madVR - General discussion thread

[mclingo]

Hi, this thread has been created for general discussion relating to MADVR, your hardware and software setups., nothing is out of bounds here but If you have a technical question about problems you are experiencing with MADVR then please visit the main thread below.


https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228

[mclingo]

How are people managing ABL on their LG panels?, i've managed to defeat mine by a combination of this method here and setting my OLED light to 60

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2440714-how-turn-off-asbl-lg-oled-tv.html

[Sunset1982]

I use a setting of 30-35, this results in a brightness of lower than 160 nits and no abl usage.

I also disabled ASBL in the service menu and deactivated pixelshift and logo dimming in the settings (logodimming is only available with 2018 oleds)

Does anyone have some more detailed informations about lg oleds only doing 8 bit with RGB? The panel is native 10bit and i never heard about 8bit usage in RGB mode...?


What settings (madvr, gpu and blacklevel) do you guys use with your madvr machines and you oleds?

[Sunset1982]

Is there a good testfile to test 10bit and/or banding on the oleds?


And I wonder if there is a way to show full 4:4:4 resolution in 24hz mode... PC mode with full 4:4:4 support only works with 60hz output on lg oleds... Any idea?!

[mclingo]

ive no idea where the 8 bit thing came from to be honest, ive tried tests in the past but never really found out, far as i'm aware my panel if 10bit throughout.

My full chain:

AMD DRIVER SETTING: 4:4:4 FULL RGB 8bit
MADVR 0-255 - 10 bit setting
DENON AVR-X2200 - straight passthrough
TV - set to bluray mode, named "HTPC"
BLACK LEVEL "HIGH"
Brightness 52
gamma 2.4 for 3D and HDR, 2.2 for SDR

[mclingo]

is the a one stop shop 100% full proof way of knowing whether you are outputting 10bit or not, there were some gradients I once had a look at but they looked the same regardless of what I did or how a played them, even with dithering disabled.

[blu3wh0]

My B7 does 4K RGB 4:4:4 12 bits 23Hz in PC mode without a problem (nvidia does not support 10 bit on HDMI RGB). You can check this in the options you have available for video, but any chroma test will show you the difference between the normal mode and PC mode. madVR already tells you are in 12 bits if you have nvidia. Otherwise if you have a receiver such as a Denon, you can tell in the video information properties.

My OLED light is set to 29, and with the rest of the calibrations has 120 nits, so ABL is always disabled this way.

[mclingo]

Hi, how are you calculating your nits?

[blu3wh0]

I measure it with an i1display pro, but it's mainly OLED light that determines it.

[mclingo]

what tools are you using to minimise any chance of burn in, i use Dark reader in Chrome, this plugin tries to set all white backgrounds to black, does a decent enough job but get some stuff wrong and has a few bugs. I've tried to install a black theme in windows but its a masiive faff and I dont like messing with windows protected files.

DARK READER

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/dark-reader/eimadpbcbfnmbkopoojfekhnkhdbieeh?hl=en

I also hide my taskbar but have an unhide set on my remote and set my desktop to black. The only other thing I use is this great little app:


https://www.thewindowsclub.com/remove-and-restore-show-desktop-button-with-showdesktop-remover


When you hide your taskbar it leaves a little one pixel dot in the right corner, this hides that.

[SamuriHL]

I don't use the HTPC for more than watching video so I don't worry about burn-in as I don't have a static image on there long enough to cause problems. I've got my OLED light set to 40 which is high but I have a lot of ambient light.

[kostik]

The method entering Service menu works on LG C8 Oleds? BTW, is there any other option to make it work with an Android smartphone without IR?

My 65C8 is connected to PC which is my only source. What I do is first of all enable "Hide taskbar" and the second (when not watching movies) is using oled light 10 and enabling screensaver. Didn't have any burn-in issues and I am already at 979 Hours Power On.

Is there any benefit using 'PC Mode' to enable 4:4:4 subsampling ? Does 4:4:4 have any advantage for movies ?

BTW, FW 4.10.05 finally fixed PC Mode wrong 'Color Gamut' when playing HDR and fixed 4:4:4 subsampling . (I am talking about LG OLED XXC8)

[SamuriHL]

So they have! Nice find. Thanks for that info.

[kostik]

So .. I managed to access my C8 service menu . I disabled TPC (ABSL) and there is also something called "HDR Module" which is set to 'Normal'. When I put it on "ON", I noticed the peak "brightness" went up even on "SDR" mode

[mclingo]

ive not seen any advantages on my panel using PC mode, on mine though you lose all processing, I like to use trumotion at level 3 as it does a fantastic job of smoothing out panning shots without any soap opera effect, this is essential to me.

[mclingo]

some are stating that increasing brightness in SDR may cause issues with colour reproduction, i'm probs going to leave it as it is for now.

[SamuriHL]

I messed around with pc mode for a bit last night but ended up turning it off again. I don't have time right now to calibrate it for that mode but I may revisit at some point.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[blu3wh0]

Trumotion look like crap to me in any mode, and I always disable most processing since it always makes things worse. The only two good processing options are Real Motion and dynamic tone mapping. PC mode will only work right for SDR, it always uses REC 709 for HDR (unless you have the fix in the 2018 models). RGB 4:4:4 is important because that's what madVR and the video process in, anything else will require conversion. HDR mode will require taking this hit, but I let my TV process from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2.

I do leave pixel shifting and ASBL enabled since neither effect movies or games, I could see where this could be an issue if you use the TV as a monitor. I have a separate monitor for normal computer functions (everything but movies/games).

FYI, there should be no additional calibrations required going to PC mode, whatever ISF calibrations you set will be exactly the same in PC (although you might need to set them).

[mclingo]

I only use it for one reason. There is an issue sometimes in screen pans, say for instance there is a pan across a bright light again a dark back drop, but i;ve also seen this on windows frames and white posts, what happens is as the screen pans across the lines wobble quite badly, this doesn't happen on LCD as there is motion blur, there is no motion blur on OLED.

i'll post and example movie shortly you can have a look at.

[SamuriHL]

Trumotion is one of the things I killed when I went through my settings last night. I don't miss it at all. It was creating some REALLY nasty artifacts during panning for me. I'd prefer it not do that!

[blu3wh0]

I can take a look at a sample, it might be beneficial sometimes, but for 99% of content it feels completely unnatural. You might try to use PC mode for SDR content during the same panning scene since I think the loss of all processing and decreased latency does smooth things out more correctly. This might be placebo in regards to panning, but mouse movement at 23Hz is much faster in PC mode (I always keep it at 23Hz unless I play games).

[SamuriHL]

FYI, there should be no additional calibrations required going to PC mode, whatever ISF calibrations you set will be exactly the same in PC (although you might need to set them).

Yea, something is very wrong then cause when I enable PC mode on my C8, the colors are off. And that happens even with my UB820 so it's not a HTPC issue. So I'm not sure what's happening there and didn't have time to mess with that as I wanted to get other settings configured right.

madshi suggested the dynamic tone mapping might actually help us with the HDR output of madvr pixel math option *MAYBE*. In theory if the LG dynamic tone mapping sees that madvr already tone mapped the frame it COULD (theoretically mind you) disable its own tone mapping so we may get the best of both worlds, as madshi put it. But this is untested. Something I'll be looking at today cause madvr's tone mapping is freaking phenomenal. Converted to SDR I miss the brightness of HDR mode but the quality is out of this world. So I'll be playing with HDR output mode of the pixel math option in madvr later today to see what it looks like with dynamic tone mapping on and off and compare both settings on my UB820, as well, to kind of get a comparison. That would be awesome if it does disable its own tone mapping in such cases!

[mclingo]

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgvFafeelEBigP8PGs09pKjlJpH0vQ

ok, play this with motion turned off, watch the neon light "24" as it pans across, watch it a few times and try to remember how it looks. Then play it with motion on a low settings, mine is at 3. You will see positive difference, the definition of the image stays more defined, lines wobble a lot less. For me it was about finding a threshold I could live with, 3 was that threshold, anything else starts to go soap opera like and introduces artefacts on 3D movies.

[mclingo]

i have to say I currently have no issues at all with HDR, most things look fine to me, my main issues have been the oversat of reds in SDR 23hz material but thats now gone for some reason. HDR toggle works and 3D toggle does too, the only workaround i'm having to use is MADVR still isnt refresh rate switching properly coming out of 1080p 3D MVC, every single time I stop a movie I get HDMI loss and have to reboot, MADVR I think is sending something to my GFX card which is crashing its driver or something, cant work it out. I can however get the picture back if I drop to 1080p so ive set a devcon refresh and res change on a button on my remote for when this happens so I can at least reboot cleanly.

Ive ask MADSHI to look at this but he keeps saying its driver related, if it were it would crash in KODI and MPCBE/MPCHC but it doesnt, if I use those for refresh rate switching I have no issues, i wish he's fix this.

[jerryleungwh]

Hi I don't know a lot about the technical things but may I ask what are some suggested settings for the hdr page? I have an 4k OLED that supports and from what I've read, tone mapping then outputting in HDR format should give the best quality, but I'm not sure what parameters I should use for this option

[suanm]

My only hope is the highlights recovery algorithm can improve dramatically soon after.There is nothing else but the highlights recovery algorithm improvements.I think all of madvr are getting better and better

[mclingo]

Hi I don't know a lot about the technical things but may I ask what are some suggested settings for the hdr page? I have an 4k OLED that supports and from what I've read, tone mapping then outputting in HDR format should give the best quality, but I'm not sure what parameters I should use for this option

hi, thats a fair question but would be better asked that on the main forum to get max exposure, I dont know the answer to this as I use the TV's own tone mapping, just havent experimented yet.

i only created this because people were complaining about the amount space OLED config and MADVR was talking up, general HDR questions should be fine.

[pirlouy]

Can you change the title please ?
It looks too much like the madVR thread. From what I understand, it's essentially a discussion about OLED, so "Oled setup" would be enough, but if yo want only madVR users and no mpv users, then "Oled setup with madVR".
Choose what you want but not "madVR - high quality video renderer".

[mclingo]

its meant to, this is for MADVR users with OLED TV's.

ill change it a little

[mariner]

Novice needs help with watching BT2020 content

Greetings.

Using madVR for watching 4K HDR yt content on standard monitor, and playback turns into a slide show. The setting is "Let madshi decide"

System is i7 NUC with HD620 graphics using mpc/LAV.

Appreciate any kind assistance.
Many thanks and best regards,

[mclingo]

Hi, happy to help but this might this will be better asked on the main thread for max exposure, there will llikely be other NUC users on there who have had this issue, this thread is mainly for OLED setup issues.

Main thread is here, if you dont get any joy come back here and we'll see if we can help.

https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=146228&page=2403

[mariner]

Thanks mclingo, will do so.

[mclingo]

ive opened up this thread to hardware and anything else so we can keep the tech thread clean.

[mclingo]

Hi, i'm going to have a look at MADVRs tone mapping compared to the TVs onboard, which nits value should I target for my TV do you think, see here.

LG OLED EF9500

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBigP8QPtXoBb1_wP7SwA

[Warner306]

Try 400 nits for PQ output. HDR -> SDR could use any value. It is a relative curve.

[mclingo]

thanks :)


really interested to see what this does on mine being first gen and with ABSL turned off.

[mclingo]

HI, whats a good movie / scene for testing tone mapping and highlights, can anyone recommend anything?

or a decent HDR test pattern.

[Warner306]

Avengers: Infinity War; Mad Max: Fury Road; Batman vs. Superman.

[mclingo]

I have interstellar HDR bluray, any particular scene you can think of in there?

[SamuriHL]

Murder on the Orient Express is another good one if you have it. Any of the scenes in the mountains when Daisy is being interrogated stand out pretty well.

[mclingo]

lovely, i'll have a look then.

[iSeries]

I don't think MadVR is able to prevent the TV from tonemapping - or at least it defintely doesn't in my C7. So if you tonemap with MadVR and output as HDR, the TV is still going to tonemap, which is of course unfortunate.

[mclingo]

ah right, might explain why it doesnt look any different at all to my eyes, I thought someone had said that wasnt true, no point using then I guess, cheers anyway.

[SamuriHL]

Yea I was trying to figure out if my C8 was disabling tone mapping or not if madvr was doing it and it doesn't appear to be the case. The TV is still tone mapping from what I can see. (Murder on the Orient Express was a much better test case for trying to figure that out in my case). What I don't understand is how the dynamic tone mapping on the Panasonic UB820 gets around this issue (if it actually does but in my testing it sure seems to). I tried with the LG's dynamic tone mapping on and off and it didn't seem to make any difference. I would have thought, and madshi agreed with the theory, that turning on dynamic tone mapping in the LG would mostly disable the tone mapping if it is already sent a properly tone mapped image for the max nit level for the display. That didn't appear to be the case, unfortunately.

[mclingo]

oh cool, thanks

[Sunset1982]

PC mode will only work right for SDR, it always uses REC 709 for HDR (unless you have the fix in the 2018 models). RGB 4:4:4 is important because that's what madVR and the video process in, anything else will require conversion. HDR mode will require taking this hit, but I let my TV process from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2.



The downside of LG's PC mode is, that it only works in 60hz mode. If you switch to 23/24 Hz the full 4:4:4 support drops... so you can not play movies in 24p with full 4:4:4. You would have to use 60hz mode an maybe smooth motion to get the movie judder free with full 4:4:4 support. Thats the only thing left that is still annoying. Anything else is running good an I am really satisfied with my setup.

My latest and working setup:

Windows 10 1809
Kodi DS Player 17.6
AMD RX480, 8GB with driver 18.9.3
madvr 0.92.17
lav filters 0.72.0-15
xysubfilter 3.1.0.751

LG 65" C8 OLED (Frimware 04.10.05) / Black Level: high
AMD settings: RGB Full, 10 bit
madvr: 0-255

[mclingo]

no issues here in PC mode, switches 23/24 fine, something is wrong there, thats kind of the point of PC mode

[mclingo]

you defo got deep colour enabled on all HDMI port?

[Sunset1982]

it will switch fine, but you wont get the full 4:4:4 support...

[mclingo]

you mean you cant set your PC desktop to 4:4:4 FULL RGB @23hz, are other resolutions greyed out, or does it just do nothing?. Doesnt MADVR output 4:4:4 full RGB 23hz when playing a movie?

i'll have a look at this later when I get home, i'm currently upgrading to 1803, and then to 1809 which i'm sure is going to be a mistake :(

[blu3wh0]

The downside of LG's PC mode is, that it only works in 60hz mode. If you switch to 23/24 Hz the full 4:4:4 support drops... so you can not play movies in 24p with full 4:4:4. You would have to use 60hz mode an maybe smooth motion to get the movie judder free with full 4:4:4 support. Thats the only thing left that is still annoying. Anything else is running good an I am really satisfied with my setup.

My latest and working setup:

Windows 10 1809
Kodi DS Player 17.6
AMD RX480, 8GB with driver 18.9.3
madvr 0.92.17
lav filters 0.72.0-15
xysubfilter 3.1.0.751

LG 65" C8 OLED (Frimware 04.10.05) / Black Level: high
AMD settings: RGB Full, 10 bit
madvr: 0-255

Have you actually tested this? When I tested 4K 4:4:4 PC mode on my TV, it displayed 4:4:4 properly on 23Hz, result was the same as 60Hz. I tested using "the quick brown fox" picture that is usually recommended, but you should be able to use any 4:4:4 test. Also, you know when it's properly active if most of the picture options are disabled, it will switch to a different mode on it's own if it doesn't work. FYI, 1080p 4:4:4 23Hz does not work under these conditions. You can also switch back and forth between any other mode and PC mode to easily tell the difference between these tests under the exact same settings.

Edit: I use Nvidia with it's funky 12 bit depth limitation for hdmi, so I have display resolution 4K RGB 4:4:4 12 bits as my setting, not as a TV resolution option that it might be setting for 1080p. I never investigated further since what I needed worked.

[Warner306]

Yea I was trying to figure out if my C8 was disabling tone mapping or not if madvr was doing it and it doesn't appear to be the case. The TV is still tone mapping from what I can see. (Murder on the Orient Express was a much better test case for trying to figure that out in my case). What I don't understand is how the dynamic tone mapping on the Panasonic UB820 gets around this issue (if it actually does but in my testing it sure seems to). I tried with the LG's dynamic tone mapping on and off and it didn't seem to make any difference. I would have thought, and madshi agreed with the theory, that turning on dynamic tone mapping in the LG would mostly disable the tone mapping if it is already sent a properly tone mapped image for the max nit level for the display. That didn't appear to be the case, unfortunately.

Can you take some screenshots of the Panasonic Blu-ray player to show what it is and isn't doing vs. madVR. I know the Panasonic preset for an OLED is 1,000 nits. This would mean only titles over 1,000 nits would receive any tone mapping at all. That is about 20% of currently available HDR movies. Are you changing other sliders to alter the 1,000 nits OLED preset?

I question whether the madVR pixel shader is working at all. One person said 100 nits was working fine. In absolute PQ nits, this would make the image almost entirely black. The image should get darker and darker as the target nits is lowered. It isn't possible for the display to make the input brighter because PQ values are absolute in terms of luminance. So 100 nits peak should be shown at 100 nits; 500 nits at 500 nits, etc. Tone mapping might make the image darker (reduce the luminance of some input values to match the brightness capabilities of the display), but the majority of displays will not make the image brighter. I would expect the color would change in some way when you use pixel shader, but changes in brightness should be more apparent with lower target nits. If this isn't happening, I would think pixel shader is not working correctly.

[mclingo]

just installing 1809 now, wish me luck !

.....although as i'm typing this i'm thinking... why are you doing this Mclingo...

[SamuriHL]

Can you take some screenshots of the Panasonic Blu-ray player to show what it is and isn't doing vs. madVR. I know the Panasonic preset for an OLED is 1,000 nits. This would mean only titles over 1,000 nits would receive any tone mapping at all. That is about 20% of currently available HDR movies. Are you changing other sliders to alter the 1,000 nits OLED preset?

I question whether the madVR pixel shader is working at all. One person said 100 nits was working fine. In absolute PQ nits, this would make the image almost entirely black. The image should get darker and darker as the target nits is lowered. It isn't possible for the display to make the input brighter because PQ values are absolute in terms of luminance. So 100 nits peak should be shown at 100 nits; 500 nits at 500 nits, etc. Tone mapping might make the image darker (reduce the luminance of some input values to match the brightness capabilities of the display), but the majority of displays will not make the image brighter. I would expect the color would change in some way when you use pixel shader, but changes in brightness should be more apparent with lower target nits. If this isn't happening, I would think pixel shader is not working correctly.

I'll probably be this weekend before I can get to that. Yes, I knew they use 1000 nits for the OLED setting. No, I'm not messing with the other sliders. However, the presets for HDR on the panasonic definitely change the picture.

That situation is what led me to the conclusion that the TV's tone mapping is not disabled. If I go down to 100 nits it's the same brightness as 1000. Maybe my conclusion is wrong and that the pixel shading isn't working when HDR mode is enabled. No matter what I change in madvr with pixel shader enabled in HDR mode, the picture does not seem to change so your assertion could be more correct than mine.

[SamuriHL]

just installing 1809 now, wish me luck !

.....although as i'm typing this i'm thinking... why are you doing this Mclingo...

I've had it installed for a few days now. It's fine.

[mclingo]

yeah, its went fairly well all things considered, It did cause the colour saturation issue on mine again which I now cant fix, I can only workaround it. Its really really odd that its only MADVR/SDR/23HZ material, everything else is ok. whats equally or even more odd is that when I calibrate in MADVR for BT2020 to fix this, it doesnt have any knock on effect on the other videos which were playing HDR / SDR @60hz, you;d think these would be changed in some way by MADVRs calibration for BT2020. odd.

This is why I think its a MADVR bug but MADSHI does not so it will probably never get fixed unless more people report the same issue, that doesnt look like its going to happen, either it is my system or there just arent that many people with similar enough setups.

The over saturation can be quite subtle in some movies though, could be some people just arent noticing it.

I could very happily live with the workaround permanently though, it has no other negative impact luckily.

[alps006]

I asked this same question elsewhere.Is there a difference between "passthrough HDR to dispaly" and "output video in HDR format" options in latest version of madVR? Thanks!

[huhn]

"output video in HDR format" where is this option?

[alps006]

It is under "devices" "hdr". I am using v0.92.17 with a recent test build."output video in HDR format" where is this option?

[huhn]

the option under "tone map using pixel shaders" is most likely a renamed from send HDR meta data to this because it make more sense.

the difference is that madVR will alter the image before sending it to the display but with that option it is still "HDR" type not SDR like with passthrough.

[alps006]

Thanks, huhn. That makes sense. I have great results enabling that option. Good natural colors without oversaturation. the option under "tone map using pixel shaders" is most likely a renamed from send HDR meta data to this because it make more sense.

the difference is that madVR will alter the image before sending it to the display but with that option it is still "HDR" type not SDR like with passthrough.

[mclingo]

off topic WINDOWS 1809 issue - you cant make the task bar black that I can find, you can get it very dark grey but not black, this unfortunately means that even if you hide the task bar to stop burn in on OLEDS there is still a line of grey pixels along the bottom of the screen which are there all the time, this is bad for OLEDS.

The only fix i've found so far is to install CLASSIC SHELL where you can set the task bar as fully black, not ideal.

[Warner306]

This is why I think its a MADVR bug but MADSHI does not so it will probably never get fixed unless more people report the same issue, that doesnt look like its going to happen, either it is my system or there just arent that many people with similar enough setups.

The over saturation can be quite subtle in some movies though, could be some people just arent noticing it.

I could very happily live with the workaround permanently though, it has no other negative impact luckily.

Did you ever determine if your display is calibrated for BT.709 in its color settings? If you select BT.2020, madVR would send BT.2020 to the display. You can confirm this in the OSD. The video driver would have to be lucky to accidentally convert BT.2020 to BT.709 and send it to the display without corrupting the image.

[Warner306]

I'll probably be this weekend before I can get to that. Yes, I knew they use 1000 nits for the OLED setting. No, I'm not messing with the other sliders. However, the presets for HDR on the panasonic definitely change the picture.

That situation is what led me to the conclusion that the TV's tone mapping is not disabled. If I go down to 100 nits it's the same brightness as 1000. Maybe my conclusion is wrong and that the pixel shading isn't working when HDR mode is enabled. No matter what I change in madvr with pixel shader enabled in HDR mode, the picture does not seem to change so your assertion could be more correct than mine.

It is more than a problem of the display disabling its tone mapping if 100 nits from madVR is the same brightness as 10,000 nits. When you select 100 nits, the entire range is supposed to be compressed to 100 nits. This would make the image very dark. The display can't reverse engineer these altered RGB values to restore the original source brightness.

[mclingo]

Did you ever determine if your display is calibrated for BT.709 in its color settings? If you select BT.2020, madVR would send BT.2020 to the display. You can confirm this in the OSD. The video driver would have to be lucky to accidentally convert BT.2020 to BT.709 and send it to the display without corrupting the image.

Hi, unfortunately my TV doesnt have any such settings, it set as stock with minor changes to low IRE colour settings only, I used to have a Sony LCD which did so I know what you mean.

However, this also happens with my Samsung TV so i've pretty much ruled Mt TV and AVR out of the equation.

I'm probs going to have to re-image my HTPC but I'm really reluctant to do that as its a 3 day build at least as its also a server with 12 disks in it - but also, if I dont know what is causing it, if it comes back I'll be back to square one and 3 days down.

I was hoping MADSHI had an AMD contact but because there are only a couple of people with this problem, and thats its defeatable, he's not really got time to look at it, which is fair enough.

I was just hoping that with the way it manifested itself it would be obvious to someone what was going on.

Thanks for your interest though :)

[SamuriHL]

It is more than a problem of the display disabling its tone mapping if 100 nits from madVR is the same brightness as 10,000 nits. When you select 100 nits, the entire range is supposed to be compressed to 100 nits. This would make the image very dark. The display can't reverse engineer these altered RGB values to restore the original source brightness.

That's quite true, but, the result I'm getting is exactly what I described. So something is very wrong and possibly with my setup. I'll see if I can look at it and figure out what's going on. Cause I agree with you, 100 nits should NOT be displaying the same brightness.

EDIT: Yea something's very wrong here. I went back to madvr 0.9.17 and I'm seeing the same problem so it's not the latest test builds. I'm getting the exact same output from the tone mapping option as I do with passthrough. Doesn't matter what I change on the tonemapping option.

[SamuriHL]

Ok, got some help from madshi on this. First, the assumption that 100 nits with HDR turned on would automatically be dark was wrong. There is simply no way to know what the TV is going to do. In my LG C8's case, it cranks up the brightness. Second, he gave me some excellent source material to show what's going on with. One is his 10000 nit color test pattern (32 bit players only) and the other is the spear in BvS. HDR tone mapping is *DEFINITELY* active and working. And with those 2 different source materials it's a huge difference. WAY more detail in the spear scene and even his test pattern with tone mapping enabled in madvr. Now I'll have to play some more tomorrow.

[mclingo]

Ok, got some help from madshi on this. First, the assumption that 100 nits with HDR turned on would automatically be dark was wrong. There is simply no way to know what the TV is going to do. In my LG C8's case, it cranks up the brightness. Second, he gave me some excellent source material to show what's going on with. One is his 10000 nit color test pattern (32 bit players only) and the other is the spear in BvS. HDR tone mapping is *DEFINITELY* active and working. And with those 2 different source materials it's a huge difference. WAY more detail in the spear scene and even his test pattern with tone mapping enabled in madvr. Now I'll have to play some more tomorrow.

no fair, I cant turn my tone mapping off on my TV :(

[blu3wh0]

Ok, got some help from madshi on this. First, the assumption that 100 nits with HDR turned on would automatically be dark was wrong. There is simply no way to know what the TV is going to do. In my LG C8's case, it cranks up the brightness. Second, he gave me some excellent source material to show what's going on with. One is his 10000 nit color test pattern (32 bit players only) and the other is the spear in BvS. HDR tone mapping is *DEFINITELY* active and working. And with those 2 different source materials it's a huge difference. WAY more detail in the spear scene and even his test pattern with tone mapping enabled in madvr. Now I'll have to play some more tomorrow.

When I initially tested this on a couple of movies, like you, I really couldn't tell the difference between passthrough and madVR tone mapping, no matter what peak brightness I chose. So, it's good to hear that there is actually a more subtle improvement. It sounds like we have no control over the brightness output of our TVs, but color/detail is not touched. In this case, what are the best options for madVR tone mapping with HDR output? What peak brightness should we set if this actually has no impact on our TVs? Or does this have some other subtle impact that we just haven't seen yet? I always have dynamic tone mapping on since it better represents what the brightness should be during the scene. Do these two things, dynamic tone mapping and madVR ton mapping, actually work together properly? I may do some testing this weekend since this sounds more promising now, meaning we could actually see some benefit from the HDR to SDR processing work. I just can't see myself watching HDR movies in SDR on our TVs due to the significantly limited brightness output.

[SamuriHL]

Your questions are very difficult to answer because it depends on a lot of variables. And I'm not entirely sure myself what looks "best" at the moment. Now that I have scenes which definitely show the differences it's a matter of sitting and testing. I'd start by using a target nit close to your TV max. For oled between 700 and 800. Then the restore details you'll have to play with. With hdr on I prefer a higher setting. Also make sure to turn on the color gamit option in the trade performance options. I highly recommend testing it on the BvS spear scene as you will see quite clearly what's happening with the picture with those options.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[SamuriHL]

no fair, I cant turn my tone mapping off on my TV :(That doesn't mean the option is entirely useless. Even if your TV is tone mapping you could benefit. Think about it this way... Your TV tone maps when the movie is above the limits of the TV. In theory, and I stress the theory part of this because as madshi said we don't actually know what the TV does internally, if you make it closer to the TV parameters the internal tone mapping should have less to do. Try what I recommend in my previous post and see what happens. It'll become very clear if there's a benefit or not.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[mclingo]

i tried it, it seemed to made no difference I could see, should I try a different value than 400 nits, what else can i try / change?

[SamuriHL]

What scene did you try it on? In motion it's hard to see the benefits clearly. Paused in the right scene the impact becomes crystal clear. I typically target about 800 nits.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[mclingo]

just what I had available, interstellar 4K HDR, the bit when they visit the cloud planet, coming down through the clouds, thought that would be good to show any highlights that were brought out.

My TV does 400 nits max at 2%, drops off horribly after that.

