madVR - General discussion thread

[mclingo]

AMD NAVI looks interesting, wonder if we'll see MADVR performance catch up with NVIDIA cards.

[chros]

AMD NAVI looks interesting, wonder if we'll see MADVR performance catch up with NVIDIA cards.
Wasn't Vega already the same?

[huhn]

no vega has now a good price/performance unlike the planned price for navi.

[chros]

Yep, it's a joke at this price point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoRLmurtxE
I mean they launched cards that:
- similar to 2070, that is almost 1 year (!) old at the same price?! And this price was artificially pumped up by the competition 2 years ago!
- at the same time it draws more power (!), while it's on 7nm? wtf?!

If it was 250 ... Just buy a 3 years old used pascal card for 100-200 with the same performance and (less?) power consumption :D
That's what became of the GPU market in the last 4 years, so don't support these lunatics. :)

What's interesting to me to see that the same (!) company that does really well on 1 front, does this on the other ... That tells you a lot ...

[huhn]

and nvida can say it cost more because these cards are very huge term of size and they have these tensor and rt core and even the demo feature of ray tracing what does AMD add an adaptive sharpen filter time to double the price?
they can't even beat the clock from nvidia with that 7nm note...

i can already get an 2060 for 333 € including a ton of tax.

[nevcairiel]

they can't even beat the clock from nvidia with that 7nm note...

Thats not unexpected. New nodes often clock lower until they have been fully optimized.

[huhn]

the node is a year or better a year in mass production and i understand why zen 2 can't reach 5 GHZ is not like the 7 nm node is been refined half a decade longer then intel panned and that created a specail situation in the CPU market.

with maxwell to pascal we got from 1.4 to 1.9 ghz i understand that this is unusual.

but the issue with navi is that we know it can do 1.9 ghz but there design can't run at that clock constantly so the node can do it but AMD managed to create a GPU that runs at 1.7 ghz and needs more power then a nvidia card that run at 2.0 ghz with an old 16 nm node renamed to 12nm. something doesn't add up here and it can'T be the node if it is supposed to be vastly more efficient at the same clock rate.

[chros]

but the issue with navi is that we know it can do 1.9 ghz but there design can't run at that clock constantly so the node can do it but AMD managed to create a GPU that runs at 1.7 ghz and needs more power then a nvidia card that run at 2.0 ghz with an old 16 nm node renamed to 12nm. something doesn't add up here and it can'T be the node if it is supposed to be vastly more efficient at the same clock rate.
Yes, navi is the new polaris. nvidia is lightyears ahead in terms of technology.

[NoTechi]

Yes, navi is the new polaris. nvidia is lightyears ahead in terms of technology.

Beside future 3D support ... :mad:

NoTechi

[leeperry]

Guys, is there any simple way for a n00b to process SSIM downscaling on pics somehow? Or what's the second best option then?

Asking coz my local stray cats refuge have to drastically downscale pics for their website and they use the crappiest algo ever, even my pristine pics look like junk :o

PS: nvm, ResizeMagic in "sharper" mode looks quite nice

[amayra]

why i can't run MADVR with wine or dxvk ?

[Warner306]

Those with LG OLEDs might find this post interesting. I was reading through the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion thread at AVS Forum and Stacey Spears was explaining how the LG's PC mode works. He owns an LG OLED and claims PC mode processes the image at 8-bits. That might explain why only 8-bits doesn't exhibit banding on LG OLEDs:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3075780-spears-munsil-uhd-hdr-benchmark-disc-discussion-4.html#post58289648

[chros]

Those with LG OLEDs might find this post interesting. I was reading through the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark Disc - Discussion thread at AVS Forum and Stacey Spears was explaining how the LG's PC mode works. He owns an LG OLED and claims PC mode processes the image at 8-bits.
Thanks, but personally I disagree with it and I'd prefer @jk82 's opinion (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2962154-2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk-639.html#post58302344).

That might explain why only 8-bits doesn't exhibit banding on LG OLEDs
But it does! :)
link (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/40-oled-technology-flat-panels-general/2962154-2018-lg-c8-e8-owners-thread-no-price-talk-639.html#post58302464) , link (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1871836#post1871836)

[huhn]

if you are only using 8 bit processing you are "obviously" getting banding even with an 8 bit dithered input signal

[Warner306]

You would take jk82's opinion over one of the world's leading experts on video processing who talks to engineers from manufacturers like LG all the time? Come on. I don't think he has the precise answer to everything, either, but he owns an LG OLED and has run a battery of his own tests on the display.

If Stacey Spears isn't an expert, who is?

