madVR - General discussion thread

[maxkill]

Very interesting, that is certainly odd. Does it still show that when using DXVA2 copyback or D3D11? It is strange that a screenshot does not capture it but you see it on your display, that makes it seem like it is being caused by the GPU or the display. Maybe the sharper chroma is causing a moiré pattern or something? Great test scene. :)

Maybe set chroma upscaling to DXVA so you don't accidentally use something else when not using DXVA decoding.

Edit: Are you running a 3DLUT?
Using the 3dlut in my guide for smoother 4k image.
Not sure what you mean, how do I check this about dxva2 and d3d11 for chroma upscaling? I only changed chroma upscaling and trade quality for performance tabs. I did check and uncheck the top DXVA option in trade quality for performance tab for this as can be seen in the guide.
Yeah maybe, I have no clue why it's doing that when not dxva. =)

[maxkill]

ok go to rendering screenshoots and have a read.

i'm not going to waste my time on jpg and i'm not going to argue the countless possibilities for messed up colors.
Must have been a bug about not being able to save the screenshot from player, now could save the non dxva effect. Here is the non dxva NGU medium filter setting png image distortion
https://imgur.com/wysqNeE

[Asmodian]

Does it happen without the 3DLUT? I have seen similar artifacts from 3DLUTs before.

In the LAV Video settings look at the hardware decoding options to change between native and copyback.

[huhn]

Must have been a bug about not being able to save the screenshot from player, now could save the non dxva effect. Here is the non dxva NGU medium filter setting png image distortion
https://imgur.com/wysqNeE

not sure how this isn't reaching you but default madVR is ignoring your setting for screenshoot and uses NGU sharp with grain and is ignoring calibration settings unlike capture screen.

if you just would go to rendering->screenshoots and read it you would know that. now it's a bug?

if you wanna prof some color issues use default setting madVR get an ground truth RGB image and scale this image and same the image as PNG with control/alt print not the screenshoot function and upload it to a page that doesn't mess up images.

[maxkill]

Does it happen without the 3DLUT? I have seen similar artifacts from 3DLUTs before.

In the LAV Video settings look at the hardware decoding options to change between native and copyback.
No difference when disabling 3dlut!

I don't have LAV Video? I can only see LAV Audio which I'm using.

[maxkill]

not sure how this isn't reaching you but default madVR is ignoring your setting for screenshoot and uses NGU sharp with grain and is ignoring calibration settings unlike capture screen.

if you just would go to rendering->screenshoots and read it you would know that. now it's a bug?

if you wanna prof some color issues use default setting madVR get an ground truth RGB image and scale this image and same the image as PNG with control/alt print not the screenshoot function and upload it to a page that doesn't mess up images.
Oh I get what you mean, the settings for screenshots in the madvr filter, certainly that is true. I'm have been saving images from the player with these madvr screenshot default settings then using File-Save image. Apart from the prnt screen ones.

Good idea, you want me to prnt screen the movie while holding Ctrl which give you a png instead of jpg, got it!

What site do you prefer?

[huhn]

i don't care about the image host as long as it works lossless with PNG and well is... SFW without an add block obviously

[takenori]

if i want to restore madvr default setting but i want to keep the scaling profile, what files do i need to keep/restore in madvr folder?

[Asmodian]

That is not possible, all the settings live in one file so you will lose the scaling profile if you reset settings.

[SamuriHL]

A small general observation that's probably not useful, but, I upgraded my HTPC to Windows 10 1903 (release candidate potentially RTM build) and in my VERY limited testing, it didn't seem to break anything madvr related. So, that's good I guess. LOL

[mclingo]

ive had not a single problem for ages now, amd drivers are very stable at the moment, dont think ill go 1903 right now though, very brave...

[SamuriHL]

I knew I could roll back if i had issues so I figured I'd check it out. Hasn't seem to change anything HTPC wise.

[mclingo]

i'd been running on a very stable system for a while now with no problems at all with workaround in place for the two remaining AMD card issues, oversat red and HDMI loss dropping back 60hz from 3D, i've not had a single problem for ages, nothing, nada, zero.