[SamuriHL]

Then keep the target nits at 400. As for the scene, it might be a good one to show or it might not. If you look at the AVS thread, there's a post from april that has a few of the test scenes that they're using to evaluate the changes in each test build. One of them is what they call the green spear scene from BvS and that's the one I used to see exactly what kind of differences I get from madvr tone mapping vs pass-through. I would recommend that. Or madshi's 10000 nit color test pattern. For that you'll have to install a 32 bit player if you don't have one, and then install his filter. I will tell you that is an amazing test pattern to see the differences. As soon as I loaded that up my mind was blown.

[mclingo]

my chain is still 32 bit as KODI DS was always more stable in 32 bit, it might be ok now, just havent tried it. I have a look at those test patterns then.

[mclingo]

just had a go at MADSHIs test patters. Ran this installer, nothing seemed to happen, opened one of he files with MPC-HC which has MADVR set as renderer, "failed to render", i'm trying this over an RDP connection from work to home, i'll try it again when i get home later.

[mclingo]

out of interest, why dont NVIDIA provide 23,976 native like AMD, is this hard coded into the architecture or something, seems really odd they've ignored this for so long, it would surely solve lots of CRU and driver issues?

[Warner306]

Ok, got some help from madshi on this. First, the assumption that 100 nits with HDR turned on would automatically be dark was wrong. There is simply no way to know what the TV is going to do. In my LG C8's case, it cranks up the brightness. Second, he gave me some excellent source material to show what's going on with. One is his 10000 nit color test pattern (32 bit players only) and the other is the spear in BvS. HDR tone mapping is *DEFINITELY* active and working. And with those 2 different source materials it's a huge difference. WAY more detail in the spear scene and even his test pattern with tone mapping enabled in madvr. Now I'll have to play some more tomorrow.

You should post some screenshots, so others can see what is supposed to be happening. It still sounds wacky when 100 nits and 1,000 nits produces the same brightness. I know the 2018 LG OLEDs have very dynamic tone mapping, but it sounds a little too dynamic. The PQ gamma curve is supposed to be predictable.

For example, you may have an RGB value of R(668) G(668) B(668). This is white to be shown at exactly 400 nits.

madVR might tone map this to R(519) G(519) B(519). This is white to be shown at exactly 100 nits.

Dynamic tone mapping is supposed to show the 400 nits white as close as possible to 400 nits to reduce compression whenever possible based on the brightness of the scene. Increasing the brightness of any value would destroy the intent of the original HDR grade. So the 100 nits white should also be shown at 100 nits. No HDR content would be graded to 100 nits. I don't know how the display would know to make this brighter. The image only gets darker to preserve detail, never brighter, unless the display is butchering the source.

Like I said, some screenshots would be helpful. Many will be confused by your results and probably won't know what to look for.

[Warner306]

Hi, unfortunately my TV doesnt have any such settings, it set as stock with minor changes to low IRE colour settings only, I used to have a Sony LCD which did so I know what you mean.

However, this also happens with my Samsung TV so i've pretty much ruled Mt TV and AVR out of the equation.

I'm probs going to have to re-image my HTPC but I'm really reluctant to do that as its a 3 day build at least as its also a server with 12 disks in it - but also, if I dont know what is causing it, if it comes back I'll be back to square one and 3 days down.

I was hoping MADSHI had an AMD contact but because there are only a couple of people with this problem, and thats its defeatable, he's not really got time to look at it, which is fair enough.

I was just hoping that with the way it manifested itself it would be obvious to someone what was going on.

Thanks for your interest though :)

I just looked up your display at Rtings.com. The color gamut should be set to "Standard" for BT.709 and "Wide" for BT.2020.

Quote:

"You can get a slightly wider color gamut when 'Color Gamut' is set to wide, but this isn't recommended for normal content because the colors will be over saturated."

[SamuriHL]

just had a go at MADSHIs test patters. Ran this installer, nothing seemed to happen, opened one of he files with MPC-HC which has MADVR set as renderer, "failed to render", i'm trying this over an RDP connection from work to home, i'll try it again when i get home later.

It's not going to work over RDP. But beyond that, DO NOT run the installer as admin. I made that mistake. Just run the bat file. "no fancy right click tricks" as madshi said to me. LOL

[SamuriHL]

You should post some screenshots, so others can see what is supposed to be happening. It still sounds wacky when 100 nits and 1,000 nits produces the same brightness. I know the 2018 LG OLEDs have very dynamic tone mapping, but it sounds a little too dynamic. The PQ gamma curve is supposed to be predictable.

For example, you may have an RGB value of R(668) G(668) B(668). This is white to be shown at exactly 400 nits.

madVR might tone map this to R(519) G(519) B(519). This is white to be shown at exactly 100 nits.

Dynamic tone mapping is supposed to show the 400 nits white as close as possible to 400 nits to reduce compression whenever possible based on the brightness of the scene. Increasing the brightness of any value would destroy the intent of the original HDR grade. So the 100 nits white should also be shown at 100 nits. No HDR content would be graded to 100 nits. I don't know how the display would know to make this brighter. The image only gets darker to preserve detail, never brighter, unless the display is butchering the source.

Like I said, some screenshots would be helpful. Many will be confused by your results and probably won't know what to look for.

I can post some screenshots later. This is a quote from madshi when I asked about the 100 nits vs 1000 nits being darker:


Why would it be quite dark? If the LG is detecting that the brightest pixel only has 100nits, the LG might pump up image brightness, making the overall image much brighter than when using a higher target peak nits setting in madVR. Or it might not. It's virtually impossible to predict how any TV will react to madVR doing tone mapping and then sending the video in HDR format. Virtually *anything* can happen.


In any case, yea, I'll try to do some screenshots a bit later.

[huhn]

out of interest, why dont NVIDIA provide 23,976 native like AMD, is this hard coded into the architecture or something, seems really odd they've ignored this for so long, it would surely solve lots of CRU and driver issues?

this is unbelievable unimportant for nvidia. HTPC is simple not important why do something that's still "working" if changing breaks something that is important or why should they waist time doing something for HTPC if they could improve FPS in what ever popular game about this and if you would really read into that topic you would very fast learn that a "perfect refreshrate" will not fix this issue because the real issue comes from the fact there is more than one (usually 3)clock generator and a they are far far from perfect.

the display HZ in madVR is relative to the system clock let's call it wrongly "CPU" clock but the repeated dropped frames come form a GPU and audio clock differences.

[mclingo]

I just looked up your display at Rtings.com. The color gamut should be set to "Standard" for BT.709 and "Wide" for BT.2020.

Quote:

"You can get a slightly wider color gamut when 'Color Gamut' is set to wide, but this isn't recommended for normal content because the colors will be over saturated."

Thanks yeah, I've got it set to WIDE for my HDR preset, I guess I should have known thats what they stood for sorry :)

[mclingo]

this is unbelievable unimportant for nvidia. HTPC is simple not important why do something that's still "working" if changing breaks something that is important or why should they waist time doing something for HTPC if they could improve FPS in what ever popular game about this and if you would really read into that topic you would very fast learn that a "perfect refreshrate" will not fix this issue because the real issue comes from the fact there is more than one (usually 3)clock generator and a they are far far from perfect.

the display HZ in madVR is relative to the system clock let's call it wrongly "CPU" clock but the repeated dropped frames come form a GPU and audio clock differences.

I guess their actions back up what you are saying, its unimportant to them but when they are selling low level cards like the GT3030 which is clearly aimed at HTPC's you would have thought they'd want to address this.

You are right of course but how hard can it be if AMD can do it and still provide much of the same gaming abilities.

[SamuriHL]

This is with madshi's hdr10000nitcolored test pattern:

Pass-through

https://i.postimg.cc/SxwrgJ2m/pass-through.png

madvr 800 nit target, high detail recovery

https://i.postimg.cc/15VMwGXv/madvr_tonemap.png

[huhn]

mclingo you only read the part you want to hear didn't you?

even fixing it doesn't fix it. it's not that complicated. even through the review don't understand it and post stuff like this: https://images.anandtech.com/doci/12572/23.png

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12572/the-intel-hades-canyon-nuc8i7hvk-review-kaby-lakeg-benchmarked/7

with a repeated frame ever 21 mins very accurate...

and it is no secret that nvidia has a far bigger driver development team than amd...

AMD broke deinterancing with crimson and it took them month if not a year to fix it because HTPC are unimportant for all GPU vendor.

and nvidia, AMD and intel will break there stuff again and again and if it only affects HTPC user they mostly will take there time to do anything about it.

polaris can't decode VP9 in hardware not even 8 bit which can be done with nvidia cards since 2015.
so AMD actions they say a lot too....

[mclingo]

steady on fella, lets dial this down.

I actually agreed with you didnt i, sure you arent reading what you want to read?

[mclingo]

I couldnt live with 21 mins though mate, I cant have any issues at all watching a movie or I get taken right out of the immersion, this is one of the main reasons I use AMD cards.

yeah AMD have had their issues no doubt, just cant help feeling if NVIDIA sorted this 23,976 issue it would solve a few things for you guys, unreasonable statement?

[huhn]

You are right of course but how hard can it be if AMD can do it and still provide much of the same gaming abilities.

sorry hard to believe.

[mclingo]

sorry hard to believe.


Which bit, we're specifically discussing 23,976 support which AMD have had for ever.

I'm actually pretty open minded about hardware, I dont have any preferences, green/ red I dont care, if NVIDIA had native 23,976 i've be more inclined to go green and get the extra grunt.

AMD does seem to be more stable with 3D switch though too.

[huhn]

ok let's try again.

the display HZ in madVR is relative to the system clock let's call it wrongly "CPU" clock but the repeated dropped frames come form a GPU and audio clock differences.

in short matching A/V is luck nothing more and can totally change by just replacing the mainboard or soundcard hell even the GPU.

https://images.anandtech.com/doci/12572/23.png

this is a screen of a supposed accurate clock from intel i guess which is known to have the closes clock and guess what it doesn't matter... it is still repeating frames.

did you checked your OSD?

[mclingo]

ah right, not saying AMD have it perfect, they just have it setup in such a way the drops occur outside way outside the length of a movie so you'll never see any. I check my OSD every time I change something on my system or find a problem.

Usually for a movie, when it settles down it reports several hours, but often it can show days between drops, surely AMD cant just be lucky, they must be doing something here that NVIDIA just arent, surely?

[huhn]

they the number of nvidia are worse getting days out of the box is very unlikely.

but do yu want to tell me 21 mins are better? and thats not there fails there are way to many variables.

why do you think there is no general CRU setting that everyone is using with nvidia? you will get a better number on your madVR OSD but if or if you are not dropping repeating frames is a different story.

your clocks are so unstable that it ranges from hours to days?

and AMD is not the lucky one you are the lucky one.

[Klaus1189]

I tested several different Nvidia cards not only the 1080Ti, also got an 1050Ti of a very different date and pcb manufacturer and I always got very bad 23 Hz frame drop/repeat timings- every 4 .. 5 minutes out of the box.
A few years back I used an Sapphire Radeon and got also better 23 Hz out of the box without complicated custom timings which also didn't work or were rejected by the Nvidia driver (some versions).
My current RX 480 has about 11,6 hours (23 Hz) out of the box, which is enough for my needs.
24 Hz no framedrops, 50 Hz not framedrops, 59 Hz 6.8 hours :D
Everything out of the box


But again, if situation of Nvidia is getting better, I might buy one again. But for now - not today and not this week ;)

Since I am still interested in a Nvidia card, which driver version(s) are known to work, so
1.) HDR switching without FSE in madvr (latest version) works
2.) custom timings generated by madvr are not rejected by driver
3.) has to work on Win10 Pro x64 1809
4.) The selected bit depth of Desktop isn't lost after reboot.
5.) Did I miss any other issue?

[iSeries]

This is with madshi's hdr10000nitcolored test pattern:

Pass-through

https://i.postimg.cc/SxwrgJ2m/pass-through.png

madvr 800 nit target, high detail recovery

https://i.postimg.cc/15VMwGXv/madvr_tonemap.png

Hi, just wondering what this is supposed to show? Passthru looks better to me

[SamuriHL]

That's because madshi's not done with the tone mapping yet. :) What it's showing is that at 800 nit target, we have detail recovery on high and you can see that it recovers quite a bit of detail from the image. Saturation is what they're working on now in the new test builds. The likely reason you prefer pass-through in my images is that the saturation has not been boosted. What I'm trying to show is that I definitely am getting madvr's tone mapping vs pass-through. The quality is going to improve with each build until he gets dynamic tone mapping complete.

[videoh]

This is with madshi's hdr10000nitcolored test pattern Is the test pattern source video available in a format usable in Avisynth?

[SamuriHL]

I don't believe so. madshi said it's only 32 bit and his source filter is required for players to be able to render it. I had to grab a 32 bit MPC HC install and added madvr and the source filter to external filters before I could play them.

[videoh]

He could easily make one if he wanted to. Too busy searching for the Holy Grail?

[SamuriHL]

No idea. It took me a while to get it working at all so I don't have any idea what it would take to do what you're asking.

[mclingo]

Just to reiterate I am sincere about keeping this civil, this isn’t meant to be a personal attack, we are having an discussion as far as I am concerned, please don’t read anything else into this, even If I am being critical, I’m trying to have an objective discussion.

Sorry but I cant agree that all AMD users are just lucky mate, that’s just silly. If we cant at least agree on the below there really is no point anyone discussing this ever as these are objective facts.

• Nvidia cards are powerful cards, they are more advanced, clock for clock they probably have 40% more grunt in MADVR than an AMD and games.

• NVIDIA cards are more expensive and so as you can get more for your money with AMD cards which can narrow the gap a little.


• AMD cards have native support for 23,976 playback and NVIDIA card don’t, this means that AMD users can achieve seamless playback at all times as long as they are setup correctly but NVIDIA users will always get at least one frame drop every 20-30 mins in 2D playback and 4-13 minutes in 3D MVC playback.

• There are other issues with NVIDA and AMD cards but these are all defeatable but using the relevant driver, current driver for AMD and pre 4xxx for NVIDIA.

[huhn]

• Nvidia cards are powerful cards, they are more advanced, clock for clock they probably have 40% more grunt in MADVR than an AMD and games.

while NGU runs terrible on polaris. AMD card they are totally great with madVR usually better than nvidia cards.

and games are actually running very similar between a 1060 and a 580. the 580 is only a 15 % bigger chip and has far lower clocks than the 1060. so it is doing pretty good.

vega cards are pretty bad on the other hand. the chip is huge more than double that of a polaris chip for only 50 %gain over a RX 580.
• NVIDIA cards are more expensive and so as you can get more for your money with AMD cards which can narrow the gap a little.
before you talked about 40% more power in madVR and games while this is true NGU but how can you get more for your moneny when a 1060 and rx 580 are priced similar?
a 580 8 GB is at around the same price as a 1060
a 1070 ti is a similar if not cheaper and a better card than a vega 56
a 1080 is a similar if not cheaper and a better card than a vega 64

at the mining crisis nvidia cards where far cheaper than AMD cards atm it "looks" like AMD cards are getting cheaper.
there is a other polaris rebrand rumoured maybe this has something todo with it.
• AMD cards have native support for 23,976 playback and NVIDIA card don’t, this means that AMD users can achieve seamless playback at all times as long as they are setup correctly but NVIDIA users will always get at least one frame drop every 20-30 mins in 2D playback and 4-13 minutes in 3D MVC playback.

i can right now add an amd card into my system and it will not get seamless playback with a simple reasons i have soundcards with decent DAC.i used AMD card in the past for my HTPC and i needed a custom resolution as expected.
the out of the box clocks from AMD and intel are both clocser out of the box if that'S want you want to hear.

so i'm pretty much disagreeing with everything here. and i have price data to back it up and countless multi game reviews.

• There are other issues with NVIDA and AMD cards but these are all defeatable but using the relevant driver, current driver for AMD and pre 4xxx for NVIDIA.

there is so much broken about both and there are some very old ones.
the mismatched chroma on nvidia DXVA processing is just a feature now so old is it.

[mclingo]

while ...

NVIDIA wins hand down on gaming which equates to better performance in MADVR, no argument, and of story.

If putting an AMD card in your system doesnt work for you for technical reasons again, yup, no argument there, that makes sense.

but... AMD users arent telling NVIDIA users their cards are crap at gaming, this is whats happening all the time on the MADVR forum with AMD cards, AMD cards are really good HTPC cards but NVIDIA users are hammering them all the time for their HTPC abilities when they are clearly better in most situations right now and have been for ages.

owning an nvidia card is a bit like having a sports car which breaks down all the time, its sexy, its expensive, it pulls the birds but when you absolutely must get there on time, you're driving the ford focus, I know shit all about cars but you get an analogy :)

if NVIDIA ever sort out 3D and 23,796 they will piss all over AMD cards and ill be first in the queue but right now, when i'm watching a movie I want a steel wheels not spinning rims.

:)

[huhn]

sorry mclingo no. back your objective fact up with something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9lySsrYcw

there is one algorithm polaris doesn't like and that's it.

[famasfilms]

makes new thread to avoid clogging up the main madvr thread

new madvr thread descends into pedantic back and forth arguments

lol

[mclingo]

sorry mclingo no. back your objective fact up with something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9lySsrYcw

there is one algorithm polaris doesn't like and that's it.

I have to say i'm a bit lost here, are you deliberately not reading what i'm writing, if your not willing to a have reasonable discussion about this then lets stop it here.

[Warner306]

This is with madshi's hdr10000nitcolored test pattern:

Pass-through

https://i.postimg.cc/SxwrgJ2m/pass-through.png

madvr 800 nit target, high detail recovery

https://i.postimg.cc/15VMwGXv/madvr_tonemap.png

I don't think there is anything wrong with madVR's tone mapping, but there appears to be some double processing going on here. There is some artifacting on the left side of the pattern and the color is desaturating too fast. There should still be plenty of saturation at 1,000 nits. I would guess this would give you a worse image, not a better image with actual content.

The 2018 LG OLEDs are known to have some of the best tone mapping of any display on the market. You shouldn't need to improve the image much further.

Check out the scores for tone mapping in this TV shootout from Sound & Vision for the best high-end displays in North America: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-a9f-oled-crowned-%E2%80%98king-tv%E2%80%99-2018-shootout

[huhn]

I have to say i'm a bit lost here, are you deliberately not reading what i'm writing, if your not willing to a have reasonable discussion about this then lets stop it here.
• Nvidia cards are powerful cards, they are more advanced, clock for clock they probably have 40% more grunt in MADVR than an AMD and games.
NVIDIA wins hand down on gaming which equates to better performance in MADVR, no argument, and of story.
you state stuff like this.

where does nvidia wins hands down in gaming...
back your facts up!

then you come up with this:
but... AMD users arent telling NVIDIA users their cards are crap at gaming, this is whats happening all the time on the MADVR forum with AMD cards, AMD cards are really good HTPC cards but NVIDIA users are hammering them all the time for their HTPC abilities when they are clearly better in most situations right now and have been for ages.

hardware decoder support has nothing todo with HTPC?
the is not that simple.

[SamuriHL]

I don't think there is anything wrong with madVR's tone mapping, but there appears to be some double processing going on here. There is some artifacting on the left side of the pattern and the color is desaturating too fast. There should still be plenty of saturation at 1,000 nits. I would guess this would give you a worse image, not a better image with actual content.

The 2018 LG OLEDs are known to have some of the best tone mapping of any display on the market. You shouldn't need to improve the image much further.

Check out the scores for tone mapping in this TV shootout from Sound & Vision for the best high-end displays in North America: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-a9f-oled-crowned-%E2%80%98king-tv%E2%80%99-2018-shootoutBelieve me I've no issue with the LG at all. I just like playing lol. Madshi isn't done with his tone mapping yet. Saturation boost is what they're testing now. Those screen shots were taken on 0.9.17 and not the new test build. With the new test build I'm able to bring saturation boost back without sacrificing details. It does sacrifice luminance so there's a balancing act going on. Like I said the LG dynamic tone mapping is very well done and I have no complaints.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Warner306]

HDR -> SDR doesn't look like that on a the same test pattern. It is an issue with HDR video output. I don't think the current test builds will help with this.

[SamuriHL]

Maybe. I really don't know. I've not played with non-HDR tone mapping since he fixed the HDR output option. Maybe I'll play around with it later.

[SamuriHL]

You should check out his latest test build. Holy snikes! I'm seriously impressed.

[iSeries]

^^ output as hdr or sdr? I saw the latest test build posted, but I assumed the improvements were for hdr to sdr conversion

[SamuriHL]

They certainly show a vast improvement in HDR output for me. The only way to know for sure is to test it.

[mclingo]

started noticing another issue with WIN 10 1809, it gettting a bit annoying.

When my deskop resizes back to 4k from 1080p my task bar is double the width and I have drag it down to normal height every time, only does this coming out of 3D movies. Its nothing to do with 3D though as I can replicate this by putting my desktop in 108p mode and switch back to 4k mode using set res, its doesnt do it every time though.

odd.


EDIT - solved that by turning off "lock tool bar", odd that its doing exactly the opposite of what it should be doing :)

[mclingo]

if anyone wants to pickup the OLED crushing conversation here is the place.

Personally I dont mind a slight black crush as I watch a lot of my material in pitch black with no bias lighting, this is subjective, I usually set my black clipping to 19 and above flashing.

my other settings are:

OLED 60
Brightness 52
contrast 85
gamma 2.2

[Betroz]

I will re-post here what I did in the other thread :

I am using MPC-HC, and yes of course I have set MadVr as video renderer :)

With these settings, both black level tests posted here show black crush :

- GPU set to Full RGB and 0-255 in Nvidia settings
- MadVr set to 0-255
- TV set to :

Black level HIGH
Gamma 2.2
Brightness 49
OLED light 50

Now the Windows desktop is brighter since I have the TV set to High in Black Level, and as I said the test pattern is very dark. I can't see all the boxes.

[Betroz]

Small update here : I have increased my TV brightness to 53, and now I pass the THX Optimizer test image for brightness. Image here : https://ibb.co/dfZPLf

Edit : The opening scene in Star Wars the last Jedi when you see the scrolling text over the dark sky with stars, with TV Black level set to Low, the black is perfect black. With Black Level set to High, black is not pitch black anymore. All this confirms my previous testing. So...

[VBB]

You're using the wrong movie to test black level. The Last Jedi doesn't have perfectly black space.

Like others have said, Black Level High is the correct match for GPU 0-255 and madVR 0-255. On my C7, the correct Brightness setting is 51. You can determine this in a dark room with your eyes adjusted. Raise Brightness one by one until you see the faintest glow. Then back it up one. Even with Brightness set correctly, though, you'll still get a bit of black crush on these OLEDs. There are some ways around that. In my case, there was a jump when going from 44 to 45 OLED Light, which allowed me to see all squares in the test pattern. Combined with a 3D LUT, this eliminated all remaining black crush.

[huhn]

don't make it so complicated what do you see on this image?

[Betroz]

You're using the wrong movie to test black level. The Last Jedi doesn't have perfectly black space.

Like others have said, Black Level High is the correct match for GPU 0-255 and madVR 0-255. On my C7, the correct Brightness setting is 51.

Yes I think so too. I didn't just use The last Jedi to test this. I used an episode av The Man In The High Castle aswell. If I have my TV at Low, GPU at 0-255 and MadVr at 0-255, then I loose a lot at shadow detail. To the point where I can't see details on the Nazi uniform when Obergruppenführer John Smith is talking in his office in season 3 episode 2.

So TV at High and the rest at 0-255 full RGB seems to be the best, but I don't know if the test pattern of blocks are showing correctly on my setup. The THX Optimizer test for brightness is much more easy to understand. Here is a discription of how to use that for those who don't know : https://imgur.com/r/hometheater/RjQoJ

[blu3wh0]

Don't bother with the image tests on an LG OLED. The correct way to set brightness for OLEDs in SDR is to use a perfect black scene/image in a room as dark as you can make it, then toggle brightness up until you see a light glow on the black. Make sure you let your eyes adjust to the darkness. You should be able to toggle on between this value and the previous one to turn the glow on/off. The last value that doesn't cause a glow is the correct brightness setting. Don't bother with contrast since 85 is usually already the correct value. My settings for LG OLED B7 SDR in ISF Dark Mode are as follows:

PC Mode 4:4:4 8 bits
OLED: 29 (120 nits)
Contrast: 85
Brightness: 51
Color: 46
Color Range: Extended
Range: Auto (High)
Gamma: BT.1886 (2.4)

As a note for PC Mode, this mode will force 4:4:4 8 bit Rec709 (at least for 7 series) regardless of what you send it, which means if you don't send it 4:4:4 8 bit, it can really screw with your image and cause banding since it doesn't do a proper conversion.

I also calibrated RGB balance and gamma. I don't use a 3D LUT anymore because it is extremely difficult for me to get proper measurements for it since OLEDs are very unstable in subsequent measurements, so the 3D LUT always had some small issues. But even without a 3D LUT, these OLEDs are almost perfect after calibration. In regards to the discussion in the other thread, I can see 17 on my TV in 0-255 range if I look for it in a dark room after my eyes have adjusted. It is very faint, but is clearly not pure black, which means it is a level just above that, as it should be. Checking this in low range after setting madVR to low, gets you almost the exact same results, although if you forced me, I would say the low/low is just a fraction more visible. None of this would matter under actual viewing conditions.

FYI, do not change any of the settings in HDR/Dolby Vision mode. In HDR mode, the only thing you should do if you have a meter is set the RGB balance.

[mclingo]

I still find the black clipping pattern best for me, always been happy with my OLED black performance but there is no fixing the grey compressed mess that is the man in the high castle unless you wait for bluray versions. I watched the first two seasons on amazon with a 200gig virgin connection and I still get horrific compression artefacts, watched the 3rd on bluray, night and day difference. I am told this season is just as bad if not worse.

[mytbyte]

Don't bother with the image tests on an LG OLED...

...FYI, do not change any of the settings in HDR/Dolby Vision mode. In HDR mode, the only thing you should do if you have a meter is set the RGB balance.

R.Masciola's UHD HDR patterns set has separate OLED patterns for each model year as well as other OLED-specific patterns, didn't even bother to understand what's going on - it's a madhouse, a MADHOUSE! (Charlton Heston)

[blu3wh0]

That comment was specifically for configuring the normal settings, specifically brightness. Obviously you need patterns + meter for actual calibration (RGB balance, gamma/luminance, CMS), and unless you know exactly what you are doing, adjusting the 20 point calibration and CMS in HDR can really screw you over even if it looks fine on patterns. I only adjusted the 2-point settings for RGB balance in HDR, which was more than enough to get almost all 20 points in line. If you adjust any on the normal settings for HDR, you are going to be changing the tone mapping, most likely for the worse.

[SamuriHL]

In my setup, I go for 16-235 in madvr, full on gpu, and black low on the C8. This configuration gives me what i need. The reason I don't go for full and black high is because I have everything going through a receiver and don't feel like having to switch the tv every time I change to a different device. Yes, I'm lazy. LOL But the PQ I get is absolutely fantastic with this setup. Does it crush the desktop? Sure, but, I don't care because lately I've only been doing HTPC stuff on it. This works for me. It's not necessarily what I'd recommend for others.

[Betroz]

As a note for PC Mode, this mode will force 4:4:4 8 bit Rec709 (at least for 7 series) regardless of what you send it, which means if you don't send it 4:4:4 8 bit, it can really screw with your image and cause banding since it doesn't do a proper conversion.


I use HDMI mode to my PC, because in PC mode my C8 disables TruMotion completely, and I want/need TruMotion on this TV! I will send it back (50 day open purchase). The reason being bad motion performance.

[mclingo]

My HTPC is my main daily driver so I use it for everything, WEB/TORRENTS/SERVER duties/EMAIL etc, having to swap presets every time I play a video is a non starter for me but i'd defo switch to LOW if I was just using it for HTPC duties.

I also use HDMI / BLURAY model on my TV to also get trumotion, 3 is perfect for me for smoothing out panning shots, this is not really a motion issue though, OLED having such a low altency response time leaves no bluring in panning shots so these can leave jagged edges on brighter elements which would be blurred out on an LCD TV, i've discussed this before.

I have no actual motion issues on my panel beyond that, not even in the apps, I never watch terrestrial TV though so I cant speak for that, is this where you get motion issues, is it judder or something else?

[Betroz]

I have no actual motion issues on my panel beyond that, not even in the apps, I never watch terrestrial TV though so I cant speak for that, is this where you get motion issues, is it judder or something else?