Edit: In that post, he says "the video goes 8-bit" in PC mode, so that doesn't necessarily mean all image processing happens at 8-bits, but some compromise has to be made to get 4:4:4 chroma processing on a chip designed for 4:2:2 image processing. Chroma makes up 2/3 of the signal bandwidth and requires an equivalent of amount of space reserved in memory for image processing calculations.

[huhn]

you can do processing with 8 bit and store it in 32 bit you will still get banding and one time is enough to ruin the image.

in PC mode most TV can't do motion interpolation if that is not enough processing saved(well pretty much only memory) i don't know what will and these TV now have smartphone CPUs now they can do a full RGB pipe without any issues what so ever.

there are cortex CPU in them and your smart phone can do simple 32 bit RGB processing...

[Warner306]

Yes, but Stacey says in that thread that most off-the-shelf TV processors are designed for 4:2:2 image processing. It sounds more like subsampling on TV's is a hardware limitation and not a software limitation. They must be cheaper that way.

[huhn]

it's simply not worth the development time.

who does critical work with colors using a TV no one sane the rest doesn't notice banding who uses RGB and sees the difference between RGB and 4:2:2 clearly not the AVG TV user.

BTW it is clearly not a hardware limitation sony can do everything with RGB/4:4:4 and extremely cheap monitors too.

[Warner306]

Maybe Sony uses a more expensive processing chip. I don't have all the answers, either, but the development time argument is somewhat weak compared to other arguments like devoting additional processing to improving the image elsewhere on the same chip and not having anything left for 4:4:4 chroma calculations. That doesn't explain why PC mode can't have perfect 4:4:4 chroma with higher bit depth processing, but I would guess there is not enough space in the processing pipeline of some cheaper processing chips. That is akin to calling TV engineers "lazy" when they are more or less perfecting the identical TV model each year with small upgrades. Why would LG put out a somewhat broken PC mode on purpose?

[j82k]

I wouldn't be surprised if the cause of the increased banding on LG Oleds in pc-mode isn't the 4:4:4 chroma but the low input lag. Because I also noticed increased banding in non-pc mode when using the game preset which gives the same 21ms of input lag as pc-mode does.

I noticed this while playing the game 'Observer' on the nintendo switch which has some very dark scenes with lots of near-black gradients. Going back and forth between the game preset and a non-game preset is almost instant so it's easy to see the difference. Of course all picture processing was disabled when I did this.
There probably is some less accurate processing going on internally to archive lowest possible input lag. If this is the case then it's a shame the TV doesn't offer a 4:4:4 mode with higher input lag and no banding problems.

I'm not saying that what Stacey Spears wrote is wrong but there is more to it than that. There is the absolutely terrible banding in pc mode with 10-bit output but then there is also the only slightly worse banding with 8-bit output, which most people probably just don't notice.

[huhn]

sorry but TV manufacture are not trying to perfect there devices. it's a company they want to make money.

just look at those to 2:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/q70-q70r-qled
https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/samsung/chg70

there is a chance that you could run the TV with board of the monitor and the banding will be gone.

and the monitor screen has less imputlag supports HDR and HFR. so it processing is magnitudes faster and still does better.

or take a look at this LG screen yes LG: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/lg/27uk650-w

beware that rtings banding test is still flawed and only screens with the same input bit deep should be compared.

it's not broken on purpose it just good enough in there eyes.

[chros]

I wouldn't be surprised if the cause of the increased banding on LG Oleds in pc-mode isn't the 4:4:4 chroma but the low input lag. Because I also noticed increased banding in non-pc mode when using the game preset which gives the same 21ms of input lag as pc-mode does.
...
There probably is some less accurate processing going on internally to archive lowest possible input lag. If this is the case then it's a shame the TV doesn't offer a 4:4:4 mode with higher input lag and no banding problems.
Thanks, interesting, I didn't know about this since I never used the normal mode and I don't play games.

You would take jk82's opinion over one of the world's leading experts on video processing who talks to engineers from manufacturers like LG all the time? Come on.

Maybe it's surprising, but I reached the point in my life when I more believe clever guys like Us than experts/specialist/etc. :)

[Warner306]

Maybe it's surprising, but I reached the point in my life when I more believe clever guys like Us than experts/specialist/etc. :)

When you search for his bio, his current job titles are "Sr. Principal Engineer, Software Applications at RED Digital Cinema" and "Chief Color Scientist at SpectraCal."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stacey-spears-611a249

https://www.ravepubs.com/spectracal-launches-new-color-calibration-software-assimilate-scratch/

You should trust a color scientist. I don't know if he still works with the math at this point in his career. But if you read through that thread, you'll find his head is filled with all sorts of useful knowledge on video processing and insider knowledge of the various TVs, projectors and Blu-ray players.

In that particular thread, he sent one user's concerns about Dolby Vision on Apple TV in an email addressed to Dolby. I've also seen posts on other forums where he is talking to people who are shooting current TV shows and movies, telling them how to use their equipment. I would consider him to be a reliable expert.