So why did I try and update LAV/MADVR/AMD drivers this weekend gone, why?, because i'm a moron.

Thinking i'm missing out on something as I always do but usually manage to talk myself out of updating, this time I went ahead. I just did MADVR first, SDR check 23,976, check, HDR, check, 3D total mess, hdmi loss all over the place and it would often start the movie in top right hand side of screen in 1080p res on my 4k TV, i got a sort of fix by turning FSE off but i'd still get HDMI loss even when I stopped the movie in KODI DS, I can workaround this but just thought it better to go back to stable if i couldnt fix it properly.

So I decided to try and fix it, I updated LAV and reinstalled KODI DS, still broken, no change at all. I updated AMD drive and bang, PC crashed and wont boot, totally corrupted windows, system restore wouldnt work, nothing worked, couldnt even get recovery to open, totally fecked so I was totally scuppered.

Luckily i'd taken a macrion image a few weeks prior and I was back up and running in a 30 mins.

Lessons learn yet again, dont update unless you have to and MADVR 0.92.17 dont play nice with 3D on my AMD card system so i'll be avoiding this release, anyone else had problems with 3D with AMD?


My current stable system is lav 0.72.0, madvr v0.92.14 - AMD - 19.2.2

[mclingo]

macrium free is a life saver !

[Klaus1189]

I would like to help, but I don't have any 3D capable TV here anymore, it was banned from tvs some time ago.

[mclingo]

i'd be gutted if I had to give up my 3D tv, i have a 2015 3d OLED, there was another model in 2016 but it was phased out on the 2017 models, hoping we'll see a return at some point glasses free, perhaps when everyones got board of HDR and 8K

Main thing is its all working now, i'm not going to bother updating again until I have to or there is a big update to MADVR or LAV filters.

[chros]

i'm not going to bother updating again until I have to
I feel your pain, just always remember 1 of the golden rules of IT: If it's not broken, don't fix it :)

Something else: can we continue this discussion (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-194.html#post57894266) here?
@Manni said that it's documented here somewhere, do you have a link?

How would you double check an SDR DCI-P3 3dlut (created by DisplayCal) - for hdr2sdr pixelshader - using HCFR?
Just check the hdr checkbox under madVR setting in HCFR? Which option do you have to choose with the HDR button on madtest window?

Thanks

[NoTechi]

@mclingo I am with you since I like to play with all kind of betas and new stuff as well taking the risk to break things. And I never have backups :D
However reading your AMD experience with new drivers it sounds it would not be really different as with nvidia in regards to stability/bugs. I was really considering AMDs new gpus since Nvidia stopped supporting 3D.
Seems i am stuck now :(

NoTechi

[mclingo]

@mclingo I am with you since I like to play with all kind of betas and new stuff as well taking the risk to break things. And I never have backups :D
However reading your AMD experience with new drivers it sounds it would not be really different as with nvidia in regards to stability/bugs. I was really considering AMDs new gpus since Nvidia stopped supporting 3D.
Seems i am stuck now :(

NoTechi

yeah there are some issues but i'm sure my recent issues are down to my complex system and others wouldnt have the same problem, but given the choice I would still always recommend an AMD card for a straight HTPC user, you only want to go green if your a gamer, but then again AMD are very close in that arena too. With NVIDIA dropping 3D now as well I see no reason at all to buy an NVIDIA card if you are not gaming.

Here's why I would always go red for HTPC users.

Advantages:

1. 23,976 playback supported which means no messing with custom resolutions, MADVR can sometimes shows frame drops in days rather that seconds or minutes.

2. 3D support, now nvidia no longer has 3D this is obviously a win but 3D on NVIDIA cards has always been buggy, i've never had it working as reliable on my 1060/1050 than i've had on every single of the 20+ AMD cards i've owned.

3. They quite a bit cheaper.


4. They support 8/10/12 bit with no issues i am aware of.

5. There drivers are very stable, AMD very rarely break something, I can only remember one driver which broke HDR and I'm not even sure it wasnt just an issue with my system, this was ages ago, AMD have been very consistent here.