From what I understand it is stutter, and I see it not only in wide panning shots. I guess I'm sensitive to this. Anyways I will swap my C8 out for other TV.

[Warner306]

The OLEDs have an almost perfect response time, so they hold each frame for the correct amount of time instead of blending them together. At 24p, this creates some stutter due to the low frame count.

[SamuriHL]

While that's true, I see no reason to correct it IMO. It's not the display's issue that it's so damn fast. LOL :D Seriously, though, I prefer the OLED response time even if I have to live with the occasional stuttering. It's not been a huge issue in my viewing so far, but, I've only owned this thing a few months.

[mytbyte]

Are you guys sure you don't mean judder?

[famasfilms]

Well that's your choice, but I'm not going to settle for crushed near-black just because I don't want to press a button on the remote ;-) Like I said, I only use it as a HTPC (Kodi DSplayer also), so I never even really see the desktop. Kodi DSplayer is set to 16-235, as is MadVR, GPU to 0-255, TV to 16-235. All levels are correct, no near-black crush.

LGs simply do better when working limited range.

For people that use their PC and LG OLED for more than just video, the solution is to have your PC HDMI input marked on the TV as "PC" and to have MadVR display mode switching on including 1080p24 etc. When you start a video then MadVR will automatically toggle your HDMI input out of PC into "Home Theatre" and your calibrated video settings.

Pretty simple

[Warner306]

Are you guys sure you don't mean judder?

Judder is when the frame rates don't match. Stutter is due to low motion caused by a perfect response time combined with a low frame count. The LG OLEDs will do judder-free 24p at any refresh rate.

Rtings.com measures this (see "Stutter"): https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8

[mclingo]

I'm not sure we are all taking about the same things here, I dont get any judder or stutter even on long pans, mine are perfect.

A really good example of what im talking about is the beginning of Elysium.



The first part as you pan forward over the buildings, a very long pan I see nothing at all, very smooth no problems at all. Then you see the earth and that pans to the left to reveal he space station. With TRUMOTION on the image is very clean as are the lines.

With TRUMOTION off as the earth pans to the left the edges of the earth wobble and are less defined, for me juddering or stuttering is when the whole scene seems to stutter like a frame skip, not a particular element on screen.

I see this pan wobble as I now call it mostly with high contrast areas like a vertical white pole in a shot or window frame as you pan past it. With TRUMOTION on these wobbles as greately reduced without getting the soap opera effect.

This is obviously very subjective but I could not live without this now.

Another good place to see this is panning past a neon sign as I've previously discussed.

[mclingo]

the problem with even using "stutter" is that it doesnt really fit the meaning, it suggests a repeat of something which isnt what is happening, or is it, are the edge wobbles what RTINGS call stutter?

[Asmodian]

I would not define 'stutter' this way and I don't think this should be thought of as a display defect. Adding a fixed random amount of motion blur does not help anyone. Film will have motion blur already and we do not want our displays always adding more, whether it is with post processing or simply from high response times. :p

A CRT and projected film would have this same kind of 'stutter', they both have very low response times too. CRTs have even less motion blur because they also eliminate the blur due to our eyes tracking motion (projected film does to some degree as well, with the shutter closed between frames). If you think something like an OLED studders with 24 fps content you have simply gotten too used to a LCD smearing frames together, the OLED is not doing anything wrong.

[mclingo]

I dont think anyone is saying OLED is doing something wrong but it can look pretty bad sometimes which is why I use TRUMOTION to get around this.

[huhn]

the stutter on rtings is miss leading just ignore it.
while the screen hold the image for 40 ms your eyes will not see it like this because your retina does not reset which make the image blurry and your eyes doesn't see the instant response time.

[nevcairiel]

the stutter on rtings is miss leading just ignore it.

And yet OLEDs are less "fluid" then classic LCDs, so some sort of measurement of that affect certainly has a place in the world.

[huhn]

but compared to what type of displaying.

a LCD with BFI where 40 ms are black or a normal LCD with about 30 ms static image. this changes the response time or how we see the response time. an old CRT should behave the same or even worse/better or how you want to look at it.

rtings considers low response time to be better while using this same number by giving you a lower points on the stutter test. where a LCD screen get'S early a perfect number of points with 10 ms even through they test it at up 120 hz...

not saying there is nothing but you can punish and glorify the same stat.

[mytbyte]

I thought a stutter monicer would apply to 3:2 pulldown (irregular cadence but still a cadence) or 24 fps played to 25Hz refresh with a 2 frame pause every second and judder would apply to a low framerate like 24 fps with regular cadence, very obvious in areas of higher contrast.
Since I don't own a OLED, I can't test which is it but I doubt it's irregular because of something inherent to OLED pixel array.

Response time is just a small part of the story why there is added motion blur, main being retinal persistence while tracking motion. If concentrated enough, one can check his peripheral vision and see there is less motion blur there...or spread all five fingers and "fan" them as fast as possible in front of the face

Sent from my GM 5 Plus d using Tapatalk

[Betroz]

Whether stutter is the right word or not, motion on my LG C8 OLED is not as smooth/fluid as it was on my old Panasonic VT30 plasma TV. With TruMotion OFF it is a mess, not fluid at all to MY EYES. TruMotion ON does really help, but doesn't fix it. I simply believe LGs algorithms for this is not good enough, or the hardware in the TV is not up to the task.

[huhn]

the stutter on rtings is based on how long our eyes see differences when the image change which was in the past just considered bad and a place where plasma was a bit better and CRT totally destroyed LCDs.
so a higher response time results in "smoother" pixel transition compared to an instant pixel transition in an CRT.

an normal driven OLED is in between an CRT and an LCD. it has the motion blur of an LCDE but closer response times to CRT.
if you want to check for retinal persistence leave your finger where they are and use this https://www.testufo.com

[mytbyte]

if you want to check for retinal persistence leave your finger where they are and use this https://www.testufo.com

Yeah, forgot about that site! So when I wave my hand with spread fingers I do get significant motion blur reduction on this monitor.:D Sure, you could use a fan...

also one can observe this, regardless of motion blur: 50 fps is smooth, 25 fps judders, 13 fps strobes (I have my monitor set to 50Hz for my work, applies to 60Hz almost as equally)

[huhn]

this is not consider judder. judder is uneven frame times or the length of frames judder.

25 fps at 50 hz are not supposed to judder but they are clearly not as smooth as 50 fps because what would be the point of 50 hz then?

[mclingo]

exactly, this is why I think this needs a completely new term, its neither judder, stutter or even jitter, the image itself is getting present in a more accurate way due to the faster response time and thus creating a completely different look to panning shots that LCD TV's.

Pan Wobble works for me :)

[mytbyte]

this is not consider judder. judder is uneven frame times or the length of frames judder.

25 fps at 50 hz are not supposed to judder but they are clearly not as smooth as 50 fps because what would be the point of 50 hz then?

So how would one term visual motion perception of the too low framerate but of equal frame duration?

@mclingo: pan wobble if it's OLED, but what if it's something else?

[mclingo]

So how would one term visual motion perception of the too low framerate but of equal frame duration?

@mclingo: pan wobble if it's OLED, but what if it's something else?

motion issues caused by low frame rate would just come under the umbrella of low frame rate I guess.

Low frame rate + low latency response time on OLED is a slightly different issue, its kind of smears the image which is what creates the wobbling effect.

LFRS

low frame rate smearing - OLED

LFRB

low frame rate blurring - LCD

[huhn]

even 16 FPS can be seen as motion by the human eye i don't know the lower limited. the size/range of the image play a rule too.

low response times doesn't make an image blurry or smearing.
if an image is blurry or smearing or what every you want to call it than it usual comes from the fact the FPS is low and the retina isn't reset between images (or the response time is HIGH). this is calculated in motion resolution.
something LCD and OLED are equally bad at if no BFI, backlight stroking or something like this is used.
actually OLED is at an disadvantaged here because there is no backlight to strobe. so it needs BFI and new OLED screen are literally doing BFI with a 50% image 50% BFI by ruinning at 120 HZ and only displaying 60 image and this is not use able for 24 hz sources.
OLED need an completely different attempted to fix this issue no one has done yet.

actually smearing is used for LCD that have high response time and by creating artificiality images in fast motion.

[mclingo]

think of it this way, when you smear butter across bread there is only one layer and its stretched, LCD on the other hand has more than one payer as the frames are blurred together due to one overlapping the other, with OLED there is no overlap and threfore no blur, hence smearing, the smearing is the image being smeared or stretched nto the gap between frames.

[huhn]

but OLED are blurring the image like every other sample hold display. and i'm not going to use a term for bad response time for good response times.

and just to make that clear OLEd have not the response times LG tells the world: https://i.rtings.com/images/reviews/tv/sony/a9f/a9f-response-time-2-large.jpg

[mclingo]

I can only speak for my own I guess which is recorded as 0.3 which is around 10+ times faster than current LCD's but I guess yes, even low latency produces some amount of blur, so i guess it can all still be called blurring.

[mytbyte]

motion issues caused by low frame rate would just come under the umbrella of low frame rate I guess.

Low frame rate + low latency response time on OLED is a slightly different issue, its kind of smears the image which is what creates the wobbling effect.

LFRS

low frame rate smearing - OLED

LFRB

low frame rate blurring - LCD

OK, will try to look for the wobbling effect on OLEDs.

Smearing (different from motion blur)that I have witnessed on LCDs seems to be the result of over-driving the cells.

But, as you may observe blurring/smearing effects on sample and hold displays, that's not the only visual effect that happens with 24/25fps, there is a staccato effect going on even on motion-blur affected technologies as well as analog cinema, CRT or plasma...that's the low framerate staccato on pans, more visible on contrasted parts...so it's not technically un-smooth but it is also non smooth to our perception either. If you just say "low frame rate effect", you're not describing the visual manifestation of it.

[mclingo]

i'll see if I can get a video up at some point to show the relative difference between TRUMOTION on / off for this issue.

[huhn]

smearing can happen with over driving too.

not sure why you want to create a video everyone here knows what motion interpolation does.

[mclingo]

Some people wont even test it and wont accept it can actually improve the picture in some circumstances and for this reason wont even bother testing it, i'm thinking a video may convince some to at least have a go as its night and day better for me.

I dont mind if nobody is convinced, it will just mean I have the video there ready should anyone ask again in the future, i'd been meaning to do this for a while.

[iSeries]

I do like what Trumotion does at very low settings, smooth the image without introducing any obvious SOE. Unfortunately, LG's motion interpolation isn't very good, and even at its lowest settings introduces obvious artifacts. So even though I like the smoother motion, I have to leave Trumotion off as I find the artifacts too distracting.

[mclingo]

I dont notice any artefacts on 3 and below, on 4 I get some in 3D stuff but dont notice any in 2D but on 4 soap opera is starting to creep in so 3 is my sweet spot.

[iSeries]

Even at 2 I see obvious artifacting around fast or erratically moving objects, eg hands

[mclingo]

i'm sat about 8ft from a 65 inch, what about you?

I move into about 6 ft for 3D movies though.

[iSeries]

About 10ft. I'd like to be able to use it lol but even though I might only see occasional artifacting, that's too much for me. The algorithm seems to get tripped up too easily. Even the Vizio I had for a couple of weeks before swapping it out for a C7 had better motion interpolation, and that was half the price of this TV.

So while the panel tech is great (aside from the infamous jail bars rearing their head every now and then during dark scenes), LG has some catching up to do in other areas

[mclingo]

I got really lucky with the jail bars, some peoples were pretty bad, this is my 3rd TV though, first one had a terrible stain covering half the panel which was also common early on before they fixed that with later panels the same year (2015), my second unit had really bad xtalk as the 3D filter wasnt sitting straight. 3rd time lucky.

I must just not be as sensitive to artifacts as you then as I doubt my earlier model will have better processing than yours.

[iSeries]

My quest for a TV began in August. Bought a Vizio M65. Returned it same day, just not a good TV. Bought Vizio P65 - much better. Great picture actually. Unfortunately had an inch wide vertical band on the left side of the screen, visible in all content. Vizio support were admittedly great, and arranged a swap. The replacement was actually worse in this regard and near-black this thing was a mess. Returned for refund. Local BestBuy had two BNIB C7s on at a clearance price. Sprung for one, and although there were no obvious jailbars, there was a very obvious blue tint down the left side of the screen. Gave it a week but no improvement. Returned to BestBuy and swapped for the other one they had (and incidentally in-between me buying and returning they had reduced the price by another $500 so they gave me that back). The new one has no tinting that I can see but does have some jailbars, which admittedly as I rack up the hours (110 hours now) are diminishing. When I first turned it on and watched something though, I nearly choked on my pinot noir, the bars were that bad (first world problems eh). I am at the point now where I've accepted that I am not going to get a perfect TV, no matter how much I spend. So I'm just accepting this for what it is, much to the wife's relief.

Yeah, SOE and artifacts are all very subjective (wife doesn't seem to notice...or care). I could probably even get used to higher levels of Trumotion, but I just can't get used to the artifacts. So I don't use it at all

[huhn]

i'm entering the place where i look for customisable TV mainboard with DP 1.4.

i'm looking for this from time to time for a year now with no real progress. finding a mainboard is not hard hard at all but...

[mclingo]

My quest for a TV began in August.....

this is quite a familiar tale for AV forum dwellers I think, especially since OLEDS came out. My first 5k TV back in 2015 was an LED IPS which was terrible, it was so bad I didnt even keep it for an hour, I turned it on, saw how bad the blacks were in dim light and took it back, you really couldnt tell in the showroom. £650 spent.

My next one was a used Samsung pretty decent VA panel from ebay, it cost me £1000, got it home, xtalk on 3D all over the place. Refund.

Next one Sony D model 2015, this was a fantastic TV but I couldnt get a good one. I had 4 of these, all four had a colour issues at the edges like the were bent backward and degrading at an angle, very odd they were all identically broken. £2400 spent.


At this point I thought, feck it, i'm getting the best TV currently available, and that should be the end of my problems... my problems finally end ed with EF950 OLED number 3, first two had 3D filter misaligned and tinting.

So I went from £650 all the way up to £3500, and this all happened in the space of a month I think it was.

Real world problems indeed :)

[SamuriHL]

Every TV is a compromise. I bought my Panny plasma because at the time it was considered one of the best PQ experiences you could get at home. I've absolutely loved that screen. I moved it to my bedroom when I got the C8. :D The C8 is fantastic but not without its quirks. Given what I paid for it, I've zero complaints as I got a really good deal. Some of the best home viewing experiences I've ever had come from that screen. But no TV is going to be "perfect". Even a theoretical 10000 nit display with perfect color reproduction would have some compromise ($$$$$$$). :) We find the compromises we can live with and tune madvr to compensate to our liking.

[iSeries]

I guess what people are willing to compromise on diminishes as the cost increases. I was just watching a TV show and the camera was perfectly still, while a light bulb in a room got dimmer and then brighter over and over. As the room in the show got dimmer, the bars came into view, and then disappeared as the room got brighter. It was quite funny to watch. Until I remembered I paid 3 grand for this TV. Suddenly it wasn't quite so funny

[mclingo]

yeah, when I got mine and saw those bars, thats pretty much what I thought, 3.5k down and whats this sh++. However it became pretty clear very quickly the overall experience I was getting with this TV far outweighed this issue compared to what I would have got with an equally priced LCD, grey blacks, blooming, dirty screen effect etc.

The main thing for me was the utterly mind blowing passive OLED 3D, I wasnt expecting this to be anywhere near as good as it is, its a much better experience than 3D at the cinema due to better PQ and perfect blacks, its such a shame LG bottled out of 3D just when they'd perfected it.

My next Tv will hopefully be a MICRO LED tv if they can get it down to 65 inches.

[SamuriHL]

I SOOOO wish my C8 had 3D. I kept the Panny plasma for that reason. But man I wish they kept 3D on OLED.

[mclingo]

i'll be keeping mine until it breaks because of 3D, the only thing that might tempt me away is a micro LED TV or if LG ever completely fix the bars at near black, still not really bothered about HDR.

[SamuriHL]

That's why I'm holding onto the Panny plasma. That thing is a freaking beast. One could argue that a 65" tv is overkill for a 12sq/ft bedroom, but, whatever. :D

[mytbyte]

That's why I'm holding onto the Panny plasma. That thing is a freaking beast. One could argue that a 65" tv is overkill for a 12sq/ft bedroom, but, whatever. :D

HDR->SDR looks more convincing on a 300 nit Panny plasma than a 500 nit Panny VA LED here:rolleyes:

[SamuriHL]

Of that I have very little doubt. Unfortunately I don't have a madvr box in that room, only a shield. Once I find a new job (about to be laid off soon) I'll look into building something once I upgrade my main HTPC in the living room. It'd be nice to throw the 1060 in a box for that room.

[mytbyte]

Of that I have very little doubt. Unfortunately I don't have a madvr box in that room, only a shield. Once I find a new job (about to be laid off soon) I'll look into building something once I upgrade my main HTPC in the living room. It'd be nice to throw the 1060 in a box for that room.

And I can tell you that 3D on that Panny UHD LED is really just an afterthough - crosstalk is abysmal and it's half-resolution - the plasma kills it hands down. It's handy though because I use it as a second preview monitor to judge 3D depth/parallax when I work on a project. That was one of the last 40" TVs to feature 3D. Other choice was OLED -too expensive and too large for viewing so close up.

[SamuriHL]

I love the plasma especially for 3d. I've not had any other 3d tv's so I can't compare. My dad has a Samsung LED and it looks good, but, not as good as plasma.

[mclingo]

My first 3D TV was a 40 inch samsung D8000, famntastic VA panel high end TV but just too small, it wasnt passive 3D though so it was very xtalky. I then upgraded to 55 inch Samsung F6570 I think it was, another decent VA panel, 3D was better but still not passive, I liked 3D at that point but I could take it or leave it I guess.

It wasnt until I saw it on my 65 OLED that it really came to life, everything pops and it with it being pretty much xtalk free the image is totally sick. The first Movie I watched on it was AVATOR, not my favourite movie by any means but its the perfect 3D OLED showcase movie, i'd seen it before on the other two TV's but this was a whole new game, it totally blew me away.

This is why there was a backlash when LG dumped it and a petition which got thousands of sigs, OLED passive 3D is way better than anythng HDR can add, a lot of people just dont know how good it really is and argue against 3D based on false assertions about how it looked on their active 3D LCD's

On mine its better than the 3D at the cinema PQ wise by a long way.

[mytbyte]

On mine its better than the 3D at the cinema PQ wise by a long way.

Been to a 3D DCP check lately of a 3D short I worked on lately, first in an old RealD setup and then in a new one with a silver screen and a laser projector. The first was, of course, significantly dimmed and almost no crosstalk, but the latter had immense crosstalk and washed out colors, probably due to elevated brightness. It was pretty much the same brightness with or without glasses :D

As I couldn't judge the color fidelity of commercial features shown there, they had the same crosstalk problem as did my own project.

[nevcairiel]

My favorite cinema has a IMAX 3D projector, while their type of glasses is a tad bit annoying (you cannot tilt your head or it stops working), otherwise the image is perfect. No cross talk, plenty brightness. Never seen any TV come even close to that.
(Nevermind that for me personally the 3D effect really doesn't enhance the movie experience anyway.)

[mclingo]

yeah its subjective opinion but I saw Star Trek Into Darkness in IMAX 3D, cost me a small fortune if memory serves, it still looks loads better on my OLED due to the perfect inky blacks that you just dont get even with the best projectors.

I dont remember having to keep my head particularly straight though, I dont have to at home which is also passive. I can sit comfortably without worrying about it or seeing any XTALK.

I'd love to see 3D come back with MICRO LED, passive or glasses free, they'd have my cash in the bag.

[Warner306]

I can only see it coming back if they can come up with a usable format that doesn't require 3D glasses. It is too hard to train people to watch TV with special glasses.

[mclingo]

I'm under no illusion it will ever come back to me honest, its just a dream of mine.

I think glasses were always a only part of the problem, if the experience is good enough, generally people dont mind wearing them, cinema 3D is still quite popular. Passives weigh nothing and cost pennies, active were heavier, expensive and flickered which was a problem though.

I think the main issue is that it just didnt look very good on sub 55 inch TV's which most people had, the really get the most out of it you need a huge TV. I would also say that most 3D conversions were done fairly poorly too with little or no pop at all and just a bit of depth, spiderman 2 is one of the worst 3D conversions i've seen, utterly pointless.

All of the marvel conversions have been pretty good, Titanic is unbelievably good but there was just too much dross out there.

[SamuriHL]

That's the issue right there. MOST 3D is done as a conversion after the fact. The reason Avatar looked as good as it did was because of how it was shot. I suspect the new Avatar movies coming out over the next few years will kick off renewed interest, but, we'll see. Quite frankly, 8K is probably well suited for a truly spectacular 3D experience.

[kostik]

What size do you set for CPU queue and GPU queue ? If I have quiet good GPU (GTX 1080) and fine (CPU) what settings would you suggest for cpu\gpu queue size?

[Asmodian]

I like lower sizes, something like GPU 6 and CPU 12 works well for me, with 3 frames presented in advance.

Queues are only there as pre-rendered frames in case there is a stall on the system. I never get dropped frames with even smaller queues so there is no reason to use large queues. Also Windows 10 seems a little less odd with presented frames in advance at 3 or below. GPU memory use is lower and startup latency may be a tiny bit better too (possibly placebo).

I have a 2080 Ti and a 7900X at 4.7 GHz.

[mclingo]

ive been having another look at one of my two problems I have with me AMD card, the loss of HDMI when stopping a 3D movie.

this still really baffles me and I still think its something to do with MADVR but I just cant track it down, I have found something new though. When the movie stops it should turn 3D off which it does, it shows 3D IS NOW OFF on the TV, then it should drop back to 2160p60 from 1080p23 and it also does this to as when I lose HDMI I can still VNC on and see my desktop and if I look at my monitor properties it shows its outputting 2160p60.

the new odd thing I found is that if I use set res to change my output to 2160p23 my desktop comes back and I can then change it back to 2160p but if I change it to 1080p60 and the picture comes back, if if then change it straight to 2160p60 I lose HDMI again, its like something is preventing my PC or TV outputting 2160p60.

However... if I then change it to 2160p23 I get the picture again and if I then change it to 2160p60 it changes back again and I get HDMI again.

I think this has to be an an issue with MADVR as when the 3D implementation was written there were no 4K 3D TV's, i'm betting the reason I dont have this problem with MPC or KODI DS is that there is a bug with windows and 1080p /4k 3D switching that MADSHI isnt aware of.

Has anyone else got an AMD card with a 4k 3D TV?

[NoTechi]

I am just using MPC-BE since I started with my htpc/madvr setup and I really like it since it just plays everything including iso and 3Dmvc out of the box and works great. I also talked a friend into using my setup.
In the process to change my setup from full screen exclusive with copy back in lav filter to d3d11 and windowed mode I am running into some problems where I am really stuck now. I was not sure where to post it since it might not be mpc-be related and could be lav or madvr settings. If someone has ideas what to try it would be great since we are kinda stuck atm.

My current problems:
1. I always get subtitles even though in lav filters the subtitles are turned off. I always have to right click once a movie started and turn subtitles off manually in mpc-be.
2. Mpc window is always starting in a tiny window and I have to double click to bring it to full screen even though I enabled in mpc to remember the window size and I left the last movie from windowed full screen.
3. The most critical problem I have at the moment being in windowed mode is that seek/fast forward is always causing the video to hang (looks like a few frames are being repeated over and over) but the sound is being played correctly. I never had problems in full screen exclusive and madvr seek bar.
4. One other strange behavior I am experiencing with my JVC is that it is switching to HDR mode on HDR titels even though I did not changed the settings in madvr in regards to sending bt2020 and output in HDR format. The JVC was not switching to HDR when I used exclusive full screen.
5. Also a very strange behavior is that my jvc is not switching to 3d mode anymore when playing a 3D mvc file. Strange is that I still have 3D working it is just in a different profile like bt2020 and not in 3D. Not sure if there is a difference and why it is not switching to 3D. This problem I had also in full screen exclusive lately and I can't remember when this started.

My friend just has one main problem. Somehow we can't get his iso files linked to mpc-be. We tried everything like the admin file extension function in mpc or even with third party software. Strange is that going into windows 10 apps settings where you can assign apps to file extensions the extensions iso is not even listed there....

If you got any ideas what we could try please let us know it would be really appreciated since we are getting into a stuck/frustrated mode. :(

NoTechi

[mclingo]

I am just using MPC-BE since I started with my htpc/madvr setup and I really like it since it just plays everything including iso and 3Dmvc out of the box and works great. I also talked a friend into using my setup.
In the process to change my setup from full screen exclusive with copy back in lav filter to d3d11 and windowed mode I am running into some problems where I am really stuck now. I was not sure where to post it since it might not be mpc-be related and could be lav or madvr settings. If someone has ideas what to try it would be great since we are kinda stuck atm.

My current problems:
1. I always get subtitles even though in lav filters the subtitles are turned off. I always have to right click once a movie started and turn subtitles off manually in mpc-be.
2. Mpc window is always starting in a tiny window and I have to double click to bring it to full screen even though I enabled in mpc to remember the window size and I left the last movie from windowed full screen.
3. The most critical problem I have at the moment being in windowed mode is that seek/fast forward is always causing the video to hang (looks like a few frames are being repeated over and over) but the sound is being played correctly. I never had problems in full screen exclusive and madvr seek bar.
4. One other strange behavior I am experiencing with my JVC is that it is switching to HDR mode on HDR titels even though I did not changed the settings in madvr in regards to sending bt2020 and output in HDR format. The JVC was not switching to HDR when I used exclusive full screen.
5. Also a very strange behavior is that my jvc is not switching to 3d mode anymore when playing a 3D mvc file. Strange is that I still have 3D working it is just in a different profile like bt2020 and not in 3D. Not sure if there is a difference and why it is not switching to 3D. This problem I had also in full screen exclusive lately and I can't remember when this started.

My friend just has one main problem. Somehow we can't get his iso files linked to mpc-be. We tried everything like the admin file extension function in mpc or even with third party software. Strange is that going into windows 10 apps settings where you can assign apps to file extensions the extensions iso is not even listed there....

If you got any ideas what we could try please let us know it would be really appreciated since we are getting into a stuck/frustrated mode. :(

NoTechi


ive always had issues with MP-BE and MADVR, I just use MPC-BE for previewing movies quickly, I then sit back and play the full movie in KODI DS or sometimes MPC-BE. Try MPC-HC, its easier to setup I find and is a bit more stable.

[NoTechi]

ive always had issues with MP-BE and MADVR, I just use MPC-BE for previewing movies quickly, I then sit back and play the full movie in KODI DS or sometimes MPC-BE. Try MPC-HC, its easier to setup I find and is a bit more stable.

I never considered DS Player since it can't handle 3D mvc and MPC-HC since it can't handle iso out of the box. Did that changed?

NoTechi

[mclingo]

I never use out of the box setup as you are tied to old versions of lAV filters, I always use LAV as external filerts, this is best way. KODI DS uses MADVR so it plays MVC 3D fine, its my main player as it hosts my entire collection, its pretty dawn great. It needs updating though as the downloaded version has old versions of LAV filters onboard but you can update those manually.

MPC-HC just needs external filters configuring, and local filters turned off, not much to do and you only have to do it once.

Main KODI DS thread.

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=223175&page=447

[NoTechi]

Thanks will try :)

[clsid]

MPC-HC v1.8.3 contains the very recent LAV v0.73.
For H.264 MVC you only need Intel MediaSDK (http://files2.codecguide.com/intel_libmfxsw.exe) plugin.
Windows 10 has ability to mount ISOs as a virtual drive. Using AutoPlay should do the rest.

[mclingo]

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgvFafeelEBigP9ZOhxhvo7JcXoXJw


bit of fun, someone posted this on my facebook, thought i'd accidentally turned my 2D-3D converter on my TV on, really cool 3D effect / optical illusion - or is it just my Eyes?

[iSeries]

j82k made a video of the flashing near black issue on 2018 LG OLEDs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl_t3UQ3gAk

[mclingo]

can post you show title, the episode number and the time this clip occurs so I can have a look myself. Is this a stream rip or bluray rip?

sorry missed the other post, got the clips now.

[iSeries]

can post you show title, the episode number and the time this clip occurs so I can have a look myself. Is this a stream rip or bluray rip?

It's a stream from The Handsmaids Tale, episode 8 of season 2, just after the 46 minute mark. The issue seems less pronounced on high bitrate content but I've even been seeing it when playing bluray discs. I haven't really seen it at all in HDR content

[mclingo]

Hi, be interesting to see what they look like on my 2015 OLED, I can see on my monitor at work that there is a lot of low ire noise in those clips though.