[chros]

I would consider him to be a reliable expert.
OK, cheers.

[el Filou]

Now that madVR will be a commercial product https://www.madvrlabs.llc/ I hope to see professional reviewers compare its dynamic tonemapping to the ones in various displays, or even compare HDR10 with madVR to the Dolby Vision version on some Blu-rays. :)I just wonder why they don't record in D65 in the first place huh? Even with high bit-depth 3DLUT's, is 5200K>6500K conversion lossless?
I've seen it on EU / US & korean videos, must be a reason to it. I guess they use digital cameras with REC.709 gamut so why "daylight" 5200K :confused:That number you see on the camera monitor is the real colour temperature of the lighting used for the scene. For another recent example that springs to my mind, if you watch the GoT documentary 'The Last Watch' you'll see 3200K on their monitors for the torch-lighting night scenes.
If they 'shot at D6500' for this particular environment the colours would be all wrong like when you set your TV to standard/cold temp, so it's better to record with the real scene lighting as reference. Mastering is never lossless anyway.

[Warner306]

Now that madVR will be a commercial product https://www.madvrlabs.llc/ I hope to see professional reviewers compare its dynamic tonemapping to the ones in various displays, or even compare HDR10 with madVR to the Dolby Vision version on some Blu-rays. :)

It should be no contest for Dolby Vision. You can do trim passes in Dolby Vision at different levels of peak brightness where the content is tone mapped by a colorist to look appropriate at different brightness levels. So the tone mapping should be far more precise than dynamic HDR10 and done per frame. The science on how to apply gamut mapping used by madVR is also based similar logic recommended by Dolby.

The newest Dolby Vision standard is trying to become a preferred format over HLG for combined HDR/SDR projects by including trim passes for SDR grades. Dolby has an automatic HDR to SDR algorithm that can be applied to the HDR version and hand-tweaked by a colorist to make each scene look as desired. The resulting SDR grade is supposed to look better and not worse than starting in SDR to begin with. If projectors supported Dolby Vision, those with projectors might actually prefer this HDR to SDR grade over the HDR grade.

https://www.mysterybox.us/blog/2019/3/18/dolby-vision-and-independent-filmmaking-e75yg

[Shiroe]

Is there a difference between using madVR on Windows 10 and Windows 8.1?

Using LAV Filters Megamix's mid-tier (NGU medium) preset on Windows 10 to watch anime gave me 60 FPS. I switched to Windows 8.1 for reasons, and now the same preset gives me 30 FPS. Just in case, I am also using an older NVIDIA driver on Windows 8.1, one that predates RTX graphics, also for reasons.

Also, which RTX graphics cards are sufficient for watching 720p and 1080p anime on a Full HD, QHD, or 4K monitor using the madVR settings found here (https://anime.my/tutorials/madvr/) with some minor adjustments, such as higher values for sharpen edges, thin edges, and AdaptiveSharpen and without any frame drops during playback, when seeking, and when entering or exiting fullscreen, etcetera? And which AMD graphics cards are sufficient? Ignoring prices, is NVIDIA or AMD better in terms of support and performance?

[huhn]

windows 8 can't do WFS 10 bit that's the major difference for now.

if you ignore prices nothing beats nvidia.
polaris performance bad with NGU. navi is unknown and for some reason vega user don't share number and only tell you madVR works with it...

[huhn]

i'm currently running 18941 WDDM 2.6 with 431.36 nvidia driver and i have no banding.
can someone confirm if stable 1903 version is fixed?

[ryrynz]

I asked an Nvidia employee online about it a few days back and they said there was no update for this issue as of yet and they're still working with MS. So, no not fixed yet.

[mclingo]

ive had my OLED TV for nearly 5 years now, I've decided I want to teach myself how to calibrate and do it on both my TV's, but on the cheap. Whats the cheapest unit I can get new or used that anyone can recommend for an OLED calibration?

[chros]

i1Display Pro (https://www.amazon.co.uk/X-Rite-i1Display-Pro-Black-silver/dp/B0055MBQOW) (I think you can buy used one as well if it's not 5 years old, but recent).

[mclingo]

i1Display Pro (https://www.amazon.co.uk/X-Rite-i1Display-Pro-Black-silver/dp/B0055MBQOW) (I think you can buy used one as well if it's not 5 years old, but recent).

Thanks, i'll have a look, is this any good just to get me going, I can upgrade to something better later when I have more cash.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/X-Rite-Eye-On-Display-LT-Monitor-Colour-Correction/153469866414?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

[chros]

No, you have to search for exactly that name (https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=i1+display+pro&_sop=15).