6. Black screen coming out of 3D playback form 1080p to 4k60hz, i'm convinced this is a MADVR issue though.


Disadvantages:

1. Less powerful generally than NVIDIA cards. less processing power in MADVR.

2. There is a colour saturation problem that it doesnt look like AMD understand and so arent fixing. This only affects 2D SDR movies SUB 60hz oin HDR TVs, this can easily be fixed by calibrating your TV for BT2020 in MADVR.


guys though, this isnt meant to be a red vs green rant, these are objective differences.

[chros]

this isnt meant to be a red vs green rant, these are objective differences.
+1
Disadvantages:

3. more power consumption -> heat -> noise

[nevcairiel]

Also don't forget that AMD has the worst video decoder and encoder out of the 3 vendors. And I really wouldn't call them significantly cheaper. NVIDIA has a similar price/performance lineup, not always giving you a 1:1 match, but often something slightly slower for slightly cheaper, or slightly faster for more.

[DMU]

Disadvantages:

1. Less powerful generally than NVIDIA cards. less processing power in MADVR.

2. There is a colour saturation problem that it doesnt look like AMD understand and so arent fixing. This only affects 2D SDR movies SUB 60hz oin HDR TVs, this can easily be fixed by calibrating your TV for BT2020 in MADVR.

For Vega's here (http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=596)

[x7007]

This is what I got from Cyberlink about no 3D now ..

Thank you for contacting CyberLink Technical Support.

We understand that you want to know how to watch 3D movies with PowerDVD 17. We are more than willing to assist you.

With reference to your query, please be advised that the GPU manufacturer NVIDIA has removed the 3D playback feature (NVIDIA 3D Vision) from their GPU products, effective on the new driver version 430.39.

It will revoke the 3D video/image playback function and compatibility completely on the GPU hardware, and disable CyberLink PowerDVD for playing 3D videos/images with 3D effects accordingly.

The software player (PowerDVD) cannot reversely operate the 3D video playback function via the GPU hardware because the 3D playback function has been removed directly on hardware/hardware driver level.

To continue using the 3D playback feature on user's NVIDIA GPU platform, please reinstall the GPU driver to previous version 425.31 or earlier versions from NVIDIA driver page.

Please feel free to contact us back for further clarification or assistance related to CyberLink Products. Use the link below to get back to us.

https://membership.cyberlink.com/support/service/technical-support.do

Thanks and Regards,

Arvin
CyberLink Technical Support

[huhn]

570/580 is currently not beatable by nvidia not even close well at least for gaming.
the missing API and features on AMD cards are not even funny anymore... playing a UHD 60 HZ video from youtube you better have a beefy CPU if you have an AMD card.

processing power is more complicated. AMD is usually generally faster in raw performance(and was pretty much always better in madVR until polaris come around) if we take die size and price as a comparison and ignore NGU, needi3 and obviously vega 7...
if you take performance/watt AMD just fails across the board.

[nevcairiel]

570/580 is currently not beatable by nvidia not even close well at least for gaming.

Not sure about the 570, but the 1660 should be close to a 580, both in price and performance.

[huhn]

they literally throwing RX 580 at people: https://geizhals.de/?cat=gra16_512&xf=9809_14+5792+-+RX+580+(XTX)

and the 1660 is faster

[mclingo]

you can get a used RX 580 4gb on ebay for £99, which is the nearest nvidia card to the 580 and how much is that?.


EDIT - 1060 3gb are also going for same price now...

[huhn]

ignore the used market way to hit or miss or let me say it this way i would not buy an outdated card with missing features that may have problems.
the used market is very different depends on locations while the new market should be similar.

[mclingo]

ive almost always bought used, just a massive waste of money buying new, never had any issues, ever. By missing features I guess you're talking about full hardware VP9 decoding?, never been a dealbreaker for me, I dont consume anything I care about the quality of on youtube, what is there in 4k thats really worth watching in 4k, reviews and demos?

[huhn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFHHGETsxkE

[mclingo]

...not saying content does exist on youtube, just that most people consume high quality media elsewhere and that i doubt vp1 decoding is near the top of many peoples cards requirements list.