I'll report back later when i'm home.

[iSeries]

Hi, be interesting to see what they look like on my 2015 OLED, I can see on my monitor at work that there is a lot of low ire noise in those clips though.

I'll report back later when i'm home.

It was recorded at high ISO which accounts for a lot of the noise. Those artifacts that flash are actually in the source - but it's the TV making them flash - there should be no change to the brightness of those pixels when a paused image is moved around the screen but as you can see in the video, shifting the paused image around the screen causes the TV to flash up all those macroblocks. I've never seen that happen on any other TV

[mclingo]

i'll need to see it on mine before I can comment further but it sounds normal now you've explained it like that, OLED just cant hide really bad source problems, the movie snowpiercer is completely unwatchable without MADVR, there are flashing blocks and all sorts of crap on the screen which does also change when you pause the movie and movie a windowed box about the screen.

Check this disaster of a clip:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgvFafeelEBigP96N4PQZzBs4iPcfg

This covered MADVR and KODI DS which is still the best MADVR based player out there, even though it hasnt been updated in ages. IMHO



I've come to terms with my OLED no handling noise well, I try to avoid poor rips and use MADVR to clean up the image the best I can where I can. These movies look much worse on my 2017 LCD though, not only are they a grey mess but when the lights are out I can still see the macroblocking, its just less pronounced as LCD dynamic range in dark scenes is pants.

[iSeries]

i'll need to see it on mine before I can comment further but it sounds normal now you've explained it like that, OLED just cant hide really bad source problems, the movie snowpiercer is completely unwatchable without MADVR, there are flashing blocks and all sorts of crap on the screen which does also change when you pause the movie and movie a windowed box about the screen.

Check this disaster of a clip:

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AgvFafeelEBigP96N4PQZzBs4iPcfg



I've come to terms with my OLED no handling noise well, I try to avoid poor rips and use MADVR to clean up the image the best I can where I can. These movies look much worse on my 2017 LCD though, not only are they a grey mess but when the lights are out I can still see the macroblocking, its just less pronounced as LCD dynamic range in dark scenes is pants.

I'm just going by what I saw from the two C7s I had, neither of them did this, neither did my old LG plasma, and none of my LCDs or any other TV I've seen has done this either.

It isn't limited to bad sources, it shows in high quality sources too. Vincent Teoh also noticed it when he compared the C8 to the Sony OLED, the Sony did not show this but the LG did. And the fact that if I send the same clip as bt.2020 instead of bt.709 fixes the flashing issue strongly suggests a processing issue

[iSeries]

I actually just tried to report it to LG but jeez their agents haven't got a clue, and would not pass any message on to their technical teams.

I think I'm going to open a service call up and get a technician round to demonstrate the problem, because for a $3,000 TV to be having this kind of issue is not good enough.

[mclingo]

yeah thats your best bet but i'll still have a butchers tonight.

[j82k]

mclingo, I've had a 2016 C6 before. I know what the poor near black gradation looks like. The issue with 2018 LG Oleds is completely different. This is pointless discussing if you don't own a 2018 LG Oled.
Your clip looks fine on my C8. It's scenes where there are specific near-black color changes causing heavy pixel overshoot/flashing on 2018 LG Oleds.
If I hadn't experienced this myself I also wouldn't believe it.

[iSeries]

I'd still be interested to know if mclingo sees anything like what we see on his 2015 oled

What's so funny is the avsforum folk simply brush this off with "it's the content" or "all TVs do this", and then when you present more evidence and ask them to test for themselves, they get all defensive and start acting like you just bullied their child. It's so odd that they cannot accept that the TV has this issue, or even any issue.

I don't expect any traction with LG on this, so I am hoping that madshi could implement the 5bit dithering at near black and ramping up to output bit depth idea, which @j82k was a stellar idea.

this is interesting: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2784185-2017-lg-c7-b7-owners-thread-no-price-talk-87.html#post53332866

[mclingo]

Hi, don’t read anything negative into this, these are just my observations, this is just a conversation remember.

Firstly both those clips play on my system like they are playing in the wrong colour space, I have to drop a few brightness stops to get the surrounding black bars to turn black so something is not right here off the bat, have you lightened these to bring out the noise?
When I turn might brightness down things look loads better, the black bars turn back and all the noise disapears into the shadow, they look ok to me, not great as they have all the usual noise issues with dark scenes but nowhere neat as bad as snowpiercer.
The noise and blocking I see here is the same stuff i've always seen with poorly mastered material where they dark scenes havent been properly mastered, sometimes for effect but sometimes just getting it wrong.
To further back this up, have you seen Solo?, this is a wash with near blacks, beiges and brown gradients with very few truly black scenes, if OLEDs had issues with near black this would like a total mess but it looks great on mine, no chunk noise, no banding, all looks fine to me in and out of MADVR.

Conclusions.
Because these clips are a) in the wrong colour space and b) poorly mastered and compressed to buggery I can see no way at all of working out whether you have a problem with your TV or not.
I’ve seen tons of stuff like this and its always been the source for me. Man in the hight castle season 1 looked very similar, it look horrific, when the bluray came out it was loads better but there were still some problems.
Nearly all period dramas are made like this, they give it a lightened effect to age it, it just ends up looking terrible when its highly compressed.
You may well have an issue but I’m leaning toward you being where I was a few months into my first OLED, I literally spent months going through content and settings and comparing the pic with my LCD, after all that I became absolutely convinced that 99% of the issues I was seeing were a direct result of the poor source and the 1% was the panels inability to hide source issues due to the increased dynamic range in dark scenes compared to LCD.

[j82k]

Just forget about, no disrespect but like I said this is pointless unless you have a 2018 Oled. Everything you're describing I can relate to with the C6 I had before, it's not that...
Also the clips are fine, one of them is straight from blu-ray, the bars are black (measured with a color picker).

[mclingo]

have you played them yourself since you exported them?, they are definitely way too bright, the black bars are light grey on mine. I'll download the episode myself and take look, and show you a comparison.

[j82k]

Yes I have the cut clips in front of me on my monitor, bars are RGB 0 0 0.

[mclingo]

I just downloaded a 2gig rip which wont be anywhere near bluray quality and its night and day better quality that those clips, very few noise issues, everything looks great on my TV. It also has jet black bars and is in 16:10 aspect ratio, yours has grey bars, is in the wrong aspect ratio and looks terrible, what gives?

If these clips have got black bars on your TV, you are either watching with some bias lighting so you cant see them, have the lights on at home and cant see them or you have a crush at low IRE, they are clearly grey.

Incidentally, When was hand maids tale S2 released on Bluray?

:)

[j82k]

What? You're now saying handmaids tale has a 16:10 aspect ratio?
Sorry I'm out, this discussion is a waste of time. Something is seriously wrong with your setup....

[mclingo]

I was wrong about the aspect ratio, I had changed it in MPC-BE to watch an old video and forgot to change it back, I rarely use MPC-BE, I normally use KOD DS.

That doesnt change the fact that the clip is nowhere near bluray quality and has loads more noise problems than my crappy 2 gig clip, and it still has has grey bars. There is no way to tell if your TV has issue if you are using this quality of material to judge it.

You must have compressed this clip when you exported it which has also altered the brightness or dynamic range somehow.

[Asmodian]

I don't see grey bars in the handmaid example but I do see really a lot of blocking in near black detail. It seems like a difficult clip to use to show other shadow artifacts.

[iSeries]

^^ if you have a C8, it's the perfect clip to show the issue. The issue isn't that the TV is introducing new artifacts, the issue is it is making existing artifacts flash very brightly. The more artifacts, the worse the flashing is. First watch jk82's video of the issue, and then while watching that handsmaids tale scene (in a dark room), press pause.

Mclingo, the fact you've said it's the source means you aren't seeing what we are seeing. Thanks for looking though.

Anyone with a 2018 LG oled know if PC mode is for both SDR and HDR is good? I remember seeing that earlier firmwares it had some issues but wasn't sure if they had all been worked out.

[mclingo]

I don't see grey bars in the handmaid example but I do see really a lot of blocking in near black detail. It seems like a difficult clip to use to show other shadow artifacts.

Hi, are you viewing in pitch black with no bias lighting and no crush, hard to understand if not as these bars are clearly grey to me and i'm flashing 18 on the black pattern so I already have a slight crush set on mine.

Also, all other several hundred of my ripped movies have black bars, this one hasnt so you'll forgive me if I think something is awry here.

[SamuriHL]

I've not had a chance to play with this on my C8 yet but I'll try to take a look tonight if I get some time. I think I know exactly the issue you're talking about and it irritates the living hell out of me. I honestly think it's a bug they introduced in one of the recent firmware updates because I don't recall seeing this happen when I first got it earlier this summer.

I use PC mode, btw, and I've not seen any issues that I know of but that's not to say there aren't any.

[iSeries]

Thanks, here's hoping it is a bug!

The only thing I can see about PC mode is Real Cinema is greyed out. I'll have to test if that makes things 'less smooth'.

[SamuriHL]

Yea, the processing is completely turned off in PC mode which is one of the things I personally like about it. I know real cinema is a useful feature but I've not had too many more issues with panning and the like than with it enabled. I suppose that greatly depends on content.

[SamuriHL]

j82k made a video of the flashing near black issue on 2018 LG OLEDs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl_t3UQ3gAk

Yes, I see the stupid issue on my C8, too. That's a real PITA. I seriously hope this can be fixed.

[iSeries]

Yes, I see the stupid issue on my C8, too. That's a real PITA. I seriously hope this can be fixed.

Jk82 brought it up in the owners thread over at avsforum a few months ago. Most owners there dismissed it. The issue was recently resurrected in that thread, with jk82, myself and a couple of others weighing in with their experiences. Again everyone else dismissed it, blaming the content etc. You basically can't discuss technical issues there, you get hounded out by over-defensive owners, they act like you're bullying their child if you bring up any kind of flaw or issue with these sets. I really think it's just shoddy processing because it doesn't seem to be an issue on the Sonys etc.

[SamuriHL]

Jk82 brought it up in the owners thread over at avsforum a few months ago. Most owners there dismissed it. The issue was recently resurrected in that thread, with jk82, myself and a couple of others weighing in with their experiences. Again everyone else dismissed it, blaming the content etc. You basically can't discuss technical issues there, you get hounded out by over-defensive owners, they act like you're bullying their child if you bring up any kind of flaw or issue with these sets. I really think it's just shoddy processing because it doesn't seem to be an issue on the Sonys etc.

Yea, it's definitely an issue. I can see it quite clearly. Has nothing to do with the quality of the content in this case. I've noticed it before watching UHD's but thought it might be related to the HDR tonemapping test builds in madvr. But I noticed it in VUDU the other day and now I can see it quite clearly in this test video. Annoying isn't the word for it. I definitely don't remember seeing that before September and I know they pushed out 2 firmware updates since I bought this thing in June. People can dismiss it all they want but if I had paid 3 grand for this tv (I didn't...not even close) I'd be a tad upset that there's an issue like this. Sony uses the same damn panels as LG, so, it's either a bug in the A9 (I hope not) or in the firmware they've pushed out (wouldn't that be nice as it could be fixed).

[iSeries]

I 100% agree, for a TV this expensive, it isn't acceptable, and we need to be on every forum and tweeting this out to major review sites to get this on LGs radar. Otherwise, i'm not sure they'll ever even know about it let alone fix it.

Play that handsmaids clip again, but send it as bt.2020 instead of bt.709. On mine it plays correctly like that. The other 'fix' is to have madVR dither to 5bits.

[Asmodian]

Hi, are you viewing in pitch black with no bias lighting and no crush, hard to understand if not as these bars are clearly grey to me and i'm flashing 18 on the black pattern so I already have a slight crush set on mine.

Also, all other several hundred of my ripped movies have black bars, this one hasnt so you'll forgive me if I think something is awry here.

Not sure what the difference is for you, but yes, I was in a fully black room without any other lights at all. I also cannot see 17 but I do see 18 flashing.

[iSeries]

^^ try limited>full>black level low, i keep saying it but no one believes me lol. The flashing bar pattern is impossible to set black level on oleds too, the bright text fools your eyes up. The wizziwig square pattern is better.

[Asmodian]

I use my TV as my main display, limited range is not an option. :p

[iSeries]

Yea, it's definitely an issue. I can see it quite clearly. Has nothing to do with the quality of the content in this case. I've noticed it before watching UHD's but thought it might be related to the HDR tonemapping test builds in madvr. But I noticed it in VUDU the other day and now I can see it quite clearly in this test video. Annoying isn't the word for it. I definitely don't remember seeing that before September and I know they pushed out 2 firmware updates since I bought this thing in June. People can dismiss it all they want but if I had paid 3 grand for this tv (I didn't...not even close) I'd be a tad upset that there's an issue like this. Sony uses the same damn panels as LG, so, it's either a bug in the A9 (I hope not) or in the firmware they've pushed out (wouldn't that be nice as it could be fixed).

An owner just posted in the avsforum owners thread about his experiences with LG and getting dud panels. One of the panels had this macroblocking issue and says he had it swapped and the new panel didn't have the issue:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2962154-2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk-293.html#post57183218

[nevcairiel]

This doesn't sound like a panel issue at all (also, that guy should format his post some). Panels don't usually show temporary "macro blocking" like that, thats a processing artifact if anything, not display. Sounds like unrelated issues to me.

[iSeries]

Yeah the big indicator of a processing issue is that sending eg that handsmaids tale clip as bt.2020 instead of bt.709, the flashing macroblocking does not occur.

It just seems ridiculous to have to dither content to 5bit for this supposedly 10bit display in order to (mostly) avoid this issue.

Part of me does think though, that if this was a processing issue, how come it hasn't become a known issue, like the recent hdr dimming issue...These TVs have been out for months now, and the issue is very obvious (and very ugly) when it happens, you'd think forums would be overflowing with complaints.

[JNW]

It’s probably only us AV enthusiasts than even see it or even care enough about to bother to post on forums etc. Average joe probably doesn’t see it, doesn’t bother them enough or if they do see it just think its source related.

I don’t own one but reading about it kind of reminds me of the year of the Panasonic Plasma “purple snakes” defect. What a fiasco. There was firmware updates and board replacements galore. And it was difficult to get Panasonic to admit to the problem and hard to get a refund. All of that year’s model had it so a replacement would get you as far if you were lucky enough that the problem wasn’t as bad because Panasonic would say it’s “within spec”. Kind of sad because these TV’s cost a lot of money.

[iSeries]

You'd think on a website like AVSforum, they'd see this. Some owners there obsess over vertical banding and tint and what not, but no mention is made of this. Every now and again a new owner will post there about it, and will be quickly shut down by the resident 'experts' with the usual "it's the content, you're imagining things" nonsense.

[iSeries]

John Archer replied to my tweet about this issue, I've sent him the link to jk82's video and given him some more details. Anyone affected by this please also tweet him.

Also posted here: https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/comments/a1h8qo/flashing_nearblack_artifacts_and_macroblocks_in/

[iSeries]

Also, Vincent Teoh replied to my tweet asking for specific examples where this occurs. I urge anyone with a 2018 LG oled affected by this issue to tweet John Archer and Vincent Teoh directly. Give them examples of scenes you've seen it in too.

More good news, rtings, replied and said they've received a bunch of reports on the macroblocking and are going to investigate.

[iSeries]

Yea, it's definitely an issue. I can see it quite clearly. Has nothing to do with the quality of the content in this case. I've noticed it before watching UHD's but thought it might be related to the HDR tonemapping test builds in madvr. But I noticed it in VUDU the other day and now I can see it quite clearly in this test video. Annoying isn't the word for it. I definitely don't remember seeing that before September and I know they pushed out 2 firmware updates since I bought this thing in June. People can dismiss it all they want but if I had paid 3 grand for this tv (I didn't...not even close) I'd be a tad upset that there's an issue like this. Sony uses the same damn panels as LG, so, it's either a bug in the A9 (I hope not) or in the firmware they've pushed out (wouldn't that be nice as it could be fixed).

Hey, which UHDs have you noticed this in?

[SamuriHL]

Hey, which UHDs have you noticed this in?

Dark Knight Rises was one of them but I'm not 100% sure it's exactly the same issue. The reason I say that is I send UHDs at bt.2020. Which as you've said doesn't exhibit the problem. The other problem is I was watching the movie when it happened so I don't have the exact frame where I saw it. I want to do more testing but my time this week has been focused on job hunting. I should have some time this weekend to do more.

[chros]

I definitely don't remember seeing that before September and I know they pushed out 2 firmware updates since I bought this thing in June.
It can be a firmware issue as well, if you can find an older one and dare to flash it (if the current firmware allows it) then you can test it.

[iSeries]

Dark Knight Rises was one of them but I'm not 100% sure it's exactly the same issue. The reason I say that is I send UHDs at bt.2020. Which as you've said doesn't exhibit the problem. The other problem is I was watching the movie when it happened so I don't have the exact frame where I saw it. I want to do more testing but my time this week has been focused on job hunting. I should have some time this weekend to do more.

The Revenent UHD is bad on mine, after 1hr16m, when they are sitting around the fire. Very bad at 1hr17m28s, weird flashing macroblocks above the flames, top right of the screen. Pause and all the macroblocks disappear.

[SamuriHL]

It can be a firmware issue as well, if you can find an older one and dare to flash it (if the current firmware allows it) then you can test it.

I flash crazy stuff all the time, but, not taking a chance with a TV even if it was possible. I agree that it's possible to be firmware but I'm not downgrading.

The Revenent UHD is bad on mine, after 1hr16m, when they are sitting around the fire. Very bad at 1hr17m28s, weird flashing macroblocks above the flames, top right of the screen. Pause and all the macroblocks disappear.

Was that with bt.2020 though? Or were you sending it as rec.709? Natively UHD is bt.2020 right?

[mclingo]

ok, so I need to apologize, there was indeed something wrong with my setup, MPC-BE was showing a messed up colour space in d3d full sceen, all bars are now black on your clips.

sorry :)

nothing new to report though, my TV clearly doesnt have the same issue, have you tried manually rolling back the firmware with a USB drive, this used to be possible, i havent tried it for years though with a TV.

[iSeries]

Was that with bt.2020 though? Or were you sending it as rec.709? Natively UHD is bt.2020 right?

Was sent as bt.2020 / hdr passthru/ rgb 8bit. Tv was going crazy during that scene.

Lots of owners responding in avforums, avsforum, and reddit, this looks to be a very widespread issue. This guy even says the B8 is affected, i wasnt sure if it would be with the different processor. https://www.reddit.com/r/OLED/comments/a1h8qo/flashing_nearblack_artifacts_and_macroblocks_in/eatah8u/

[huhn]

i just have to ask why the so called "geeks" on AVSfroum still buy the LG OLED after they messed the processing seriously up over and over again over the last years couple years and don't get the sony, panasonic or what ever other brand that uses the same OLED screen?

i can see how an uninformed user will fall for this but these self decorated videophiles?

is the price difference so big in other country? it's just a couple hundred bugs where i live.

[giulianoprs]

From Italia LG 65 b8 1.900 euro, Panasonic 65 fz800 2.600 euro, Sony 65 af8 2.850 euro.

[iSeries]

i just have to ask why the so called "geeks" on AVSfroum still buy the LG OLED after they messed the processing seriously up over and over again over the last years couple years and don't get the sony, panasonic or what ever other brand that uses the same OLED screen?

i can see how an uninformed user will fall for this but these self decorated videophiles?

is the price difference so big in other country? it's just a couple hundred bugs where i live.

Comes down to price. Here in canada the panasonic is $500 more, and the sony $1000 more. If they were all the same price, i doubt many people would buy the lg.

[kostik]

When watching 1080p movies , is it a good idea to switch to 1080p120 (RGB 12bit) on a 4K display (LG OLED C8)?

[iSeries]

You'd be swapping the high quality scaling of madVR, for the low quality scaling of the C8.

I find my C8 has more colour banding at RGB 12bit, so I use RGB 8bit for everything.

[Asmodian]

I find my C8 has more colour banding at RGB 12bit, so I use RGB 8bit for everything.

This matches my experiance with the C7 as well.

[iSeries]

Sadly, Vincent Teoh says he doesn't see any issue with near-black macroblocking on the 2018 LG oleds. Also sadly, he looked at the wrong material - namely, The Revenant UHD, when this issue rarely if ever happens with HDR content. I've asked him to check with the right kind of material (lower quality SDR), but I don't expect any positive outcome for this

[nevcairiel]

Sadly, Vincent Teoh says he doesn't see any issue with near-black macroblocking on the 2018 LG oleds. Also sadly, he looked at the wrong material - namely, The Revenant UHD, when this issue rarely if ever happens with HDR content. I've asked him to check with the right kind of material (lower quality SDR), but I don't expect any positive outcome for this - you don't bite the hand that feeds after all.

If you claim to be a reviewer and are not actually objective, your name doesn't mean anything anymore. So might as well ignore people like that in the future. :)

Calling out problems is what makes great reviewers. Pointing out positives to butter up the companies, everyone can do.

[iSeries]

If you claim to be a reviewer and are not actually objective, your name doesn't mean anything anymore. So might as well ignore people like that in the future. :)

Calling out problems is what makes great reviewers. Pointing out positives to butter up the companies, everyone can do.

He replied to me and flat-out said "I don't have the other content and I'm not buying it". So there it is lol.

[nevcairiel]

He replied to me and flat-out said "I don't have the other content and I'm not buying it". So there it is lol.

A 20s clip someone else made surely falls under fair-use.

[iSeries]

A 20s clip someone else made surely falls under fair-use.

I think I will do that and upload to google drive, thanks.

[SamuriHL]

Seriously it wouldn't take much for him to see it. And he's one of the better reviewers out there so I would expect him to jump on that. That's frustrating. But if you can send him a clip the definitively shows the issue I think that'd be great.

[iSeries]

Seriously it wouldn't take much for him to see it. And he's one of the better reviewers out there so I would expect him to jump on that. That's frustrating. But if you can send him a clip the definitively shows the issue I think that'd be great.

I suspect he's on the payroll, so I'm not entirely surprised. And no, you really don't have to look very hard to see this issue :-(

On the plus side, I PMd Madshi regarding the idea for a 'targeted' dithering algorithm, which would apply extra dithering to near black, and he said he'd look into it...when he finds the time :-)

[SamuriHL]

That would be helpful if madshi could do that. I have very little faith in LG fixing anything. Hell, we're still waiting for the fix to the dimming issue. As for madshi, he's been busy. I thought he was going to whack out a new release but he went for another hdr test build. The work he's done on that hdr tone mapping is just simply phenomenal. It buries my UB820 at this point.

[iSeries]

That would be helpful if madshi could do that. I have very little faith in LG fixing anything. Hell, we're still waiting for the fix to the dimming issue. As for madshi, he's been busy. I thought he was going to whack out a new release but he went for another hdr test build. The work he's done on that hdr tone mapping is just simply phenomenal. It buries my UB820 at this point.

In his latest video he talks about the macroblocking (non) issue at the end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TthtKfCOzmU&t=13s

There's already a bunch of comments about the macroblocking issue, asking him to check all kinds of specific scenes. We'll see.

[SamuriHL]

Would be nice. I didn't know that they fixed the HDR dimming already so that's good. I just got that firmware pushed to me yesterday so I've not had time to really it out much. Hopefully they continue to be responsive and fix more issues.

[XMonarchY]

Could someone recommend settings for 1440p? The settings I use for 1080p cause massive stuttering at 1440p and my monitor is G-Sync-capable. I don't know if that makes a difference...

Here are the shots of settings I use for 1080p that cause video stuttering at 1440p. AFAIK, for 1080p, these settings are for the best quality:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qPlfDiFwBYnNNRza8KMHdtbNpvyZjHh6/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XG6HcNwdOPD0jlJJ6r3sYDHSZf3l312C/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LaeacleD2M-_7QZHleYtCXeeNJb7saeJ/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-VjhofHXN3tqmZD1vEzu1bzHWFejvKVQ/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1I98I-eKIEPsNMvoKI5DKoaLqv-gOov_y/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13RYfIO78Fdeq_cM_kpWcsVcBaG7YuW20/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17pvnR2KRCycg1ypn8kevMXq9iMoR9tlF/view?usp=sharing

[mclingo]

Hi, hard to know really as your downscaling and you havent given us any idea what you are playing and whether you are matching refresh rates or not, are your rendering times high, if not the problem might be elsewhere.

[XMonarchY]

Hi, hard to know really as your downscaling and you haven't given us any idea what you are playing and whether you are matching refresh rates or not, are your rendering times high, if not the problem might be elsewhere.

I watch 1080p content, high to very high quality. I think I figured it out. I set image and chroma upscaling to Jinc and stutters stopped.

[nsnhd]

I watch 1080p content, high to very high quality. I think I figured it out. I set image and chroma upscaling to Jinc and stutters stopped.

Is your GTX 1080ti not able to upscale 1080p contents to 1440p using NGU ?

[XMonarchY]

Is your GTX 1080ti not able to upscale 1080p contents to 1440p using NGU ?

Looks like it can't, not with the rest of the settings, I guess.

[nsnhd]

Looks like it can't, not with the rest of the settings, I guess.

Then it's odd, maybe something wrong with your settings. I thought 1080ti has no problem upscaling to 4k ?

[Asmodian]

Yes, a 1080Ti should be able to do 1080p -> 1440p with NGU high and SSIM downscaling without breaking a sweat, even NGU AA high chroma upscaling and NGU veryhigh doubling should work.

[nussman]

But XMonarchY is using NGU AA very high for chroma ...
For me it looks like he sets the highest settings for 1080p and then wondering why these settings doesnt work for 1440p.

[XMonarchY]

But XMonarchY is using NGU AA very high for chroma ...
For me it looks like he sets the highest settings for 1080p and then wondering why these settings doesnt work for 1440p.

Yeah, but the posters above you say it should not cause issues even at those settings... BTW, for 720p content, those settings work great - no skips or anything like that. I can even set "Activate Doubling/Quadrupling" to (top-setting) "...always - supersampling" and (bottom-setting) - "...only if any upscaling is needed"

[nussman]

Rendering times with your settings and 1440p?

[mclingo]

Rendering times with your settings and 1440p?


in your MADVR folder create a folder called ShowRenderSteps, then while playing a movie press control+j, down at the bottom you'll see your rendering times, high times means its struggling with your setup.

configure MADVR to keep your times sub 20miliseconds but you can push it up to 30-40, I prefer not to overtax my system as it gets hot and loud.

You could do with doing some reading too, see here.

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188

[Asmodian]

Yeah, but the posters above you say it should not cause issues even at those settings... BTW, for 720p content, those settings work great - no skips or anything like that. I can even set "Activate Doubling/Quadrupling" to (top-setting) "...always - supersampling" and (bottom-setting) - "...only if any upscaling is needed"

No. NGU high for chroma upscaling, NGU veryhigh for chroma upscaling is too much for a 1080Ti doing 1080 -> 1440. And, yes, it is expected those settings work for 720, you don't need to downscale 720 and chroma upscaling is easier on 720. Just use NGU high for chroma upscaling.

Those Activate options you mention do not change the rendering times.

[mclingo]

Hi, just want to come back to the issue I have with my system, one of two only issues i have left unsolved.

When I stop a 3D movie I completly lose HDMI handshake and get a black screen, it doesnt matter which player i use with MADVR, they all do it.

however if I put my desktop in 23hz, 1080p or 2160p beforehand, when the movie stop is correctly drops back to the previous desktop resolution.

I first thought it must be MADVR refresh rate switching but I've now found it also happens with MPC-HC refresh rate switching. The reason I didnt spot this I dont use it often. I thought it didnt do it in KODI DS but it does, what happens is KODI DS doesnt actually drop back to 60hz at all regardless how its set, it always drops back to the refresh rate of the 3d movie, 1080p 23hz, this is why i've never lost HDMI handshake with KODI DS.

So the issue is purely dropping back from 3D to a 2160p 60hz desktop or GUI.

Any other AMD card, 4k 3D Tv owners have the same issue?

[SamuriHL]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/12/24/oled-tvs-hit-by-severe-blocking-and-flashing-problems/#1a516bc86ed7

The issue got attention now. Thank you for getting them to jump on this! Maybe we'll finally see a resolution to this one.

[iSeries]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2018/12/24/oled-tvs-hit-by-severe-blocking-and-flashing-problems/#1a516bc86ed7

The issue got attention now. Thank you for getting them to jump on this! Maybe we'll finally see a resolution to this one.