[mclingo]

I mean will the cheaper one do for now, will it give me a basic color calibration, I cant afford the display pro one right now.

[huhn]

never heard of that cheap meter. don't cheap out and buy twice.
i1d3 has a lot of correction this cheap one clearly not.
a color munki is an option but is really slow on dark patches.

[e-t172]

Whats the cheapest unit I can get new or used that anyone can recommend for an OLED calibration?

The reference is the i1 Display Pro as mentioned above. However, the cheaper ColorMunki Display has the same hardware and should produce the same results (verified by comparing results from my i1 Display Pro to a friend's ColorMunki). The only difference is the software included (which doesn't matter as you likely won't use it) and, most importantly, the ColorMunki has been deliberately crippled to be slower at making measurements. Bottom line: if you're impatient, go for the i1 Display Pro. If you're patient, go for the ColorMunki Display.

[Asmodian]

And by patient we mean hours and hours for a full patch set. Even with an i1Display Pro it takes me 3 to 5 hours to do a full calibration (3500+ patches), I have never used a ColorMunki but slower would be painful!

[mclingo]

ok thanks all

[SamuriHL]

I need to get me one of these, as well. I'd like to properly calibrate both my C8 and my Panny plasma one of these days. I'll need to save some pennies but it's going on my Christmas list. LOL

[SamuriHL]

This isn't really "madvr" related but I do think this is a good thing for the average consumer.

https://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/uhd-alliance/filmmaker-mode/4K/hdr/LG/Vizio/Panasonic/uhd-alliance-announces-filmmaker-mode-for-more-accurate-picture-on-4k-tvs/44731

Not to mention, and the reason I bring it up here, I'm IMPRESSED that the industry finally did something as a unified front! LOL This could be interesting to watch.

[huhn]

madVR could trigger it.

but... even remotely believing in this a feature scares me and pretty much every not terrible Tv manufacture does something like this with cinema or real cinema.

[SamuriHL]

Well, I think this is more than just cinema or real cinema mode cause those still sometimes enable all the horrible post processing that we mostly hate. I'm not suggesting advanced users need or want it but for the average viewer, this is probably going to end up being a good thing.

[Warner306]

I hope the factory color calibration is better than the "accurate" picture presets of most displays. But I can't see display manufacturers putting that much effort into getting the RGB high/low calibrated from the factory. My Samsung TV was a little over Delta E ~1 when it was first turned on. It is possible.

[SamuriHL]

I tend to agree with you there. I don't think this is meant for the madvr crowd. I think it's meant for the average consumer who bitches about the soap opera effect or wicked stuttering in panning shots. I have real doubts that it'll turn a thousand dollar 55" vizio into a mastering display. Lol

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Warner306]

Getting the grayscale close to Delta E ~1 without having the Warm color temperature look too yellow in the whites would likely be good enough. That is what I was referring to. I know many don't like the Warm color presets on many TVs because the colors look too warm. Only expensive TVs seem to put any care into the factory calibration.

[Asmodian]

It has actually improved really a lot in the last several years, probably due to white LEDs getting much better. I measured shockingly high dE values on those early LED lit LCDs, even many of the CCFL backlights had gamuts much smaller than BT.709. Above 15 dE was very common along with whites that measured 8000-9000K or higher, but were also way off the black body curve. You couldn't calibrate that to anything usable.

Now even very cheap displays' dE values tend to stay below ~10 or so with pretty good BT.709 gamuts, though my recent sample size isn't too large. It is still not really possible to get a good calibration on them but at least the picture is halfway decent out of the box. :p

I could see this initiative being a reasonable improvement, at least there is a actual target and the basic hardware should be capable. I think a lot of TVs have been tuned by focus groups of normal consumers, who tended to like brighter and more saturated colors when asked which image looks better.

[SamuriHL]

I think that's pretty accurate. At least with this being driven by directors like nolan and others in the industry it should be closer to what they envision for their films. It's not likely going to be perfect and certainly won't compete with a properly calibrated screen but even if it gets home viewing a little closer to the cinema ideal it's really a good thing imo.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[mclingo]

I dont like how Nolan films or masters near black stuff, for example, the star fields in interstellar were grey and lost all their impact, you end up having to crush his movies slightly at 5IRE I find.

so.. I got one of these on ebay, it was so cheap (£9 I thought I could get it to familiarize myself with DISPLAY CAL and buy something better at a later date, assuming I can get it to work with win10, if not I can host a win7 VM.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ColorVision-S2E100-Spyder2-Express/dp/B000ES4PYU

any thoughts on the spyder2?

[huhn]

could be completely useless now.

the first mater that doesn't drift hard was the i1d3 and the spyder 2 is many many years older it could be 12 years old.

if you grab the firmware from the installer it will work with displaycal but this thing is not to be trusted anymore.