[huhn]

VP9 is a default feature on all GPU except amd and the only way to get high resolution YT videos. netflix plans on using VP9 too.

there are other features missing. an working API to flag the stream as BT2020 at the player choice, d3d9 overlay is simply missing and the HDR api doesn't work with 8 bit these are just some of the thing i can spontaneously bring up.

[mclingo]

most will be going av1, vp9 will be obsolete. Cant see a reason for 8bit hdr either, all hdr movies are 10 bit anyway.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13365/youtube-publishes-first-videos-transcoded-using-av1

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/netflix-and-netflix-to-deploy-av1-codec-for-content-streaming.html

[huhn]

and HEVC will be obsolete too one day... what the reasoning behind that.

they are 10 bit YCbCr not RGB and i'm not going to tell you why that matter.
and well know Tv produce banding when feed with 10 bit and i really really want to see you sending 10 bit RGB at 60 HZ.

[mclingo]

no banding here, never been able to reproduce those issues people have reported.

[Asmodian]

It is pretty obvious you are an AMD fan, you do not mind their issues and limitations while Nvidia's bother you a lot, and you assume everyone else should feel the same way. That is fine but don't expect everyone else to judge the differences as completely in favor of AMD as you do. What limitations matter to you change with your use case(s).

No HDR at 8 bit is huge for me, 8 bit HDR works great on my TV (even better than 10 bit, 2017 LG OLED :mad:) and I can watch 60 Hz HDR content. I do have HDR games as well, 60Hz HDR is really important for those. When Nvidia broke 8 bit HDR it was not good, this newest driver (430.39) has a lot of fixes which are really appreciated. AMD really needs to allow 8 bit HDR as well.

I have been doing custom installs of Nvidia's drivers to avoid installing the 3D support for a long time, so removing that is a minor improvement in my mind; not a negative. For me, right now, the limitations that come with an Nvidia GPU are much better than the ones that come with an AMD GPU.

[nevcairiel]

I agree with Asmodian, I was never a fan of 3D at home either (or even at the cinema for that matter, it just doesn't improve the experience for me, and the glasses bug me), so the improvements in the recent drivers are definitely a net gain.

[mclingo]

3D wasnt that important to me initially as I had to use active glasses to get full frame 3d and they were cumbersome and where the flicker was barely noticeable it was there, I put up with it as for me it did add something for me even though I was only using a 55 inch TV at the time.

This changed completely when I moved up to a 65inch OLED with passive 3D, this was night a day difference, you barely notice the glasses are there as they weigh nothing at all and 3D depth coupled with pure black and the dynamics of OLED makes a truely incredible experience, better than cinema picture-wise.

If you havent exeprienced this first hand with a well made 3D blockbuster its hard to describe, to the point where I think people who say they still dont think OLED 3D is any good, havent actually experienced it properly. This is why there was a massive petition to LG about keeping 3D, it was one of the OLEDs best features.

i'm no AMD fan boy by the way, I always buy what I need from whoever is doing it best at the time, if NVIDIA hard sorted out their 3D years ago i might not have ever tried AMD cards, I had been using NVIDIA cards since the first Geforce 256 cards decades ago.

You are right though, we are all more sensitive to those features we require and less so to those we're not, this should be obvious though, I still think though for the average HTPC user who doesn't game an AMD is better card generally but I get thats still going to be subjective even though there are a number of objective differences.

[Asmodian]

The focal plane not matching the depth makes this fake 3D never really work for me. It is a problem for VR as well. We really need good light fields for 3D. :(

[mclingo]

hmm, seems a bit nit picky to me, its more about the wow factor than accuracy, the wow factor watching something like avator in 3D on a big OLED is palatable.

[Asmodian]

The first time, sure, but the second or third time? It looses the wow really fast and the focal plane being wrong keeps it from felling real, it is always seems like an effect rather than being more immersive. At least for me. :)

The problem with 3D OLEDs is that you have to make the panel worse for everything else to be able to do it, and it adds cost. The film that polarizes every other row of pixels differently blocks light, unnecessarily when not using 3D. Even without 3D we have trouble getting enough brightness for good HDR with OLEDs, HDR + 3D is harder. 3D lost to HDR.