Great news, right! Vincent Teoh reproduced the issue last week, and confirmed LG has been in contact with him about it. And now this article, which will surely reach a wide audience.

[SamuriHL]

Yea that's fantastic. Let's hope they can get to the bottom of it and it's firmware fixable. That would be stellar.

[mclingo]

good to see that this Chrominance overshoot problem is getting some some traction.

With regard to the general near black issues he touches on, i'm still not totally convinced about his opinion on near black performance in general though as he seems to intimate like others have that LG OLEDS have a “problem” with all near black material, albeit mainly highly compressed material due to low bit depth calculations at near black.

The thing is, i've had my EF950 OLED for three years now and i've never seen any near black issues with well mastered content, i've only ever seen macro blocking when its actually there on the content. What this suggests to me is that LG are choosing not the deploy algorithms to hide these problems, perhaps because they could damage an image which doesn't have any problems, so LG are showing us what the picture actually looks like warts and all and others are adding processing.

[iSeries]

good to see that this Chrominance overshoot problem is getting some some traction.

With regard to the general near black issues he touches on, i'm still not totally convinced about his opinion on near black performance in general though as he seems to intimate like others have that LG OLEDS have a “problem” with all near black material, albeit mainly highly compressed material due to low bit depth calculations at near black.

The thing is, i've had my EF950 OLED for three years now and i've never seen any near black issues with well mastered content, i've only ever seen macro blocking when its actually there on the content. What this suggests to me is that LG are choosing not the deploy algorithms to hide these problems, perhaps because they could damage an image which doesn't have any problems, so LG are showing us what the picture actually looks like warts and all and others are adding processing.

It's pretty well known that LG uses <8bit processing near-black.

The flashing issue is of course something else entirely.

Link to Vincent's video regarding the flashing issue: https://youtu.be/KjObx--Oq8g

[mclingo]

yes i've heard that before about 8 bit at near black but LG has never stated this. Anyway, isnt 8 bit plenty of resolution for near black, before 4k all TVs processed at 8 bit didnt they or are we talking about a different type of processing here?

What I'm suggesting is that LG TVs dont fix any near black macro blocking issues that are on the source as well as other TVs, where others have suggested the LG TV's cause macro blocking at near black, i've never see this happen ever, I've always been able to reproduce the macroblocks on my LCD TV by turning up the gamma / brightness so they pop into view.


is there something i'm misunderstanding here about what is going on with this "processing"

[huhn]

processing in 8 bit is unheard of at least if we talk about none LG devices in a higher price reason. using 8 bit processing will unavoidably result in banding.

it is usually between 10-16 bit for image processing.

i'm pretty sure LG was announcing that they are going to use 10 bit for processing a couple of years ago and that was that.

[mclingo]

if this 8 bit processing was causing problems why dont we see problems on all material, why is it we only see problems on problematic compressed material, if non compressed material looks perfect then how can this 8 bit processing actually be causing any problems.

Just dont get it mate.

[huhn]

because you don't see doesn't mean others don't.

using a UHD BD of the mars space thingy shows significant banding on LG OLED back there. and we are not even talking about black parts here.

why do you think this blocking takes month to be notice?

people don't care they think broadcast looks good.

[mclingo]

because you don't see doesn't mean others don't.

using a UHD BD of the mars space thingy shows significant banding on LG OLED back there. and we are not even talking about black parts here.

why do you think this blocking takes month to be notice?

people don't care they think broadcast looks good.

we're not taking about banding, we're talking about macro blocking near black, arent these two different things?

[huhn]

we are talking about processing and low bit deep processing.

[mclingo]

but it was suggested that 8 bit processing was only happening at near black, are you saying that all processing was done at 8 bit, if that were so they'd be banding all just about everything surely?

[huhn]

as test suggest and as asmodian is confirming there is a banding issue even on newer oleds. it's not like 10 bit process or even 16 bit processing will fix it there is one more thing needed to make sure it's gone.

a nosy image will not show banding even with 8 bit processing.

and that was years ago it is mostly 10 bit now and only 8 bit at low black (where the 10 bit would be most needed) as iseries is suggesting.

[mclingo]

how do macroblocks get created by 8 bit processing/., I dont understand this, if 8 bit can make blurays look totally fine I dont see how they can randomly create macroblocks, it seems more likely to me the problems are already there on the source and some TV's can correct or hide them better than others.

can you give any example of scene in a movie where an LG TV is causing macroblocks that are not actually on the source at all?

[huhn]

not sure why you now return to macro blocks but but yes higher bit deep helps in preventing them when encoding. and h264 and HEVC need to be heavily starved to create real makroblocking and macro blocks don't flash and flashing means it is displayed at the wrong brightness.

if you have macroblocks it has a set brightness while on OLED is is getting extra bright which is a clear sign of broken processing.

and the next thing you should never forget is that a macro block like image part that is intentional will behaviour the same.

and what more do you need to know that it isn't present on a panasonic Oled but on the LG.

[mclingo]

I think we're talking cross purposes here, I was always talking about macroblocking, you brought in banding, I'm not talking about chrominance overshoot either, I'm talking about these awful chunks of macroblocks you get on highly compressed material, the sort of stuff people download from sky or netflix, or badly mastered blurays, poeople have stated that LG Tv cause some of these issues but I disagree.

I completely understand where macroblocking comes from an encoding / decoding point of view but thats not what i'm talking about, we are talking about how LG TVs simply show the picture thats getting pumped into them via a HDMI cable / HTPC / BLURAY, there should be minimal processing if like me you most bells and whistles turned off.

People have suggested that LG TVs have a problem displaying near black material, I just dont see that, pretty much every movie I have has some near black scenes and only a tiny amount show problems, and where I see those problems I also see them too on my 2017 samsung LCD, they are always on the source, i've asked people many times to show me a scene where an LG TV creates macroblocks in a scene, nobody has.

I'm just trying to understand where this claim has come from, I think people are getting mixed up between source and non source issues.

[huhn]

aren't you black clipping?

so LG oled cause flashing macro blocks but you say they show it as it should be because they clearly don't show the image that'S pumped in them.

OLED have banding problems and macroblack flashing that they created by bad processing if you do bad processing like low bit deep no dithering you add massive image problem to the source and degraded near black with low bit deep.

a BD has YCbCr data and a OLED has WRGB as an display so how do you show anything on them without heavy processing and if you do processing you need an high bit deep to lower the error from it.

[nevcairiel]

It has been well established in the past pages that this issue primarily effects 2018 LG OLEDs, according to your signature you have a 2015 OLED. So ....what exactly is your point? You don't see the issue on different hardware? Congratulations :)

[mclingo]

It has been well established in the past pages that this issue primarily effects 2018 LG OLEDs, according to your signature you have a 2015 OLED. So ....what exactly is your point? You don't see the issue on different hardware? Congratulations :)

my point is clearly made, read my todays posts again, i'm not repeating it a third time.

[mclingo]

doesnt matters guys, I was just trying to find out why people think OLEDs cause macroblocking at near black (not banding or the new flashing issue), I dont think they do, it just gets battered around a lot on forums a lot and I cant find any evidence for it.

[nevcairiel]

Your "point" is not really working if even LG is finally taking it seriously now.

Sure, the source has these issues, TVs don't usually generate macroblocks, thats an encoding thing afterall. But the question is about the magnitude of the issues. If you see the same amount of problem on an OLED as on an LCD, as you stated, thats fine, and how it should be. Or say how its displayed on a PC monitor, those don't have any image processing at all, and show the "true" source.
If the OLED shows a vastly exaggerated problem, then thats bad and should be taken seriously. Lucky for you it seems to affect mostly 2018 models, and not yours.

LG 2018 OLEDs don't "cause" macroblocking, but in these cases they may exaggerate macro blocking thats already there, which is still deteriorating the image, beyond its own source problems.

[Asmodian]

People think OLED causes macroblocking because they rise from black too fast. My 2017 LG’s gamma between 0 and 5% is very low, which doesn’t cause macroblocking but does exaggerate it. When doing a 21 point or higher resolution gamma measurement I never get a consistent 2.2 or 2.4 gamma all the way to 0. With such a low black level OLED TVs need to raise very slowly from black to have a pure power gamma but LEDs don’t dim well so between 0 and 10% is hard for the processing to get right. It needs to dither or something to be that dim without being off, similar to plasma but not as extreme.

[iSeries]

LG 2018 OLEDs don't "cause" macroblocking, but in these cases they may exaggerate macro blocking thats already there, which is still deteriorating the image, beyond its own source problems.

Exactly!

[iSeries]

People think OLED causes macroblocking because they rise from black too fast. My 2017 LG’s gamma between 0 and 5% is very low, which doesn’t cause macroblocking but does exaggerate it. When doing a 21 point or higher resolution gamma measurement I never get a consistent 2.2 or 2.4 gamma all the way to 0. With such a low black level OLED TVs need to raise very slowly from black to have a pure power gamma but LEDs don’t dim well so between 0 and 10% is hard for the processing to get right. It needs to dither or something to be that dim without being off, similar to plasma but not as extreme.

Madshi did say he'd consider implementing an algo that applies extra dithering to very near black, which would be absolutely super. He is of course tied up with the holidays and HDR to SDR to not likely to be soon though.

[SamuriHL]

Your "point" is not really working if even LG is finally taking it seriously now.

Sure, the source has these issues, TVs don't usually generate macroblocks, thats an encoding thing afterall. But the question is about the magnitude of the issues. If you see the same amount of problem on an OLED as on an LCD, as you stated, thats fine, and how it should be. Or say how its displayed on a PC monitor, those don't have any image processing at all, and show the "true" source.
If the OLED shows a vastly exaggerated problem, then thats bad and should be taken seriously. Lucky for you it seems to affect mostly 2018 models, and not yours.

LG 2018 OLEDs don't "cause" macroblocking, but in these cases they may exaggerate macro blocking thats already there, which is still deteriorating the image, beyond its own source problems.

This. Exactly this right here. Us C8 (and other 2018 LG) owners most definitely have a problem. And we are VERY happy LG is at least aware of it. Whether it can be fixed or not is debatable because this could be a MFG problem that is worse on some displays than others. Vincent explained it pretty well in his video on the problem. The comparison between 2018 LG vs Panasonic OLED with the black ramp definitely shows the issue with near black. This may or may not be new for 2018 (I don't know, I don't own anything but a C8) but it's definitely an issue for us.

[SamuriHL]

Madshi did say he'd consider implementing an algo that applies extra dithering to very near black, which would be absolutely super. He is of course tied up with the holidays and HDR to SDR to not likely to be soon though.

It looks as though we are pretty near to a new madvr release. So maybe after that he might have time to look into it. The HDR stuff is freaking phenomenal in the latest builds. I REALLY wish I had a 1070 or 1080 at this point though. The new algo is awesome but it's not without a cost.

[nsnhd]

I REALLY wish I had a 1070 or 1080 at this point though. The new algo is awesome but it's not without a cost.
Do you think that for 1080p displays, a gtx 1060 6gb can run the best settings of the new algo (not the max settings maybe) ?

[SamuriHL]

Do you think that for 1080p displays, a gtx 1060 6gb can run the best settings of the new algo (not the max settings maybe) ?

Oh yea, no question. He's added some new trade quality options for the new HDR to SDR algo so you can definitely tune it to work. I was right on the edge of NGU AA medium with all the trade quality options turned off and his new luminance restore algo. I've not tried the latest build as I think he's using a faster version now. It's one of the things that has a new trade quality option so I know I can definitely make it work for UHD 24fps content. 60 is just out of reach for the settings I use. I'll set up a profile to tweak that at some point. Or I'll get a new job and a 2070. Either or. :D But yea, you can definitely make that work for you. I'm on a UHD screen but the downscaling will work for you.

[Warner306]

Do you think that for 1080p displays, a gtx 1060 6gb can run the best settings of the new algo (not the max settings maybe) ?

Check scale chroma seperately, if it saves performance and downscale with SSIM 2D if you need more performance.

[chros]

Check scale chroma seperately, if it saves performance and downscale with SSIM 2D if you need more performance.

Yep, that's what I'm doing on 1080p TV.

[mclingo]

People think OLED causes macroblocking because they rise from black too fast. My 2017 LG’s gamma between 0 and 5% is very low, which doesn’t cause macroblocking but does exaggerate it. When doing a 21 point or higher resolution gamma measurement I never get a consistent 2.2 or 2.4 gamma all the way to 0. With such a low black level OLED TVs need to raise very slowly from black to have a pure power gamma but LEDs don’t dim well so between 0 and 10% is hard for the processing to get right. It needs to dither or something to be that dim without being off, similar to plasma but not as extreme.

Spot on mate, this is the exact reply I was waiting for, this all makes sense to me now, why most of my stuff looks great and why poorly mastered / compressed material looks worse on my OLED tnan my LCD, even taking into consideration the LCD flaws.

Thanks.

[iSeries]

It looks as though we are pretty near to a new madvr release. So maybe after that he might have time to look into it. The HDR stuff is freaking phenomenal in the latest builds. I REALLY wish I had a 1070 or 1080 at this point though. The new algo is awesome but it's not without a cost.

I'm on a 1050ti so definitely not enough, I'll be looking at an upgrade a little later in the year though. I've been following the thread over at avs but not really used any of the test builds for a while.

And hopefully he'll find time, it's amazing how much better extra dithering makes near-black look on an oled. Flashing issue aside, I think all oled owners would benefit from it :-)

[SamuriHL]

I would agree. It would be a really nice addition. As for the card I want a 2070 and an upgrade to my aging 3370k but it has to wait a bit. Hopefully will get a new job in the next couple months then I can go nuts on an upgrade. I can't wait. The new build of madvr is going to be awesome. The improvements made to the tone mapping since the last released are amazing. I personally like the use of the measurements file which gives back a little bit of performance.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[mclingo]

latest amd driver crashes my pc running 3d movies, not done any diags yet, will drop back to my last tested 18.11.1, anyone else?

[redskipper]

I have a question regarding performance hit when upscaling with madVR. Long story short I'm using a laptop GTX 1050 4GB to upscale 720p 24fps content to 1080p. What's bothering me is that I have absolutely no issues running NGU AA-high for luma doubling (no dropped frames, avg. frametime about 27ms). Is this normal? I am compromising by using bicubic 75AR for chroma, but still, it seems like with a bit of tweaking I might even be able to push the GPU to use NGU-very high for luma, as frametime is looking pretty good so far. Am I wrong thinking that something feels fishy? Or is NGU AA simply no that taxing on low end GPUs in general?

I'm kind of a newbie here, so I hope I didn't post this in the wrong place, and if I did I apologize.

[huhn]

i don't see a reason why a 1050 should be able to do ngu AA high easily for 720p.

very high is 3x harder then high.

be aware that the ngu may not be used if you didn't set the 2x settings properly.

[Asmodian]

NGU AA-high for luma doubling (no dropped frames, avg. frametime about 27ms). Is this normal?

I expect that is normal, my 1050 Ti can do 720 -> 1080 luma on NGU high at ~12.5ms and very high at ~25.6ms, while using Bicubic60 for all other scaling. Very high is going to be too much for your 1050 but you have some room for other options.

NGU in general, and NGU high in particular, is a great quality algorithm that runs really well on Pascal and Turing GPUs. :)

[chros]

I found an extremely useful tool for this: Display Changer II (https://12noon.com/?page_id=641)
It supports multimonitors, resolution, refresh rate, bitdepth, etc. It uses Windows API to get and set values.

It's easy to use:
- configure your display(s) the way you want
- create an xml config of it with "-create" switch of the tool, e.g.:
-- dc2.exe -create="TV23Mon60.xml"
- create a shortcut to the desktop with the "-configure" switch for the previously created xml config (you can assign keyboard shortcut to it if you like), e.g.:
-- dc2.exe -configure="TV23Mon60.xml"
- repeat the above steps for another display configuration

No more fiddling around with display control panels.

[XMonarchY]

Is it possible to create 2 profiles for Scaling Algorithms and have madVR auto-switch between based on display? My GPU can handle higher quality scaling settings for my 1080p TV compared to my monitor simply because my monitor is 1440p, not 1080p. I'd like madVR to remember specific Scaling Algorithms setting for each display and apply those specific settings for whichever display whenever that display is used for video media playback. How can I do that?

[Warner306]

Are the displays listed as separate devices in the control panel?

[chros]

I'd like madVR to remember specific Scaling Algorithms setting for each display and apply those specific settings for whichever display whenever that display is used for video media playback. How can I do that?
There's a "display" variable defined that you can use in profile rules (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271417#post1271417).

[clsid]

Better is to use targetWidth.

if (targetWidth > 1920) "1440p profile"
else "1080p profile"

[chros]

Better is to use targetWidth.
Good idea, thanks!

[XMonarchY]

Better is to use targetWidth.

if (targetWidth > 1920) "1440p profile"
else "1080p profile"

Where and how do I use that targetWidth formula? Do I need to name Profiles "1080p" and "1440p" or do they simply have to default/specify those resolutions?

[huhn]

you wanted to use different scaling for different output resolution so this is used scaling in scaling algorithm.

the parts in "" are the profile names that are supposed to be used if the condition is true.

if you call your profiles "PC screen" or "whatever" doesn't matter as long as they exist and are setup to what you want.

[XMonarchY]

That worked, but this doesn't:
if (targetWidth > 1920) "32GK850G"
if (srcWidth <= 1280) and (srcHeight <= 720) "SuperSample"
else "LN40B550"

"32GK850G" is my 1440p display
"LN40B550" is my 1080p display
"SuperSample" profile is almost like "LN40B550", but with SuperSampling, meant for 720p (or below/worse) content

I knew I should've studied SQL harder. It is very similar to this scripting and today it is as necessary to know as Excel, even for Business Administration jobs.

BTW:
- How do I take screenshots with OSD enabled in FullScreen Exclusive mode? I only get a black screen.
- What do I do about 25fps sources? I stopped using ReClock ever since madVR custom resoluiton/refresh rate modes became possible, but descriptions states 25fps content requires ReClock and that's still 32bit...
- Now that Win10 reached version 1809-17763, how does "Hack Direct3D to make 24.00Hz and 60.00Hz work" function? It does not function the same way in pre-FullScreen Optimization builds of Windows 10 (1607-14393 and earlier).
- Now that 10bit is functional in Fullscreen Borderless mode, is there any advantage to Exclusive FullScreen resolution mode? Win10 builds 1709-15063 and newer add FSE overlay and to this date, nobody knows exactly what it does (aside from quicker/snappier entry from windowed/borderless mode into FSE mode).

[nussman]

Doesnt work means ... ?
How to configure profiles is described here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1271417#post1271417

Dont know the syntax very well, but maybe you need to use „else if“?

if ... 1440p
else if ... supersample
else ... 1080p

[SamuriHL]

I'm going to post this question here. It's not REALLY madvr related (although for ME it is LOL) but more an issue I'm having with the C8 and my 1060. If I set the C8 to PC mode, I get the correct aspect ratio on the 1060 and the desktop does not get cut off. If I take the C8 out of PC mode, the desktop gets cut off around the edges and NOTHING I do fixes it. I even tried adjusting it in the NVCP and it breaks a lot of stuff because it technically becomes a "custom res" when you do that. (Which is interesting in and of itself). Anyone with an LG OLED experience anything like this? Thanks for any guidance you can provide. P.S. driver version didn't matter. I went back to the 385 driver and all the way up through the latest and nothing changed.

[kostik]

I'm going to post this question here. It's not REALLY madvr related (although for ME it is LOL) but more an issue I'm having with the C8 and my 1060. If I set the C8 to PC mode, I get the correct aspect ratio on the 1060 and the desktop does not get cut off. If I take the C8 out of PC mode, the desktop gets cut off around the edges and NOTHING I do fixes it. I even tried adjusting it in the NVCP and it breaks a lot of stuff because it technically becomes a "custom res" when you do that. (Which is interesting in and of itself). Anyone with an LG OLED experience anything like this? Thanks for any guidance you can provide. P.S. driver version didn't matter. I went back to the 385 driver and all the way up through the latest and nothing changed.

Its fine on my C8 + gtx 1080. On your C8 go to Aspect Ratio Settings, turn off Just Scan and then turn it back ON (not Auto )

[SamuriHL]

Its fine on my C8 + gtx 1080. On your C8 go to Aspect Ratio Settings, turn off Just Scan and then turn it back ON (not Auto )

Yea I tried that. Pretty much every thing I could think of on the C8 to get it to adjust it and it just goes back to cut off. It's freaking weird as it's the only device on the Pio receiver that does it. TiVo and SHIELD are both fine. Argh.

[kostik]

Yea I tried that. Pretty much every thing I could think of on the C8 to get it to adjust it and it just goes back to cut off. It's freaking weird as it's the only device on the Pio receiver that does it. TiVo and SHIELD are both fine. Argh.

You checked If Deep Color enabled? By how much is the picture cut off? Did u try uninstalling the drivers with DDU?
Really weird,,, maybe try different HDMI input or certified Hdmi 2.0 cable.

[SamuriHL]

You checked If Deep Color enabled? By how much is the picture cut off? Did u try uninstalling the drivers with DDU?
Really weird,,, maybe try different HDMI input or certified Hdmi 2.0 cable.

Deep Color is enabled. Screen is cut off by maybe 1/2" on all sides. Yes, I've uninstalled with DDU and reinstalled. All my cables were bought when I got the TV last summer and are all certified HDMI 2.0. It's the weirdest issue I've ever seen tbh. The fact that it works fine with PC mode enabled is freaking bizarre.

[mclingo]

Deep Color is enabled. Screen is cut off by maybe 1/2" on all sides. Yes, I've uninstalled with DDU and reinstalled. All my cables were bought when I got the TV last summer and are all certified HDMI 2.0. It's the weirdest issue I've ever seen tbh. The fact that it works fine with PC mode enabled is freaking bizarre.

i get this on my gen ef9500 oled but only when my AR is set to 16:9, mine is always set to just scan but i'm always in bluray mode, not in PC mode.

I dont use PC mode though as it disables trumotion which i use a small amount of to clear up panning shots.

did you say this only happens when going through your receiver, its not clear, if you bypass is it ok?

[nevcairiel]

That fully digital TVs still even have underscan/overscan is totally bizzare to me. When would you ever want to use that? All digital sources should want 1:1 pixel mapping.

[huhn]

you are not by any chance using 4096x2160?

overscan is still a default issue with bad brands like grundig at least the last time i checked them.

[SamuriHL]

That fully digital TVs still even have underscan/overscan is totally bizzare to me. When would you ever want to use that? All digital sources should want 1:1 pixel mapping.

THIS! It's freaking ridiculous.

Uh, anyway, I managed to fix it. I don't really know how to be honest as I was messing with every damn option I could find but eventually whatever I did to the TV made it work properly. But I'm with nev....this shouldn't even BE an issue at this point!

[alexnt]

Does any one use madvr with amd?? If so what is the usage of cpu and gpu(in tools like core temp and gpuz, not in task manager). I believe that cpu takes an amount of load from the gpu in decoding and so multiplier never goes under x35. Gpu has an amount of load but not that much as I remember some time ago. Gpu clock is aroung 500mhz and cpu 3500 when playing a movie. I believe this is weird.

I posted iin this thread by mistake. Mods can delete it. I posted the same in the other madvr thread

[Alexkral]

Does anyone know if there is any way to avoid any color space conversion or transfer function for a Rec709 source until it reaches the screen using a PC? Obviously not with Windows, but I was wondering if something like Ubuntu + Vooya would work.

[huhn]

a PC doesn't do a colorspace conversation if it doesn't have to.

if you are talking about stuff like 4:2:0 and RGB not even the HDMI standard can avoid it.

[Alexkral]

I think that HDMI supports Rec709 YCbCr, but at least in Windows the GPU is always expecting srgb, not sure if in Linux it's the same.

[huhn]

you are overthinking this topic.
GPU handles bt 709 BT 2020 totally fine.

sRGB is pretty much BT 709 with a different gamma anyway. so nothing has to be done. it needs to be converted to RGB a step that has to be done anyway.

films are pretty much all YCbCr 4:2:0 HDMI can't send this there is an exception but that not so useful. it needs at least 4:2:2. instead of 4:2:2 upscaling PC prefer RGB that's it.

[janos666]

I played around a little with the madVR settings after a long time (I settled on some adequately-looking setup the last time I changed some hardware [went from a Radeon 290X to a GTX1070] and left it untouched for more than a year) and was surprised to see that DXVA image upscaling (which also bring in DXVA chroma upscaling) alters the colors even when I am looking at a 4:4:4 test video at 100% image zoom (so actual scaling shouldn't even happen at all, although I guess it's normal if the image is still passed to the scaler and it still processes it and thus any potential errors are added regardless). I didn't think it's still an issue after so many years. Is this normal or a bug in certain driver versions? I currently have 418.91 installed on Win10 x64 1809.

[Alexkral]

Well, what I really wanted to know is if because of that slight gamma difference the software made some adjustment between the decoded linear Rec709 and the linear srgb before encoding it, but from your answer and from what I'm reading it does not seem that way. But that should mean an additional difference to the system gamma, which is already supposed to be different?

[huhn]

because sRGB may be a PC spec that doesn't mean it is used by consumer.

the GPU driver take it as it is. so madVR output bt 709 and this image is send as is to the display without changing the gamma.

to get sRGB to work you need program that use sRGB AND a screen calibrated to sRGB.

[Alexkral]

Thanks, I think I understand now how it works.

[maxkill]

Hey everyone. So I have a strange problem. Using win10 and after some update lagg seem to have started. If I remove the MadVR gpu 3d on 4k material idles around 45% at all times (seen in taskmanager). But as soon as installing MadVR even with default settings it idles at 100% causing lagg.

Also I'm not sure when choosing ' install.bat '(latest version incl 64bit) if it actually installs the 64bit or the 32bit since both are in the installation folder, I'm not given a choice to install either 32 or 64, so maybe it just installs the 32bit?

Anyway, both mpc hc and mpc be 64bit players show the exact same anomaly described, with MadVR idles at 100% gpu.
edit: computer is high end i7 and rtx2070 16gbram.

Any solutions?

[huhn]

what does it say under GPU engine? legacy overlay by any chance?

[maxkill]

I solved it by deleting mashi in regedit and running restore to default in madvr folder then I could run madvr on low performance hit again, can now pretty much max out everything looks insane on 4k man.

[SamuriHL]

I solved it by deleting mashi in regedit

WHAT????? Now who's going to release awesome video rendering software???!?!?! :D LMAO

[maxkill]

WHAT????? Now who's going to release awesome video rendering software???!?!?! :D LMAO
It seemed to be the top DXVA option I had unchecked in 'Trade quality for performance' tab. As soon as checking this performance went from 100 to 60-65%. Evrything else unchecked.

[Asmodian]

Don't use NGU very high for chroma upscaling then. Maybe medium would work, since it seems like you don't have the performance to be able to use NGU very high.

[maxkill]

Don't use NGU very high for chroma upscaling then. Maybe medium would work, since it seems like you don't have the performance to be able to use NGU very high.
I have 2070 rtx. Not sure if it's enough then. Medium with no DXVA looks better?

[Asmodian]

I have 2070 rtx. Not sure if it's enough then. Medium with no DXVA looks better?

NGU medium is much better than DXVA if you can run it it, at least in my opinion. Very high is a lot harder than high for arguably the same quality. You might be able to use high as well, very high is simply too much for chroma. Even being able to tell the difference in a sill image flip test is tricky. Some argue that very high is actually worse for chroma and should only be used on luma. I always use NGU high for chroma upscaling, even for 640x480 -> 4K, with an overclocked and water cooled 2080 Ti. :)

I think NGU low can be a little odd sometimes but NGU AA medium or higher is very good for chroma upscaling. Even something very fast like 3 tap spline with AR is a good option for chroma upscaling, compared to DXVA, and Jinc is excellent.

[SamuriHL]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnarcher/2019/03/09/lg-fixes-oled-tv-flashing-and-blocking-problems/

Thank God!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[maxkill]

NGU medium is much better than DXVA if you can run it it, at least in my opinion. Very high is a lot harder than high for arguably the same quality. You might be able to use high as well, very high is simply too much for chroma. Even being able to tell the difference in a sill image flip test is tricky. Some argue that very high is actually worse for chroma and should only be used on luma. I always use NGU high for chroma upscaling, even for 640x480 -> 4K, with an overclocked and water cooled 2080 Ti. :)

I think NGU low can be a little odd sometimes but NGU AA medium or higher is very good for chroma upscaling. Even something very fast like 3 tap spline with AR is a good option for chroma upscaling, compared to DXVA, and Jinc is excellent.
So I tried the medium with no dxva, this setting was the highest with all the other settings I could run with load 90%, and could with 8bpc color depth honestly not tell a difference. Might be easier with full rgb probably.
So I'll just stick with very high, might as well as it's less stress on gpu idling around 60%.

