when your car won't work (check batteries, gas, the real obvious things that even somebody without any flair for technology can handle).
I like to make sure that my app runs as good as it can and that everybody can use it.. but it's people like you who'll eventually make me stop caring altogether.. I have already provided countless of hours for the community, and I think it's not unreasonable to ask for as little as a proper report in return. Gosh, I feel like never come back again right now.

[max-holz]

geez.. can I reproduce that? Screw that godawful script.. take a simple three liner that loads the d2v, crops and resizes, then explain what you do starting with you double clicking on megui.exe. This is the basics of error reporting, I presume everybody knows that as everybody knows the basics of what do do when your car won't work (check batteries, gas, the real obvious things that even somebody without any flair for technology can handle).
I like to make sure that my app runs as good as it can and that everybody can use it.. but it's people like you who'll eventually make me stop caring altogether.. I have already provided countless of hours for the community, and I think it's not unreasonable to ask for as little as a proper report in return. Gosh, I feel like never come back again right now.

With a simple script like this:

LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\DGMPGDec\DGDecode.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\Scambio\Elaborazione Video\Hana\agk_tmp\Hana.d2v")

the application works well, so I think there is something wrong in the script that I post above. As I said I'am not practice about AviSynth simply I run AutoGK and then I use his script.

[Doom9]

ahh.. see, now we're already getting somewhere ;) Was it that hard?
SelectRangeEvery(300,15)looks like you picked a compressibility check script. Still, a complete description of what you're doing is still essential to narrow things down.. it very much matters what you are doing in MeGUI, every click can potentially matter. Even a simple "load avs, press queue" goes through hundreds of lines of code. You cannot know at which line it freezes, but if you flood me with details, I might be able to figure it out, and that in turn might lead to something else, etc. Just look at http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=99909 for a good example on how the smallest of details can matter a lot, and how not properly investigating can lead to false conclusions.

[max-holz]

ahh.. see, now we're already getting somewhere ;) Was it that hard?
SelectRangeEvery(300,15)looks like you picked a compressibility check script. Still, a complete description of what you're doing is still essential to narrow things down.. it very much matters what you are doing in MeGUI, every click can potentially matter. Even a simple "load avs, press queue" goes through hundreds of lines of code. You cannot know at which line it freezes, but if you flood me with details, I might be able to figure it out, and that in turn might lead to something else, etc. Just look at http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=99909 for a good example on how the smallest of details can matter a lot, and how not properly investigating can lead to false conclusions.

I press the button to import the script and then ok, the application freeze at this moment. If you want you can use the script changing some few lines and test by yourself.

[dimzon]

Great, now we can create complete PSP videos without extra tools.
Oh wait we can't, we can't upsample audio to 48000Khz :devil: :D

Next step replace NAAC with WAAC and we all happy! (N = Nero, W = Winamp) :scared: :goodpost:

(Nero = AACPLUS v1 (AAC+SBR))
(Winamp = AACPLUS v1/v2 (AAC+SBR+PS))
(Yes Nero can do ABR on AAC+SBR, but when the file size is so small and still sounds so well, who cares about ABR?)

:devil: :devil: mode: Support both Nero and Winamp, shall we start paypal for Doom9? The poor guy. :eek:
And don't forget about reference AAC+2 encoder :)

[Doom9]

And don't forget about reference AAC+2 encoderAs I said, I won't support a gazillion AAC encoders. Plus, one thing to consider for your 5.1 attempts: there's only 2 ch channel coupling if you create 3 2ch streams and merge them together.. not quite ideal. And the reference encoder is cbr only as well and reference encoders aren't exactly known for speed.

I press the button to import the script and then ok, the application freeze at this moment.previously you said it froze when you pressed queue.. that's quite something different. Also, it matters if you have automatic script preview activated or not.

[berrinam]

@max-holz: If you want automated cropping and resizing, MeGUI can do that for you, without the hassle of copying the AutoGK script. As Doom9 said, the easiest thing to use if you want an AutoGK-like operating mode is the One Click Encoder which is part of MeGUI.