[SamuriHL]

It's why I moved my panny plasma to another room for the 3D titles I have. I agree that HDR is where it's at right now. That's how these things go. 3D will be back, but, it'll be when 8K comes around as a true standard and glasses free. Until then, I'll enjoy the content I have on my plasma and my HDR on my OLED. :)

[NoTechi]

On a projector 3D is stunning and I am not gona give up on that. Most movies are in 3D more impressive then HDR where the picture depth just can't be reached as in 3D. However it is a bit anti social to watch 3D with friends and having glasses on ;)

I will wait and see how AMDs new Navi will perform. Or I even might try the Radeon 7 and if it is just to support the manufacturer who keeps supporting 3D.

NoTechi

[mclingo]

The first time, sure, but the second or third time? It looses the wow really fast and the focal plane being wrong keeps it from felling real, it is always seems like an effect rather than being more immersive. At least for me. :)

The problem with 3D OLEDs is that you have to make the panel worse for everything else to be able to do it, and it adds cost. The film that polarizes every other row of pixels differently blocks light, unnecessarily when not using 3D. Even without 3D we have trouble getting enough brightness for good HDR with OLEDs, HDR + 3D is harder. 3D lost to HDR.

yeah, toally agree about 3D filter and its affect on HDR brightness etc, my EF950 isnt really a HDR TV even though it supports it.

Here's the thing though, i've seen HDR movies on a 2018 OLED and Sony ZD9 on my mates TV's and I just wasnt impressed at all, it was better sure but even my mates say that sat in a pitch black room in front of mine OLED 3D decimates HDR for immersion.

I now HDR has got better since the ZD9 but I just dont think it will ever top the depth and dynamics of OLED 3D, remember in a pitch black room you dont need oodles of nits.

but yeah subjective, i'll be genuinely devastated when 3D blurays finally croak though :(

[mclingo]

On a projector 3D is stunning and I am not gona give up on that. Most movies are in 3D more impressive then HDR where the picture depth just can't be reached as in 3D. However it is a bit anti social to watch 3D with friends and having glasses on ;)

I will wait and see how AMDs new Navi will perform. Or I even might try the Radeon 7 and if it is just to support the manufacturer who keeps supporting 3D.

NoTechi

just remember you wont really need a massively high performing card to watch MVC 3D movies, they are already high quality, you only really need to run NGU high with no other processing and the current RX580 can already do that, as long as you can contain the fan noise. I run my card alsmost silent at NGU sharp medium for both chroma and upscaling for 3D movies, I also add a tiny bit of super-res on the TV itself just the shapren up the grain, this works really well as takes the processing off my PC.

[Alexkral]

Passive 3D is stunning for me as well on a big screen, and even more if you do frame interpolation by SVP or any other method. I don't know why, but the feeling of the light coming from the scene is much more realistic, I think it must be related to the fact that the light changes are smoother.
I have an EDID override for 3DVision but I have not used it for some time, if I remember correctly Tridef is a pretty good alternative, but in any case I don't plan to update the drivers. And I encode the 3D Blu-rays to full OU with Frim source, so for the movies I don't care.
The focal plane not matching the depth makes this fake 3D never really work for me. It is a problem for VR as well. We really need good light fields for 3D. :(
I agree that in the worst case it feels like a pop-up book, but when the 3D is well done I hardly notice that, and even less with the VR.

[mclingo]

yeah there are some really poorly done movies, cant disagree there, most of the MARVEL ones have been pretty decent though, star wars ok but could have done with a bit more depth and pop. One of the best ive seen is actually titanic which is a full conversion, its pretty incredible what they've done there.

I could probably name loads that look great, I own nearly every one released.

[SamuriHL]

Avatar remains one of the best 3d experiences.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[NoTechi]

just remember you wont really need a massively high performing card to watch MVC 3D movies

Yes but I need/want it all like 1080p upscaling, all the new dynamic HDR stuff near max settings and so on. Beside that it never hurts to have a fast card where you don't have to go to it's limits. :)

NoTechi

[Charky]

Avatar remains one of the best 3d experiences.
The fact that "one the best 3D experiences" is ten years old says lots of things about the current state of that tech...