[Asmodian]

You should not set it to NGU very high. Feel free to use DXVA if it looks good to you but I want to make sure you understand what is happening.

With that trade quality for performance option enabled (use DXVA chroma upscaling when doing native DXVA decoding) your chroma upscaling setting does not matter. This is why you can set NGU very high, it is not being used. DXVA chroma upscaling is used whenever native DXVA decoding is. If something does not use DXVA in LAV madVR would then use your settings, which will not work (NGU very high is way too slow).

I suggest disabling that DXVA trade quality for performance option and setting chroma upscaling to Jinc, that is a great quality option without taking a lot more power. You will probably have some content or scenes where you would notice the improvement compared to DXVA upscaling (check fine bright red details). :)

[maxkill]

You should not set it to NGU very high. Feel free to use DXVA if it looks good to you but I want to make sure you understand what is happening.

With that trade quality for performance option enabled (use DXVA chroma upscaling when doing native DXVA decoding) your chroma upscaling setting does not matter. This is why you can set NGU very high, it is not being used. DXVA chroma upscaling is used whenever native DXVA decoding is. If something does not use DXVA in LAV madVR would then use your settings, which will not work (NGU very high is way too slow).

I suggest disabling that DXVA trade quality for performance option and setting chroma upscaling to Jinc, that is a great quality option without taking a lot more power. You will probably have some content or scenes where you would notice the improvement compared to DXVA upscaling (check fine bright red details). :)
Interestingly for my settings your advice made my image worse. At first I thought you might be correct, but then I noticed this
WITH dxva
https://imgur.com/WMmfHK0
wthout dxva using both jinc as you suggested and ngu medium
gave same result
https://imgur.com/qwlL6Wc

Side by side, dxva to left:
https://imgur.com/QYag7jC

As one clearly can see you get some strange discoloration in the white floor without dxva. Interestingly if I took screenshot from player it wouldn't show, I had to prnt screen it. So for some reason this is the case for my setup, not sure if true for others but for me dxva seems to give better results.

[Asmodian]

Very interesting, that is certainly odd. Does it still show that when using DXVA2 copyback or D3D11? It is strange that a screenshot does not capture it but you see it on your display, that makes it seem like it is being caused by the GPU or the display. Maybe the sharper chroma is causing a moiré pattern or something? Great test scene. :)

Maybe set chroma upscaling to DXVA so you don't accidentally use something else when not using DXVA decoding.

Edit: Are you running a 3DLUT?

[huhn]

maybe give the screenshoot function a good read. ignoring settings is pretty much the default setting.

and DXVA is well known to mess up colors.

[maxkill]

maybe give the screenshoot function a good read. ignoring settings is pretty much the default setting.

and DXVA is well known to mess up colors.
good read? ignoring settings?

If you actually look at the evidence it seems to be the contrary in this case.

[Asmodian]

DXVA is the one not messing up, and chroma upscaling must happen when taking a screenshot.

[huhn]

ok go to rendering screenshoots and have a read.

i'm not going to waste my time on jpg and i'm not going to argue the countless possibilities for messed up colors.

[maxkill]

Very interesting, that is certainly odd. Does it still show that when using DXVA2 copyback or D3D11? It is strange that a screenshot does not capture it but you see it on your display, that makes it seem like it is being caused by the GPU or the display. Maybe the sharper chroma is causing a moiré pattern or something? Great test scene. :)

Maybe set chroma upscaling to DXVA so you don't accidentally use something else when not using DXVA decoding.

Edit: Are you running a 3DLUT?
Using the 3dlut in my guide for smoother 4k image.
Not sure what you mean, how do I check this about dxva2 and d3d11 for chroma upscaling? I only changed chroma upscaling and trade quality for performance tabs. I did check and uncheck the top DXVA option in trade quality for performance tab for this as can be seen in the guide.
Yeah maybe, I have no clue why it's doing that when not dxva. =)

[maxkill]

ok go to rendering screenshoots and have a read.

i'm not going to waste my time on jpg and i'm not going to argue the countless possibilities for messed up colors.
Must have been a bug about not being able to save the screenshot from player, now could save the non dxva effect. Here is the non dxva NGU medium filter setting png image distortion
https://imgur.com/wysqNeE

[Asmodian]

Does it happen without the 3DLUT? I have seen similar artifacts from 3DLUTs before.

In the LAV Video settings look at the hardware decoding options to change between native and copyback.

[huhn]

Must have been a bug about not being able to save the screenshot from player, now could save the non dxva effect. Here is the non dxva NGU medium filter setting png image distortion
https://imgur.com/wysqNeE

not sure how this isn't reaching you but default madVR is ignoring your setting for screenshoot and uses NGU sharp with grain and is ignoring calibration settings unlike capture screen.

if you just would go to rendering->screenshoots and read it you would know that. now it's a bug?

if you wanna prof some color issues use default setting madVR get an ground truth RGB image and scale this image and same the image as PNG with control/alt print not the screenshoot function and upload it to a page that doesn't mess up images.

[maxkill]

Does it happen without the 3DLUT? I have seen similar artifacts from 3DLUTs before.

In the LAV Video settings look at the hardware decoding options to change between native and copyback.
No difference when disabling 3dlut!

I don't have LAV Video? I can only see LAV Audio which I'm using.

[maxkill]

not sure how this isn't reaching you but default madVR is ignoring your setting for screenshoot and uses NGU sharp with grain and is ignoring calibration settings unlike capture screen.

if you just would go to rendering->screenshoots and read it you would know that. now it's a bug?

if you wanna prof some color issues use default setting madVR get an ground truth RGB image and scale this image and same the image as PNG with control/alt print not the screenshoot function and upload it to a page that doesn't mess up images.
Oh I get what you mean, the settings for screenshots in the madvr filter, certainly that is true. I'm have been saving images from the player with these madvr screenshot default settings then using File-Save image. Apart from the prnt screen ones.

Good idea, you want me to prnt screen the movie while holding Ctrl which give you a png instead of jpg, got it!

What site do you prefer?

[huhn]

i don't care about the image host as long as it works lossless with PNG and well is... SFW without an add block obviously

[takenori]

if i want to restore madvr default setting but i want to keep the scaling profile, what files do i need to keep/restore in madvr folder?

[Asmodian]

That is not possible, all the settings live in one file so you will lose the scaling profile if you reset settings.

[SamuriHL]

A small general observation that's probably not useful, but, I upgraded my HTPC to Windows 10 1903 (release candidate potentially RTM build) and in my VERY limited testing, it didn't seem to break anything madvr related. So, that's good I guess. LOL

[mclingo]

ive had not a single problem for ages now, amd drivers are very stable at the moment, dont think ill go 1903 right now though, very brave...

[SamuriHL]

I knew I could roll back if i had issues so I figured I'd check it out. Hasn't seem to change anything HTPC wise.

[mclingo]

i'd been running on a very stable system for a while now with no problems at all with workaround in place for the two remaining AMD card issues, oversat red and HDMI loss dropping back 60hz from 3D, i've not had a single problem for ages, nothing, nada, zero.

So why did I try and update LAV/MADVR/AMD drivers this weekend gone, why?, because i'm a moron.

Thinking i'm missing out on something as I always do but usually manage to talk myself out of updating, this time I went ahead. I just did MADVR first, SDR check 23,976, check, HDR, check, 3D total mess, hdmi loss all over the place and it would often start the movie in top right hand side of screen in 1080p res on my 4k TV, i got a sort of fix by turning FSE off but i'd still get HDMI loss even when I stopped the movie in KODI DS, I can workaround this but just thought it better to go back to stable if i couldnt fix it properly.

So I decided to try and fix it, I updated LAV and reinstalled KODI DS, still broken, no change at all. I updated AMD drive and bang, PC crashed and wont boot, totally corrupted windows, system restore wouldnt work, nothing worked, couldnt even get recovery to open, totally fecked so I was totally scuppered.

Luckily i'd taken a macrion image a few weeks prior and I was back up and running in a 30 mins.

Lessons learn yet again, dont update unless you have to and MADVR 0.92.17 dont play nice with 3D on my AMD card system so i'll be avoiding this release, anyone else had problems with 3D with AMD?


My current stable system is lav 0.72.0, madvr v0.92.14 - AMD - 19.2.2

[mclingo]

macrium free is a life saver !

[Klaus1189]

I would like to help, but I don't have any 3D capable TV here anymore, it was banned from tvs some time ago.

[mclingo]

i'd be gutted if I had to give up my 3D tv, i have a 2015 3d OLED, there was another model in 2016 but it was phased out on the 2017 models, hoping we'll see a return at some point glasses free, perhaps when everyones got board of HDR and 8K

Main thing is its all working now, i'm not going to bother updating again until I have to or there is a big update to MADVR or LAV filters.

[chros]

i'm not going to bother updating again until I have to
I feel your pain, just always remember 1 of the golden rules of IT: If it's not broken, don't fix it :)

Something else: can we continue this discussion (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2954506-improving-madvr-hdr-sdr-mapping-projector-194.html#post57894266) here?
@Manni said that it's documented here somewhere, do you have a link?

How would you double check an SDR DCI-P3 3dlut (created by DisplayCal) - for hdr2sdr pixelshader - using HCFR?
Just check the hdr checkbox under madVR setting in HCFR? Which option do you have to choose with the HDR button on madtest window?

Thanks

[NoTechi]

@mclingo I am with you since I like to play with all kind of betas and new stuff as well taking the risk to break things. And I never have backups :D
However reading your AMD experience with new drivers it sounds it would not be really different as with nvidia in regards to stability/bugs. I was really considering AMDs new gpus since Nvidia stopped supporting 3D.
Seems i am stuck now :(

NoTechi

[mclingo]

@mclingo I am with you since I like to play with all kind of betas and new stuff as well taking the risk to break things. And I never have backups :D
However reading your AMD experience with new drivers it sounds it would not be really different as with nvidia in regards to stability/bugs. I was really considering AMDs new gpus since Nvidia stopped supporting 3D.
Seems i am stuck now :(

NoTechi

yeah there are some issues but i'm sure my recent issues are down to my complex system and others wouldnt have the same problem, but given the choice I would still always recommend an AMD card for a straight HTPC user, you only want to go green if your a gamer, but then again AMD are very close in that arena too. With NVIDIA dropping 3D now as well I see no reason at all to buy an NVIDIA card if you are not gaming.

Here's why I would always go red for HTPC users.

Advantages:

1. 23,976 playback supported which means no messing with custom resolutions, MADVR can sometimes shows frame drops in days rather that seconds or minutes.

2. 3D support, now nvidia no longer has 3D this is obviously a win but 3D on NVIDIA cards has always been buggy, i've never had it working as reliable on my 1060/1050 than i've had on every single of the 20+ AMD cards i've owned.

3. They quite a bit cheaper.


4. They support 8/10/12 bit with no issues i am aware of.

5. There drivers are very stable, AMD very rarely break something, I can only remember one driver which broke HDR and I'm not even sure it wasnt just an issue with my system, this was ages ago, AMD have been very consistent here.

6. Black screen coming out of 3D playback form 1080p to 4k60hz, i'm convinced this is a MADVR issue though.


Disadvantages:

1. Less powerful generally than NVIDIA cards. less processing power in MADVR.

2. There is a colour saturation problem that it doesnt look like AMD understand and so arent fixing. This only affects 2D SDR movies SUB 60hz oin HDR TVs, this can easily be fixed by calibrating your TV for BT2020 in MADVR.


guys though, this isnt meant to be a red vs green rant, these are objective differences.

[chros]

this isnt meant to be a red vs green rant, these are objective differences.
+1
Disadvantages:

3. more power consumption -> heat -> noise

[nevcairiel]

Also don't forget that AMD has the worst video decoder and encoder out of the 3 vendors. And I really wouldn't call them significantly cheaper. NVIDIA has a similar price/performance lineup, not always giving you a 1:1 match, but often something slightly slower for slightly cheaper, or slightly faster for more.

[DMU]

Disadvantages:

1. Less powerful generally than NVIDIA cards. less processing power in MADVR.

2. There is a colour saturation problem that it doesnt look like AMD understand and so arent fixing. This only affects 2D SDR movies SUB 60hz oin HDR TVs, this can easily be fixed by calibrating your TV for BT2020 in MADVR.

For Vega's here (http://bugs.madshi.net/view.php?id=596)

[x7007]

This is what I got from Cyberlink about no 3D now ..

Thank you for contacting CyberLink Technical Support.

We understand that you want to know how to watch 3D movies with PowerDVD 17. We are more than willing to assist you.

With reference to your query, please be advised that the GPU manufacturer NVIDIA has removed the 3D playback feature (NVIDIA 3D Vision) from their GPU products, effective on the new driver version 430.39.

It will revoke the 3D video/image playback function and compatibility completely on the GPU hardware, and disable CyberLink PowerDVD for playing 3D videos/images with 3D effects accordingly.

The software player (PowerDVD) cannot reversely operate the 3D video playback function via the GPU hardware because the 3D playback function has been removed directly on hardware/hardware driver level.

To continue using the 3D playback feature on user's NVIDIA GPU platform, please reinstall the GPU driver to previous version 425.31 or earlier versions from NVIDIA driver page.

Please feel free to contact us back for further clarification or assistance related to CyberLink Products. Use the link below to get back to us.

https://membership.cyberlink.com/support/service/technical-support.do

Thanks and Regards,

Arvin
CyberLink Technical Support

[huhn]

570/580 is currently not beatable by nvidia not even close well at least for gaming.
the missing API and features on AMD cards are not even funny anymore... playing a UHD 60 HZ video from youtube you better have a beefy CPU if you have an AMD card.

processing power is more complicated. AMD is usually generally faster in raw performance(and was pretty much always better in madVR until polaris come around) if we take die size and price as a comparison and ignore NGU, needi3 and obviously vega 7...
if you take performance/watt AMD just fails across the board.

[nevcairiel]

570/580 is currently not beatable by nvidia not even close well at least for gaming.

Not sure about the 570, but the 1660 should be close to a 580, both in price and performance.

[huhn]

they literally throwing RX 580 at people: https://geizhals.de/?cat=gra16_512&xf=9809_14+5792+-+RX+580+(XTX)

and the 1660 is faster

[mclingo]

you can get a used RX 580 4gb on ebay for £99, which is the nearest nvidia card to the 580 and how much is that?.


EDIT - 1060 3gb are also going for same price now...

[huhn]

ignore the used market way to hit or miss or let me say it this way i would not buy an outdated card with missing features that may have problems.
the used market is very different depends on locations while the new market should be similar.

[mclingo]

ive almost always bought used, just a massive waste of money buying new, never had any issues, ever. By missing features I guess you're talking about full hardware VP9 decoding?, never been a dealbreaker for me, I dont consume anything I care about the quality of on youtube, what is there in 4k thats really worth watching in 4k, reviews and demos?

[huhn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFHHGETsxkE

[mclingo]

...not saying content does exist on youtube, just that most people consume high quality media elsewhere and that i doubt vp1 decoding is near the top of many peoples cards requirements list.

[huhn]

VP9 is a default feature on all GPU except amd and the only way to get high resolution YT videos. netflix plans on using VP9 too.

there are other features missing. an working API to flag the stream as BT2020 at the player choice, d3d9 overlay is simply missing and the HDR api doesn't work with 8 bit these are just some of the thing i can spontaneously bring up.

[mclingo]

most will be going av1, vp9 will be obsolete. Cant see a reason for 8bit hdr either, all hdr movies are 10 bit anyway.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13365/youtube-publishes-first-videos-transcoded-using-av1

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/netflix-and-netflix-to-deploy-av1-codec-for-content-streaming.html

[huhn]

and HEVC will be obsolete too one day... what the reasoning behind that.

they are 10 bit YCbCr not RGB and i'm not going to tell you why that matter.
and well know Tv produce banding when feed with 10 bit and i really really want to see you sending 10 bit RGB at 60 HZ.

[mclingo]

no banding here, never been able to reproduce those issues people have reported.

[Asmodian]

It is pretty obvious you are an AMD fan, you do not mind their issues and limitations while Nvidia's bother you a lot, and you assume everyone else should feel the same way. That is fine but don't expect everyone else to judge the differences as completely in favor of AMD as you do. What limitations matter to you change with your use case(s).

No HDR at 8 bit is huge for me, 8 bit HDR works great on my TV (even better than 10 bit, 2017 LG OLED :mad:) and I can watch 60 Hz HDR content. I do have HDR games as well, 60Hz HDR is really important for those. When Nvidia broke 8 bit HDR it was not good, this newest driver (430.39) has a lot of fixes which are really appreciated. AMD really needs to allow 8 bit HDR as well.

I have been doing custom installs of Nvidia's drivers to avoid installing the 3D support for a long time, so removing that is a minor improvement in my mind; not a negative. For me, right now, the limitations that come with an Nvidia GPU are much better than the ones that come with an AMD GPU.

[nevcairiel]

I agree with Asmodian, I was never a fan of 3D at home either (or even at the cinema for that matter, it just doesn't improve the experience for me, and the glasses bug me), so the improvements in the recent drivers are definitely a net gain.

[mclingo]

3D wasnt that important to me initially as I had to use active glasses to get full frame 3d and they were cumbersome and where the flicker was barely noticeable it was there, I put up with it as for me it did add something for me even though I was only using a 55 inch TV at the time.

This changed completely when I moved up to a 65inch OLED with passive 3D, this was night a day difference, you barely notice the glasses are there as they weigh nothing at all and 3D depth coupled with pure black and the dynamics of OLED makes a truely incredible experience, better than cinema picture-wise.

If you havent exeprienced this first hand with a well made 3D blockbuster its hard to describe, to the point where I think people who say they still dont think OLED 3D is any good, havent actually experienced it properly. This is why there was a massive petition to LG about keeping 3D, it was one of the OLEDs best features.

i'm no AMD fan boy by the way, I always buy what I need from whoever is doing it best at the time, if NVIDIA hard sorted out their 3D years ago i might not have ever tried AMD cards, I had been using NVIDIA cards since the first Geforce 256 cards decades ago.

You are right though, we are all more sensitive to those features we require and less so to those we're not, this should be obvious though, I still think though for the average HTPC user who doesn't game an AMD is better card generally but I get thats still going to be subjective even though there are a number of objective differences.

[Asmodian]

The focal plane not matching the depth makes this fake 3D never really work for me. It is a problem for VR as well. We really need good light fields for 3D. :(

[mclingo]

hmm, seems a bit nit picky to me, its more about the wow factor than accuracy, the wow factor watching something like avator in 3D on a big OLED is palatable.

[Asmodian]

The first time, sure, but the second or third time? It looses the wow really fast and the focal plane being wrong keeps it from felling real, it is always seems like an effect rather than being more immersive. At least for me. :)

The problem with 3D OLEDs is that you have to make the panel worse for everything else to be able to do it, and it adds cost. The film that polarizes every other row of pixels differently blocks light, unnecessarily when not using 3D. Even without 3D we have trouble getting enough brightness for good HDR with OLEDs, HDR + 3D is harder. 3D lost to HDR.

[SamuriHL]

It's why I moved my panny plasma to another room for the 3D titles I have. I agree that HDR is where it's at right now. That's how these things go. 3D will be back, but, it'll be when 8K comes around as a true standard and glasses free. Until then, I'll enjoy the content I have on my plasma and my HDR on my OLED. :)

[NoTechi]

On a projector 3D is stunning and I am not gona give up on that. Most movies are in 3D more impressive then HDR where the picture depth just can't be reached as in 3D. However it is a bit anti social to watch 3D with friends and having glasses on ;)

I will wait and see how AMDs new Navi will perform. Or I even might try the Radeon 7 and if it is just to support the manufacturer who keeps supporting 3D.

NoTechi

[mclingo]

The first time, sure, but the second or third time? It looses the wow really fast and the focal plane being wrong keeps it from felling real, it is always seems like an effect rather than being more immersive. At least for me. :)

The problem with 3D OLEDs is that you have to make the panel worse for everything else to be able to do it, and it adds cost. The film that polarizes every other row of pixels differently blocks light, unnecessarily when not using 3D. Even without 3D we have trouble getting enough brightness for good HDR with OLEDs, HDR + 3D is harder. 3D lost to HDR.

yeah, toally agree about 3D filter and its affect on HDR brightness etc, my EF950 isnt really a HDR TV even though it supports it.

Here's the thing though, i've seen HDR movies on a 2018 OLED and Sony ZD9 on my mates TV's and I just wasnt impressed at all, it was better sure but even my mates say that sat in a pitch black room in front of mine OLED 3D decimates HDR for immersion.

I now HDR has got better since the ZD9 but I just dont think it will ever top the depth and dynamics of OLED 3D, remember in a pitch black room you dont need oodles of nits.

but yeah subjective, i'll be genuinely devastated when 3D blurays finally croak though :(

[mclingo]

On a projector 3D is stunning and I am not gona give up on that. Most movies are in 3D more impressive then HDR where the picture depth just can't be reached as in 3D. However it is a bit anti social to watch 3D with friends and having glasses on ;)

I will wait and see how AMDs new Navi will perform. Or I even might try the Radeon 7 and if it is just to support the manufacturer who keeps supporting 3D.

NoTechi

just remember you wont really need a massively high performing card to watch MVC 3D movies, they are already high quality, you only really need to run NGU high with no other processing and the current RX580 can already do that, as long as you can contain the fan noise. I run my card alsmost silent at NGU sharp medium for both chroma and upscaling for 3D movies, I also add a tiny bit of super-res on the TV itself just the shapren up the grain, this works really well as takes the processing off my PC.

[Alexkral]

Passive 3D is stunning for me as well on a big screen, and even more if you do frame interpolation by SVP or any other method. I don't know why, but the feeling of the light coming from the scene is much more realistic, I think it must be related to the fact that the light changes are smoother.
I have an EDID override for 3DVision but I have not used it for some time, if I remember correctly Tridef is a pretty good alternative, but in any case I don't plan to update the drivers. And I encode the 3D Blu-rays to full OU with Frim source, so for the movies I don't care.
The focal plane not matching the depth makes this fake 3D never really work for me. It is a problem for VR as well. We really need good light fields for 3D. :(
I agree that in the worst case it feels like a pop-up book, but when the 3D is well done I hardly notice that, and even less with the VR.

[mclingo]

yeah there are some really poorly done movies, cant disagree there, most of the MARVEL ones have been pretty decent though, star wars ok but could have done with a bit more depth and pop. One of the best ive seen is actually titanic which is a full conversion, its pretty incredible what they've done there.

I could probably name loads that look great, I own nearly every one released.

[SamuriHL]

Avatar remains one of the best 3d experiences.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[NoTechi]

just remember you wont really need a massively high performing card to watch MVC 3D movies

Yes but I need/want it all like 1080p upscaling, all the new dynamic HDR stuff near max settings and so on. Beside that it never hurts to have a fast card where you don't have to go to it's limits. :)

NoTechi

[Charky]

Avatar remains one of the best 3d experiences.
The fact that "one the best 3D experiences" is ten years old says lots of things about the current state of that tech...

[NoTechi]

Well there are some new as well (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_3D_films_(2005_onwards)) ;)

NoTechi

[Alexkral]

Hugo and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 are the best for me, and the last one is from 2017. But it is true that quality and depth are often just decent.

[BetA13]

How can i explain to people what MadVR does?
i know its a stupid question, but i need some help..
I have a friend and was explaining to him why i use madvr, and he begun to discuss that u cant make the video better, there is nothing more then the source file, you cant add details etc etc..

WHile i do agree with him to a certain point, i cant seem to make him understand what madvr does and how it CAN enhance the picture, etc.. best comparsion would be the latest GoT epsiode. But he is a hard head.

So, anyone else had those discussions about quality and would lend me a hand here :)

I really dont know how to explain it what and why madvr can does what it does.

Thanks ...

[jbnpaul]

How can i explain to people what MadVR does?

i know its a stupid question, but i need some help..

I have a friend and was explaining to him why i use madvr, and he begun to discuss that u cant make the video better, there is nothing more then the source file, you cant add details etc etc..



WHile i do agree with him to a certain point, i cant seem to make him understand what madvr does and how it CAN enhance the picture, etc.. best comparsion would be the latest GoT epsiode. But he is a hard head.



So, anyone else had those discussions about quality and would lend me a hand here :)



I really dont know how to explain it what and why madvr can does what it does.



Thanks ...



Are there any comparison images available that would show what madvr can do with the long night?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alexkral]

WHile i do agree with him to a certain point, i cant seem to make him understand what madvr does and how it CAN enhance the picture, etc..

I don't think that in general the objective is to enhance the picture, but to minimize the quality loss that implies some processing that is necessary, or to hide the poor quality of the picture itself. Sometimes the best way to do it is subjective, sometimes your system is not able to handle the best way, and there are infinite scenarios, so madVR offers you a lot of options, some of them really good, so you can do it which way you deem most convenient.

The exception to this would be tone and gamut mapping, which could be considered a more artistic question, and despite having more than 30 years of history has not yet found an ideal solution.

Anyway, madVR is not the only software that does this, e.g. mpv also has a lot of options for the same things, some of them really good too.

[Warner306]

I'd agree that the purpose of any video player is to minimize quality loss. But a good video player also restores quality lost through content creation and compression. Even content on a Blu-ray disc, encoded in Y'CbCr 4:2:0, is lower quality than a display is capable of presenting. The dominance of streaming video means video quality loss will be even more of an issue going forward, and the average streaming media player puts very little effort into improving it.

Video processors have to carry out a number of basic video processing calculations just to get the image to the display. Every media player will handle those calculations differently, which is where the variance in image quality comes in. On PC alone, you are likely to see slight differences in color at the display amongst different video players because everything is converted to RGB and processed in RGB, which further complicates the job of the video player.

[mclingo]

not sure I can quite agree exactly with that Warner, but I suspect its just your wording I disagree with, you cant actually add quality to an image, you can essentially only fool the eye to to mask issues, like dithering, sharpening or banding removal, perhaps in a decade or so AI might be able to add quality to an image but right now its about minimising loss through the transformations / conversions that occur from original media to player to output.

I agree more with Alexkral.

[nevcairiel]

Loss would mean that there is information present that might be lost if you process it wrong. But upscaling, for example, doesn't really do that. It creates new information - it adds quality. Of course you can also do scaling entirely wrong and destroy quality, but lets assume that everyone manages to at least build a working Bilenear scaler that preserves at least all information.

Preventing loss would be something like doing color conversion correctly, dithering properly when needed, things like that. Such conversions have a similar amount of information afterwards, just in a different format (ie. RGB instead of YUV, etc).
Adding quality would be things like advanced upscaling. You have more information after then you had before - higher resolution, no chroma subsampling.

[BetA13]

thank you for those answers :)
nevcairiel has a goooooooooood point.. Wich i never thought of like that. Yes, there are MORE Information afterwards (upscaling, supersample, etc), wich would be a good point, i think i do understand a bit better now..

BUT PLEASE; keep it coming, i really like to hear some more :)

Cheers

[Alexkral]

I don't see it that way. Upscaling always means a loss of quality, not because you are losing information, but because you are forced to create new information. It's not that you have the option to do it. You are not adding quality, but minimizing that loss of quality by creating new information in a way that the loss of quality is less perceptible.

[mclingo]

Loss would mean that there is information present that might be lost if you process it wrong. But upscaling, for example, doesn't really do that. It creates new information - it adds quality. Of course you can also do scaling entirely wrong and destroy quality, but lets assume that everyone manages to at least build a working Bilenear scaler that preserves at least all information.

Preventing loss would be something like doing color conversion correctly, dithering properly when needed, things like that. Such conversions have a similar amount of information afterwards, just in a different format (ie. RGB instead of YUV, etc).
Adding quality would be things like advanced upscaling. You have more information after then you had before - higher resolution, no chroma subsampling.

it adds "data" but it cannot increase the "quality" of the image only the perceived quality of the image as you cant add information to an image that wasnt there in the first place.

I guess it depends on how you define "quality" for me, a native 4k image is better "quality" than a native 1080p image as there is more real information captured, the quality of an image on one level is purely about the information captured and you cant add that later, you can only approximate that information, therefore you are not increasing the quality of the image, only the resolution and perceived quality. However if you capture a blurry 4k image a non blurry 1080p image could be defined as a better quality image, so there is room for interpretation.

I wouldl still state that MADVR is not increasing the quality of the image, it is adding new data but no new information about the subject captured, therefore it cannot be increasing the quality of the image.

[Asmodian]

A 1080p source upscaled to 4K with NGU very high looks better than the original 1080p source viewed at the same size. Just writing this off as irrelevant seems counter productive. madVR's chroma upsampling is way better than simply using bilinear upscaling before conversion to RGB. You can say Nearest Neighbor is the best option because it does not change the source pixels but since the resulting image very obviously looks worse than NGU AA very high I will stick to using NGU. :p

The resulting image from madVR looks better, what it this effect if not improved quality? Sometimes you have to drop the theory and look at the results with common sense.

Remember the source is not 100% quality, the original scene viewed with our eyes is 100% quality, and we want to use the source to try to get as close to the look of the latter as possible. The original source pixels are not special things that must be preserved for some reason, they are simply the data set we have available to try to approximate the original scene from.

[Warner306]

thank you for those answers :)
nevcairiel has a goooooooooood point.. Wich i never thought of like that. Yes, there are MORE Information afterwards (upscaling, supersample, etc), wich would be a good point, i think i do understand a bit better now..

BUT PLEASE; keep it coming, i really like to hear some more :)

Cheers

This article provides a test that is both a good test of preserving the quality of the source through color space conversions and adding quality in the compressed chroma channel:

http://spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio-item/choosing-a-color-space/

And this post shows how some devices can go wrong when doing the simplest of video processing, such as outputting an 8-bit RGB test pattern with the same input and output RGB values, with no other work to do:

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/895245/shield-tv/picture-quality-and-color-space-evaluation/post/4818394/#4818394

This is how the Nvidia Shield used to score on the video benchmark test:

https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/895245/shield-tv/picture-quality-and-color-space-evaluation/1/

I think of the use of subtle noise reduction, artifact removal and chroma upscaling as restoring quality lost through the camera lens or from when the source master is converted for distribution. It looked better on the mastering monitor and some attempt has been made to restore any lost detail (mostly due to subsampling and compression).

[Alexkral]

A 1080p source upscaled to 4K with NGU very high looks better than the original 1080p source viewed at the same size.
That does not make any sense to me. I could test it a hundred times with NGU very high, FSRCNNX, waifu ... and I'm sure the original 1080p source would always look better to me. Up to some point, even downscaling it would look better, it would lose information but it would be sharper.

And the original source pixels are the only reference we have of the original scene, so trying to preserve them is the best way to aproximate to it. From there, any creative option is always going to be debatable.

[nevcairiel]

That does not make any sense to me. I could test it a hundred times with NGU very high, FSRCNNX, waifu ... and I'm sure the original 1080p source would always look better to me. Up to some point, even downscaling it would look better, it would lose information but it would be sharper.


Its practically impossible to make a fair comparison, either way.
A display has a native resolution, so you would never have one single display that can show the same image, in the same size, in both 1080p or 4K without some upscaling.

However, tests have shown that a properly upscaled image on a 4K TV can look better in controlled settings then a native 1080p image on 1080p display. Upscaling can increase the perceived details, especially when the source is already pretty high quality. This might be "fake" quality, but what users prefer is what wins either way.

Ultimately this is irrelevant anyway, since you have one display with one resolution, and all content needs to be shown on it. Running a display at anything but native resolution would just be fooling yourself, since the display will do the upscaling then.


And the original source pixels are the only reference we have of the original scene, so trying to preserve them is the best way to aproximate to it.

Thats called "Nearest Neighbor", and its super ugly for any normal content, because you get a lot of aliasing. The image looks perceivably low resolution. (Its even worse if you need to downscale, entire information is just lost)

So you start upsampling the image in some way. Any artificial limitations you impose on the upscaling process will always make it worse. So something like "but it must preserve the original pixel" will result in a worse result either way. If you upsample to a ratio not a power of 2, this would not work anyway, since the original pixel don't fall onto positions where there are pixel in the output resolution.

Ultimately anyone can do what they prefer, of course. And there is plenty options for everyone.

[Asmodian]

Up to some point, even downscaling it would look better, it would lose information but it would be sharper.

It is only sharper if you view it at a smaller size so details occupy less of your vision. It is less sharp after downscaling if you view it at the same angular size in your field of view. A thumbnail of an out of focus photo can look fine, but that does not mean that downscaling would help the original image look any sharper.

[Alexkral]

Yes, that's right, I was incorrectly assuming a different angular size. Anyway, I was not referring to preserve the exact original pixels, but to preserve the way they should look at a different image size. I don't know much about upscaling, in tone mapping for example this is done sometimes by matching the perceived brightness or contrast. But this is probably very close to what you were saying.:)

[juffi]

MadVR seems to switch display mode every time I start and stop playback with MPC-BE. I have disabled "switch to matching display mode" and "restore original display mode".

How to prevent that happening? I have an Optoma UHD51 which has exceptionally long and annoying display mode change delay.

[mclingo]

anyone been watching Doom Patrol, banding and streaming artifacts horrific, even with MADVR at HIGH.

[chros]

Forget about Intel :) go for AMD this time

If anybody is happened to be bored before Monday's announcements at Computex: Intel is dead (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdCi_r_lm7o) :)

... Intel ... what they did to the PC market in the last decade due to lack of competition.

I just came across a 1.5 years old similar video about nVidia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd1bp9eSfwo) as well. Really interesting, especially the conclusions at the end.

Enjoy!

[huhn]

someone really likes click bait videos here...
i mean intel can't produce enough CPU to meet demand that'S a clear sign of a dead company!

[chros]

someone really likes click bait videos here...
i mean intel can't produce enough CPU to meet demand that'S a clear sign of a dead company!
:) Yeah, maybe the word "dead" is a bit strong :)

[huhn]

yeah maybe every single word in the title is miss leading,
so why should anyone even trust/hear out a word of a person that is clearly lying with the title?

[mclingo]

something ive wondered about before but never really got an answer to. In windows audio control panel my HTPC keeps defaulting to STEREO 16bit 48khz instead of 7.1 24bit 192 khz which I want it set to. When playing a movie using KODI or something else and bitstreaming what quality does it bitsteam at, your windows setting or does it automatically output the cards max setting, does whats set in the control panel acually matter at all, could I just leave it set at stereo 16/48?

I setup a batch file to run at logon which switches it back to 7.1 but it doesnt always work and I often forget about it, its quite annoying and I havent yet found a way around this, anyone else?

[mclingo]

or does it bitstream at the movies encoded rate regardless of what windows it set to?

[SamuriHL]

Bitstreaming bypasses the windows settings completely. It's sent directly to your receiver so whatever it's encoded as and whatever your receiver does with that have nothing to do with windows settings at all.

[mclingo]

cool thanks, i guess my only concern is youtubewhich wont bitstream, but thats still not surround anyway is it, is youtube still just outputting in stereo on a PC desktop?

[huhn]

youtube uses multi channel opus so you are unlikely to bitstream that.

[mclingo]

you cant get any surround on youtube with desktop PC can you?, I heard firefox supports it but I dont use it, chrome doesnt.

[huhn]

no clue what you are talking about. i can clearly play multi channel on my PC.

[mclingo]

you can play multi channel videos on youtube and you get full surround sound using google chrome?, when I play stuff it simply sums the rears to the front, sure your amp is just upmixing to virtual surround, pretty sure youtube is only stereo using chrome on a pc.

[mclingo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzv63Q2beg0

[huhn]

i tested it using mpc-hc it's working fine.

[chros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzv63Q2beg0
That video only has 2ch sound at 1080p, using MPC-BE:
Video: H.264/AVC 1920x1080 25fps [VideoHandler - MPEG4 Video (H264) (AVC (H.264), High Profile, Level 4.0, 1920x1080, 25.000 fps)]
Audio: AAC 44100Hz 2.0 chn [SoundHandler - MPEG-4 Audio (AAC, 44.1 kHz, 2.0 chn, 16 bit)]

Can you link one that indeed has 6ch?

[mclingo]

that video wasnt a test video, i posted it as it explains in detail why youtube doesnt have surround sound on PC/laptops in a browser.

perhaps i'm not making myself clear here, I was wondering why so many people where saying they are getting full surround sound from youtube in a browser when it does not appear to be technically possible, i've only managed to get 2.0 with all other channels summing to front, i cant even get phased rear as part of the dolby quad matrix (see video)

[nussman]

If you want an expample for „not technically possible“: 4K 444 RGB 60hz / 10bit

[mclingo]

thats a bit random, whats your point?

[nevcairiel]

The point is that it is very well technically possible to do multi-channel on a PC, and that YouTube does provide multi-channel audio. If a particular browser (or any browser) doesn't play that, its the browsers problem. Many people consume YouTube through media frontends on a HTPC, which doesn't involve a browser for playback.

This video for example serves 5.1 AAC: (and yes, this is also available with "real" content, not just this test video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTHtXgnhqfM

If you play that with MPC-HC, you get 5.1 audio that you cannot bitstream.

[mclingo]

again, i'm simply stating its not technically possible to do 5.1/7.1 or any type of surround in desktop Chrome, I am aware it can be gained in using other methods, I cant even get my rear channels to process anything at all in chrome, this is ALL i'm seaking to get clarification on.

How youtube works is covered i the video I posted, essentially what it states is that when something is uploaded to youtube the original video is held "somewhere" but when its streamed its re-encoded in dolby stereo in most PC browsers. However he states that some platforms could be getting access to the original 5.1/7.1 source but people could be thinking they are getting 5.1/7.1 when they are really only getting phased dolby 2.0 back channels or their audio equipment is upmixing to 5.1/7.1.


I'll ask again, given that there are a lot of people out there stating they are getting surround sound through CHROME BROWSER on their desktop PCs, how are they achieving this if I cant, and I cant get anything out of my rears at all, or are they just mistaken?

[nevcairiel]

You are the only one talking about Chrome. Noone else even mentioned a particular kind of browser. The original point was that non-bitstreamable multi-channel audio exists and some people play that. Not that it doesn't work on your system with your particular software.

[richardpl]

There are certainly multi-channel ambisonics on youtube.
They usually play as stereo via browser.

[mclingo]

i give up.

[Asmodian]

You already know the answer to your question, both the first and second one. What are you giving up?

No, no one else gets multichannel out of Chrome. Youtube is a different story, they are not synonymous.

[chros]

This video for example serves 5.1 AAC: (and yes, this is also available with "real" content, not just this test video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTHtXgnhqfM

If you play that with MPC-HC, you get 5.1 audio that you cannot bitstream.
Thanks, it works in MPC-HC, but not in MPB-BE (only 2ch audio).

[ashlar42]

Thanks, it works in MPC-HC, but not in MPB-BE (only 2ch audio).Just loaded it in MPC-BE, disabling the built-in YouTube web page parser, selected the multichannel AAC track and it played it without a problem.

[leeperry]

kinda mVR-related but anyway it's the chitchat topic so here goes, this PDF makes very clear that REC.709 calls for D65 white point: https://app.spectracal.com/Documents/White%20Papers/Calibrating%20Color-Critical%20Monitors.pdf
6500 Kelvin being the neutral white/gray color specified by the BT.709 industry standard for HDTV images
yet, I often see video's being shot at 5200K: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-aaDs5heQ4&feature=youtu.be&t=46

what gives :confused:

final result is plenty red, though: https://youtu.be/2S24-y0Ij3Y?t=31

I guess they prolly shoot at 48fps in order to control motion-blur when downgrading to 24

[nevcairiel]

Its called post-processing or mastering. That process can change anything in the video between the camera and your display. :p

[leeperry]

Breaking news lol, I just wonder why they don't record in D65 in the first place huh? Even with high bit-depth 3DLUT's, is 5200K>6500K conversion lossless?

I've seen it on EU / US & korean videos, must be a reason to it. I guess they use digital cameras with REC.709 gamut so why "daylight" 5200K :confused:

Anyhow, indeed motion blur is mostly inexistant in that 24fps final video so I guess recording in 48fps does indeed wonders if post-processing to 24 is right :)

[huhn]

depending on the point of view you can do this "lossless" ignoring rounding/dithering bit deep not the issue here. changing the white point effects the CR if you have to match another white point you will lose CR because you can't reach the whites white anymore. if a video is more red or not has nothing to do with this it just looks like this because they wanted it to look like this.

[leeperry]

indeed, theoretically they are crippling native CR but of course they will increase it artificially in every scene afterwards during mastering.

that screenshot says "SDI" & "4K" and REC.2020 also calls for D65: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._2020

they go 48fps so they know what they're doing and I guess there's a good reason to 5200K, usually koreans sit on top of technology so they woulda gone D65 if that was a better choice....oh well :D

[mclingo]

AMD NAVI looks interesting, wonder if we'll see MADVR performance catch up with NVIDIA cards.

[chros]

AMD NAVI looks interesting, wonder if we'll see MADVR performance catch up with NVIDIA cards.
Wasn't Vega already the same?

[huhn]

no vega has now a good price/performance unlike the planned price for navi.

[chros]

Yep, it's a joke at this price point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoRLmurtxE
I mean they launched cards that:
- similar to 2070, that is almost 1 year (!) old at the same price?! And this price was artificially pumped up by the competition 2 years ago!
- at the same time it draws more power (!), while it's on 7nm? wtf?!

If it was 250 ... Just buy a 3 years old used pascal card for 100-200 with the same performance and (less?) power consumption :D
That's what became of the GPU market in the last 4 years, so don't support these lunatics. :)

What's interesting to me to see that the same (!) company that does really well on 1 front, does this on the other ... That tells you a lot ...

[huhn]

and nvida can say it cost more because these cards are very huge term of size and they have these tensor and rt core and even the demo feature of ray tracing what does AMD add an adaptive sharpen filter time to double the price?
they can't even beat the clock from nvidia with that 7nm note...

i can already get an 2060 for 333 € including a ton of tax.

[nevcairiel]

they can't even beat the clock from nvidia with that 7nm note...

Thats not unexpected. New nodes often clock lower until they have been fully optimized.

[huhn]

the node is a year or better a year in mass production and i understand why zen 2 can't reach 5 GHZ is not like the 7 nm node is been refined half a decade longer then intel panned and that created a specail situation in the CPU market.

with maxwell to pascal we got from 1.4 to 1.9 ghz i understand that this is unusual.

but the issue with navi is that we know it can do 1.9 ghz but there design can't run at that clock constantly so the node can do it but AMD managed to create a GPU that runs at 1.7 ghz and needs more power then a nvidia card that run at 2.0 ghz with an old 16 nm node renamed to 12nm. something doesn't add up here and it can'T be the node if it is supposed to be vastly more efficient at the same clock rate.

[chros]

but the issue with navi is that we know it can do 1.9 ghz but there design can't run at that clock constantly so the node can do it but AMD managed to create a GPU that runs at 1.7 ghz and needs more power then a nvidia card that run at 2.0 ghz with an old 16 nm node renamed to 12nm. something doesn't add up here and it can'T be the node if it is supposed to be vastly more efficient at the same clock rate.
Yes, navi is the new polaris. nvidia is lightyears ahead in terms of technology.

[NoTechi]

Yes, navi is the new polaris. nvidia is lightyears ahead in terms of technology.

Beside future 3D support ... :mad:

NoTechi

[leeperry]

Guys, is there any simple way for a n00b to process SSIM downscaling on pics somehow? Or what's the second best option then?

Asking coz my local stray cats refuge have to drastically downscale pics for their website and they use the crappiest algo ever, even my pristine pics look like junk :o

PS: nvm, ResizeMagic in "sharper" mode looks quite nice

[amayra]

why i can't run MADVR with wine or dxvk ?

[Warner306]

Those with LG OLEDs might find this post interesting. I was reading through the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion thread at AVS Forum and Stacey Spears was explaining how the LG's PC mode works. He owns an LG OLED and claims PC mode processes the image at 8-bits. That might explain why only 8-bits doesn't exhibit banding on LG OLEDs:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3075780-spears-munsil-uhd-hdr-benchmark-disc-discussion-4.html#post58289648

[chros]

Those with LG OLEDs might find this post interesting. I was reading through the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion thread at AVS Forum and Stacey Spears was explaining how the LG's PC mode works. He owns an LG OLED and claims PC mode processes the image at 8-bits.
Thanks, but personally I disagree with it and I'd prefer @jk82 's opinion (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2962154-2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk-639.html#post58302344).

That might explain why only 8-bits doesn't exhibit banding on LG OLEDs
But it does! :)
link (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2962154-2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk-639.html#post58302464) , link (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836)

[huhn]

if you are only using 8 bit processing you are "obviously" getting banding even with an 8 bit dithered input signal

[Warner306]

You would take jk82's opinion over one of the world's leading experts on video processing who talks to engineers from manufacturers like LG all the time? Come on. I don't think he has the precise answer to everything, either, but he owns an LG OLED and has run a battery of his own tests on the display.

If Stacey Spears isn't an expert, who is?

Edit: In that post, he says "the video goes 8-bit" in PC mode, so that doesn't necessarily mean all image processing happens at 8-bits, but some compromise has to be made to get 4:4:4 chroma processing on a chip designed for 4:2:2 image processing. Chroma makes up 2/3 of the signal bandwidth and requires an equivalent of amount of space reserved in memory for image processing calculations.

[huhn]

you can do processing with 8 bit and store it in 32 bit you will still get banding and one time is enough to ruin the image.

in PC mode most TV can't do motion interpolation if that is not enough processing saved(well pretty much only memory) i don't know what will and these TV now have smartphone CPUs now they can do a full RGB pipe without any issues what so ever.

there are cortex CPU in them and your smart phone can do simple 32 bit RGB processing...

[Warner306]

Yes, but Stacey says in that thread that most off-the-shelf TV processors are designed for 4:2:2 image processing. It sounds more like subsampling on TV's is a hardware limitation and not a software limitation. They must be cheaper that way.

[huhn]

it's simply not worth the development time.

who does critical work with colors using a TV no one sane the rest doesn't notice banding who uses RGB and sees the difference between RGB and 4:2:2 clearly not the AVG TV user.

BTW it is clearly not a hardware limitation sony can do everything with RGB/4:4:4 and extremely cheap monitors too.

[Warner306]

Maybe Sony uses a more expensive processing chip. I don't have all the answers, either, but the development time argument is somewhat weak compared to other arguments like devoting additional processing to improving the image elsewhere on the same chip and not having anything left for 4:4:4 chroma calculations. That doesn't explain why PC mode can't have perfect 4:4:4 chroma with higher bit depth processing, but I would guess there is not enough space in the processing pipeline of some cheaper processing chips. That is akin to calling TV engineers "lazy" when they are more or less perfecting the identical TV model each year with small upgrades. Why would LG put out a somewhat broken PC mode on purpose?

[j82k]

I wouldn't be surprised if the cause of the increased banding on LG Oleds in pc-mode isn't the 4:4:4 chroma but the low input lag. Because I also noticed increased banding in non-pc mode when using the game preset which gives the same 21ms of input lag as pc-mode does.

I noticed this while playing the game 'Observer' on the nintendo switch which has some very dark scenes with lots of near-black gradients. Going back and forth between the game preset and a non-game preset is almost instant so it's easy to see the difference. Of course all picture processing was disabled when I did this.
There probably is some less accurate processing going on internally to archive lowest possible input lag. If this is the case then it's a shame the TV doesn't offer a 4:4:4 mode with higher input lag and no banding problems.

I'm not saying that what Stacey Spears wrote is wrong but there is more to it than that. There is the absolutely terrible banding in pc mode with 10-bit output but then there is also the only slightly worse banding with 8-bit output, which most people probably just don't notice.

[huhn]

sorry but TV manufacture are not trying to perfect there devices. it's a company they want to make money.

just look at those to 2:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/q70-q70r-qled
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/samsung/chg70

there is a chance that you could run the TV with board of the monitor and the banding will be gone.

and the monitor screen has less imputlag supports HDR and HFR. so it processing is magnitudes faster and still does better.

or take a look at this LG screen yes LG: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/lg/27uk650-w

beware that rtings banding test is still flawed and only screens with the same input bit deep should be compared.

it's not broken on purpose it just good enough in there eyes.

[chros]

I wouldn't be surprised if the cause of the increased banding on LG Oleds in pc-mode isn't the 4:4:4 chroma but the low input lag. Because I also noticed increased banding in non-pc mode when using the game preset which gives the same 21ms of input lag as pc-mode does.
...
There probably is some less accurate processing going on internally to archive lowest possible input lag. If this is the case then it's a shame the TV doesn't offer a 4:4:4 mode with higher input lag and no banding problems.
Thanks, interesting, I didn't know about this since I never used the normal mode and I don't play games.

You would take jk82's opinion over one of the world's leading experts on video processing who talks to engineers from manufacturers like LG all the time? Come on.

Maybe it's surprising, but I reached the point in my life when I more believe clever guys like Us than experts/specialist/etc. :)

[Warner306]

Maybe it's surprising, but I reached the point in my life when I more believe clever guys like Us than experts/specialist/etc. :)

When you search for his bio, his current job titles are "Sr. Principal Engineer, Software Applications at RED Digital Cinema" and "Chief Color Scientist at SpectraCal."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stacey-spears-611a249

https://www.ravepubs.com/spectracal-launches-new-color-calibration-software-assimilate-scratch/

You should trust a color scientist. I don't know if he still works with the math at this point in his career. But if you read through that thread, you'll find his head is filled with all sorts of useful knowledge on video processing and insider knowledge of the various TVs, projectors and Blu-ray players.

In that particular thread, he sent one user's concerns about Dolby Vision on Apple TV in an email addressed to Dolby. I've also seen posts on other forums where he is talking to people who are shooting current TV shows and movies, telling them how to use their equipment. I would consider him to be a reliable expert.

[chros]

I would consider him to be a reliable expert.
OK, cheers.

[el Filou]

Now that madVR will be a commercial product https://www.madvrlabs.llc/ I hope to see professional reviewers compare its dynamic tonemapping to the ones in various displays, or even compare HDR10 with madVR to the Dolby Vision version on some Blu-rays. :)I just wonder why they don't record in D65 in the first place huh? Even with high bit-depth 3DLUT's, is 5200K>6500K conversion lossless?
I've seen it on EU / US & korean videos, must be a reason to it. I guess they use digital cameras with REC.709 gamut so why "daylight" 5200K :confused:That number you see on the camera monitor is the real colour temperature of the lighting used for the scene. For another recent example that springs to my mind, if you watch the GoT documentary 'The Last Watch' you'll see 3200K on their monitors for the torch-lighting night scenes.
If they 'shot at D6500' for this particular environment the colours would be all wrong like when you set your TV to standard/cold temp, so it's better to record with the real scene lighting as reference. Mastering is never lossless anyway.

[Warner306]

Now that madVR will be a commercial product https://www.madvrlabs.llc/ I hope to see professional reviewers compare its dynamic tonemapping to the ones in various displays, or even compare HDR10 with madVR to the Dolby Vision version on some Blu-rays. :)

It should be no contest for Dolby Vision. You can do trim passes in Dolby Vision at different levels of peak brightness where the content is tone mapped by a colorist to look appropriate at different brightness levels. So the tone mapping should be far more precise than dynamic HDR10 and done per frame. The science on how to apply gamut mapping used by madVR is also based similar logic recommended by Dolby.

The newest Dolby Vision standard is trying to become a preferred format over HLG for combined HDR/SDR projects by including trim passes for SDR grades. Dolby has an automatic HDR to SDR algorithm that can be applied to the HDR version and hand-tweaked by a colorist to make each scene look as desired. The resulting SDR grade is supposed to look better and not worse than starting in SDR to begin with. If projectors supported Dolby Vision, those with projectors might actually prefer this HDR to SDR grade over the HDR grade.

https://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2019/3/18/dolby-vision-and-independent-filmmaking-e75yg

[Shiroe]

Is there a difference between using madVR on Windows 10 and Windows 8.1?

Using LAV Filters Megamix's mid-tier (NGU medium) preset on Windows 10 to watch anime gave me 60 FPS. I switched to Windows 8.1 for reasons, and now the same preset gives me 30 FPS. Just in case, I am also using an older NVIDIA driver on Windows 8.1, one that predates RTX graphics, also for reasons.

Also, which RTX graphics cards are sufficient for watching 720p and 1080p anime on a Full HD, QHD, or 4K monitor using the madVR settings found here (https://anime.my/tutorials/madvr/) with some minor adjustments, such as higher values for sharpen edges, thin edges, and AdaptiveSharpen and without any frame drops during playback, when seeking, and when entering or exiting fullscreen, etcetera? And which AMD graphics cards are sufficient? Ignoring prices, is NVIDIA or AMD better in terms of support and performance?

[huhn]

windows 8 can't do WFS 10 bit that's the major difference for now.

if you ignore prices nothing beats nvidia.
polaris performance bad with NGU. navi is unknown and for some reason vega user don't share number and only tell you madVR works with it...

[huhn]

i'm currently running 18941 WDDM 2.6 with 431.36 nvidia driver and i have no banding.
can someone confirm if stable 1903 version is fixed?

[ryrynz]

I asked an Nvidia employee online about it a few days back and they said there was no update for this issue as of yet and they're still working with MS. So, no not fixed yet.

[mclingo]

ive had my OLED TV for nearly 5 years now, I've decided I want to teach myself how to calibrate and do it on both my TV's, but on the cheap. Whats the cheapest unit I can get new or used that anyone can recommend for an OLED calibration?

[chros]

i1Display Pro (https://www.amazon.co.uk/X-Rite-i1Display-Pro-Black-silver/dp/B0055MBQOW) (I think you can buy used one as well if it's not 5 years old, but recent).

[mclingo]

i1Display Pro (https://www.amazon.co.uk/X-Rite-i1Display-Pro-Black-silver/dp/B0055MBQOW) (I think you can buy used one as well if it's not 5 years old, but recent).

Thanks, i'll have a look, is this any good just to get me going, I can upgrade to something better later when I have more cash.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/X-Rite-Eye-On-Display-LT-Monitor-Colour-Correction/153469866414?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

[chros]

No, you have to search for exactly that name (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=i1+display+pro&_sop=15).

[mclingo]

I mean will the cheaper one do for now, will it give me a basic color calibration, I cant afford the display pro one right now.

[huhn]

never heard of that cheap meter. don't cheap out and buy twice.
i1d3 has a lot of correction this cheap one clearly not.
a color munki is an option but is really slow on dark patches.

[e-t172]

Whats the cheapest unit I can get new or used that anyone can recommend for an OLED calibration?

The reference is the i1 Display Pro as mentioned above. However, the cheaper ColorMunki Display has the same hardware and should produce the same results (verified by comparing results from my i1 Display Pro to a friend's ColorMunki). The only difference is the software included (which doesn't matter as you likely won't use it) and, most importantly, the ColorMunki has been deliberately crippled to be slower at making measurements. Bottom line: if you're impatient, go for the i1 Display Pro. If you're patient, go for the ColorMunki Display.

[Asmodian]

And by patient we mean hours and hours for a full patch set. Even with an i1Display Pro it takes me 3 to 5 hours to do a full calibration (3500+ patches), I have never used a ColorMunki but slower would be painful!

[mclingo]

ok thanks all

[SamuriHL]

I need to get me one of these, as well. I'd like to properly calibrate both my C8 and my Panny plasma one of these days. I'll need to save some pennies but it's going on my Christmas list. LOL

[SamuriHL]

This isn't really "madvr" related but I do think this is a good thing for the average consumer.

https://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/uhd-alliance/filmmaker-mode/4K/hdr/LG/Vizio/Panasonic/uhd-alliance-announces-filmmaker-mode-for-more-accurate-picture-on-4k-tvs/44731

Not to mention, and the reason I bring it up here, I'm IMPRESSED that the industry finally did something as a unified front! LOL This could be interesting to watch.

[huhn]

madVR could trigger it.

but... even remotely believing in this a feature scares me and pretty much every not terrible Tv manufacture does something like this with cinema or real cinema.

[SamuriHL]

Well, I think this is more than just cinema or real cinema mode cause those still sometimes enable all the horrible post processing that we mostly hate. I'm not suggesting advanced users need or want it but for the average viewer, this is probably going to end up being a good thing.

[Warner306]

I hope the factory color calibration is better than the "accurate" picture presets of most displays. But I can't see display manufacturers putting that much effort into getting the RGB high/low calibrated from the factory. My Samsung TV was a little over Delta E ~1 when it was first turned on. It is possible.

[SamuriHL]

I tend to agree with you there. I don't think this is meant for the madvr crowd. I think it's meant for the average consumer who bitches about the soap opera effect or wicked stuttering in panning shots. I have real doubts that it'll turn a thousand dollar 55" vizio into a mastering display. Lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Warner306]

Getting the grayscale close to Delta E ~1 without having the Warm color temperature look too yellow in the whites would likely be good enough. That is what I was referring to. I know many don't like the Warm color presets on many TVs because the colors look too warm. Only expensive TVs seem to put any care into the factory calibration.

[Asmodian]

It has actually improved really a lot in the last several years, probably due to white LEDs getting much better. I measured shockingly high dE values on those early LED lit LCDs, even many of the CCFL backlights had gamuts much smaller than BT.709. Above 15 dE was very common along with whites that measured 8000-9000K or higher, but were also way off the black body curve. You couldn't calibrate that to anything usable.

Now even very cheap displays' dE values tend to stay below ~10 or so with pretty good BT.709 gamuts, though my recent sample size isn't too large. It is still not really possible to get a good calibration on them but at least the picture is halfway decent out of the box. :p

I could see this initiative being a reasonable improvement, at least there is a actual target and the basic hardware should be capable. I think a lot of TVs have been tuned by focus groups of normal consumers, who tended to like brighter and more saturated colors when asked which image looks better.

[SamuriHL]

I think that's pretty accurate. At least with this being driven by directors like nolan and others in the industry it should be closer to what they envision for their films. It's not likely going to be perfect and certainly won't compete with a properly calibrated screen but even if it gets home viewing a little closer to the cinema ideal it's really a good thing imo.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[mclingo]

I dont like how Nolan films or masters near black stuff, for example, the star fields in interstellar were grey and lost all their impact, you end up having to crush his movies slightly at 5IRE I find.

so.. I got one of these on ebay, it was so cheap (£9 I thought I could get it to familiarize myself with DISPLAY CAL and buy something better at a later date, assuming I can get it to work with win10, if not I can host a win7 VM.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ColorVision-S2E100-Spyder2-Express/dp/B000ES4PYU

any thoughts on the spyder2?

[huhn]

could be completely useless now.

the first mater that doesn't drift hard was the i1d3 and the spyder 2 is many many years older it could be 12 years old.

if you grab the firmware from the installer it will work with displaycal but this thing is not to be trusted anymore.

[mclingo]

you are probably right, i'll pickup something better when I have the cash if its easy enough to do using DISPLAYCAL

[mclingo]

......

Hi, did you get my private message reply, none of them seem to be sending for some reason, my sent box its empty and nothing appears on the message thread.

[Asmodian]

I did. :)

[mclingo]

Thanks again :)

[mclingo2]

Hi, my email account got hacked so I had to shut it down, i'm using this as a templ account, anyone know how I can get my email changed on my main DOOM9 account, there seems to be no support section anymore.

[huhn]

https://forum.doom9.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45

[mclingo2]

i've PM'd foxyshadis

[mclingo2]

I did. :)

Hi, did you get my recent private message form this new account?

Mclingo :)

[MashStari]

Is any of you having issues when playing a movie using PotPlayer+MadVR? After the last W10 updates from yesterday (ver.1903) MadVR crashes when Potplayer starts. :(

[QBhd]

It was fine for me last night... I'm sure I got this week's update

QB

[MashStari]

Well, I installed the last version of MPC-BE and configured with MadVR and works fine, it seems somenting related with Potplayer =/

[Klaus1189]

My advice, stay with MPC-BE ;)

[pirlouy]

I've noticed that with madVR, I have background sound. It's like coil whine, except it is real sound produced by computer.
It means if I use another soundcard that the HDMI (nVidia 1060), for example optical from motherboard, I still have this background sound, and like people mentioned in the past, with NGU, it is amplified.
Sound is really coming for speakers and not motherboard. So strange. Without NGU, it is weak but it is here. I don't have that with mpv ou a browser or even powerful games !

[huhn]

and how is this opotical device powered?

it's impossible to create audio from a video renderer but is is not impossible to fill the signal with dirty power that creates hearable artifacts in speaker.

[Asmodian]

madVR is an unusual power load on GPUs (very spiky) so some GPUs that do not normally whine will when running madVR. Your issue sounds similar. You must have some electrical crosstalk between your audio channels and your GPU. :scared:

[huhn]

this is a pretty far spread issue i can easily make a recording with that using different soundcards one that totally fixed the issue too.

the AVG user doesn't care about stuff liek this they only care about loud...

[pirlouy]

I never said the video renderer created sound by himself. I have no doubt there's no sound code in madVR.
But still I'm surprised how a GPU can create disturbance for something which does not seem that connected (optical soundcard from motherboard).
And I'm also surprised the noise comes only with madVR. I'm certain you will say madVR code is perfect, but as I don't have this sound with other applications (including GPU stress tests), I have my doubts.

the AVG user doesn't care about stuff liek this they only care about loud...I'm not sure to understand this sentence, from my post, we can see I care about sound (and even hardware). I care more about sound that image. I don't use madVR that much, that's why I did not complain before.

[huhn]

I never said the video renderer created sound by himself. I have no doubt there's no sound code in madVR.
But still I'm surprised how a GPU can create disturbance for something which does not seem that connected (optical soundcard from motherboard).
And I'm also surprised the noise comes only with madVR. I'm certain you will say madVR code is perfect, but as I don't have this sound with other applications (including GPU stress tests), I have my doubts.
is the amp DAC power by USB?

GPUs can do what ever they want it it should never effect audio everything else is a hardware flaw.
coilwhine on a GPU is a hardware flaw the program in question has nothing todo with that.
hearable noise in the audio signal is the same.

I'm not sure to understand this sentence, from my post, we can see I care about sound (and even hardware). I care more about sound that image. I don't use madVR that much, that's why I did not complain before.

why would you think i mean you with that only saying this is not as rare as it may seem.

[clsid]

It is called electromagnetic interference (EMI) and it's a pretty common issue. Google for that to get tips on how to reduce/solve it.

[Asmodian]

And I'm also surprised the noise comes only with madVR. I'm certain you will say madVR code is perfect, but as I don't have this sound with other applications (including GPU stress tests), I have my doubts.

As I mentioned before, madVR is a very unusual load on GPUs. A GPU stress test is nothing like madVR. Also, how would 'imperfect' code in madVR cause random noise on your soundcard that changed with the resize algorithm used? And only on your system? It makes a lot more sense that the exact behavior of the GPU power draw, which changes based on the algorithms used and is unique to madVR, is interfering with the audio device.

[pirlouy]

@huhn: No. The DAC is in a dedicated preamplifier (which handles HDMI and optical).
I can understand Coil Whine is a a defect on hardware. But I have my doubts on real sound produced by faulty GPU. The noise is the same with HDMI (from GPU) and optical (from motherboard).

@clsid: Thanks for the exact terms to google. Unfortunately no easy solution in the end.

@Asmodian: I'm still unsure how madVR can be an unusual load on GPU compared to a stress test app. I understand it's easier to think it's an hardware issue for logical reasons. But this sound, really loud when using NGU maximum possible algorithm, is also present when I use lesser algorithms, like Lanczos3. It's not as loud, but still I can hear it if there's no sound at that moment.
And I'm surprised I can hear it with what looks classical algorithms, whereas I don't have this problem with EVR custom for example, or mpv (with directX output).

In the end, instead of searching for solution, I prefer to use mpv with works very well in 95% of my videos.

[huhn]

link me the device plz an optical signal alone can't transfer this. transferring the "dirty signals" sadly happening with HDMI quite often.

as i said i can easily demonstrate this issue and i even have a sound card that can beat it and i have an "expensive" card that worse then on board.

this is not a madVR issues this happens all the time in computer games too is known in application that run at a real high refreshrate like.

case or AVR grounding often helps it can create it too is known as ground loop feedback you can read more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_loop_(electricity)

edit: fixed the link doom9 doesn't like links that end with an ")"

[pirlouy]

The dedicated processor is a Nakamichi AV1. It's a rebrand of a Chinese product from Tonewinner company.
The same dirty signal is in my speakers when using optical yet.
If I change source on my processor (and still using madVR NGU in the same time), I don't have this sound on my speakers, so it's not an electrical interference. The sound is really created by some hardware in my computer (GPU/motherboard/PSU).
If it was easy to test with an external soundcard, I'd do it but it's too complicated (limited access + laziness). One day I'll try though.

[huhn]

are you using opt 2 just to make sure you are not using koax? hdmi isn't used at the same time because this alone can create this issue so direct connected to the TV?

If it was easy to test with an external soundcard, I'd do it but it's too complicated (limited access + laziness). One day I'll try though.

don't waste your money i brought a relative bad x570 mainboard because the onboard audio solution was supposed to be far above AVG and it was for me i don't need an soundcard anymore to fix these issues but a friend brought the same board for the same reason and he got is really really bad the issue was present all the time with below 60 FPS games...
the is currently using the audio output of it's monitor it works so i'm not questioning.

my RX 5700 XT is currently reaching a new high and only in one system i can replace the GPU and it is gone or a essence STX but the AE-5 is worse then the onboard but the x570 onboard doesn't care so no conclusion at all i can't even blame the card could be the combination of PSU and card the old board or what ever...

[Asmodian]

If I change source on my processor (and still using madVR NGU in the same time), I don't have this sound on my speakers, so it's not an electrical interference. The sound is really created by some hardware in my computer (GPU/motherboard/PSU).

Why does changing the audio source on your processor make you think it is not EMI? That does not seem to follow to me.

[pirlouy]

I'm not sure what you call "opt 2", but yes, it's optical, not coaxial. When I use optical, TV is off, I use my monitor using DVI.
Tbh, I already have an external soundcard (using USB, not PCIe like in your examples). I'll test it one day but it's really not a priority right now, since I don't have problems with mpv.
Using the DAC from a monitor, wow, even if I would certainly not hear differences, it would not be an option from me. If it's fine for your friend, that's cool !

I often read about Coil Whine (which I don't have), but I never heard of audio interferences too ! That sucks.
Maybe one day Madshi will have this problem and he'll find the "function" which causes this (even if there's no solution in code)...

[huhn]

the biggest problem is the "fix" for your system could create it for other systems. that'S why there is nothing to fix a GPU is simply not supposed to do that but they sadly do...

the next problem madshi is writing mostly shaders these are not close to the hardware and the (plz correct me if i'm wrong btw.) GPU driver has to translate this shader to code the GPU understands which can be different in the next GPU driver even between GPUs while the result is still 100 % the same.

[pirlouy]

@Asmodian: I meant if GPU created an electrical interference (I call it that way but maybe it has nothing to do with EMI, lack of physics skills and vocabulary), even if I changed source, I would hear noise in my speakers.
But yes, it's possible this "EMI" is caused by the GPU and creates dirty signal inside my computer (not outside, that's what I tried to explain). Still, this dirty signal is created only when madVR is in use. Strange.

@huhn: I don't know exactly how shaders are used by GPU and that's one thing I regret about GPU stress tests. They all seem to use same basic functions, but I'm not sure they use shaders like madvr does. That would be cool if there were GPU benchmarks for known shaders (like upscaling algorithms) with several libraries (openGL, directX, Vulkan).

[dwaleke]

@Asmodian: I meant if GPU created an electrical interference (I call it that way but maybe it has nothing to do with EMI, lack of physics skills and vocabulary), even if I changed source, I would hear noise in my speakers.
But yes, it's possible this "EMI" is caused by the GPU and creates dirty signal inside my computer (not outside, that's what I tried to explain). Still, this dirty signal is created only when madVR is in use. Strange.

If the problem you hear is anything like mine then yes it is caused by the GPU when under load. The "coil whine" sound coming through the speakers only exists while the PC is selected as the source on the AVR.

You will not hear this coil whine through the speakers if you have another source selected.

The only way I have found to eliminate the "coil whine" noise from the speakers is to lift the ground on the PC. The coil whine sound still emanates from the video card itself - just not through the speakers any longer.

I should mention lifting the ground is not safe and could cause electrocution.

[Alexkral]

Probably a question for madshi, but there it goes anyway: Does anyone know any detail about how NGU resamples the chroma? I ask it because in some tests I'm doing with Avisynth, just doubling the resolution always produces worse results than doing the color format conversion, no matter the algorithm used. Maybe he has trained some versions of the network specifically for this?

Actually for a 4:2:2 input the OSD doesn't say a word about chroma height downscaling after supposedly doubling the resolution (?)

[huhn]

there is no special NGU chroma scaler only bilateral and reconstruction are specially designed for chroma.

do you remember to fix the chroma position if you are scaling chroma separately in AVIsynth?

Actually for a 4:2:2 input the OSD doesn't say a word about chroma height downscaling after supposedly doubling the resolution (?)
a doubling algorithm usually can do doubling in one way too nnedi3 was actually design to only do that but people found out that if you run nnedi3 again after turning the image 90° turns it into an image scaler.

a chroma NGU version is planned if i remember correctly to replace reconstruct.

the OSD could just lie and do the downscale anyway.

[Alexkral]

This is what I'm doing:

Clip = FFmpegSource2("YV12.mkv")

Y = ExtractY(clip)
U = ExtractU(clip).LanczosResize(clip.Width, clip.Height)
V = ExtractV(clip).LanczosResize(clip.Width, clip.Height)
CombinePlanes(Y, U, V, planes = "YUV", source_planes = "YYY", pixel_type = "YV24")

Except for something I can't see this should be the same as NGU does, however the PSNR is always worse than just using ConvertToYV24.

a doubling algorithm usually can do doubling in one way too nnedi3 was actually design to only do that but people found out that if you run nnedi3 again after turning the image 90° turns it into an image scaler.

I didn't know that about the design of nnedi3, I think it makes sense that NGU is doing the same.

[huhn]

i don't see you fixing the chroma position.

[Alexkral]

Yes, shifting the chroma half pixel to the left improves things, but still worse than Convert, so I don't think it's the main reason.

[Asmodian]

And down? MPEG2 chroma placement looks like:
https://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd496/asmodian3/YUV-YCbCr-format-with-2-420-sampling-62.png

[huhn]

moving the chroma by 1/2 pixel to the right is enough after scaling.
pre upscale you have to move is by 1/4.

DSMPTE DV-PAL is top left placed so it needs to be moved by half a subpixel to the bottom and right after scaling 1/4...

for some reason i have top right in my head for mpeg2 but that doesn't seem to be correct.

[Alexkral]

And down? MPEG2 chroma placement looks like:

That's what I thought, but the result is worse shifting up or down. I think Extract correctly arranges the lines, I don't know the reason for the horizontal displacement. The input is a PNG converted with Avisynth to YV12 and back to RGB, and then converted to yuv444p with ffmpeg because for this I'm using VQMT that needs y4m. The PSNR is higher with half pixel shift to the left, same before or after scaling.

[nevcairiel]

A chroma-aware scaler would ideally do the move during the scaling operation, which I imagine madVR does well, since better chroma was one of the main selling points back from the very first madVR version. No experience how to properly reproduce that in AviSynth.

[huhn]

it's always 1/2 a pixel 1/4 is nonsense sorry about that.

[Alexkral]

Well, you weren't completely wrong!! I was shifting 1/2 pixel to the original image or the result. It turns out that the way to do it is to shift the extracted planes when scaling as nevcairiel says, and in this case it is 1/4 pixel because they are half the resolution. :p

This is the resulting script, which gives exactly the same result as ConvertToYV24:

Clip = FFmpegSource2("YV12.mkv")

Y = ExtractY(clip)
U = ExtractU(clip).LanczosResize(clip.Width, clip.Height, 0.25, 0, clip.Width / 2, clip.Height / 2)
V = ExtractV(clip).LanczosResize(clip.Width, clip.Height, 0.25, 0, clip.Width / 2, clip.Height / 2)
CombinePlanes(Y, U, V, planes = "YUV", source_planes = "YYY", pixel_type = "YV24")

[huhn]

1/4 luma is 1/2 chroma so yes could be correct.

[Zenvota]

Is the convergence correction feature going to be added to madvr or is it going to be exclusive to the envy now?

[mark0077]

Does anyone know of a way to make madVR custom display modes, use RGB/YCbCr of different bit depths. I asked this over in the madVR / LG thread but maybe someone here knows. Basically in summary, some modes like YCbCr 444 8-bit limited for me is looking best for 2160p23 SDR, but for 2160p23 HDR I will want to set it to RGB 8-bit Full.

Currently when using custom modes, I cannot see any control over these, so I always get RGB 8-bit.

[shimarin]

Which media players with MadVR can navigate DVD images?

[el Filou]

I've never noticed any issue with madVR and DVD menus.
Here it works perfectly under MPC-HC and MediaPortal, with LAV decoder in DXVA2 copyback mode and madVR in windowed mode.

[el Filou]

Has anyone running Windows Insider builds on NVIDIA Pascal+ or Intel Skylake+ by chance tested the new "hardware-accelerated GPU scheduling" (https://www.minitool.com/news/win10-v2004-hardware-accelerated-gpu-scheduling.html) to see if it gives any benefit with madVR?
What this changes exactly is pretty vague and I don't know what sources those websites that explain what is is are using.

[Audionut]

I finally couldn't help myself and got curious on this update.

Need to join MS insider program to get the preview builds. I chose the slow update channel here (semi-safe I guess).
For Nvidia you need to register on the developer site to access the latest preview driver (450.82): https://developer.nvidia.com/directx
Intel drivers auto updated via MS update to latest WDDM 2.7 drivers.

Works like a charm. No proper testing here but I can defiently push things further with madVR.

[composter]

Ever since I upgraded to Windows 10 all my HDR videos that have the MadMeasureHDR measurements file next to it play almost completely black. Any ideas why?
I upgraded to latest beta (113 I think) and done the HDR measure again and no difference.
If I play the video without measurements file it plays fine with its on-the-fly HDR to SDR conversion, but the picture is obviously not ideal that way.

[SamuriHL]

The measurement files haven't worked in quite a few versions. Disable it in the options for now. The real time is better.

[composter]

The measurement files haven't worked in quite a few versions. Disable it in the options for now. The real time is better.

Thanks for the info.

Is real time really better? Just with default settings for all HDR videos? Is there some kind of tuning/optimization recommended?

Also, is it possible yet to play HLG files yet? Even just in SDR mode?

[SamuriHL]

Yes, realtime is really better. But it requires some tweaking. It's going to take a bit of reading and work on your part, but, the results will definitely be better than what the measurement files used to give.

[composter]

Yes, realtime is really better. But it requires some tweaking. It's going to take a bit of reading and work on your part, but, the results will definitely be better than what the measurement files used to give.

Thanks. I'm more than happy to learn if it means best possible quality.

Can you point me in the best direction which documentation I should read to learn optimal MadVR HDR tweaks?

Is it possible to play HLG files in SDR mode with MadVR?

[SamuriHL]

There's no real "documentation" on the latest betas unfortunately. Usually you start out with someone else's settings and tweak them to your liking. I usually recommend Neo-XP's settings to start with. Right now is not the best of times to be jumping in to the beta builds as they are working out some saturation issues. So things are still in flux as to what might be good or bad depending on your display.

As for HLG I know there was talk of that recently. Not entirely sure. I've no HLG sources at all.

[-sTi-]

I am unsure which new OLED TV I should buy with regard to using a PC and madVR as the source for playing movies. Between a LG CX and Sony A8, are there any issues I should be aware of that makes one better than the other?

[VBB]

@-sTi- You should check the OLED section at AVS for ad nauseam "discussions" of LG vs Sony. For PC use, the LG is the clear choice, in my opinion, because it has HDMI 2.1. Right now is not a good time to buy either, with CES announcements just around the corner. Wait a few months and see what's available then.

[Klaus1189]

Or scalpers will buy TVs also :D

[chros]

I wouldn't buy a Sony until they implement TV-led DoVi, currently (many years) they only support player-led LLDV that is crap :)

[VBB]

That's another good reason, yeah.

[zeus0r]

i'm not 100% sure but i think since the latest nvidia driver update (460.89 - gtx1660 super) video playback with mpc-be/madvr stutters really weirdly. i tried different files and every single one is choppy on random scenes/frames.

anybody else noticed this?

// EDIT

just installed the previous drivers and it's still there, damn. never had any stutters before and i didn't change anything. (that i know of)

[VBB]

@zeus0r - Try this: Set "how many video frames shall be presented in advance" to 1 or 3 (madVR settings->rendering->windowed mode and/or exclusive mode) and/or enable VSYNC in the Nvidia drivers.

[zeus0r]

@zeus0r - Try this: Set "how many video frames shall be presented in advance" to 1 or 3 (madVR settings->rendering->windowed mode and/or exclusive mode) and/or enable VSYNC in the Nvidia drivers.

i'll try that, thanks!

// EDIT

lowering "frames presented in advance" doesn't help, still those super weird micro stutters.. but they only occur in fullscreen (FSE 10 bit), windowed everything is fine. any ideas?

[VBB]

FSE shouldn't be used anymore. Do you see the stutter with Windowed FS? EDIT: If I read your answer above correctly, you already said it fixes it. So, yeah, use WFS instead :)

[maxkolonko123]

Hi,

Does anyone know why my AVR is not showing in device list in madvr?

[VBB]

What shows instead? The display?

[maxkolonko123]

yes only display

[VBB]

Ok, and is your display connected to the AVR or connected straight to the PC?

[maxkolonko123]

I have two connections from my pc, one directly to display - TV one to TV trough avr depends if I want to use home theatre or no.

But either way it doesn't shows up devices list.

Just to make it clear about connections so 1: is pc hdmi out to TV hdmi 2: is pc hdmi out to avr hdmi in - > avr hdmi out to TV hdmi in

And the odd thing is sometimes it does shows up but mostly not, as we speak I have it on right trough avr and there is only display in devices list

[Asmodian]

Perhaps the AVR can passthrough the TV's EDID? Have you tried with the TV's HDMI unplugged?

[maxkolonko123]

but how this would happen? i have disabled cec in avr so it shouldnt work as passthrough, and then how avr would send signal to pc when hdmi out from avr is only to tv ?

actually you right, disconnected tv from pc and left just the avr to tv and its showed up : now i have avr in devices list + ? display connected to MRX 720 shall i use same settings my main display in madvr devices?

ok so i went into my avr identification tab - > output device tab and chose there current device connected to receiver LG TV so that should be all fine now

[VBB]

Max, are you using a Yamaha receiver by any chance? I've seen them pass the EDID right through, like Asmodian suggested.

EDIT: I realized it's an Anthem. Not sure if they pass the EDID through or not, but it's possible.

[maxkolonko123]

@VBB

It looks like this is whats happening, once i disconnected hdmi from pc to TV and just left AVR hooked to tv it did showed up in device list in madvr

[Kl3r]

Hi! I'm currently using MPC-BE in its latest stable version. I have a simple 1080p screen (no HDR).

Is it interesting for me to install madVR?

Thank you :)!

[VBB]

Which video card do you have? madVR is very GPU intensive.

[Kl3r]

Which video card do you have? madVR is very GPU intensive.

RTX 2060 (CPU Ryzen 5 2600X).

[VBB]

That's a decent card. Might as well give madVR a try :)

[Ultimathor]

This post was originally posted on AVS in a incorrect thread (https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improving-madvr-hdr-to-sdr-mapping-for-projector.2954506/page-692). I’ve moved this post here as it’s both a computer setup question and general madVR question.


I've been getting madVR up and running on a HTPC with a MSI 3060 TI Ventus 2x 8G OCV graphics card. I can get everything to work in madVR but am a little disappointed with the GPU performance. I need to put everything i medium to avoid micro stuttering. I can play 4K 23p HDR in high with rendering times around 29 ms and all the queues filled up and it looks amazing but there are micro stutters every 30 seconds or so. It helps a bit to remove the black bars but even with that, I have to set everything to medium under scaling to have a watchable quality.

I'm thinking that there might be something wrong with either my graphics card or my HTPC. Sometimes, when I make a change to a setting in madVR and press apply, the computer crashes and reboots. Today, I tried running the MSI Afterburner utility to see if I could gain a bit from OC'ing the card. About 40 pct. into the test, the GPU was 1845 MHz and the Vram was at 7000 MHz and the temperature was 63 degrees centigrade and the computer crashed. I rebooted and tried once more and the same thing happened again at the same progress in the test. So something in my systems is not running as it's supposed to, I think. The HTPC is an old system with a 3.2 GHz i5 Windows 10 Pro clean instal with the latest studio drivers from Nvidias site (472.47). In addition to this, there's the problem I was writing about in an earlier post, where HDR movies send HDR output to my Vertex2 despite the fact that madVR outputs DCI-P3 SDR material. It turns out that Claw has the same problem with his 3080 TI card.

I'm new to madVR so I'm a bit unsure as to how to troubleshoot the situation to determine if anythings faulty or I just have to live with the medium settings. Is this consistent with other 3060 TI owners' experiences?

I appreciate your thoughts.



500 PSU doesn't really mean anything a good 350 watt PSU can provide more power and "better" power than a 500 watt PSU.
so first ask for the PSU in use before he replaces it with anything.
because he has an old CPU he could have a really bad PSU or just a aged PSU.



The PSU I have is an Inter-Tech Energon EPS-550W. Intertech is a German computer case and power supply manufacturer.

I bought the HTPC used and upgraded the graphics card. The guy I bought it from said that he'd upgraded the PSU a couple of years ago. It has only a 6 pin power connector so I had to use a 6 to 8 pin molex converter to connect to the graphics card.

I have read that madVR barely uses the CPU so I figured that it would be OK with an old i5 CPU. Do you think that could play a role?



It you don't actually drop frames, it's a known issue. In the madVR settings, go to rendering -> windowed mode settings, and set 'how many video frames shall be presented in advance' to 1.
Same for fullscreen.



this is a 450 watt PSU sold as a 550. your GPU is only 200.
could be the PSU thanks to age it's not a good one anyway but i clearly have seen worse. i only judge the specification which is may or may not hold true.
the PSU is also a 4 rail PSU so the adapter can overload a rail.

if the i5 is technically working than your PC wouldn't crash speed is hard to judge because there are countless things you can do wit a PC at the same time but for madVR playback using hardware decoder it should be very very bored. if it is a 3000 series (and a mainboard support 3000 series features) or better i5 you should be fine for nearly all setup according to madVR features.



@DocCharky, that was a great suggestions. I can now play 4K HDR 23p movies in high settings without micro stuttering.



As written above, I can now play 4K HDR 23p movies in high settings. However, if I try to pause the movie and move to a different time, the computer crashes and reboots. If I try to change the settings under scaling - algorithm to NGU Sharp very high - the computer crashes. After the reboot, I can play the movie at very high settings and with rendering time of around 30 ms but when I want to move to another time, the computer crashes.

The graphics card is a 3060 TI but I'm not sure if the motherboard supports all features as it's probably 7-8 years old. I only use the HTPC for madVR so there are not a lot of other things running at the same time. The CPU is an i5-4460.

I've ordered a new PSU and will try it out to see if that helps. If not, I'll return it and then I'll have to look elsewhere for the cause of the problem.

[QBhd]

Your PSU is insufficient for your GPU. Four 18A rails may work, but your PSU does not have the proper PCI-e connectors. Using SATA/Molex adapters is never a good idea

QB

[huhn]

you should also check the event log just in case but even if your PSU isn't the issue replace that old unit is not a waist in this case as long as you don't order an really expensive unit or a really bad one.

adapter on a good one rail units is plausible but there are no decent PSU sold anymore without at least one PCIe 6+2 connector. if you can avoid them avoid them.

4 rails with 18 A would be 864 watts but that's the spec on that "PSU".

[Ultimathor]

Your PSU is insufficient for your GPU. Four 18A rails may work, but your PSU does not have the proper PCI-e connectors. Using SATA/Molex adapters is never a good idea

QB

you should also check the event log just in case but even if your PSU isn't the issue replace that old unit is not a waist in this case as long as you don't order an really expensive unit or a really bad one.

adapter on a good one rail units is plausible but there are no decent PSU sold anymore without at least one PCIe 6+2 connector. if you can avoid them avoid them.

4 rails with 18 A would be 864 watts but that's the spec on that "PSU".

Thanks for the input. I've ordered a new setup with a EVGA 750 GQ 80+ PSU (link (https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=210-GQ-0750-V1)). I expect that it will be be sufficient.

[QBhd]

Indeed that should be a good unit... Probably overkill, but a good PSU is never a bad investment.

QB